Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2000

Vol. 164 No. 15

Prisons Service: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann notes with approbation and approval the signal success of the current administration in its prison building and refurbishment programme over the past three years and looks forward to the implementation of the prisoner rehabilitation programmes being developed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform which can now take place in the orderly prison environment which he has achieved.

I welcome the Minister and compliment him on his very successful and co-ordinated campaign to deal with prison issues since his appointment a little more than three years ago. Arising from his commitment to prison reform, there has been an increase in the number of prison spaces. This was a commitment given by him when in Opposition prior to the previous election. He gave a clear and unequivocal commitment at that stage to tackle the issue of prison spaces as well as the conditions in prisons among other matters. When he was appointed Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, he set about tackling those issues in a constructive and co-ordinated manner. The total number in custody stands at 2,965 and they come from various walks of life.

It is also important to recognise the Minister's success in tackling crime rates. Crime has decreased almost annually since the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, took on the portfolio of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Reported crime.

Senator O'Donovan without interruption.

I wanted to clarify the point.

Senator Connor will have an opportunity when making his contribution to make any point he wishes.

In addition to providing extra prison spaces, the Minister has significantly improved conditions in prisons. He has refurbished completely Portlaoise Prison and made it a state of the art prison which any country in Europe would be proud to have. Considerable work has also been carried out on the prison in Mountjoy and in other prisons the length and breadth of Ireland.

When the Minister came into office, serious problems existed in the operation of the prison system. Morale was low among prison officers and inmates. The Minister has, in the past two to three years, set up several programmes, such as rehabilitation programmes. One of the core concepts of prison is that a prisoner would be rehabilitated and released back into society to continue a normal life having served his or her prison sentence. This programme has been very successful.

One of the prime objectives of the Prisons Service is to put in place an enhanced range of rehabilitative measures available to all prisoners. It is anticipated that completion of the prison building and refurbishment programme will greatly facilitate the provision of additional rehabilitative programmes for prisoners and the enhancement of existing programmes over the next few years. In this regard I must compliment the Minister. For the first time in recent penal history he tackled this matter head on. Certain programmes, such as probation and welfare services, psychology services, work and training programmes are all being put in place. They are a great benefit.

The provision of psychiatric care or counselling by a clinical psychologist for prisoners, no matter what offence they committed, was unheard of 20 years ago. Under the Minister's programme, and I know this from first hand experience of Cork prison, a constant flow of service is provided by clinical psychologists in most prisons. These people can help prisoners get over the problem for which they were convicted and help them analyse and come to grips with their difficulties. In many instances our prisoners came from difficult backgrounds; they came from backgrounds of abuse and crime.

It is an alarming fact, and the Taoiseach referred to this last year, that there are children and teenagers on the streets of Dublin whose parents and grandparents were involved in a cycle of crime. They inherited and were born into a system of crime. Unfortunately, the Bugsy Malone gangs of the 1950s and 1960s are still emerging two or three generations later. In many instances these young people need help, guidance and education, particularly anyone who started committing crimes, some of it petty crimes, as young as ten years of age. The Minister is going in the right direction in some of the programmes he outlined. We also have the connect project, prison education services and drug addiction programmes.

One of the central problems of prison life, particularly in Dublin and to a lesser extent in other cities like Cork and Limerick, is the number of people imprisoned for drug related crime. In this regard the Minister has several programmes in place. This is welcome and is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, many people addicted to serious drugs such as heroin need medical attention and services to help them kick their habit and resume a normal life. The Minister's programme for prison reform and extra prison spaces is moving in that direction.

There are also programmes for sex offenders. Whether we like it or not we must face the fact that the number of people imprisoned for sex offences has increased dramatically over the past 20 years. Most of these crimes are serious sex offences against young people. Like the vicious cycle of crime, many of the people convicted of these crimes were in positions of authority, such as teachers, clergy or swimming coaches. In many instances they had a background of abuse. They grew up with abuse and they systematically passed this on to young offenders.

We heard about the concept of the revolving door a number of years ago. People were being incarcerated but were released 12 hours later. The last Government and successive Governments talked about this a lot. Since the Minister came to office he has tackled the concept of the revolving door. Now anyone given a prison sentence by a District Court or a higher one must serve their time.

The Minister gave a commitment on taking up office to tackle serious crime problems, particularly drug related problems. In his Criminal Justice Bill, or in any one of the several Bills he introduced in this House, he has made it clear to criminals that crime no longer pays. There are minimum statutory sentences for serious drug offences. This is the right thing to do. He has sent the message to the drug lords that anyone found peddling drugs worth more than £10,000, whether it is cocaine, ecstasy, marijuana or hash, will run the risk of receiving a minimum sentence of ten years which must be served in full.

We hear a lot of discontent and a barrage of abuse against the Minister for the way he operates the Prisons Service. He has reformed it but his work is ongoing. It will probably be five years before we see the fruits of his labour with regard to the reform of various prisons around the country and the setting up of new prisons, a women's prison and a place of detention for sex offenders.

I compliment the Minister on the excellent reform and work he has carried out on the Prisons Service. His contribution should be recognised widely. He has spent a lot of money on the provision of extra prison spaces and on all of the back-up services, such as the psychological service, treatment for young offenders, early release programmes and prison education. All these measures are directly attributable to the Minister's vision and foresight in tackling this difficult area. He has done an excellent job. A lot of what he spoke about in Opposition six years ago has been put in place. Actions speak louder than words. The Minister has delivered and he continues to deliver in a very positive manner on issues such as prison reform and extra prison spaces.

I commend this motion to the House and I thank the Minister for coming here and taking this motion on board.

I second the motion. I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, to the House. He is a very familiar face here. I have been here for a short period and I can say that he has been here more often than any other Minister because of the high level of legislation that has been introduced since he assumed office in 1997.

I want to begin where my colleague finished. When the Minister was in Opposition he highlighted the difficulties being experienced in the Prisons Service for many years. When he got the opportunity and assumed office he tackled these problems in a very comprehensive manner.

Private Members' time is precious. It is good to have an opportunity to raise issues. However, I am at a loss to see how a political party could use this time to criticise a Minister, particularly this Minister about the Prisons Service when we have seen so many advances and changes for the better over the past three years. That is the prerogative of the party. I have no problem with that but I just wanted to make a point.

There have been 1,207 new prison spaces made available. The Minister is not finished yet because a further 700 prison spaces will become available next year. That represents a 50% increase in prison spaces. In 1997, when the Minister assumed office there were only 2,200 prison spaces available. A new prison has been built in the midlands, in Portlaoise, and Mountjoy Prison will be comprehensively refurbished in the coming year. That is the first time any refurbishment has been carried out at the prison in over 200 years.

Crime rates have fallen by 21% since 1997. Opposition speakers may say that figures for reported crime are down, but the same criteria are in place now as during the term of the previous Minister, Deputy Owen.

Senator O'Donovan referred to the revolving door syndrome which was a serious problem before 1997. Prisoners were released due to the lack of prison places for them and after being released they freely and knowingly committed crimes. They were simply being freed because there was no space for them in prison and that was not a proper way of doing business. In the past the persistently high level of overcrowding in committal institutions in the Dublin area – Mountjoy Prison and St. Patrick's Institution – resulted in the granting of release to some offenders who would not normally be considered suitable for such release. There has been a significant reduction in the proportion of temporary release of the total numbers serving sentences, from 15.8% in September 1997 to 6.6% in September 2000. The actual number on temporary release has fallen from a daily average of 463 in September 1997 to 204 in September 2000. By any stretch of the imagination, that is a huge improvement on the situation that pertained in 1997.

The Minister has created many new initiatives and has expanded and improved upon many of the old initiatives, including rehabilitation programmes. He has approved 40 new personnel for the probation and welfare service. The psychological service has been improved and enhanced, and the new connect project has been initiated by him. The prison education service has improved considerably and we have seen advances in counselling services for drug addiction. The issue of sex offences is being treated seriously with the focus on proper rehabilitation to ensure that offenders do not reoffend once they are released from prison.

The new alternatives to violence project is in place. In addition, new prison rules have been drafted to replace the 1937 prison rules and almost 30 other legal instruments have been scrutinised and revised by a senior management group, including senior operational managers from headquarters and prison governors. It is the first time this has been done and the Minister is to be complimented for that. The draft rules have been submitted to the Office of the Attorney General for legal advice and final drafting. The new draft rules are more in keeping with the European prison rules which are the European version of the United Nations' standard minimum rules for the treatment of prisoners.

Since 1997, we have seen tremendous advances and improvements in the area of prisons and prison places. The Minister is to be highly commended for his efforts. Before assuming office he made his intentions very clear. Since taking office he has missed no opportunity to ensure that we have a vastly different prison service in place compared to the pre-1997 period. I praise him for his efforts and have pleasure in seconding the motion before the House.

The wording of this motion is one of the most self-serving, self-congratulatory and gratuitous pieces of nonsense to have come before the House for a long time. The Minister makes great play of the fact that since assuming office he has put in place such a large programme for new prison places. However, the Minister inherited 90% of the new prison places which were either there or at such an advanced stage that they came on stream shortly after he took office. The only new project he can truly lay claim to is the one at Portlaoise, and nothing else.

I am not convinced that providing new prison places is the way to combat crime. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Physical conditions in the Irish prison system are among the worst in Europe, notwithstanding the modernisation programme of the last five years. I want to compliment not only the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Owen, for the rehabilitation and new prison programme, but also the former Minister, Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, who initiated the Castlerea prison project in my own constituency.

Added to the shortcomings of the programme of rehabilitation and rebuilding, the educational rehabilitation services in our prisons remain totally underdeveloped and in many areas there have been no modernising developments at all. It can be said that, by and large, no good use is found for a prisoner's time while he or she is incarcerated. The system is designed for punishment which seems to have the highest priority. Because prisoners at the commencement of their prison terms never know how much of their sentences they will serve, they just mark time for the duration of their detention. Sadly, many who are given nothing better to do, spend their time harbouring a greater level of resentment and anger against a system they see as treating them unfairly. They leave prison even more damaged than before. This is the main reason so many of them reoffend and thus return to jail very often soon afterwards.

The Minister has made great play, up and down the country and in these Houses, about the number of jail places he has provided. Everything he states on prison policy, however, shows his narrow thinking that prison and punishment are central to the way in which he counteracts crime. He seems hooked on the false notion that the more people one puts in jail, the more the level of crime will decrease. This, of course, is the worst kind of 1930s reactionary nonsense. All the evidence, both from empirical research and from experience, shows that if the number of prison places increased by 25% it would not even achieve a 1% reduction in the crime rate.

The Minister has never shown any vision of alternatives to prison. Because of what the statutes dictate, judges have just two alternatives when dealing with offenders – fines and custodial sentences. Sanctions, including community service, are rare and very limited. Home detention enforced by electronic monitoring is unknown in our sentencing policy. Weekend prison as an option for people who are working has never been thought about in the Irish system. There are many other options and good ideas that cannot see the light of day because of the Minister's vision of more and more prisons, purely for punishment and stigmatising purposes.

We all agree that a large cohort of the prison population can only be dealt with by taking their freedom away for whatever length of time is appropriate. Every society has this problem, but this society fails by having poor and often non-existent rehabilitative programmes that would prepare serious offenders for their return to gainful employment in the community. That rarely happens here. As a result we have one of the worst reoffending records in the world. Prison sentencing policy under the current regime is seen as imposing punishment and stigmatising only. It is never seen as an opportunity to prepare offenders to be reintroduced to a normal life afterwards. There is no ethos of treatment in the prison system, notwithstanding the very complex psychological and medical needs of many prisoners related to their pre-prison health history, drug abuse and alcohol addiction.

Probably the greatest scandal in the prison system is the proliferation of drug abuse, especially in Mountjoy Prison. It is shocking that many prisoners enter the prison with no history of drug use, let alone abuse, and leave as drug addicts. This is absolutely disgraceful. Almost 60% of the current prison population are serving return sentences. This is outrageous and it is directly related to the lack of rehabilitation and support programmes.

In a report he prepared for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and published in June 1997, the year the Minister took office, Dr. Paul O'Mahony stated that of a sample of prisoners in Mountjoy Prison, 77% had spent time in St. Patrick's Institution for juvenile offenders, a majority had spent time in an open prison, one in three were of the view that it was likely they would return to prison and the annual statistics of prisons and places of detention for 1994 – there may be more up-to-date figures available – showed that 57% of those committed to prison in that year had served a previous prison sentence. That is at the core of the problem in the prison system.

Then there is the scandal of the high number of people sent to jail for the non-payment of fines. I do not have up-to-date figures, but I am aware that from time to time the Minister has provided information on this category of prisoner in the Dáil. He may give us the figure, but I understand that there are at least 1,500 prisoners in the prison system today for the non-payment of fines. In the first instance, a financial penalty was imposed purely because their offence did not merit a prison sentence. Some have committed only the most minor of offences. In the majority of cases default was due to inability to pay and our only response was to place them in prison at a cost many times the value of the fine. It costs £150 per day to keep a prisoner incarcerated. This shows how ridiculous and costly it is when a person serves a sentence for the non-payment of a fine. It may cost the State tens of thousands of pounds to keep a person in prison for the non-payment of a fine of £100.

There are many other points I would like to make, but time is very limited. On a subject such as this eight minutes is not enough. If I had been present for the Order of Business I would have argued that we should, at least, have 12 minutes—

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is already over time.

I am aware of that, but I know that you will allow me to make the following concluding remark. It is a criticism that I do not have enough time to develop my points a little more. I hope the few points I have made indicate that the prison system is in chaos. This kind of self-congratulatory and self-serving motion is about the last thing which even remotely describes what is happening in the prison system.

I welcome the Minister, of whom I am very proud and with whom I served in the other House for a number of years during which I served as whip to the justice committee. The initiatives and programmes of action he has introduced since taking office are testimony to his commitment to solving the crime problem. I am baffled – if that is the correct word to use—

—by the amendment to the motion. It seeks to convey the impression that the Minister is so obsessed with the prisons building programme that he has done absolutely nothing else during his term of office in the belief that extra prison places will solve the crime problem. Nothing could be further from the truth. The amendment is, therefore, naive.

My esteemed colleague, Senator Connor, has spoken out against custodial sentences. I recall that in the past he voted against Castlerea Prison—

I did not.

—and subsequently was not endorsed by the people because of it. I suffered a similar fate.

Given what has happened in Castlerea since the prison was provided, Fianna Fáil has nothing to be proud of. It is the only electoral area in which it failed to have a county councillor elected in the last local elections purely and simply because of the prison.

The Senator quoted the number of persons incarcerated at any one time for the non-payment of a fine. To my knowledge, the figure is as low as 1%. I do not understand his argument—

It is the figure quoted in the Dáil one year ago.

I do not know from where the figure has been taken. It is baffling.

From the Minister's mouth.

When the Minister accepted his portfolio – it was a most unenviable task – he inherited a prison system that was in chaos. Their physical structure was Dickensian. There was overcrowding, a revolving door system and temporary release without justification. I am taking a shot not just at his predecessor, but at a number of his predecessors. Given the level of crime in the community, the deep rooted cynicism among the public at the ease with which hardened criminals could obtain bail due to the revolving door system and the extent of early releases which had led to it losing confidence in the ability of the Government to deal with crime, in opposition the Minister came to one clear conclusion, that the vital ingredient was to lift marauding individuals and gangs out of society, eliminate the revolving door system, minimise temporary release and create the environment within our prisons where meaningful and co-ordinated rehabilitation programmes could be put in place.

It was obvious from the start of his Ministry that he would not expend massive amounts of taxpayers' money on rehabilitation programmes for prisoners who would be in one day and out the next. That would have been ludicrous, naive in the extreme and irresponsible on the part of the Minister. He chose a clear and definitive starting point, which was to ensure that the revolving door system would go, the unjustified and unstructured temporary release system would be minimised and that the pre-Dickensian conditions in most of our prisons, apart from the first purpose built facility at Wheatfield Prison, would be improved. Existing conditions could not facilitate rehabilitation programmes.

The Minister wisely chose to implement a significant prison building programme while refurbishing and modernising existing prisons. To decent, law abiding and fair minded people, refurbishment and modernisation along with the provision of purpose built units was the humane way of trying to structure our prison system in a way that would facilitate the rehabilitation programmes he had in mind. Rather than being shortsighted, the contrary was the case.

Nobody claims that places of detention and prisons are the answer to all our ills. The Minister does not claim it. However, he is saying it is the starting point. Ordinary people who recall the 1980s and 1990s will be quick to describe what they had to go through. They asked the politicians who called to their front doors why a person could get bail when it was known in the community that he was committing further crimes while on bail in the sure knowledge that he would only get concurrent sentences if and when he was convicted by the court. There was great cynicism about that. There was also great cynicism about the revolving door whereby individuals returned to a neighbourhood and scoffed at their victims.

The Minister, then an Opposition Deputy, saw that and decided the only way to deal with it was to create the proper physical structures and environment in which we could ensure that the punishment fitted the crime and that when a criminal was sentenced, he would serve the sentence. The usual conditions could be attached but the sentence would not be served in a revolving door and temporary release environment.

The other side of the House might believe I am suggesting that the Minister has done nothing but build prisons over the last three and half years. Nothing could be further from the truth. His priority has been to start with the recidivist criminal and remove him from society if there is to be any hope of rehabilitating him. One cannot rehabilitate him when he is out on the street, if he will go in one door and out the next or if he will be given temporary release on an unstructured basis.

Contemporaneously with the prison building and refurbishment programme, there was a significant development of community based programmes in crime prevention and an increase of over 70% in the allocation for the Probation and Welfare Service. This was designed to ensure a realistic, properly prioritised programme was put in place. I warmly commend the Minister for the manner in which he has approached his task.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:

"condemns the shortsighted policy of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in imagining that the notion of criminal and anti-social activity can be countered by merely increasing the number of prison places.".

I put this amendment down because I was horrified when I saw the smug, ghastly, self-congratulatory tone of the motion which "notes with approval" the building of prisons and so forth. It is shameful, the type of thing that can only emanate from people who have not thought about the problem. I wish to tidy the amendment up grammatically. It should read:

That Seanad Éireann condemns the shortsighted policy of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in imagining that criminal and anti-social activity can be countered merely by increasing the number of prison places.

I am strongly of that opinion. If one looks at any analysis of the concentration of crime levels, it becomes clear that they exist in particular locations and for particular reasons of social and economic deprivation. There is virtually no investment in many of these areas while we prate about the wonders of building prisons.

It is clearly a class system and I am amazed that the so-called republican party, which regularly refers to the objective of cherishing the children of the nation equally, can gloat at the creation of so many prison places. Tomorrow will be the 100th anniversary of the death of Oscar Wilde when we will be treated to another smug feast of incorporating that abandoned and harassed individual into our self-congratulatory society. It is appropriate to quote part of The Ballad of Reading Gaol at this juncture:

The vilest deeds like poison weeds

Bloom well in prison-air:

It is only what is good in Man

That wastes and withers there:

Pale Anguish keeps the heavy gate,

And the Warder is Despair

Is that not true? We know that people go into the prisons of which we are so proud clean and free of drugs and come out as drug addicts. What could more effectively illustrate what Oscar Wilde had to say?

Recidivism was mentioned by my distinguished colleague on the Fianna Fáil benches. Why does Ireland have the highest rate of recidivism in Europe? Why do we have such rotten treatment of prisoners? We have physical spaces but there is virtually nothing rehabilitative. We do not have any concept of restorative justice, no psychiatric services and no facilities in which we can take people off drugs. That is not something on which this House should compliment itself. It is morally revolting that anybody should be so insensitive as to think it appropriate.

I have been briefed on this issue by the Irish Penal Reform Trust and wish to put some of the trust's points on the record. At least it knows what it is talking about. First, the trust calls for an end to the prison building programme. Second, it seeks the appointment of a full-time prisons inspector. Why do we not have such an inspector? Third, there should not be prison sentences for fine defaulters. Senator Connor dealt with this point. We are paying enormous amounts of money to deal with something which is, in many cases, scarcely a criminal activity.

Listening to Senator Fitzgerald one would think this nonsense about zero tolerance had done something. Every weekend, however, people are shot to death in the streets of this and other cities. What has been done about it? Zero tolerance does not appear to work. The trust's fourth point is the introduction of drugs courts. Fifth, there should be improved induction training for prison officers and, sixth, restorative justice should be part of any new crime policy. This has been shown to work in other European countries, particularly with regard to young people, whose behaviour patterns can be changed. They must confront the people against whom they committed their crimes. They must accept blame and do something positive and useful in practical terms to make amends.

There is no doubt that imprisonment is class based. Look at the tribunals. One can get away with white collar crime. There is only one class of people imprisoned in this so-called republic. Imprisonment is also socially divisive. It has long been proven that it is damaging to individuals and does not reduce crime. Crime must be seen in its social context and in terms of the communities from which it springs. Factors such as marginalisation, poverty and other disadvantages must be seen as part of the overall equation.

In the interests of social justice, rehabilitation for those in prison must be properly resourced. Most of our prison population is in the 16 years to 25 years age group. These are people who can be helped because the pattern has not yet necessarily been fixed. There is also the issue of drug addiction. A study carried out in Mountjoy Prison in 1997 found that half the prison population had used heroin during their current sentences. To a certain extent a "wink and nod" policy is in operation because the lid is kept on the general situation which obtains vis-à-vis heroin addiction. In a more recent study carried out by the department of community health and general practice, of nine prisons surveyed 21% of inmates claimed to have first started injecting while in prison. Of these, 58% shared drug injecting equipment such as needles, syringes, spoons and filters. Between 1990 and 1997, 12 prisoners died in prison as a result of overdoses. This is what is happening in the institutions of which Members on the Government side are so proud.

That is why we need more prison spaces.

More spaces so even more people can die in prison. That is a wonderful Swiftian comment on the part of Senator Fitzgerald and I invite him to consider what he said in a more calm fashion.

The draft plan on drug misuse and drug treatment in the prison system has not been fully implemented. If consultation is to be credible, it must be followed by decisive action. Lack of funding is not a sufficient reason for doing nothing, bearing in mind that £9 million has been allocated for the building of prisons. Why not spend some of that money where it can do some good? Genuine rehabilitation needs well structured and properly financed medical and probation services and we do not have these.

Prison health care is substandard. A report published by the Helsinki Institute for Crime Prevention and Control in 1992 showed that the proportion of the Irish prison budget dedicated to health care was the lowest of the 27 Council of Europe states. That is something of which Fianna Fáil and the Minister are proud. The proportion for Ireland stood at 1%, compared to 6% for England and Wales and 9% for Scotland. The ratio to custodial staff was also the lowest, 0.3% compared to 12% in the United Kingdom. Up-to-date statistics from the Irish Prisons Service on health spending are not available but, given the increase in our prison population, the position is likely to have worsened. We spend huge amounts on building prisons but do nothing to improve the services that will assist the unfortunate people incarcerated in them.

At present there are no full-time doctors in the Irish Prisons Service. Health care services are provided on a sessional basis by local general practitioners whose work does not co-ordinate in any rational way. In other words, they have not drawn up profiles on the prisoners they treat. Psychiatric services are virtually non-existent. There are no psychiatric beds in Mountjoy Prison and it is on this that the Members opposite have the unmitigated gall to compliment themselves. Resources should be made available immediately to provide these services.

There are no proper measures in place in our prisons to deal with drug misuse. The practices that have been found to be effective outside prisons should be implemented in those prisons. Cloverhill remand assessment centre has to handle a large number of prisoners in the early stages of withdrawal from drugs and alcohol. It has been found in other countries that prisoners on remand suffer from high levels of mental illness and are at a disproportionate risk of suicide. It is crucial that measures are put in place form the start to deal with what are entirely predictable problems.

There is also a need for much greater investment in the probation services if we are going to look after those who are unfortunate enough to be incarcerated in prison. In addition, the united code of conduct for law enforcement officials must be implemented. Article 6 of that code states that all prison personnel share a duty of care for those in custody. This means that the status of prison medical orderlies, with only six weeks training, needs to be abolished and nurses need to take their rightful place in the system.

I understand that I have a seconder for my amendment. I cannot imagine how any decent person could stand over the volume of self-congratulatory hot air that has emanated from the other side of the House. The perception of Members opposite does not reflect the reality of the situation I have outlined.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Will the Senator confirm that the words "the notion of" are being deleted from the amendment?

Yes, I would like those words to be deleted. In addition, I wish to remove the term "by merely increasing" and substitute "merely by increasing".

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is the amendment to the amendment agreed?

I am not sure. This is a highly unusual step and given that the Senator does not have a seconder in the Chamber for his amendment, he should give notice of the change in writing.

I am seconding the amendment.

I do not accept the amendment to the amendment.

That is fine. It is merely a technical amendment.

I am sorry, Senator Norris, rules are rules.

For the record, I formally second the amendment.

I will not withdraw the changes unless there is a ruling from the Chair. If Senator Tom Fitzgerald wants to vote on the matter we will do so.

I wish to ask the Chair if we are in a position to change our motion. The answer is that we cannot. Neither can Senator Norris change—

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair can accept changes to both the—

I do not mind, let us have a vote on it. Vótáil.

I would be prepared to be more helpful if it was not for all the hot air that has emanated from the empty seats on that side of the House this evening.

The only reason my seat was empty was that I was on my feet speaking. It is notable that the person on the Government side who proposed the motion did not see fit to attend the debate.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Norris, please.

I ask Senator Norris to withdraw that last remark because the person who proposed the motion spoke in the House tonight.

On this motion?

I unreservedly withdraw what I said.

The Senator could withdraw many of his other comments.

Senator Cregan should quit while he is ahead.

Senator Norris questioned the decency of Members on this side of the House and he has no right to do so.

I have every right.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are anxious to debate the motion and the amendment. The Chair has a certain discretion in this matter. Will the House agree to allow the amendment?

Why should we agree to do so? Is it in order to change the amendment? I do not believe it is because there is a time limit which applies in respect of tabling motions and amendments. If we are late submitting a motion, it is not accepted. The same should apply in respect of Senator Norris's amendment. I ask the Leas-Chathaoirleach to conclude this discussion and call on the Minister. We have enough hot air in the House already.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair has had discretion in the past either in accepting late motions or amendments.

We have not been circulated with the Senator's proposed changes. Is it not in order to circulate an addendum to an amendment?

The Chair's ruling should not be questioned.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair is asking the House to accept a verbal amendment which involves the deletion of three words and a change in order of two further words.

The Chair's ruling should not be challenged.

It is very simple. The amendment stays as it is. We are not agreeing to the change.

In that case, we will have a vote on it.

Rules are rules.

Is the Leas-Chathaoirleach in a position to cite the Standing Order which legally permits Senator Norris to change his amendment? If not, I do not think a vote is relevant.

Surely the—

I should be permitted to finish my point.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has already done so. I refer him to Standing Order 25.

Will the Chair—

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I presume the Senator is aware of that Standing Order?

No, not in this case.

It is not acceptable that a Member of the House is not aware of Standing Orders.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The text of Standing Order 25 reads as follows:

Motions and amendments, save such as are allowed by these Standing Orders to be proposed without notice, shall be in writing, signed by a Senator as proposer and another Senator as seconder. Motions and amendments may not be moved on a day unless they shall have reached the Clerk not later than 11 a.m. on the fourth preceding day in the case of motions and not later than 11 a.m. on the second preceding day in the case of amendments: Provided that by permission of the Cathaoirleach motions and amendments may be moved on shorter notice.

A Leas-Chathaoirligh, you are going to create a precedent. There will be no law and order in future if motions and amendments to motions can be changed in the Chamber.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

This has happened before. One amendment is a grammatical change and one deletes a couple of words.

You have ruled, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has already spoken.

The Chair's rulings should not be challenged and that is the precedent we should observe.

A Leas-Chathaoirligh, where is the reference in Standing Orders to changes to the wording of an amendment during the course of a debate? I have lost my argument if you can cite that reference.

This is filibustering. We have won a moral victory.

A Leas-Chathaoirligh, may I speak?

The procedure is rooted in the Chair's discretion on these matters.

The Chair's discretion on what?

Exactly.

This is getting like Florida.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair will put the amendment at the conclusion of the debate. Senator Norris can formally move his amendment to the amendment at that stage. Can I have a formal seconder for the amendment?

I formally second the amendment.

I am sorry, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, but can Senator Connor second the amendment if he has spoken already?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is there another seconder in the House?

I will second the amendment more than formally.

Maith an cailín.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Does Senator Henry wish to speak at this stage?

I wish to second the amendment but not just formally. I wish to speak.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Does the Senator wish to speak now?

Yes, in case there is further legal argument and I do not get a chance to speak.

The Senator was not in the House when Senator Norris spoke. She is now being allowed to speak before the Minister. This is not proper.

It is very proper.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is proper when the Chair calls for a seconder.

The Senator was not in the House when Senator Norris concluded.

Senator Fitzgerald knows it is not appropriate to refer to the absence of a Member.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is a precedent for this, Senator Fitzgerald.

I can let someone else speak first if this is causing some difficulty. However, I would be quite happy to speak now. I second the amendment.

I read the motion with some astonishment because of my recent disappointment when the Leader informed me that the mental health Bill will not be taken in the House before Christmas. The Bill was first brought to the House before last Christmas and I was told it was to proceed with the greatest possible speed. If the greatest possible speed is that an extraordinarily important mental health Bill cannot get through the Dáil in a year then I dread to think what is involved if something happens slowly.

There is a very serious situation concerning prisoners. I would not mind so much if further prison places were being built or refurbished for the sake of the general well-being of prisoners, but that is not why all this prison building is going on. This building seems to be taking place so we can incarcerate more prisoners.

Being a conscientious man I am sure the Minister read Dr. Enda Dooley's report on the health service in prisons. However, I am sure the Minister was as dismayed as I was at the continuing problems regarding the health of prisoners. At least 10% of prisoners have a serious psychiatric illness and 30% are described as having some sort of psychiatric illness. When one considers that the rate for such illness is about 4% in the general population one has to wonder if a large number of people are in prison because they have a psychiatric illness rather than because they committed a heinous crime.

I have spoken before in the House about the homeless people I meet on my way home every night on Baggot Street, a considerable number of whom end up in prison. Surveys carried out by different Departments show that about 30% of homeless people admit to suffering from a psychiatric illness and another 30% suffer from alcohol or drug addiction. This is why these people are on the streets.

Reports from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform have continued to point out that many of these people get involved in petty crime, are arrested, convicted and put in jail but cannot get bail because they have no address. They are kept in jail for a short period of time. The Minister speaks about the revolving door syndrome and people being released early. However, when homeless people are released they have nowhere to go.

How many hostel places have been built in the past three years? No such places have been built for women. I do not know the number for men but it is very few. How many additional probation officers have been appointed? What increases have been introduced in community work programmes? These are difficult subjects, particularly community work, as there is the issue of supervision. However, people would join the probation service if positions were created. People cannot be supervised when they come out of prison nor can reports be compiled, even on children who come before the courts. Judges have stated it is impossible to continue with cases involving children without such reports.

It would be monstrous if I applauded the Government for building more prison places when no action is being taken in these areas. If all of these prison places are being built what will be the increase in the number of prison doctors? What will be the position regarding nurses, particularly psychiatric nurses, working in the Prisons Service? The Minister has not addressed these issues.

My primary concern is that when these people are released from prison, far from coming out to some sort of structured rehabilitation programmes, there is nowhere for them to go. Sometimes when released they have very little money, so what will happen to them? Those of a lesser intellectual ability will become involved in further crimes because that is all that is in front of them. No progress has been made in this area.

I do not know what would happen if it was not for Sister Ó Caoimhín and her drop-in centre. As far as I know she gets £300,000 per year to run the centre. I think it costs about £50,000 to keep someone in prison. I am sure the Minister has visited the drop-in centre which is extraordinarily compassionate and helpful to people released from prison, yet it is run for the same cost as keeping six people in jail. Why can we not help other people to set up similar programmes? In particular, why can we not provide shelter, support and training for people, particularly young people, released from prison? Many prisoners are institutionalised because they have served many sentences, quite often for petty crimes. It is impossible to see how such people can remain outside prison.

We have seen serious problems with taxi drivers in the vicinity of Leinster House. When taxi licences are being issued I have asked that the greatest possible care be given to ensuring that people convicted of sex or violent offences are not given licences. This has happened in the past. Many prisoners have been convicted of sexual crimes but are not receiving any form of therapy. I accept that such people need to show some commitment towards therapy but it is extraordinary that there are no treatment services in the Curragh and only a limited number in Arbour Hill Prison.

About one third of sex crimes are committed by young people and it would be of great assistance if some form of treatment could be provided for them. If this happens then at least there is a possibility they will not reoffend.

The new women's prison is very good and the conditions are much better than before. However, even in these conditions, people have committed suicide and others have attempted it. Psychiatric services should be the priority rather than the bricks and mortar. It is mainly personnel who are needed. The Minister is aware that it is mainly junior doctors who run the psychiatric services. They are not in a position to establish long-term therapeutic relationships with their patients. There is nothing in the way of psychology for those people. We put all our money into bricks and mortar and locked doors and expect that to have some effect. If we are just using prisons as holding stations and if there are enthusiasts who feel that at least crime will not be committed by people who are in prison, I presume it is not intended we should incarcerate them forever.

I examined the position in America, where there has been a major programme of private prison building. Prisons have been built there in a speculative manner and those prisons will be privately run. Those who build them know that if they build them they will be filled. I hate to have to say it, but this prison programme reminds me of that – the prisons will be there and, therefore, they will be filled.

I am delighted to take this opportunity to highlight the achievement of the Government in developing a prison service of which we can all be proud, in terms of the prison building refurbishment programme, a major achievement in its own right, and the significant advances that continue to be made in developing rehabilitation programmes generally.

Since 1997 I have presided over an unprecedented investment in our prison infrastructure. Already additional custodial accommodation has been provided at the Midlands Prison, 515 spaces, Cloverhill Remand Prison, 400 spaces, Dóchas Centre, 80 spaces, Castlerea Prison, 152 spaces, and Limerick Prison D Wing, 60 spaces. In all more than 1,200 additional prison spaces have been provided with a further 700 closed spaces on the way.

The new female prison at Mountjoy, the Dóchas Centre, which I opened in October last year, is an example of the necessary accommodation that has been provided. It is one of the most advanced institutions of its kind in the world. The prison has accommodation for 80 women and offenders are accommodated in seven separate houses with mainly single rooms. There are a limited number of interconnecting rooms for family members and larger rooms for mothers with babies. Each room has a toilet, washbasin and shower installed in an en-suite unit. Each house has a kitchen cum dining area and sitting room. A comprehensive range of support and facilities is provided for the women, including education, life skills, computer skills, physical education, medical services, counselling, a library, a chaplaincy, indoor and outdoor recreation and a training workshop. The general layout of the facility is spacious and open.

A visitors' waiting area has been provided at Mountjoy Prison which caters for the whole complex. It includes a children's play area and means of providing light refreshments for prison visitors. I am also pleased to confirm that I am planning another similar facility on a smaller scale for prisoners' families in Limerick.

New accommodation such as we have provided recently will also enable the Prisons Service to commence much needed work on the upgrading and modernisation of some of our older institutions. I am particularly pleased to have approved the commencement of detailed planning for the complete refurbishment of Mountjoy Prison, where a major overhaul is long overdue. It is intended to commence work on the site next year. Is it the provision of accommodation such as this that the counter-proposers find objectionable or short-sighted or would they prefer us to have the Victorian conditions in which our offenders were formerly housed?

Our investment will ensure that the scandal of the revolving door, with which we lived for so long, will have been brought to a halt for good. Already the number of prisoners on temporary release has fallen from 463 in 1997 compared to just more than 200 at present. Quite recently the governor of Cork Prison informed me that on a comparable day two years ago 125 people were on temporary release or early release from Cork prison, most of them on release on the sole criterion that there was an insufficiency of space. On the same Friday in November 2000, there were just 13 on early release from Cork Prison and all of them were on structured, planned releases. That gives Members an indication of what has happened in our prison service and the transformation that has come about under this Administration.

Almost all prisoners on early release at present are on structured programmes, in many cases under the direct supervision of the probation and welfare service. Those not on structured programmes have been temporarily released for valid compassionate reasons, ill health or family related circumstances. For the first time in 25 years, we are reaching the stage where we can accommodate all those sentenced by the courts for the full duration of their sentences. The impact of the elimination of unplanned temporary releases on the level of indictable crime is not only clear but irrefutable.

Aside from ending unplanned releases of offenders, other considerable benefits and oppor tunities arise from our prison building programme, benefits which are all too frequently overlooked. We are not only bringing to an end the chronic overcrowding which bedevilled our prisons for so many years, we are also in a position to create the conditions in which prisoner rehabilitation, through a coherent process of sentence planning, can take place. Our investment programme, therefore, goes well beyond physical infrastructure to include investment in programmes and activities for persons sentenced to terms of imprisonment.

Such programmes are almost impossible to deliver in overcrowded conditions. Thanks to the investment by the Government, however, the Prisons Service is now in a position to fulfil one of its prime objectives in developing and maintaining an enhanced range of rehabilitative measures that will be made available to all prisoners. In the revolving door period, which peaked under my predecessor in office, prison staff found it almost impossible to motivate prisoners whose only focus was to get temporary release. Equally, participation rates in prisoner education were much lower than they needed to have been. That has all changed in the short period of three years.

Earlier this year a steering group was established at my instigation to put in place multidisciplinary prisoner programmes. This group, chaired by a senior prison governor, comprises representatives from the Department, senior Prisons Service management, the Probation and Welfare Service, the psychology service, the prisons education service and the Prison Officers Association. Its first task will be to oversee the development of a new rehabilitative programme for sex offenders. Given that we have almost 400 sex offenders serving prison sentences at present, or one in seven of the prisoner population, enhancing treatment programmes for sex offenders in prisons is a priority of the Prisons Service and its director general, Mr. Sean Aylward.

The structured, offence focused, therapeutic programme for sex offenders, introduced in Arbour Hill Prison in 1994, has been operating successfully since then. Furthermore, generic therapeutic and counselling services for sex offenders have been put in place in the Curragh Prison during the past year and a dedicated, sex offender programme is due to start there shortly. The thinking skills course has been running in Arbour Hill and Cork prisons since 1998 and has recently been introduced in the Curragh Prison. It is designed to target a range of offenders, including sex offenders, particularly with a view to motivating the latter group to engage in the most intensive programmes. The course is run by multidisciplinary teams, including prison officers, probation and welfare staff and teaching staff under the guidance of my Department's psychology service. The success of this course augurs well for the use of multidisciplinary teams to deliver rehabilitative programmes for sex offenders.

An important future development in relation to targeted services for imprisoned sex offenders is the intention to develop a new rehabilitative programme for sex offenders. This programme will be delivered by multidisciplinary teams including prison officers, teachers and other prison disciplines, including the psychology and probation services. This model has been operated satisfactorily in Great Britain over the past number of years and I am anxious to see it developed in this jurisdiction.

The key element in this project is the drawing up of manuals for the delivery of this treatment approach and the selection and training methodology for the staff involved. A contract has been placed with an experienced professional to carry out this work which will be completed in the new year. The objective is for the Prisons Service to develop and put in place a wider range of rehabilitative programmes for sex offenders than are currently available to ensure they operate on independently accredited selection, training and service methods and that they reach every sex offender in custody who is willing to participate at some level in their personal rehabilitation and relapse prevention.

Another example of a successful multidisciplinary approach has been the Connect project. This project focuses on prisoners' transition from custody, through training, to reintegration in the community after release and labour market participation. The first stage of the Connect project commenced in February 1998. It was EU funded and involved a collaboration between my Department, the Prison Service and the National Training and Development Institute, part of the Rehab group. The project was developed and brought forward in a manner that involved extensive consultation and partnership within the prisons with the probation and prison education services and with the wider community.

Connect has been designed as an individualised, person centred, employment and social inclusion initiative and is intended to move the offender from welfare to work, from a lifestyle of income dependency or worse to a positive role in society. A key feature in the project is the central role of prison officers, who play a key mentoring role for all participants and are a vital part of the multi-disciplinary team involved in the process. The multi-disciplinary approach is the only way forward in prisoner rehabilitation.

The main result from the first stage of the Connect project was the creation of a process which could easily benefit prisoners in their preparation for employment after release. There were also some interesting facts and figures: a total of 174 prisoners, both men and women, participated in the first stage and of them, 76 have been released. Of the 76 who were released, 26% went straight out to jobs, starting immediately, 7% went out to further training, 5% went out to residential drug treatment and 58% dropped out of contact with the services.

Most remarkably and significantly, of the 76 who were released only 4% have been returned to prison. This needs to be set against a national pattern of 70% recidivism in the prison system generally. All this information will be contained in a detailed project report which will be published later in the year. The Connect project made great strides and achieved real changes for individual prisoners and their families. It was admittedly on a small scale but produced striking results. Fortified by the evident success of the first stage of the Connect project, I sought agreement from my Government colleagues last year to make a £46 million provision in the national development plan for its expansion to the other prisons.

Drug treatment is another area in which we have made significant advances in recent times. A closed institution such as a prison provides a unique opportunity to address the issue of substance misuse and the Prisons Service strategy seeks to do so by targeting supply, reducing demand and minimising harm. Supply is targeted with improved screening facilities in our institutions, demand is reduced through a wide range of treatment options available in all prison institutions as part of the general medical services available to all inmates and harm is minimised through improved general health education.

Efforts to reduce the supply of drugs in the prison system are being pursued vigorously and in this regard a number of measures have been introduced in recent years to curtail the smuggling into and use of illegal drugs in the prison system. These include video surveillance, improved visiting and searching facilities, increased vigilance by staff and urine testing. This policy has been further strengthened in Cloverhill remand prison and the new Midlands Prison by the extensive use of screened visits.

Any offender who is willing to make a real effort to stop abusing drugs and who shows the necessary commitment and motivation is supported by appropriate medical intervention and therapeutic counselling. Intensive treatment has been available in the drug treatment unit which has been in operation in Mountjoy Prison's health care unit since July 1996 The unit is modelled on similar hospital-based units in the community. Almost 300 prisoners have been admitted to this drug treatment unit since it opened.

There are a number of options available where inmates have completed the detoxification programme. For example, they can continue to serve their sentence in the general prison population, they may, if considered suitable, be granted temporary release to continue treatment with an outside agency or they may transfer to the drug free unit at the training unit adjacent to Mountjoy Prison. This unit provides a sympathetic, yet closely monitored setting in which those prisoners who are in the process of coming to terms with their addiction and who have achieved a stable drug free status can serve out their sentences in an environment free from the temptations and risks associated with illicit drugs. The regime in the drug free unit also provides inmates with valuable opportunities in the form of a wide range of work-related and training-related activities to assist in the rehabilitative process.

The drug treatment unit has proved to be a success and its successful completion rate stands at 95%. It has been proven that prisoners who are motivated and who are given an opportunity to engage in a structured detoxification and rehabilitation programme and whose environment is made drug free through strict regulation of visits will successfully stay off illicit drugs. The action plan on drug misuse and drug treatment in the prison system which I approved last year provides a detailed strategy to raise the level of treatment for drug addicted offenders and reduce the supply of drugs in the prison system. This includes the expansion of detoxification facilities, more drug free areas and the provision of methadone maintenance. The provision of addiction counselling support services is central to the plan, which builds on a medical policy that has been agreed between my Department and the Eastern Regional Health Authority in that it seeks to provide the same access to treatment for prisoners as patients have within the community.

The Prisons Service has established a national steering group for prison-based drug treatment services with a view to implementing the action plan. The steering group, chaired by the Prisons Service Director General, comprises representatives from my Department, the Eastern Regional Health Authority, senior prisons service management, the probation and welfare service, the prisons psychology service and the prisons education service. The idea is to work closely with other agencies with experience in this area. Our objective is to replicate in prison to the maximum extent possible the level of medical and other supports available in the community outside. I am confident that this approach has the support of all my colleagues in Government. They and I now want to see early action on the ground, at prison level in the deployment of all necessary medical and other supports to deal with this serious issue.

A further significant development has been the recent opening of a new drug free area within St. Patrick's Institution. The aim of this unit is to assist young offenders aged between 16 and 21 years, many of whom are serving their first custodial sentence, in combating their drug addiction. This is expected to reduce the risk of these prisoners re-offending in the future and increase their prospects of securing employment on release by remaining drug free. I was very impressed by the presence of parents of some of the boys in the unit at the dedication ceremony for this wing in St. Patrick's Institution recently. They were very relieved and gratified to see this development, long overdue though it may be.

However, I remain just as committed, in the case of those offenders whom the courts deem suitable for sanctions other than custody, to facilitating the use of community supervision and sanctions. There are at present about 4,600 individuals under the supervision of the probation and welfare service. Since 1998 I have approved funding for 12 additional projects under the guidance of the service. There are approximately 50 such projects in operation around the country, all of which are community-based, dealing with areas such as drugs aftercare, alcohol treatment for offenders before the courts, youth service projects, community reparation and offender-victim mediation. Further such projects will continue to be developed in co-operation with the probation and welfare service and under the national development plan. The budget for the service will increase to over £25 million next year, a 100% increase since I became Minister.

Custodial sanctions, however, apply in every civilised society. They are imposed for a variety of reasons, including, most importantly, the protection of the public. As such they play a vital role in the overall criminal justice system. The whole edifice of justice, therefore, including the architecture of community sanctions I have referred to, depends on the custodial places being available to guarantee offenders that the sanction of last resort is there if they do not avail of the other lawful options open to them.

The past three years have seen rapid development and change across the Prisons Service generally. Under the guidance of the Prisons Authority Interim Board, which I appointed last year, and the Director General of the Prisons Service, Mr. Seán Aylward, the management and functions of the Prisons Service are moving to a new independent agency. I intend to bring forward the necessary legislation to give formal effect to this change next year. The changeover to independent agency status is required in order to best achieve progress on a range of important issues. I am confident that time will prove the period since 1997 to have been the most significant in the history of the State's prisons. Over that period I have presided over three key developments: the replacement and expansion of the stock of prisoner accommodation, halting the "revolving door" syndrome; the extension of prisoner programmes for sex offenders, drug dependent prisoners and to train and place offenders into gainful employment; and the putting in place of identifiable, accountable leadership for the Prisons Service.

Regarding some of the issues raised, we have been looking at the probation and welfare service. I established an expert review group, which has reported to me, so that we might look at that service in general terms to see how it might be improved. Obviously, additional staff were required and I obtained permission from Government to appoint 40 new officers. The difficulty has been that there has been a very poor response to the advertisements for this position, which is most unfortunate. We have an ongoing competition, however, and we have had 300 applications, with ongoing interviews.

I am building pre-release hostels in Cork and Limerick. I intend to build a pre-release halfway house in the Mountjoy refurbishment for as many as 70 offenders. As for medical treatment, it is difficult to recruit doctors. We have a full-time doctor in the midlands prison. Experience has shown that recruitment of doctors into the public sector is particularly difficult. I dearly wish we had more but the position is that there is a difficulty in getting people to apply.

The whole question of electronic monitoring or tagging of sex offenders was raised. I am watching with great interest developments in electronic tagging, including voice tagging. However, our courts have suggested a type of tagging that has only recently become available in the United States. When I have firm results from the United States, I will certainly consider the issue. Incidentally, tagging was introduced in Scotland in 1998 and after six months only five court orders had been made. The set-up cost of electronic tagging is in the region of £2.5 million.

With regard to the possibility of there being a prisons inspector, the whole concept of developing an inspectorate attracts me greatly and it will be examined favourably in the context of the new Prisons Bill. That is not to say it is my intention to dispense with the visiting committees, which are very successful. The people who serve on them do so voluntarily and they are very dedicated.

The concept of restorative justice was also raised as if it did not exist in my thinking. It does, and for the first time in the history of the State the new Children Bill, which is before the Dáil, embraces the concept of restorative justice. The entire philosophy underlying the Children Bill, where I intend to raise the age of criminal responsibility to 12 years, is that the young person should face the consequences of his or her actions, if possible by facing the victim, if the victim would agree, in a family conference type setting. Restorative justice is the main plank of that legislation or, to put it another way, it is the philosophy which underlies the legislation. The Children Bill is the most revolutionary criminal legislation in many decades and it has been published anew following intensive research internationally. Restorative justice is very much on the cards. The very last option we want to consider in the context of the Children Bill is the option of incarceration. I want to try to get young people to face up to the consequences of their actions and thereby ensure that repeat offending is minimised or eradicated in many cases.

With regard to the question of the psychology service in the prisons, in December of 1998 I approved the establishment of an expert group to review and report on the future role, needs, structure and organisation of the psychology service, and the report was published in August of 1999. Over the past 14 months, the number of psychologists employed by the Prisons Service has increased from five to ten, in other words, it has doubled. That is an indication of the value which I place on that service. In addition, the recruitment of further psychologists for the prison service is under way.

I share the views expressed in relation to Sr. Ó Caoimhín. I have a prison working party assisting her building programme at Ballinascorney because I see great merit in the work she is doing.

I note from the amendment to the motion that I am accused of imagining things. I have been accused of a lot since becoming Minister but this is the first time I have been accused of imagining things. I am not imagining anything because the reality is that the rehabilitation measures which people speak about here in the House – the need to educate, train and integrate people back into society – is simply not achievable in Victorian institutions and, like it or not, that is what we had. People who call for rehabilitation on the one hand and condemn the prison building programme on the other are contradicting themselves. Any fair-minded, objective analysis of the prison building programme will show that measures of rehabilitation, training and education are now in place in modern settings in new buildings. Far from seeking to incarcerate people for the sake of incarcerating them, I have resolutely sought to ensure that the rehabilitation measures were put in place, and they are in place in the new institutions. The people who condemn the prison building programme fail to say that Mountjoy Prison was ignored by successive Administrations—

—where young men from Dublin were incarcerated in overcrowded Victorian conditions and, in truth, left with little hope in life. We are changing that and for the first time we will refurbish Mountjoy Prison, starting next year. That has been an objective of mine over a long period.

Incidentally, the objective of the exercise was also to restore respect for the criminal justice system. When I came into office, and I do not say this boastfully, respect for the criminal justice system had gone out the window because everybody knew that a sentence handed down by the courts was simply not enforced. A person going into pri son was in a position where he or she would be released without ever serving the sentence the courts had handed down. We cannot have a criminal justice system operating like that. It is bound to lose the respect of the public and the respect of the people who are convicted and sentenced by the courts. If evidence is required of this it must surely be the crucial fact that proper education and training programmes could not be put in place for most prisoners for the simple reason that the Prisons Service did not know from day to day whether that individual would be there the following week.

The same is true today.

Whatever about criticisms of the prison building programme, let us not have contradictory statements. One cannot be for rehabilitation and against the prison building programme—

Yes, you can.

—because they are contradictory statements.

The Minister created the conditions in which we fill our prisons with prisoners.

The Minister must be allowed to speak without interruption.

I did not inherit the prison building programme.

I accept that.

In fact, I had the unique distinction of initiating the prison building programme from the Opposition benches and I recall the prison at Castlerea being cancelled by the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, with the apparent acquiescence of the then Minister for Justice.

I reject the allegation that I am hooked on the notion that crime figures go down as prison places are created.

The Minister is hooked on that notion.

Far from the empirical research outlined by Opposition spokespersons, there is an irrefutable and direct link between the incarceration of certain individuals and a decrease in crime.

That is not proven. The Minister should look at America.

The Minister, without interruption.

The Minister is trying to mislead the House.

The fact that crime under this Administration has been reduced by a stupendous 21% in three years, while the prison population has increased, must surely serve as cogent evidence that there has to be a connection. People might not like the fact that there is a connection but there is one. That does not mean, nor did I ever say, that people would be incarcerated for that reason alone. Incarceration is not an end in itself. I am duty bound to protect the public and the objective of the prison building programme is not only to ensure this but also to ensure that individuals are given the opportunity in prison to organise their lives in such a way that they can have a stake in society. That has been the clear objective across the prison building programme and no one who examined the new prisons would deny that.

It was suggested that there is no vision in relation to alternatives. Nothing could be further from the truth. An Opposition Senator said there are 1,500 people in jail for the non-payment of debts or fines.

That is the truth.

This figure accounts for almost 50% of the people in custody.

I am quoting the Minister's figure.

The reality is that at any one time the number of people in prison for the non-payment of a debt or fine is 1% or less of the entire prison population.

I have dealt with the inspectorate, restorative justice and rehabilitation in so far as I can during the limited time available. I accept fully the need to address white collar crime and that is why tomorrow in the Dáil I will introduce the new criminal justice Bill. This Bill will provide for the first time for simplified definitions of what have been complicated criminal offences, for example, embezzlement, fraudulent conversion, larceny and forgery. The simple theme running through the legislation is that a person who dishonestly makes a gain or causes a loss will be found guilty of an offence and the jury will understand precisely that he is so guilty. The difficulty with present day definitions is that juries sometimes find it difficult to comprehend the sheer complexity of what is charged and, unfortunately, it can lead to people being acquitted when they might not otherwise be acquitted – I use the words "might not" advisedly.

On the issues of health and psychiatric illness, I indicated that the number of psychologists in prison has been doubled. One of the tragic, unfortunate facts of life is that there is a high level of mental illness in prisons and this is why I have sought to improve the medical service. I readily accept that the service needs further improvement and it is my intention to continue to try to improve the health service and education and other services which would assist in the physical and mental well-being of prisoners. The new Connect project is very exciting in terms of rehabilitating members of the prison population.

As I said at the opening of Cloverhill Prison, in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform even our good news is bad news. We have to try to make the best of it for those people at the bottom of life's pile. This is why I hope the prison building programme and measures for prisoners will help people at the bottom of the pile climb some way up the ladder, always being mindful of the fact that the public is entitled to be protected and must be protected.

On a point of order—

The Senator has made his contribution.

Am I being denied the opportunity to raise a point of order?

On a point of order, Senator.

I withdrew something I said as I was given the impression, I am sure unintentionally, by Senator John Cregan that the proposer of the motion on the Order Paper, Senator Cassidy, had spoken.

This is not a point of order.

I beg your pardon, I thought it was. I apologise to the Minister. Apparently I stung him by suggesting that he was a man of imagination. I accept that he has no imagination whatsoever.

That is fine, Shakespeare was also accused of that.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to discuss the building, refurbishment and rehabilitative programmes in the prison system. When these programmes are complete, the number of prison places will have doubled from approximately 2,000 to 4,000. During the mid-1930s virtually all local prisons were closed, with the result that the number of prison places was greatly depleted.

In recent years the Prisons Service has become much more open, for example, personnel have become more courteous and one receives a much better response to questions than was the case previously. The move towards the establishment of an independent prison board with a director general is the proper approach. Such an operational agency would be better able to come to grips with the complex issues which arise in relation to prisons.

The Minister outlined his wonderful plans and the steps he has taken, which mainly consists of a prison building programme. When one looks at the other measures, one sees that they are rehabilitation and refurbishment plans for the future. Mountjoy Prison is the most Victorian of all prisons, yet it still has not been refurbished, while the system of incarceration, toilet facilities etc., are the same as they were 150 years ago. Prison buildings are a monument to the inaction of the Minister.

The Probation and Welfare Service was very much opposed to the opening of the new prison in the midlands on the grounds that it was not satisfied enough was being done on the other side of the coin, that is, the rehabilitative programme. The Minister's thinking is that the more prison spaces that are created, the more opportunity there will be to refurbish other sections of the prison and to put in place rehabilitation programmes. This is good in theory but it is not happening in practice.

The Minister said that the whole edifice of justice depends on custodial places being available to guarantee offenders that the sanction of last resort is there for them. Of course, it is the sanction of last resort for a small section of the population, that is, those at the lower end of the spectrum, the less well off, the poor and the marginalised. The people who go to prison have a similar profile and a rehabilitative programme must ensure that there is a reception process for prisoners from once they leave the court until they arrive in prison.

Under the current reception process, a prisoner has to strip and take a shower, after which he is weighed and his belongings are checked before he is put away. However, a reception process that would ascertain what are a prisoner's needs and what is his background would form an assessment and it could be determined from the beginning how an individual should spend his term in prison. He should be prepared for his release from the day he enters prison.

If a prisoner's criminality is associated with a drug problem, he should immediately be offered the option of taking up a drugs programme within or without the prison walls or a combination of both. If a prisoner has poor skills, has received little or no training and has poor employment prospects, a range of options should be provided for him. That is not happening and there is no movement in that direction. These programmes should be geared towards release so that there is a link between what happens from the moment an individual sets foot in the prison system and the moment he returns to the community. Unless one adopts such an integrated approach one will not be successful. There has been little preparation for a move in that direction.

I am delighted there is a plan to develop a therapeutic process for sex offenders. It is only a few years since prison authorities said there was no reason to put such a programme in place because sex offenders were not amenable to it. However, they now say they will provide a programme but it still has not been undertaken. Sex offenders comprise a large portion of the prison population.

The drug rehabilitation programme is not adequate. Thankfully, the health boards are being brought on board and I hope a programme similar to that run in the education system will be adopted so that the treatment provided to drug offenders in prison will be available when they re-enter the community.

A full-time inspector of prisons has still not been appointed. I have had a motion in this regard on the Order Paper for some time. An independent inspector is needed on a full-time basis. I still receive many complaints about what is happening in prison. Only yesterday a mother informed me about a senior officer in one of our main prisons. Her young son was being taunted and the other prisoners were told that they could get drugs from him. He had been off drugs for three years and was determined to stay off them, yet he was being presented as a drug pusher.

The composition and operation of visiting committees must be changed. It is absolutely incredible that the best people on the Mountjoy Prison visiting committee come from the kingdom of Kerry. That is not the way it should be. Many issues have yet to be addressed. The Minister could usefully consider a package which would include a much wider range of measures than prison building or prison refurbishment.

In the limited time at my disposal I aim to make three points. I am satisfied with the Minister's account of his work to date. The building programme he has undertaken has provided the opportunity for a much more benign prison regime. For example, he pointed out that the revolving door syndrome had been brought to an end. That at least will mean that prisoners will be given the time and space to be rehabilitated rather than releasing them unprepared for the outside world. That is a plus and a move in the right direction.

I also welcome the provision of the new extension to the women's prison in Mountjoy. I visited the prison on two occasions and I had nightmares when I saw the layer of despair that had settled over the lives of young women there who were wasting away, without rehabilitation of any consequence being provided. Life prospects have been changed for such women and I hope in their new environment they will at least be afforded an opportunity to look forward to a decent, ordinary life when they leave prison. We have created the conditions for that and it is a major step in the right direction.

The Connect project is the correct project. It is an integrated project which prepares prisoners to change their ways so that they can live an ordinary, decent life when they leave prison, but I caution that there is a great need to put a halfway house in place. No matter how systematic or rigorous is the education programme people cannot be transported from the rigid structured day to day routine of prison to the outside world. There is a gross need to follow up on the Connect project, which is well intentioned and well framed, by providing halfway house and hostel accommodation before prisoners are released.

I appeal strongly to employers to provide job opportunities for people who have been in prison and to play their part in helping to rehabilitate them. I am glad the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Hanafin, is present. There should be a shift in emphasis in allocating resources. Resources are primarily provided for rehabilitating prisoners and preparing them to leave prison. More resources should be allocated to preventing people from entering prison in the first instance.

In that respect I appeal to the Minister of State to use her influence to bring the juvenile justice Bill to fruition. I am deeply disappointed in this regard. In 1990 I was chairman of an all-party select committee on justice which spent 12 months formulating a report which we believed would be the basis of pending legislation. The report was published in 1991 and ten years later a juvenile justice Bill still has not been introduced. It is not to the credit of Administrations in the intervening period that such legislation was not brought forward and enacted. Any self-respecting society would want to put in place a juvenile justice system which would aim to protect young people, prevent them from lapsing into a life of crime and, if possible, keep them out of prison. Will the Minister of State bring forward that legislation?

The entire philosophy of the legislation is very much in keeping with the committee's report. The concept of restorative justice is correct. Young people must be brought face to face with the consequences of their crimes and the victims of their crimes. That is the most important thing we could do for our young people. However, unless the law is introduced that will not happen. It is not to our credit that we still operate under children's legislation which was enacted before the foundation of the State in 1908. The Minister of State with responsibility for the protection of children should do her best to fast-forward that legislation.

Moving forward, there has been a change in approach and attitude and it is nice to see that white collar crime merchants are taking their rightful place in prison.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Too many people whose lot in life was poor from the outset are in prison and too many from the opposite end of society are on the outside, and I want that balance restored.

I was not going to speak but I got so annoyed with some remarks which were passed that I decided to say a few words. The remarks were snide and a joke was made not only of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and our justice system, but also of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The motion should be taken seriously.

A case was made to knock down all our prisons and leave the criminals out on the street again. We are the legislators. If those who said so do not wish to put people in prison, they should not on the next occasion criminal justice legislation is being debated seek a higher prison sentence or that a person should go to prison if he or she fails to pay a fine. That is exactly what they have been talking about, that these people, such as those who do not pay fines, should not go to prison. No matter what the Minister says or does, it will still be a bit of a joke in the eyes of the Opposition.

The Minister is committed to ending crime, if possible. He would be the happiest man alive if he could level every prison in Ireland and we could have a society free of criminals. Is someone trying to tell me that the murderers of Veronica Guerin should be released? Is that what Senator Norris wants? What about the people he complained about who urinated outside his door and whom he wanted put in prison?

All I want is restorative justice.

Senator Norris called for that a few months ago and he told me in private recently that he was very happy it was taken care of by the Garda.

The Senator is using private confidential information. I am shocked, surprised and horrified.

Senator Fitzgerald without interruption, please.

It gives me great satisfaction to say that. It is on the record. I remember Senator Connor in the Minister's first year in office calling for extra prison places.

Extra prison places with rehabilitation as backup.

The Minister has done a good job. He has introduced rehabilitation programmes. It is not the case that he wants to put everyone behind bars but rather to tell people that, if they spend time behind bars but continue to commit crime, there is no place for them in our society and that they should be behind bars. It gives me great pleasure in the short time available to me to second the motion.

The motion is not seconded on the Order Paper. Is that not a cause for it to be withdrawn?

I thought the Senator was changing items on the Order Paper earlier.

The practice is that non-Government motions are accepted in the names of the Leaders of the groups. On this occasion Senator Cassidy submitted a motion on behalf of the Fianna Fáil group.

The Chair has allowed Senator Norris to propose a verbal amendment to amendment No. 1. While the Chair has agreed to Senator Norris's request, this is not to be regarded as a precedent for allowing amendments to amendments to Private Members' motions to be moved in the House. The amendment which the Chair has allowed Senator Norris to propose is to delete the words "the notion of" and to delete the words "by merely increasing" and substitute the words "merely by increasing". Is the amendment to amendment No. 1 agreed?

I am glad the Cathaoirleach made the point that this should not create a precedent.

This will not create a precedent.

Yes. From my reading of Standing Orders, there is no provision for what is happening. However, I realise that the amendment is textual. I wish to make it clear that, in accepting the textual change, the parties on the Government side do not agree to the amendment.

I will put the revised amendment.

I realise that but I wish to make it clear on the record that there is no question of it being—

I am happy with a textual change rather than an amendment, if that helps.

It surprises me that someone of Senator Norris's distinguished linguistic qualities, especially in the English language, would include a phrase such as "imagining that the notion of".

Exactly, and it surprises me that the Government could not even second its own motion, but I am too gentlemanly to have it removed from the Order Paper.

Amendment to amendment No. 1 agreed to.

The proper procedure would have been to provide a substitute amendment. However, I have allowed it and the House has agreed to the revised amendment No. 1 being put to the House. Is the revised amendment No. 1 agreed?

Could the Cathaoirleach read out the revised amendment?

I am putting the revised amendment No. 1 to the House.

I am not clear what it is. Could the Cathaoirleach read it out?

The amendment reads:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:

"condemns the shortsighted policy of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in imagining that criminal and anti-social activity can be countered by increasing merely the number of prison places.".

Amendment put.

Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Henry, Mary.

Jackman, Mary.McDonagh, Jarlath.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cox, Margaret.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.

Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Donovan, Denis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Costello and Norris; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the motion be agreed to."

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cox, Margaret.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.

Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Donovan, Denis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Henry, Mary.

Jackman, Mary.McDonagh, Jarlath.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Burke and Ridge.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn