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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2000

Vol. 164 No. 21

Order of Business.

The Order of Business for today is No. 1, the National Training Fund Bill, 2000 – Second Stage, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes; No. 2, Appropriation Bill, 2000 – all Stages, with the contributions of spokespersons on Second Stage not to exceed 30 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed 20 minutes; No. 3, earlier signature motion on the Appropriation Bill, 2000, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 2; No. 4, not to be taken before 4 p.m., the National Stud (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Second Stage, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes. Senators may share time.

In the spirit of Christmas and in consideration of the great night had by all the Members opposite last night, the Order of Business is agreeable to us. I want to raise one point with the Leader because it is only fair that people should know that we are sitting next week. We have no objection to sitting Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday of next week—

Or the week after that.

—but we would like to know in advance.

I want to raise another serious point. The Leader will recall that the week before last I raised the issue of people being released from prison for unsupervised weekends, and we are all aware of the sad case that occurred in Galway as a result of that policy. I ask that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform be brought into the House to explain the basis on which people are released from prison unsupervised, particularly in light of what happened this weekend in respect of the McCabe case. As far as I am concerned, those people are murderers, yet the three of them were released during that period. One of them was in a pub until 1 a.m. That is not good enough. Obviously he was not supervised, or else the supervisor was in the pub with him. It is atrocious that these three people could be released unsupervised. They do not come under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement so I cannot understand the reason they were released.

We have some reservations about the Order of Business. In view of the fact that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development is coming into the House to take the National Stud Bill, could we spend some time after that discussing the BSE crisis? I was very disturbed by what Deputy O'Malley said in the other House yesterday. In view of his comments and those of Commissioner Fischler about ground water, perhaps we could spend a little more time discussing that issue.

Will the Leader invite the Minister for Education and Science into the House as soon as possible in the next session to discuss the serious decline in the number of second level students taking honours physics and chemistry, and indeed higher mathematics? Much of our current prosperity is built on graduates in science and technology and there is a gradual drift away from these subjects, which is serious.

In view of the fact that I thought I had been given promises that they would take place in this session, is it too much to hope that we would have debates on the Environmental Protection Agency report? Senator Quill, in particular, raised this matter previously. Do we have to wait until the next Inspector of Mental Hospitals' report arrives on our desks before we bother debating this year's report?

I have reservations about the Order of Business in that it is the same type of business we always seem to do at the end of a session where we try to put through three important Bills in one day. That is not the way to go about our business. I congratulate the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands on her decision to bid for James Joyce's Circe episode in Ulysses. I am delighted the National Library has been authorised to bid in Christies of New York and, I hope, we will purchase it because we have virtually nothing of James Joyce's work in Ireland. That entire heritage has been lost to this country and let us hope that at last we will get some of his original manuscripts.

I am proposing an amendment to the Order of Business to discuss the teachers' pay claim and the dispute which escalated today, with pickets extended to community colleges and comprehensive schools. After eight days of industrial action the Minister for Education and Science has not come to this House to discuss the dispute. The situation is getting out of hand. All we have heard from the Minister is that he would dock pay for work that did not have to be done by teachers, which is very provocative. He also gave teachers a lecture on morality. This is not good enough. We need discussion and a forum. This House also needs to know what the Minister for Education and Science is thinking. There is now a window of opportunity and it would worthwhile discussing the matter before the Christmas recess. The Minister should come into the House to hear what we have to say.

Senator Costello has moved an amendment to the Order of Business and I have given him adequate opportunity to say why it should be taken.

Yesterday several Senators sought a debate on the quality of drinking water. I would like time to be provided in the near future to discuss with the Minister for Health and Children the issue of public health as it relates not only to water but also to food. As Senator Henry said, the details revealed yesterday by Deputy O'Malley in the other House about the practices in a meat plant in Limerick which culled depopulated herds with BSE and also killed meat for the home market are alarming. I ask the Leader to provide time for a debate on these issues as soon as possible.

I am anxious that unfettered time be provided for the debate on the National Stud (Amendment) Bill. There may only be a limited number of Members who wish to contribute to the debate and I ask the Leader to exercise a certain discretion in regard to the time provided for it.

I support the points made by the acting leader of the Fine Gael group on compassionate or temporary release. It is a joke that one individual convicted of murder was apparently found after hours in a licensed premises, while the other individual was off in another direction.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister's answer on this matter so far has not been satisfactory. I ask the Leader to make time available for a debate on this matter.

I also ask him to provide time early in the next session for a debate on the Courts Service Strategic Plan, 2000-2003. Many Members have comments to make on this plan and we want to hear the views of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

A debate on the teachers' strike at this time will serve no purpose.

Nor it seems at any time.

The Minister has agreed to meet the teachers. This is the second time he has issued an invitation to meet him. This meeting will take place and hopefully it will solve the problem.

He was supposed to meet with them but did not do so.

It will be next year.

He has been available to meet them—

He has not.

—and it is up to the executive to come forward. I will support every move the teachers make but hopefully they will sit around the table, which is the proper way to do business.

Perhaps the Senator will get some movement from the Minister.

I would welcome a debate on the recruitment of teachers and their conditions of employment but they should sit around the table first.

That is a great idea.

There is another issue I wish to raise with the Leader.

A question, please.

I previously requested the allocation of time for a debate on the role of An Bord Pleanála and I ask the Leader to provide this early in the new year. The reason I raise this issue again is that guidelines have been issued on the new planning legislation and the brief of An Bord Pleanála in relation to many of the issues covered by them will have to be changed. Now that the legislation has been enacted we are in a position to see how accountable An Bord Pleanála is in relation to it.

On the item raised by the Fine Gael acting leader, there is unease among the Garda and the wider public about the regime of temporary unsupervised release of some categories of prisoners whom we all believed were not covered by the Agreement. I am concerned about the conflict and contradictions in terms of the Minister's past commitments and statements on the matter. Will the Leader outline the basis on which these releases are granted? Can we have a definitive statement on the matter?

We have no difficulty about the proposals for next week but would like to know today what the arrangements are.

I second Senator Costello's amendment to the Order of Business, maybe for differ ent reasons. It is incredible that a Member on the Government side would say that we would have a muzzled debate on the teachers' strike. This is ridiculous.

That is not correct – I never said we would have a muzzled debate.

That is correct. The Senator said we would not have a debate. That is what is called muzzling freedom of speech.

I said we would have a debate—

Senators must not pre-empt the debate which has been sought. Senator Ross has seconded the amendment to the Order of Business. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader of the House?

I have several questions for him. Can we please have a debate on the teachers' strike and ensure that Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats do not muzzle the debate on this issue?

There is no question of muzzling the debate.

Senator Ormonde would certainly have a contribution to make on this.

A decision will be made in due course on the amendment which has been proposed and seconded. That decision will be made by the House.

I would be grateful if I was not interrupted by Members from the Government benches.

They are trying to muzzle the Senator.

I ask that the Minister for Education and Science be present for the debate, not the Minister for Defence or any other Minister.

He will be here.

Will the Leader say which Ministers will be present today? I ask him in future to tell us in advance which Ministers will take the legislation we are debating. This is not an unreasonable request. Yesterday complicated legislation was taken by an inappropriate Minister and went through virtually on the nod. Will the Leader say on the Order of Business today the Ministers who will take each item?

I congratulate RTE on its "Prime Time" programme on alcohol abuse which was shown last night. During the weekend in Dublin 70% of ambulances collect drunks off the street, while 40% of hospital accident and emergency services are taken up treating drunks. These are shocking statistics.

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. Senator Farrell has a question for the Leader.

This is the biggest problem facing us and I ask the Leader to provide time for a debate on alcohol abuse and homelessness, which are related problems. I appeal to fathers and mothers to take the scrantas out of their eyes and look at what their children are doing in universities. I also appeal to schools to get a copy of this programme and show it to students. University students are the professionals and fathers and mothers of tomorrow. What kind of society will we have if something is not done about this problem?

Mr. Ryan

I agree with the thrust of what Senator Farrell said, but not necessarily the emotion of it. There is a huge case for a code of practice on the presence of the drinks industry in third level institutions. In every college in the third level sector there is a full-time promoter working for the breweries. This is a serious issue. I am far more concerned about alcohol and young people than I ever would be about the drug scares that float around all the time. Alcohol does far more damage to more people than drugs will ever do.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Mr. Ryan

I am astonished but not surprised that Fianna Fáil does not want us to debate the teachers' strike. It is always their wish that we should not debate anything that would embarrass them. I suppose that is understandable.

It is astonishing that we have not debated in this House our biggest industrial relations problem. This dispute is far more widespread, threatening and potentially damaging than the taxi strike which only caused us great inconvenience. If the teachers' dispute rolls on indefinitely it will cause enormous harm. We should talk about it now when it is urgent and important.

About four weeks ago the Leader told me that the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill, 1999, would be withdrawn but it is still on the Order Paper. I realise that I am becoming repetitious but it is because one cannot get a precise answer that I must keep asking what is happening to it. I have said before that this is not a trivial matter. This country needs this fundamental infrastructure far more than the roads system.

I ask the Leader to add to his list of issues to be debated in the new year the question of public transport provision outside Dublin. I have no dis pute with investment in public transport in Dublin. However, there are areas in the country which within six years will be of the same magnitude as the Dublin of ten years ago. We can either go through the whole range of public transport problems again or talk about it now.

I ask the Leader to consider taking all Stages of the National Stud (Amendment) Bill today. Of course we would accept an unfettered debate. It would be desirable to take all Stages today.

I ask the Leader to respond favourably to the requests made by Senators Gibbons and Henry to debate the food crisis today. I know it is only a week since we did so but there have been many developments of serious proportions.

Senator Henry made a good suggestion that while the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development is here today for our debate on the National Stud (Amendment) Bill, and I assume on the basis of Senator Ross's request that he will be present, he should spend some time discussing the beef crisis in the food industry.

I ask the Leader to consider asking the Minister for Defence to come here in the new term. There was a reference to the Minister earlier in another context but that is not what I had in mind.

To talk about education probably.

He would be an excellent representative in that regard.

I want to ask him about something that happened at the Nice Summit and Ireland's decision to become part of the European rapid reaction force. I am concerned, along with many others, about our future role not so much in a military alliance but in a crisis resolution context. There is already talk among our European partners about using nuclear weapons and missiles in the theatre of conflict resolution in Europe. This country has a very strong view about the use of missiles and nuclear weapons. I am concerned that we might be drawn into an area and used in a context that is unacceptable to the vast majority of Irish people. In that context it might be useful if the Minister came here at the start of the new year to clarify precisely what Ireland's obligations will be as part of the rapid reaction force.

I ask for a debate on education. It is very important that we do this soon. I am very concerned that the Minister for Education and Science is debating this issue over the airwaves. It is very important that both sides of the dispute meet.

No one has mentioned the students, those who are caught in the middle and are very distressed. I ask that this dispute be resolved and that students should be able to look forward to going back to their studies next term without fear of disruption before their very important exams in the summer. Both sides should think of the plight of students.

The Senator must not pre-empt the debate which has been sought. The House will decide in a matter of minutes whether we will have this debate.

I realise that, a Chathaoirligh, and I thank you for your indulgence. I wanted to make the point that we should not forget the students during this dispute.

I support the call for a debate on An Bord Pleanála. I appreciate the point has been made that it should be in a broad context. I want the Leader to know it is vitally important that we debate it in the context of the rural renewal scheme for the counties of the west under a Government led policy decision. The decisions made by An Bord Pleanála in recent times are in conflict with Government policy. A debate here would help us to iron out any difficulties.

With regard to temporary release from prisons, I support the call that parole boards should be set up. I understand that the relevant Minister supports this measure and that he is taking steps to set them up. As regards temporary release generally, during the term of the last Government two gardaí from my area took a prisoner from Ballinasloe to Dublin and he was home before them. They stopped for a meal on the way home.

They were getting expenses.

We had the revolving door at that time. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform put an end to it. His policies are welcome.

It was our policy that got rid of the revolving door.

I support Members who called for an urgent debate on education. We have two sides thinking differently about this issue and the argument is taking place on the airwaves. Young people are very concerned about their future and their education. I call for a debate with the Minister here and I want a mediator appointed to help resolve this dispute.

I take this opportunity to congratulate the new President-elect of the United States, George W. Bush. He is to be the successor to one of the best US Presidents as far as Ireland is concerned, Bill Clinton. I wish the new President-elect well. We will give him all of our support as we have always done. I hope he follows in the footsteps of his predecessor, President Clinton, and that the United State will continue to be fully committed to peace in Ireland. I also hope he will help to further peace as President Clinton has done.

On behalf of us all I thank President Clinton for another historic day in Belfast yesterday. It was a milestone. I watched it on television last night and it gave me great hope for the future and what we can achieve. This island can move forward with technological advances and the help of the United States, a country which has been magnificent during the Clinton years.

This morning Senator Coogan and other Members mentioned their serious concern about the short temporary release of prisoners connected to the murder of Jerry McCabe. I listened to what the Senators said and I will convey their comments to the relevant Minister. I know there are serious concerns about the temporary release programme but temporary releases happen from time to time. It is regrettable that they are not appreciated in the spirit in which they are granted.

Senator Henry called for a debate on education and I will arrange it. Senators Costello, Ormonde, Ross, Ryan, Keogh, and Tom Hayes expressed their concern about the teachers' strike taking place today. As I have said here many times on the Order of Business, until they all get around a table and start negotiating, progress will not happen. As Senator Ormonde said, the Minister has extended an invitation to meet the union and it has accepted it. I hope a solution to the problem will be speedily reached because at the end of the day students will suffer. We acknowledge and respect the great work of all teachers through the years and we also acknowledge the great changes that have taken place in Ireland have been aided by the standard of education for pupils.

Will there be a debate?

In the spirit of this holy time of Christmas, I hope family time will be acknowledged.

The rest of us want to participate in the debate.

I hope the unions will get around the table with the Minister and his officials and work out a successful conclusion.

What about our debate?

Senators Gibbons and Quinn again called on the Minister of Health and Chil dren to come to the House to debate food and water quality. I gave a commitment to allow time for this.

Senator Cosgrave called for longer contributions on No. 4. I propose that the principal speakers will have 30 minutes and all other Senators will have 20 minutes. I will pass on the Senator's views regarding the Courts Service.

Senators Ormonde and Finneran called for a debate on the role of An Bord Pleanála and the accountability of the board, particularly in light of the recent legislation passed by both Houses. I will schedule the debate for the first week in February 2001.

Senator Ross inquired about which Ministers were taking Bills today. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development will take the National Stud Bill, 2000, the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children will take the Appropriation Bill, 2000, and the Tánaiste will take the National Training Fund Bill, 2000. I hope there will be a full attendance and that there will be major contributions by Senators who have sought these Bills. I will take note of how serious Senators are in regard to the House sitting three days next week and will bear that in mind for tomorrow's Order of Business.

Especially on the Government benches.

Will the Leader need an assistant?

We will be under the Whip today.

Senators Farrell and Ryan expressed their shock and horror regarding alcohol abuse and the dreadful state of homelessness in which many people find themselves. I will discuss this issue with the Whips following the Order of Business to see if time can be allocated for a debate before the close of business tomorrow.

Senator Ryan referred to the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill, 1999. It has been withdrawn, as I stated in the House in the Senator's absence some weeks ago.

Mr. Ryan

Why is it on the Order Paper?

In response to Senator Callanan, the Whips will be consulted at the end of Second Stage in regard to taking the remaining Stages of No. 4.

I will pass Senator Mooney's views on to the Minister. They are appropriate in the context of the debate on the Nice Summit. I wish the Senator and his co-author well with their new book, Women in Parliament: Ireland 1918-2000.

Hear, hear.

It is absolutely magnificent and is a great read. I recommend it as a Christmas present for all people interested in politics.

The Leader proposed a change to the Order of Business to take all Stages of No. 4. We have no difficulty with that. However, the Leader did not inform us what days the House will sit next week. The reason I ask is that it is inconvenient for many people—

The Leader has replied. The Chair has no control over his reply and interventions after he has replied are not in order.

On a point of order, I asked the Leader, given that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development is coming to the House to take Second Stage of the National Stud Bill, 2000, whether we can spend time discussing the BSE crisis following the conclusion of that debate.

The Leader has replied.

We had a two hour discussion last week. The Minister will come to the House later.

Things have gone from bad to worse in the past week.

The Leader has replied. Senator Costello has moved an amendment to the Order of Business that a debate on the secondary teachers' pay claim be taken today. Is the amendment being pressed?

Of course it is.

Amendment put.

Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom.

Henry, Mary.Keogh, Helen.O'Dowd, Fergus.Quinn, Feargal.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cox, Margaret.Cregan, John.Dardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.

Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Costello and Ross; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.
Barr
Roinn