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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Feb 2001

Vol. 165 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, Electoral Amendment Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes and Senators may share time; No. 2, Agriculture Appeals Bill, 2001 – Committee Stage, to be taken at 4 p.m.; No. 18, motion 31 to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and No. 2 to be resumed thereafter, if not previously concluded. Business is to be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

I have no difficulty with the Order of Business. I want to send our good wishes to Archbishop Connell on his elevation today to the rank of cardinal and to note that the House is represented in Rome by Senator Joe Doyle who, I am sure, will represent us with suitable style.

We have no problem with the Order of Business. I add our words of congratulations to Cardinal Connell. I was not aware the House was represented and I am delighted to hear that.

The Law Reform Commission report concerning statutory drafting and interpretation – Plain Language and the Law – was published yesterday. The Attorney General held an international conference on this some months ago in Dublin Castle at which he asked me to speak. My eyes were opened at the opportunities to make the law much more accessible to the general public. This is something we should discuss here. I know that Senator John Dardis, whom I do not see here today, has views on this. I recommend that we have a debate.

I also raise the huge number of road accidents, a subject on which we have had discussions in the past. I believe there is a link between this and an item I have raised before, the large number of provisionally licensed drivers who have not passed a test. The last time we looked at that figure it was 400,000 who are allowed to drive but have not passed a driving test. On the Continent there is a system whereby a speed limit must be displayed on the back of a car driven by someone who has not yet passed a certain level of test and there is a similar system for trucks. There are things we can do to reduce the number of deaths on the road. We should debate this in the near future.

I ask the Leader of the House to facilitate us with a debate on the European schools survey on alcohol and other drugs as published in the newspapers today. The statistics show Ireland at the top of the league on drugs, drink, binge drinking etc. Other studies done in Limerick and the inner city in Dublin showed a huge drop in youngsters going to school in deprived areas, accompanied by a high level of alcohol consumption. Now that we have the material, we should debate the issue. The Minister for Education and Science has been doing some spin doctoring. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who is known for zero tolerance, tried to explain why there has been only one conviction for under age drinking, which is outrageous. It is time we had a debate in the House on this.

The Labour group is opposed to the Order of Business. We propose an amendment on the Order of Business to delete all words after "That" on No. 1, Electoral Amendment Bill—

You do not have an amendment to the Order of Business. You have an amendment to the Second Stage of the Bill, which is on the Order Paper.

That is the earliest formal manner that we can put down an amendment.

When we come to that matter you will have an opportunity to outline the reasons for your amendment.

What I am saying now is different. We are opposing the Order of Business because we do not want the Bill to be dealt with in this House until that section dealing with 50% increased spending—

When the question is put you will have an opportunity to indicate your opposition to the Order of Business.

I am addressing the Order of Business. I am not speaking to this amendment. The reasons we are opposing the Order of Business is that we want No. 1, the Electoral Amendment Bill, deleted entirely from the Order of Business and taken back to the Department of the Environment and Local Government until the section dealing with increased spending at election time is deleted. We see this as a smoke screen—

You have indicated to the House that you are opposing the Order of Business and that is sufficient.

It is a guise to enable the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to bring in increased spending. He is the national treasurer for Fianna Fáil and he is using this legislation as a guise—

Is the Senator moving an amendment that No. 1 be deleted from the Order of Business?

I move that No. 1 be deleted from the Order of Business. I am explaining why it should be deleted from the Order Paper entirely. It is inappropriate to have a Bill of this nature on the Order Paper because the Minister for the Environment and Local Government is the national treasurer of Fianna Fáil. It is inappropriate that the person responsible for fund raising for Fianna Fáil should introduce a Bill which will add £1 million to the coffers of that party for the next election.

The Senator has moved his amendment and that is sufficient.

This is an extremely important matter.

This is repetition.

It is important when opposing a Bill with which there is something fundamentally wrong to put on the record the reason for doing so. There is a serious fundamental conflict of interest in the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, the national treasurer for Fianna Fáil, introducing a measure whose main function is to increase the funding which will be available to that party for the next election.

The Senator is talking about the merits of the Bill, something he will have an opportunity to do on Second Stage, if the Bill comes before the House. The Senator has moved an amendment to the Order of Business that No. 1 be deleted from the Order of Business. I have given him an opportunity to outline briefly why he is moving the amendment and he has done so.

I am talking about the essence of the Bill.

It is not in order to talk about the essence of the Bill on the Order of Business.

The Bill per se is wrong and should not come before the House.

The Senator has said that six times already.

It is ethically wrong that this Bill should be before the House. There is a fundamental conflict of interest. Fianna Fáil is seeking to buy voters in the next election.

The Labour Party would know all about buying electors.

A Bill of this nature should not be before the House at all. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government should not introduce legislation which is a smokescreen for fund raising for the main Government party.

I have given the Senator much latitude.

I am opposing the Bill.

I understand that. The Senator has made it clear.

Senator Costello is disgraceful.

Order, please.

He has made a point four times. Once is enough to make a statement.

Order, please. Does Senator Costello have any other question to put to the Leader on the Order of Business?

I propose that we amend the Order of Business.

The Senator has already indicated that.

There is a request for an Adjournment Debate on the relocation of the Abbey Theatre. A number of Senators have already asked for a wider debate, incorporating the relocation. We also want to debate the role the Abbey Theatre plays in cultural life. Members of the House seem to think they have an ownership on the Abbey Theatre in their little patch in Dublin. Those of us oafs who come from the provinces believe that we have a right to have access to—

I ask Senator Quill to bear with me for a moment. The taking of an Adjournment Matter on the Abbey Theatre does not preclude further major debate on the issue. I cannot allow the Senator to pre-empt the matter tabled for the Adjournment Debate.

I appreciate that but I reiterate that a request was made by me and other Members to the Leader some time ago that a day be devoted to discussing the role the Abbey Theatre plays in cultural life. I again ask that this be done.

I join with the Leader of Fine Gael in congratulating Archbishop Connell on his elevation today to the rank of cardinal.

I wish to express my delight, if that is not too strong a word, that eventually the long running saga concerning the single regulatory authority for financial institutions appears to have been resolved. In that context, I congratulate the great Kerryman, Maurice O'Connell, on his reappointment as Governor of the Central Bank for a second term—

Hear, hear.

—and on his win in ensuring that the new regulatory authority will be the Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Services Authority and that it will be chaired by the Governor.

The headquarters will be in Killarney.

We are not having a debate on the matter.

I appreciate that. My word of warning is that the twin pillars could turn out to be unwieldy. However, we will await further developments.

Is that the Mitchell principle?

I would appreciate if the Leader could arrange for a debate on what I consider to be a very serious issue, that is, the ever increasing number of missing persons. There is not one county which has not been affected by this modern tragedy. At railway stations and bus stations there are notices from families looking for information on their loved ones. It would be helpful if the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform came into the House to discuss this matter with us. It is possible that we have not yet realised the seriousness of the matter and how fast it is growing. It is not sufficient to record these people as statistics and this House would do a great service to families if it made them a priority.

Will the Leader arrange for the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come into the House to debate the relationship, or lack of one, between the Depart ment and the National Roads Authority? At a briefing session yesterday morning on the proposed motorway between Nenagh and Limerick I learned that the existing bypass will be dug up and modified to join the new motorway. When I asked who was responsible for the lack of co-ordination I could not get an answer. It is shocking that these roads are developed in the context of the national development plan but nobody seems to have responsibility for digging up a bypass a few months after it has been completed.

I support the points made by Senator Costello in relation to the survey in the Limerick area carried out by a team from the Mary Immaculate College of Education. The level of absenteeism among children of five, six and seven years is a shocking indictment of primary schools in disadvantaged areas. These children will have no opportunity of leading a fulfilled holistic life. It does not relate solely to education; it also relates to social, health—

We are not discussing the report now.

I am asking that we have a debate on it. We hear of the interventions made by the Department of Education and Children in other areas. If there is such a high level of absenteeism in Limerick the Minister must introduce the necessary interventions and supports for teachers and parents so that there is a high level of attendance.

There will not be any need to discuss the report in the House if the Senator continues.

The recent comments by the Provost of Trinity College, Dr. Thomas Mitchell, a Mayoman, on the abolition of education fees and the State's investment in third level education deserve to be responded to. His criticisms are strong and stark in relation to disadvantaged students and the Minister for Education and Children should outline the Government's commitment to third level education and adult learning. It is important that his comments are responded to and that the Minister is invited to outline to the House the Government's commitment to education.

I formally second Senator Costello's amendment to the Order of Business. I join with other Members in congratulating Archbishop Connell on his elevation to Cardinal. I also look to another day when we can discuss the important sensitive issues on relations between the church and State which were raised by the archbishop in his recent interview.

The Leader indicated that he would enter negotiations to try to ameliorate the position of members of the staff of the House who are described as our secretaries but who prefer to be called our political assistants. I understand there will be a go-slow on Tuesday. I was served with notice – I think everybody was – that our telephones will not be answered on Tuesday. This is industrial action which will have an effect on us. We look to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to resolve this matter before Tuesday. The people involved were subject to much disturbance.

In response to the statements of the provost – his views are well known and were ventilated in a debate on education in this House within the last ten days or so – certainly those of us on this side of the House representing the universities made a point of quoting what Dr. Mitchell had to say with regard to grants and the Minister had an opportunity on that occasion to put the points of the Government.

I would modestly point out that it was I who raised the issue of the Abbey Theatre and I am delighted so many of my colleagues have taken it up. The House may be interested to learn of a close relationship between the theatre and this House because I have just got a letter from John Arden, the playwright, indicating that a complete re-enactment of the debate that took place last year in this House on the subject of a national paid holiday for women took place in Galway with both professional and semi-professional actors and was regarded as quite a dramatic highlight. Mr. Arden expressed himself as surprised at the dramatic content of Seanad Éireann.

Having listened to Senator Costello I am unsure whether we are on the Order of Business or on the Electoral (Amendment) Act. Assuming we are on the Order of Business—

Mr. Ryan

The Senator will put us right.

—I support Senator Quinn on his point regarding the number of deaths on our roads. While we have had debates on this matter in the past, the debate should be broadened. I ask the Leader for a full debate at an early date on the current status of the national development plan. While there are many contributory factors to the deaths and accidents on the roads, one which is not featured sufficiently is the poor condition of many of our roads.

The national development plan has within it the potential to create a whole new infrastructure. I ask the Leader to broaden the debate because this morning I heard people seeking compensation in regard to Dublin port tunnel. People with private residences talked about compensation of £1 million. Obviously that stands in the way of the port tunnel achieving its potential. I ask the Leader to arrange for a full debate on the progress of the national development plan, the agencies associated with it and the capacity of some of them to deliver the plan.

I support the amendment to the Order of Business as proposed by Senator Costello with regard to the taking of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill today.

The Senator will be able to do that by voting for the amendment.

I want to state why I am doing that. Without looking at the Bill, broadly it is impossible to understand how Members could allow it to come before us. Are we not aware that it is an affront to the framework—

On a point of order—

Senator O'Meara is discussing the Bill.

We should not take it because it is entirely contradictory—

On a point of order—

The Senator has already spoken.

—to the legislation on ethics and transparency which we brought forward in recent years specifically to restore confidence in politics. It is an insult to our democracy and Members should not tolerate it.

I ask the Leader to facilitate a debate on the effects of the proposed motorways and dual carriageways etc. on the life of people in rural Ireland. There are farmers in places such as Lisheenkyle, Castleampert and Athenry in Galway who will see their farms divided in two. The content of the debate should be on the package of compensation that is likely to be put in place for those farmers and the facilities that can be created by underpasses, overbridges and so on. While we do not want to stand in the way of progress we should not cut off the lifeblood of the nation, the farming community. A debate on motorways, dual carriageways and highways would be of great benefit and I ask the Leader to facilitate same.

I support the call for the amendment to the Order of Business. When Senator Walsh spoke he called the Electoral (Amendment) Bill an Act. It is not yet an Act, it is not even a Bill, it is a trojan horse to bring in surreptitiously funding, with which we should not agree.

We cannot discuss its contents.

I know I will have the opportunity later because I have no doubt we will be voted down on this, but this Bill should not be before the House today.

As a member of a minority, I join Senators Norris, Quinn and Manning in express ing congratulations to Cardinal Connell today. As a nation we should be proud of what he is doing. One does not have to agree with what he says to recognise that the man has convictions and he deserves to be recognised.

I agree with Senator Chambers who called for a debate on free third level fees. I do not want to get involved in controversy here, and there is no controversy about it. Specifically because that issue has been raised, particularly by the Provost of Trinity College, Dublin, it should be debated in this House as there is a misconception about it. People are of the view that fees contribute towards equality and fairness, but they do exactly the opposite. They benefit the better off and deprive the worse off.

Hear, hear.

Those people who could not afford to go to university still cannot afford it. Let us nail this lie and bring in the Minister because he will understand that point of view. He may be suffering from the misconception from which many other politicians have suffered.

Mr. Ryan

I do not want to risk your wrath, a Chathaoirligh, which is formidable when it is released.

The Senator is himself formidable.

Mr. Ryan

I support the proposal by the leader of our group to oppose the Order of Business. I do not think the issue on the Order of Business is about the substance of the Bill, but about the values in Irish politics. It is worthy of this House to say we believe on this side that the most important duty we have is to reassert the value of integrity in politics and the absence of the significance of money from politics.

Senator Ryan must bear with me for a moment. He will have an opportunity to make these points later today.

Mr. Ryan

I do not wish to have that opportunity, I wish the Bill to be taken off the Order Paper to avoid embarrassing those of us who believe money should not be allowed to corrupt politics. I do not want to be embarrassed by a debate on something that is inherently wrong and that reflects on all of us.

Senator Ryan, if the Bill is taken off the Order Paper the matter will not arise. If the Bill is not taken off the Order Paper the Senator will have an opportunity to make the points he is now making in a more relevant context.

Mr. Ryan

As I said, your wrath is to be respected and feared. I know there are many decent people on the other side—

The Labour Party is condescending.

Mr. Ryan

I came from the same stock. I know the worthy motive that used to motivate that party. What is on the Order Paper today besmirches the party of which I used to be proud.

Please, Senator Ryan.

Once again I call for a wide-ranging debate on education. We had a debate in Private Members' time on the whole area of third-level education, including fees. A number of people who were very vehement this morning in this regard did not get an opportunity to contribute to the debate two weeks ago. We wish to make a point about equality in our society. Senator Jackman has already alluded to the report from Limerick.

I agree with colleagues in relation to the Electoral (Amendment) Bill and regret that we are taking it in the form in which it is put before us this morning.

I offer our congratulations to Archbishop Connell on this great day on his elevation to Cardinal. He is the first Dubliner in 116 years and the first clergyman from Dublin since the foundation of the State to be elevated to such a post. I said previously in this House that he is a man of great faith who has been unfailing in his defence of the Church's teachings. His capacity for hard work, his great intellect, natural humanity and unquestionable integrity have earned him widespread respect. I wish him well and congratulate him. The Taoiseach is representing the Government at the ceremony and I congratulate RTÉ on covering on television this morning this historic event.

Senators Coghlan and Quinn called for a debate on the law reform report. I have no problem making time available for that debate. Senators Quinn and Walsh called for a further debate on provisional licence holders. Senator Quinn's suggestions in this regard are very worthwhile and I will pass them on to the Minister. There would be great merit in making time available to debate further the position proposed here this morning.

Senators Costello, O'Meara and Ryan opposed No. 1 on the Order of Business. When in Opposition, Fianna Fáil opposed the legislation and highlighted at the time that the allocation of money per candidate was not sufficient.

Mr. Ryan

It was not enough for Fianna Fáil.

(Interruptions.)

Who broke the rules in a by-election only a Labour Party candidate. I call for consistency and an air of realism.

Hear, hear.

To be fair and realistic, Fine Gael, the Progressive Democrats, the Independents and Fianna Fáil are not funded by a trade union.

We know who funds Fianna Fáil. That is the problem.

Some 40% of Fianna Fáil allocations fund the Labour Party's general election, local election, presidential election and by-election campaigns.

I must point out to the Leader of the House that these points can be made during the debate on the Bill.

I accept that, a Chathaoirligh. However, in the interests of consistency, I have always tried to be very fair.

Hear, hear.

Political opportunism is one matter but to be honourable, honest and fair must be the order of the day in any House of Parliament.

Senators Quinn and Norris called for a debate on the Abbey Theatre. I guarantee that time will be made available for a debate on this matter. The board of the Abbey had a very worthwhile meeting yesterday with the committee. I will dis cuss the matter with the leaders of the various groups today to see how the debate can be facilitated in the next couple of weeks.

I take on board the points made by Senator Coghlan, particularly the appointment of Mr. O'Connell, about which everyone is pleased. Senator Ó Murchú called for a debate on the increased number of missing persons. This is a tragic situation and I have no difficulty making time available for a debate on the issue. I will pass on to the Minister the views of Senator Jackman. Senators Chambers, Ross and Keogh called for a debate on third level education and the national plan. I will also allow time for this debate.

I will pass on to the Minister the views of Senator McDonagh. A debate on this issue would be worthwhile in the context of the national plan. In relation to the bypasses in Athlone and Longford, consultation and negotiation is the order of the day. No one should be asked to lose their livelihood unless it is absolutely necessary. As a member of a local authority, I believe negotiation and consultation is necessary when dealing with issues.

Senator Costello moved an amendment to the Order of Business, "That item 1 be deleted".

Amendment put.

Burke, Paddy.Coghlan, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.Keogh, Helen.

McDonagh, Jarlath.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Chambers, Frank.Dardis, John.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.

Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Quill, Máirín.Quinn, Feargal.Walsh, Jim.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Costello and Norris; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

Bohan, Eddie.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Chambers, Frank.Dardis, John.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.

Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Quill, Máirín.Quinn, Feargal.Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Coghlan, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Costello, Joe.Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.Keogh, Helen.

McDonagh, Jarlath.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Costello and Norris.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn