Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Apr 2001

Vol. 166 No. 1

Ordnance Survey Ireland Bill, 2001: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Cullen)

At present Ordnance Survey Ireland or OSI is a Civil Service office under the aegis of the Minister for Finance. The primary purpose of this Bill is to set up OSI as a State body outside the Civil Service. This will enable OSI to have the freedom to operate with a more commercial focus, subject to appropriate controls. The Bill also makes provision that OSI will be required to provide for the State specific services to high standards of quality and value for money in return for a subvention from the Exchequer.

It is worth recalling that Ordnance Survey Ireland has a long and illustrious history of providing a mapping service to the State. Ordnance Survey Ireland or, as it is more colloquially known, The Survey, was established in 1824 as a centralised agency to provide mapping for the State. However, no organisation is static and the role of Ordnance Survey Ireland has evolved greatly since its foundation. From the early 20th century, its role in support of Government services developed still further as mapping became an increasingly important prerequisite for land valuation, land registration and asset recording for local authorities and utilities. Today, the products and services offered by Ordnance Survey Ireland extend to the commercial sector and the unprecedented prosperity achieved under this Administration's stewardship of the economy has also been accompanied by a large increase in commercial demand for the products and services produced by OSI.

The environment in which OSI operates has changed dramatically in the most recent decades. Over the past 20 years map-making has been transformed from a hand-drawn activity to a digital process which employs the most advanced information technology. As a result, all maps in Ordnance Survey Ireland are now stored digitally rather than in paper form. This means, for example, that customers who call to OSI headquarters or OSI agents can now get within minutes a specially printed map for anywhere in Ireland which meets their particular requirements.

The advent of cheaper and more efficient technology has also led to the emergence of geographic information systems or GIS. GIS combines map data with computer software to produce a powerful tool for analysing information. GIS is now an important part of the information society and there are hundreds of companies throughout the world producing thousands of GIS products. Among the myriad ways in which GIS can be used by the commercial sector is to link their customer data with map data to identify new business opportunities. These new applications have considerably broadened the customer base for mapping data and the prospects are that the demand for new and improved products and services derived from this data will continue to grow strongly for a long time to come.

It is against this changing background that the Government came to the conclusion that the restrictions imposed by its Civil Service status limit OSI's capacity to meet its customers' demands and to exploit new opportunities in the marketplace. Hence the necessity to bring forward this Bill to transform Ordnance Survey Ireland into a separate State body with a strong commercial remit. This conclusion has been validated by the findings of the interim board of OSI. In June 1997 the outgoing Government agreed to a proposal by the Minister for Finance to establish an interim board to advise the Minister for Finance on and to oversee the transition of OSI to a more commercial organisation. In April 1998 the interim board set out in a report its vision for the future of OSI. It suggested that OSI has considerable scope to develop the market for its products and to reduce the size of the State subvention. The interim board concluded that the fundamental organisational change needed for OSI to fulfil adequately its public service responsibilities and to anticipate wider customer demands in the fixture would be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve within the Civil Service.

The interim board reflects a wide range of users of OSI products and of other interest groups, including employer and employee groups. It is headed by Mr. Kevin Bonner, former Secretary General of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and consists of representatives of the wholesale booksellers trade, the Irish Mountaineering Council, chartered surveyors, local authorities, IBEC and ICTU. I take this opportunity to compliment the chairperson, Mr. Bonner, and the other members of the interim board on the excellent work they have done to date.

A further reason for this Bill is to rectify the existing unsatisfactory situation where, despite its 177 year existence, there is no primary legislation governing OSI. All previous legislation, particularly the 19th century statutes, refers specifically to boundary survey work which is more relevant to the chief boundary surveyor who is attached to the Valuation Office. This Bill will rectify this and allow OSI to carry out its functions based on a sound legislative framework.

Despite the change in status under this Bill, the OSI will continue, as it did for the previous 177 years, to provide mapping services for the State's administrative, legislative and infrastructural needs. These fall into four main operational categories: the updating and maintenance of the framework on which national mapping is based and on which very many industries such as construction, surveying, transport and air navigation depend; a programme to complete soon a new mapping infrastructure for rural Ireland; an ongoing maintenance and development programme to ensure that urban and rural tourism and leisure mapping databases are up to date; and a developing marketing and sales function to ensure that products and services are developed to meet the needs of public and private customers. The Bill provides that the OSI will continue to be the State's national mapping service and will operate in the public interest by creating and maintaining the definitive maps and geographical information of the State, including those areas that it would not be commercially viable to map.

In order to provide the State with the quality services it needs, the OSI, despite its commercial focus, will continue to need Exchequer subvention. A financial scoping study, commissioned by the interim board to show what would be the OSI's financial position as a stand-alone commercial body, suggested that, on the basis of the revenues then being generated, the OSI's costs would leave an annual deficit for the foreseeable future of more than half its revenues.

The amount and the terms and conditions of the Exchequer subsidy will be in a service agreement between the OSI and the Minister for Finance. The agreement will set out in detail the range of activities OSI will carry out in the national interest. It will describe each such activity, the justification for and benefits arising from it, and details of the deliverables to be provided by OSI, including their standard and quality. It will state the amount of the subsidy to be allocated to each of the individual activities. An important benefit of the service agreement is that, in clearly identifying the national interest element in mapping, it will prevent the cross-subsidisation from the public purse of the OSI's commercial activity.

The Bill provides that the service agreement between the Minister for Finance and the OSI may contain terms and conditions of product pricing. The OSI's pricing policy should adhere to the principle of ensuring that maximum use is made of its products and services by all sectors of Irish society, public and private.

The Bill provides that OSI, when engaging in commercial activity, may do so through subsidiary companies with limited liability set up under the Companies Acts, 1963 to 1999. Any necessary capital for such companies will not come from the public purse but will be raised in the marketplace on the basis of the project's commercial merits. There will be no cross-subsidisation of commercial activity from the Exchequer, either by way of capital or running costs.

Measures in the Bill to ensure that there is no cross-subsidisation by the Exchequer include clear statements of the OSI's public interest functions, the requirement for a service agreement with the Minister for Finance to deliver specified public interest outputs in return for Exchequer money, and provision to establish separate limited companies by the OSI to operate on a purely commercial basis for each commercial product. OSI will operate transparent accounting practices to identify and separate commercial and non-commercial activities. It will also implement a fair and transparent pricing policy to ensure that its basic data is available to competitors in the marketplace on the same terms and conditions as to its subsidiaries.

OSI is preparing for its future as a commercially focused entity through the use of leading edge technology, to which I have already referred. Substantial sums have been allocated to OSI in recent years to ensure it uses up-to-date map production techniques. OSI is leading the way in the use of satellite positioning and is currently implementing a network of permanently operating global positioning system receivers for the country. This system is expected to be operational by the end of the year and will be controlled from a central computer in OSI headquarters. Similarly, OSI has a very advanced in-house geographic information system, or GIS, that is used to store all collected digital mapping data and for the supply, editing and management of data. It is anticipated that supplying GIS users with digital mapping products will be a major area of business growth.

In investing substantially in technology OSI has not neglected to invest in its staff, which is its major resource. The training of staff in new technology has been under way for many years. The Minister for Finance sanctioned a number of new managerial posts in anticipation of the move from the Civil Service, including a human resources manager, a corporate services manager, a marketing manager and an IT manager.

I would like now to refer to the staffing arrangements of the new body now that it will be operating outside the Civil Service. Ordnance Survey staff will cease to be civil servants on transfer to the new body. Meetings, including one with the Minister for Finance, have been held with staff association representatives to inform them at various stages of these plans and they are fully aware of the Bill's provisions on this and all other matters. The staff associations have welcomed the setting up of a semi-State body and are aware that their future, and that of OSI, lies with continuing to adapt to changing technological and user needs.

Negotiations on a wide range of issues of concern to staff will continue with associations and unions in a partnership framework. It is intended that all staff currently employed by the Ordnance Survey will transfer to the new body. There are standard provisions in the Bill to ensure that pay, terms and conditions of employment, including superannuation benefits, are maintained in the new body. The OSI's headquarters in the Phoenix Park and its six regional offices located in Cork, Ennis, Longford, Kilkenny, Sligo and Tuam are not affected by the Bill. The question of the relocation of OSI's headquarters in the Phoenix Park, acknowledged not to be ideal for a modern mapping organisation, will be decided on in the context of the Government's decentralisation programme.

Through continually adopting the latest mapping technology over many years, the staff of OSI has achieved a complete transformation of all aspects of map-making. OSI has been brought to a point where it has potential for dramatic expansion of, and improvement in, the range of products and services which it can provide to customers. The achievement of this potential depends on the staff of OSI fully supporting the proposed new structures. I am confident this support will continue to be given if there is consultation at all stages.

I will now outline for the House the key provisions of the Bill. Section 3 formally establishes a new body to be known as Ordnance Survey Ireland which will have its own powers and will be separate from the Civil Service. Section 4 sets out in detail the functions to be performed by the body. The OSI's general function is to provide national mapping services for the administrative, legislative and infrastructural needs of the State. The OSI will be the national mapping service in the State and will operate in the public interest by creating and maintaining the definitive maps and geographical information of the State. In other words, OSI's traditional role for the last 177 years will continue. This section also places a general duty of care on the new body to conduct all its business, both commercial and non-commercial, in a cost effective and efficient manner.

Sections 5 and 6 allow the Minister for Finance to give directions to OSI and to confer additional functions on it. Section 7 allows OSI to establish subsidiary companies with limited liability when engaging in commercial activity. It is a key element of the Bill that the OSI, when engaging in commercial activity, does so through subsidiary companies with limited liability set up under the Companies Acts, 1963 to 1999. Any necessary capital will not come from the public purse but will be raised in the marketplace by reference to the commercial merits of the project concerned. There are two main advantages to this approach. First, the Exchequer's liability in potential loss making situations is limited and, second, in keeping commercial activity separate from national interest mapping activity, cross-subsidisation from the Exchequer is avoided.

Section 8 allows OSI to hold and dispose of shares or other interests in a company with the Minister's consent. Section 9 allows the OSI or any subsidiary to borrow money but the Minister may set ceilings on such borrowings.

Section 10 gives OSI staff powers to enter private lands and premises in connection with the carrying out of their functions. It also authorises OSI to place survey marks on any land or premises for the purposes of supporting the national grid, geodetic or height frameworks. Where an authorised person is prevented from entering lands or premises when carrying out OSI functions, the Bill provides for a warrant to be obtained from the District Court to allow required access. Obstruction of a member of OSI staff in the exercise of his or her powers under the section will be an offence, as will the intentional destruction or removal of an OSI survey mark. A person found guilty of an offence under this section will be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £1,500.

Sections 11 to 13 provide that there shall be a board of the OSI and that members may be remunerated from funds at the disposal of OSI. These sections also contain the provisions in regard to the appointment of a chairperson and deal with the meetings and procedures of the board of OSI.

Section 14 provides for the appointment of a chief executive officer. The chief executive officer will be appointed by the board and will hold office subject to the terms and conditions which may be determined by the board with the consent of the Minister for Finance. The chief executive officer will be responsible for the staff, administration and business of OSI. He or she will be the person charged with the day to day running of the new OSI and the carrying out of its functions under the Bill and will be answerable to the board. The chief executive officer will be responsible for the propriety of OSI's accounts and the economic and efficient use of its resources. He or she will also be answerable to any committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas set up to examine OSI's affairs.

Sections 15 to 17 outline the provisions for the transfer of staff from the Civil Service to the new body. Staff will cease to be civil servants on transfer to the new body and these sections contain the provisions for their remuneration and superannuation. There is a guarantee that the pay and terms and conditions of employment, including superannuation benefits, will not be less favourable in the new body than those prevailing before the changeover date. Sections 20 to 22 provide for the disclosure of interests by staff, members of the board of OSI and directors of a company set up as a subsidiary of OSI.

Section 25 provides that the Minister may make an agreement – entitled a "service agreement"– with OSI which will deal with the performance of its public functions. This is a key element of the Bill. The service agreement will set out in detail the range of activities OSI will carry out in the national interest and the amount of the subsidy from the Exchequer for so doing. A further important benefit of the service agreement is that by clearly identifying the national interest activities of OSI, it will also prevent the cross-subsidisation from the public purse of any OSI commercial activity.

Section 27 provides for the keeping of accounts and the conduct of audits of the financial accounts of OSI. Responsibility for the accounts rests with the chief executive officer. The accounts will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the audit report will be laid before the Oireachtas.

Section 28 provides that OSI will make an annual report to the Minister. Section 30 expressly allows the OSI to charge for its products and services. Sections 32 to 36 deal with the dissolution of the existing Ordnance Survey and the transfer of assets, liabilities, contracts and pending legal proceedings to the new body.

The Ordnance Survey was established in 1824 to provide a national mapping service. The operational environment has changed dramatically in recent years and there is now a need for OSI to become a more clearly focused business organisation while at the same time continuing its public service role. This Bill allows the OSI to build on the strengths it already possesses and provides it with the freedom to operate with a more commercial focus while at the same time ensuring appropriate public policy safeguards. I commend the Bill to the House.

For Members' information, I am due in the Dáil immediately for Question Time but I will return as soon as possible. I apologise for this clash between my responsibilities.

Mr. J. Doyle

The Bill's purpose is to establish OSI as a separate State body. The Ordnance Survey office, located in Dublin, has a long and interesting record extending from the early years of the State until well after the last war. The Ordnance Survey reflected faithfully the state of the country, which was mainly agricultural at that time, with little or no change in city and rural areas.

It was only in the 1950s that Dublin, in particular, began to change as the population slowly grew as a result of the drift in population from rural to urban areas. In recent years that drift has turned into a rush, which has created many of the socials problems which exist today. If the Ordnance Survey office was to deal with this change, it needed to be modernised.

The modern Ordnance Survey dates from around the mid-1960s when a Government committee, set up to look at the state of mapping in Ireland, made sweeping recommendations such as a re-survey of all urban areas, revising and re-mapping of rural areas, revising and updating of tourist maps, etc. Implemented in the early 1970s, the new policy brought new thinking and new challenges to the Ordnance Survey and with them new buildings and of course new technology.

New technology has radically changed the role of the Ordnance Survey. With modern technology, creating maps is light years removed from the way it used to be done. In the past, people sat down at their desks and worked with immense skill and application to produce maps of precision and beauty, works of art in their own right, and re-generating a map used to take years. Today it takes hours. Map makers often leave their office to go home in the evenings leaving a computer to print out their day's work and come in the following morning to find the map prepared. This modern technology has allowed Ordnance Survey to move aggressively into a broader role as a supplier of an ever-wider range of information. All urban areas in the country have been re-surveyed and are now in digital form. Rural areas have been re-surveyed, based on area photography and electronic imagery.

In its mapping functions today, the Ordnance Survey is motivated towards what the customer wants. A good example of this is that instead of producing a general tourist map of any area, the Ordnance Survey will produce some specialist maps. These maps will be to the benefit of tourists who are interested in hill walking and rock climbing. Tourist research has shown that there is great demand for maps that specialise in these areas. There is also a wide range of specialist maps dealing with the monastic period and medieval Dublin.

For local authorities mapping is essential for a wide variety of purposes. The greatest local authority use for mapping is in my local authority, Dublin Corporation, where there is a stock of 23,000 maps of the city. Even the oldest maps are essential in establishing present day property rights. The history of mapping in Dublin Corporation is much older than the Ordnance Survey, dating back to the 1670s.

The most profitable role for Ordnance Survey is likely to come from the business and commercial world where the application of computer-based technology has opened up countless avenues for map use and the sort of information which maps contain. A typical instance would be underground plant maintenance involving such organisations as Eircom, the ESB or local authorities and using what is called geographic information system technology or GIS. A large-scale mapping database can be superimposed electronically on, for example, a grid of underground gas pipes. The collective image which results is micro metre perfect, marrying the Ordnance Survey map with the gas grid. This can then be used to produce a working plan on the site and give much quicker and more concise access to relevant data. Other utilities which avail of this facility are Eircom and the ESB. These electronic mapping methods can be used for other purposes and An Post has started to devise the most efficient delivery routes for its postal delivery workers.

The agricultural sector has also benefited from the new technology. Farmers have used maps more than anyone since the service was established because they own more territory than most. A map is needed for every sale of land. Many farm holdings are fragmented but if the farmer is able to supply OSI with his farm number, even if it is a fragmented holding, a map can be produced showing his property. This saves a lot of farming and administrative time, addressing as it does the difficulties farmers have with dispersed lands.

These technological advances have resulted in the emergence of many new opportunities for OSI but currently the restrictions imposed by its Civil Service status limit its capacity to exploit them and meet customers demands. This legislation assists the transformation of Ordnance Survey Ireland into a separate State body with a commercial remit which will continue to carry out its traditional mapping functions for the State. Ordnance Survey Ireland has achieved a complete transformation of all aspects of map making over recent years and, as a result, is now at a point where it has the potential to expand and improve the range of products and services it can provide. The Bill allows Ordnance Survey Ireland to fulfil that remit.

The Bill follows the usual form in setting up a State body, in the appointment of a chairperson, a board and a chief executive but when it is passed the staff of OSI will lose their Civil Service status. I note from what the Minister has said that meetings have taken place with the staff and the staff association and that certain guarantees have been given to them in the Bill. If the staff are happy with these guarantees then I am only too pleased to support the legislation.

Mr. Finneran

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Cullen, and the legislation before the House.

I pay tribute to those working in the Ordnance Survey who have provided the State with such a wonderful service over the years. They are those who are hidden away but upon whom we depend for the relevant maps which are so necessary to the many transactions carried out daily, monthly and annually. This Bill, while it acknowledges that major contribution, is taking the Ordnance Survey work into the 21st century. It is setting up a State body with a brief to continue the work that has been done for the past 177 years and providing it with further opportunities to move into the commercial field. That opens up the possibility of work in the private sector and I am pleased the legislation incorporates that.

New technology made it inevitable that the Government would legislate for this new body. The whole process of drawing up and amending maps has changed dramatically in recent years due to information technology and scientific advances. As someone from an agricultural background, I still find it difficult to understand how an ordinary field on a family farm can be identified so vividly on an area aid map, which I understand is superimposed using technology. Many farmers find this difficult to understand. It brings modern technology right into the family farm.

Area aid and holding maps are now very important for agricultural activity and are required when applying for premia and grants. New technology, therefore, is playing a part in some of the most remote areas of our land. It is available to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development to peruse in order to establish people's rights as regards what they should receive under particular schemes.

Another area of vital importance is the whole area of mapping town and city expansion. This was brought home to me very vividly recently when considering the county development plan for my own county, Roscommon. The chamber of commerce of Roscommon town pointed out to me that the map presented to the council was completely out of date and bore no resemblance to the present town.

Having a commercial body involved with the local authority system will be important and creates a new situation. Local authorities have a responsibility to keep up with the changes taking place inside their functional areas. They should have up-to-date maps for all of the reasons that I have mentioned and, in particular, for the area of tourism which has moved into second position among the country's leading industries.

The business and commercial sector will have a vehicle that was not available in the past when the Ordnance Survey Ireland was solely a public service and people could only purchase a map from the survey office. This legislation will create a situation where not alone will the public service, the Government, Departments and local authorities be guaranteed the most modern mapping system, but the private commercial sector will also be able to avail of these services. Joint ventures between this new semi-State body and other bodies will also become possible. Commercial companies can be established to take advantage of that. This is a major change in the level of activity of the Ordnance Survey, and the opportunity presented by this new body, Ordnance Survey Ireland, will take mapping beyond being a reliable support to Government and into the 21st century.

I am intrigued by Senator Joe Doyle's comments regarding underground mapping. It must be a feature of the future and underground activity must be part of the development of Ireland in the 21st century. It is obscene that sufficient levels of ducting are not provided in major road projects to accommodate necessary services. I will give an example. When it was necessary to lay a fibre-optic cable across the Shannon in Athlone, the new bypass, which is only a few years old, had to be ripped up to accommodate the necessary ducting. Surely it should have been possible ten or 12 years ago to have mapped out and installed ducting in that £36 million development to accommodate services, not only the fibre-optic cable but also gas lines and whatever else. That should have been thought of at the time and mapped out by the Ordnance Survey. This would have meant that relevant public and commercial companies who needed to lay cables would only have had to consult the map of underground ducting to identify the route through which they needed to conduct their services.

The level of destruction by public companies in the provision of ducting is a cause of great upset. An underground system of ducting is as important as the footpath system because it provides for necessary services on an ongoing basis. It should be provided and a map made available so that people could identify the route their services would take.

The first ordnance survey was taken 177 years ago and the survey marks left in appropriate places throughout the country are intriguing. It was a lesson in history for me when I saw group water schemes being extended to rural areas some years ago. The engineer surveying for the group scheme was able to tell from the map that there should be a mark on a foundation stone in a specific location. It intrigued me that, after removing some rubble, he found the mark on the stone. From that he could tell the height and where a pumping station needed to be located. The people who conducted that first ordnance survey did wonderful work with limited technology in comparison to what is available today. It is appropriate that we compliment them and those who have worked in the Ordnance Survey office in its 177 years of activity.

Senator Doyle said the mapping system for Dublin dates back another 60 or 70 years before that. A mapping system was in place for the city prior to the Ordnance Survey office.

Mr. J. Doyle

Since 1670.

Mr. Finneran

That was long before the Ordnance Survey. It is all part of our history but it is also an important part of the infrastructure of the country today.

Finance is an area about which I have questions. What is the cost to the Exchequer of running the service? The Minister of State said the office would only be able to meet about 50% of its costs through revenues. What will be the projected annual running cost over the next five years? Surely in a sound commercial setting a body such as this doing such vital work should provide a great opportunity to raise revenues.

I am pleased negotiations have taken place between the Government and the staff of the Ordnance Survey and that an amicable arrangement has been reached. No one wishes that people would be imposed upon. It is important that does not happen to the staff of the Ordnance Survey office who will now enter a commercial State body and who will no longer be civil servants but public servants. Their positions, conditions of employment and pension rights must be guaranteed.

It is also important people are not imposed upon in the context of the ongoing discussion on decentralisation, something which may involve the Ordnance Survey in future. According to information available to me, six sub-offices are located in different towns throughout the country. This new body, Ordnance Survey Ireland, may in future be located outside the Phoenix Park in some town in the midlands or elsewhere. There is an ongoing debate on decentralisation and the relocation of 10,000 civil servants in various towns and centres of population. No more than the voluntary and agreed change from civil servant to public servant, it is important the relocation of people involves the same type of consultation and a similar agreement.

I remembers some years ago the General Register Office was transferred to Roscommon town. It created a great hullabaloo at the time and was a welcome decision. Within days we discovered the majority of staff did not want to relocate and had never wanted to. They are still located in Dublin city. We do not want a similar situation to arise in the context of any new relocation of staff to the regions. It is important the regions are built up. The national and EU emphasis is on developing them, especially the Border, midlands and west region, to bring them in line with the rest of the country in terms of income. That is a side issue which is tied to the issue of staff.

This is a good decision. It recognises the reality of new technology and the opportunity it presents to this new body to map in a new way, which extends also to the commercial sector. I commend this legislation to the House.

Mr. Norris

I welcome the Bill. It is welcomed by all parties in the House, which makes me wonder why there are so many advisers – I count six. Perhaps they were expecting a huge assault or probing questions of a technical nature. They are all welcome. While they are here, I am sure they will have pleasure in admiring the contours of the ceiling, which is another production of the Georgian period. The Ordnance Survey just squeaks in under George IV. My only hesitation would be to seek a reassurance that the public function of the Ordnance Survey would not be in any sense inhibited by a diversion of energy into the public market, because it must first serve the needs of the State.

Reference was made to the history of the Ordnance Survey in Ireland. It is remarkable that there was no mention of the military aspect. This office, which is a very important one, was established principally as a method of imperial administration, and there was at least some degree of military application in terms of road networks and information which would be of use to the military. A distinguished former Member of this House, Brian Friel, wrote a very important play called "Translations" which centred on the question of the Ordnance Survey. That play brought to prominence another aspect of the Ordnance Survey, the recording of the names of townlands and that the Ordnance Survey is a record of a cultural shift that was quite painful for many people. There are all kinds of significance in the historical background of the Ordnance Survey Office.

The Minister stated that a question hangs over the relocation of the Ordnance Survey's headquarters in the Phoenix Park. I take a particular interest in this because of the physical plant there. I speak about the headquarters itself, the building which, if my recollection is correct, was a hunting lodge owned by Luke Gardiner, one of the principal property developers in the 18th century. One of the reasons the building is unsatisfactory is that it has not been properly maintained. There are problems of damp penetration and rot, and there is a problem with the roof. I hope that when the Ordnance Survey vacates this premises it will be turned to proper advantage by the State, perhaps as some kind interpretative centre, although I do not know whether another interpretative centre is needed. The building should at least be secured and made accessible to the public. I very much hope this is contained in the Minister's plans.

With regard to the reaction of the staff, I welcome the fact that negotiations have been successful. The Minister states that there has been a general welcome. In the detailed analysis of the key provisions of the Bill he states that there is a guarantee that the pay and terms and conditions of employment, including superannuation benefits, will not be less favourable in the new body than were those prevailing before the changeover date. That is very much to be welcomed. In parenthesis, let me say that I know the Minister indicated that, like myself, he has a heavy cold or a touch of influenza. That must have suppressed his sense of irony. Otherwise when he came to section 25 he might have caught some rather curious and amusing cadences because the phrase "in the national interest" occurs on a number of occasions. Perhaps, like me, he watches that marvellous programme "Bull Island", in which a Member of the other House continually intones that mantra. One is, of course, gratified that parts at least of this Bill are brought through this House in the national interest.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is in the Seanad, not on Bull Island.

Mr. Norris

Sometimes one is aware of the possibility of bilocation. The surreal atmosphere in the House sometimes leads to that.

It is appropriate that we in this House should pay tribute to the outstanding work and artistic quality of many of the maps, to which Senator Doyle in particular referred.

Mr. J. Doyle

That will be lost.

Mr. Norris

I hope it will not be completely lost. Even if the artistic quality is lost in a narrow sense, I hope that, at least, the very fine degree of detail is maintained. I am not quite sure – perhaps Senator Doyle can inform me on this – whether what I am about to refer to is from the previous generation of maps which were created by the offices of Dublin Corporation. In my own researches in North Great George's Street, for example, we have had recourse to the productions of the Ordnance Survey Office, and they are extraordinarily detailed. From what I take to be Ordnance Survey maps, which were issued to me as such, it is possible to tell the layout of the 18th century gardens of Dublin's inner city down to the level of the planting pattern of trees and the disposition of paths in the gardens. The degree of detail that is available is quite extraordinary.

This is not just true of the city but of the countryside. My roots, like those of most Dubliners, are firmly ancestrally in the bog, in my case in County Laois. The wonderful book by John Feehan about County Laois, which incorporates a geological survey, comments on agriculture and so on, is very definitive, almost an encyclopaedia of Laois. I was delighted when I bought it to discover that the cover consists of an off-print from the map of what was then the Queen's County and that right in the centre of it is my grandfather's house, Spring Gardens. It gives one a wonderful sense of location to find in one's home county, one's grandfather's house right in the centre, thanks to the Ordnance Survey. One can actually tell the shape of the house, the bow windows and so on. The Ordnance Survey has acquitted itself extremely well historically in terms of the country.

The Bill seeks to bring this office into the era of modern technological change, the age of information technology. I am not very gifted in the world of computers which I leave to my colleague, Senator Quinn who, I am sure, will have much to say because he has pioneered this work in the House. In my day I used to see people training for the Geological Survey and the Ordnance Survey in Trinity College with their theodolytes and their tapes and their rulers. It was there that I first came across the phrase "bench marking" which now has another and more intriguing resonance.

I welcome the Bill. It is very important that we bring the operations of the Ordnance Survey up to date. I have a question about the future disposition and fate of the headquarters in the Phoenix Park which is a very important building. I want to be reassured that the privatisation of a section of the work of the Ordnance Survey will not inhibit its public functioning. I welcome the fact that this move has been welcomed and agreed to by members of staff in the Ordnance Survey.

I permit myself one further comment which follows from Senator Finneran's speech. I was not quite sure how relevant it was, but since he has opened it up I will comment on it. I refer to the question of ducting. Senator Finneran made a very eloquent attempt to introduce it directly as being under the remit of this Bill, but I am not sure that it is. He has certainly hit on a very important point. As a city dweller, I find it quite extraordinary that every second day a different utility opens up the roadway. I am sure this is also the case with county and urban councils in other areas. This work is often put out to tender to companies which dig up the road, shovel a load of tar on top and later reopen the road for something else. The whole thing is a complete mess and a waste of time and money. If only somebody would grasp this nettle, centralise the operation and put a major, easily accessible channel under the road, the majority of services could be accommodated. I am not sure how that ties in with the Ordnance Survey Ireland Bill but it is a point worth making.

Mr. Bonner

Having listened to Senator Norris, I realise that a function of the Ordnance Survey in future could be to survey such areas so that future generations will not have to suffer as we have with road works being reopened. The information will all be there in black and white. Few public organisations have been in existence for over 175 years as the Ordnance Survey of Ireland has. It is a great tribute to its staff that the organisation has survived for almost two centuries. The Ordnance Survey is stronger than ever and this legislation will ensure that it continues to be so.

The Ordnance Survey was established in 1824 and while I do not claim to be as well briefed on British imperialism as Senator Norris, it is one of the aspects of British rule that we should be thankful for. Over a period of 177 years the Ordnance Survey surveyed the country, with its staff, both past and present, providing accurate and detailed maps of high quality. When I was at primary school I was always amazed that geography maps on the wall contained nothing but the limited detail of county boundaries, place names and towns. The Ordnance Survey maps, however, even at that stage, provided much greater detail of historic sites, including the martello towers in County Donegal.

The world is changing and so is the Ordnance Survey – it has moved from the days of copper plates and measuring chains to modern day technology. Today, the survey adopts a scientific approach to mapping the country's physical features. While the Government needs clear pictures of the country's physical landscape, the public sector also relies on good mapping and geographical information. Good quality mapping is needed for the development of many aspects of modern day Ireland, particularly transport infrastructure and land registration. We are all aware of the delays that can arise when dealing with the Land Registry, but I hope in future matters will move more swiftly with the digitisation of maps.

The construction industry and, as Senator Doyle mentioned, our growing tourism and leisure industries, are among the many sectors that rely on the Ordnance Survey to supply mapping needs. Such geographical information is required for the continued good performance of the economy in the information age. The Ordnance Survey has developed significantly in recent years to meet the demands of the many customers it serves. It has improved the service to the public as demanded by the Government under the strategic management initiative.

Its original purpose was to provide maps for the State and the State's administrative and legislative functions, but it has expanded to provide a wide range of products and services for commercial and industrial users. New technology has transformed the work of the Ordnance Survey, which has moved from manually prepared maps to digitised data. The market places many demands for new improved products. Ordnance Survey Ireland is currently limited in the services it can provide while operating within the public service. The legislation will enable Ordnance Survey Ireland to become a separate State body with the ability to deliver its services to the public and private sectors. The new body will continue to provide the State's mapping needs for administrative and legislative purposes.

Having heard the Minister's guarantees, the Bill will secure the future of the staff currently employed in the Ordnance Survey. Apart from pay and conditions, the Bill provides for the establishment of a proper pension scheme. Recently a number of Bills before the House related to the privatisation of State companies and share options. No such provisions are contained in this Bill, although one never knows what may happen in future – perhaps the Ordnance Survey will be privatised. The staff should hang in there because one never knows what windfall may arise for them.

The Minister for Finance can still direct the new body and confer additional purposes on it, if necessary. This is one of the areas about which I am slightly worried. Over the years we have seen many State bodies removed from the powers of a Minister or Department – I am referring to bodies such as An Bord Pleanála. Sometimes when one reads the inspector's report and the decision of the board, one is totally baffled. There should still be some political influence via the Minister for Finance. When one writes to the Minister for the Environment and Local Government about planning matters one is told that he has no direct input. We have had great difficulties in Donegal with valuations being struck by the Valuation Office. When one writes to the Minister for Finance one is told that he has no input and no control but Ministers have control sometimes, when it suits them. Valuations done by people based in Dublin are based on Dublin rents.

Mr. J. Doyle

I will depend on the Senator's support when the Valuation Bill comes before the House next week.

Mr. Bonner

I will have to consider that, if I am here. People based in Dublin have no idea of commercial activity or the value of commercial property in rural areas, particularly areas that are nearly 200 miles away. The National Roads Authority was also established in Dublin but sometimes one would wonder on what basis it operates. When one contacts the authority one is told that the Minister is the master and has provided the money. When one contacts the Minister, however, he says he has no input and the NRA is a separate State body. I do not think that could happen in the same way with the Ordnance Survey which is involved in more technical mapping work. Politicians might not have the same input or need for involvement in it.

The new body will be able to sell its products in new commercial areas. The Bill provides for the appointment of a board and a chief executive officer who, while not a member of the board, will be able to attend meetings and brief the board.

The Minister has instructed the new service to try to break even, taking into account the subvention. I find it difficult to see how that could possibly happen, however, unless the subvention is of a proper magnitude. The Minister also mentioned the possibility of receiving a dividend but based on the type of service being provided that could be a long way down the road.

The Bill provides for the Ordnance Survey to minimise its cost base, while at the same time providing good quality service. The Minister expects the new body to provide proper standards of ser vice and to charge accordingly. Many people in the private sector will have no difficulty with that. If people are getting a good service, they do not mind paying for it. The Bill also states that the new service will be subject to a value for money audit and that the commercial accounts have to be provided on an annual basis. I read somewhere that they have to be provided and printed within six months of the year's end.

I wanted to touch on a number of other items. Senator Doyle mentioned tourism in particular. In a county like Donegal, the tourism product has not been developed much over the years but in recent years, particularly with Deputy McDaid as the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, hill walking and climbing have become a great feature of the tourism industry in Donegal and all of the maps, and the detail on those maps, can be provided by this service.

Senator Finneran mentioned area aid. While we have experienced difficulties in the past two or three years with area aid applications, those difficulties are becoming fewer because of the type of mapping and surveying that is being done.

Many of our archaeological and heritage sites are coming under great strain, with the possibility of them being destroyed due to the boom in the economy and all the construction work that is taking place. I hope that the Ordnance Survey service which, until now, has provided the details of these sites will be used more by planning officers because planning officers spend a great deal of time dealing with minor problems when deciding on a planning application, yet that application may involve a major historical site. In terms of the N14, I am aware that a prepared route is being chosen in Donegal. The Donegal Historical Society wrote to the NRA over four months ago and it still has not received a reply. Those people are working on the ground and they got this information from Ordnance Survey maps which show our great historical heritage, particularly in and around the Lifford area.

There are many other items I could discuss including SACs and European directives in relation to some of the scientific evidence, with little reference to what is happening on the ground, but due to the time restraints I cannot do so. I commend the Bill to the House and I hope everything will work out for the staff who have provided such a good service. I also hope that the guarantees in relation to conditions, pay and pensions will work out. This is the only service the British left us that I appreciate and even though Senator Doyle was concerned about some aspects of the Bill, I wish the service well over the next 177 years.

Mr. Quinn

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, to the House. I welcome the Bill and the contribution earlier of the Minister of State, Deputy Cullen.

It was interesting to hear Senator Bonner talk about what the British left us. When I first saw the Bill I thought it was interesting because it takes me back to 1979 when the then Government decided to separate the post office from telecommunications and to set up two bodies. When I compare this process to the establishment of An Post I realise there are similarities but also differences.

It was interesting to hear Senator Doyle talk about the copperplate writing, the art and the traditions. Those similar traditions existed in the old post office. Incidentally, I believe it was 1840 when the penny post was set up, which was about 17 years after the establishment of the Ordnance Survey office. An Post has managed to maintain that tradition and I hope it will be maintained in the Ordnance Survey office as it continues.

Another comment made concerned the headquarters. When An Post was set up the new body got possession of all the property, with the exception of the GPO which was regarded as a national heritage site; it was the only site An Post did not get. I wonder to what extent will the headquarters of the Ordnance Survey office be maintained and recognised because it would be a shame if anything happened to it in the years ahead.

I am reminded of the value of the Ordnance Survey office which we tend to forget. We had a problem in the supermarket business in the 1970s when the holy hour was in operation in Dublin city and we could not sell alcohol between 2.30 p.m. and 3.30 p.m. but it could be sold in the county. We had a supermarket under which the river flowed through a big tunnel right down the centre of it. We had to go to the Ordnance Survey office to find out exactly where the river went and to establish whether we had to close the off-licence between 2.30 p.m. and 3.30 p.m. If my memory serves me rightly, we were able to continue serving alcohol between those times.

We sometimes forget the many aspects of the survey office. We do not realise the way it impinges on all our lives and that it will continue to do so in the future, particularly in the area of planning where the rules and regulations to protect the environment and our heritage are becoming more important. The traditions of the Ordnance Survey office, therefore, are becoming more necessary.

I want to outline some of the challenges that face the Ordnance Survey office which are similar to those which faced the post office. The one that has been highlighted here is the need to recognise customers. In his contribution, the Minister of State recognised that and one of the reasons for establishing this office as a separate independent body, although State owned, was the commercial needs and the recognition that we are not just talking about the general public. They are customers who now have competition.

Another major change the office has faced up to, and will continue to face in the future, is technology. I was travelling in a car in Britain a few months ago – there is a reference to this in the Minister's contribution – which had the geographic information system, GIS. One could tell whether one had gone too far from the map in the car. The driver could assess the position and input directly into the system the desired route. It was fascinating to see the accuracy of those maps. We have that skill in the Ordnance Survey office and it will not be difficult to do this. If the office does not do it, somebody else will and it will face competition again.

I want to ask a number of questions which I am sure can be answered. Why is this new body being set up under the Department of Finance? Surely it should come under the Department of Public Enterprise. We are talking about public enterprise but the attitude appears to be that because the Ordnance Survey office always came under the Department of Finance, it will stay under that Department. That is incorrect. It should be set up under the Department of Public Enterprise.

The second question goes back to the customer bias that is needed. How will this body charge for its services to the State and how will it charge for its services in commercial terms? I recognise the requirement to set up subsidiary bodies to this independent body, and I assume they will be able to compete with other commercial enterprises, but how will they make sure there is no cross-subsidisation? An Post had that problem also. It was competing with couriers and it set up its own courier service, which is doing very well, but it was open to the accusation from the couriers that it was being subsidised by the State because it could operate under cost. Is there a possibility of that accusation in this case? I am sure it is being examined but I would like an explanation from the Minister of State.

Senator Bonner said something which was not quite correct, and I would like to see a correction by way of an amendment. The report to the Minister must be made within six months each year but it does not put an onus of responsibility to publish that report. I would like to see the report going to the Minister within three months and published within six months. I believe that is in section 28. I would welcome such an amendment.

I am rather concerned about section 10 in terms of the freedom of the citizen. We seem to lose our rights so readily nowadays. In the eight years that I have been in this House there has been a number of Bills ceding to other bodies the right to invade our own homes and properties. The fight against drugs and crime has strengthened that trend. We have handed over to the Revenue Commissioners and the Competition Authority the right to invade our homes and gardens. We have another one here giving the right to the Ordnance Survey to enter. It does differentiate between entering your home and entering your garden, but it does mean they can enter your property. Having gone to court they can enter your home as well.

These are some of the areas where we as citizens are ceding some of the ancient rights that we always had. Are we sure it is necessary to the services of mapmaking and the Ordnance Survey that we ought to be willing to cede these rights? I am not sure. I question whether that is necessary.

I welcome the Bill and the intention behind it. The vast majority of sections are designed to make sure that the Ordnance Survey will last another 177 years.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

I know the Ordnance Survey extremely well as I was raised beside it in the Phoenix Park. It is the old Mountjoy barracks, originally a cavalry barracks. As one of the earlier speakers mentioned, it is probably one of the oldest Departments of State, preceding the Post Office. I think it provided mapping services for Trollope when setting up the Post Office. It has continued to provide an excellent service to the State in the mapping section. There is no place in Ireland which has not seen an inspector or a surveyor from the Ordnance Survey not once but repeatedly down through the years. It is to be seen in the excellent maps. Even in rapidly changing urban areas the maps are up to date. The excellent Dublin map changes once or twice a year, giving up to date information on new estates, roads, motorways, etc.

I would like to refer to the preservation of Irish placenames through the Placenames Commission, which is situated in the Ordnance Survey. Without this department many of these names would have been lost. The developers, in Dublin especially, are doing their best to eradicate any trace of Irishness in the placenames.

Mr. O'Toole

Dublin County Council and Dublin Corporation are not doing too badly either.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

I do not want to praise myself, but some years ago I successfully introduced a motion in Dublin Corporation requiring developers to get planning permission before they could use a placename. It is observed more in the breach than anything else. I woke up one morning to find myself living beside a Kempton. Hampton is another one, not to speak of Tuscany Downs and Thornby and other such places that bear no relation to Ireland. The developers keep pushing ahead with their efforts to eradicate any trace of Irishness, especially in the urban areas. In Cork city I saw Pic du Jer Park, another interesting Irish name that features prominently in the developers' advertisements in the Irish Examiner on a Saturday. The Placenames Commission has done much. It has produced some books on Kerry where it has gone into great detail on local placenames. It is very important that these placenames are kept and not lost to posterity. The Ordnance Survey has a long history in the development of modern Ireland. Its role in the provision of maps showing how Ireland has developed has been largely unsung.

Although it is not mentioned here, I think there are two other Departments of State which are responsible for title and property. We know how dear the ownership of property is to the Irish heart. They are the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds. Bringing all three under one umbrella in the future might streamline the work of the legal profession in transferring deeds and titles. I wish to welcome the Minister to the Chamber, bringing this Ordnance Survey Bill before us. It is long needed, has been much delayed and will probably be the first of many Bills dealing with property.

Mr. O'Toole

Many of us had our first introduction to the words "ordnance survey" at post-primary school when learning how to read maps, etc. The Ordnance Survey does a tremendous job. I never travel without having an ordnance atlas of Ireland in my car. I can say the same for all my family. I am never stuck in traffic on main roads because the Ordnance Survey maps have such extraordinary detail that it is possible to go anywhere using their maps. I compliment them on that.

The general thrust of this Bill is to be welcomed, but there are a number of issues I want to raise. I wish there were more references to technology in the Bill. If I am in Wexford and I want to get to Banagher, I find it is easier to click on to some technology or IT application like Route 66 to work out the best route. Even though it is made in America it is possible to input Banagher or Wexford and get an immediate map of the direction, distance, best roads etc. I would like to see that made available in Ireland soon.

I would like to see the Ordnance Survey people taking on board the importance of technology. I stand to be corrected, but as far as I know there are many road vehicles throughout Europe, such as taxis and even private cars, which operate on a global positioning system which relates the car to its exact position within a couple of feet based on geo-stationary satellites. It does not appear to be available here, or was not the last time I checked. The Ordnance Survey should move this forward and ensure that we are at the leading edge of technology. I have no doubt that the personnel in the Ordnance Survey have the ability to get this moving. Additional resources should be made available for them to do that.

Let us look at the Ordnance Survey and begin with its name. The word "ordnance" has a military background deriving from the assistance provided by cartographers, mapmakers and surveyors to the army. This gave them best practice and location for the business of war. They then moved forward to the present. I would not like to see the Ordnance Survey being left behind. I recently saw advertisements for maps of Ireland and parts of Ireland marketed by an international body. It is possible that the raison d'être for the Ordnance Survey office could be overtaken by technology in other countries. It is easy for a company in Manhattan to download maps, cartography and information, including satellite information, and prepare documentation perhaps with economies of scale in terms of the resources behind them. This would provide a threat to our own office that I would not like to see.

I am glad Senator Costello has entered the Chamber because I wish to state that one of my regrets is that, at this particular moment of our history, the word "benchmark" does not appear in the Ordnance Survey Ireland Bill. I intend to find an excuse to raise that matter on Committee Stage because I want the term "benchmarks" to be included in the section to which I refer. I hope I will be indulged in that regard because I want to explain to people that the term "benchmarking" did not originate with car manufacturers but that it was in use 177 years ago and that there are many benchmarks throughout our country. We understood the term "benchmark" when we were ten years of age and we continue to understand it now that we have reached 50 years of age. I would like the term to be properly enshrined in the legislation so I will return to this matter on Committee Stage.

I will now reflect on some of the comments put forward by Senator Fitzpatrick. I am delighted that one of the objectives of the OSI will be "to depict place-names and ancient features in the national mapping and related records and databases including the Irish language equivalent of place-names as advised by An Coimisiún Logainmneacha and declared in place-names orders made under section 2 of the Place-Names (Irish Forms) Act, 1973". As far as I am aware, that is a new requirement and duty. The Minister of State must ensure that Ordnance Survey Ireland will have the power to inform local authorities that particular placenames are incorrect and should no longer be used. Appalling damage is being done to placenames throughout the country.

I have in my possession a book entitled Logainmneacha which dates from 1935 and which I found in the Oireachtas Library. The final paragraph of the réamhrá states: “In aon chúig bhliain amháin gheofaí teacht ar Ghael-ainmneacha furmhór ár mbailte is ár bparóistí ach cur chuige i gceart agus ba chóir don Stát tabhairt faoin ghnó sin gan mhoill”. In other words, it would only take five years for a certain number of staff to draw up a list of placenames. Some of the changes made to those placenames are offensive and intellectually unacceptable and I wish to provide a number of examples.

I moved to north County Dublin approximately 30 years ago and I live quite close to a townland near Lusk called Man-O-War, which is an unusual name but I chose it because many Members may be aware of it. When I checked the origin of the name to see if it had a maritime connection, I discovered that it was simply a corruption of the Irish title, An Meán Bhóthair, given to the middle road between the coast road and the inland road to Drogheda. It is perfectly understandable that, when translated, An Meán Bhóthair was corrupted to Man-O-War. I have no difficulty with this because we cannot control the assimilation of language. However, I am dis turbed that some genius in the county council decided to translate Man-O-War, to which the townland is referred to on maps, into Irish. The result is that signposts in the Balbriggan area now refer to Man-O-War or Long Cogaidh. It is only a matter of time before someone states that the place was named after a fighting ship because of its location near the sea. That kind of nonsense should not be allowed because it destroys local heritage.

Another example of changes made to place-names involves Larkhill, which is adjacent to Beaumont Hospital on Dublin's north side. Larkhill is a corruption of the old Irish name Lár Choille, which referred to the fact that hundreds of years ago the area was situated in the centre of a wood. It is easy to understand how Lár Choille became Larkhill. This is another form of assimilation, which cannot be controlled. It is unacceptable, however, that some genius in Dublin Corporation has decided that the Irish translation should be Cnoc na Fuiseoige. I could provide a hundred different examples of such changes to placenames and when I am driving through the countryside and I see them on signposts I almost always crash into a hedge.

Ordnance Survey Ireland should ensure that Lár Choille, which became Larkhill, does not become Cnoc na Fuiseoige and that Meán Bhóthair, which became Man-O-War, does not become Long Cogaidh or Fighting Ship, with which the area had no connection whatever. This is a matter of great cultural importance and I welcome the provisions in section 4 in this regard. I request that information on their implementation be provided in the relevant reports.

I raised the following matter informally with the Minister of State and I ask him to take on board my concerns about it. Under section 4 it is stated that one of the functions of OSI shall be "to provide mapping and related geographic information to the public and private sectors in support of social, economic, legislative, security, business and administrative functions and requirements". That is fine. However, I reiterate what I said earlier, namely, that the first interface anyone present had with the words "ordnance survey" was when they were at school. To ensure that children continue to be educated to read maps, etc., the word "educational" should be added to the list contained in the section.

I will now deal with a number of other issues. Before the Minister of State at the Department of Finance re-entered the House I requested that the word "benchmark" be enshrined in the legislation to explain to others what it actually means.

It is stated in section 11(9) that "A member of the Board may at any time be removed from membership of the Board by the Minister if, in the Minister's opinion, the member has become incapable through ill-health of performing his or her functions, or has committed stated misbehaviour". Will the Minister of State indicate the kind of stated misbehaviour which could lead to a member's removal from the board?

I welcome the fact that my reading of the Bill has added to my knowledge. I did not know the meaning of the word "geodetic", but I consulted a dictionary and discovered that it refers to a new mathematical approach to land surveying. I welcome the fact that there will be a national boundary surveyor and I wish him or her well in that work.

Section 7(1) allows for the establishment of subsidiaries. However, subsections (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6) seem to be utterly unnecessary in that a company establishing a subsidiary would normally be entitled to take the actions to which those subsections refer. I am always concerned about enshrining in legislation the power to do something which would have been assumed in any event and which leaves matters open to challenge if the relevant provisions are not adhered to in a precise manner. Will the Minister of State explain the need for the subsections to which I refer?

In the interests of defending the rights of Members of the Oireachtas, which I do with great diligence when the opportunity arises, I ask the Minister of State to take on board the following point, which caused the parliamentary counsel and not his officials a number of difficulties. Why are Members of the Oireachtas excluded from holding certain offices? In my opinion a provision in this regard is almost automatically written into legislation and I want someone to inform me why a Member of the Houses of the Oireachtas could not serve as a member of the board of OSI. This matter involves Members' personal rights. In the event that people believe otherwise, I wish to state that am not seeking a position on the board. However, I believe the reasoning behind section 19 is offensive to Members of the Houses. It is not acceptable that the Bill should state that a person cannot be a member of the board while serving as a member of a local authority, a Member of Seanad Éireann, a Member of the European Parliament or a Member of Dáil Éireann. There is no reason this should be the case. People with expertise in those areas should not be excluded. It seems to me that this is being done gratuitously, unthinkingly and certainly unnecessarily.

Having expressed those concerns, I welcome the Bill and I ask the Minister of State to consider the minor amendment which I intend tabling on Committee Stage. I wish the Ordnance Survey well in its next 177 years. It is doing excellent work and those of us who appreciate maps are indebted to the people involved.

Mr. Costello

I also welcome the Minister of State to the House. The issue raised by Senator O'Toole about representation on the board is always a bone of contention. Whenever it arises, we ask why Members of either House, or elected public representatives generally, are excluded, in much the same way as criminals or bankrupts, from membership of any State body. No satisfactory explanation or justification has ever been given for that.

The Ordnance Survey office in Phoenix Park is within my constituency and I have been there many times. I have noted the excellent work done there and the modernisation which has taken place over the last two decades at OSI headquarters. It represents virtually light years of progress from the former manual mapping process to the computerisation and digitalisation which is now the order of the day. It is remarkable how quickly any area of the country can be brought up on screen and a map produced in a matter of seconds. It is a magnificent resource, which has rapidly become part of the information technology sector.

One is reminded of Brian Friel's play, "Translations", and his portrayal of the British army involvement in ordnance survey mapping work, with particular reference to the corruption of Irish placenames which occurred in the anglicisation process. There was no proper understanding or research into the origins of Irish placenames. The exercise simply involved getting an English approximation of the sound of the Irish name. There is much work to be done in that regard. It is regrettable that so many local authorities tend to follow a rather middle class, television-style approach to the naming of streets, roads and new residential estates. The Ordnance Survey office could play a useful role in this context, as a resource for local authorities. It should be part and parcel of the local authority process of naming streets and estates to consult with the Ordnance Survey office and to ascertain the traditional background to placenames of the area. There should be a requirement to take cognisance of the rich tradition and history which is to be found in every corner of this island. This would help to get rid of some totally inappropriate names which tend to crop up.

I hope the central office of the Ordnance Survey will continue to be based in Phoenix Park. I note the statement by the Minister of State that the location of that office and the operation of its six regional offices are not affected by this legislation. However, he went on to say that the question of relocation of the OSI headquarters in Phoenix Park, "which are acknowledged not to be ideal for a modern mapping organisation, will be decided in the context of the Government's decentralisation programme". That is a very ominous statement. I do not see why the Phoenix Park location is not ideal. There is plenty of space available and extensions can be provided.

Mr. Cullen

The reference was to the historical building and its present occupier.

Mr. Costello

That relates to just one building. There is a plethora of buildings. The present location of the offices is like a courtyard. I see no reason why an extension would not be satisfactory. The headquarters of the Ordnance Survey should remain at its historical location. Obviously, the Government has certain decentralisation plans, but surely in this case it should be based on further extension of the six regional offices, to allow for expansion of the work of the OSI.

There is great potential for such expansion. Irish people, at home and abroad, are seeking their family origins. A facility for mapping the geographical location of the family origins would be no less interesting than the family tree as such. There is a commercial opportunity for the Ordnance Survey in that regard. If that office does not take it up, others will do it. We have seen how the Mormons developed the concept of a database of Irish family names in an international context. It is now as easy to get information on your family background in Utah as it is in Dublin.

We need to look more closely at the issue of copyright and how it is to be protected. The Bill refers to copyright of existing data, in the context of the board's functions under section 4(2): "To protect the Government copyright in OSI records, databases, products and published material." It refers to existing material. What is there to prevent anybody with the necessary technology from doing their own mapping of Ireland by satellite and putting a range of products on sale on the Internet, without using any of the existing copyright which is to be protected under this provision? We need to consider this matter very quickly. Virtually any geographical location in the world is open to satellite observation and mapping activity.

With regard to the composition of the board, I see no reference to gender equity. Has any thought been given to that? The numerical composition of the board seems rather strange: "A chairperson and not less than four, or more than nine, ordinary members." That is a rather extravagant gap between the minimum and the maximum. Surely the number of board members should be specified more precisely, with provision for replacement if required? I also wonder why the minimum is an even number, while the maximum is an odd number. Perhaps the Minister of State will explain the reasons.

The omission of any reference to worker directors on the new board is also noteworthy. Is there any involvement by the employees in the actual structure of the board? What representation is intended for the staff? Although they will be transferring from the present Civil Service type of structure to a more commercially based board, that is no reason for excluding staff representation. I would like to hear from the Minister of State on that issue.

The Minister of State said that "negotiations on a wide range of issues of concern to staff will continue with associations and unions in a partnership framework". He also said that all staff currently employed will transfer to the new body. That seems rigid. I know it is not true that all the staff want to transfer to the new body. If a new body is established, there is a procedure whereby those who wish to stay in situ in the Civil Service can do so while those who wish to transfer have the option of doing so. It is like the decentralisation process where people are not forced to decentralise. People should not be forced to leave a work structure, such as the Civil Service, and move to a different commercial type work structure. I am not saying one is better than the other.

The Minister of State stated that all staff currently employed will transfer to the new body. That will lead to controversy and difficulties in staffing associations which must be dealt with. Has the trade union staff association agreed to this new structure? It seems the negotiations are ongoing and that decisions have been taken without agreement. At what stage are the negotiations and what degree of satisfaction has been articulated by the trade union sector on this matter?

I do not oppose the establishment of the body. I applaud the good work done by Ordnance Survey Ireland. I hope the new body will promote the wider use of the rich vein of information available to it in terms of the geography and cartography of this country not just for the indigenous population, such as the farming community, estate and property owners, local authorities, etc., but also for the international market. I hope we market all the information available to us. I hope there will not be a requirement for State subvention in the future. I look forward to seeing how this new body operates. If agreement is not reached with the workforce on all the matters in dispute at the initial stage, it might be an inharmonious way to begin. I await the Minister of State's response to the matters raised.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Cullen)

I thank the Senators for their contributions. I apologise again for not being here as I could not be in the two Houses at the same time. I regret missing the debate because, judging by the notes given to me, great interest was shown in this Bill by the Members and many interesting and constructive matters were raised. We will have an opportunity to tease out the detail of the contributions on Committee Stage.

OSI finds itself in a modern framework where the world has changed dramatically in the context of the way it delivers its services and the range of services it can deliver. Senator Costello referred to the competition it clearly faces. While OSI will be able to protect its data, it is open to anyone else to do their own business. That is why OSI must compete in the marketplace to stay at the cutting edge of technology and to deliver the type of services required in a competitive environment. That is a central reason OSI needs to come out from under the strictures of the Civil Service structure and to be able to form companies and compete in the marketplace. That is welcomed by all concerned, including the staff.

All Members mentioned the staff of OSI. That is why I clearly signalled in my speech the key areas, as far as the Government and the staff are concerned, of existing pay and conditions, particularly pension and superannuation rights. These issues must be finalised. They are being discussed with the staff at present in a harmonious way. There was a meeting last week which was positive. Major issues have not been raised, apart from the fact that the unions and the staff want these matters finalised before the body is set up. That is also the Government's view and that will happen before the final transition from OSI's present status to its new semi-State structure. There is a good partnership framework within the company and that is the forum being used to move the agenda forward.

Senator Costello mentioned the worker directors. Although the Bill does not explicitly provide for worker directors, it is open to the Minister to appoint a worker director. We will wait to see what happens in that regard. We want OSI to operate in an harmonious industrial relations setting and a positive competitive environment in the context of the services it will provide. The partnership framework in OSI will lead its transition into a semi-State structure.

Senator O'Toole and Senator Costello mentioned placenames. The role of OSI is to take on board existing placenames. I agree with the points made. There is a bastardisation of important placenames in Ireland today. Local authorities should use existing meaningful names instead of allowing people to modernise, for the sake of it, names which are meaningless and do not have any historical reference point. In many cases the original name is misunderstood when translating it from Irish into English. I regret the number of estates with traditional English placenames which are more familiar to the United Kingdom than to Ireland. It does not add anything to the addresses of the people who live there. They might have an immediate impact, but they do not enrich an area. I agree with the views expressed by Members on this issue, but responsibility lies with the local authorities.

Senator Quinn made many points, including one about cross-subsidisation. This is a fundamental part of the Bill. It will be assured through the service contract drawn up between the Minister for Finance and OSI in terms of the delivery of its State functions. The market functions in terms of the services it might provide on a commercial basis will be delivered through the subsidiary companies which will be set up. I made the point in my speech that the funding for those subsidiary companies will not come from the State. That will be led by market demand and financial assessment of the marketplace to support and fund those companies to provide the services. They will be market driven and supported and funded through the normal channels that any profitable company would seek to operate. That will be the role of OSI. Nobody denies there will be huge opportunities.

The service agreement will define what the State requires, why the Minister is giving the subvention, and what the OSI is expected to deliver. There will be other arrangements put in place which the Bill allows for.

Senator O'Toole and others asked why a Member of the House cannot be on the board. This is a standard provision in legislation. I subscribe to the Senator's view, but politicians on both sides of the House are their own worst enemies. We have almost made life impossible for ourselves in many activities by using base political argument in different circumstances on different issues to make political points. This has undermined politicians and the political process in recent years. That is regrettable. I am not blaming one side of the House or the other. Collectively, we have moved ourselves into this mode and we would do well to move away. We should treat our profession with the respect it had in the past. The behaviour of certain Members in all parties has lowered the flag of respect for politicians. It is up to us to restore that respect. When confidence and trust are restored, the possibility of Members of the Oireachtas with expertise on various matters serving on boards will arise, excepting obvious conflicts of interest.

Mr. J. Doyle

That section states a person cannot serve as a board member if elected to the European Parliament or a local authority, but if a person is only nominated for election to the Houses of the Oireachtas he or she must leave the board.

Mr. Cullen

It is transparently defining the ground rules. That is the condition of the political system. I regret that, but we must restore the trust and respect that most politicians deserve. Because a few damaged the majority, we are going through this painful process, which I hope will conclude soon. We ought to restore the mantle of a hard working, honourable profession. All Members in all parties, and Independents, work hard in public life.

Senators Finneran and Bonner mentioned rural mapping. I stated that this needs to be undertaken and updated. The modern detailed, digital mapping of rural Ireland that we need will be done. There are existing guidelines on gender balance on the board and these will be applied.

I hope I have addressed all the points raised. If not, I apologise. During the Committee Stage, Members will have the opportunity to raise issues. All points raised on what I should do on that stage are noted. Senator O'Toole's suggestion about education will be incorporated if possible.

I thank the Members for their contributions and look forward to Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 10 April 2001.