Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Jul 2001

Vol. 167 No. 12

Ministerial, Parliamentary, Judicial Offices and Oireachtas Members (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 2001: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy)

I was particularly conscious when I introduced a similar Bill in 1998 that despite detailed consultations, one case I considered meritorious had been left out of the Bill. This time I told dozens of my colleagues that I did not wish to have this happen again and, with that warning ringing in their ears, I arranged a succession of meetings with virtually every group in the Dáil and Seanad over a period of several months. The Bill includes virtually all proposals put to me which did not have too high a cost or significant knock-on effects across the public service.

Despite this and despite my meeting many of those who would be affected, a few matters were raised in the past few days after the Bill was circulated. I was anxious to facilitate these changes, although there are dangers in making apparently simple changes to a corpus of legislation dating from 1938. The time available did not allow the full implications of those changes on the Bill to be worked out and I reluctantly abandoned that approach. I had already indicated that virtually all of these would be dealt with in the forthcoming Oireachtas Commission Bill.

It is my intention that the Oireachtas Commission Bill will be in place before the next election. If I am not in office myself, the Bill might not be pushed by the new Administration, whoever that might be, or by another Minister for Finance, even if he or she was from my political party. I hope to have the Bill ready before the election and I am sure the Department of Finance will be anxious to progress it as quickly as possible. However, in case it does not, I intend to make sure the Bill is in place.

There have been comments regarding the complexity of this Bill. These are understandable in that the Bill is lengthy. Legislation governing pay, pensions and other work conditions are scattered over individual statutes going back over 40 years and many subsections of those Acts have been amended several times in the interval. I have accepted the advice of the parliamentary counsel that the legislation governing the pay of Members of the Oireachtas, ministerial and parliamentary office holders and members of the Judiciary would benefit from some refinement, and this Bill tidies up some of those provisions by rewriting specific sections of the 1938 Act. Unfortunately, it involves repeating, word for word, various subsections of earlier Acts which are not being amended by this Bill. However, the changes proposed by the parliamentary counsel will serve to bring greater clarity to some important elements of it.

I propose to deal with each of three major strands which run through the Bill. The pay of Senators, like other Members of the Oireachtas, is examined from time to time by the review body on higher remuneration in the public sector. The review body, which was established in 1969, is a standing body whose primary function is to advise the Government on the general levels of remuneration appropriate to higher public servants, members of the Judiciary, Members of the Oireachtas and other political office holders. The review body carries out general reviews of higher remuneration in the public sector every four years. Its most recent general review was carried out in the course of last year and its report was published by the Government at the end of January. In line with the established policy of accepting the recommendations of this independent review body, the Government decided to accept and implement the recommendations in its report.

The main recommendations of the report concerning Members of the Oireachtas have already been put into effect by Government order. This Bill gives legislative effect to the recommendations of the review body concerning the payment of long service increments to Deputies and Senators and the payment of an allowance to Ministers of State who routinely attend meetings of the Government.

The report of the review body recommended that the salary of a Dáil Deputy should be set at the ordinary maximum of the grade of principal – standard – in the Civil Service and that the salary of a Senator should be fixed as 70% of that of a Deputy and should be revised for the future on that basis. The review body went on to note that long service increments are payable to principals in the Civil Service. One long service increment is payable after three years satisfactory service at the maximum of the scale and a second is payable after six years satisfactory service at the maximum of the scale. A principal entering the grade at the minimum of the scale would have to serve seven years in the grade before becoming eligible for the first long service increment and ten years before becoming eligible for the second. The review body indicated that the introduction by the Government of long service increments for Deputies and Senators would not be incompatible with a link to the grade of principal, provided the service as a TD or Senator required to qualify for long service increments was comparable to that required of principals. The Government decided to introduce long service increments on this basis.

The review body went on to say that the introduction of long service increments for Deputies and Senators should not result in a situation where different rates of remuneration apply to Ministers. This situation could come about because the remuneration of office holders is made up of an office holder's salary plus the salary of a TD or Senator. Accordingly, the application of long service increments could result in Ministers who are Members of the same House being paid differently, depending on whether they qualify as a TD for two, one or no long service increments. The review body considered that the principle that all Ministers are paid the same remuneration is an important one and that the arrangements for the introduction of long service increments should ensure that a common rate of remuneration continues to apply to Ministers and Ministers of State. Likewise, it considered that their introduction should not result in other office holders being paid in excess of the rates it recommended for their posts.

Accordingly, the Bill provides that Deputies will be eligible for one long service increment after seven years and a further increment after another three years service – the same will apply to Senators. As a result of an amendment I introduced in the Dáil, total service in the Oireachtas will count towards the payment of long service increments, rather than just service in the House in which a Member is serving. Long service increments will apply with effect from 25 September 2000, the date of the review body report.

In line with the Government decision on the phasing of the review body's recommendations, which applies to all groups covered by the report, long service increments will be introduced in four phases between 25 September 2000 and 1 April 2002. The rates in the Bill are for 25 September 2000, the first phase of the review body increases. Subsequent increases will be applied by Government order, with the full increases due being paid on 1 April 2002. In keeping with the recommendations of the review body, however, ministerial and parliamentary office holders will be paid the standard rate for a TD or Senator, as appropriate, and will not receive long service increments for the duration of their terms of office, regardless of their length of service in the Oireachtas.

The review body also considered the position of Ministers of State who routinely attend Government meetings. There are currently two such Ministers of State – the Minister of State with special responsibility as the Government Chief Whip and the Minister of State to the Government. The review body considered that these Ministers of State carry additional responsibility which warrants remuneration additional to that payable to other Ministers of State and that they should receive an allowance equivalent to that payable to the chairperson of the Committee of Public Accounts and the chairpersons of certain other committees. Accordingly, the Bill provides that such an allowance may be paid to not more than two Ministers of State who routinely attend meetings of the Government and who are designated by Government order.

I have also decided to add the position of assistant party Whip in the Dáil to the positions in the Dáil and Seanad that currently receive an allowance in recognition of the important work carried out by the Whips in ensuring the smooth running of Dáil business. This allowance will apply to parties with seven or more members in the Dáil.

One of the positions currently in receipt of an allowance is that of Leader of the Seanad. I need hardly remind Senators of the sterling work carried out by the Leader in organising the business of this House and the onerous responsibilities assumed by him. Accordingly, the Government has decided that the Leader should be paid as an office holder and that the allowance currently paid to him will become the salary attaching to the post.

The Bill also provides that Deputies, Senators, ministerial and parliamentary office holders and those holding positions that attract allowances will be able to refuse a pay increase if they should so chose. It has long been a cause of concern to me that Members of the Oireachtas who express their concerns about pay increases for politicians find themselves in the unfortunate position of having no choice but to accept those pay increases themselves.

Mr. Connor

Poor Deputy Joe Higgins.

Mr. McCreevy

I am happy to follow the established Government policy of accepting the recommendations of the independent review body which, since its establishment in 1969, has made recommendations on the remuneration of not just politicians but also members of the Judiciary and top posts right across the public service. These recommendations have at all times been based on in-depth research and careful assessment of the appropriate position of the posts concerned within the general economy. However, if any Member of this House believes that a pay increase is not appropriate, I see every reason for giving him or her the opportunity to refuse it. The Bill provides for this. A refusal will apply to a particular pay increase and further notice may be given if the individual wishes to refuse subsequent increases. An individual may later decide to rescind the refusal, but only from a current date, that is, arrears will not be paid. If there is any Member who is unhappy with a proposed pay increase, now is their opportunity to say thanks, but no thanks.

Mr. Connor

We have one in this House.

Mr. McCreevy

I do not know if there is such a Member in this House but I told a Deputy in the Dáil in 1998 that I intended to oblige him on the next possible occasion. Bringing forward this section is my way of obliging him.

I now turn to the sections which have to do with pensions. These are sections 11 to 19, inclusive, and section 29, which deal with pensions and severance allowances for office holders, section 27 which covers contributions to the Houses of the Oireachtas (Members) pension scheme, and sections 45 to 59, inclusive, which deal with transfer of pensionable service.

I am introducing a number of amendments to the pension and severance allowance regime for Ministers and other office holders. I have reviewed these superannuation entitlements and come to the conclusion that a number of the existing provisions need to be amended to take account of the role and responsibilities of office holders and bring certain of the provisions relating to spouse's and children's pensions more into line with modern practice. In addition, I am providing for the transfer of pensionable service into and out of the pension schemes for Members of the Oireachtas, Irish Members of the European Parliament, the Judiciary and court officers.

As Senators will appreciate, the pension provisions of the office holders' pension scheme are complex. Sections 11 to 19, inclusive, of the Bill provide for certain amendments to the pension and severance payments available to office holders and their surviving spouses and children under the Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Act, 1938, to which I shall refer as "the 1938 Act" while speaking about office holder pensions. Besides providing for these amendments to the scheme, I am taking the opportunity, on the advice of the parliamentary counsel, to tidy up a number of the pension sections in the 1938 Act, which will help to explain the reason we are dealing with so many pages on pensions in this Bill.

The Bill provides that, instead of an allowance, the Leader of the Seanad will be paid a salary as an office holder. The position will be pensionable as a secretarial office under the office holders' pension scheme and section 11 provides accordingly by naming the position of Leader of the House in Seanad Éireann as a secretarial office for the purposes of the scheme, with effect from 17 September 1997.

At present, a former office holder who has the necessary service qualifies for a pension under the office holders' pension scheme if he or she is 55 years or older. However, it is possible for a person who is aged between 50 and 55 years to opt to take a discounted pension instead, which takes account of the increased length of time for which the pension will be payable. I propose to remove the option to take a discounted pension and reduce the minimum age for payment of pension under the scheme to 50 years. Section 12 of the Bill provides for these two changes by amending section 13A of the 1938 Act; however, section 12 of the Bill also rewrites subsection (5) of section 13A for the sake of clarity, mainly because it was too long. Section 12 of the Bill is, as a result, quite long because it breaks up subsection (5) into a number of more manageable subsections. The substantive changes are towards the end, in the amendments to subsection (7) of section 13A of the 1938 Act and the new subsections (9) and (10) of that section. The reduction in the age for payment of pension will apply from the date this Bill is passed.

I am reducing the minimum length of service needed to qualify for a pension under the office holders' pension scheme from the present three years to two years. Entitlement to maximum pension under the scheme accrues over ten years; this fast accrual reflects the responsibilities attaching to public office at this level. It is reasonable that the minimum period of service required to gain entitlement to a pension should also reflect the reality and the vicissitudes of life in political office.

A person with two years' qualifying service will be entitled to a pension of 20% of the appropriate salary, building up to the existing 25% rate under the new office holders' scheme for three years' service. This change will apply to and in respect of all former office holders who have at least two but less than three years in office because I see no reason a person who was an office holder before now for at least two but less than three years should not be entitled to a pen sion for that service if present and future office holders are to have this entitlement. This change is being implemented by section 13 of the Bill, which inserts a new section 13AA in the 1938 Act and will apply from the date the Bill is passed.

I am also making changes to the rules of the office holders' pension scheme in so far as they affect an Attorney General who is not at the same time a Member of either House. Taking the case of an Attorney General who is a Member of either House, he or she is paid the same salary as a Minister and pensioned on that amount under the office holders' scheme. He or she is also paid a salary as a Member and the service as a Member is pensionable under the Houses of the Oireachtas (Members) pension scheme. However, if the Attorney General is not a Member of either House, he or she is paid the same salary as a Minister and, in addition, an amount equal to a Deputy's salary. At present, that additional amount is not taken into account under the office holders' pension scheme. This is anomalous and I propose to rectify it.

Section 13 of the Bill, accordingly, inserts a new section 13AB in the 1938 Act which enables this to be done. This change will apply, with effect from the date this Bill is passed, to and in respect of surviving former Attorneys General entitled to a pension under the office holders' pension scheme. An associated provision is included in section 17 of the Bill to allow a similar change to be made in the calculation of a severance allowance payable to an Attorney General who is not also a Member of either House of the Oireachtas.

Section 14 of the Bill inserts a new section 13E in the 1938 Act which provides for an increase in a secretarial pension to take account of the new allowance payable to Ministers of State who regularly attend meetings of the Government. Payment of this allowance, which was recommended by the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector, is dealt with later in section 40. Section 18 enables the allowance to be taken into account for severance payment purposes. I have also reviewed the provisions in the office holders' pension scheme for payment of benefits to spouses and children of former office holders. There are a number of outdated provisions in that area which I propose to amend with effect from the date this Bill is enacted.

The existing scheme allows a pension to be paid to the surviving spouse of a former office holder only where the marriage took place before or while the person held office. This is a very unusual provision and I am changing it to allow a spouse's pension to be paid regardless of when the marriage took place. The change is in section 15 of the Bill, which, on the advice of the parliamentary counsel, rewrites section 20 of the 1938 Act in its entirety for the sake of clarity. Section 15 of the Bill also makes two amendments to the provisions for payment of an allowance to the surviving children of an office holder.

At present, a child's allowance, as it called in this scheme, is payable only to the child of a marriage which took place before or while a person held office. In future, any child, stepchild or adopted child of a deceased office holder will be entitled to a child's allowance, subject to the rules of the scheme. The other amendment is that, for obvious equality reasons, I am extending to male children the present rule that a child's allowance to a female ceases on marriage.

Section 16 of the Bill inserts three new sections, 20A, 20B and 20C, in the 1938 Act. The new section 20A confirms the existing practice that a child's allowance under the office holders' pension scheme is increased in line with general pay increases in the Civil Service. The new section 20B provides that a child's allowance can continue in payment for a child's lifetime where the child is permanently incapacitated and the incapacity arose before the child was 21 years. The new section 20C amends the provision whereby a spouse's pension ceases when the surviving spouse remarries. This provision is common to public sector pension schemes generally; however, it would normally be accompanied by a provision that payment of pension may recommence where there are compassionate grounds for doing so. I am amending the office holders' pension scheme to allow the Minister for Finance to reinstate a spouse's pension which has ceased on remarriage where the marriage has been annulled or dissolved or where there are compassionate grounds for doing so.

Those are the changes I am bringing forward to the office holders' pension scheme as far as spouse's and children's benefits are concerned. I now address spouse's pensions for Members. During discussions on the Bill yesterday in the Dáil, a number of Deputies expressed concern about the poor financial situation in which some spouses of former Members can find themselves. I understand the concern that prompted these comments. The recent increases in Members' salaries, including the long-service increments which are being introduced by this Bill, will carry through into pensions for former Members and into spouses' and children's pensions that are now in payment.

The pension terms for spouses of Members of the Oireachtas are very similar to those relating to spouses' pension schemes in the public sector generally and must be considered in that light. However, I have been considering some changes to the Oireachtas Members' pension scheme to take account of certain anomalies and to deal with representations that have been made to me. Any changes that are made will carry through into spouses' pensions. I hope that any changes I make will help to alleviate the plight of spouses of former Members who are in poor circumstances.

In my early years as a Member, I made the acquaintance of many other Members of the Houses outside the Dáil Chamber and discussed with them topics political and sporting. Our conversations rarely extended to our remuneration, other than in terms of banter about one and other's personal economic situations. In retrospect, we displayed, as a group, a degree of unthinking or disregard of personal economic welfare. Many years ago there was a cartoon strip in which the male explained that he took all the important decisions in his household – namely, what should be national policy on sanctions against Iraq, Third World aid and industrial and regional matters – while his wife took the minor decisions regarding where they lived, what schools the children attended, etc. There was a touch of that about many of us in the past, when we displayed a degree of unthinking disregard for personal economic welfare. I hope that more recent entrants to these Houses allow real life to intrude more often when it comes to taking decisions important to family welfare. Amending the Members' pension scheme is a matter for regulation rather than primary legislation.

Section 19 of the Bill provides for the replacement of section 31(1) of the 1938 Act which grants a special allowance to a former Taoiseach who has not reached the age of 55 and who has not applied for a discounted pension. Since I am reducing the age for payment of a pension from 55 to 50 and removing the option to take a discounted pension, it is necessary to change the reference to age 55 in section 31 to age 50 and to remove the reference to a discounted pension.

Section 27 deals with the contributions deducted from Members' salaries for the Oireachtas Members' pension scheme. Subsection (1) is a technical amendment to section 6A of the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) Act, 1938, which is the legal basis for the pension deductions. Section 6A as it stands is based on there being a single rate of pay for Deputies and a single rate for Senators. The amended text takes account of the introduction of long-service increments, which are to be pensionable, so that contributions to the scheme can be deducted from them.

A number of Members with well in excess of 20 years' service made the point that they must continue to contribute to the Members' pension scheme even though they have long since earned full entitlement to pension. Section 27(2) provides that deductions from salary towards the scheme will cease to be made when a person has served for 20 years as a Member of the Oireachtas. Deductions from pensionable allowances will cease when a member has paid deductions from allowances in respect of an aggregate period of 20 years. The section also provides that, where Members have already paid contributions for more than 20 years, any excess contributions paid since 26 June 1997 will be refunded.

Section 29 repeals a provision relating to spouses' pensions under the office holders' pension scheme, which was included on a stand-alone basis in the Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Amendment) Act, 1952, and which is now incorporated in the revised section 20(4) of the Minis terial and Parliamentary Offices Act, 1938, being inserted by section 15 of this Bill.

Part 10 of the Bill, incorporating sections 45 to 59, provides for the transfer of pensionable service into and out of the Oireachtas pension scheme, the pension scheme for Irish Members of the European Parliament and the pension schemes for members of the Judiciary and court officers. Long-standing arrangements are in place to allow employees of public sector bodies which are members of the public sector and local authority transfer networks to transfer service when they move to another body in the networks. It has not, however, been possible for Members of the Oireachtas, members of the Judiciary or court officers to transfer service. This Bill introduces provisions which will allow this and it will apply also to Irish Members of the European Parliament whose pension scheme is based on the Oireachtas Members' pension scheme.

The mechanism will be that transfer of service will be possible between the pension schemes for Members of the Oireachtas, Irish Members of the European Parliament, Members of the Judiciary and court officers, the Civil Service, bodies which are designated as approved organisations for the purposes of the public sector transfer network and any other body designated by the Minister for Finance under this legislation. The detailed operation of the arrangements will be subject to terms and conditions determined by the Minister for Finance. Those terms and conditions will take account of the enhanced pension accrual rates which apply to Members of the Oireachtas, Members of the Judiciary and court officers.

It will not be possible to transfer service in respect of which a pension has already come into payment. It will be possible to transfer service where a lump sum only has been paid or where contributions have been refunded, provided the lump sum or refunded contributions are paid back in respect of the previous service which a person wishes to transfer.

Sections 45 to 48 define a number of terms and give the Minister for Finance power to designate organisations as approved organisations for the purposes of Part 10. Sections 49 to 52 set out the basic entitlement of Members of the Oireachtas, Irish MEPs, members of the Judiciary and court officers to transfer service. Section 53 provides that transfer of service will be subject to terms and conditions determined by the Minister for Finance or. as appropriate, terms and conditions agreed by the Minister with a designated organisation. In determining the extent to which service can be transferred, account may be taken of differences between pension schemes in terms of the length of time required to earn entitlement to maximum benefit under a scheme. If the transfer of service involves an organisation which is designated as an approved organisation, the terms and conditions agreed between the Minister and the organisation must either provide for the payment of a contribution or set out agreed reciprocal arrangements for the transfer of service.

Section 54 provides that, once service has been transferred, it cannot reckon for superannuation purposes in the organisation from which the service was transferred. Section 55 prohibits transfer of service where a pension has already come into payment. It allows the transfer of service in respect of which a lump sum or gratuity has been paid or contributions have been refunded, provided the lump sum, gratuity or contributions, plus interest, are paid back. Section 56 deals with the detail of applying for transfer of service under these provisions. Section 57 allows pension schemes to be amended to take account of these new transfer provisions where the authorities who are responsible for the scheme would not already have the power to make such amendments.

Section 58 provides for the making of orders under Part 10 and requires that such orders must be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. Finally, as far as pensions are concerned, section 59 enables the trustees of the Houses of the Oireachtas Members' pension scheme to make and receive transfer payments for the purposes of Part 10.

Section 33 deals with postal facilities for Members and section 35 deals with payment of the general expenses allowance to the Attorney General. As Members are aware, the provision of free postal facilities to Members under existing legislation is subject to the requirement that those facilities be used solely for matters arising out of a Member's parliamentary duties. I am aware that there has been some concern on the part of Members in relation to the operation of the existing provision and, specifically, to the interpretation of the term "parliamentary duties". The case has been made that the existing interpretation of that term does not properly reflect or facilitate Members' needs in regard to their normal daily usage of the free postal facilities. I acknowledge that difficulties have arisen in this regard and that those difficulties have arisen, in large part, owing to the absence in existing legislation of a precise definition of the term "parliamentary duties". The difficulty is in deciding what precisely that term encompasses. In my opinion, it is debatable whether one could actually come up with a satisfactory, comprehensive and workable definition as to what exactly constitutes parliamentary duties for the purposes of determining Members' entitlements to free postal facilities.

Having considered the matter, I am satisfied that it would be impractical to attempt to lay down in legislation detailed parameters on the use of free postal facilities. In the absence of a precise and workable definition of parliamentary duties, it seems that the only practical alternative is to remove that phrase from the legislation. I am proposing, therefore, in section 33, to delete the term "parliamentary duties" from section 2 of the 1962 Act.

Section 37 enables the general expense allowance which is currently paid to all office holders who are Members of the Oireachtas to be paid also to an Attorney General who is not a Member of the Oireachtas. The allowance is to meet costs necessarily incurred by office holders in the performance of the duties of their office which will not otherwise be reimbursed. However, existing legislation provides for the payment of the allowance to office holders only if they are also Members of the Oireachtas. An Attorney General who is not a Member of the Dáil or Seanad would not be entitled to receive the allowance. This anomaly is being removed and the provision will be backdated to June 1997.

All that remains is to introduce section 20, which deals with the remuneration and tenure of the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of Dáil Éireann and the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of Seanad Éireann. In the course of the review of issues affecting parliamentarians, the question arose of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle remaining in office during the period when the Dáil was dissolved. The general assumption was that this could not be done because there was not during that period any Dáil for which his deputy chairmanship function needed to be exercised. However, the position became less clear when legal advice was sought.

There is provision in the Constitution for a Ceann Comhairle to be re-elected to the Dáil without standing for election, but there is no provision in the Constitution, legislation or even Standing Orders to retain a Ceann Comhairle who does not wish to be elected to the new Dáil. However, both the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad are Members of the Presidential Commission which can be required to act during the period of dissolution. It is, therefore, constitutionally necessary to ensure that the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad will be retained in office to ensure that the Presidential Commission, which may have to exercise its function during a dissolution, will be properly and fully constituted. Since under the Constitution their positions, should they be incapacitated or unavailable, are taken by the Deputy Chairmen, it was necessary to make the same provision for the latter.

I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. J. Doyle

When we discussed the Standards in Public Office Bill, 2000, yesterday, I stated that the numerous Acts on the behaviour of Members should be codified in one piece of legislation. The same applies to this Bill as the legislation on Members' pay and pensions stretches over 40 years encompassing a vast number of statutes, which the Minister listed and I will not repeat.

The main feature for us is that Senators will receive a long-term service increment after seven years and a further one after 10. As many Senators serve in the Dáil, it is welcome that the Minister accepted a Dáil amendment that all Oireachtas time will be calculated and service as Deputy and Senator will not be counted separately. The review group recommended that Members of both Houses receive long-term increments similar to civil servants. It also recommended that Deputies receive the salary of a principal officer and Senators 70% of that, which is a fair way of dealing with this issue. In the past, when we got a pay increase, it was published three or four times and the public believed that we received three or four increases. The Buckley review and the review group no longer apply as we are linked to the Civil Service.

The Bill also provides that the Leader of the Seanad be treated as an office-holder for salary purposes, back dated to 19 September 1997. We welcome this but a similar provision ought to be made for the Leader of the Opposition and I will table an amendment to address that. Under the Bill, the minimum length of service to qualify for a pension under the office-holders' pension scheme is reduced from three years to two.

The Bill removes the restriction that Members can use postal facilities only for parliamentary duties. Does this give discretion to a Member to use the post as he or she wishes? I wanted to help worthwhile voluntary organisations in my constituency with postal facilities but was prohibited from doing so. Can I help them now?

The Ceann Comhairle and Cathaoirleach will retain their offices until the election of a new Dáil or Seanad, to ensure the proper composition of the Presidential Commission, which may have to exercise its functions during a dissolution.

The Minister intends to introduce further changes to the Members' pension scheme to eradicate anomalies, which will be done by regulation, not legislation. Will the Minister consider my proposition that time spent in this House by former Deputies will count as Dáil time for pension purposes? This is important when a person is in his or her last Oireachtas term. I welcome that the Minister is improving spouses' pensions.

I welcome this Bill and pay tribute to the Minister for his courage in introducing it and similar measures which improve the financial plight of Members, for which we are all grateful.

Mr. Finneran

I welcome the Minister's introduction of the Bill, his acceptance of the Buckley report and the measure bringing the position of Senators into line with that of Deputies. A great anomaly arising from percentage increases was that the gap between the remuneration of Members of the Upper House and the Lower House grew wider. I thank the Minister for accepting that the salary of a Senator should be 70% of the salary of a Deputy. I especially compliment the Leader of the House, Senator Cassidy, on his tenacity in promoting this proposal and having it debated. From 1997 he, other Senators and I made an issue of this because we were conscious of our pension entitlements. This ratio is important.

I have been in this House for 12 years and 10 years ago took unpaid leave of absence from my job. Members know that I experienced difficult times. I lived on a shoestring for many years, sup porting a growing family in second and third level education. My wife's running a full-time constituency office benefited me. As I stated on another Bill, there was no remuneration for that until recently, and it is less than £4,000 a year. That is why I drive a 1993 car.

The Minister courageously addresses the salary issue. It will enable people who are not wealthy to participate in public life. Otherwise membership of the Oireachtas would be limited to those with the private means to support themselves, which is a bad basis for democracy. People looking back on the Minister's decision will say that he afforded the opportunity to individuals from all walks of life to enter public life and occupy a rightful position in the Oireachtas. I welcome also his decision on spouses' pensions and the retired. I knew a person who served 11 years as a Deputy. Before he passed away recently, he received a pension of £50 per month, which is extraordinarily low. Many retired Members, and surviving spouses of deceased Members, receive low pensions.

The Minister addresses many issues in this Bill. There are areas that involve Ministers, a Minister of State and the Leader of the House. It is appropriate that the Leader should be an office holder. The salary involved will not be of major benefit on a weekly or monthly basis but will be of benefit for pension purposes which is important. Senator Doyle spoke about pensions and people in all walks of life are concerned with how they will provide for themselves and their spouses later. There is a massive amount of attention on anybody who spends some years in the Houses of the Oireachtas and they deserve at least the comfort of having a pension they can reasonably live on or that their spouse can live on in the event of their death. That would be some consolation to people who have given a lot of their adult life to the public service.

The Minister has taken important decisions – the provisions of this legislation are testimony to that – and is to be complimented. He has opened in a practical way the opportunity for people from all walks of life to stand for the Houses of the Oireachtas in the knowledge that they will not fall into debt as a result. I have discussed Members' financial position many times over the years. The Minister said today that we talked about everything rather than people's financial position, except in a vague way. My information is that most Members who are full-time politicians have extremely high overdrafts during their time in the House, and I have personal experience of that. This legislation will take the worry and the burden off not just the Members but also their families, and I commend the Minister on his initiative in the area.

Mr. Bonner

I listened to Senator Finneran referring to former Members of the House. I recall a conversation with the late Senator McGowan about three years ago. He told me that after almost 40 years in politics he felt remunerated and looked after for the first time. The Bill tidies various pieces of legislation in relation to officers of the Dáil and Seanad. It also relates to ministerial and Minister of State pensions and, above all, the long-term service increment to Members of both Dáil and Seanad. I was fortunate to be outside the House for many years when my family were young and I was in a position to build up a business. I would not like to have been here in my family's formative years. Now I can give my time to politics and I appreciate that Members are being properly remunerated.

I also welcome the change from the allowance system to the officer position for remuneration to the Leader of the House, particularly for pension purposes. The Bill regularises an unusual situation which has arisen in relation to the presidential commission. There was an anomaly in the case where the Ceann Comhairle or the Cathaoirleach were not offering to remain in the House.

Part 6 of the Bill provides for changes in the postal situation for Members. There were times that one wondered whether one should use an envelope, and I welcome the clarification on this. Lest the media think that any Tom, Dick or Harry can use the envelopes, we as Members appreciate that their use is now clarified.

The Bill also provides for payment to assistant party Whip in the Dáil and for an increased salary for the two Ministers of State who routinely attend Cabinet meetings. Both Ministers have huge responsibilities and I am delighted to see that is now recognised. Part 10 of the Bill facilitates the transfer of pensionable service into outside schemes for Members of the Oireachtas and for the Judiciary and court officers, which is welcome. The Minister made huge changes in the self-employed pensions schemes in the Finance Bills he introduced and it is right that whatever entitlements we have here can be transferred, particularly in light of the insecurity of the job.

We appreciate that, due to the review group, salaries are now aligned to some formula. The salary for a Dáil Deputy, and now 70% of that to Senators, will encourage people of high quality. There is still the insecurity of getting elected but at least—

Mr. J. Doyle

Staying there is more important.

Mr. Bonner

—while here one is getting fair remuneration for one's work. The minimum age for payment of pensions has been reduced to 50. I appreciate the removal of the anomalies where wives of Ministers had difficulties and where only children born by a certain time were recognised. I would like to see widows of former Members properly looked after. That may have been suggested in the Dáil also. The Minister should examine the 25% that wives of former Members get as pensions. Some of these Members died suddenly and left young families and wives to try to survive. The wives were the backbone to many of those Members, particularly the Senators who did not have the use of secretarial services.

I welcome the Bill and feel sure it will have a safe passage through the House.

Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy)

I thank Members for their contributions. The question of pensions has been raised. Most Members are concerned about pensions for their spouses. As Minister with responsibility for the public service as well as Minister for Finance, I realise that a small change is not a problem as such in that particular area but a problem arises with the knock-on effects. I have looked at this area of pensions for officers etc. and I have some ideas in mind which I hope to be in a position to put into effect before the next election.

As my speech indicated and Senator Joe Doyle mentioned, various Acts going back 60 years have dealt with this area. We resisted the temptation to consolidate, but will try to do so at a future date. I will deal with questions concerning other Parts of the Bill on Committee Stage. I agree with Senator Finneran's remarks on financial affairs as when I was a back bench Deputy, I gave financial advice to many Members of all parties. One thing all Deputies and Senators have in common is that they spend so much time looking after everyone else's affairs that they neglect their own. Senator Doyle and I have been here long enough to have known many Members who entered politics having established fine businesses. They ended up with nearly nothing because they neglected their businesses for the sake of public service.

I recall being given strong advice by a Deputy in late 1977 or early 1978, who told me about the changes in his circumstances since he entered the House. Things turned around for him in the interim, but a fair element of luck was attached to the reversal of his situation. Senators Joe Doyle, Cassidy and Bonner know of many such cases. I do not know any ex-Member of the Oireachtas who was better off financially when leaving the House than when they entered. I can give chapter and verse, going back 60 or 70 years, of the opposite situation. Without going into the affairs of colleagues on either side of the House or from my time as an accountant, I can say that politicians are the worst managers of personal finance as they are tied up with running the political affairs of their parties and looking after constituents.

Senator Finneran referred to increasing overdrafts and I wish to respond with a funny aside. After changes were made in 1998 which allowed certain allowances to be backdated, many were given a back payment of allowances. A colleague from another party said shortly afterwards, in a jocose way, that his bank manager was a little concerned as for the first time ever his accounts were in the black. The bank manager thought my colleague was on the take. Most Deputies and Senators will have had similar experiences. As Senators from my party are aware, I do not believe that politicians should demean themselves by being afraid of what is written about them. It must not be thought that we will not be respected. Senator Bonner and I share the same profession and, like me, he knows of no politician who goes to the cheapest accountant or doctor in the street. I have made it a goal of mine, as Minister for Finance, to try to improve the position of Members. I thank Senators for their contributions.

Question put and agreed to.