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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 2001

Vol. 168 No. 10

Order of Business.

Today's Order of Business is No. 1, Industrial Designs Bill, 2001 – Committee and Remaining Stages; and No. 15, motion No. 20, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. Business, if not previously concluded, is to be resumed thereafter.

I have no problem with the Order of Business today. I ask the Leader, as I have done on dozens of occasions in the last while, if he will do the Opposition the courtesy of letting us know, even roughly, what the business of the House will be over the next two or three weeks. All his predecessors did that and it would greatly help us to plan our business if he had an indicative set of proposals as to what legislation may be taken. I know it can be changed from time to time and there can be emergencies but it would help.

I seek an urgent debate on the economy. I know we had one just a few weeks ago, a low key debate which was largely self-congratulatory for speakers from the far side of the House, but even as that debate was going on, things were changing radically. At present the worst enemy is uncertainty. We do not know where all the revenue has gone. We do not know what plans the Government has to deal with the crisis. We do not know how much of the crisis is caused by external events or how much is due to home grown factors such as lack of competition. Most of all, we do not know the Government thinking on the biggest crisis this Parliament has faced. I ask the Leader, as a matter of urgency – next week at the latest – to hold a debate on the economy over a full day or as long as it takes, with the Minister for Finance present.

On a related matter, it is a long time since we debated employment and unemployment in this House for reasons which were touched on by Senator Manning. It appears we need to ensure that the policies in place are appropriate and reflect the current needs. There is a clear need to make people understand the policies in place to ensure that people can be retrained or guided to other employment. Given that the recently released figures for last month are so high – they will be higher next month in terms of the increase – we need to create a sense of trust and confidence in people that there is a plan in place and that ties in with the national development plan.

I would like a clear update on the objectives of the national development plan. Everybody in this House agreed previously that we needed to have that infrastructure in place in order to get out of a recession and it seems the Government is beginning to row back on some of the commitments and objectives of the plan. I raised the question of housing and I ask the Leader to bring this to the attention of the Minister. Perhaps this will all be wrapped up in a structured debate on the economy as sought by Senator Manning, but certainly those aspects of issues to do with unemployment and the importance of ensuring that the national development plan sticks to its schedule are crucial.

I want to raise one other matter. There will be a debate later this evening on the question of drugs and drugs policy. There is an unwritten rule of the House that items which are shown to the House in the course of a speech should in all cases be handed to the Cathaoirleach. That is a long-standing tradition of the House. As we have all received an amount of cannabis resin, which apparently is an illegal substance, and we would like to use this as a leiriú corpach in terms of the point we are trying to make, we are required under the rules of the House to hand it to you, a Chathaoirligh, and I would hate in any way to criminalise you in your position. Perhaps you will give us guidance as to what we should do with these pieces of illegal substance which we have received in the past week.

We could claim privilege.

Smokey Joe.

I am very appreciative of Senator O'Toole's consideration for me.

I am very surprised Senator O'Toole has not handed that illegal substance to the Garda as requested by Ming the Merciless who sent it to all of us in the past few days.

I fully support the calls for an urgent debate on the economy, the scope of which should be as wide as possible to encompass the issue of job losses, where the economy is going, the national development plan and industrial relations. Much has changed over the past month and there are changes on a weekly basis, with jobs losses almost spiralling. Everything has changed utterly. With the budget coming up on 6 December, at this point it would be most appropriate to have a wide-ranging debate during which we would look at everything that is happening, including the direction in which the economy is going, to ensure that panic measures are not put in place. At least we would put our views to the Minister and give him an opportunity of hearing us, not just on the budgetary strategy but on how in general we see the economy developing.

I also call for a debate with the Minister for Public Enterprise on public transport and what is happening with the light rail project, the port tunnel and the Bord Gáis pipeline on the northside.

The underground.

The proposal for an underground system seems to have disappeared underground and we do not know whether it will re-emerge. In addition, the aviation pipeline is being laid, and all this is happening simultaneously on the northside. The Minister unveiled a light rail carriage on the southside, which is on display for a couple of days. The entire north side of the city is congested with virtually no way of getting through. I would like the Minister to come to the House and explain this in terms of planning.

These points can be made during the debate being sought by the Senator.

The old adage is that for a while no bus arrives, then they arrive in twos and threes. All the development seems to be taking place at the same time and it has a very adverse effect on neighbourhoods and residential areas.

It is curious that one Member on the Opposition benches is worried about non-implementation of the national development plan and another is worried about the consequences of its implementation, which does not make much sense.

I am talking about intelligent planning.

Senator Dardis, without interruption.

I am trying not to provoke a response. We are all very concerned about the recent job losses and it would be appropriate to have a discussion on the economy. It is also important that we do not talk ourselves into a recession. While there is a slowdown we are not in recession.

It would be wrong if we did not salute the election of David Trimble as First Minister and Mark Durkan as Deputy First Minister in Stormont. Although we discussed this issue very recently, events have moved on and it might be appropriate to allow time for a debate. In particular I salute the Alliance Party and its leader, Mr. Ford—

Hear, hear.

And the Women's Coalition.

—and the Women's Coalition for what they have done as in both cases they are the only people who can claim to have genuine cross-community appeal. As a result they are vilified by the extremists on both sides. Conscious of that need for cross-community appeal, it was very courageous of them to label themselves as Unionist to ensure the election of Mr. Trimble and Mr. Durkan.

We do not like to see in any Parliament the scenes we saw yesterday in Stormont. If decommissioning is good enough for General de Chastelain it should be good enough for others. If a person of his eminence and authority says there is decommissioning, that should be taken in good faith. I accept that, irrespective of who made the statement, some people would not take it in good faith. The fact that the IRA took some guns out of commission is of enormous significance and historical proportions, and this has to be recognised.

I have allowed considerable latitude to the leaders.

And to Senator O'Toole, who is not a leader.

I ask other speakers on the Order of Business to be brief and relevant.

I am sure the reason the Cathaoirleach made those remarks was not to try deliberately to curtail me. I ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, or more appropriately the Taoiseach, to let us know if he will consider asking the social partners – if there is going to be a social partnership in the future – to put in place some means by which people employed in private companies can be allowed not just time off but an assurance that they will not be at a loss of revenue as a result of upholding democracy by being elected to local government. It has become increasingly obvious that, because of the onerous task and additional hours involved, people will not get involved if it means they or their families suffer a loss. I ask the Taoiseach to ensure that some system is put in place whereby people would be paid or recompensed in some way for doing the right thing by the country.

I support Senator Manning and others in their call for a debate on the economy. Senator Dardis spoke about talking us into a recession. I would not like us to find ourselves in a recession without having talked about it, which may well happen. We are asking for clarity as to whether the steering is broken or the rudder is gone on the ship of State and where it is going.

In regard to disallowing my matter on the Adjournment, an event took place in Knocklong during the War of Independence which had a great effect on its success. As a result two people were executed and reinterred recently. The place where that event happened is currently a disgrace.

I cannot allow the Senator to raise that matter on the Order of Business.

I would like some advice.

The Senator should understand that it is not in order to question my ruling in relation to matters submitted for the Adjournment. If Senator Kiely wishes to discuss the matter further with me he is welcome to come to my office.

I am sorry. I am not disagreeing with the Cathaoirleach's ruling but I am anxious to receive advice on how to raise the matter again and ensure things are put back in proper shape.

I will discuss the matter further with Senator Kiely in my office.

Will the Leader of the House provide a forum to debate the unacceptable situation whereby spouses of Irish citizens must queue in the rain outside Harcourt Street Garda station for a stamp on their passport to allow them the privilege of living with their Irish-born husbands or wives for another year? They have been queuing at 5 o'clock and that has now gone back to 3 o'clock. They are mixing with queues of people going into night clubs. As this is unacceptable perhaps the Leader will make time available for either a wider debate, a brief period for statements or a debate on the Adjournment. In the meantime, will he please raise this matter with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government? I believe it causes a constitutional conflict as it violates marriage.

I ask for a debate on litter and pollution. I say this because of a very strong letter in this morning's edition of The Irish Times which was read on radio. A Norwegian environmental assessment officer was sent over here officially – they send them to different countries to write environmental assessments so that they will know where to send tourists – and he came up with an extraordinarily negative assessment. He said the country is dirty, polluted, particularly the city of Dublin, and that he cannot recommend it to tourists. I urge a debate to show the significance of this issue. As we have had a catastrophic drop in the number of North American tourists, we are now looking to tourists from Europe and Scandinavian countries who come here for the environment, which we are destroying. It is time for a debate in this House on the issue. We previously had a very useful debate.

I also support the call for a debate on the economy, in particular a debate which would focus on a certain area, the role of FÁS and a review of its policy in the context of the economy. The Leader will be aware that I asked for a debate on this issue before. This issue is very pertinent in light of the current unemployment figures. If we are to have such a debate, we owe courtesy to the many Ministers involved.

I would welcome a debate on the litter problem. All I can do is refer to a particular area in south Dublin where the litter problem must be solved. This is on a main route from the airport and Dun Laoghaire into the country. The litter problem is giving a very negative image of how the country is currently being run. A debate on how to go forward, the solutions, whether there are sufficient wardens and where we go from here would be very welcome.

I support Senator Manning's call for a debate on the economy. He is correct to stress the fear of a number of people given the job losses occurring in many sectors.

When the Minister for the Environment and Local Government is in the House to debate the litter issue, I hope he will respond to a call I made two weeks ago in relation to the role of the Environmental Protection Agency and the Minister. It concerns a particular substance that is currently being dumped illegally and for which nobody is taking responsibility. The problem is being passed from the EPA to local government, but we should know what is the position in relation to this particular substance. Representations have been made to the Minister, the EPA and the local authorities but nobody seems to have responsibility for this area. I would like clarification on that and other issues, and the role of the EPA.

Will the Leader invite the Minister for Education and Science to come into the House as soon as possible to enable us debate two very worrying trends in education? The first is the steep decline in the number of second level students taking science, physics and chemistry to leaving certificate level, the consequent reduction in the number of students who register for courses in chemistry in our institutes of technology and the inevitable adverse impact that trend will have on our high-tech industry and job prospects for young people who ought to be looking for jobs in that sector. In addition, I am very concerned about the low level of competence in mathematics of the many young people leaving second level, a subject that ought to be central to all education, and the low level of competence, as evidenced by the poor leaving certificate results in pass mathematics in this year's leaving certificate.

Those two subjects are related to the future of our economy as well as the well being of our young people, and they ought to be debated at the earliest available opportunity. I also support the call for an urgent debate on the litter problem.

From television and radio programmes and reports in the press we know of the terrible suffering of women in Afghanistan following the application of sharia rule by the Taliban, but Afghanistan is not the only country where this is a problem. In northern Nigeria, sharia rule has been extended to many towns and there were reports recently of a young woman, pregnant following rape, being stoned to death. This is of importance to us because the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on the way to the anti-racism conference in South Africa, stopped off in Lagos to finalise arrangements with the Nigerian Government regarding the deportation of Nigerians who were refused asylum status here. Some of those are women who object to the treatment of women in their country. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House so that we can discuss the arrangements he has made with the Nigerian Government—

Hear, hear.

—regarding the deportation of people from this country. I would find it difficult to consider Nigeria a safe country to which to deport people who object to the treatment of women there.

I want to raise with the Leader the introduction recently by Eircom of the practice to charge £2,500 plus costs to move one of their poles on a landowner's land. This new practice brought in by Eircom has serious implications for the farming community. In the past, farmers accommodated the then Department of Posts and Telegraphs, Telecom and indeed Eircom by allowing these poles to be erected on their land at no cost so that land line services could be provided. This charge is an outrageous attack on the farming community and I ask the Leader to take up the issue with the Minister for Public Enterprise to get Eircom to desist from this practice and withdraw the demands they have already sent to farmers, some of whom may only need to have a pole moved a few yards, for one reason or another, perhaps to develop the land for members of their families. These farmers have been sent a demand for £2,000 plus costs, which in most cases could end up in the region of £4,000. That is unacceptable.

I support Senator Manning's call for a debate on the economy. I had intended asking the Leader for a debate on tourism and certain aspects of the tourism programme. I am sure the Leader is aware that there are five sub-measures of the programme of the national development plan that have not been approved by the EU and that the Department is still in consultation with the EU Commission on them. A year and a half has elapsed and investment is available, but people do not know exactly where they stand in relation to the grants available. It is incumbent on the Minister to go to Brussels immediately to resolve this matter. We cannot allow a situation where investment is—

We cannot have long speeches on the Order of Business, Senator Caffrey.

I appreciate that, a Chathaoirligh, but I just want to tie in that particular aspect with the debate on the economy. It is very important that that issue is addressed.

I join those who requested a debate on the economy. Nobody on this side of the House would be worried about a debate on the economy and it is a matter which we have to address. No doubt, there is a downturn in the economy. It is not a recession but we can talk ourselves in. Our politicians can decide that we are doing things we should not be doing or that we are not doing things we should be doing. I see no problem in having a discussion on the economy.

Senator Caffrey has mentioned tourism which is intimately tied into the economy. Throughout the world, there is a downturn in tourism and undoubtedly we are suffering, although not as much as many other countries. Every job lost in the tourism industry is a loss which will be very difficult to make up. We have to be concerned about every job lost in the economy as a result of the downturn in the American economy. It is all tied into the world economy—

We are not having the debate now, Senator Lanigan.

May I ask that we agree the debate should take place? I ask the Leader to bear in mind that because of the events of 11 September in the United States, there are issues arising every week in relation to the international economy which we should discuss in this House. There are issues to be addressed in relation to the war in Afghanistan. Maybe we should have an ongoing debate on these matters, including the war and the state of the tourism industry as a result of developments outside our economy. I do not suggest we should be worried about it but we should have an ongoing discussion on it and I ask the Leader to consider that in the context of the present world crisis.

You have made the point, Senator Lanigan.

I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to the House to explain how he intends to respond to calls at the Coastwatch Ireland conference yesterday on the damage being done by current practices on our beaches and coastline. I was not aware of those practices but there appears to be a need for legislation, which was called for at that conference, and for the enforcement of existing local authority by-laws. As a golfer, I do not particularly like sand bunkers but I am told – it never dawned on me before – that, apparently, golf clubs are taking sand from our beaches without permission. That is just one of the issues arising from yesterday's conference in relation to damage being done to our coastline. We should invite the Minister to respond to the issues raised at that conference.

I support the request for a debate on the tourism sector. We need to allay the concerns expressed by that sector, including hotels and guest houses, in relation to the future development of tourism. The Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Fahey, made a statement recently on the importance of regional airports and the changes taking place in Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta. Regional airports should play a more important role in future in relation to tourism and the distribution of people to regional areas. A debate is necessary to ascertain the position of the Government, particularly the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, with regard to the promotion of tourism in 2002 and beyond, taking into consideration the current worldwide economic changes.

I join Senator Manning and other Senators in the call for a further debate on the economy, which is changing daily and sadly not for the better. The Department has no explanation for the huge drop in revenue. It cannot all be attributed to the sad events of 11 September and the Minister has admitted his crystal ball is defective or at least it is no better than that of anybody else.

That is the wrong interpretation.

It would be timely for the Minister to update us. I agree with Senator Ormonde's request to incorporate discussion of FÁS into that debate. Given the huge scale of job losses, FÁS needs to be busy in up-skilling, training and other activities rather than empire building abroad, trying to get non-EU nationals to come here.

I also support Senator Manning's request for a debate on the economy. I want to raise the issue of insurance. On a number of occasions Senators have sought a debate on this matter. Insurance is in crisis. Many small businesses, builders etc. are operating without insurance, not because they will not pay for it, but because they cannot get it. Cartels are operating in the insurance industry. I ask the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on insurance as a matter of urgency.

I ask the Leader of the House to convey to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, the deep concern of the people of Louth at the 320 jobs lost last week in Dundalk. Since the beginning of this year over 1,000 jobs have been lost in County Louth for economic reasons and this needs to be addressed urgently. The Government needs a policy to locate new jobs in the regions rather than in the cities that are choked with traffic and pollution. Towns like Drogheda, Dundalk and the other regions need these jobs and can provide the housing and infrastructure needed.

I wish to inform the House that on Wednesday morning next, Commissioner David Byrne will address the House and hear submissions between 11 a.m. and 1 p.m.

Senator Manning asked for details of business and legislation due before the House in the coming weeks. I will endeavour to have this by next Tuesday.

Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello, Dardis, Ormonde, Jackman, Caffrey, Lanigan, Coghlan, Burke and O'Dowd called for an urgent debate on the economy. We had a lengthy debate on the economy here a few weeks ago. I take into account the serious requests made for a debate on the economy and unemployment as well as on the success of FÁS and its future.

Many Senators mentioned the downturn in the economies of many other countries. Ireland has stood the test very well. However, all sides of the House must call on the banks to cut interest rates. The banks have had seven to ten years of unprecedented growth and profits. The American Federal Reserve yesterday reduced interest rates to 2% and now is the time for the banks to play their part in assisting businesses in a position to give employment by following the lead of America and indeed the lead of Europe. The reduction has not been passed on by the banks here in accordance with the wishes of the EU or in accordance with what is happening in America.

In relation to what is happening abroad, we must take into account the enormous number of jobs being created by multinational companies and organisations. There is still much confidence in the ability of those companies and of individuals to provide employment. Certainly, those who have funds and who are only getting 0.5 per cent or 1 per cent on deposits will be encouraged to get out and continue the great work that has been going on here under all Governments since 1987. I have no difficulty in allowing time to have the debate which has been called for this morning. Since becoming Leader of the House, I have always afforded the opportunity on budget day to Senators – particularly to Senator Ross and the Independents – to have their views reflected during Private Members' time. Those views have been aired fairly by RTE and the media on that day.

I welcome the opportunity to talk, once again, about our great economic achievements over the last 14 years and to discuss where we go from here. We are in the fortunate position of having Senator O'Toole as a Member of the House given the great part he played in the PPF. He and other fine people brought together the Government, employers, employees, the farming organisations and all those other organisations that came to the national understanding which has given us our great success.

Eleven Senators have called for an urgent debate on tourism. I am pleased to inform the House that I will move an all-day debate on tourism on the Order of Business in the morning. I look forward to hearing from the 11 Senators and from many others whom I know are anxious to contribute to a lengthy debate. I will be observing those who have called for the debate and listening to their contributions which I hope will be of enormous benefit to the Minister.

Senator Costello called for the Minister for Public Enterprise to come and update the House about the public transport plan. All sides of the House agree that the plan is urgently needed. However, on my return to the country this morning I witnessed the huge investment happening in the Whitehall area, which is adjacent to Senator Costello's constituency. I can only applaud any investment that happens north of the Liffey. It is urgently needed. I agree with Senator Costello and will certainly pass his views on to my constituency colleague, the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke.

Senator Dardis wished to offer our congratulations to David Trimble and Mark Durkan and to wish them well in their new undertakings and portfolios. I join the Senator in doing that. The decommissioning gesture made to General John de Chastelain was truly a historic occasion. I wholeheartedly welcome it. Many of us thought it would be a long time before it happened, but it has and we are all here to witness further progress in the North.

I will certainly pass the views of Senator Coogan to the Taoiseach and the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey. All Senators can agree with the sentiments the Senator expressed regarding the com mitment that public representatives, be they local authority members or others, not be out of pocket because of the enormous amount of time that has to be spent nowadays serving the needs of the people. I will also pass on the views of Senator Norris to the Minister in relation to the long queues outside Harcourt Street Garda station and the number of hours spent there by those queueing. I will ask the Minister to clarify things.

Senators Norris, Ormonde, Jackman, Quill, Caffrey, Chambers and others expressed their disappointment with the level of litter. That can be discussed tomorrow during the debate on tourism. Today the Minister made a major announcement regarding tourism and he will brief us in detail about that here tomorrow.

Senator Quill called for a debate on education and highlighted the decline in the numbers taking various subjects. I have no difficulty in allowing time for this.

I will pass on the views of Senator Henry to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I agree with the sentiments she has expressed. Senator Finneran pointed out to the House that Eircom's charging of £2,500 for the removal of poles is an attack on rural Ireland once again. Corporate decisions being made do not pay sufficient regard to the goodwill and support given by the people of rural Ireland – the farming community in general – regarding all the work that was carried out down through the years. I will certainly pass on the views of the Senator to the Minister and ask him to respond.

Senator Lanigan called for an update to be given from time to time on the Afghan problem, particularly the events of 11 September. I have no difficulty in allowing time for this. Senator Quinn called for a debate on coastal erosion and matters pertaining to the removal of sand from beaches. This is illegal and legislation pertaining thereto has been passed by both Houses, although the minute quantities of which the Senator speaks that are ending up on golf courses may regard further attention. I know he has expertise in this field and I suffered at his hands on many occasions. I will pass his views on to the Minister.

Senator Burke called for an urgent debate on the insurance industry. This must happen and I have been endeavouring to have it take place in recent weeks. There are currently people with no public liability insurance, which is disgraceful and appalling. I do not know how the problem will be addressed but it must be done.

There are people running businesses with no public liability insurance. If something goes wrong, they will be completely wiped out after years of endeavour and effort. We all know the well established families who have made a major contribution to their own areas, employing hundreds of people, particularly in the tourism industry, but some have no public liability insurance at present. We know of some people in manufacturing who have none either. I certainly will endeav our to have the matter debated in the House as early as possible.

Order of Business agreed to.
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