Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Dec 2001

Vol. 168 No. 18

Heritage Fund Bill, 2001: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am delighted to commence the debate on the Heritage Fund Bill, 2001 which represents a significant development in the expansion of the collections of the principal collecting institutions with outstanding and important artefacts.

Senators will recall that a specific commitment was given in the Government's Action Programme for the Millennium to the establishment of a heritage fund. This Bill fully meets that commitment and provides for the establishment of such a fund with an overall limit of £10 million over a five year period commencing this year.

The principal aim of the heritage fund is to build up financial resources which will be used by the principal State collecting cultural institutions to acquire significant items that are outstanding examples of their type and pre-eminent in their class for the national collections. These items of moveable heritage must be such that failure to acquire one or more would result in a major loss to Ireland's heritage and cultural collection. The principal collecting institutions are charged with expanding their collections so that current and future generations may enjoy, appreciate and value such magnificent artefacts. These artefacts include such items that may not otherwise have been purchased and include archaeological objects, manuscripts, books and works of art that are rare, expensive and of national importance. In view of this, the Bill will only allow for the acquisition of such significant artefacts after a valuation of £250,000 or €317,435. The Bill also allows for the Council of National Cultural Institutions, or as it will be known, An Chomhairle um Fhorais Chultúir Náisiúnta, to make recommendations to me on proposed acquisitions using the heritage fund in respect of five eligible institutions.

Section 2 lists the five eligible institutions that will benefit from the heritage fund. These are Ireland's principal collecting national institutions: the National Archives; the National Gallery of Ireland; the National Library of Ireland; the National Museum of Ireland; and the Irish Museum of Modern Art. While I am aware that these institutions are primarily based in Dublin, save the National Museum's Museum of Country Life in County Mayo, Senators should note that all bodies have in place a loans policy. The loans policy also allows selected artefacts or collections of artefacts to be exhibited throughout the country and overseas. For example, I am pleased to say that the National Museum has recently arranged to lend the Derrynaflan hoard to Tipperary South Riding County Museum for autumn 2002.

The Irish Museum of Modern Art has created an outstanding national programme whereby works from the collection travel extensively throughout Ireland to schools, libraries and art centres. The National Gallery of Ireland has implemented a successful loans programme and in the last 12 months the Art to Art exhibition has toured six venues in Ireland. The National Archives and the National Library also operate a loans policy and have lent archival material, manuscripts, graphic and photographic material to other institutions and bodies within the country.

Senators will also be aware that I recently opened a new Museum of Country Life for the National Museum of Ireland at Turlough Park House, Castlebar, County Mayo. I am convinced that this new branch of the national institution will be very successful. The investment at Turlough Park House was almost £15 million and demonstrates very well this Government's genuine commitment to the regions. The new Museum of Country Life has attracted over 40,000 visitors since opening.

Also under section 2 of the Bill, Senators will note that a heritage object is defined as any object or collection of objects including archaeological objects, and objects relating to the decorative arts, natural sciences, history, industry or folk-ways; any book or any manuscript, other material or part thereof; copyright in any work, or any similar object or material. The Bill states that when a heritage object is being acquired it must be considered appropriate for inclusion in the collection of the relevant eligible institution by the director or chief executive officer of that institution. In the absence of a director or chief executive officer, the Bill allows for a proposed acquisition by any other person who is, at that time, performing the functions of director or chief executive officer. The members of the Council of National Cultural Institutions will decide, before they make a recommendation to me, if the proposed acquisition is an outstanding example of its type and if it is pre-eminent in its class.

I emphasise that each eligible institution has its own individual acquisition budget and this will continue. However, Senators will be aware that many significant items which should be acquired for the national collections are being sold on the market for prices far in excess of the financial resources available in normal circumstances to the institutions. It is, therefore, appropriate that this fund is established to make further financial resources available for the acquisition of heritage objects. It will allow for the purchase of important and key artefacts that these institutions may not have been in a position to acquire up until now.

I must emphasise that these institutions are national institutions. It is vital therefore that, if we are to safeguard the nation's heritage and culture, major acquisitions should be made which will ultimately enlarge their principal collections. Such acquisitions may then be displayed and interpreted for the people of Ireland to value and enjoy. These acquisitions will also have a key role to play within the education and academic research arenas as well as providing an added incentive for overseas visitors to come to Ireland. Senators will appreciate that the heritage fund is essentially a fund for the acquisition of outstanding artefacts and should not be regarded as a grant scheme for obtaining artefacts generally.

Part 2 of the Bill deals with the specific operation of the heritage fund. Following consultation with me, it allows for the fund to consist of such accounts as the Minister for Finance may determine. It also contains provisions in section 3(3) with regard to accounting procedures so that the operation of the fund will be clear and transparent. It stipulates that, not later than three months after the end of each financial year, I, as Minister, shall submit the accounts of the fund, in both the Irish and English languages, to the Comptroller and Auditor General for audit. I shall also cause a copy of an abstract of the audited accounts together with a copy of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. This will be conducted no later than three months following my receipt of the relevant report.

Under section 3(4), there is a provision which permits the Minister for Finance to manage the fund. The Bill allows for any moneys standing to the credit of the fund that are not, for the time being, required for the purpose of making payments, to be invested by the Minister for Finance. This includes such securities, other than shares in a company, as the Minister for Finance considers appropriate. It also allows for the deposit of moneys in a credit institution in the currency of the State, whether within the State or not. The Minister for Finance may also from time to time at his or her discretion vary or sell any investments made by him or her. Naturally, all income received from investments, along with the proceeds of the sale of any such investments, will be paid into the fund.

So that the financial resources will be built up to the limit of £10 million, the Bill allows for Exchequer funds to be paid into the fund from the Vote of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. It will permit funds to be accumulated, subject to an overall limit of £10 million, as follows: the sum of £3 million in the financial year of 2001, which is provided for in this year's Estimate; the sum of £2 million in each of the financial years 2002, 2003 and 2004 and, finally, the sum of £1 million in the financial year 2005. Of course, moneys standing to the credit of the fund shall not be used for any purposes other than those specified in this Bill.

In addition to the aforementioned Exchequer funding, other methods of increasing the amount in the heritage fund are proposed under section 6 of this Bill. Following a recommendation from the Council of National Cultural Institutions I, as Minister, may accept a gift of moneys or land for the purpose of benefiting the fund. The Bill also stipulates in section 6(3) that I cannot accept a gift of moneys, land or other property if the trusts or conditions attached to it would be inconsistent with my functions or the functions of the Minister for Finance under this Bill.

Section 7 provides that following a recommendation from the Council of National Cultural Institutions, I, as Minister, may pay out of the fund an amount of money. This payment will be for the purpose of defraying, in whole or in part, any expenditure incurred in purchasing a heritage object, where I consider it appropriate to do so. The Bill stipulates, however, that a payment will not be made out of the fund for a purpose specified if the fair market value of the heritage object concerned is, in my opinion, less than £250,000 or such greater amount as may be specified by an order made with the consent of the Minister for Finance. As stated earlier, the aim of the fund is to acquire unique and significant heritage items and it is not a general top-up for annual acquisition budgets.

Any payment of moneys out of the fund shall be made to the person who has incurred or will incur the expenditure concerned or has incurred or will incur the liability to defray such expenditure. This will, in most cases, be the appropriate eligible institution or its appointed agents. As the Minister for Finance manages the fund, payments shall only be made out of the fund with the consent of the Minister for Finance.

With reference to accountability, the Bill at section 8 provides for the preparation and publishing of an annual report in both Irish and English. In accordance with this provision, I will arrange to prepare the annual report during the relevant financial year and arrange for copies of the report to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and published. This will be carried out every year, within a timeframe of not later than three months after the end of the appropriate financial year.

With regard to part 3 of the Bill, it is vital that mechanisms are in place to ensure that the heritage fund is used effectively and productively. Just over three years ago, on 21 October 1998, I officiated at the inaugural meeting of the Council of National Cultural Institutions, which was established by me in line with the commitment in the Government's Action Programme for the Millennium. The aim of the council is to pool together the collective resources of talent, experience and vision of the member institutions in furtherance of the national cultural interest. It is proposed under this Bill that the Council of National Cultural Institutions will have a statutory power and responsibility to make recommendations to me in relation to acquisitions using this fund.

The Council of National Cultural Institutions comprises the directors or chief executives of the following cultural institutions: the National Museum of Ireland, the National Library of Ireland, the National Gallery of Ireland, the Arts Council, the Heritage Council, the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the National Concert Hall, the Chester Beatty Library, the National Theatre Society Limited, and the National Archive.

During the past three years, the council members have worked and performed well together. The members have undertaken research and development programmes. Several working groups have been established and areas of common concern such as information technology, marketing, education and training have been examined. Under the council, the information exchange emanating from the contacts between staff from the various institutions has proved extremely valuable. This Bill will allow the council to proceed with its present work programme and meet in a non-statutory setting whereby the members will continue to co-operate on matters of mutual interest and concern. The council's work programme will continue as before. This Bill only contains statutory provisions relating to the powers being given under it to the Council of National Cultural Institutions relating to the heritage fund.

The Bill at section 10 confers powers to allow the council to hold meetings to discuss the proposals for expenditure from the heritage fund as the members deem necessary and accordingly to make recommendations to me relating to acquisitions using the fund. The council may under this provision conduct their meetings as they so wish. At a meeting of the council, members present will select a chairperson of the meeting. Every question that falls to be decided at a meeting of the council shall be determined by a majority of the votes of the members present. In the case of an equal division of votes, the chairperson of the meeting shall have a second or casting vote. The council may act notwithstanding one or more vacancies among its members and the members will regulate their procedures by rules or otherwise. The Bill allows for ten members of the council and provides that, the quorum for a meeting is given as six.

Sections 11 and 12 of the Bill provide for the disclosure of certain interests by members of council and the prohibition of unauthorised dis closure of information. Section 11 covers the disclosure of interests by council members. A member will inform the meeting if he or she has an interest in the matter being discussed and will disclose any details of such interest and the nature thereof. The disclosure will then be recorded in the minutes of the meeting concerned and, for so long as the matter to which the disclosure relates is being dealt with by the meeting, the member by whom the disclosure is made shall not take part in the deliberation of the meeting on that matter. Section 12 covers the prohibition of unauthorised disclosure of information. A person shall not disclose confidential information obtained by him or her while performing duties as a member of the council during meetings held to discuss the heritage fund. The provisions given under sections 11 and 12 of the Bill are standard. I have ensured that the provisions in this Bill do not give rise to any potential conflict between the roles of the directors or chief executives as council members and their role towards their respective boards. Section 13 deals with penalties and is broadly a standard provision.

Since this Bill was first published, it has come to my attention that questions have been raised about the future of the existing tax relief scheme for donations of important national heritage items. I stress that the provisions contained in the Heritage Fund Bill, 2001, are entirely separate from, but complementary to, the provisions already contained in the scheme for tax relief for donation of heritage objects, as provided for under section 1003 of the Taxes Consolidation Act, 1997 – formerly section 176 of the Finance Act, 1995. Members may be aware of the success of this latter scheme in attracting the donation of important national heritage items to the Irish national collections. A tax credit equal to the value of the heritage item or items donated is allowed to the donor, which can then be credited against particular tax liabilities incurred by the donor.

This scheme for tax relief for the donation of heritage objects has resulted in many outstanding artefacts and collections being donated to the various national cultural institutions. For example, the Brian Friel archive was donated to the National Library of Ireland. This archive comprises all original workings and manuscripts of all Brian Friel's plays, as well as large quantities of his correspondence with other contemporary Irish writers and artists. Under the tax donation scheme, the National Gallery of Ireland acquired the beautiful and delightful painting entitled "A Musical Party" by the Dutch artist Gerrit van Honthorst. Another important donation concerns a collection of modern art, the Maurice Foley collection. This collection comprises a varied collection of 20th century art, which was donated to the Irish Museum of Modern Art. This was an important addition to the museum's collection.

I emphasise that the existing tax relief scheme for donations of important national heritage items will continue in tandem with the heritage fund. They are two separate schemes but I believe that both mechanisms can work alongside one another to ensure that the national cultural institutions build substantially on their present collections.

Members will understand that it is not possible, nor is it wise, to forecast what will be purchased for the institutions under the Heritage Fund. It is, however, worth mentioning the acquisition of the Circe manuscript just 12 months ago. I was successful in acquiring this incredible 27-page manuscript for the National Library of Ireland, which is regarded as the centrepiece of James Joyce's masterpiece, Ulysses. The sale of this exceptional Joyce manuscript attracted a lot of interest and there was an uneasy feeling that its eventual home may not have been Ireland. I took steps to ensure that this did not happen, because apart from some note sheets in the British Library, there is no other Ulysses material in Ireland and indeed throughout the whole of Europe. Circe is a magnificent treasure and there was a possibility that it could been lost to a private collector or an overseas library. Over a year ago, there was no statutory fund and it was only possible to acquire this outstanding artefact because of additional funding made available by my colleague, the Minister for Finance. The manuscript was purchased for $1.4 million or £ 1.385 million. I am pleased to say that the manuscript is now on exhibition in the National Library and has been viewed by many visitors. It is also available to Joycean scholars and academics and has been described as one of the most intriguing Joyce manuscripts as it produces many insights concerning the composition of Circe and of Ulysses.I stress the importance of the heritage fund as it will be the first time that the national collecting cultural institutions will have additional funding to enable them to expand their collections with significant and important artefacts. Senators will appreciate that £3 million or €3.809 million has already been provided for in my Department's Estimate for this year for payment into the fund when established. Clearly, given the time frame, it is critical that this Bill be enacted in the current financial year and I would welcome the co-operation of the House in securing this objective. I look forward to hearing the contributions during this debate.

I welcome the Minister and assure her she will have our full co-operation in getting this Bill through in good time. I have no difficulty taking all Stages today should that be useful. I was amused when the Minister said that section 12 covers the prohibition of unauthorised disclosure of information and that a person shall not disclose confidential information obtained by him or her while performing duties as a member of the council during meetings held to discuss the heritage fund. I presume the same proviso applies to the Irish Museum of Modern Art. I am quite sure it was something that was honoured more in the breach than in the observance in recent weeks, and I will say a word or two about that later. It is one of these very useful, worthy and exhortatory things we see in legislation which has no impact whatsoever when it comes to the reality because people will leak and there is nothing one can do about it and it is rarely the person one thinks it is. The Minister has been long enough in politics to know that.

That said, this is a very useful little Bill. It is modest in scope but, if properly used, is capable of achieving a great deal. It is capable of making a very big impact in important and specific areas. In some ways, it is almost an emergency type measure, or a measure which can be used in an emergency, and which was very badly needed. In the past, we have seen important items come on the market – often very suddenly. We live in a world in which there are people with great resources who value such artefacts, who can move very quickly and who pay a very high price. It is in the nature of the State bureaucracy that it moves slowly, especially where the Department of Finance is concerned. Getting sanction for extra spending is extremely difficult. Maybe in the case of the horse racing industry, things can be speeded up but in matters cultural, it may take a little bit longer. This is a stand alone measure which will enable the interests of the State and State institutions to act very quickly where speed is of the essence. The sums involved are not huge but they are, in current terms, generous. Presumably the fund will be kept topped up and, in future years, may very well be increased.

The Minister mentioned the way in which she and her Department acted to get the Circe manuscript – I am not sure how it is pronounced. I am sure Senator Hayes will tell us the correct pronunciation when he speaks.

It depends on the university to which one went.

Or on whether it was ecclesiastical or secular Latin.

In any event, the Minister is to be congratulated again on what was done there without the presence of a fund such as this. In the future, should something important come on the market, I hope this fund will ensure it will be possible to take action if it is judged to be in the national interest by people who are qualified to do so. That is the essence of this Bill and is something I totally support. I want to see the Bill enacted as soon as possible.

There was some criticism in the other House about the fact the six institutions were all based in Dublin. Some of my colleagues named very worthy and good institutions outside Dublin which were not included. I do not agree with that criticism and the Minister made the point well that these are national institutions and that they have a very broad remit and cover the entire nation. They are the proper homes for whatever artefacts are purchased, especially since most of them – not all of them obviously – where it is appropriate, have flexible and good systems in place to enable such items to the dispersed and put on view around the country. The Book of Kells has not quite got as far as Kells yet and I rather doubt if it will but that is an institution which is not under the Minister's control. It probably would not be appropriate that it should so do but the point is fairly clear and straightforward.

The Minister mentioned two of the national centres – the National Archives and the Irish Museum of Modern Art – and I would like to refer briefly to each and in a way which, I hope, is not contentious. The National Archives is truly one of the great treasures of this country. Ever since it was established by Dr. Garret FitzGerald, who, as Taoiseach, took the legislation through the Houses in the 1980s, it has performed an invaluable service. It has taken over and brought together the existing national archive material and has set about doing its business in a thoroughly professional manner. It has been hampered by lack of resources but the cases it has made to various Governments have been listened to. I would not have much doubt that there is a determination that the National Archives will not be starved of resources and that it will have the wherewithal to do its job. In its own small way, apart from doing what it is there to do, it is a considerable generator of tourism income. Scholars and people researching their family tree come to the National Archives. If one goes there during the summer, as I often do when I am doing my own research, one is struck the number of people who come, in effect, as cultural or literary tourists to use the archive.

I am concerned about two aspects of archive policy. One aspect, which may not necessarily be the work of the National Archives, is the extent to which the local authorities are acting on the brief they were given in an earlier Bill to ensure they build up and collect archive material. Maybe the Minister and her officials have some idea of the extent to which this policy is being implemented. I suspect it is fairly patchy and varies from council to council and where there are people available.

The second aspect is a much bigger concern I have and it is about the archives in many of the semi-State bodies or those which were semi-State. The semi-State bodies were part of the building of the fabric of this country from the ESB back in 1927 through to the Sugar Company, CIE, Bord na Móna, An Post to Telecom Éireann. All these companies were involved in building part of the history of this country. While State boards and Departments are obliged to keep archives and records, to show their catalogues and so on and to hand them over to the National Archives, there is no such obligation on non-State companies. I raised this before and I am very concerned about it. Does anybody think for one moment that the directors of Eircom will give a damn about what archive material is there as they put their eye on the bottom line and as they engage in cost cutting? They will not have the national sense to say what they now have was part of a very valuable part of our national fabric. I think we may well have lost valuable archive material there.

It should be mandatory bodies such as the ESB, a great national institution, especially since they may well be privatised, to ensure that if that happens, at least a real archive is being handed over to the State or to one of the other institutions which do our archives. CIE is another example. I had the great privilege the other day to be invited to see the restored State coach in Pearse Street station. This was done with the help of CIE but essentially by enthusiasts and amateurs who did a wonderful job. CIE must have a great deal of valuable material, either artefacts or documentary material, in its possession. It is quite possible that this is not a priority for CIE in the current climate and what it is involved in but it would be a great mistake if this went by default. I am thinking of Bord na Móna and other institutions as well. Will the Minister extend the archives legislation in some way to oblige the State boards to pay some attention to the question of archives?

Like many other people, I throw my hands up in the air where the Irish Museum of Modern Art is concerned. I was appalled this weekend at the character assassination of Mrs. Donnelly. I do not know the woman from Adam. I have never met her in my life, but it is appalling that somebody who took up a public position to do public service should end up in the Sunday newspapers and be the victim of character assassination, snide remarks and anonymous non-attributable comments.

The Minister is not involved whatsoever in this. I have no problem at all with her role in the matter. I am just examining the treatment of a person who does public service. Mrs. Donnelly's policies may have been right or wrong. Personally, I think her objectives were correct in trying to shake up the museum in the first place. The methods she used may not have been diplomatic or as well thought through as was possible or required. I will not comment of the controversy but I think it is appalling that a board should leak information the way it did leading to the vilification of somebody who may have been wrong but who was certainly getting nothing out of her position and was putting a great deal into it. If this is what is to happen to members of boards like this, we will find it difficult to attract good people to sit on them in future. The Minister may not want to comment on the matter today, but it strikes me that she needs to start off from scratch with regard to the board in question and put a totally new one in place. I will not comment on that.

The Bill is good. I was interested in what the Minister had to say about tax relief. Certainly there is a great deal of imagination in the tax relief that is provided, especially since it makes it possible to encourage people to give treasures to the nation. The Maurice Foley collection is very valuable. The Brian Friel manuscripts will provide grist to the mill of hundreds of PhD students over the coming years. Very many scholarly books will probably appear as a result of that archive being made available. That is something I support.

I have a question to ask which may be born of ignorance. When the new council is set up, is it the intention that it will be proactive and seek artefacts, manuscripts and so forth, or will its role be to react when something happens, largely existing as a fire brigade or rescue mission that goes out when some crisis arises? Otherwise, I do not have much more to say on the Bill. It is a Bill with which I agree totally. It will be useful. Future generations may very well be grateful that this Bill was passed.

Is mian liom i dtosach fáilte a chur roimh an Aire. I assure her that if I seem somewhat speechless, it is no reflection on the Bill. It is just a gentle reminder of our mortality. I hope I do not irritate anybody too much with my cold today.

Coming as I do from the historic city of Cashel, the city of the kings, anything that relates to heritage always strikes a very favourable chord within me. I genuinely compliment the Minister on this Bill because, in ways, it indicates that the Government was quick to respond to things it had learned when certain artefacts became available and it was not always necessary to bring in or to endeavour to get unspecified money at short notice. For that reason, it is particularly important.

At the weekend, I had the privilege of going to a cultural event in Boston. My hosts brought me to the Wayside Inn, which was one of the inns from the 1700s – one of the original inns. It would have been frequented by legislators, writers, poets and so on. However, it is still in use today. I spoke to some of the staff there. I noticed the great reverence they had for their heritage as embodied by this inn. At the same time, there was a little stirring of national pride within me because I did not feel overawed in any sense. I never do when I go to some of these bigger countries. I can appreciate fully their sense of pride, but when one talks of 200 or 300 years of history, one is talking about a particularly short period of time. When one thinks of our antiquity and genius, which is not only celebrated in Ireland but internationally as well, one can see how we compete very favourably in that particular field. Owing to that celebration internationally and because of the mobility of our people abroad, it often happens that there are artefacts in other countries that relate to our heritage which become part of private collections and we have never had the opportunity to acquire them.

Recently I noticed that the Cashel Charter was returned to Cashel. I could not even start to emphasise the excitement that it generated, and not just among the local community and media. To some, the Cashel Charter might be seen as no more than a simple document, but when one relates it to one's own community and puts it into the context of its time and the subsequent historical development of that community, it takes on a new importance.

I also remember when the Derrynaflan hoard was discovered. Although it made the national news at the time, there was a sense of ownership of it locally. Many people started to look for clues in things they had read on previous occasions. I remember one person saying the clue was in the My Clonmel Scrapbook and that if one had examined it closely, one would have realised there was something particularly valuable and important buried in Derrynaflan.

A sense of ownership exists in a community when something is discovered or has a source in that community. That is why it is very important that we never think in terms of something being taken away from the community, its admiration of the artefact or its scholarly analysis thereof when that artefact is purchased. I am glad to say that in recent years there has been more emphasis on openness, even though some of our treasures travel from place to place. As has been mentioned, people have been given the opportunity to see these treasures at firsthand. We should not underestimate that in any sense. Even at the worst of times, when we were not particularly affluent, there were always people who realised the intrinsic value of these artefacts. It was not just that they helped to underline the genius we had in our midst, but they also created or enhanced the sense of national pride. I always think that the next generation of genius emerges from that pride. It is vital that people are afforded the opportunity of being proud of what we are. This may relate to manuscripts, other types of artefacts or things that are merely symbolic of what we are as a people.

It is very important that we do not let valuable artefacts slip in terms of priority. That is why I am glad, now that we are somewhat more affluent, that there is much more heritage activity – thanks to the Minister, her Department, the Government and other agencies. When the Council of National Cultural Institutions was first set up, it struck me that that was a very important move in itself as there is always the difficulty that when an institution specialises in one aspect of our heritage, ownership tends sometimes to be focused on the institution rather than on the people on whose behalf it is acting. When a number of institutions came together and one could see that each could maintain its own autonomy while realising that a certain strength could be gained from interaction and pooling of ideas, that was good progress and I could see it would help us with much of the heritage work that remains to be done.

The £10 million is a lot of money when one considers that is in addition to the money already available to the institutions and that the money must be used specifically for those items which are deemed vital or essential to our national col lections and which would not be purchased out of existing budgets. That is one of the main strengths of the Bill. It will focus our minds on artefacts and items that might otherwise be ignored or that we might feel were out of reach and thus we may not enter the marketplace in an effort to find them. That is the importance of the Bill and the bottom ceiling per item of £250,000 is important in itself as otherwise the money could be seen as topping up existing budgets or it could be spent on a number of smaller items within a specified time. That should not be the focus in this measure and it is not, which is why I am glad these specific measures are included in the Bill.

We should be glad that relatively large sums of money are being spent on heritage as it has helped us to develop economically. When one travels abroad one soon finds that for a small country, which was not in the international market until recently, heritage is often what distinguishes us and makes us somewhat important. This sometimes supports us in another forum as we are not just seen as a country of four million or five million people, with a certain budget, but as a country that should be looked up to. I remember travelling to the Osaka Expo in the 1990s when the central focus was on gardens. Ireland decided to enter a replica of Newgrange as our contribution. My understanding is that the cost at the time was approximately £150,000, which was quite small, and it is to the eternal credit of Charles J. Haughey who backed the entry and insisted that Ireland would be there. Other countries' entries cost up to £6 million as against our £150,000, but because of the antiquity of Japan and because we chose Newgrange, we won the gold medal.

I was present on the day Mr. Haughey presented the medal in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, and there was a little stirring of pride as it was not about the amount of finance made available but about those who were kindred brothers and sisters like us, who identified with our respect for antiquity and our genius spreading back over the centuries. We could go out there and win and the same could be said about any of our major treasures such as the Book of Kells, the Derrynaflan hoard and so on.

When some treasures went on tour they matched the great treasures of Egypt and other countries. When our national treasures were on tour I know there were subsequent ripples of worry about security and safety but one will never understand the sense of pride that existed among the Irish community abroad and the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, who came to see those treasures. The Irish brought their friends along and no amount of economic success or trumpeting of some of our more modern successes could match what that did for our national pride abroad. Again, there is more to this than just putting these in a secure place as they will definitely have an impact.

A survey which was carried out six or seven years ago at a cost of £6 million or £7 million for the tourist industry highlighted the main pursuits of tourists who had already been here – 70% of people listed visits to national monuments as their main pursuit. It was the top attraction for them. If we quantify what that means to our economy, it is huge. We have reached a stage where, with 250,000 visitors per year to the Rock of Cashel, we are wondering if we should have a cut-off point. That is indicative of how important these are to national pride. If we had to compete with sunshine or other attractions we would not be able to compete but we can compete when it comes to heritage. That is why spending £10 million over five years, in addition to the money already spent, will draw no criticism from any person in the country.

I did not realise my voice would hold this long. Regarding decentralisation, there are artefacts which cannot go on display for reasons of space or other factors. The Minister is fully tuned into the idea of getting artefacts back to the people. I know certain environmental conditions and security are needed but in future, with advance planning in relation to new centres or existing museums, it would be worth considering the possibility of returning many artefacts which may not even be on display to the areas whence they came. I would like to see a situation where we could have at least a temporary loan, lasting a number of years, of the Derrynaflan hoard and other items of that kind. One will hear the usual arguments made and I appreciate the difficulties.

I would be the last person to suggest we should endanger any of these items in any way but it would help to address the point Senator Manning made about the five national institutions which will operate under this Bill. He said they were all Dublin-based. I do not particularly go along with that as they are national institutions, but perception is important. Those who discovered, protected and nourished artefacts in their localities should be rewarded by allowing the artefacts to return to a museum in the area. As my voice is fading, I will conclude by appealing to the Minister to consider a more proactive approach. She will be highly respected if she does so, although she is greatly appreciated at present.

I will share the last five minutes of my time with Senator Norris, with the permission of the House.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Fáiltím an Bille seo agus táim sásta tacaíocht a thabhairt dó. Is breá go bhfuil sé os ár gcomhair inniú. In a lán slite tá an Bille topiciúil, mar chualamar scéal ó Belmullet i rith dheireadh na seachtaine. A person walking through a bog suddenly came across a gold torc, which is over 2,500 years old and of great cultural value. Many people watching television over the weekend must have wondered where the artefact will end up. The person who found the gold torc deserves to be rewarded in a way that is good for the community.

I am glad the Minister drew attention to section 1003 of the Taxes Consolidation Act, 1997, which allows people to receive a tax credit for donating artefacts and other items of cultural value to the State. I suggest that a double tax credit be allowed for such a donation, although perhaps it is a little late for tomorrow, even if the Minister for Finance is still working in his office. Double tax allowances are sometimes allowed for matters like rent reviews, at little cost to the State. The public is not aware of the fact that such allowances are available and people should be informed of the possibilities. I am sure that many cultural items could be donated if people knew they could be compensated in this way.

The loans policy of museums, galleries and other institutions, to which the Minister drew attention, is good. Many school groups visit Leinster House and young people may grow up believing that Dublin is the centre of Irish culture, as many of us from outside Dublin believed when we were young. Young people have to come to Dublin to observe our cultural heritage, apart from the built environment. I suggested in this House some years ago that the Book of Kells be sent back to Kells and that the Ardagh Chalice be sent back to Ardagh.

The Senator could be sent back to Dingle.

I would be happy to be sent back to Dingle if people there would have me and if the House would support such a move.

That is debatable.

It is good to see that such a policy is being developed by the loans policy of the museums. I support fully an méid atá ráite ag an Seanadóir Ó Murchú mar gheall ar na rudaí nach bhfuil ar fáil go hoscailte sna músaeim. Many artefacts are held in the dungeons of museums. I recently became aware that some extraordinarily interesting pieces of parliamentary history are stored in the cellars of Leinster House. A great deal of material of historical value, which we do not really appreciate, could be sent around the country.

I am interested in the Minister's attempt to define culture, which is a difficult thing to do. Various meanings have been given to heritage objects. I suggested six months ago that an institution of the State should buy the LE Deirdre, which was being decommissioned and which was eventually sold for about £200,000. The ship is an important part of our maritime heritage, which has been neglected, although Hook Head lighthouse has been opened to visitors. The LE Deirdre would have been an attractive visitor attraction on the docks in Limerick, or nearby in County Clare, if that had been preferable. An opportunity has been lost. This Bill facilitates the possibility of such a purchase and I hope that the provision will be used in the broadest possible manner.

I cannot make up my mind whether it is a good thing that the council is entirely composed of professionals in this area, including the directors of various cultural institutions who have great expertise. Having read accounts of recent events, I am sure there is a great sense of comfort for the Minister in having professional people on the council rather than those who arrive overnight with bright ideas. There is a great deal that can be said in favour of the composition of the council, but does the Minister feel there is also a need to include those with a more amateur approach?

The idea of balancing the loans policy of museums with additional money means that an equivalence of access to our cultural heritage can be created. There is a strong case for creating outreach museums in smaller towns rather than loaning artefacts to the towns. There is no reason museums to deal with matters other than local history cannot be built in local areas, although I have nothing against local history. The space could be filled with material from the national museums which would be allocated to various areas on a rota basis. There is a strong case for doing this in areas of Ireland which do not have natural tourist attractions. I was recently in Portumna and I visited the beautiful Portumna Castle which has fine gardens and walks. I felt that there should be a building in the town, however, to house artefacts from the locality.

I support this Bill, although I feel there should be a double tax credit, based on section 1003 of the Taxes Consolidation Act, 1997, for those who donate items of cultural value to the State. We should recognise that £10 million, which has been provided to protect our heritage and to present it to further generations, is a significant amount of money and that a good day's work has been done. I welcome this Bill.

I thank my colleague, Senator O'Toole, for his generosity in allowing me to contribute to this debate. The recent remarkable discovery of two gold torcs has connected us to an ancient period of our past. I do not have much difficulty with religious mysteries, but one of the greatest mysteries is the mystery of time. As I speak, the future is merging into the present and fading away into the past. Our consciousness always reminds me of something I used to hear about in mathematics class, that a point has location but no dimension. The rule is also true, to a certain extent, of human consciousness, as we are like a bullet shooting forward. Unless we have the resonance of memory and the content of the past, life can be very bewildering. Cultural artefacts are valuable as they give us a purchase or a hold on our past and a connection with the generations that went before us.

I applaud the notion of loaning cultural artefacts to other museums. We can acquire as much historical material as we like but without proper and informed access, it will become like the "mummified thoughts, locked into a library" referred to by James Joyce. It is terribly important that we have the money to acquire cultural artefacts. I congratulate the Minister, who is dedicated to this matter and who has taken many risks. I was marginally involved in such a risk, when the immensely important Circe manuscript of Joyce's Ulysses was acquired. I pay tribute to the significant role played by Bob Joyce in its acquisition. I am sure the Minister will join me in extending to him our good wishes as he has been very ill recently although I believe he is on the way to recovery.

Prior to the acquisition of this important working draft, we did not really have anything of significance from the greatest novel of the 20th century. Its importance was brought home to me recently when I received a query from a school teacher in Portlaoise on the opening section of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Stephen's particular pronunciation difficulties at that age should have resulted in him saying “the geen wothe botheth” when reciting his poem but the first printer inserted the “r” in green, an error repeated thereafter. The teacher, who was interested in linguistics, pointed out that the child would not have pronounced the words in that way. I was able to confirm that as a result of the manuscript donated to the National Library by Miss Weaver. It is wonderful that schools throughout the country interested in this subject can bring their classes to the National Library to see the manuscript.

I note the Minister's reference to the tax donation scheme and the delightful painting entitled "A Musical Party" by Gerrit van Honthorst which presumably came out of some house by way of death duties. It would be a real courtesy if copies of frames and portraits were returned to the houses from which they came. The process is quite simple – I acquired high definition negatives of the Joyce family portraits from the University of Buffalo in New York and it is impossible to distinguish between the copies and the originals. These houses, particularly those open to the public, look very naked when paintings are removed from them. It would be an appropriate and enriching gesture for all involved to return copies of original works to these houses.

I want to refer to the Leslie archive from Castle Leslie mentioned in today's newspapers. The Leslie family is a wonderful family which echoes the many changes and troubles of Irish life from colonising Anglican bishops to a curious conversion to Catholicism, curious because it only lasted three weeks due to Sir Shane's decision, before catching sight of a lissom lass, to become a priest. His interest in the priesthood, rather than his faith, was weakened as a result. A very important archive has been acquired at a cost of £500,000 although a much more significant archive tragically went to the USA 30 or 40 years ago.

Castle Leslie is a very important house and dry rot is rampant in certain parts of the building. I admire Samantha Leslie's immense courage in taking on this project on behalf of her uncle, Sir John. These families must be assisted. The library in Castle Leslie which features specially made book shelves is a most beautiful room and it must be preserved. Books often have a greater resonance when displayed in their original venue. I understand the remarkable Worth library has been returned to Dr. Steeven's Hospital, a development which I welcome.

I pay tribute to Desmond Guinness and the Georgian Society not just for saving Castletown House and other similar houses but also for acquiring much of the original furniture from these houses. Irish Chippendale furniture, which is not actually made by Chippendale although the name stuck, is unique and has an important financial value as it is possible to make high quality reproductions of some of these important artefacts and export them to America, thereby generating revenue.

The Knight of Glin, an agent for all the great auction houses, is a significant collector and draws appropriate items to the attention of relevant parties. Some weeks ago, I visited Kilruddery in County Meath where Lady Meath showed me a blue and white bowl, not the type of item about which anyone other than a collector of blue and white artefacts would normally become overly excited, which featured an early 18th century picture of Kilruddery. The bowl obviously had a greater resonance as a result of being displayed in Kilruddery.

Not surprisingly, I welcome this Bill. The Friends of Trinity Library, of which I am chairman, holds various fundraising functions as a result of which the library has been able to make significant acquisitions. For example, it recently acquired a very significant 18th century play to add to its archives.

I applaud the development of the Museum of Country Life. A friend of mine in North Great George's Street has installed in his home a beautiful settle bed from County Clare, whose Irishness is immediately apparent. Johnstown Castle incorporates a marvellous agricultural and famine museum which features old implements. I am old enough to recall some of these implements and machinery, the old Ferguson tractor being one example. These museums show the way people lived in the past. As life becomes more automated, these things pass out of our memories and we should preserve them. It is regrettable that Johnstown Castle itself is rather neglected and is not open to the public.

We will consider our built heritage at a future date and I intend to make an urgent plea to the Minister on that occasion. Samantha Leslie has applied for assistance to keep Castle Leslie going. I know the plea will touch the Minister's heart because Samantha Leslie informed me only three weeks ago that her father, Sir Shane, a consul in the US at the time, was instrumental in securing the Minister's grandfather's life by pointing out his American citizenship. I sincerely hope assistance will be provided to preserve this wonderful house and its contents, many of which have been dispersed. It is heartbreaking to visit these houses, in which families live, and see the family furniture having to be sold off. It is very upsetting to see these beautiful pieces of furniture and art, many of which are Irish made, going abroad although it is some consolation to see some of them returning to Irish collections.

I welcome the Minister to the House for the debate on this very important legislation. It is critical that the State should be able to intervene to secure important heritage objects, such as the Circe document, on whose acquisition the Minister is to be applauded, which could otherwise be lost. In this age of globalisation, there is a real danger that objects which form part of our identity will find their way out of the country and become lost to us forever. I do not want to indulge in similar depths of philosophy to Senator Norris but I agree that the present is informed by the past, although sometimes not always in a healthy way.

It is important that significant heritage objects can be viewed by the public. Senators are fortunate to be surrounded by significant heritage objects in this House such as the fireplace, the chandeliers, the ceiling and so on. We take these objects for granted as they are part of our everyday lives. It is only when they cease to be so that their significance begins to dawn on us.

The Bill is well balanced in terms of the size of the fund and the £250,000 lower limit. The latter will ensure that museums have the resources and competence to secure objects of major significance but low value. I empathise with Senator Norris's comments, particularly those regarding agricultural objects. During debate on the Heritage Act when Deputy Michael D. Higgins was Minister, I achieved a rare success in opposition by securing an amendment regarding the age of heritage objects. The age provided for in that Act, as drafted, was too long. Due to the changes in, and pace of, society some heritage objects are no more than 25 years old. As a result, some of the objects with which we were familiar growing up, and with which I am familiar as a farmer, are no longer to be seen except in agricultural museums. These heritage objects are very much a part of what we are.

The balance in the Bill is correct in terms of the £250,000 lower limit and £10 million over five years. However, is £10 million adequate? I watch "The Antiques Roadshow" and the values placed on some of the featured objects are remarkable. A small item was featured on a recent programme which, if its provenance could be proved, would have a direct connection with George Bernard Shaw. Such a connection would have acquired a value of about £100,000 for an object which was otherwise insignificant. The Minister will be aware of such cases because of the Joyce collection and so on, but will she comment on the adequacy of the £10 million?

I accept Senator Manning's point and it is correct that most of these items should be centred in Dublin. That is a reasonable proposal in a country of this size. However, it is important that items are loaned or made available to local heritage centres. I visited the north Mayo heritage centre in Enniscoe which houses an extensive record of those who left Mayo. People can use this record to discover their roots and there is also an agricultural museum. It is important that heritage items which are languishing in vaults are housed at such locations and are seen by a wider public.

As a member of Kildare County Council, I have been concerned with items regarding social history, even the council's records. Kildare County Council recently built new offices and I was successful in tabling a motion proposing establishing a county archive. Subsequent legislation has dealt with some of these issues and Kildare now has an archivist. However, some of these records are critical to the social history of Kildare. Modern society is losing its sense of place and anything which reinforces such a sense is to be encouraged and welcomed. Objects of social history are important and worthy of protection, even though they are of little monetary value. Some of these valuable records have been lost as a result of damp or the manner in which they were stored.

Our built heritage, as referred to by Senator Norris, is important and we will discuss this issue later. I do not wish to stray from the legislation but I recently took part in a debate on local radio with an eminent person from An Taisce as a result of which I wonder if Carton House or Castletown House would be built today? I think I can say with certainty that they would not be built, even if someone had the resources to do so. Some of those opposed to the building of single houses in the country and who favour a pristine rural built environment in which no one lives, which they can leave cities to view, would not tolerate such major heritage buildings for one minute. These houses are worthy of preservation.

I agree with Senator Norris's comments regarding restoration. Significant tax advantages should be made available for restoration, even to the point of the double taxation referred to by Senator O'Toole. This should even apply to the transfer of such items into national ownership. Tony Ryan has done a marvellous job in restoring the Lyons Estate where I did my agricultural training. The building houses significant plasterworks, frescos and so on and very good restoration work has been carried out. Such work is to be applauded and the tax regime should assist wherever possible.

I dealt with the issue of local heritage, but I have some reservations regarding the Council of National Cultural Institutions. I share some of Senator O'Toole's reservations in this regard in that the council is the preserve of the experts. Such experts should be included, but there is the possibility of a contest emerging within the council as to who would secure a particular object. There is provision for a declaration of interest, but I do not know if the scenario to which I referred comes within the scope of such a declaration. Will the Minister elaborate on this issue?

I welcome and applaud the Bill's provisions regarding co-operation on IT, marketing, education, training and so on. However, I wonder about the level of co-operation which will extend to this area when we try to secure particular items.

Section 3(5) of the Bill relates to the securities which the Minister for Finance can hold, other than shares in a company. I wondered what constituted a "company", but that is defined later in the Bill. I suspect the incumbent, the Minister, Deputy McCreevy, would not wish to invest in Eircom, but perhaps he may. In the case of the Deputy, perhaps the best investment would be to allow him to take the money to the Curragh races and he would probably come back with a healthy profit. However, that may be too surreal to contemplate.

I wish to raise one other issue regarding local heritage. Some of the Chester Beatty militaria are located at the Curragh Army museum, but the premises is not adequate for this purpose. It is important that items are displayed properly and not just placed in a room built for some other purpose. There is a case for a military museum in Kildare or at the Curragh. I do not wish to be parochial, but such locations would be appropriate for some of these objects.

Senator Ó Murchú made a good point regarding the need to ensure that the people are central to securing and displaying these objects and what can be learned from them. I hope the Bill achieves its objectives and that the Minister will be in office to preside over the securing of some of these major heritage items and that they are preserved and not lost to us. It is also important that our industrial heritage is provided for in the Bill as such items can easily be lost when buildings are destroyed. These would include old steam engines and aeroplanes. These items should not be lost and I welcome the fact that they are included within the scope of the Bill.

I would like to share my time with Senator Hayes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the Minister. It is clear that her heart is in the right place. She has a great feel for this area and this is reflected in the way she pursued the Circe manuscript of James Joyce and made sure it was brought home to the National Library of Ireland rather than having it in the other end of the world. I am delighted that a structure has been set up and that the national cultural institutions have been given a brief to reach out to the public and to see how best we can expand our heritage collection, in whatever form.

The council has been set up to reflect the workings of the national collecting institutions. I am aware of the importance of the art-to-art programme which brings art out to the broader community. Other Members have referred to the concept of localising and decentralising art. The establishment of strategic policy committees is an important aspect of the current local government reform. One committee in each local authority area deals with arts, culture and public libraries and brings together the artefacts of the local area to link in with the central heritage concept. As the Bill establishes the new central council to reach out and deal with heritage from an educational, research and development point of view, I hope it will also reach out to the local authorities and deal with the strategic policy committees which will be responsible for arts, culture and heritage in each local authority area. There are many bodies which would be interested in stimulating interest in the arts and heritage.

There is a fund of old material in south Dublin, for example. One need only go into the Dublin mountains to see interesting old buildings. Our built heritage has been mentioned but that will be for another day's discussion. The two aspects of the matter should go hand in hand. The new council should link in with local authorities. This would be a good thing.

I welcome the tax relief for donors of important national heritage items. This measure opens the door for people who own items of significance. The Bill has been well thought out and I have no doubt it will be well received. I respect everything the Minister has included in the Bill and I hope she will be in office to implement many aspects of it in the future.

I am grateful to Senator Ormonde for sharing her time with me. I too welcome the Minister to the House. I congratulate her on the Bill and on acquiring the Joyce manuscript. I carefully avoid committing myself to Senator Norris's or Senator Dardis's pronunciation but I think Joyce might have been closer to Senator Dardis than to Senator Norris.

The Minister can see the enthusiasm she has inspired in the House. Most of the points I would have made have already been made. I agree that the Minister is right in defining the national institutions. I wondered whether it would have been possible to include Trinity College library, as a copyright library, as a national institution in all but definition. I support the policy of loans to local museums, provided they can provide the quality of curatorial cover, environmental conditions, security and presentational standards which would obtain in other museums. I certainly support Senator Ó Murchú in that. However, I am not sure we would argue quite so strongly for the return of the contents of the Chester Beatty Library to their place of origin. They may be safer where they are.

The Bill is narrowly focused on objects of great value. Many of the objects mentioned by Senators as worthy of conservation and acquisition, particularly by local authorities, are outside the scope of the Bill, given the threshold of £250,000 which the Minister very wisely stipulated. We should think of the Bill as a fire brigade exercise, to be used in that way for the acquisition of hugely important items which otherwise would go out of the country.

Like Senators O'Toole and Dardis, I feel the council has an oddly bureaucratic look about it. It could be strengthened if the Minister took the power to appoint one or two people, not amateurs but perhaps people involved in the acquisition of objects on a commercial basis.

I have said this is a fire brigade operation, and it would be a pity if, when the fire brigade is called into action it had to wait to see whether the water company would supply it with water. This brings me to the interposition of the Minister for Finance as an approving, and perhaps a controlling, body. It would be a pity if these eminent people whom the Minister has assembled decided that something was of value, that they would then have to go through the hoop of having the item revalued by some expert on behalf of the Minister for Finance. Given the way the markets work in these matters, the piece might then be lost. Speed is of the essence and I hope the Minister can arrange for this.

As long as objects of national interest are kept on the island we should be content enough. I would not like to see the fund being used to create an auction between an institution in this part of the island and one in Northern Ireland. I am particularly thinking of the very excellent Public Records Office of Northern Ireland. Records would be as well preserved and as accessible there as in the National Archive. I hope, through whatever mechanisms exist for North-South co-operation, it would be possible for these institutions to agree on a co-operative policy to ensure that the best value is got for the money.

I commend the Bill. I am sure the Minister has sensed the full support of the Seanad for the Bill and I congratulate her on it.

I welcome the Minister to the House and I particularly welcome this significant and important Bill. Substantial difficulties still exist for people with large properties which are difficult to maintain. The owners of many large old country houses have had to sell much of the antiquity and archives associated with those houses.

The guidelines of the Bill make it clear that it is not a top-up for any of the national institutions and this is very worthwhile. The Bill, of itself, will grant the power to make decisions. The council will take recommendations on the basis of the importance of archives and antiquities being sought or acquired.

All politicians and the public welcome the idea of the creation of a national loan. Excellent heritage centres have been developed throughout the country. The Minister and her officials from the Office of Public Works recently visited the Turlough House folk park and museum development. It is an example of co-operation between local authorities, State institutions and the National Archives. It shows what can be achieved in a rural area and it provides a suitable background in which to explore archives and aspects of our heritage, including important artefacts.

It is important that there is a broad spread of facilities as these will provide an opportunity to the public and especially young people to see what is available. It is part of the education process. The heritage remit should be broadened to give people every opportunity of access. Local authorities should also work with the Office of Public Works to try to secure the best benefit to their areas.

The Turlough House development is a substantial attraction for visitors to the west. It is proving to be a valuable investment. It is innovative and the work undertaken there does justice to the investment. Initially, I was not a keen supporter because in the context of the infrastructure of the area I considered it to be a major undertaking. However, Mayo County Council has co-operated with the Office of Public Works and the Department and as a result it has become a success.

There are many artefacts that need to be brought into public ownership. In this regard there is a need for people to play a greater role at county level. For example, three torcs belonging to past warriors are on display in the National Museum but I first saw them when they were in the possession of those who did not realise their significance. It is important to classify what is available in the countryside.

The fund will provide an opportunity to make purchases. In the past many manuscripts and artefacts were sold outside the country. Those involved in such activities should be encouraged to reach an agreement with the State to ensure that such artefacts do not go on public sale. Many fine buildings, especially in the west, have been diminished by this process and there is a need to reverse this. Senator Norris referred to the need to maintain these buildings to ensure they are kept in proper order.

I welcome the Bill. Sections 11 and 12 cover disclosure of certain interests by members of county councils and the prohibition of unauthorised disclosure of information. The Bill also allows people to make donations, which is an innovative provision. If animal lovers can give money to cats and dogs homes there is no reason art lovers should be prevented from making donations to securing and preserving artefacts. I hope those with an interest in this area will respond positively to this provision. It happens in other countries, many of which have huge resources of beautiful buildings. People are allowed to bequeath money to societies whose interest it is to protect the national heritage, artefacts and written works. I look forward to it happening in this country.

I thank all who took such an interest in this debate. A number of recurring themes have been raised and I hope to address them all. I thank Senator Manning for his contribution. The Senator put it well when he said the fund can in some respects be seen as an emergency response to developments that can arise overnight. In the past items of very significant value to the State have appeared on the market and it was very difficult to deal with that by raising the necessary funds through the usual procedure of liaising with the Minister for Finance. The acquisition fund will continue to be a very important part of the responsibility of the collecting institutions but the heritage fund goes further and will provide additional funding to purchase a significant item or items that are of national importance and are of a value greater than £250,000.

I agree with those Senators who emphasised the need for a further loans policy. It is recognised that the cultural institutions want to proceed with this. It is the way to proceed but for it to work it is necessary to ensure there are suitable venues located throughout the country in terms of security and environmental conditions. I am glad to report that we can boast of a network of museums and venues that meet these requirements.

The access fund of £36 million will try to create in some instances and improve in others the access to items of archaeological interest and will ensure that, for example, county museums have greater opportunities in this regard. There are already nine accredited or county museums outside Dublin and a tenth will be soon announced. These venues are of the highest quality and they will give people in local areas the opportunity to see collections and artefacts of local interest. Senator Ó Murchú and others pointed out the importance of viewing artefacts in their local context. The best way to do this is to ensure they are displayed in local venues and museums.

The CNCI will not be simply a reactive body. However, it will be playing an important role in ensuring that certain items that become available at short notice are not lost to the State. The members of the CNCI possess quite specific knowledge, skills and expertise. They are in a position to know, through their contacts, the likelihood of certain valuable items becoming available. An immediate reaction might, therefore, not be necessary but the CNCI will be in a position take a proactive approach.

A number of Members referred to local authorities and their input. I accept Senator Man ning's point about the fact that the CNCI is based in Dublin but there are historical reasons for this. Its members represent our national institutions and have gathered a great deal of knowledge and expertise. It is important that they share this with each other and people in general. Since its establishment in 1998, the CNCI has been tremendous assistance to the different directors because it has been able to pool the information and expertise at its disposal in respect of a range of issues. The CNCI will play an important role in advising the Minister of the day with regard to what is of particular importance when certain items come up for discussion or become available for sale.

Senator Manning raised a number of other issues, one of which relates to the importance of the National Archives. I agree with the points the Senator Manning made in respect of this matter. The archives might not necessarily be responsible for sparking public debate but they are of extreme importance and, since I became Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, I have recognised that fact. I am pleased to inform the Senator that it has been recognised that further staff are required within the archives and I have obtained approval from the Department of Finance to proceed with their recruitment. Everyone is aware that there is a need for a further building to be provided in order to house the archives. I have obtained permission from the Minister for Finance to proceed to see what can be done on a PPP basis to provide a new building. The latter must be of long-term use because we must not deal only with the immediate problems of that tremendous institution. I agree with Senator Manning that those responsible for the National Archives have behaved in a most professional manner at all times.

The National Archives are also responsible for promoting cultural tourism. As Senator Ó Murchú stated, we cannot promote Ireland as a destination which offers great weather. However, our culture and heritage are of such a fine standard that they are recognised throughout the world and people want to travel here to experience them.

Senator Manning also stated that he was concerned about the involvement of semi-State and private bodies because some of the archives could be lost due to their not been necessarily seen as a top priority by such bodies. I have been in contact with the National Archives Advisory Council, members of which have spoken to the chief executives of a number of these bodies to highlight the need to prioritise the archives. I hope we will soon have some good news to report on that matter. It is vital that meetings should take place with the chief executives of these bodies because it is important to lay down a marker with regard to the national importance of the archives and the fact that they are of interest to people and should be preserved and made available. The review of the Archives Act is ongoing and my Department is working with the National Archives in that regard. This is an area which requires review because, in terms of our heritage, matters tend to move quite quickly and we want to ensure that we keep pace with the changing situation in respect of the boards in question.

Most Senators referred to the possibility of dispersing artefacts to museums throughout the country and it was suggested that people should have the opportunity to see the Derrynaflan hoard in their own localities. As already stated, the people of Tipperary South Riding will be able to experience this exhibition at the county museum in autumn 2002. This is an important development. During the debate in the Dáil, Deputies expressed concern about the fact that the CNCI is quite centralised and is only concerned with Dublin. I believe in the philosophy of decentralisation and I want to ensure that people who live in rural areas will be given the opportunity to experience their heritage. I implemented the access fund of £36 million to ensure that suitable buildings and venues would be available in order to allow that philosophy to be put in place.

I understand why those who serve on local authorities believe they have an important role to play in terms of providing advice and preserving our heritage. The heritage plan I will be publishing in the near future will highlight the important role local authorities have to play. It is important that the heritage plans that will be drawn up by local authorities and the national heritage plan will be interlinked. When Senators have an opportunity to view what is proposed in the heritage plan, they will see how it is intended to link national and local policies on heritage. I agree that the only way to proceed is to ensure that these policies operate in tandem.

Senator O'Toole referred to the tax relief provided under section 1003 of the Taxes Consolidation Act, 1997, and he requested the provision of double tax relief. This tax relief has been of enormous benefit and the measure has been extremely successful. This is a matter primarily for the Minister for Finance but the Senator can rest assured that we will be making representations in respect of it. If action cannot be taken in the forthcoming budget, perhaps a decision on it can be taken in respect of future budgets.

Senator Norris referred to the question of location and stated that it is most important that people should be able to see their heritage in their own localities. The importance of place was also mentioned by Senator Dardis.

Senator Norris has raised the question of the Leslie archives with me on a number of occasions and informed me about the links between the Leslie family and my grandfather. I will contact the Senator in respect of the specific issues he raised about the Leslie archives and the house itself.

Senator Dardis inquired whether a sum of £10 million will be adequate. It is recognised that £10 million is a large amount of money and Senator Manning referred to it as a generous provision. I felt that £10 million would be adequate because if we provided an amount in excess of that we could well have distorted the market. People might have got the idea that, because it is State funding at issue, there is a bottomless well of money available. Evaluations are always carried out when acquiring objects for the State. However, such evaluations need not delay matters unnecessarily and they are, in fact, usually carried out quite quickly and in a professional manner. A sum of £10 million pounds is a generous and realistic amount.

Senator Dardis referred to the military museum and acknowledged that our industrial heritage is provided for in the Bill. Collins Barracks will play a very important role in our military heritage.

Senator Ormonde referred to the £250,000 lower limit and said that figure sent out the signal that we are dealing with very significant artefacts. Senator Hayes said he did not wish to see rivalry between institutions North and South. I can assure the Senator that I would not have a partitionist view on this matter. It is important that we share information on the issues which may come up for discussion. That would be the general outlook and ethos of the different institutions North and South. I do not think the question of looking at this matter on anything other than an island basis arises.

I thank Senator Chambers for his remarks. I was very pleased to attend the great celebrations during the opening of Turlough House. It will be a wonderful branch of the National Museum. The issue of folk-life was raised by a number of Senators during the debate. In this regard, we are talking about social history and it is most important that the social as well as the political history of a country is recorded. Folk-life is appropriately displayed in a very modern facility outside Dublin in the heart of Mayo. I congratulate all involved in that project. It was expensive – it cost £15 million – but I was happy to ensure the money was made available because it will be excellent value for money in every sense of the word.

I hope I have dealt with the issues raised. The point was made that the CNCI is a Dublin-based body. Five of the ten members of the CNCI – the Arts Council, the Heritage Council, the National Concert Hall, the Chester Beatty Library and the National Theatre Society – are not beneficiary institutions. The presence of the directors, chief executives and their institutions who have no corporate axe to grind achieves the balance that will be needed in any debate.

I thank Senators for their very positive remarks and support. I hope I have reflected on most, if not all, the issues raised this afternoon.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Barr
Roinn