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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 2001

Vol. 168 No. 23

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is Nos. 1 and 2, motions re Article 3 of the Fourth Protocol to the Treaty of Amsterdam, to be taken without debate; No. 3, Twenty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy) Bill, 2001 – Committee Stage; No. 5, Extradition (European Union Conventions) Bill, 2001 – Second Stage, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Senators may share time; Nos. 6 and 7, motions re adoption of the draft EU framework decisions on combating terrorism and the European arrest warrant which will each be debated for one hour with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed seven minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and on which Senators may share time; No. 22, motion No. 18 re school attendance, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and business, if not previously concluded, will resume thereafter. Business shall be interrupted between 1 p.m. and 2.15 p.m.

I am a little concerned that there is an overload of business today having spent a large part of the session often with only two or three hours business in the course of a day. It looks as if we will be going halfway through the night on the business being prescribed. Is it necessary to take Nos. 6 and 7 today, as they will only take one hour each and we could end up taking them at 2 a.m.? It is not a particularly good way to do business, a point I made to the Leader earlier in the week.

Approximately four weeks ago I mentioned to the Leader that the Dáil will shortly publish a major series of reforms to the way in which it does its business. The Leader informed me that he would establish a high powered committee to examine matters in this House. Has it been established? Who are its members? How often has it met? Will it make an interim report?

Yesterday there were expressions of condolence to the family of Detective Sergeant Eiffe who was killed last week. We were not associated with them at the time because I was not clear on the protocol. Protocol should be established in these situations regarding when, where and how. I pass on our condolences and wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy to the family of the late Detective Sergeant Eiffe.

I agree completely with the point made by Senator Manning. Business was completed yesterday at a time which could have been antici pated and we could have ensured that some of today's business would have been dealt with yesterday. We are overloaded with business today. I do not know why we cannot defer some of this business, try to plan our business according to a diary with starting times for issues and then come back to them. It is not acceptable that Members should have to deal with this amount of business in a day. The sheer amount of reading involved in keeping up with that amount of business makes it nearly impossible.

We have raised on a number of occasions recently the need for a debate on Northern Ireland. Some weeks ago we in this House welcomed the establishment of the new police service in Northern Ireland. We wished it well and spoke about the need to maintain trust and confidence in it. This morning's news about the murder-assassination of William Stobie, probably by the UDA, raises huge questions about the Pat Finucane issue. It is something that we have dealt with and referred to here on many occasions. I raise it on this occasion because I believe that we should request a member of Government to come in here and discuss this matter with us with a view to us demanding an independent inquiry. This is important, not to satisfy the needs of any particular side but to ensure that there is not a continued erosion of trust and confidence in the new police service. Measures should be taken immediately and we should move forward.

There is a nest of vipers within this whole Finucane affair. The truth has not emerged and there is a huge need for it to emerge before it becomes a political football. It is in the interests of all right thinking people that the facts are put before us, that people can reach their own conclusions and that those who are guilty of offences are brought to justice. This is no way to handle these affairs. This man goes into the dock, threatens to expose the police and a couple of weeks later he is murdered. It raises questions which must be answered. Thank you for your indulgence, a Chathaoirligh. This is a matter of huge concern and we do not need to feed into it. I do not want to be seen to be taking the side of anybody on this issue. I speak as a citizen who voted on the Good Friday Agreement and who is committed to making the police service work. All of us who feel strongly about it should be insisting on this matter. I ask the Government to make clear its position on it and to seek an independent inquiry on the Pat Finucane assassination.

On the first matter you raised, Senator O'Toole, there is a Standing Order which sets out how expressions of sympathy should be dealt with in the House. The matter was not dealt with yesterday in accordance with that Standing Order but when it was raised I felt that it would not be appropriate for me to interrupt the Senator.

I agree entirely with the previous two speakers in relation to today's Order of Business. The Leader is overwhelming us with business today. This is unnecessary considering we are sitting four days this week, and we sat four days last week. I would have preferred an opportunity of discussing item 1, which deals with third country nationals, the matter I raised on the Order of Business yesterday in terms of economic refugees. Yesterday all sides of the House expressed a desire to have a debate on the question of immigration.

The last three items on today's Order of Business, Nos. 5, 6 and 7, are part of an anti-terrorism package. They have to do with extradition, European arrest warrants and the Council framework decision on combating terrorism. In the context of all the discussions we have had and all that has happened since the terrible New York tragedy, which happened virtually three months ago, all this deserves to be debated on its own rather than be taken after what will be a very lengthy debate on No. 3, the Twenty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy) Bill. The Order of Business, as presented, is not acceptable.

Like Senator O'Toole, I call for a debate on Northern Ireland. What is happening there is extremely alarming. We dealt with the bigger picture in dealing with decommissioning and the institutions, but the smaller picture of what is happening within communities is being neglected. It is not just the assassination of William Stobie, but also the recent fatal shootings in south Armagh. There is a sense of isolation and frustration in different communities, particularly loyalist ones. The Minister for Foreign Affairs should come to the House in order that we can have a full debate. The Good Friday Agreement is up and running in the broad framework, but at micro level nothing is happening. This is one of the most serious matters facing us today.

I have raised the Pat Finucane case on several occasions and again ask the Leader to arrange a debate with the appropriate Minister. This morning's statement from the Finucane family was magnanimous in every sense. They do not want anyone killed or prosecuted in Pat Finucane's name.

Having listened to Ed Moloney on the radio this morning it is evident that unless clarification is given, the revelations, now coming to the fore, will be misrepresented, not help peace and, certainly, the development of harmony on this island. A debate on the matter in a positive and responsible manner would be well worthwhile.

I go from one extreme to the other because I am worried about problems in Cork. A commitment was given last year by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government that money would be allocated for the upgrading of Cork inner city. Sources on the Government side now tell us that the £5 million given for Patrick Street is being withdrawn. This is a £14 million project over an 18 month period. It is disturbing that the Minister states no money is forthcoming.

Cork inner city is rapidly deteriorating and it is sad that other places have had money committed to them, such as £300 million to O'Connell Street in Dublin. Are we again leaving inner cities and towns to deteriorate because of the Minister's lack of commitment? May we have an explanation of the reason the £5 million was withdrawn this year from the country's second city?

I, too, support the request for a debate on Northern Ireland. Senator Costello put his finger on one difficult point. It would be helpful if we could understand the disaffection in loyalist areas and the real danger that the people living there will lose faith in the democratic process. It is important that they are on side.

I also support Senator Ó Murchú's request for a focused debate on the necessity of holding an inquiry into the whole Finucane affair. I held this off for a long time in the hope someone would be brought to justice by the ordinary process, but that now appears impossible as a result of this morning's events. It is time to investigate the matter as it is something to which the Finucane family are entitled.

Having listened to Senator Hayes I support the call for a debate on Northern Ireland. Previously, when such a call was made, we sometimes said it was not the right time. I was in Belfast last Thursday and, clearly, there are trends that put at risk the great hopes we had so recently. Senators Hayes, who is so close to matters in the North, and Ó Murchú spoke of the need for a debate, which would be useful.

Shopkeepers are sometimes accused of reminding us of how few days there are left to Christmas, but the are 19 days to the euro changeover. The news yesterday that the EU Commission fined five German banks over €100 million for collusion in a cartel operation reminds us that with the coming of the euro not all steps such as the charges for inter-country cheques seem to be happening. This is not due to the EU but to collusion among the banks. The Central Bank and the Minister for Finance should ensure that Irish banks are aware of the steps that can be taken.

I support all those who asked for an early debate on Northern Ireland. The situation is very brittle at the moment in relation to the future of the Police Authority. We are full of hope and we are making real progress on certain fronts but, as Senator Costello said, at the level of community relationships and eradication of old sectarian practices we do not seem to be making much progress. It should be a subject for rational debate in this House in the hope that at this remove we can come up with some kind of wisdom that will enable the agenda to move forward.

I support the call made by Senator Cregan for the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to be invited to this House so that we can raise with him the issue of the promised funding for the refurbishment of Patrick Street. There was a clear understanding that funding would be forthcoming for that project. The planning is in place and now we find at the last minute that the money does not seem to be available. It is a very urgent issue and does merit an early debate.

I ask the Leader what the Government intends to do about the provision of accessible transport for the very many students with disabilities who are totally reliant on a service which has been starved of funds.

As one who has consistently raised the Pat Finucane case in this House, I welcome Senator O'Toole's call this morning for an independent public inquiry. I would like that to be extended to include the cases of Robert Hamill, Rosemary Nelson and my wife's cousin, Patrick Shanahan, who was murdered. There has always been grave suspicions in relation to involvement by the security forces in that murder. Now is also the time for release of information to the Relatives for Justice. I wonder why William Stobie was murdered today. I have grave suspicions that it is to divert attention from the ombudsman's report which will be released this morning.

It is clear from the serious and solemn things said from the other side that there is a great deal of misgiving about the situation in the North. It would be wise for us to have a debate at this juncture. The case against Mr. Stobie collapsed because of psychological pressure on a witness. That seems to be a very sinister development. One always listens with great respect to what Senator Maurice Hayes has to say because of his wide experience in this area. He mentions the possibility that the loyalists may lose faith in the democratic process, particularly with regard to the policing issue, and I agree with him.

There are Members of this Parliament who can do something about it. Thankfully they are not yet Members of this House but they are in the other House. I speak of members of Sinn Féin. How can anybody have confidence when Sinn Féin buses a collection of louts into Crossmaglen who attack the police station and leave at least one member of the re-named police force seriously ill with third-degree burns? What kind of Christmas will that man have? What kind of signal does it send out when a democratic party organises this kind of insurrection? It is simply intolerable and this House should include this incident in the debate on Northern Ireland.

I join my colleagues in calling for a debate on Northern Ireland. I support Senator Bonner's request for an inquiry into the Rosemary Nelson and Hamill cases. In deference to Senator Hayes I agree it is vital for the Unionist community to be kept on side in the matter. We must be seen to be even-handed. There are also serious questions to be answered on this side of the Border in relation to murders involving members of the Northern Ireland Judiciary and the RUC in transit across the Border. We would do a service to the entire process if these matters were investigated further.

Will the Leader indicate what is happening with the Education Disabilities Bill? There was a long discussion on a radio programme this morning about a Bill that I certainly have not seen and I believe has not been published. When will we see it? In relation to disability legislation in general, it is appalling to see that people have to protest at the gates of Leinster House in support of the vantastic scheme, which is totally under-funded. It is vital that we address the issues of mobility and access to transportation for people with a disability.

In ordering business for the House will the Leader affirm to the relevant Ministers how important it is for them to attend in dealing with their legislation? I have the greatest respect for Ministers who are good enough to come to the House and participate in our debates. However, it is very disconcerting for the Opposition to put time and effort into preparing to discuss legislation and then find the relevant Minister is not present. There is no continuity in the arguments presented, which are answered by a different Minister. This does not result in good legislation. To coin a phrase, it handicaps the whole system and leads me to believe that what I say will not be listened to.

I add my voice to those of other Senators who have asked for a debate on Northern Ireland. Given that we will be here next week, it could take place then.

I call on the Leader to ask the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands to come to the House in order that we can ask for an extension of operating licences to other radio stations, many of which have been closed down in recent weeks. One station is not sufficient to cover the demands of listeners in a region. We have had local radio for some time and it is extraordinary that we are limited to just one station in some regions. I hope the Minister will direct the Independent Radio and Television Commission to be more open to new licences being sought in order to encourage rural and regional broadcasting.

In reference to what Senator Keogh said, Ministers do not have a right, but an obligation to be present in the House. I agree that occasionally the relevant Ministers have not come and been replaced by others. However, during the last two Seanads, Ministers have attended on an exceptionally regular basis and done a very good job. There were also times when Ministers failed to attend and the House had to adjourn.

Senator Manning asked about progress on Dáil reform. I understand the matter will come before the Dáil in the next session. We are reviewing our own processes. I have consulted Senator Manning and will consult the other leaders in the near future.

Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello, Ó Murchú, Hayes, Quinn, Bonner, Norris, Glennon and Jackman called for a debate on Northern Ireland, particularly the tragic death this morning. I have no difficulty in arranging that before the Christmas recess. We will have statements on asylum seekers on Friday and on the tragedy which unfolded in Wexford.

Senators Denis Cregan and Quill called on the Minister for the Environment ad Local Government to invest money in Cork, particularly in Patrick Street. I will pass their views to the Minister. Two Ministers who can be relied on to deliver to Cork are the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Walsh, and the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin.

Senator Quinn sought clarification on the additional charges for euro cheques. I listened with great interest to a programme this morning which partly dealt with that issue. It seems that all future transactions in Europe, which financial institutions are encouraging, will be electronic. The banks will charge for cheques used between countries. I will pass Senator Quinn's views to the Minister.

Senators Coghlan and Keogh asked about the Disabilities Bill. I understand it will come before the House in the next session. Senator Keogh also asked about Ministers being present in the House. Ministers and Ministers of State have certain responsibilities in Departments. We have endeavoured to have Ministers present and we have been successful. If a Minister is not available to take Second Stage because another Bill for which he or she is responsible is in the other House, we endeavour to have him or her here on Committee and Remaining Stages. I accept the reason the request was made.

I will pass Senator Jackman's views on local radio to the Minister for Public Enterprise. The local radios which are not licensed are the obvious choice of the listener. We should have more local choice radios.

It is the responsibility of the Broadcasting Commission.

All three speakers on this side of the House asked about the overloading of today's Order of Business, which needs to be changed. Will the Leader consider taking two or three items on Friday?

I agreed with the Opposition yesterday to take only Committee Stage of No. 25 because, in its opinion, it was an overloaded agenda. I envisage the House sitting until midnight tonight and tomorrow night because it is close to Christmas.

Question put, "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Hayes, Maurice.

Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Donovan, Denis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Coghlan, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.

Keogh, Helen.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Toole, Joe.Quinn, Feargal.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Costello and Ryan.
Question declared carried.
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