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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 2002

Vol. 169 No. 8

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re Council Framework Decision on joint investigation teams, back from the Joint Committee on European Affairs, to be taken without debate; No. 2, motion re Council decision on the Schengen information systems, back from the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, to be taken without debate; No. 3, Ombudsman for Children Bill, 2002 – Committee and Remaining Stages; and No. 22, motion 19, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

Since it is unlikely that we will sit more than eight or nine more days before the general election, will the Leader give a realistic indication of the legislation he expects to bring before the House between now and the end of the session? This is a reasonable request. Does he expect any unpublished Bills to come before the House? Will the telecommunications Bill be published in time to be taken before the dissolution of the Dáil?

We all receive circulars in the post and I have discussed the media in the past, but many of us received a circular from The Sunday Times last weekend which reached a new low in offensiveness. It asked if any member of my family had had an abortion. I do not know, I do not want to know and it is none of my business. That would be the reaction of everyone here. Intrusion into anyone's private life in this way is intolerable. The fact that the information could then be used publicly, because we were asked to sign this document, to embarrass family members is deeply offensive. I want to put on record the fact that I have not answered the questionnaire. Anything I have to say on the subject is on the record. I want to note this circular and that those who sent it should be ashamed of themselves.

I agree with Senator Manning. I also received a copy and threw it into the bin. When I first looked at it, I saw only the survey and did not see the question. I found it appalling and could not believe that it came from a reputable Sunday newspaper. I thought it was a set-up.

A significant number of the Adjournment Debate matters today and others recently, including the Leader's matter last week, relate to education. Senator Costello, Senator Ormonde and I, among others, have raised the need for a debate on education. The Leader has consistently given commitments to arrange such a debate. This whole area, including school buildings, is a huge issue throughout the country. There should be a debate on that aspect and on the difficulties in education. The Minister should discuss the matter here and I ask the Leader to arrange such a debate.

An issue I raised before and which must be looked at now is the question of participation in democracy. We are facing a referendum and an election in the next couple of months. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to explain why he will not introduce on-line voting for people who cannot be physically present in their constituencies, such as students and people abroad on business. I also include emigrant voters. This affects my colleagues on the Independent benches as we are the only representatives of emigrant voters. People who live abroad could vote more easily and it should be introduced. Now that the Government has introduced electronic voting, the next step is on-line voting, which can be done in every radio and television station in the world. It would be in all our interests to increase the participation of young people in democracy. I ask the Cathaoirleach to support the introduction of on-line voting. It is safer than any other way of voting. We can change money and do all our business on the Internet. We should also be able to participate in democracy on-line.

I support Senator O'Toole's suggestion in relation to on-line voting. Has the Leader considered introducing electronic voting? It would be the first step towards technology in this House. It has already been introduced in the other House and perhaps we could graduate to on-line voting in the Seanad.

I agree with Senator Manning's point. All my colleagues received documentation from The Sunday Times which asked them intrusive questions regarding family and personal matters. It is regrettable that since Rupert Murdoch took up ownership, the standards at what was a reputable newspaper have sunk so low. I question the motives of other moguls who have taken up ownership of other newspapers where standards have also deteriorated.

Senator O'Toole requested a debate on education. A number of other issues also require debate, such as health, the environment and waste management. Given that we are approaching the end of the session, perhaps the Leader will prioritise these issues. There is also a need to hold a debate on justice. While there appears to have been a decline in the incidence of non-serious offences, serious crime has been increasing. In addition, there is a need to debate the level of fatalities on the roads and for resources to address this issue. The question of policing also requires debate, especially the need for a Garda board and ombudsman.

It is important we on this side of the House join with Senator Manning in expressing concern about the questionnaire issued by The Sunday Times. I was shocked when I received it. There was a commitment that it could be anonymous but irrespective of that, we were invited to give our name and party affiliation and to indicate how we would vote in the forthcoming referendum. However, the offensive aspect of the questionnaire was to ask questions about per sonal family matters, including whether the recipient or any family member had an abortion and, subsequent to the referendum, whether the recipient would report a family member who had one. That is outrageous.

We need to return to the debate on the question of a press council and on standards in journalism. If journalists in The Sunday Times were prepared to make the effort to research the records of the Houses, they would know how many Deputies and Senators were going to vote in the referendum. The questionnaire was totally unwarranted and intrusive and it must be condemned unreservedly.

I am ruling that the matter of The Sunday Times questionnaire has been adequately aired by the leaders of the various groups.

I ask the Leader to ensure that the damning report on the orthodontic service by the Joint Committee on Health and Children is debated in the House as soon as possible. We would be shirking our responsibility if, before the end of this session, we did not fully debate the report and address its recommendations.

I am aware that between now and the dissolution of the Seanad and Dáil, Members will be concentrating on national issues but if this House is to be relevant we must hold a full debate on foreign affairs. As a First World country we will be judged on what we are doing for poorer countries. A debate will show what we are attempting to achieve in conflict areas. For example, an attempt could be made to stop the conflict in the Middle East, where people are dying every day, if the western world decided to act. There is poverty in places like Mozambique, a war in Angola and crises in the Congo and Zimbabwe, where many Irish citizens are living. We must address the political elements that are necessary to change what is happening in the Third World and we should have a debate on this matter.

I will not address the matter of The Sunday Times but regarding a debate on such an issue, a Member mentioned the owner of the newspaper. I am not referring to The Sunday Times specifically but surely the journalists involved should receive as much blame as the editor. Those in the NUJ who allowed this to happen are just as much at fault as the owner or the editor.

I seek a debate on our concerns regarding countries which do not have the same financial resources as Ireland.

I will not support the Order of Business as it is not good procedure to take Committee and Remaining Stages of the Ombudsman for Children Bill. This bad parliamentary procedure was adopted last week on the Competition Bill. We took all Stages, but there was no Report Stage debate. This is not a good idea as we cannot table proper Report Stage amendments.

On a point of order, that was agreed by the House.

As I have been interrupted, I will comment on the interruption. It was agreed under protest and in very particular circumstances. I won an undertaking that this would not become a regular matter in the House. I will oppose the Order of Business on that basis because, having made the breach in that instance, we are now following it by making it a matter of routine.

The Senator's amendment was adopted.

Senator Norris, you have made your point.

I also seek a debate on the reporting of judgments, particularly Supreme Court judgments. If we cannot have a debate perhaps the Leader will communicate our concerns about this to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. My correspondence indicates that Supreme Court judgments are sometimes left for 30 years and one specific case, dated 4 March 1955, has only just been reported. These judgments are part of the democratic process and if they are not reported, it is very difficult to include them in legal pleadings. This was the case of Kavanagh v. The Leader

It is not in order to comment on the way the Supreme Court does its business. There is the separation of powers.

With the greatest respect, I am not commenting on it. I am commenting on the lack of reporting. The Supreme Court does an exceptionally fine job and citizens are entitled to know its decisions. They should not be locked up in a cupboard and left to rot.

The House should also express its grave concern that a member of the Government, a Cabinet Minister, will attend the meeting in University College, Cork, at which Henry Kissinger will speak.

That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.

I am asking the Leader a question. I am asking him to communicate our concern to the appropriate authorities or perhaps we could have an emergency debate on the fact that somebody who stands in danger of a warrant for war crimes should be welcomed to University College, Cork, and that members of the Government should be lickspittling a person of very doubtful—

Senator Norris, you have made your point.

I would welcome the opportunity to make it in much fuller form in a debate. I look forward to the supporting comments of my friend and colleague, Senator Ryan, who raised the issue last week.

I ask the Leader to consider a debate on State policies regarding the Irish language. Members will have noticed that in recent weeks further debate on this has been activated and I am particularly pleased by the balanced nature of this discussion as well as the goodwill that has been expressed. It seems the right atmosphere in which to discuss the national language. Many issues related to the Irish language need to be addressed aside from education, such as business.

What particularly impresses me is that we now have Foras na Gaeilge, a cross-Border body which involves both traditions. Following from the Good Friday Agreement and the establishment of Foras na Gaeilge it is right that the Seanad should give leadership in this debate. Tá súil agam go mbeidh sé sin ann chomh luath agus is féidir.

I accept the Cathaoirleach's ruling with regard to The Sunday Times article. I completely support the way in which it was dealt with by the leaders of the various groups. I wish to raise the issue first raised by Senator Costello regarding the adoption of electronic voting in this House. I must admit that I am in two minds about it. We have a tradition in the way we conduct our voting. We are smaller in numbers than the other House and we are more practical and can get it done in the old, traditional manner.

Deep vein thrombosis.

I also wish to raise the Government's U-turn on the Disability Bill. Is it intended that the Bill, as modified, will be brought before this House before it rises? If it is not brought in before the end of the session, and there are very few days left, it will not be dealt with until some time next year. It is only right and proper that a Bill that has been so long in the waiting should be given priority.

I would welcome the Minister for Education and Science to this House so that we can highlight the achievements of the Government in all aspects of education, at primary, post-primary and third level—

That is normally Senator Cassidy's job.

—and the huge investments made in the sector. We have not debated the North or been updated on the peace process, decommissioning, demilitarisation or how the institutions are working. The Minister for Foreign Affairs should come into the House before the end of the session to give us an update so that we can establish where we stand on the achievements of the Government on all aspects relating to the North.

Less that two weeks ago I raised the problems I could see happening in accident and emergency units, not just in this city but in other cities around the country. Industrial action in less than two weeks' time has been voted for by 95% of nurses in accident and emergency units. The Minister has set up a forum on the issue. I have not been aware of so many fora and committees in the Department of Health and Children, and some of them do not come to fruition before the Minister takes action, for example, the one on the deregulation of the pharmaceutical industry. Pharmacists feel they were not properly consulted as the committee had not come to a conclusion. There are two issues, one of which is that because we did not wait for a committee to report, a dispute has arisen between the Minister and pharmacists. A forum has been set up in the other case but it will not be in action before the industrial dispute in accident and emergency units is under way.

The Senator is making a speech. Has the Senator a question for the Leader of the House?

I have. Will the Minister come into the House to report on what these various fora are doing and what effect, if any, he feels they have on industrial dispute in the health service?

Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate on the effects of coastal erosion? A flood tide is due again tomorrow. Many people are deeply concerned about the last flood tide and the detrimental effect it had on homes and on the coast itself. While I welcome the money the Government has allocated to flood victims, it is very important to point out that no money is available in the national development plan to deal with coastal erosion. If we make a special change to the plan millions of euro could be made available to those coastal communities who will be devastated again by coastal erosion.

Mr. Ryan

I am gratified at the number of people who have spoken out since I raised the matter of alleged war criminals and the welcome they are being given.

And those who spoke out well before the Senator did.

Order please. Senator Ryan, without interruption.

Mr. Ryan

I support Senator Henry's request that the Minister for Health and Children come to the House to discuss the current crisis. The country should face the reality that 93% of nurses voted to withdraw their services from accident and emergency departments. Whatever bluster may emanate from various places, it is a statement of fact which must be addressed.

I seek a debate on volunteerism in Irish life and also on volunteerism and amateurism in sport since it appears that Fianna Fáil policy is for the GAA to become professional. That is what the Minister for Finance effectively said to the Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service yesterday.

The Senator must not pre-empt the debate he is seeking.

The Senator will be here for the debate on the Finance Bill.

Mr. Ryan

I am only explaining that when such a comment is addressed to the largest sporting organisation by a political party, which believes it owns that organisation, it is a fundamental question—

The Senator should tell that to Deputy Deenihan.

Senator Ryan should not pre-empt the debate he is seeking.

Mr. Ryan

I was only seeking to explain why it was so urgent and I have done so satisfactorily.

It was an off the ball incident, a Chathaoirligh.

Mr. Ryan

I will not mention the issue raised by Senator Manning and others on which the Cathaoirleach ruled that enough had been said, but I will comment on standards in the media, which are raised regularly in the House. I wish to say something positive about this morning's Irish Examiner, which contains a full page spread on Dr. Kissinger's visit to Cork, which is being hosted by that newspaper's owners among other people. The newspaper also carries a stinging attack on Dr. Kissinger and I wish that other owners would allow the same diversity of views within a newspaper, where the guests of the owner could be criticised by a columnist. There is one organisation where that would not happen.

Hear, hear.

I support the call by Senator O'Dowd for a debate on coastal erosion and climatic change. What plans does the Minister for the Environment and Local Government have to deal with climatic change, its effects on property and our future? He should come to the House to discuss this matter.

A few weeks ago I asked the Leader how the euro changeover was going and he stated then that it was excellent. I disagree because inflation is high. The relevant agency will not comment on this and no one appears willing to admit that it is running high. Anyone who does not recognise that the currency from ten cent downwards is not working must be living in another world.

Last weekend we saw figures that suggested that the number of deaths on the roads this year will be greater than last year. Steps to reduce these deaths are not being implemented. The answer is the penalty points system. I have often asked when the Road Traffic Bill will reach this House. I was worried when Senator Manning said that we have only eight or nine sitting days left. This Bill was due here months ago and we are told that the penalty points system, which is part of it, will not be operational for another two years. If we are to do something about the carnage on the roads, it is essential to pass this Bill.

I also support Senator Norris's comments about the tendency for the Committee and Final Stages of Bills to take place on the same day or immediately after each other. Senator Dardis explained the position regarding the Competition Bill. I asked on the Order of Business when the Final Stages of the Competition Bill would take place. It was sprung on us that they were to be taken there and then, with the House's agreement, because of the urgency of the matter. We should not develop this habit and the same procedure should not be suggested today.

Since the lifetime of this Seanad is now very short, we need to focus on the most important issues facing us as public representatives, and there is no more urgent issue than the state of our health services. As has been pointed out, we are facing a crisis in accident and emergency, not only in terms of overcrowding problems experienced by patients and nurses but also because of the action likely to be taken by nurses in the coming weeks. The public orthodontic service, as pointed out in a fine report published today by the health and children committee, is in tatters because of a failure to train more orthodontists—

The Senator is making a speech.

With respect, I am pointing out the issues relating to this important matter.

The Senator has supported that view adequately.

The care of the elderly in the community is also urgent in the context of the state of our health services. I ask the Leader to ensure that sufficient time is made available in the remaining lifetime of this Seanad to debate all the important issues coming under the aegis of the health services.

On the question of standards in the press and the issue of a press council, as a former journalist I published a proposal for the establishment of a voluntary press council which was supported by the National Union of Journalists and by the voluntary sector in particular which believes it is vitally important to have some access to an informal but well established council, but there was no response from media owners to that proposal. Unfortunately, as we have noted, the situation is getting worse rather than better.

Will the Leader allow time for a debate on the insurance industry because many Members have put forward valid reasons for having such a debate? Will the Leader ask the Minster for the Environment and Local Government to come into the House as a matter of urgency to discuss the question of the national primary routes. As the Cathaoirleach will know, the national primary route from Longford to Westport is down to one lane in Strokestown. That is a scandal, and I ask that something be done about it as a matter of urgency.

Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello and Dardis expressed strong views regarding the questionnaire sent to us by The Sunday Times. I agree with the Senators but if we are sincere in calling for the establishment of a press council, the proof of the pudding will be the number of political parties which will include it as part of their manifesto and programme for Government. I have been calling for a press council for the past 14 years and it is about time we had the power of our convictions and set it up.

On Senator Manning's other point, it is my estimate that we will sit for a total of at least 12 days before the general election.

Senator O'Toole inquired about a debate on education. I understand that an education Bill will come before the House in the next few weeks and Senators will be invited to make whatever comments they wish at that time. Because of the amount of legislation being initiated here, as well as the number of Bills coming from the Dáil that have to be completed before the general election, debates on other issues will be few and far between unless we devise some special formula to sit on Mondays.

Hear, hear.

That is no problem.

That is agreeable.

On Senator Manning's request, I hope to be in a position tomorrow morning to inform the House of the list of legislation to be taken before the general election but not before the end of this session. Some Senators have called—

On a point of order, is the Leader talking about the Dáil or the Seanad general election—

I am talking about the Dáil general election.

—because we are doing our calculations here.

I wish to point out to the leaders and other Members of the Seanad that the end of this session will not mark the end of sitting days in this Seanad before the general election.

With regard to the introduction of electronic voting in the Seanad, Senators will be aware that I invited them to respond to a questionnaire I sent them on Seanad reform. I want to start this process as a matter of urgency, given what our colleagues have proposed for conducting their business in the Dáil. Some Senators who urgently called for this have not responded to that invitation. They may wish to make an oral submission for consideration by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges when it comes to deal with this matter.

I will consider Senator O'Toole's request for on-line voting. I will discuss it further with him and perhaps we can take that matter up on another occasion.

Will the Leader support it?

Senators Costello and Coogan called for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House to discuss the up-to-date position on everything pertaining to his portfolio. I have no difficulty in setting aside time for that.

Senators Jackman and Ormonde called for a discussion on the report Senator Jackman highlighted to the House. I have no difficulty with that, if time permits. Perhaps Fine Gael will afford Senator Jackman time to do this and we will agree to extend Private Members' time to discuss the matter.

We might have to do that.

Senators Lanigan and Ormonde called for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come into the House to have a debate on foreign affairs. I cannot envisage that time will be available for such a debate before the Easter recess, but I will permit time for such a debate before the general election.

I will pass Senator Norris's views on judgments to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Senator Ó Murchú called for a debate on the State's policy on the Irish language. I will allow time for such a debate and endeavour to ensure it will take place in Fianna Fáil time during Private Members' Business, as otherwise time would not be available for such a debate.

Senator Coogan raised the Disability Bill. As I said, I will inform the House in the morning on the progress of all Bills to come before the House before the general election.

Senators Henry and Ryan called for the Minister for Health and Children to come into the House to debate various issues that pertain to his portfolio. I will ask the Minister if this is possible and will endeavour to ensure such a debate takes place.

Senators O'Dowd and Chambers called for an urgent debate on coastal erosion. I welcome the £5 million awarded to those unfortunate victims of flood damage which will be administered by the Red Cross. My heart is in the right place on the matter of coastal erosion. During the 1980s we witnessed the dreadful damage resulting from coastal erosion, particularly in the coastal areas of Leinster, as pointed out by Senator O'Dowd. Debate on the Finance Bill will commence in the House on 23 March, which may be an opportune time to raise this matter with the Minister for Finance.

Senator Ryan called for a debate with the Minister for Finance on the provision of funds for sports people. From the comments the Senator made and his experience of having Fianna Fáil blood in his veins—

It has thinned out a little.

—I certainly understand where he is coming from in that regard.

On a point of order, 23 March, when debate on the Finance Bill is due to begin here, is a Saturday. Is that the correct date?

It is to commence on the Wednesday after St. Patrick's Day, 20 March.

That is all right.

Senator Dino Cregan called for a debate on the merits or demerits of the changeover from the pound to the euro. He can discuss this matter during the debate on the Finance Bill. I congratulate everyone associated with the changeover which was professionally carried out. I take the Senator's point. He has enormous experience in this field and I will take on board these matters.

Senator Quinn inquired about the Road Traffic Bill and called for a debate on the high number of deaths on our roads. Given the increase in population and that 700,000 more people are at work compared to 13 or 14 years ago, it is probably the downside of the Celtic tiger. I will make inquiries about the Bill and I hope to be in a position to inform the House about it in the morning.

Senator Burke called for a debate on the Insurance Bill. I understand there is some difficulty in that regard, but I am endeavouring to ensure the debate takes place and I have no difficulty making time available for it. He also called on the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to make a statement on the difficulties being experienced by people travelling through Strokestown on the national primary route. This is a well-known part of the west and I will raise it as a matter of urgency with the Minister.

Senator Quinn inquired about the way in which business was conducted in the House last week. I understand the Tánaiste agreed to many amendments and that business continued with the agreement of the House.

Question, "That the Order of Business be agreed to", put and declared carried.
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