Education System: Motion.

Mr. Costello

I move:

That Seanad Éireann condemns the present Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrats coalition Government for its failure to address the needs of the Irish education system and for leaving a fine educational system in crisis after 5 years of neglect and mismanagement;

– further condemns the Government for undermining the professional status of teachers;

– further condemns the Government for its failure to fund capital building and refurbishment projects, and its failure to maintain health and safety standards in schools and educational institutions;

– further condemns the Government for its failure to resource schools, staff and students in disadvantaged areas; and

– finally, condemns the Department of Education and Science for its failure to work with local communities to improve the learning and living environment of children and young people.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and I commend the work he has done in relation to adult education. However, I do not commend the work of the Minister for Education and Science. He has mismanaged and neglected critical areas of the education system and I have sought to encapsulate these areas of mismanagement in the motion I tabled.

The education system is in considerable crisis. Every day we read adverse comment and criticism in the newspapers. Demoralisation is a key characteristic of the system at present and this is a dangerous development. In 1991 an OECD report on Irish education described the teacher's role as "instructional, custodial, inspirational and disciplinary". That is a tough list of functions which teachers are obliged to fulfil. The report states:

Teachers also have a role in dealing with the physical, moral and spiritual development of their pupils as well as playing an active role in their emotional and mental health and their general social welfare. And, of course, society, parents and pupils expect teachers to be involved in extra-curricular work of one kind or another. All in all, society expects very complex interactions from teachers.

The report showed that the Irish education system performed a wide variety of functions which were strictly educational, disciplinary, instructional and moral. It dealt with the mental, emotional and physical welfare of the whole person. This was society's expectation of the system and teachers delivered on that expectation.

I am disappointed that recent developments show no acknowledgement of that complex role. One would have expected the Minister to provide tea and sympathy for teachers and due recognition for the multitude of tasks they perform in our fine educational system, which is being trumpeted by the Government throughout the world as one of the reasons for the success of the Celtic tiger. Instead, the Minister has chosen to have a stand-off, as though he were at the OK Corral, and has not engaged with the teaching profession.

Education depends on engagement and on commitment by teachers. One would expect the Minister to aid and support this engagement in every way possible, but he has not done so. He has done the opposite. He has constantly been at odds with the teachers and has seen benchmarking as a stick with which to beat them. The ultimate insult to teachers was the suggestion that benchmarking is a pay-as-you-teach system which, like an ATM, will pay teachers on the basis of performance. The Minister appears to have gone along with that idea. However, benchmarking has delivered nothing to teachers and it will not deliver anything until after June, when the benchmarking process will take place.

The Minister has gone further. He mishandled the situation very badly when he used confidential information to reduce teachers' salaries and was found to have been in breach of data protection legislation. In doing that he soured relations with the teachers just before they were about to have their case heard by the Labour Relations Commission. As a result, the LRC hearing was totally non-productive. The Minister has now compounded the matter by providing greater remuneration to unqualified people who are supervising in schools than he is prepared to provide for part-time teachers who have professional qualifications. Surely this is another anomaly.

The Minister must know that the whole school community needs to be harmonised and that teachers are the people to do this. Teachers have traditionally fulfilled this role and the 1991 OECD report confirmed that this was happening in Irish schools. The Minister should act on the McGuinness report, which indicated an immediate need for 1,200 new teachers, and aim for the 15:1 pupil-teacher ratio which was operational until the early 1970s. If the Minister had acted on the recommendations of the McGuinness report, he would have softened the barriers he has created.

The Minister has received 850 applications for funding for major capital projects, all costing more than €250,000. The Minister has €1 billion worth of work on his desk. Some time ago he promised to publish the list of applications in the order of their priority but he has failed to do so, despite many calls for him to do it. Schools do not know when they might expect to hear whether their applications are successful. It now appears that the Minister will use this money as a slush fund and will announce major projects here and there prior to the general election. This is not good enough. Schools, parents and pupils need to know when a building or refurbishment project will proceed, but applications appear to have fallen into a black hole in the Department of Education and Science. Nobody knows except the Minister. He is doing it so there will be a huge rash of announcements, to suit him, between now and the general election.

Mention should be made of schools in disadvantaged areas. I can give the House one example from my constituency, which is also the Taoiseach's constituency – St. Joseph's primary school in East Wall. It just failed to be included in the Breaking the Cycle programme in the year it was announced by Niamh Bhreathnach. It was also not included in the programme, Giving Children a Fair Break, under the then Minister, Deputy Martin. As a result, the school is turning away pupils it had promised to take at Christmas because the classes are too large. The pupil-teacher ratio is out of kilter with local schools in the area and, naturally, parents are voting with their feet and going elsewhere. A community, therefore, is being damaged by the failure to provide an adequate educational resource in a disadvantaged area. That is no way to deal with education in this context.

My final point relates to local communities. The Department of Education and Science has failed to grasp that it needs to engage with local communities when they are attempting to improve the learning and living environment of pupils in disadvantaged areas. The Department has not sent any representatives to drugs task forces, partnerships or other such local bodies which have been established to promote local communities. This is a serious failure to delegate people with responsibility to deal with these areas.

We find ourselves in a sorry state after five years of unprecedented wealth and prosperity. The teaching profession is demoralised, schools building projects are not being dealt with in a coherent fashion other than at the whim of the Minister, pupils, parents and staff in disadvantaged areas are dissatisfied with the service being provided by the Department and there is a complete lack of engagement with local communities.

Mr. Ryan

I second the motion. I want to draw a picture of what this country could have had. It could have had a situation where primary school parents' committees did not have to spend frenetic amounts of time raising money to provide what people would regard as the essentials for education, where every school had clean, functional toilets of a number appropriate to health and safety and where school buildings were provided that were not health and fire risks.

We could have had a situation where teachers and support services were available in the necessary numbers and not as token gestures for a good political headline or in pilot schemes. We could have had teachers who felt valued as they do in other countries and simple things, such as a decision five years ago that a programme would begin to eliminate primary school buildings that were an insult to the teachers who worked in them, the children being educated in them and the parents who sent their children to them. The problem, however, is that the way to do that is to be honest. It means identifying the schools, declaring that they are below standard and promising to provide the money to deal with them. It means saying that every school has a right to be of a certain standard.

The problem with rights is that it ends the supplication. People who have rights do not believe they have to genuflect before the local Fianna Fáil Deputy or Minister and beg them to provide a school. The problem with rights is that parents do not feel they must defer to the local Fianna Fáil henchman and ask him to talk to the Minister about their school. There is no longer this god on high, who is the Fianna Fáil Minister and who dispenses munificence provided one behaves oneself or one asks in an appropriately supplicatory fashion. That is the fundamental problem. The second problem is the conservative ideology of this Government, but I will come to that later.

The first problem is the fact that we cannot secure the basic principle of a right to a basic standard. It is not difficult. The Higher Education Authority, for example, has a standard which must be met in buildings. If a new building is due to be built, that standard must be met. The Government could have been doing that for primary education over the last five years. It had the money but it decided not to do it. Now it has decided to hold off on all such work until the election is closer. We are back again to the supplication and to giving the impression that the funding will come from the Minister's back pocket. Why is that? It is because the ethos which dominates the Department of Education and Science, through this Government, does not believe in rights. It believes in supplication. That suits it better because it gives the impression of munificence on a grand scale whereas it should be giving people their rights.

That is a political and, perhaps, sociological point. However, its fundamental effect is to chip away at the single thing which, more than anything else, has been a contributor to our prosperity. In hard times in the 1980s, particularly the period between 1983 and 1987, a Government that was under enormous financial pressure decided that education was worthwhile. Education was thus protected from the dreadfully hard times of the 1980s. That happened at enormous cost and was barely achieved. The Government continued providing, for example, the possibility of third level education for a significant proportion of our population. Extremely dedicated teachers, essentially operating on shoestring budgets and with virtually no equipment, kept a good education system alive in hard times.

We then experienced the beginning of a turn around. A responsible Government from 1992 to 1997 had to ensure that the public finances were in good shape, so only limited work could be done. Then there were five glorious years when the Exchequer had more funds than it could spend. However, there was a Government, and a Minister for Finance in particular, who did not believe that public expenditure was a good thing. They looked for every possible way of avoiding having money available to do the type of things we are discussing now.

We do not dispute that many things were done. It would have been impossible, given the unthinkable prosperity of the last five years and the unimaginable surpluses, that many things would not have been done. Given the political clout of the trade union movement and teachers' unions, it would have been impossible not to do things. However, the standard by which this Government should be judged on this issue is not some type of tabula rasa in which nothing could have been done but against the possibilities of what could have been done. The possibility was that we could have had a European standard of education in our schools and colleges by now. However, it would have required decisions which this Government refused to make about building, equipment, teacher numbers, support staff and so forth. In each case, it ducked and would not give rights.

I will outline the extraordinary things this Government did. It is extraordinary that the Minister for Education and Science broke the law on data protection. It was waved away as if it did not matter. There is hardly anything worse in society than Government Ministers ignoring the law. It was obvious to everybody but the Minister for Education and Science that abusing secret, private data to deduct salaries from teachers was a gross breach of the law. I knew it and everybody I know knew it, but the Minister apparently did not.

One of the many aspects of the Government's performance that has fascinated me is the five building projects awaiting approval in the institution where I work, Cork Institute of Technology. One project was approved by the former Minister for Education, Niamh Bhreathnach, in 1997 while four were approved by the Minister, Deputy Martin, in the first year and a half of the Government. Not one has gone to tender yet. What Department allows a large institute of technology to expand its student numbers on the presumption that new buildings will be constructed and then sits on its hands for five years and does nothing? Do not give me the details about what was done, which was the best that could be extracted out of a Government that was hostile to the principle of public expenditure. A Government that could see that public expenditure is central to a good education system is needed. This Government believes in privatising everything and would prefer to privatise the education system, but instead it gave the system a reluctant nod in terms of limited funds and left us with problems that will take at least another Government to rectify.

Ms Ormonde

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and insert the following:

"notes with approval the 70% increase in investment in education which this Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government has provided; the greatly improved pupil-teacher ratio through the appointment of 3,500 extra teachers; the unprecedented increase in supports and funding for children with a disability including a ten fold increase in special needs assistants; the targeting of substantial extra resources and supports for students in disadvantage; the dramatic increase in capitation and funding for primary and second level schools; the commitment to enhancing the status of the teaching profession through extensive in-service professional development and the establishment of a statutory Teaching Council; the major increase in the investment in upgrading, modernising and providing new schools and other educational facilities as shown by the four fold increase in capital funding; and the provision of a high quality, accessible and inclusive education service across all levels and looks forward to the continuation of these positive developments over the coming years."

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Mr. O'Dea)

I welcome the debate as it gives me an opportunity to put on record the major achievements the Government has brought about since its term of office commenced.

Education has been a key foundation in the unparalleled economic and social progress we have witnessed in recent years. It has contributed greatly to meeting the skills needs of a dynamic new economy, to providing high quality sustainable employment for our young people and, crucially, to placing Ireland at the forefront of the global information society. In the area of social policy, our educational policies play a key role in combating disadvantage, reducing inequities and enhancing the quality of life for all our citizens. There is no doubt we have reaped enormous dividends from the substantial investment which successive Administrations have prudently made in education over the years.

We remember the hard times of the 1980s when we were faced with high unemployment, emigration of many of our talented young people, cutbacks in public services and rising national debt. While no one could have foreseen the extraordinary transformation that was to take place in social and economic life, we did at least have the foresight then to maintain education high on the priority list in so far as public policy and resource allocation were concerned.

The Government has continued the tradition of placing education and training at the top of the agenda as a policy priority. Since coming into office in 1997, State funding for education has increased by more than 70%, with a total allocation for 2001 alone of €4.7 billion. There will be a further 14% increase in funding for education in 2002, with a total budget of €5.4 billion approved by the Government for this year.

I would like to turn to the question of school funding and resources. Contrary to what the Opposition appears to believe, the Government has introduced major improvements in the funding and resourcing of schools since coming to office. At primary level, we have progressively increased capitation grants by some 80% in the period since 1997 to €102 per pupil for the school year 2001-02. This means that a school with 500 pupils will receive €50,790 in capitation grants in the current year compared to €28,570 in 1997-98. Following the transfer of community employment moneys from FÁS, grant assistance for secretarial and caretaker services at primary level is being doubled during the current school year from €51 to €102 per pupil. As a result, the minimum grant to be paid to schools with 500 pupils or more will increase from €25,395 to €50,790 per annum.

In addition, the Government has introduced a grant scheme for minor works. Approximately 1,000 grant approvals costing in the region of €33 million were given to primary schools in 2001 in respect of minor projects and purchases of furniture. An annual capital grant of €3,809 per school plus €12.70 per pupil is also paid to all primary schools at a total cost in excess of €17.7 million. The expenditure of this money is totally at the discretion of the school management authorities. At post-primary level, there has been an increase in the per capita grant from €225 in the school year 1997-98 to €257 for the school year 2001-02. Thus, a school with 500 pupils will receive €128,244 in the current year, an increase of almost €16,000 on 1997-98.

In addition, under the support services fund, second level schools will also receive an increase in their support grant from €25 per pupil to €99 per pupil over this school year and the next. There will also be a corresponding increase in the annual minimum grant for smaller schools from €5,079 to €19,808. This funding will provide further support to the school development planning process. While provision for secretarial and caretaker services is a particular focus of this fund, schools will have discretion in line with that available in regard to per capita grants as to how this additional funding is best utilised in the interest of their pupils.

As a country, we have always placed a high value on the quality of teaching in our schools and there is no doubting the great commitment, dedication and professionalism of our teachers. The Government has taken decisive action to reduce class sizes and ensure a supply of qualified teachers. Since we took office, we have dramatically improved the number of teachers at both primary and post-primary levels. To date we have appointed more than 3,000 extra teachers and this will shortly increase to more than 4,000. At primary level, an extra 1,855 teachers have been provided and this will be increased by a further 550 with the full implementation of the PPF. At post-primary level, an extra 1,225 teachers have been provided and this number will be increased by a further 400 under the PPF.

We have also substantially increased the number of teacher training places to facilitate the supply of qualified teachers going forward. We have made a special effort to provide additional teaching resources to schools with a significant proportion of children from disadvantaged backgrounds. For example, under a major new initiative introduced at primary level, Giving Children an Even Break, we will allocate more than 200 new teaching posts to enable them to provide extra support for children who are at risk of educational disadvantage and early school leaving.

The creation of additional teaching posts, together with a decline in enrolments, has resulted in a significant reduction in the overall pupil-teacher ratio in our schools in recent years and this will continue to fall over the coming years. At primary level, the average pupil-teacher ratio is less than 20:1. At post-primary level, the average pupil-teacher ratio, taking account of part-time posts, now stands at about 15:1. We are also providing additional career guidance posts to post-primary schools, with particular focus on addressing the needs of at risk pupils and potential early school leavers. Some schools are experiencing difficulties in obtaining fully qualified teachers to fill vacancies for substitute and temporary posts and my Department is taking every measure to deal with any shortages that arise. The action we have taken on teacher supply is making a real difference. There is more to be done and we will not be found wanting in this regard.

Teachers have a crucial professional role in educating our children and the Government acknowledges the immense contribution teachers, at all levels, have made, and continue to make, to the education system in Ireland. We have negotiated with teachers in accordance with the procedure that we have agreed with the teacher unions and we fully support the view that teachers have contributed hugely to education. We have used the arbitration process of the conciliation and arbitration scheme and also gone to the Labour Court in an attempt to resolve the ASTI dispute. It is of utmost importance that we look towards building for the future. The PPF has already delivered a cumulative increase of 16.9% to all teachers with another 4% to follow and a 1% lump sum payable from 1 April. The benchmarking process, in which the INTO and the TUI are participating, is well advanced.

On the issue of supervision and substitution, we consider that teachers are the best people to carry out that work. We have made a fair and generous offer of €34 per hour, on top of normal pay, for these duties. This compares favourably to the highest overtime rates payable in the public service. The offer would provide €50 million extra each year on top of the PPF. It was only when teachers refused to carry out this work that we had to take other steps to ensure that schools stayed open. The Minister reiterated that the processes were there to resolve this matter on 28 February. The Government is seeking ways in which we can move forward together rather than face further disruption of our education system. I am convinced that we can build a partnership approach to solving our problems and that we can again devote our collective energies and attention to what we do best – the provision of quality education to all our young people to equip them for tomorrow's world.

The teaching profession in Ireland has traditionally attracted personnel of a consistently high calibre and we all have an interest in seeing this continue in the future. In recent years, the Department has provided extensive programmes of professional development for teachers. The Government recognises the importance of enhancing the status of teaching in order to ensure that consistently high calibre personnel continue to be attracted to the profession.

The Teaching Council Act, enacted last year, recognises the professional status of teaching and provides for the establishment of a professional body charged with maintaining and developing standards and promoting best practice in the teaching profession. This is an important development for education in Ireland. It means that, in the future, responsibility for the qualifications for new entrants, the accreditation of teacher training courses, the promotion of further in-career development for teachers and addressing disciplinary problems within the profession will now largely lie with the teaching profession itself, working through the Teaching Council.

The Teaching Council will be central to the development of the teaching profession and will provide for the future quality assurance of the profession. Planning for the implementation of the Act is currently under way in my Department.

The rapid pace of technological change and the advent of the information age have brought many new challenges to education in recent years. Now more than ever it is vital that students are provided with the opportunity to develop computer skills. Under the schools IT2000 initiative, the Government invested more than €50 million in providing ICT facilities for schools with a view to ensuring that pupils in every school have the opportunity to achieve computer and Internet skills and to equip themselves for participation in the information society.

As a result there are now more than 56,000 computers in first and second level schools. The pupil to computer ratios have been substantially improved. Every school now has a connection to the Internet. Over 34,000 teachers have received training ranging from basic ICT skills through more specialised use of technology. This is testament to the progress we have made in this area.

A recent study by the EU Commission shows that Ireland compares favourably to the EU average across a range of benchmarks including pupil to computer ratio, basic Internet access for schools and pupils, proportion of teachers receiving ICT training and teacher use of computers and the Internet with pupils. To build further on the foundations we have laid, the Government is making a further and unprecedented investment of €108 million to enhance significantly ICTs in all first and second level schools.

In relation to school building and refurbishment, a major investment programme is currently under way to upgrade primary and post-primary school buildings with some €1 billion allocated under the national development plan for this purpose. As a result of past under investment over the course of decades, the reality is that some schools are in a poor state of repair and require substantial funding for upgrading to meet modern requirements.

Contrary to what we have heard, it is not possible to wipe out in the lifetime of one Government the cumulative deficit of generations and also to deal with emerging needs at the same time. However, it is only in the lifetime of this Government that there has been an increase in the level of investment, which is capable of making a real difference.

The facts clearly demonstrate our sustained commitment to rectifying the deficit and to providing for new building needs. The previous Government when leaving office planned to spend €91.6 million on educational infrastructure. By contrast, every single year since this Government took office we have poured massive sums of money into modernising educational infrastructure.

In 1998, we spent €133 million, an increase of 45% relative to 1997. The following year we again increased spending, to €194 million. In 2000, spending at first and second level was again increased, this time to €258 million. Last year, we increased spending yet again, to €318 million. In the current year, we propose spending €337 million, that is almost four times more than that allocated by the Opposition on leaving Government just five years ago. In effect, from 1998 to the end of the current year, we will have spent more than €1.2 billion on educational infrastructure.

In addition to our programme of development we have already taken the initiative in introducing public private partnerships to supplement our unprecedented schools building programme. These groundbreaking PPP projects will provide a state of the art quality design and management framework, which will serve as a model for further greenfield projects in the education sector.

The education landscape does not stand still. The building programme must change and adapt to meet emerging curricular and other needs. Over the past five years, we have extended and dramatically improved the specifications for school buildings and ancillary accommodation to meet lower pupil to teacher ratios, the needs of children with disabilities, new and refurbished science laboratories and PE halls, new ICT equipment and the expanded choice of subjects. Ensuring schools meet the latest safety and technical standards is also essential. The removal of asbestos and the reduction of radon gas levels has also been a priority.

We all know that education plays a key role in the promotion of a more inclusive society and tackling educational disadvantage has been a major priority of this Government's education policy. Under the national development plan, the Government is providing over €500 million to fund a range of programmes aimed at ensuring that young people from disadvantaged backgrounds are given every opportunity to reach their full potential.

Some of the existing measures include the following: early education interventions at pre-school level, such as the Early Start programme; a targeted support package for disadvantaged children in primary school, which is costing €33 million over the next three years; expansion of the early school leavers and stay in school initiatives and the establishment of a new statutory authority, the National Educational Welfare Board, to promote regular school attendance and prevent early school leaving; significant extension of the home school community liaison service; improvements in support grants for third level students and provision of a third level access fund of €120 million aimed at tackling under representation by students from disadvantaged backgrounds; extension of youth reach and youth work programmes; programmes to combat substance abuse; and a range of measures to improve literacy and numeracy attainment in school and out of school.

The establishment of the Educational Welfare Board is an important development, which also deserves special mention. For the first time ever, we will now have a single national authority with a wide-ranging remit to monitor school attendance, to assist children at risk and those who experience difficulties in or out of school and to provide a range of supports to reduce absenteeism and early school leaving. Planning for the phased rollout of the new educational welfare service is well advanced and the new service will be operational for the next school year.

Despite these advances, tackling poverty and social exclusion remains one of the major challenges facing Irish society. The Government is committed to building on what has been achieved to date in this area and has recently launched a new anti-poverty strategy. Recognising the cross-cutting nature of poverty and exclusion, the Government has set a number of important targets in the areas of education, health and housing policy. In relation to education, the objective is to ensure that all young people leave the system with an adequate education and related qualifications to support their full participation in the economy, in employment and in society.

We have also made important advances in the area of lifelong learning. It is clear that learning commences at a very early stage. In fact, research has clearly shown that high quality early education eases the transition to formal schooling and greatly improves the life chances of young people. The Government aims to secure lasting benefits for children during their early years and to place a particular focus on those children who, through disadvantage or disability, face various obstacles in deriving due benefit from education. We have recently established a new Centre for Early Childhood Education. The key aims of the centre will be to develop a quality framework covering all aspects of early education and introduce targeted supports for disadvantaged children up to six years of age and children with special needs.

At the other end of the educational spectrum, the Government has made much progress in relation to adult education. The White Paper on Adult Education sets out a range of recommendations to promote and expand access to adult education in the context of providing a continuum of educational opportunities on a lifelong basis. The recommendations in the White Paper are being implemented on a phased basis with a number of initiatives already under way. These include the significant expansion of the back to education initiative; the continued development of the national adult literacy strategy; the provision of the first ever adult educational guidance service; the establishment of a National Adult Learning Council; and the establishment of a network of community education facilitators.

The area of special education has attracted a great deal of attention in recent years. The Government has been accused of being hard-hearted and uncaring in its response to the educational needs of children with disabilities. However, the reverse is the truth. This Government has made more progress than any previous Administration in the development of special education services and has committed unprecedented levels of resources to the area.

When this Government came into office, children with disabilities had no automatic entitlement to special education services. Such services were only provided if and when resources were available. All this changed in October 1998 when the Government decided that all children in the primary system should have an automatic entitlement to a response to their needs. The major impact of this decision is reflected in the fact that the number of resource teachers supporting children with special needs has grown from 104 to over 1,000, while the number of special needs assistants supporting special needs children has grown from less than 300 to approximately 2,500.

When this Government took office, the State did not even recognise the distinct educational needs of children with autism. Such children are now being catered for in special dedicated classes, each of which caters for a maximum of six children and has a teacher and two special needs assistants. The Minister has also announced proposals for the introduction of a nationwide pre-school service for children with autism and funding is being made available to support this development. In addition, the Government has approved a further package of measures to enhance the provision of special education. These developments are not the action of an uncaring Government. They are concrete manifestations of the Government's commitment to people with special needs.

The Government is acutely aware of the need to enhance and co-ordinate educational support services at local level. We are making major advances in this area and a number of important services are being rolled out on a regionalised basis, including the National Educational Psychological Service and the Educational Welfare Service. In addition, a major restructuring programme is currently under way within the Department with a view to devolving the administration of key support services to regional level so that support services at local level are enhanced and co-ordinated through a planned network of regional offices.

I am proud to be able to come into this House and stand over the record of the Government in education. During our term investment in education has increased by more than 70%. We have appointed 3,500 extra teachers and greatly improved pupil-teacher ratios. There has been a fourfold funding increase for upgrading and modernising our schools and more than €500 million has been made available to provide substantial extra resources and supports for students in disadvantage. We have provided an unprecedented increase in supports and funding for children with a disability, including a tenfold increase in special needs assistants. There has been a dramatic increase in capitation and funding for primary and second level schools. We have taken real steps to enhance the status of the teaching profession and we have made major advancements in providing computers and Internet access to both primary and post-primary schools. We have also undertaken a major legislative programme to underpin and promote quality, accessible and inclusive education. We are pushing out the boundaries of lifelong learning with major new initiatives in adult and further education and early childhood education.

Looking ahead, there is still much work to be done and we must continue to give priority to tackling literacy, special needs and disadvantage, to meeting the challenges of lifelong learning and to promoting quality in education at all levels. However, the achievements over the past five years provide an excellent foundation for further progress and I look forward to a new Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrats Administration carrying on this important work.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I thought the Minister of State preferred a single party Government.

Mr. O'Dea

Unless we get an overall majority.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I compliment the Minister of State on his wonderful ability to present figures and statistics in a positive way for the Government. However, the reality is different. I was taken by his comment that these developments "are not the action of an uncaring Government. They are concrete manifestations of the Government's commitment to people with special needs." That is untrue. The Government has been brought roaring and shouting through the courts to recognise and give special attention to people with special needs and difficulties in education. We have had repeated cases over the past five years of the Minister for Education and Science being brought to the courts and forced to give children their constitutional rights under the educational system. It is a misrepresentation of the reality over the past five years to claim this is a caring Government in terms of children with special needs.

I was also impressed by the Minister of State's statement that it has been the Government's priority to ensure schools meet the latest safety and technical standards. He also said that the removal of asbestos and the reduction of radon gas levels has been a priority. The Minister recently announced funding for a major new programme to provide specialised dust extraction drums in special schools. However, the Government and the Minister did that because the parents' associations and teachers in the respective schools raised the issue and there was a public outcry. As a result, the Department was forced into taking action and providing in some cases new schools where there were high levels of asbestos and radon gas. It did not have a choice, in the interests of health and safety. The Government was not fully committed to it or concerned about it. It was forced to do it by the actions of the parents and teachers.

The Government should not paint a rosy picture. The Department was forced over the past five years into various actions. It did not have the decency to take the initiative. Its hand was forced and it reacted under pressure rather than out of genuine concern.

We have experienced unprecedented financial success over the past five years. We have a buoyant economy as a result of responsible actions taken by Governments and Opposition over the previous ten years. However, the manner in which the money has been expended is unfortunate. We have not had clear evidence of money being spent in a positive way in education. Senators Ryan and Costello clearly stated that money has been spent in a haphazard way. It has not been focused on the difficulties and deficits in certain areas. Priority has not been given to these areas and action has not been taken.

The Minister of State put a strong case this evening, but unfortunately the reality is different. While it seems that enormous amounts of money have been spent, the evidence is not clear. Various national and international reports show that our education system leaves a lot to be desired in many areas. There is a high level of both child and adult illiteracy, which EU and OECD reports have highlighted. That needs to be urgently tackled. Despite investment and attention having been given, the downward trend does not seem to have been altered. That matter must be tackled urgently.

One would hope that all children leaving primary school would be competent in reading, arithmetic and writing. It is essential that every child should be able to read, write, add and subtract if they are to survive. Unfortunately, many children leave school without being able to do that. Throwing money at the problem is not necessarily the wisest way to address it. We must provide skilled people. There is a shortage of people with relevant skills. Our education policy must address that fundamental issue.

The Minister claims the pupil-teacher ratio is now 1:20. That is not evident in many schools. I know teachers who have up to 35 pupils in their classroom. That is unacceptable. The Minister may have come up with that figure by dividing the overall number of pupils by the overall number of teachers. However, the teacher-pupil ratio is not working effectively in those schools where there are up to 35 pupils in classes.

There are difficulties in terms of people completing second level education. Some children do not sit the junior certificate examination, while a high percentage do not sit the leaving certificate examination. That is not commendable. In addition, there is a problem with school accommodation. While I agree that much funding appears to have been provided for capital programmes, the reality for many schools is unchanged. There is congestion in many second level schools and they do not meet the required health and safety standards. There is overcrowding and a lack of free mobility in classrooms and corridors. That matter has not been seriously addressed.

The Department of Education and Science recently agreed to build an extension to Tulla school in my constituency of Clare. However, it intends to put 700 children on a two-acre site which does not have any recreational facilities or space for a PE hall. I raised this matter on the Adjournment last week with the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Moffatt, who spoke on behalf of the Minister for Education and Science. I am delighted that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, is present this evening because, as the crow flies, he does not live that far from Tulla and he might be in a position to clarify the position.

—parents took action in relation to the levels of radon gas found there.

Mr. Burke

It is an election year. The Leas-Chathaoirleach should give the Senator some latitude.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I could also refer to the need for a greenfield site, rather than an extension, to be provided at Kilmihil. In doing so, however, I would only be touching upon the needs of my county. If we multiply the problems in Clare by 26, Members will see that the overall picture is quite sad. While figures are wonderful, the reality is not.

There is a real difficulty in encouraging people to consider entering teacher training, whether for primary or second level. In addition, there are real problems in attracting people to train as teachers in the areas of science such as chemistry, physics, etc., and this has resulted in a shortage of qualified personnel.

Education policy should be aimed at addressing this issue because if our population is well educated and well equipped, our economy will be vibrant. This is illustrated by what happened in recent years when we were able to exploit the vibrancy in the world economy because of the level of education among the populace. It is important that we ensure the various strands in the education sector will be ready to exploit future opportunities.

Ms Ormonde

We could remain here all night discussing the Government's record of achievement. As Senator Taylor-Quinn said, there is a need to highlight the rosy state of affairs that exists in this area. It is great that we have the opportunity to highlight—

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

Senator Ormonde should not misinterpret what I said.

Ms Ormonde

—the achievements of the Government in the area of education.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator should address her remarks through the Chair, not to Senator Costello.

Ms Ormonde

We put €133.2 million into building infrastructure in 1998, €144 million in 1999, €257 million in 2000, €317 million in 2001 and the proposed spending in 2002 is €337.6 million. That is reality and there I rest my case.

Mr. Quinn

There is a certain joy in relation to Private Members' motions which begin with the words: "That Seanad Éireann condemns the Government..", and then set out, in 11 lines or so, why the Government should be condemned. An amendment then follows, as happened this afternoon: "To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following: "notes with approval.." What a joy to have the freedom of an Independent, not compelled to vote one way or the other.

Successive Governments and successive Ministers, as far back as I can remember, have come into office determined to focus on doing the right thing. Whether they have succeeded is evidenced by the success of our economy. Senator Taylor-Quinn spoke earlier of our successful and vibrant economy. I have listened to people from around the world who envy Ireland. In the Forum for Europe today, at which Senator Ormonde was also present, some documentation contained forecasts that Ireland would be the second wealthiest nation – I am sure that is what it meant – per capita, within a number of years if our success continues. Our success was due to a mixture of things and Professor Joe Lee spoke about that today.

Education is clearly a major factor. The investment in education by successive Governments over many years – indeed, decades – has shown that it pays, but it will never be adequately funded. There will always be an Opposition to say the Government is not taking the right approach. We must at least consider whether we can do better and whether we can manage with the limited resources available.

I wish to refer to five areas in particular. The decision was made, perhaps six or seven years ago, to have free higher level education. I suggest we question that again. Is that the best use of resources? Is it right that those who can afford to pay for third level education should get it free and those who cannot afford to pay for it still get the education free but there are so many other costs that they cannot afford to go to college? I suggest the next Minister for Education should address that issue in the coming years.

Also in the context of resources, I am concerned that teachers are not being allowed to teach. They are not being given enough ability to teach. I was horrified by a figure quoted on a radio programme recently – and I hope I have got it correctly – in relation to a school in the west with 550 pupils and 50 teachers, or an average of 11 pupils per teacher. Maybe that is normal, but I am not aware of classes with anything approaching a ratio of 11 pupils per teacher. I can only assume that teachers are doing some other duties and I fear there is an element of bureaucracy involved. Perhaps those more closely involved in the teaching profession will say this is necessary and that, because they have so many other things to do, they need such extra support.

In hospitals, it was my impression that the amount of time which consultants allocated to seeing patients was limited because of other work they undertook, such as research, paperwork or whatever. I am concerned by the bureaucracy which seems to occur in every profession. We must make sure that doctors are there to treat patients and teachers are there to teach, rather than getting involved in paperwork. There is a danger that scarce resources may be allocated in the wrong way. The same applies in the Garda, with many gardaí doing paperwork when they should be out on the beat.

It is vital that the Government seeks value for money in relation to teachers. The Government is right to negotiate and not give way too easily to demands. It is easy to be sympathetic to teachers because we all admire their work, just as is it is easy to give in to the demands of nurses. It is right that the Government should question a situation where a person returns after a three month holiday and is not willing to work in the evening to attend parent-teacher meetings. It is disgraceful that teachers refuse to give up one evening to meet parents and insist that parents come to meet them during the daytime. Before the Government makes any settlement, that kind of attitude should be recognised as unacceptable. It is equally unacceptable that others return from holidays and immediately take a day off, whether for union affairs or mass or whatever. That is an annual practice which has gone on for many years.

The customer in education is the student. If we are to take a customer-minded view, as I suggest we do, we have to consider what is right for the student, not just what is right for the provider of education. Both must be taken into account but a balanced approach demands value for money and agreement to work together. Every teacher I know is anxious to do well and to put his or her heart and soul into good education. However, we really have to get the balance right in that regard.

Pre-school education is another area which has not received sufficient attention. All the evidence is to the effect that the minds of children under five years old can be stretched, creating confidence and assuredness as well as intellectual ability so that they have the ability to be socially more aware and to learn much more readily when they enter the educational system. To the best of my knowledge, we have not even scratched the surface in relation to pre-school education.

The confidence building aspect from a young age comes very much to the fore in the sector of education where I have some experience – the applied leaving certificate. That was a marvellous innovation by the then Minister for Education, Ms Niamh Bhreathnach, some years ago. She got excellent support from people in the Department who were just straining at the leash to take that kind of initiative. If one has the ideas, the commitment and a clear idea of what one wants to do, there is excellent support and teamwork available in the Department to make progress. I was delighted to have an involvement in the applied leaving certificate. It enabled those at the back of the class who were regarded as failures to gain confidence. It required changes on the part of the teachers who seized the opportunity and put their hearts and souls into making a success of it.

Continuous assessment is one of the great advantages of the applied leaving cert and other areas of education. It gets away from the idea of waiting two years to do the leaving certificate, sitting a three hour exam and then being told one has failed or done well, solely on the basis of that examination. Unfortunately, the continuous assessment was not carried out by the teachers themselves. Irish teachers seem to be alone in Europe in saying they do not want to be involved in assessing their own pupils. In other countries, teachers demand to be involved in that assessment process. Why is that not acceptable in Ireland? That should be questioned by the Minister and the Department of Education and Science to establish what has got into our psyche to prevent what seems to be normal practice elsewhere.

Finally, I wish to deal with the subject of science. Are we sure we are getting science back into primary education? If not, can we make sure that we do, because we recognise a future that is in need of support by more education in science and in languages? Let us begin teaching science and modern languages, as well as Irish, earlier in the curriculum. It does not start early enough here compared to other parts of the world, especially in Europe, where they start in primary school and pupils are much more articulate in different languages at a very early age. I would love to see French, German and Spanish being taught at a much earlier age because we are so backward in that area. The focus on the future of Europe gives us the opportunity to do so.

To say that the Government is undermining them is an untruth. I am sorry to disagree with the Senator on that point.

I am proud, as a Fianna Fáil Senator, to have witnessed the record of this Government in education over the last five years. I will be a witness to further improvements and developments in the education system after May.

Mr. Burke

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and the motion. It gives us the opportunity to have a healthy debate about all the issues in education. It is a very broad motion and provides great latitude to anyone who wants to speak on it.

I agree with Senator Quinn regarding some of the matters he raised and particularly about the maintenance grant. I am sorry the Minister for Education and Science has left. In any town where there is a third level college, whether it is an institute of technology or a university, a majority of students work in bars and the like. Senator Quinn mentioned that some do not need to avail of the grant, but it is not adequate for the majority who have to find employment.

It is a pity the Minister is not here as I would like to raise the schools which he said will be the subject of public private partnership projects in Ballincollig, Clones, Dunmanway and Shannon, among others. I would like to know how a public private partnership agreement will work for them. It has not been spelt out properly to us, but I hope it works. This is an area in which that approach can succeed. The Minister said that when this comes on stream, some principals will be free of the burden of building maintenance, allowing them to concentrate on their core educational functions. That means that when new schools are provided, the responsibility will be taken away from them. Under the old system, sadly, the principal of a school had to ring Tullamore if he needed a hammer, a nail or a pane of glass. The majority of these things could have been centralised and there was no need for the principal to be involved. The job could have been done by caretakers or small, local contractors. In fairness to the Department, there has been some streamlining, but I would like the Minister to spell out how public private partnerships will operate in relation to the provision of second level schools.

The Minister made reference to the previous Government, saying that it provided little in relation to capital grants for education. I remind the Minister that the Government that was in office prior to 1993 and its Minister for Finance, the current Taoiseach, presided over the highest interest rate levels in the history of the State. They went as high as 20% and in some cases to over 30%. That hampered the economy. The 1997 Government provided £91 million in capital grants when the economy was only just beginning to take off and it should have been given some credit for that by previous speakers.

The Minister stated that when this Government took office, children with disabilities had no automatic entitlements to special education services. Such services were only provided if and when resources were available. We are told that all changed in October 1998 when the Government decided that all children in the primary system should be automatically entitled to a response to their needs. In reality, the parents of those people had to go to court to establish their rights as we saw in the Sinnott case, the O'Donoghue case and, this week, in the McNabb case in Galway. The parents of those children had to force the Government into court to have their needs met.

Much capital funding is pointed to in the Minister's speech. I come from the BMW region where we have Objective One status, which is for poorer regions. I have a list of schools in County Mayo which need to be upgraded and in some cases require capital grants for replacements. In my own town of Curnanool a new school is needed and the school at Snugboro needs to be extended. Other schools in need of attention include Carrowkennedy outside Westport, St. Patrick's national school in Castlebar, Scoil Raifteirí in Castlebar, which needs an extension, and a little school outside Castlebar, Errew national school, which needs to be upgraded. These are only a few examples. While I appreciate that much has been done over the years, much remains to be done. Errew national school is a small rural school which needs an extension. In cases such as that, in schools with less than five teachers, the Government should do away with the local contribution. A school like Errew has to collect £25,000, but there are only about 60 families sending pupils to it. How will they collect that local contribution? I urge the Minister to look closely at abolishing it.

I compliment the Department of Education and Science. In some respects it has streamlined its building programme and, as of now, could spend £100 million more this year, but the Minister will not give the go ahead. In some cases it should cut out the middle man by allowing boards of management, the Minister or the Department to go straight to building contractors to ask them to build extensions to primary schools. There are some cases in which a small extension to a national school or second level school is required and the Department could cut out much red tape.

Much has to be done in the area of special needs and it is only right that every one is entitled to an education. I reiterate my request to the Minister to look again at the grant for third level students.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

I support the amendment. When I read the motion before us, I, like my colleagues on this side of the House, was baffled that a much more constructive debate was not being promoted. As speakers on the other side have said, it is very wide-ranging. It is a catch-all motion; one could home in on any aspect of it and make a long contribution. So many spectacular and phenomenal developments have taken place in education in recent years that one item alone would be worthy of a major debate.

The motion is so misleading, misinformed and contrary to the facts relating to developments in education that it strikes me as mischievous, if not one which has been carelessly thrown together. I hope I will have the opportunity to illustrate this by taking some examples of landmark developments in educational provision and policy that have taken place under the Minister for Edu cation and Science, Deputy Woods, and his predecessor, Deputy Martin.

One of the cornerstones of the Government's commitment to the welfare of the people is undoubtedly its record of investment in education. Last week, the revised Estimates for 2002 showed that educational expenditure will increase by 14% to over €5.4 billion, compared to expenditure in 2001. Over a five year period, the aggregate increase in educational provision is of the order of 70-75%; expenditure has almost doubled during the lifetime of the Government. If proof is needed to discount the spurious assertions in the motion, this unprecedented level of funding is testament to the Government's commitment to education.

A brief sketch of the principal achievements of the Government shows that the education system has developed spectacularly in a short period. Young people are being afforded opportunities in education and in the economy which were never available to their parents. This shows that positive developments in education are a key element of the PPF. It is equally true that the current level of success experienced by our economy and society is due in no small part to the quality of our education system and the commitment, dedication and professionalism of teachers at all levels.

I want to address the false assertion in the motion that the professional status of teachers has been undermined. Of course there is a degree of demoralisation owing to a minority of teachers taking a certain line.

I want to focus on some of the major achievements of the Government in the area of educational development and the establishment of structures. These did not come about by accident. They were the result of wide-ranging partnerships and consultation. The Education Act, 1998, the Educational Welfare Service and the Teaching Council are three developments that highlight the consensus approach the Government has taken. The contribution of all the parties involved continues to be extremely positive and progressive.

It can be stated without fear of contradiction that, in recent times, we have seen the most significant advances ever in primary education. The programmes and modules that are central to these advancements, such as the revised curriculum for primary schools, are being implemented as we speak. The introduction of information and communication technology in the Irish education system was achieved faster than in any other European country. The OECD confirms Ireland's status in this regard. This did not happen by accident, it was a result of the full and meaningful participation by teachers as equal partners in the process. Teachers have been well equipped and resourced to take on the new and additional responsibilities that are attendant on these developments. Hundreds of millions of euro are being invested in this programme.

To my recollection, teachers' unions and teachers generally have been extremely positive in their response to the level of resources provided. They have responded in a similar manner to the many other initiatives and innovations introduced by the Government at first and second level. This is a clear indication of the quality of consultation that has taken place among all of the partners involved and runs contrary to the suggestion that the status of teachers has been diminished.

Mr. Costello

It happens to be a fact. Why are so many teachers demoralised?

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Fitzgerald must be allowed to make his contribution to this debate.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Unpalatable as they may seem to Senator Costello, these are the facts that establish categorically—

Mr. Costello

Senator Fitzgerald must make accurate assertions.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

During the Government's lifetime, teachers have been encouraged and promoted towards full and meaningful participation in all educational developments and in the establishment of new educational structures. I know it is not nice for Senator Costello to hear this, particularly when a motion to the contrary has been tabled and when the lid has been blown on the spurious assertion.

There is no doubt that educational disadvantage and learning difficulties are a source of inequality wherever and whenever they surface in the education system. No matter how hard we work in this area, we will never achieve enough. This has been acknowledged by the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Woods, and his predecessor. Let us look at what has been achieved in this area in an objective and realistic way. At the end of its first year in office, the Government provided an unprecedented £57 million as a two-year funding initiative to tackle educational disadvantage at all levels. The measures included the hiring of 450 new teachers for remedial and other disadvantaged areas. There was a major improvement in adult literacy during this time, and I hope I get an opportunity to talk about that—

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will not because I must ask him to conclude.

Mr. Costello

The Senator is losing the run of himself.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Some £7 million was given to promote access to third level education. I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, on his work in transforming adult education from a wing and a prayer to its establishment as an anchor in educational provision. That and the many developments that have taken place in the area of special needs and remediation, which is available to all schools today, are just some of the examples of the tremendous progress made by the Government.

Mrs. Jackman

I am glad to see Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Treacy, in this House, but with due respect to him, I would have preferred to see the Minister, Deputy Woods. I do not mean any disrespect to the Minister of State.

Mr. Treacy

He is very busy.

Mr. Costello

God love him.

Mrs. Jackman

The Minister for Education and Science may be very busy, but the Minister of State has taken time to come into this House. It should have been incumbent on the Minister, Deputy Woods, to face the motion before us. He should have come here to answer the points that are extremely important—

Mr. Costello

The Minister could not face the facts.

Mrs. Jackman

If we were to check the record on the Order of Business over the last two years, I am sure we would see regular request for the Minister for Education and Science's presence in this House.

The motion's reference to the undermining of the professional status of teachers is correct. I have not worked as a teacher for a few years now, but I can say that, having met teachers when I visit the school where I used to work, morale is at the lowest level I have ever come across. I have noticed a deep anger among teachers which will erupt sooner rather than later. They have literally been ignored in relation to the resolution of their pay demand. This situation has been further exacerbated by the supervision and substitution issue. There is no doubt that this will not come to an end even if the situation is resolved tomorrow morning. It will affect the high quality of our education system. Sadly, we will find that the dedication, commitment and sense of enthusiasm that were the hallmarks of teaching will be gone. That is a fact of life and I am very conscious of it in talking to teachers.

We will find it very difficult to recruit more teachers at second level because the press that teachers have received in recent years has been abysmal. The Minister has failed to address the issues and to meet the union halfway. Some may argue that the ASTI has been intransigent. As a member of the ASTI I do not accept this. We would do far better if we did not have Senator O'Toole intervening negatively. As a teacher I am amazed at his lack of constructiveness. He is meddling in the affairs of another union, something which has never happened before. It has been a major negative factor.

There is one matter people may not have considered regarding the supervision and substitution issue. Students have told me they now realise, when they do not have teachers supervising, that a bond does exist between pupil and teacher. I know from supervision and substitution periods that there is a security level where students do talk to one out of the classroom, and they see us teachers as a support mechanism. We might get the negatives but by and large they want security, they want that rapport when it comes to issues that may not be educational or curricular but personal. That is lost to them between now and their exams. The Government will let the situation deteriorate right through May and the election period. We will be dealing with a worse situation in September.

Where is the facilitator promised by the Minister some time ago? I am positive the facilitator was supposed to have been appointed last year. The appointment of a facilitator in relation to trade union disputes is the only way forward. In the event of the Minister not having sufficient appetite or interest to resolve the dispute, I have already in press releases and letters appealed to the Taoiseach, as the supremo when it comes to resolving difficult disputes, to intervene. I agree this is difficult but I am amazed he has not intervened, seeing that his Minister has completely abdicated his responsibility to come to grips with a very problematic situation.

I was looking through the Official Report of Dáil debates, and in Adjournment motion after Adjournment motion, several issues – schools refurbishment, schools building projects, school staffing, youth services, transport – have cropped up repeatedly. Would that be the case if there was not a problem, which according to this amendment there is not?

In Limerick, and I am sorry the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, is not here, schools are in an awful situation as regards their refurbishment, and Bilboa school is still awaiting funding for an extension promised during the by-election. I will hope the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív, will do something for that school under the CLÁR programme because it is no longer the subject of any interest or support from the Department of Education and Science. It seems we will have to look to another Minister to do something for a school which is the only lifeline for that area because of population decline.

I listened on my way to Dublin this morning to a parent saying that but for money from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul she would not have had her child psychologically assessed. That is shocking. Her expenses in euro were spelt out in terms of meals, transport—

Ms Ormonde

There is plenty of money provided for that.

Mrs. Jackman

The principal spoke, and the principal of any primary school would know exactly how to access funding, but he was not able to do so. The whole school had benefited from funding from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, which is wonderful, but surely if we were to believe everything in this amendment – wonderful this, wonderful that – then that poor lady would not have been reliant on charity to get the money for assessment.

I have a final point in relation to the primary schools in Limerick city and county. Not alone are children not being treated for their special needs but they have not even been assessed. I have had so many presentations from principals that this amendment is clearly utopian, Alice in Wonderland stuff. The reality is far different and is adequately described in the motion advanced by Senator Costello.

The Senator cannot accuse the Minister of that.

Mr. Costello

He was in breach of the Data Protection Act in taking salaries from the teachers which he had to give back. That again was rubbing salt into the wounds at a time when the teachers were just about to enter into talks at the Labour Relations Commission. It soured everything. Who but this Minister and this Government would do a thing like that?

I referred to the 850 major capital projects which the Minister refuses to list and prioritise and on which he refuses to give any information. As I have stated previously, this is a slush fund for the Minister and the Government in the run up to the general election. That is the manner in which the Minister is dealing with this. I have seen a couple of the announcements already. They involve Fianna Fáil Deputies in their local bailiwick asking the question at the appropriate time and the Minister giving it.

Amendment put.

Tá

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Fitzgerald, Liam.Gibbons, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.

Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quinn, Feargal.Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.

Norris, David.O'Meara, Kathleen.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Gibbons and Lanigan; Níl, Senators Costello and Ryan.

Amendment declared carried.

Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 7 Mar 2002