Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 2002

Vol. 170 No. 22

Order of Business.

Ms O'Rourke

The Christmas spirit is setting in. We do not have many matters on the Adjournment. However, that is not the case with the business of the House.

The Order of Business is Nos. 1, motion seeking the approval of a Council framework decision relating to the combating of the sexual exploitation of children and child pornography, a measure referred by the Seanad to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights which is returned following discussion, without debate; No. 2, Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill, 2002 – Committee and Remaining Stages, to conclude not later than 2 p.m.; No. 3, statements on the high level of alcohol consumption by young people, to conclude no later than 6 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes, and on which Senators may share time; and No. 9, motion No. 19, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. There will be a sos between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m.

May I say something with the permission of the Cathaoirleach?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Ms O'Rourke

We have tried from the beginning of the year not to take Committee and Report Stages of Bills together, but time is pressing and it is more difficult this week and next week to give full time to debates. The Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill will go to the Dáil tomorrow and the papers must be printed this afternoon. That is by way of explanation.

Mr. B. Hayes

I am sure the Leader accepts that it is a bad precedent for Committee and Report Stages of a Bill to be taken together. It is understandable that it should happen where there is unanimity concerning the legislation, such as with the British-Irish Agreement (Amendment) Bill where we agreed to take all Stages in one day. However, it is clear that there is considerable disagreement concerning the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill and, given that level of disagreement, it would be a bad precedent to proceed with both Committee and Report Stages today.

Will the Leader take up a substantive issue with the Minister for Finance concerning the matter Senator Dooley raised yesterday regarding pricing and charges? The Government proposes to increase substantially the stamp duty on ATM, cheque, credit and laser cards, a measure was announced in the budget. However, when banks propose additional charges, they must write to their customers informing them of the charges before they are implemented.

Will the Leader request the Minister for Finance to demand that all financial institutions write to their credit card customers informing them of the latest Government stealth tax which it is proposed to implement from 1 January next and giving them the option of leaving the credit card scheme if they choose not to pay? There is a law governing the implementation of bank charges and the same law should apply to increasing stamp duty on bank and credit cards. The budget announcement in this regard is an example of an agreement being breached in the middle of a financial year and this is a bad precedent. Will the Leader take up this issue with the Minister for Finance before he introduces the Finance Bill to the Houses?

Mr. O'Toole

While I do not want a debate on No. 1, I would like the House to be aware that a precedent of taking such motions without debate is not being established. No. 1 has been discussed by a committee and has been returned to the House, which should be at liberty to discuss it if it believes it requires further discussion. We have agreed in the interests of having a smooth operation that, where it is proposed to refer a measure before the House to a committee, we do not discuss the measure until it is returned by the committee. The basis on which we do it is that, when it returns from the committee, it is open to discussion. I do not seek a discussion on No. 1 because I know it has been discussed at length. My point is that the matter should not be let pass without taking note of the agreed manner in which we deal with it.

On yesterday's Order of Business, Senator Ulick Burke and others raised the proposed abolition of the Western Development Commission. This is outrageous given the discussions in the House about the importance of focusing on, understanding and developing what is happening in rural areas. What is at issue is that a Minister does not want another competitor in this sector. That is unacceptable, as were the comments made yesterday on the other side of the House. Only for the fact that the contributor is not present, I would deal with the issues as they arose. I would like a discussion in the House on this matter.

The deciding vote of Independent Senators caused the appointment of a Minister with responsibility for the west in the previous coalition Government at a time when Fianna Fáil said it would never agree to increasing the number of Ministers of State from 17 to 19 and gave an assurance that, as soon as it entered Government, it would reduce the number from 19 to 17. Thankfully that never happened, as we all know. I would be the last one to reduce promotional prospects for anybody and it is important we should retain that. However, that is unacceptable and I would like the Minister to come here and explain himself. I would also like Fianna Fáil to initiate a debate within its own party on this. What is going on here is wrong and it gives the wrong signal. This is a decision that will badly hit people in the west. It certainly should not happen without much discussion and consultation.

An issue related to that point, which also needs to be discussed and which could be taken in conjunction with the point just raised by Senator Hayes, is that of pricing. In this House about two months ago, during a discussion on inflation, prices and competitiveness, I gave the examples of the prices of milk and meat. I said Irish farmers would be better off in a trade union that would look after their interests rather than the IFA, which does not appear to look at what is happening out there. As we saw last night, the farmers are being crucified by low milk and meat prices. Somewhere along the line other people are making huge profits. It is time we looked at this matter. It is fuelling inflation and it is unfair on the prime producers – the farmers. It is unfair to the whole system and we are all suffering because of it. I would like to know why action cannot be taken. This could be discussed at the same time as the issue raised by Senator Brian Hayes.

Mr. Ryan

As I have already informed the Leader, we will not agree to the Order of Business. The Leader's position on this has been entirely honourable and I am not accusing her of anything else. When we discussed this informally last week, the Leader, other Members and I were under the impression this was a simple Bill to deal with the possible extinguishing of large numbers of planning permissions by the end of December. On those grounds we, in the Labour Party, were happy to facilitate the Government. It turns out to be something entirely different and this is not the Leader's fault. This is a Bill with many sections of considerable complexity.

There is a principle involved here and we must also consider the practicalities. Senator Hayes said we agreed to take all Stages of the British-Irish Agreement (No. 2) Bill last week in one session. In hindsight, having watched reactions, that was not a great decision either. There were issues to be teased out on that, which would have been better teased out in the Houses of the Oireachtas than by a slanging match between the Ulster Unionist Party and the Irish Government over the airwaves and in public. A situation has evolved that need not have evolved had proper time been used. It is a bad idea and often unexpectedly so.

Apart from my own and the Labour Party's views on it, we have no assurance that this Bill is technically consistent. We will have no chance for a proper delay after Committee Stage to allow the Minister to take seriously into account any issue that may arise which he has not considered. We recently discussed the Digital Hub Bill with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and issues arose on Committee stage which the Minister immediately accepted at least needed reflection. He did reflect and on some of them he did what the Opposition wanted and on others he did not. However, he accepted the wisdom in the Government on this issue was not 100%. The Government does not have a monopoly on wisdom – nobody does, least of all the Opposition.

We are being told this Bill is so important that there will be no chance to investigate whether there might be mistakes or inconsistencies in it. How do we know? I have been in this House on and off for the past 20 years. Legislation has gone through with mistakes and inconsistencies. In the last Seanad, legislation that had passed through one House came here, to repeal a section in another Bill that did not exist. As Senator O'Toole will remember, with the then Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, we had to find a way of amending it, quite surreptitiously, because there were mistakes in it. The Leader is now proposing that we should not have the opportunity to do that and my party does not accept it. This Bill is far to complex for that.

I move an amendment to the Order of Business that No. 2 be the commencement of Committee Stage, that there should be no deadline on Committee Stage, and that Report Stage should be taken at a later date. My proposal is that we begin Committee Stage and we see how it proceeds. This Bill could be taken in the Dáil next week, so there is no reason for us to rush it today. We should have no deadline by which Committee Stage should end.

An Cathaoirleach

That is what has been proposed.

Mr. Ryan

No. The Leader suggested that all Stages be completed by 2 o'clock today.

Ms O'Rourke

That is correct.

Mr. Ryan

I propose that we commence Committee Stage and do no more than that.

An Cathaoirleach

Committee Stage can be taken first and then we decide when to take Report Stage.

Mr. Ryan

On the Order of Business, the Leader has proposed that all Stages be taken today. If I agree to the Order of Business, I am agreeing that all Stages be taken today and I do not agree to that.

An Cathaoirleach

You are proposing that only Committee Stage be taken today.

Mr. Ryan

Yes. Apart from that I want to raise two brief issues.

An Cathaoirleach

I hope they will be brief.

Mr. Ryan

This is a very serious issue and it needed to be explained. However, these will be very brief.

Ms O'Rourke

We might not understand them, but the Senator should go on.

Mr. Ryan

That is not like the Leader.

Ms O'Rourke

I am sorry. The Senator should excuse me.

Mr. Ryan

I would like the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come here and explain to us the Government's position on the hijacking of the Iraqi arms dossier by the United States. United States officials are the only people to have the full dossier and apparently they are editing it before it is given to anybody else. The Minister for Foreign Affairs should explain our role on the Security Council, if somebody else is to filter the information available to us. That issue is of central importance to the safety of this planet and we should debate it.

The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources should come here to explain what the Government is proposing to do with the RTÉ licence fee, and its proposals for RTÉ and public broadcasting generally. There is an atmosphere of rumour and confusion at present that is serving no purpose in terms of RTÉ's future.

Mr. Leyden

I ask the Leader to consider having a debate in the new year on the serious crisis in the Middle East. With the permission of the Chair and the House, we should invite the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Israeli ambassador and the representative of the Palestinian people in Ireland to come to the House to have an open debate on this issue. A general election will be held in Israel in January and this House could facilitate discussions between both parties and could be a facilitator for peace and conflict resolution. As a neutral country we are in a unique position to have a detailed debate on this issue.

Mr. Finucane

When the Nice referendum was carried recently, we, in this House, were all very pleased it was successful. The European Convention was established to decide on a new constitution and treaty for Europe. A colleague of ours, Deputy John Bruton, has been assiduous in his attendance and has spoken out on many issues. However, there has been no commitment by the Minister of State, Deputy Dick Roche, to attend these meetings. What is happening?

The Minister should come to the House to establish why we are sidelining this institution when the foreign affairs ministers from France and Germany are attending. We may regret sidelining it, because there will be no point waiting until June when proposals are formalised and then objecting. Ministers, like the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, are sniping from the sidelines in Dublin rather than being in there fighting the case in relation to tax harmonisation or any other issues that are being discussed. I ask the Leader to request the Minister for State to come to the House so that we can find out how serious the Government is about Europe.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I ask the Leader to comment on two issues relating to third level education. If proof was needed that the abolition of third level education fees has not improved access to third level from the ranks of the disadvantaged, it has become available today with the publication of official figures from the Department of Education and Science which show that 2% of students who avail of third level grant support come from the ranks of semi-skilled and manual workers.

In terms of the socio-economic profile of the third level student population, another recent survey firmly supports today's figures. From September 2000 onwards, more than 7,000 disadvantaged students received top-up grants of about €1,555 each. I suggest this area should be given serious consideration as part of the current review of third level funding.

On a related matter, a recent report forecasts a dramatic decline in the third level student population in the next ten years. The cause of the decline will be demographic trends, rather than funding issues. For every 100 young people in the 16 to 19 age group in 2000, there will only be 81 in 2010 and 79 the following year. Incidentally, the Leader should note that the study forecasts that the midlands will be worst affected with the equivalent figure set to fall to 71 within a decade. I am not sure if she will be able to do anything about it, although we both did our bit in that regard long ago. The report points up the need for an urgent review of our order of priorities in allocating the third level budget.

Mr. Norris

I ask the Leader to request that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, appear before the House to update Senators on the position regarding the report of the arms inspectors in Iraq. Many people are extremely concerned that the United States, very much an interested party in this matter, has hijacked the report. I heard a rather weak explanation from the United Nations in which it claimed it could not photocopy the report. If the United Nations cannot photocopy a document which can be carried through an airport in a plastic bag, the organisation is seriously under-resourced. It is extraordinary that one of the principal protagonists in this row should take the material and not only photocopy it and have it in its possession, but also deny access to it to the other members of the Security Council, of which Ireland is one.

Apparently this morning's news reports used the word "edited" in the context of the report. What does "editing" entail in this regard? We are due to vacate our seat on the Security Council in about two weeks. We should not give a whimper of acquiescence to the United States on this extremely serious matter in doing so.

The situation is obviously escalating. One of the more sinister events has been the detention of the ship from North Korea with 12 scud missiles on board. It is very alarming that the United States is playing down the issue and I wonder why. As our membership of the Security Council draws to a close, we are entitled to receive an explanation. We should give strong backing to our representative on the Security Council to challenge the unilateral action of the United States. If this process is to lead us to war, which I hope it does not, it must be clear and transparent and people must be confident that matters are being handled properly.

With regard to taking all Stages of a Bill in one day, I understand the technical problem facing the Leader in that the date on the Bill requires that it be passed before the end of the session. However, this is not a precedent as, unfortunately, it happens every year coming up to Christmas. This year is not as bad as most of the 14 other years I have been in the House. I call on the Leader to apply pressure on Departments to ensure they do not leave important legislative proposals until the end of the session and ram them all through at once. The problem is a reflection on the Departments rather than the political parties.

Yesterday was International Human Rights Day. I understand the Government proposes to reintroduce a new version of the legislation which incorporates the European Convention of Human Rights, possibly through the Dáil. Will the Leader indicate the current position? I understand the changes in the Bill will further erode the rights of plaintiffs. This matter should come before the House so that it may be discussed in a non-partisan manner.

Mr. Dardis

With regard to ordering business and the taking of various Stages of Bills on the same day, more experienced Senators will recall that taking Committee and Report Stages together has been a regular feature of business, whereas taking Committee Stage immediately after Second Stage is very unusual. It is a matter for the agreement of the House.

With regard to the issue raised by Senator Finucane, members of the convention have regularly presented their views to the Forum on Europe. The chairman of the Forum on Europe is due to address the Joint Committee on European Affairs today. The Minister appeared before the committee prior to the Copenhagen summit. Ongoing liaison is taking place with regard to the work of the convention, which is not to say it would not be useful to debate the issue in the House. I do not believe any of the parties share the view expressed by Mr. Prodi that tax affairs should be covered by majority voting and we should lose sovereignty over them.

Mr. Finucane

Nobody said that. We should be in the forum on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Dardis

I share many of the views expressed by Senator Norris regarding Iraq. Several weeks ago, I noted in the House how, on a visit to the United States, I had been struck by the divergence between the views of the Administration and those of many citizens. It appears the Government of the United States has made up its mind on certain matters, irrespective of the contents of the inspectors' report and the document published by Iraq.

Mr. Norris

Yes.

Mr. Dardis

It would be useful to debate the issue immediately after Christmas.

Ms O'Meara

I second Senator Ryan's amendment to the Order of Business. I agree with Senator Dardis that Committee Stage should not be taken immediately after Second Stage. Our agreement to take Committee Stage today reflects our reasonableness with regard to business generally. It would be much more desirable to take Second Stage this week and Committee Stage next week in order that the points raised on Second Stage could be considered by the Minister and his officials and reflected in the Bill when we take Committee Stage. The attempt to take Committee and Report Stages today means that it will not be feasible for the Minister to accept amendments tabled by Senators from this side of the House, even if he were inclined to do so. Effectively, therefore, we will have a wasted debate which is not good practice. Given the views expressed by many Senators on rushing legislation, it would be useful to put the brakes on this Bill.

I agree with my colleague with regard to the drip-drip effect of the information emanating about RTÉ. I request that the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, come before the House and set out his proposals in respect of the national broadcaster and the use of the publicly funded licence fee and allow us to respond.

Mr. Callanan

I support Senator Dardis's comments on the manner in which the debate will be taken today. It is usual to take Report and Final Stages together, but somewhat unusual to take Second Stage and Committee Stage together.

Senator O'Toole raised a very important matter. The "Prime Time" programme last night showed clear evidence of price fixing among the bodies trading in milk to the consumer. Such practices have a significant impact on the consumer and possibly the farmer. I ask the Leader to invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, to the House to participate in a full debate on what is happening in the dairy and meat processing sectors. There was clear evidence last night that price fixing is being engaged in. It is a bad practice and the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment should come before the House at the earliest opportunity with a view to discussing the possibility of having the Competition Authority investigate the matter.

Mr. Bannon

I support the amendment to the Order of Business. I see no reason to rush the Bill through the House. When legislation is rushed through, an air of suspicion is created. There is a need for more clarity in regard to the Bill and we must ensure that the social elements it contains are not destroyed. There are 120,000 people waiting for houses and we must ensure that their aspirations are met. We must get the legislation right this time. There are several references to Fine Gael policy in the amending legislation. I am delighted the Government is taking some of our policies on board in the Bill and I would like to explain them a little more in the course of the Committee Stage debate.

Mr. Coghlan

Senator Finucane raised the important matter of the Convention on the Future of Europe, which the House discussed briefly on a previous occasion. I propose that we invite our three representatives at the convention, Deputy John Bruton, Proinsias De Rossa MEP and the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, to the House—

An Cathaoirleach

That should be done through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. Coghlan

I put forward this proposal because it is an important matter. This country will have to start to make up its mind where it stands in regard to a union of nation states or a federal Europe. I make this proposal to which I think the Leader would be well disposed.

Ms O'Rourke

I proposed it last week.

Mr. Coghlan

I propose that we invite them to address the House before Christmas, if possible.

An Cathaoirleach

If the Senator wishes to do so he should discuss the matter with his party's representative on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. Coghlan

I have already spoken to my party's representative.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator need not raise the matter here.

Ms O'Rourke

Senator Coghlan is going to call into his office.

Mr. Coghlan

I put forward this proposal.

Ms O'Rourke

Senator Brian Hayes and others raised price fixing and competition and the need for a debate on the matter. The Senator also asked that financial institutions inform their customers of the changes brought in by the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, in the budget. My experience is that we will pay for them anyway and that the financial institutions will recoup whatever expense is involved in informing people of them. It is a matter which should be brought to the attention of the Minister for Finance.

Although not referring specifically to the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill, 2002, Senator O'Toole said that in future we should seek to obviate circumstances where all Stages of Bills would be taken together. I will refer to that matter later, but I take the Senator's point. He also referred to the need for the House to debate the Western Development Commission, which was established under legislation approved by both Houses.

Senator Ryan raised the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill, 2002. I do not wish to be antagonistic. I thank the Senator for his telephone call about the matter yesterday and for what he said earlier. We had an informal agreement, but I understand those things change from time to time and there is no great angst about that. We had a four hour debate on Second Stage and I do not know how that could be construed as rushed. At the end of Second Stage, everyone who wished to vote was given the opportunity to do so. Senator Ryan called the vote, as is his right, and we participated in it. It is wrong to say Committee Stage is following Second Stage. The proof of this is that the Senator has tabled nine amendments. How did he manage to do so? The amendments look weighty and good and a great deal of thought was put into them. I do not see the reason for panic in regard to this Bill. There will be a debate on the Senator's nine amendments until 2 p.m. I do not see how that is speedy, rushed or hasty. A vote was called last night and the Senator, fair dues to him, has tabled nine amendments today. There will be three hours to debate the nine amendments and the Senator will exhaust himself discussing them.

Mr. Ryan

There will be three hours for Committee Stage and I presume the Leader knows Committee Stage has more than—

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader to reply.

Mr. Ryan

The Leader does not seem to understand the procedures of the House. Committee Stage deals with the entire Bill and not just our amendments.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader to reply.

Ms O'Rourke

I listened in a docile way when Senator Ryan spoke. We all have to sit and take it when the Senator goes on the lecture trail. We are equally entitled to give—

Mr. Ryan

People in glass houses—

Ms O'Rourke

The Senator should watch out. He will be broken with stones.

I thank Senators Dardis and Norris and others for raising the US hijacking of the Iraq dossier. It seems the US has already made up its mind that it wants war and that is what it will get, which is frightening.

Senator O'Meara referred to RTÉ and the increase in the licence fee. Our understanding is that the increase was passed at Cabinet but there are some caveats and matters to be investigated. Everyone wants to discuss what RTÉ will do with the increase when it is introduced.

Senator Norris called for the upcoming legislation on human rights to be debated. That would be a good matter for the House to debate.

Senator Finucane referred the Convention on the Future of Europe and asked what Deputy John Bruton, the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, and Fianna Fáil are doing about it. I am not seeking to castigate the Senator, but this matter was raised on the Order of Business and I suggested that Deputy John Bruton, the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, and Proinsias De Rossa MEP come before the House with Valéry Giscard d'Estaing for a debate on the matter. That suggestion remains for the Cathaoirleach to consider at our Committee on Procedure and Privileges meeting. Senator Finucane may not have been here, but he is correct in raising the matter.

Senator Fitzgerald referred to third level fees and asked about any evidence in that regard. I think he raised the matter because today's newspapers inquire whether the abolition of fees led to more disadvantaged people entering third level. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that they did not. The Senator pointed to decreasing enrolment at third level, which is a matter of concern. However, more older people are going back to college to take modules of courses and extra degrees, which is good. There is clear evidence that the disadvantaged did not enter third level in greater numbers when fees were abolished. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, is right to have a public debate, which will involve all the institutions, bodies and agencies, on the matter. Let us see what comes out of it. We should not be afraid of facts and should welcome such a debate.

Senator Dardis pointed out that the Committee on European Affairs debated the future of Europe, although he said that this House would be a good venue in which to discuss the matter further.

Senator Callanan raised price fixing and called for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come before the House to discuss competition, pricing, cartels and so on. That is a matter which could be followed up, and I intend to do so.

Senator Bannon did not oppose Second Stage but he is worried about the Bill now. Last night his party abstained on the vote on Second Stage, which it has every right to do, but it did not oppose it. That was noble of the Senator.

Mr. Bannon

The Leader was taking our policies on board. This is an amendment to take Fine Gael's policies—

Mr. Finucane

We always thought it was a hare-brained idea.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader, without interruption.

Mr. O'Toole

On a point of order, it is inappropriate for a Member to refer to the absence of another Member from the House at any time.

An Cathaoirleach

One Chair is enough in the House.

Mr. Dardis

The Members to whom the Leader referred were present but did not vote.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader, without interruption.

Ms O'Rourke

Senator Bannon has portrayed a great interest in the Bill but he has not tabled an amendment to it. At least the Labour Party tabled an amendment.

Mr. Bannon

I did not table an amendment because of a lack of time.

Ms O'Rourke

There are four hours for the debate.

Mr. O'Toole

The Leader is out of order. She is giving a lecture.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader, without interruption.

Ms O'Rourke

Senator Bannon had the night to reflect on the legislation.

Mr. O'Toole

The Leader is well out of order in lecturing Members.

Ms O'Rourke

Everybody understands Senator Bannon's concern but he did not vote against the legislation nor did he table an amendment.

Senator Leyden called for a debate on the Middle East, which he has sought since he came into the House. It is a matter to which the House must pay serious attention.

The planning Bill is going to the printers this afternoon with whatever amendments are accepted. All Stages will be taken without a break in the Dáil tomorrow.

Senators

Rush, rush.

Ms O'Rourke

I do not say we should do what the Dáil is doing but I point that out so that Members can get ready to vote and display their indignation next week.

Mr. O'Toole

That is outrageous.

Ms O'Rourke

Is the Senator's indignation outrageous? All Stages of a Bill will be put through the House next week but, in my defence, I have resisted taking Bills in such a manner up to now.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Ryan has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That Committee Stage only of No. 2 be debated today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Mr. Ryan

Yes.

Amendment put.

Tá

Bannon, James.Browne, Fergal.Burke, Ulick.Coghlan, Paul.Cummins, Maurice.Finucane, Michael.Hayes, Brian.Henry, Mary.

McDowell, Derek.McHugh, Joe.Norris, David.O'Meara, Kathleen.Phelan, John.Ryan, Brendan.Tuffy, Joanna.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Brady, Cyprian.Brennan, Michael.Callanan, Peter.Cox, Margaret.Daly, Brendan.Dardis, John.Dooley, Timmy.Feeney, Geraldine.Fitzgerald, Liam.Glynn, Camillus.Hanafin, John.Hayes, Maurice.Kenneally, Brendan.Kett, Tony.

Kitt, Michael P.Leyden, Terry.Lydon, Don.MacSharry, Marc.Mansergh, Martin.Minihan, John.Mooney, Paschal C.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Rourke, Mary.O'Toole, Joe.Ormonde, Ann.Scanlon, Eamon.Walsh, Kate.White, Mary M.

Tellers: Tá, Senators O'Meara and Ryan; Níl, Senators Minihan and Moylan.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.