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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Oct 2003

Vol. 174 No. 4

Public Transport: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann noting:

(a) the delay in constructing the Luas lines in Dublin, the significant cost overruns associated with that project and the severe disruption caused in much of central Dublin by the construction works;

(b) the fact that the provision of the QBC network is well behind time and that moneys allocated in 2002 for carrying out work on the network were not spent;

(c) the failure of the Government and the Railway Procurement Agency to set out a coherent plan for the provision of a metro service;

(d) the fact that the completion of the M50 is behind time and that the existing road has inadequate capacity;

(e) the failure of Government and Iarnród Éireann to carry out capacity enhancement works on the Maynooth mainline rail line and the DART, notwithstanding the fact that such improvements have been announced by Government on numerous occasions in recent years; and

therefore calls on the Government to set out and finance an integrated transport plan for Dublin and deplores its lamentable failure to do so heretofore.

Tá áthas orm an rún in ainm Seanadóirí Páirtí Lucht Oibre a mholadh. Public transport in Dublin is, to use a phrase with which the Minister of State will be familiar, a joke. It is a mess. Despite ten years of economic growth and unprecedented resources, our system is still woefully inadequate for our purposes and is by any reasonable standard worse than that available to the citizens of any other capital city in the EU. The circumstances enjoyed by Governments during that time, especially this Government and the one before it, could hardly have been better.

It is important to remember that this Government had available to it a virtual consensus about what needed to be done. Opinion formers and policy makers gave up making the case for a road based solution in Dublin many years ago. I was a member of Dublin City Council for 12 years until earlier this year and virtually every councillor of the 52 in that body had long since bought into the view that we could not solve the problems of transport in Dublin – getting people from A to B, particularly into the city centre and out again – by using roads. It could not be done. We were all agreed on this, sometimes to our political cost. I recall more than one meeting in my constituency at which views were loudly expressed by car users that QBCs were a waste of space and that we should be concentrating instead on widening the roads. All of us in our time have opposed those views and there has been a consensus available to Government.

There has also been available to Government an unprecedented level of resources. Double digit growth in the economy for most of the late 1990s made available resources which were simply never available to any of its predecessors. The fact that much of that money came from the German taxpayer is ironic because the average German is now rather less well-off than the average Irish person, albeit with much better public transport and other infrastructure available to him. There is no excuse for the utterly lamentable position in which the citizens of this city now find themselves. The average Dubliner, if he works in the city centre, will typically spend an hour or more in traffic every morning and another hour in the evening, with all the obvious consequences for his quality of life. It is not simply a matter of inconvenience; significant disadvantage to the economy of this city arises from the gridlock we experience on a daily basis. Surveys have shown that it takes longer in Dublin for goods to be transported from A to B, whether from the ports to the M50 or within the city, than in any other city of comparable size or population in Europe.

Where do we find ourselves now? Ten years after it was first announced, Luas is still behind time, well over budget and causing immeasurable disruption to businesses along the lines which nobody ever envisaged and which the businesses involved were never told about. The DART is still massively under-capacity. I am fortunate enough to live on the DART line, near Killester station. It is not unusual – in fact it is almost a daily experience – for people who arrive at the station between 8.15 a.m. and 9 a.m. not to succeed in getting onto the DART because it is full. We have known for many years that there was an under-capacity. Governments have made announcements about the lengthening of trains too many times to count. The intention to lengthen platforms to accommodate eight-car trains was first announced at least eight years ago, not by this Government or its predecessor, I suspect, but by the Government before that. Yet we are now being told that the DART will have to close at weekends for 18 months in one part of the city or another in order to carry out works which are obviously long since overdue.

Most of us support the implementation of the QBC network, but it too is massively behind time. We have demonstrated our utter incapacity to put in place the necessary planning to ensure that something that seems to be relatively simple happens. The results of the QBC network have been patchy but generally good and they certainly justify the extension of the network. Money was supplied by Government last year for this but was returned because the bodies concerned were incapable of putting together their plans in sufficient time to spend the money. The outturn is woefully inadequate in circumstances in which the work needs to be done quickly.

The metro is the crowning glory in this catalogue of disasters. It is now four years since the Leader of this House, then the Minister for Public Enterprise, announced that the Government had agreed in principle to build a metro system in Dublin on a public private partnership basis. Four years later, none of us has a notion of what Government policy actually is. Certainly, one would be hard pressed to find any Dubliners who believe that the metro system will be in place, for example, ten years from now. Government policy has simply lost any measure of credibility it once had.

It is worth considering in detail the example of the Luas. It a good example of how things have simply not happened. The Luas was first announced by Government in 1994 as part of the Structural Funds round of 1994-99. When the Fianna Fáil-PD Government came to power in 1997, one of the first things it did was to suspend the public inquiry that was then in place so that it could resolve a row between the Government partners, one party of which wanted to put the city centre section underground while the other did not. The consultants reported a year later – a year that was lost to the whole process – and their suggestions were ultimately disregarded by Government. The three lines initially planned soon became two and the city centre area was left in limbo. We still do not know whether it will actually be developed. Close to the end of the process we are left with a fraction of a network, which is not integrated as the lines do not meet and probably will never meet. It does not have the capacity to move anything like the number of people who live along the line and it cannot be converted, in a realistic way within a realistic timetable or at a realistic price, into a metro as proposed in the platform for change at the DTO. It is causing enormous disruption and is costing a fortune.

There is also the utter farce of the Red Cow roundabout where the Government is floundering around, throwing out weekly possible solutions and, clearly, does not have a clue how to deal with it. Three or four weeks ago we were told we could spend €1 billion upgrading the M50. Then we were told the Luas could be put on stilts and later still that the roundabout could be redesigned at a cost of €100 million and that part of the M50 could be upgraded at a cost of €300 million. I do not care what is done if it works. I represent the views of most people in Dublin when I say that. The bottom line is that ten years after we first talked about Luas we do not know what the solution to that problem will be. However, we know that whatever solution is found will almost certainly delay the project beyond its mid-next year end point so that there will be further delay and further diminishing of the service when it eventually becomes available.

I listened with great interest to the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, in the Lower House yesterday. All of us accept that buses will form an important part of public transport in Dublin into the future but I do not have a notion of what is Government policy. In 1999-2000, the Government announced it would introduce a measure of flexibility, liberalisation and deregulation, but would put in place a regulator who would look after standards and ensure everybody got a service. In his contribution in the Lower House yesterday, the Minister did not seem to have a notion of his own policy. He actually used the phrase at one stage that "it was all terribly confusing". His announced policy is to franchise out 25% of the existing routes. We do not know whether he will make Dublin Bus buses available to a private user.

The Minister does not appear to know, but he has informed us that he is talking with the social partners to resolve the matter. If we are to wait for those talks to arrive at a solution, we could be waiting a long time. He does not appear to know whether he wants a regulator for Dublin, the greater Dublin area, regional regulators or whether he wants a regulator at all. This is characteristic of the incompetence, lack of direction and lack of planning we have seen in the Government's policy and approach to public transport in our capital city during the past four years.

I have pleasure proposing a motion which I acknowledge is largely negative. However, its negative thrust is more than adequately justified by the inaction of a Government which appears to have no feeling for what it is at, no notion of where it is going and, certainly, no respect for the citizens of the capital city.

I second the motion.

I start with a quote from Ms Luas Lane, in a recent letter to The Irish Times, in an Irishman's Diary – alias Mr. Kevin Myers. She asks the question: “And why has Ireland made its prime national route less like a Spaghetti Junction and more like macaroni cheese out of a tin?”

The recent news dispatches about the Red Cow roundabout, to which my colleague, Senator McDowell referred, are amusing. However, they are not amusing for all of us who are caught up in the daily traffic jams in Dublin and beyond. To use the words of the Tánaiste, I find the whole thing incredible. In one dispatch, stilts at the Red Cow roundabout are announced. On another day a spaghetti junction is disclosed and more recently there is the €300 million plan for the Red Cow roundabout. All this information is piecemeal. It is as if there is a change every week. I find the whole situation incredible.

Let us take the plans for a spaghetti junction at the Red Cow roundabout. A public consultation procedure by South Dublin County Council and the National Roads Authority took place about two years ago. How could the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, not have known about the plans for a spaghetti junction? Suddenly, the Tánaiste finds the proposals for the Red Cow roundabout incredible. She represents the constituency in which the Red Cow roundabout is located. As a member of the Government and a public representative for the area how could she not have known the position with regard to the roundabout and the plans for the future?

It was a good idea by the Government to set up a Ministry specially for transport. I thought there would have been an integrated and strategic approach to transport plans, but our motion indicates that the reality is different. The Minister for Transport does not appear to have all the information. He appears to be operating from piecemeal and changing information. His desire is to appear dynamic, but he is the opposite and is showing a lack of leadership. The Government and the Minister need to get their acts together in terms of doing something about the transport position. I am sorry the Minister for Transport is not present.

I think the Senator is mixing him up with the Leader.

A point I have made previously in transport debates is that Luas and a metro are important and the Government should get its act together in that regard. When the plans were originally announced the idea from the DTO was that in the meantime, the bus would be used to sort out traffic congestion pending the introduction of Luas-metro. The bus was to be an important part of the overall plan. Similarly, the current rail infrastructure would be used and upgraded. The provision of Luas and the metro should not take as long as has been suggested. Given all the delays, they will take longer than was ever anticipated. Much remains to be done in the meantime. The situation will get much worse—

The Luas will be here next year.

Luas will serve only one small part of the city.

We keep saying it.

Senator Tuffy without interruption, please.

Luas or the metro will not serve the majority of Dubliners for a long time.

The Senator will be requesting that it serve her area as well.

Areas such as those I represent in Lucan will not get the benefit of Luas next year or, perhaps, for another ten or 15 years. We want something to be done about it now. The position will get much worse unless the Government gets its act together on Luas and the metro and unless other measures are taken. There is a need to invest in Dublin Bus and to double the service on the Dublin-Kildare route. There is no confirmation from the Government that it will provide the necessary investment to ensure Iarnród Éireann fulfils its plans to double its service on the Dublin-Kildare route. We have a Department of Transport. The idea was that there would be one overall integrated Department that would solve our transport problems. I ask the Minister to make it what it was meant to be.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann," and substitute the following:

"welcomes the significant progress made in recent years to improve transport infrastructure and public transport services in Dublin and supports the continuing actions being taken by the Government to implement an integrated transport plan for the Greater Dublin Area. In this regard, the Seanad:

(a) endorses the progress made in providing a light rail system for Dublin;

(b) backs the prioritisation of investment in a Quality Bus Network for Dublin;

(c) notes the proposals made by the RPA for the provision of a Metro service for Dublin;

(d) welcomes the progress being made in upgrading the national roads network in the Greater Dublin Area and the Government's commitment to maintaining investment in the national roads programme at a high level;

(e) notes the significant investments being undertaken in the suburban rail network in the Greater Dublin Area, including services on the DART and on the Maynooth line;

and

(f) supports the Minister for Transport's proposals for regulatory reform and restructuring of public transport that will deliver better value for money for the customer and the taxpayer.”.

I welcome the Minister to the House to discuss the current programme of infrastructural development, particularly in the Dublin region. I thank the Labour Party for giving us the opportunity to set out clearly the level of investment that has taken place. While we take much criticism on this side for what has not been done during the past five or six years, this is an area of which we are proud and I am delighted to address the motion.

The Government and indeed its predecessor have developed an integrated transport network that when completed will transform our lives, particularly in this region. When the current work programme is completed we will have a first class transport network that will compare favourably to the best in the world. It has not been without difficulties along the way, however, as Senator McDowell has indicated and Senator Tuffy has talked about; there is a level of inconvenience. There will always be inconvenience associated with development and construction. It is difficult for commuters and residents to sit through the construction phase of these many projects. It is largely due to the fact that the current network has reached saturation point and therefore there is not the extra capacity to allow for an unhindered existence through the period of construction and expansion of the relevant projects. This is clearly due to lack of investment by successive Governments. Senators on this side of the House must share in the responsibility as do Senators on the other side. Regardless of that, the importance of investment in our infrastructure must be recognised. I am proud of the achievements of the current Government and its predecessor, and in particular the commitment to our transport network at a time of relative constraint in our economic circumstances.

We have to look to the future and to recognise the enormous benefits that will accrue to both society and the economy as a result of the current investment programme. I sometimes get annoyed, coming as I do from the midwest, at the level of criticism levelled by colleagues, sometimes on the Fianna Fáil side, about the hardships associated with the many projects under construction, whether it is Luas, the metro, the Dublin Port tunnel or whatever.

The Ennis bypass maybe.

We are talking about the projects on this side. I will get to the Ennis bypass. The Senator need have no worry about that. I get annoyed because I know how grateful we would be in the entire midwest region to suffer the inconvenience people on the eastern side of the country are experiencing. We would be grateful because we know that inherent in that inconvenience would be the recognition that one would reach a point where the difficulties and problems being experienced would ultimately be resolved. That is not the case for us at the minute, unfortunately. We see the necessity to have a programme along the lines set out in the NDP and the national spatial strategy to include many of the projects that would help to bring balanced regional development, as espoused in those two documents, to put in place the vital infrastructure needed. Senator McDowell is right, it would include the Ennis bypass, but not totally. We will not be totally parochial about this. It would also include the road link from Limerick to Galway, the western rail line, a fourth river crossing in Limerick and it would seek to put in place a co-ordinated infrastructure in that region that would include a rail link from Shannon Airport.

I assure the Minister of State and the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, any inconvenience associated with these projects which might qualify for funding over the next few months would be welcomed with open arms. We will be delighted to suffer that inconvenience and I can assure the Minister of State he will not hear me or, hopefully, any of my colleagues complaining. There have been a number of tremendous infrastructural developments on the eastern side of the country, particularly with Luas. No doubt there have been difficult issues associated with a project like that but I would like to believe they have been resolved. Some of them have been resolved in the media, which is not the best place to do it. Nonetheless, the project is progressing relatively well. Significant milestones have been reached of which we are all aware. Two of the train depots are completed and most of the trams for the Sandyford and Tallaght lines are already delivered and in place. A significant amount of the track has been delayed. There were some bottlenecks associated with the laying of the track and that certainly caused tremendous inconvenience for everyone, Members of the Oireachtas included. Bit by bit, however, they are being resolved. The Railway Procurement Agency has a programme for project commencement which the Minister of State has already indicated will see the Tallaght to Connolly line opened by August 2004 and the Sandyford to St. Stephen's Green line opened by June 2004. While there has been a level of frustration over a number of years the end is in sight. There may be potential delays. We are not sure about that. Within the next number of years, however, these projects will be delivered and we will all reap the benefits. It is a difficulty for people at the time but we have to live with it. To use the old cliché, there is no gain without an element of pain and there is no doubt that people are currently suffering an element of pain.

There was some mention of quality bus corridors. Currently there are nine in operation in Dublin, covering about 100 kilometres. The news is so good I am not going to have time to deliver it all, but I am sure my colleagues will. The quality bus corridors are working. A number of statistics are important. From November 2001 to November 2002 the level of usage of the QBCs increased by 16%. As a result there was a decrease of 7% in the amount of car traffic on those routes. That is a positive move and I know the Minister is seeking to have a number of others QBCs in place by 2005. There is now a quality bus network office associated with Dublin City Council. From now on it will be spearheading the introduction of further quality bus corridors.

The metro project will be of huge benefit to this city. Having travelled to a number of other cities, both in Europe and the US over the years, it has become clear that a city such as Dublin has reached a point where it is no longer enough to move people from point to point above ground as the city grows. Given the low density housing in this city it will be necessary to go underground, as is facilitated by the metro. I strongly believe in the metro and encourage the Minister to progress it. The Joint Committee on Transport, on which I and a number of Senators on the other side serve, has seen in great detail the work involved in this.

We may have jumped a bit early in terms of identifying the need for a metro project, but I welcome the kind of information and co-operation taking place between the Minister's office, the Railway Procurement Agency and the Spanish authorities in terms, perhaps, of identifying cheaper methods of delivering the project. This could have implications for the Oireachtas in terms of imminent legislation which will assist in the procurement of land and the delivery of a project in an unprecedented fashion for infrastructural projects of this size. It has been difficult as it is recognised that there has not been a pattern or a history of delivering projects of this nature in Ireland. We are on a learning curve and it is probably unfair to put the blame on the RPA, the Government or whoever. I urge all sides to come together and to come forward with positive ideas to build the transport network we need and ensure we have a world class transport system.

I regret that the Minister is not in the House while I appreciate the presence of the Minister of State, Deputy McDaid. In the light of the public fracas taking place at present between the former Minister for Public Enterprise and current Leader of the Seanad, Senator O'Rourke, and the current Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, it is regrettable he is not in the House. They appear to be attacking each other in the papers. The Leader of the House is calling on the Minister to stop moaning and groaning and to take his finger out and stop blaming her, and he is retaliating. The Leader of the House is saying everything was on target while she was in office and is asking what happened over the last 16 months. She is very clear about who she is blaming and is not mincing her words.

There is such a pool of talent on this side of the House that we can provide our own opposition.

In defence of the Minister, Deputy Brennan, there is the former CIE chairman, Brian Joyce. He informed Senator O'Rourke in 2000 that the Luas was heading towards the €1 billion mark, so her story does not add up either. There is grave confusion within the Fianna Fáil Party between past and present. Unfortunately, while Fianna Fáil Members argue among themselves, the public is suffering. The Luas system is already a year behind schedule. I remind the Minister of the famous advertisement which advertised the first train for 2003 and every five minutes afterwards. It will be 2004 at the earliest before the Luas is up and running. Even then there is no guarantee that it will run according to plan. We could be talking about a system that can only cater for about 10% of peak time traffic.

It is vital, as proposed in the Labour Party motion, to have one transportation policy unit in charge of Dublin. There are far too many transportation areas in Dublin. It is a case of too many chefs in the kitchen resulting in too little food being cooked.

The Minister for Transport who has been in office 16 months has already been attacked publicly by his predecessor. The public is getting tired and weary of him. He is a good man to issue press releases, provide spin and look good. Unfortunately, so far he has not delivered. The penalty point system has only had limited success. We were told in this House that a dedicated traffic corps would be set up to monitor the system but that has now been scrapped. Unfortunately, the penalty points are not as effective as they should be as a result of that decision.

The Minister announced he would get provisional driving licence holders off the road. It was a fantastic announcement. However, he provided no extra resources to Ballina, where licences are processed, and the result is chaos. In my constituency of Carlow there is now a ten month waiting list for a driving test. It is worse in other parts of the country. There is also the crazy scenario of huge variations in the driving test pass rates around the country. The first time application pass rate in Athlone is 43% while in Shannon, County Clare, the pass rate is almost 70%. Something must be done in this regard. Why is there such a huge variation in the pass rate and in the waiting times for tests?

Recently we had the fiasco with the DART where the Minister was not even aware of the massive disruption that would take place as a result of weekend suspensions of the services. He admitted under cross-examination in the other House that he was not fully aware of the plans. Why can work not be carried out at night, at off-peak times or at weekends while still maintaining some level of service? I cannot understand why everything here must come to a stop at night with any infrastructural project. It is unsatisfactory and we need to get the country moving. Our infrastructure is appalling. It is a ringing indictment of this Government that while in Government at a time of economic boom it did not plan ahead and foresee the difficulties the boom would bring in terms of transport.

Earlier today I spoke about the possible abuse of the word independent in this House. The word expert is definitely abused. An expert is somebody who has great knowledge in his or her field and is reasonably competent and able to predict what will happen in that field. Mr. Owen Keegan told us lately that the level of traffic predicted for Dublin in 2016 is already here. We are 13 years ahead of target. Who were the so-called experts who predicted that level? If I professed myself a transport expert and got my targets wrong by 13 years I would be mortified, I would hang my head and have to go back and learn new formulae because the formulae I used were certainly not working.

There is great confusion about the size of vehicles that can use the Dublin Port tunnel. Until the tunnel opens we do not know what percentage of trucks will use it.

This week in the Dáil the Taoiseach was forced to clarify the record of the House. The Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy McDaid, might do likewise. When he was here during the previous session I raised the issue of the Red Cow roundabout and explained the fiasco we were facing with the Luas and the extra traffic. I was told there was no problem as the experts had agreed there was no difficulty with traffic. They would see how the current system would work. The so-called experts said everything would be fine. Already, before the Luas has even opened, the Minister for Transport has been embarrassed into a climbdown. He has talked about putting the line on stilts and now we have a €300 million plan to upgrade the M50 and the Red Cow roundabout. Where are those experts, who were they and how much were they paid? How can they call themselves experts when they are so clearly wrong?

Common sense certainly, did not prevail. It was blatantly obvious to anybody who used the Red Cow roundabout that it could not take all the traffic. To introduce Luas trains every three minutes on top of the existing traffic was a recipe for disaster. Even allowing for nominal yearly growth in traffic would lead to interesting times at the roundabout. To expect people to cross over three lanes with a filter light was optimistic in the extreme.

Fine Gael will have no problem supporting the Labour Party motion tonight. The Luas lines in Dublin are a disgrace. A friend of mine who works in the Harcourt Street area had both entrances to his business blocked off by the construction work. It is unbelievable that people take part in works that go way over time and budget. Will the Minister of State clarify whether the original intention was that the Luas would be constructed in 100 meter sections and for the section to be dug up, work carried out and then completed? Instead we seem to have the streets dug up for miles, no timeframe and certainly no hurry on the contractors to get the work done. I cannot understand how the project went so over budget, from €300 million to almost €1 billion, with no questions being asked. Surely if contractors get a contract they should agree to undertake the work and if they go over time the costs should go to them and not the taxpayer.

In regard to the metro, the credibility of the Government, the NRA and the RPA in particular has been called into question. Either that or the members of the Joint Committee on Transport are the best parliamentarians in the world. When the committee called in the RPA and quizzed it on its projected costs for the metro, the costs were reduced by about €400 million. That is either a compliment to the competence of the Joint Committee on Transport or it is a ringing indictment of the incompetence of the RPA in getting its projections so wrong.

Fine Gael supports the Labour Party motion and will not vote with the Government amendment.

The Minister of State has been here a few times during the past 12 months and I welcome him here again to hear our discussion on transport. I plead with him to take into account that the Progressive Democrats believe there are too many agencies interlinking with the various local authorities in the transport area in Dublin. There are breakdowns in communication which lead to lengthy time spans for decisions to be made. The DTO is a policy driven body which issues policy to the various organisations. Often that policy is not taken into account and the strategy the office might propose is put to one side.

I ask the Minister to consider investment in rail, roads and underground as a transport system for Dublin. He should not just look at the argument that we should have a roads, rail or tram based transport system. There must be a link between all three. For too long we have had the argument of one versus the other and for far too long we have been caught up in a long decision making process as to which way we would go.

We hear much talk about the Red Cow roundabout and the traffic on the N7. I would like to bring it to the attention of the House that the peak traffic at the Red Cow roundabout is equivalent to the off-peak traffic at Scott's roundabout on the Navan Road, the N3. These are the NRA figures and should be a cause of concern for the way Dublin is developing. They would also be a grave cause of concern in regard to the imminent decision, which I hope will be soundly based, as to whether to upgrade the M50 to three lanes in both directions. That decision will come before the Minister very soon. Any work will cause grave disruption. Given the problems caused by Luas, people in those areas, especially the commuting public, will have to be told at an early stage what is involved in future transport networks in Dublin and the pain they will have to undergo. We cannot make any more decisions without telling the public in advance what is required. We need only recall the hysteria about the weekend closure of the southside DART service. If the DART has to be upgraded then so be it, the work is being carried out only at weekends and there is an alternative system of buses in place. We will have to take some pain over time. As the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, said, we will have to give Luas a chance and see what happens. The overall benefit that Luas will bring will be equivalent only to the numbers carried on the 46A QBC at peak times. The extension of Luas to the docklands is worthwhile but future extensions should be deferred to ensure we see the merits of extending Luas further.

The most important item for the Minister to consider is further investment in the rail network. The suburban rail network coming into Dublin from Kildare and Navan is under-resourced. The existing line needs only further signalling, platform extensions and extra carriages. It is not a case of reinventing the wheel as the capacity is available on the line. These improvements will not cost as much as one might think when one looks at our future traffic congestion. Compared to the rest of Europe the level of traffic congestion here is imponderable. No city in Europe of comparable size is now operating without a metro, except Luxembourg whose population is only 80,000. I urge the Minister to make an early decision on the metro. Last summer I had the pleasure of visiting Professor Melis in Madrid. When one looks at what has been achieved there in the last eight years, with over 100 kilometres of tunnelling and a metro in place, one has to ask serious questions of the systems and methods used in to do business in Ireland.

We have to question the costs forecast by the RPA as the taxpayer cannot bear them. The money will not be there. For those reasons we must look at the issue of competition for the metro contract. Who can do it most cheaply and most efficiently? We must look at the European experience, not just at Irish or English experiences. Madrid offers a reasonable example which works. Professor Melis has visited this country and gave the benefit of his knowledge to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport. He is available to continue sharing his knowledge with us. I hope we will have an Irish metro at Madrid prices, not an Irish metro at Irish prices.

Hear, hear.

We have to continue investing in our rail service across Dublin and in a metro. We will not get traffic moving freely without a metro, given the levels of car ownership and employment in the city. We should not have to wait seven or ten years for this. Building the metro in Madrid caused far less disruption there than building Luas has done here. Our systems and our methods to date have been found wanting. I do not know whether consultants are to blame, as Senator Browne said and as Professor Melis believes. He says we have too many consultants, consulting among themselves and with local authorities, and that does not allow for quick decision making on behalf of Government. For those reasons the metro is essential as is further investment in rail and in Dublin Bus. To have those investments we must ensure our unions and the management of CIE deliver reform with that future investment.

Can we take it that the Senator will support the motion?

I would like to share the last few minutes of my time with Senator Norris, with the permission of the House.

The Senator has the permission of the House.

Is Senator Morrissey going to support the motion? It will be very interesting to see how the Government side votes on this matter tonight because there seem to be different views on it.

There is no doubt we are in a mess on this issue. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy McDaid, who is an old friend of mine and I am always happy to hear what he has to say. However, I have the impression that the Minister has funked coming in here to debate this with his predecessor, Senator O'Rourke. We would have enjoyed hearing their views. I do not know what he is afraid of. They could speak at different times. The Cathaoirleach might mention this to the Minister because it is upsetting and it takes away somewhat from the debate. Nevertheless, I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy McDaid, and look forward to hearing what he has to say.

The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, survived.

There is always a double-think on the question of traffic. As a starting point there should be one person in charge of transport. There are too many bodies. If I had a choice in the morning I would nominate the one person who has achieved everything he has set out to do, the much reviled Mr. Keegan. He has always delivered exactly what he said he would, he has taken on those who criticised him and has always been prepared. When he set up the Donnybrook quality bus corridor the people in RTE were appalled – they get upset about that kind of thing outside their front door. He offered them bets that he would have increased usership and improved the time within months. The recent survey, to which Senator Dooley referred, has just proved that point.

The problem with Mr. Keegan's job is that his remit extends only to the city area. He has done his part of what needs to be done but it does not fit in with anyone else. A good example is the park and ride scheme. The quality bus corridors are working very well but they are no good if people cannot leave their cars at their starting point. There is no place to park where corridors begin in Finglas, Blanchardstown, Stillorgan or Malahide, and I could go on. If park and ride facilities, which were part of the plan into which Mr. Keegan was feeding, were there, it would make life much easier. There is no doubt that a bus can bring someone into the city far quicker than a private car and more people are using it in that way. If someone is coming along the N3 who wants to use the quality bus corridor when there is a bus from Ashbourne or from Finglas, what can he or she do with his or her car? Senator Morrissey made the same point about lack of co-ordination.

The other example is the port tunnel. Will we ban trucks that cannot fit into the tunnel from the roads, a decision I would support? It is a great idea but I do not believe the Government will do that. Those trucks are not allowed into many parts of Europe but we will build the tunnel to comply with the current regulations and they will just come back onto the streets, or somewhere else, and continue on their way. When the port tunnel opens it will bring another 8,000 trucks a day onto the M50.

Having regard to the current state of the M50 and the Red Cow roundabout, where will the 8,000 additional trucks go from the M1/N1 at that stage? Similarly, in relation to the Luas lines, there is no integrated system. One has only to look at a map of Dublin, showing the DART and Luas lines – we will leave the proposed metro aside for the moment as nobody knows where it will go – to realise that none of them connect. There is a gap between the two Luas lines and neither of them meet the DART line. How can one have fluid transportation and movement in that situation? It just cannot be done.

I would prefer to spend €300 million on getting the two Luas lines to meet, rather than discussing what to do about the Red Cow roundabout. I do not believe there will be any action in relation to the Red Cow roundabout. Subject to correction, I believe I heard the Minister for Transport give three different costings as to what he might do there, on a good day. Whatever may be done in that regard, there will still be toll booths further up the road – we should get rid of those.

We are facing a complete mess, taking account of the situation with the Luas lines, the lack of co-ordination between the Luas and the DART, the lack of park and ride facilities in relation to quality bus corridors and the complete lack of clarity as to the effect of the Dublin port tunnel on other traffic in the area. The latter project will make matters worse in many ways. It will do what it sets out to do in the immediate underground section, but it will cause trouble further back.

Incidentally, I have no objection to the proposed work on the DART system at weekends. That is the only time it can be done and politicians should be supportive in that regard. It is not a Government issue, one way or another. The real issue is the lack of proper long-term planning. We should have realised a long time ago that we needed longer platforms and more carriages.

I hand over now to the acknowledged expert and spokesperson on transport in the Independent group, Senator Norris, who has made this his brief.

In thanking Senator O'Toole, I deny that I am an expert but I am certainly interested in the topic. We are fortunate in having such an excellent Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, including Senators Dooley, Morrissey and Browne, in which excellent work is done on a non-partisan basis. Unfortunately, when issues come to the House, they become partisan.

While I will vote with the Opposition at the end of this debate, I am not convinced that, given the opportunity, it would have made a better fist of the situation. I have been in the House long enough to know the rigmaroles which have gone on. Let us please concentrate on the key issues.

I am glad the metro idea was supported on all sides as it is critically important to the welfare of this city. I particularly support the Labour Party's comment on the failure of the Government's Railway Procurement Agency to set out a coherent plan for the provision of the metro system. That agency must be given a kick and told to get on with it. I am greatly concerned that the Government's amendment weakens the position it appears to take with regard to the metro. It simply "notes the proposals made by the RPA for the provision of a Metro service for Dublin". That is not good enough.

During the summer, I read a book by Gore Vidal about American foreign policy and the creation of a new American empire. At one point, he said: "The sweetest words in the English language are ‘I told you so.' " That is not true – those are the bitterest words in the English language. Five years ago in this House, I outlined what would happen if the Luas proposals went ahead as they were then scheduled and spoke of the need for an underground rail system. I do not gloat over that and I do not want to say "I told you so". I wish I was in a position to point to a metro system being developed and say "There you are". Those would be the three sweetest words in the English language if, through co-operation, we can bring a project to fruition and fulfilment.

With regard to the Luas, a recent newspaper report highlighted the fact that 2,800 km. of railway were built in Australia for the same price as the Luas is costing us. That is astonishing. I acknowledge that we reduced the cost and I lay a little claim to that – I know that nobody else will give me any credit for it so I will do so on my own behalf. Professor Melis has been much quoted in this context. Over a number of years, I worked very closely with Cormac Rabbitte and Rudy Monaghan, who really deserve a statue to commemorate their contribution to recognising the defects in the Luas and the need for the metro, which they articulated very capably.

I arranged a meeting between Cormac Rabbitte and Deputy Eoin Ryan, the excellent chairman of our transport committee, who established contact between Professor Melis and the Cabinet sub-committee. The Minister for Transport went to Madrid to see the system in operation there, including a form of head-to-head contract under which the various elements were split up. Over a period of 18 months, work proceeded on sections of the project, rather than giving a single contract to one contractor. All sections proceeded simultaneously, working round the clock.

It gives me no joy to say "I told you so", nor do I particularly wish to do so. However, the record of this House speaks for itself. We foresaw these situations over five years ago in terms of identifying the factors which would make the Luas more costly and the issue of the interface between dedicated rail transport and private vehicles. All of that was pointed out, but we now have the situation of the mad cow roundabout, or whatever is the appropriate description. The Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, said it is incredible that this situation should happen. It is a dreadful indictment of our processes.

In my mailbox today, and, no doubt, those of other Members, there was a copy of a report on the proposal to put the Luas on stilts at the Red Cow roundabout. Was it not rather late to commission that report on 27 August 2003? The project has been in the planning stages for a long time and the inbuilt contradictions had been pointed out. Yet, it was not until the end of August that a report was commissioned with a view to rectifying the situation.

In supporting the Labour Party on this motion, I hope I am not doing so in a divisive way. I look forward to working with my excellent colleagues from all sides of the House. As one of the older Members of the House, it gives me some heart that we have such intelligent, talented and committed young people on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, working together in a constructive way.

Without repeating the entire argument, it is essential that a metro system is installed. Senator Browne said it can only deal with 10% – the figure is actually less than 10%, as we pointed out five years ago – but let us try to go ahead. The metro is so important and essential to the welfare of this city. I appeal to Senators on the Government side to express their disappointment that there is not a commitment to the metro. Nobody can describe "noting proposals" as a commitment – the situation has gone far beyond that stage. Those on the Government side must ensure that we live up to this commitment. It is cheaper in the long run, as has been stated over many years.

In the European Union, we have free movement of goods and services. If we cannot obtain a decent deal from the Irish construction industry, let us advertise it all over Europe. If necessary, let us ask Professor Melis to bring over a team to do the job for us, if we are incapable of doing it ourselves at the right price. The costings for this project are absurd. In a radio interview, the head of this operation mentioned a figure of the order of €4.8 billion, of which the construction cost was only €1.2 billion. When he was asked how the other €3.6 billion was accounted for, he referred to contingencies, overruns and insurance. If insurance and contingencies are to cost three times as much as the cost of construction, we are in an Alice in Wonderland situation. Let us get back to reality, with the excellent talent we have in this House and push forward for the metro.

In welcoming the Minister of State to the House, I point out that he is a regular user of public transport in the Dublin area, including the DART and the train to Balbriggan. That is very much to his credit.

Hear, hear.

I am proud to support a Government, including this Government and its predecessor from 1997, which, on a sustained basis, is putting so much investment into transport, including public transport. That was not the case in the past. Senator Browne referred to lack of foresight. In the 19 point programme put forward by Fine Gael and the Labour Party at the start of the 1997 election, one will not find any mention of transport or infrastructure.

If one looks at the Book of Estimates one will see there was no Exchequer money for public transport, although there was some European Union money. That situation has been totally transformed and much of the credit for that goes to our Leader, Senator O'Rourke, when she was the Minister for Public Enterprise with responsibility for transport. She will go down in the history books as having pioneered the rail safety programme which is vital to the maintenance of the network. I give credit also to the current Minister and the public is giving him credit also, as shown by the opinion polls, for his energy, commitment and application to the problems involved.

The quality bus corridors are excellent. I have used the ones on the Stillorgan road and the buses arrive very regularly, but their limitation is that they are a road-based solution competing with other road space. The QBCs are definitely part of the solution for a long time to come.

Huge capacity improvements are taking place currently including the DART, the Luas and so on. Much of the Opposition motion appears to be taken up with complaining that we are breaking eggs while making the omelette. Inevitably, there will be disruption but an enormous amount of work is under way and we are seeing the fruits of it. For example, the M1 to Dundalk is terrific and it is something that is actually complete. While it is correct that many projects are not joined up at present, they will be much more joined up in three or four years' time.

I am a great believer in the Luas. It will be a marvellous facility when it is opened. I hope that coming up to the Red Cow roundabout, for example, people will find a station or stop to leave their cars and come into town by public transport and pick up their cars at the end of the day. There are problems at the Red Cow roundabout and they have nothing to do with the Luas. The problem is that we do not have enough experience of trams. In a city like Vienna, trams go through some of the main streets, wait for the lights and so on. There is no extra disruption involved.

Senator O'Toole, myself and others discussed this matter in the Committee on Finance and the Public Service and the aspect that would make the biggest difference to Dublin transport currently in that area would be if we were to buy out national toll roads, remove the toll booths and so on. It is not good transport policy to have tolls on the periphery of cites. Paris has tolls on the cross-country routes but they do not have them in the city. We should give serious consideration to putting electronic tolling in place fairly quickly. If we have €200 million to spend on one area, that might make a bigger contribution than stilts, graded separations, spaghetti junctions or whatever are the different options.

The metro is an important project although I would prefer a public transport system for Dublin that puts an emphasis on Luas rather than metro. I would like to see the metro supporting Luas rather than the other way around. If, for any reason, the Government decides it cannot currently afford the metro, there is the alternative of the fixed rail over-ground link to Dublin Airport but whatever is decided, there should be a rail link, be it metro or overhead line, to the airport by 2007. I urge the Minister to stick to that proposal.

Mention is made in the Opposition motion about the southern ring road but the delays in that are largely due to Carrickmines. I looked up Peter Harbison's National Antiquities and Monuments of Ireland and Carrickmines Castle is not even mentioned. If we are going to spend large sums of money on environmental improvements and so on, is it necessarily the areas identified by protesters that we want to spend the money on? The Taoiseach referred to the snails, the swans and all the rest of it, and he had a point.

The final point I wish to make is a broader one. We must avoid becoming so immersed – Senator Dooley made this point – in the problems of the greater Dublin area that we lose sight of the larger picture, which is the national spatial strategy. Dublin is not the only city in this country. Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford also need public transport investment. For the €200 million or €300 million talked about to fix the Red Cow roundabout problem, the problems of Cork, Waterford, Galway and Limerick could be fixed in one go. Something that causes some resentment throughout the country is the fact that money appears to be no object when it comes to Dublin but projects like, for example, the Midleton line in Cork has been ongoing for 20 years without a decision. Unless something is done, the same will be the case with Limerick, Shannon and so on. We need a balanced national transport policy that also looks beyond the problems of the greater Dublin area.

I support the motion. Everybody in this House should support it because, as we are hearing from those on the Government side, they support the idea of providing a good public transport system and they are only splitting hairs in opposing the motion.

I want to pick up on something Senator Mansergh said. We all agree that we need a good public transport system throughout the country. I live in Dublin but come from Cork. We are here tonight to talk about Dublin and we must recognise that we have a huge population in Dublin and this is where many businesses want to invest their money. We saw an example of that recently with a company called eBay. The Government offered that company huge incentives to locate in the countryside but eBay decided it wanted to locate in Dublin. That is the reality. Dublin is the centre for many businesses. It is close to the airport and to ports. We have to strike an imbalance, so to speak, when we are dealing with the infrastructure for Dublin because we are so congested that something will give. My fear is that many of the businesses which have located here from overseas will vacate the country because it is so difficult for them to move about the city.

From the Dublin Chamber of Commerce we hear that congestion costs the economy €1 billion and costs businesses €650 million. A total of 420,000 people commute to the city by bus, train or car but 70% of the people travel by car. The reasons for that are simple. The public transport system is not adequate to cope with the numbers involved.

In my area we have the Connolly-Maynooth line, which has been upgraded. We have seen improvements, for which we are grateful, but the line is not adequate to cope with the number of people who wish to use it. For example, we have no park and ride facility, which has been referred to by others. There is only one park and ride facility beside Clonsilla railway station. No other station has such a facility. We have no park and ride facilities outside the Dublin boundary where we should have them to get people out of their cars before they reach Blanchardstown. The same can be said for the rest of the city. It is a disgrace that we have not developed park and ride facilities. If we are serious about getting people out of cars, we have to provide those facilities for them.

Members on the Government side must be really embarrassed about Luas because the way it is being dealt with is a farce.

We will be very proud of it and so will the Senator.

We talk about the length of time it should take to deliver a system, whether it is Luas or metro. Senator Morrissey referred to the model in Madrid which we should follow.

In 1997 the city of Montpellier in France was developing its Luas type system. It is up and running, yet we are still struggling with ours. There is something seriously wrong and Members on the Government side have referred to that. When we talk about the problems Luas will bring, it is not just the Red Cow roundabout. There will be serious problems on the north quays with traffic coming in from west Dublin through the Phoenix Park. Luas will cross the quays from Heuston Station every three minutes. That will cause major problems unless we get people out of their cars. However, there is nothing coming on stream in the west of Dublin to get people out of their cars.

As I said, the Connolly-Maynooth line has improved but it is not adequate. The Minister of State has heard me say that before and he will say he takes the train and there is plenty of room on it. There is not room on that train during morning and evening peak times. People have been known to faint on it. Pregnant women taking that train must stand for the duration of the journey and feel unwell when they get off it. It is a Third World service.

We need to develop the Spencer Dock terminus for the Maynooth and Sligo routes and we must have an interchange in Phibsboro. In the longer term, the proposed new rail tunnel linking Connolly and Heuston stations should go through the south inner city thereby creating a circular line connecting the central rail stations and key locations in between. We must invest in the signalling system between Connolly and Pearse Street stations to increase the number of trains coming through at peak times. These measures are essential and it will take years to get these things done at the present rate.

The programme for Government stated that there would be integrated ticketing between bus, rail and DART stations and smart card technology but we have seen no sign of that. These are essential things which are taken for granted in most other European cities. The programme for Government also stated that the metro for Dublin would be developed on a public private partnership basis making the maximum use of private finance and achieving a link to Dublin Airport by 2007. Like Senator Mansergh, I hope there will be a link to the airport by 2007 and that there will be a metro.

When we discussed where the national stadium would be located some time ago – the discussion has not been completed – and when it was proposed to locate it in the Dublin 15 area, the carrot being handed out at the time was that the area would get the metro if it took the stadium. Even if we had got the stadium there is no way this metro would have been provided by 2007 given how long it has taken to provide the Luas lines. There is much work to do. The Progressive Democrats seem to be very much in favour of the motion put down by the Labour Party and I would like to see it support it.

I am delighted to see the Minister of State. Some Senators said he would not take on any issue or be confrontational. I have never seen him shy away from confrontation on any issue he believes should be confronted. The issue under discussion is Dublin transport services and how we can have an integrated plan for the greater Dublin area. I am delighted the Opposition has given us this opportunity. It has allowed us to make our views known and to state how good we are.

We asked the Minister to come in.

Senator Terry and I sat on many benches in the old Dublin County Council when we discussed the southern cross route. Her party and mine have been in Government on different occasions over the last 20 years but, of course, her party did nothing wrong. Those in Opposition think they are geniuses and that we cannot get it right.

Is Senator Ormonde listening to her leader?

Which party came up with the proposal for Luas?

Mr. "Fix It" is sitting across the table. Those opposite do things beautifully but we are no good. That is what they are saying.

I hope Senator Ormonde is on stilts this evening.

I am not. Senator Terry is assuming she is more knowledgeable than perhaps I am on many transport issues.

I would never suggest that.

That is all I am saying. The M50 came on stream in the early 1980s when I happened to be on South Dublin County Council. I do not know what party Senator Terry was in at that stage, so I cannot say where she stood on any issue.

Senator Ormonde's memory must not be very good.

For approximately 20 years everything was done to try to put the M50 on the map – it has taken that length of time.

It is not finished yet.

I know, but is it our fault or is it the fault of the Senator's party? Whose fault is it?

Senator Ormonde's party has been in Government for longer, so she can afford to—

Senator Terry stood up and was so self-opinionated on how right the Opposition was and how wrong the Government was that I began to think this is crazy thinking and that we cannot—

Has Senator Ormonde not been listening to her colleagues this evening?

There is no perfect solution. I would like the world to be perfect. I am not perfect; I do not know whether I am saying the right or wrong thing but at least I can say I am doing my best, as our Government is, to get an integrated plan for the greater Dublin area. That is what the Government is trying to do and the plan is on its way. We are not negative. I want to be positive. Why would I want to be a whinger? There are too many whingers. I want to be able to say the Luas is coming on stream.

The Opposition was in Government between 1994 and 1997 when the big question was why we could not extend the platforms in stations as far as Greystones and beyond Skerries. Those opposite were in Government. Why did they not bring in the extended platforms at that stage? The DART is chock-a-block during rush hour every evening. One would not be able to get on unless one queued for an hour, particularly in the Sandymount area where I have tried to get on but it was impossible. Extra carriages are needed, although I am glad to say we have increased the number of carriages. Capacity has been increased by over 50% in the last three years, so we are trying. It is not a success story yet but I want it to be one.

Of course, there are faults. We do not have an integrated system or an integrated bus system throughout Dublin. The situation is crazy in pockets of the city. However, we have bus corridors which are working well. There is a fabulous one on the Stillorgan Road and I would never use a car coming in on that route. However, when it started to operate, there was considerable opposition to it.

It was the same with the DART.

The DART came on stream about 15 years ago but it took years for it to get off the ground. I do not blame the Opposition for that. It was not its fault that it could not get it off the ground when in Government. It is not our fault when things go wrong because we have problems getting things off the ground. I welcome the Taoiseach's proposal to establish a national infrastructure board which will consider the common good when trying to progress matters in relation to the national infrastructure, including the roads network. This is long overdue.

The M50 is a great success. As Senator Terry knows, it used to be called the ring road. It is almost completed and has reached Dundrum. The next stage is being held up but when it is completed, it will link up with the N11 and the airport road. It was a superb achievement to get it off the ground. Nobody anticipated that the Celtic tiger would roar to the extent that there are four or five cars to each household. We all know young people use their cars rather than buses. We have the problem of incorporating thinking on public transport as well as introducing a link between public and private modes of transport, which has to come into play.

We also have to make sure that the links in the outer suburban areas work. We have got that very wrong in the bus network outside the greater Dublin area. That is not working and I do not know why. I am always fighting for that, locally, in an effort to get a network of buses east to west. That is not working, but I do not know where it is falling down.

There are pitfalls and I would be the first to point out to the Minister where he is slipping. However, the overall vision is what I am interested in. We must ask how we can fast track this to the extent that cars will be removed from the roads to facilitate the working of the public and private transport system in the greater Dublin area, implement the Dublin Transportation Initiative bus corridors and have the Luas project up and running. The line from Sandyford to town is almost up and running, as well as the line from Tallaght to Connolly Station. That work is beginning to move.

We have a long way to go but we are trying. We have an overall vision. Up to now it has not been working as well as we would like, but the M50 is nearing completion. The metro is being reappraised at present to evaluate cost effectiveness and those proposals are due to go to the Cabinet shortly. Matters are progressing and the Minister should keep moving these projects as fast as he can to give quality of life to the people of Dublin.

Four years ago, it took people in the area I represent three hours to get to work in the morning. I received many telephone calls at 9 a.m. about it. Now, they sail into town as a result of the completion of the ring road. Things are working not absolutely as desired at present, but in four or five years we will have an increased quality of life that everybody in the greater Dublin area will enjoy.

There are a number of reasons for somebody based 160 miles from Dublin intervening in this debate, as I am doing now. For a variety of reasons over the last year, I have had to drive to Dublin virtually every week and, as a result, I have come to realise that Dublin's traffic is in an appalling mess.

When I was a child living in south Kildare, when most cars could not exceed 40 mph and the roads were infinitely worse than they are now, one could drive from my home town of Athy to anywhere in Dublin with the assumption that it would take no more than an hour. Now we have motorways, bypasses and ring-roads, a point on which Senator Ormonde was eloquent, and it takes two hours.

When I first moved to Cork it took three hours to get from Cork to Newlands Cross and a further half hour to get anywhere else I wanted to be in Dublin. It now takes three and a quarter hours to get to Newlands Cross and an hour to get to wherever one wants to be in Dublin. That is by car, after some of this provision has been made.

If one is an unfortunate person from the country heading in the direction of Dublin Airport one's shock only begins with the "mad cow" roundabout, which seems to have been designed – I do not often quote Kevin Myers – to guarantee the maximum upset to the maximum number of people coming into and going out of Dublin. I have no idea which genius decided that so many major roads out of and into Dublin should all coincide in one inadequate junction. However, somebody did and I have a suspicion I know which Department took the decision to underinvest in that roundabout. It was probably not the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or the Department of Transport. I am sure the geniuses in the Department of Finance, who are not accountable to anybody, whose performance is not measured by anybody and who are not under any benchmark of any form, decided that the traffic expectations that are now the reality were unrealistic and decided we did not need what turned out to be needed.

If one manages to get beyond that roundabout one meets the Westlink. If ever there was an exercise in ideological nonsense it was the decision to make the most critical link on the northern loop of the M50 a toll bridge. No matter how many explanations the operators of that bridge try to produce, the fundamental problem on the M50 between the Red Cow roundabout and Dublin Airport is that there is not sufficient capacity to handle the number of people who are required to slow down and pay tolls. However, they do not stop at the ideological nonsense of forcing people to pay for something that should have been provided by the taxpayer. They add to it by not telling people until they are at the tolls how much they have to pay.

If one comes off the M50, as most people going to Dublin Airport from the country do, one sees a vague sign saying "toll ahead." When one gets closer to it, one discovers there is a way of paying without having to look for change, but at that stage one is in whichever queue one happens to get into because nobody gave the information one needed beforehand. Nobody on the whole M50 thought of telling anybody anything, confirming my view that my profession of engineering is very taken with large constructs but not very good at thinking of the people who have to use them.

Those who created that structure put up a big sign saying "autopay", or whatever it is, but when one gets closer, one finds a handwritten sign, stating "all vehicles through this lane", at which stage one changes rapidly into another lane at the risk of colliding with a motorist behind who has better eyesight. I wonder about the people who organise these things. It is not relevant to Dublin, but I heard my colleague Senator Hayes describe coming from the North to join the new motorway outside Dundalk only to find that they will not take sterling.

That is wrong.

How far does one have to go to be unhelpful to road users in doing things like that?

Ridiculous.

I go around the M50 sometimes in desperation, trying to avoid coming in on the main, direct route. Therefore, I enter the M50, turn right and come in through Templeogue. On the main road from Clondalkin to the M50 roundabout there is a big sign telling one to take the right-hand lane if turning right, that is, going to the M50. Once in that lane, one discovers that the construction of the Luas has closed off the lane which the main signpost tells one to take if one wants to get onto the M50. Who plans those things? That is the fundamental problem with this country and this city's traffic. People are planning grand constructs without thinking about the implications and the impact on ordinary citizens. One can go through this to the point of tedium.

The current policy about the M50 which changes from week to week, from spaghetti junction to stilts, is bad enough. However, newspaper reports suggest that the National Roads Authority and the Railway Procurement Agency have an occasional semaphore exchange of vague intentions when they should be working hand in glove. If they are incapable of doing so, it is the responsibility of the Minister who will not come to this House to talk about it. If they cannot work out an agreed coherent position, they should be made to do so or be fired. The idea that two agencies are discussing the most difficult roundabout in Dublin through occasional communication with one another sums up all that is contained in the Labour Party motion. The Government amendment says no more than that it is doing more than zero and that, therefore, it is very good. However, the citizens of this country and city deserve a proper performance which has not yet materialised.

I give my full support to this motion. We wait with bated breath to see how Senator Morrissey votes and hope to see him support the motion given his contribution in its favour.

How can a Government, which presents for our consideration a national spatial strategy, national development plan and the Dublin Transportation Office and Department of Public Enterprise document, A Platform for Change, with the accompanying implication of transport cohesion, ignore or not have the spatial intelligence or foresight to consider and put in place a coherent and viable transport strategy for our capital city?

While there is no denying that Ireland as a whole needs and must have major improvements to its transport infrastructure, the general public and particularly those residing, working and visiting Dublin are losing faith in the Government's ability to provide this essential development. We are currently lost in a maze of disconnected and seemingly dead-end transport projects. The much published and self-congratulatory national development plan of 1999 contained plans for dual carriageways from Dublin to all major cities and the Luas tram system in the capital.

However, the Government has already admitted that its plans for Dublin were as inadequate as they now seem to be. I hope I am not being prophetic in attempting to cover the Government's tracks. In their amendment to this motion, Senators Dooley, Ormonde and Mansergh had the audacity to endorse the progress of Luas despite the assurances of the Minister for Transport that aspects of the Luas system are a mess and that it would be better to build a city-wide rail system completely underground. I am surprised at the Leader tabling an amendment to this motion, given her attitude towards the Minister which is in the public domain, namely, that if she were still Minister for Public Enterprise, she would have righted the problem.

The Luas project has been described by former Fine Gael Taoiseach, Garret FitzGerald, as "an unmitigated disaster". Surely this is no understatement when describing a project that is more than twice over budget.

Is it, therefore, an overstatement?

The project is totally behind schedule and has two unconnected lines that cannot possibly link up with any future metro system. I am surprised Senator Mansergh is laughing. Perhaps he is laughing at himself and his earlier statements.

From the time Luas was first discussed, it was apparent that a metro system would offer a more practical and ultimately more cost effective long-term solution to the Dublin's out of control traffic and transportation problems. However, following the major disruption that laying the Luas tracks has brought to Dublin streets, they are to be dug up again before Christmas for testing a metro rail system which has not even received Cabinet approval. This is despite the fact that Harcourt Street and Abbey Street have already been dug up for over two years. The Australians built a 2,800 kilometre long railway system for exactly the same price as the 23 kilometre Luas system not only ahead of schedule but under budget.

It is easy when one is laying track across a desert.

The Government agreed to build Luas for €300 million; it is now costing six times that amount. Will this affect spending on other transport infrastructure developments?

The Dublin-Sligo line which passes through my constituency is in a dreadful state of repair and has been underfunded for years.

The line has been greatly improved.

One need only examine what is happening on the Galway-Athlone-Dublin line to see that it is underfunded.

The Senator ought to remember the Building on Reality report which recommended no more investment in railways.

There are several other lines which should be developed if the Government got its priorities right. There should be a central line for the midlands. The old rail line which linked Athlone and Mullingar should be redeveloped since it would be invaluable for the infrastructure of the midlands.

As a vague sop to the taxpayer, the Taoiseach announced a national infrastructure board to fast track major infrastructure projects. Without supporting legislation, this is just what it appears – a sop which will take years to come on stream. It is another empty Government promise without substance or basis in reality, like the many which were delivered in the run up to and since the last general election. It is a shame that the system has taken so long to deliver and that sections of it need to be put on stilts.

They will not be.

The Senator need not worry.

I am disappointed that the Minister for Transport, who presented himself as a godsend to the transport system with his recent good deeds, was not in the House to listen to this debate.

Hear, hear.

I agree with Senator Ryan's points in regard to signage at toll booths and the problems in regard to the use of sterling coins on the Dublin-Belfast motorway. The latter problem is caused by the banks because they do not accept sterling coins. I have experienced the problem myself and will examine it further.

I agree with the general theme expressed by Senator Terry and others that we do not have an adequate public transport service. The Government agrees that is the case. However, much of what has been said by Senators is drivel. I do not mean to be condescending but, on behalf of the Government, I am happy to deal with problems related to the success of our economy in the past two years.

Senator Norris referred to a book he was reading in which the words "I told you so", were described as the most beautiful in the English language. However, he disagreed and stated that, in the context of a metro system, he would prefer to say "There you are". The Opposition appears to have been reading too many Harry Potter books over the summer. The Government and the Department of Transport have only been in place for 15 months, yet the Opposition seems to think we can wave a magic wand and, suddenly, everything will be all right.

The Government has been dealing with Luas since 1997.

Every Senator who contributed to tonight's debate referred to the Red Cow roundabout. I cannot imagine what will happen to the Opposition's arguments when we manage to find a solution, which we will. The Red Cow roundabout was conceived in 1984, when the thinking was that in 2014 it would be capable of handling 45,000 vehicles. Our recent economic success, which as Senator McDowell said reached double digit figures, has meant that today upwards of 100,000 cars are using the Red Cow roundabout. Ten years ago there were 800,000 cars in the country while today there are 1.63 million cars compared to 1.2 million houses. We have to deal with the problems stemming from our economic success but we are solving them.

Senator Terry mentioned the experience of Montpellier in France, of which I am aware. The Montpellier project was conceived in 1992-93. The Senator is correct in saying that it was started in 1997 and is now operational. We started our Luas project two years ago and it will be finished next year. Many Senators have mentioned the Luas project and the Dublin Port tunnel. I saw a young man on the television news the other night complaining about what the Taoiseach had said concerning the eco warriors costing us a fortune in recent years. In the soundbite, the young man said "Take a look at the Luas and the port tunnel", but what is wrong with those two projects? The Luas will be finished in 2004 and the port tunnel in 2005. I am quite sure that Senators with an interest in the Dublin transport system will be making sure they are in the photo opportunities when those projects open. Senators are saying exactly the same things that were said about the DART 20 years ago.

They should check the newspaper archive in the Oireachtas Library to see what was said about the DART then.

The Minister for Transport has set out four key policy areas in the Department, as follows: investment, being competitive, reforming the current situation and, above all, delivering on all of those areas. That is the policy of the Department of Transport and it is exactly what we are doing. The transport policy framework we are now developing is addressing these issues. We are working in accordance with the DTO's Platform for Change. If Senators examine our current figures they will see that people are already changing over to public transport. We have examined other public transport areas, including what has been called the London miracle. I accept there is a difference between Dublin and London's public transport systems because the latter has extra facilities. I am not blaming people here for taking their cars to work every morning but I believe that when we are able to produce a suitable public transport system people will use it.

Of course.

But when?

That is exactly what we are trying to do. As Members will be aware, the Luas system consists of two light rail lines. It is the first major piece of public infrastructure to be constructed in Dublin since the DART some 20 years ago. I have no doubt it will prove to be as popular and attractive to Dubliners as the DART. As the Minister, Deputy Brennan, has said, Senators in the greater Dublin area will be looking for extensions of the Luas line to their own areas when it is up and running. It is a pity, therefore, to hear what they have had to say about it in the House.

The Luas depots at the Red Cow and in Sandyford have been completed. Some 70% of the light rail line has been completed and the test tracks at the Red Cow and Sandyford are in place. I have heard arguments about differences in cost but obviously the people making those arguments do not know what they are talking about because there were two different projects, plan A and plan B. We decided that we were going to run with plan B, which was estimated initially at €465 million but when all the planning problems were taken into consideration the cost was put at €675 million. That was taking into account competitive tender prices, higher inflation in the construction sector, higher than anticipated property acquisition costs and changes to the scope of the project. The Luas project is running to cost and, although there has been some slippage in the time element, the consequences are not significant.

The RPA has advised my Department that the final cost of the project will be within the approved budget of €691 million, plus the contingency plan of €84 million as advised to the Government in December 2002. Unfortunately, there has been some slippage in the timetable for completion of the Luas. We urge all the companies involved, both in the public and private sectors, to do all in their power to ensure that no further delay takes place. We are happy that this will be so.

Senators have heard about all the discomfiture that the Luas works have brought about but I am not aware of any cities where light rail systems have been installed without disruption. Once the systems commence operating, however, they have been a great success. Which of us would not put up with some short-term pain for long-term gain? Senators can ask their opposite numbers in foreign cities what the situation was with regard to the construction of light rail systems and they will say that exactly the same situation prevailed.

The Minister of State should ask the businesses in Harcourt Street and Abbey Street what they think. It is crazy.

Inevitably there has been and will be some disruption during the construction phase, particularly where on-street work is involved. In the case of Luas, every effort has been made to ensure that such disruption is kept to a minimum.

Cuffe Street was ahead of schedule by two weeks.

Of course.

A first.

The DART works have hit the headlines in the past week as regards consumers being told of the weekend closures at such a late stage. There was a great deal of hysteria involved, however, because the Opposition suddenly found something to jump onto again.

We want to jump onto the Luas.

Exactly and that is what we are going to do.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister without interruption.

Senator Browne asked why the Luas work could not be done during the night. I do not wish to be condescending but one cannot build station platforms out of bran flakes. Can Senators imagine trying to lay concrete platforms after midnight? The last DART finishes at midnight when one would have to switch off all the power and begin the work but when would the concrete set? These are ludicrous and ill-considered suggestions.

It has been done in other countries.

Some people consider what is happening with the DART to be a necessary evil. It does not matter, however, if we upgraded the system – adding extra carriages and extending the platforms – in 1984, 2014 or 2024 because the same discomfiture would occur. We have to deal with it now because the long-term benefits of upgrading the system will be great. The Department has gone into all the aspects of doing this work.

QBCs were referred to, some of which have been a huge success. Naturally there are some problems because QBCs do not appear overnight. Someone said that we are giving money to Dublin and Cork. We are currently waiting on plans for QBCs from Waterford and Galway for which the money is available. We are not keeping all the money in the Dublin area. Some €19 million is being invested in traffic management grants in the quality bus corridor network in the Dublin area. This follows a total investment of €72 million for QBCs up to 2002 and €15 million is already committed to QBC projects in Dublin next year.

As Members know, the metro has many advantages. It can reduce travel times and congestion, improve the reliability, availability and quality of public transport and make public transport more attractive to car users. It also has the potential to improve the quality of life for the people of Dublin and for those visiting whether on business or for tourism. In 2001 the Government decided that, given the costs involved, the metro network should be phased and a call for expressions of interest were sent out. There were 22 companies anxious to build the metro. Late last year, the RPA submitted an outline business case for a number of routing options with different costs. However, given the changed economic environment, even the cheapest option was considered too costly. The RPA was asked for a more affordable option, taking account of the experience in Madrid.

The estimated patronage for the metro line one, which we will all agree is a necessity, is 24 million passengers by 2016. The RPA has tailored a proposal to allow for this patronage level initially, with a possibility in the future of the metro being expanded to cater for a significant capacity increase. My colleague, the Minister, Deputy Brennan, will be bringing proposals for phase 1 to Cabinet in the coming weeks.

I also heard arguments this evening about the linking up of all the systems, which is desirable. Given time this will occur. Surely it is of some benefit that even the Luas line from Tallaght to Connolly station links in with Heuston station and Bus Áras because 15 million people pass through these stations each year. Instead of building all the systems Harry Potter style, it is not such a bad idea to be able to convenience 15 million people with the current Tallaght to Connolly station line.

There have been five major roads projects since 2000 at a cost of €2 billion. These are necessary in areas with a high population. Like many Senators, I come from a rural area and I would give anything for a small percentage of the money which is being spent here. However, Dublin is our capital city. It is a major population area and this must be taken into consideration. Some €1.2 billion is being spent annually on roads. At the moment three of the projects are costing between €700 million and €800 million of that budget. When the projects to which I referred in my speech are completed I hope we will have money to spend throughout the country. However, we should walk before we run.

On traffic management, to help encourage greater use of public transport, the DTO has engaged consultants to undertake a demand management study. It is looking at Dublin city centre and whether charges should apply. No decision has been made in this regard. We are looking at London, though it is different from here because they have alternatives. Perhaps we should look at London after we have the initial infrastructure in place. We must accept that people do not use their cars for selfish reasons. People will use public transport when it becomes available.

As reform and regulations have not been mentioned there is no point in my going into these areas again. Senators Morrissey and Browne referred to provisional licences, which is being considered.

I want to refer to park and ride facilities. People think if we spend millions of euro on these facilities everything will be all right.

It is part of the package.

It is not that simple. There are some complex issues. We have looked at some international experience in relation to park and ride facilities. It is not as easy as Senator O'Toole pointed out. Some of our research has shown that people are unwilling to break their car journey to avail of the park and ride facilities. It is not the be all and end all of the system.

It is a disgrace.

It is not a disgrace. I am not ruling out the issue but creating a park and ride facility does not mean everything will be all right. If we built park and ride facilities which did not work, the Senator would be tabling another motion asking why we did not take issues into account.

The Minister has not tried one facility to see whether it would work.

Given the opportunity provided by the Labour Party tonight, I am happy to put the Government's point of view. I hope Senators will take some time before tabling another motion on transport. They should stop flogging a dead horse.

The Minister of State has flogged a lot of dead horses.

There are more important issues to discuss. Perhaps a motion might be tabled in 2005 when we will consider the situation.

Will the Luas then be on stilts?

I look forward to 2005 when all the Opposition Senators, Deputies and critics in the media and elsewhere see what has happened in regard to the Luas, the port tunnel and all the other infrastructural projects. It will be a marvellous country in 2005 and 2006. People should stop concentrating on just the Red Cow roundabout. They should look at all the other projects which have been completed in the past five to ten years. They should be proud of this work and the onward march of the nation which is taking place as a result of our economic success in the past five to ten years.

I am sorry Senator Dooley is not here because I wanted to offer him my solidarity in terms of the way the people of Clare have been treated by Fianna Fáil over the years. I am very familiar with that county because my wife comes from there. I have become rather over-familiar with places such as the Ennis Road in Limerick, Newmarket-on-Fergus and the wonderful town of Ennis. I have even had the pleasure of spending some time on the train from Limerick to Ennis, which takes approximately 45 minutes to travel 30 kilometres. I am well aware of how the people of Clare have suffered, despite their support for Fianna Fáil over the years. I want to offer my solidarity to Senator Dooley in his attempt to get the Minister to address that issue.

The Ennis line is being upgraded.

The Minister of State suggested that we on this side of the House were reading Harry Potter novels during the summer. My life is much sadder than that. I have been reading the New Institutional and Regulatory Framework for Public Transport, published by his Department in August 2002. The nature of its fantasy makes Harry Potter seem rather mild. I read The Proposal on Public Transport Infrastructure, published by Forfás in the same year, which is total fantasy. I also read A Platform for Change, to which the Government committed itself three or four years ago. It is full of wonderful fancy diagrams, which is in the realm of fantasy. I would be more than happy to come back here in two years' time and present the Minister of State with that diagram and if he can fill in any of those lines, I would be surprised.

None of us is complaining about the fact that eggs must be broken to make an omelette but about the fact the Minister is flinging around eggs with gay abandon with no particular planning and to no effect. The problem is that for years we have been spending much money and getting virtually nothing for it.

Talking about fantasy, I am not sure if anyone remembers the press statement issued by the Minister of State's Department in 2000 under the name of the then Minister, the now Leader of this House. It states: "Government announces metro for Dublin". That was announced more than three years ago. It does not use the words "would", "maybe" or "if". It states the Government directed the CIE light rail office to immediately commence the necessary preparatory work for the metro public private partnership with the objective of seeking invitations to tender within 12 months. We are now told three and a half years later that a number of companies have expressed a certain interest in a much scaled down version of the metro which was announced as fact and planned three and a half years ago. How can we have any faith that the Government will deliver anything next year or in two years' time as the Minister of State promised? It is as a result of bitter experience over the past six years, when money was available, that we can, unfortunately, predict with some confidence that much of what has been promised yet again here this evening will not become reality in four or five years' time and that the difficulties which the citizens of this city experience on a daily basis will continue for the foreseeable future.

I want to mention one Government proposal which was widely supported, particularly on this side of the House, but which has still not seen reality, although I do not understand why, namely, the proposal announced three and a half years ago to put in place a transportation authority for Dublin which would, among other things, take a strategic view of the overall Dublin area, including the four local authorities which it currently comprises and would look, among other things, at land use strategy within the city. The intention was that that would decide the overall policy and would have enforcement mechanisms to ensure that the bodies charged with implementation would do that job. That body has not been put in place. I understand there is still a commitment from the Government to do it and I do not understand why such a simple mechanism, which everyone accepts is necessary, has not been implemented.

The Minister forthrightly defended his case, although it is a difficult one to defend.

It is not.

All of us have an interest in ensuring that projects, which most of us supported, are completed. The Government's record over six years is not encouraging. I hope we can come back here in two years' time and look at a much improved record of delivery in less time.

Amendment put.

Brennan, Michael.Callanan, Peter.Cox, Margaret.Daly, Brendan.Dardis, John.Dooley, Timmy.Feeney, Geraldine.Fitzgerald, Liam.Glynn, Camillus.Kenneally, Brendan.Kett, Tony.Lydon, Donal J.MacSharry, Marc.Mansergh, Martin.

Minihan, John.Mooney, Paschal C.Morrissey, Tom.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.O'Rourke, Mary.Ormonde, Ann.Phelan, Kieran.Scanlon, Eamon.Walsh, Jim.Walsh, Kate.White, Mary M.

Níl

Bannon, James.Bradford, Paul.Browne, Fergal.Coghlan, Paul.Coonan, Noel.Cummins, Maurice.Feighan, Frank.Finucane, Michael.Henry, Mary.Higgins, Jim.

McDowell, Derek.McHugh, Joe.Norris, David.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Phelan, John.Ryan, Brendan.Terry, Sheila.Tuffy, Joanna.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Níl, Senators McDowell and O'Meara.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I welcome Councillor Dan Costigan from Cahir, South Tipperary, to the House.

Barr
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