The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the humanitarian situation in post-war Iraq, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 5 p.m, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, Senators may share time and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; and No. 2, Broadcasting (Funding) Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 5 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7 p.m, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, Senators may share time and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.
Order of Business.
The Order of Business is agreed. Some weeks ago Members on both sides of the House called on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House for a special debate on the gang land killings that are taking place. In view of the unprecedented scenes that occurred yesterday in the Central Criminal Court and the clear threat posed to society as a result of a small and persistent group of people who feel they have the right to give two fingers to society and reject the independence of the courts, does the Leader accept the necessity for that debate as soon as possible? Does she agree there is a need for the Government, particularly the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to get to grips with this issue? Witnesses who come before the courts deserve our protection because they come in the name of all citizens. It is also vital that where charges are laid against people, those charges are brought before the courts as soon as possible to ensure the veracity of statements given and that they are heard in open court.
Does the Leader agree that certain gang land crimes, which have proliferated in recent times, should possibly be tried in the Special Criminal Court, away from a jury and the intimidation that can be brought to bear? This is a serious matter that goes to the heart of the independence of the Republic, the Judiciary and the court system. Will the Leader arrange such a debate with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as soon as possible?
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he will make a statement on the publication of the Nally report? This report was commissioned following allegations made to the Government about the investigation into the Omagh bombing. This summer the Minister informed the Omagh bombing victims that he would be making a public statement on this matter in late September or early October when the House returned. To date, we have not had that statement. Will the Leader contact the Minister's office to inquire when that statement will be made?
The perjury Bill has not yet been published, despite it being promised on a number of occasions by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Everyone is outraged by what happened in the Central Criminal Court yesterday. The protections in the system for innocent people from unfair convictions may have been abused in this case. How we move on this matter is important, but we need to do so slowly. We need to hear from the Minister as to what his plans are for dealing with this matter. I suggest we introduce legislation that allows statements to be entered into evidence once they have been made. People who have made those statements should then be allowed afterwards to claim they were made through coercion or to change them. Another method would be for all such statements to be sworn in the first place and entered as evidence. We must bring forward legislation so a jury and a court can be allowed to reach certain conclusions on the basis of a person claiming not to remember what he or she said in a statement but not claiming it was a forced confession. I would prefer a debate on this issue to focus more on what can be done. The Minister has to take political responsibility, but we also have a responsibility to bring forward proposals.
I agree it is urgent that we have a debate on the implications for the legal system and our democracy of what happened at the Central Criminal Court yesterday. There is a sense of horror abroad at this and that we have among us the type of criminals who will engage in such utter and complete contempt for our system. We feel helpless in the face of this contempt and it cannot continue. Senator O'Toole is right that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has a political responsibility for the matter, but we all have a collective responsibility to come up with a response. I assure the Leader that none of us will be found wanting in a constructive and responsible debate on the issue.
I ask the Leader if the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will make himself available for a debate on the proposed press council. There has been constructive debate in the media recently on this issue. It boils down to whether we have a statutory or non-statutory council. In light of this, it will be useful to have a debate in the House to hear the views of Members on this important matter. We, as public representatives, have come in for much odium recently and our profession is under much criticism, if not under threat. At the heart of the issue of a statutory press council is a fundamental distrust of the media itself. It is time the media looked at this.
I ask the leader to invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to update us on the procedures and requirements governing criminal investigations and how the names of suspects come into the public domain, in particular, the recent tragic case involving a woman in Mullingar. Here was a case where a person went through a tragic and traumatic time. As the story unfolded in the media, it was clear this was a classic case where procedures and compassion should and could have been reconciled. There have been similar cases in the past. We should revisit the whole process as to how these names are released. I am not suggesting the Garda acted wrongly in this case. However, the relationship between the procedures and the media should be investigated.
On a previous occasion the Cathaoirleach allowed me to raise the need to abort the sitting of the Central Criminal Court in Limerick mainly on the basis of the fear and intimidation of the people involved in the jury. This is another classic example where there may be suspected intimidation. While I am not saying there is, a climate of fear pervades in Limerick. We must consider the views of a senior member of the Garda who stated that the Garda force in Limerick is so depleted at present that all the gardaí are involved in tracking down the criminal families and do not have time for routine matters. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should come to the House and state what extra staffing resources he will provide for Limerick in order to cater for this. Some 2,000 extra gardaí were promised in the lifetime of the Government. We are not looking for 2,000 extra gardaí but are looking for proper resources to combat the situation that pervades in the Limerick area.
I call on the Leader to ask the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to intervene as a matter of urgency with ESB, ESB International and Hibernian Wind Power in the case of the landslide in Derrybrien, County Galway to ensure the companies involved will provide absolute guarantees of safety to the residents and workers on site. The Minister should request that they declare openly and transparently that they have not been in any way negligent in the development of the wind farm on that site.
On 26 January next the blanket ban on smoking in the workplace will come into operation. I have no problem with certain restrictions on smoking. The evidence of the damage that smoking, including passive smoking, does is incontrovertible. However, certain aspects of the regulation are over the top. In particular, in the event of somebody deciding to light up in a pub the publican has the full responsibility and may be liable to hefty penalties. It is manifestly wrong that the entire onus for the implementation and enforcement of this should be foisted on publicans. The Minister for Health and Children should come to the House to see if something can be done in advance of 26 January.
I support Senator Ulick Burke's request concerning the landslide in Derrybrien, Loughrea. It has the potential to be worse than what happened in Pollatomish, County Mayo. There is great fear, insecurity and anger among the community over the way this has been handled. Not only do I agree with Senator Burke in saying that responsibility should be taken by ESB International, but I also believe that no further work should continue on this project. The idea of putting turbines on a very boggy area is wrong. The Minister should be informed of the strong feelings of this House on the way this matter has been handled.
On reflection and with the benefit of hindsight, would the Leader agree that it was rather unladylike, to say the least, if not unparliamentary for her to use the four-letter "c" word when last we met?
That is not relevant to the Order of Business. The business of the last sitting week has been dealt with.
She should remember what the use of that word did for her former constituency colleague and former Taoiseach, Mr. Albert Reynolds.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Of course I have. For the record I should say I made no approach to the Leader.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
I have. Regarding gangland crime, and the defiance we witnessed yesterday, I would like to follow what Senator O'Toole said—
I am sorry to intervene again. Many calls have already been made for a debate on this matter.
The Cathaoirleach knows how brief I always am.
We cannot debate this on the Order of Business.
I will not debate it. As always, I respect the ruling of the Chair. I want to say two things and then I will finish. The intimidation of witnesses should be treated in exactly the same manner as the intimidation of juries and signed Garda statements should have the same status in law as sworn affidavits. I look forward to the debate.
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Transport to the House to clarify the position regarding the upgrading of the N9 to motorway status. The commitment was made in the national development plan and restated in the spatial strategy, but some doubts have been expressed in recent utterances from the Minister. He speaks about fast-tracking motorways to other cities with the exception of Waterford. I ask the Minister to come to the House at the earliest opportunity to discuss the question of roads to the major cities and the motorways as promised in those two documents.
We are all outraged at what happened in court yesterday. I remember seven years ago a young woman, Veronica Guerin, sat in the Visitors Gallery. Two weeks later she was dead. We acted as a State and as a nation against those drug barons and against those who had created the outrageous situation that pertained in those days. On this occasion we are very concerned about what happened yesterday. We should keep calm and try to keep a sense of proportion because we should be very careful to avoid tampering with our judicial system. Our democracy is a very delicate flower and we should ensure that whatever actions we take do not tamper with that system that has served us so well in the past. I support the request from other Senators for the Minister to come to the House and listen to our concerns.
There is a strike in the postal service across the water and I believe there should be a strike here also except here it should be the consumers who go on strike. In Famine times a letter took one day to go from Dublin to Carlow whereas it can now take four to five days, if not a week. The postal service is in chaos all around the country. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources should come to the House and explain why letters are going missing, are taking weeks to arrive in certain places and why it is cheaper for businesses to post letters abroad and send them back to Ireland.
Is the Senator asking for a debate on the postal service?
I am asking for such a debate. It is ridiculous that 150 years ago it took a day for letters to arrive in Carlow from Dublin and it is now taking four days.
Unfortunately this weekend there were a number of fatalities on the roads, many of them involving pedestrians. This may be a sector which is being ignored. I ask the Minister for Transport to come to the House to debate the matter and perhaps put in place some means of lessening the number of pedestrians being killed on the roads. These measures could include the compulsory wearing of reflective armbands, for instance. Many families are being torn asunder this week because of deaths on the roads. This issue should be debated in the House. The introduction of penalty points has reduced the number of fatal car crashes and the same should be done for pedestrians.
I support the view of my colleague, Senator Higgins, that it is wrong to hold vintners accountable for crimes committed by others. Regulations should be introduced to ensure the culprits of crime are held responsible.
I support the request that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform be invited to the House. There is a general perception that law and order has broken down and the events in Limerick are terrible. It is having a demoralising effect on the Garda Síochána who are the protectors of the people.
I also ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to the House for a debate on poverty. There is widespread rural poverty. The carer's allowance and home help were taken from elderly people. There are—
The House cannot debate the issue now.
—people in the City of Dublin looking for food in garbage and trash cans.
Those are issues which the Senator may raise in the debate.
We are 50 days away from Christmas and it is time for the Government to take action and provide for those people.
I join my colleague, Senator Cummins, in asking the Leader to seek clarification from the Minister for Transport about the building of the motorway between Waterford and Dublin. This is an issue which has become somewhat complicated in recent times. We are unclear as to the current position and the Minister should clarify matters as soon as possible.
I also want the Leader to arrange for a debate on the arts. To the best of my knowledge we have not had such a debate in the time of this Seanad. It is important we do so prior to the casting of the budget. Last year's reductions in funding for the arts had a devastating impact on theatre groups and other artists. We should have a discussion on the national arts plan 2002-06 and ensure the Government sticks to it. I urge the Leader to arrange that debate as soon as possible.
I thank the Leader for all the work she has done, the opportunities she has given the House to meet and speak with Ministers and the efforts she is making on our behalf.
The Senator must be looking for something.
Order, please.
The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes, raised the matter of gangland killings in general but, in particular, yesterday's events in the Limerick murder trial. He asked that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come here for a debate. I think we would all wish that to take place. What happened yesterday has diminished us all as citizens. I am sure a plan is being drawn up to deal with this issue as it could have grave import for life in Ireland. I have no doubt the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would wish to come to this House. Although I have no knowledge of it, I am sure the Cabinet discussed the matter this morning. I echo what Senator Quinn said, that there is a need for reflection on the matter. We should not rush in to make incorrect statements. All speakers have shown a commendable restraint. I will speak to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and ask when he would be able to come and give us his thoughts on the serious situation which pertains following the episode in the Limerick murder case yesterday.
A separate issue is the Nally report into the Omagh bombing which was promised for public debate. We should first seek to debate the issue about which I have just spoken. Senator O'Toole put forward various points about statements to be taken on oath, the perjury Bill and other matters. The worrying aspect to what occurred yesterday is that those who seek to evade the law will be able to see loopholes for themselves in addition to the intimidation which might ensue.
Senator O'Meara spoke of a sense of horror and she is right. She sought to have the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come to the House to discuss the matter. She also raised the issue of a press council. That would be a worthy topic of debate as it is currently being discussed by the public.
In addition to the incident yesterday, Senator Ó Murchú, raised the issue of how names and events connected with criminal investigations come into the public arena, sometimes to the detriment of those centrally involved. He referred to the example of a case in Mullingar. There are many such issues which should not have come out and which in this case led to a sense of panic in the woman concerned.
On Thursday, 23 October Senator Finucane raised the issue of the intimidation to which witnesses were subject in Limerick. I accept he also did so on another occasion. He said there is a climate of fear in Limerick. I think it has spread throughout the country. He also spoke about staffing and Garda resources. I heard a person on the radio this morning making a similar point.
Senator Ulick Burke wished to raise the matter of the Derrybrien landslide with the Minister for Communications, the Marine and Natural Resources. I am aware that Senators Kitt and Ulick Burke are particularly interested in the issue. As well as having a Minister come to the House, the matter could be raised jointly by the Senators on the Adjournment. It is one which requires answers.
Senator Higgins raised the matter of smoking. While he is in favour of the general ban, he is not in favour of making publicans responsible for enforcing the law. I understand the Minister for Health and Children will bring the smoking regulations, which he has signed, before the Dáil this week. They will come before the Seanad the week after. It would be useful for the Senator to contribute on that. The Minister is certainly not for turning and he has the country with him. While Senator Higgins did not say he was against the smoking ban, I suggest he should look at his diary. He can contribute next week.
Senator Coghlan and I will speak afterwards about what happened.
Order, please. Last week's business is not this week's business.
The Senator agreed with the sentiments expressed by Senator O'Toole on gangland crime and the intimidation of witnesses.
Senator Cummins referred to the status of the N9 road to Waterford. The matter has been raised and we will come to it.
Senator Quinn expressed outrage at what happened in the courts yesterday. As he put it, we must keep calm and maintain the delicate plant of democracy. The Members of the House had a very fine, general debate on the matter. People treated it with absolute seriousness and refrained from thumping the tables.
Senator Browne raised the matter of the postal service. Mail used to take a day to come to Athlone in post-Famine times, but now it takes three days. There is a new person in charge now and he is making great strides. Hopefully, the service will improve. Senator Browne has asked that the Minister should come to the House to address the issue.
The issue of road fatalities was raised. Whereas before traffic kept in line, on the road from Athlone to Dublin cars overtake even if one is travelling at the speed limit. There was a speed trap on the road this morning and four or five drivers were caught.
Senator Bannon supported Senator Higgins's remarks about making publicans responsible for stopping smoking if it occurs. He asked that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come to the House to discuss the matter. He also asked that the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs come to the House to discuss poverty.
Senator John Phelan raised the matter of the N9 road and also called for a debate on the arts plan which would be very opportune. We have not had a debate on the arts since returning after the summer. We should hold one.
We sought the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform last week, but he is abroad at the moment. When he returns it would be worthwhile to invite him to come before the House.
I thank Senator Hanafin for his compliment.