I welcome the Minister to the House.
CLÁR Programme: Statements.
Cuireann sé áthas orm labhairt anseo ar tionscnamh CLÁR, cur síos a dhéanamh ar an obair atá ar bun, na cúiseanna atá leis na tograithe éagsúla atá roghnaithe againn agus deis a bheith agam éisteacht lena bheas le rá ag Seanadóirí.
I dtosach báire, déanfaidh mé tagairt do rud a dúradh sa Seanad le gairid, rud gan bunústromchúiseach. Before I speak generally on theCLÁR programme, I wish to raise a very serious issue regarding the abuse of parliamentaryprivilege by Senator Ulick Burke in the Seanad. Recently, the Senator accused me in the Seanad of using funds under the CLÁR programme as a slush fund. This is not the first time that Senator Burke has made this allegation and I feel it incumbent on me as a result to defend myself against baseless untruths from the Senator.
On a point of order, I am not fully conversant with protocol, but would Senator Ulick Burke need to be present to defend himself?
That is not a point of order, Senator. The Minister to continue without interruption.
When the very serious allegation was made in the House, I was not here to defend myself. In fact, I heard it from a colleague who was in the House that evening. I quote directly what the Senator said——
Is this relevant to statements on the CLÁR programme?
The Minister without interruption please.
This is relevant to CLÁR. Senator Burke said:
The reality is that if we are to judge the potential of a slush fund based on the record of Deputy Ó Cuív as controller of CLÁR, it is no surprise there is distrust. The record speaks for itself. There is approximately €175 million in the fund currently, [the dormant accounts fund] but when dormant insurance policies and so on are taken into account there may be something in the region of €500 million to disburse. That is, of course, of concern to many people. The record of Deputy Ó Cuív's efforts under the CLÁR programme in County Galway shows that he has provided, for example, footpaths to the doorways of individual supporters. He has provided roads and boreens to the homes of certain supporters. This is not hearsay — this is a matter of fact.
Any examination by Senator Burke of the facts would have shown him, as I will now demonstrate to the House, that this is an absolutely baseless and scurrilous accusation. Under the CLÁR programme my Department divides resources for roads on a population basis between the various CLÁR areas. A minimum amount of money is given to each county and there is a slight adjustment of the figures for the counties with the largest CLÁR populations as a result.
On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh, the item on the agenda is statements on the CLÁR programme.
We have no control over the Minister's statement. That is not a point of order. Will the Senator please resume his seat?
I think Senator Ulick Burke should be here to defend himself.
The Senator will be the first to speak after the Minister and will have ample opportunity to make his points then. The Minister to continue without interruption.
When will we have the statements?
The Minister without interruption.
This is the CLÁR programme.
It is a specific one to one disagreement the Minister has with the Senator.
I am addressing the issue of an allegation that was made about me when I was not present and could not have been present, unlike Senator Ulick Burke who could be here this afternoon. If he were interested in the CLÁR programme, he would be here.
That is not an issue. We will continue on the CLÁR programme.
As I was saying when I was slightly rudely interrupted——
In fairness, I did not rudely interrupt the Minister. I just asked when we would have statements on CLÁR.
Order please. Senator McHugh will have an opportunity to speak when the Minister has concluded. The Minister without interruption.
Each local authority is then informed of its allocation and it is the local authority, not me, which selects the roads within the confines of the terms of the schemes. My Department then receives the proposals from the local authorities matching the amount of money allocated. These are then sent to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for examination to ensure that they comply with the terms of the scheme. Having gone through this arm's length and rigorous procedure and on the recommendation of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and subject to a check that it is in a CLÁR district electoral division, a decision is made by my Department to approve the grants. This decision is then made public by my Department. It is obvious from the procedure that there is no mechanism by which I could personally choose roads for repair within my own county or in any other county.
I call on Senator Ulick Burke to withdraw the utterly false allegations he made against me and to apologise in the House. Politics has been demeaned, as have other professions, by wrongdoing. However, all of us are equally demeaned by untrue allegations being made for political gain, which any cursory examination would have proved to be unfounded. Senator Ulick Burke is aware of the damage that can be done by baseless allegations in the climate in which we live. This kind of allegation is the lowest kind of political skulduggery — at a level to which I would never stoop. It leaves the victim in a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" position. One is damned if one defends oneself because no matter how clear-cut is the rebuttal, one is in danger of highlighting the wrongful allegation to a wider audience, thereby creating a false impression that there must be some truth to it. On the other hand, one is damned if ones does not defend oneself because one creates the belief that there must be some foundation to the allegation.
My first reaction when Senator Ulick Burke made his allegations some considerable time ago before the last election was to ignore them for the reasons I outlined. However, it would appear that Senator Burke feels that this gives him leave to repeat these allegations. He seems to be of the mind that it is not the truth that counts, but with what one can get away.
: The Minister certainly got away with a great deal.
It is only a short time ago that Senator Burke stood up in the House——
The proof is here in my hands.
The Minister without interruption. Senator Burke will have an opportunity to speak later.
I will and I hope the Minister will wait to listen to me unlike the last day.
The Minister without interruption.
On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh, the Minister stated that he was not present in the House when I spoke on the last occasion. He walked out but I was here.
I beg the Senator's pardon.
The record shows that. Stop avoiding the issues.
The Minister without interruption.
The record will show that I was in Brussels on that day and for that reason, my colleague, the Minister of State, who has responsibility for dormant accounts on a day to day basis, was present for the whole debate.
Read the record. Do not be selective.
I was not in the country.
We cannot have verbal crossfire.
It is only a short time ago that Senator Ulick Burke was strongly critical in the House of the proposals of the Government to change the governance of the dormant accounts. He was loud in praise of the concept of independent statutory boards keeping things away from politicians. One can imagine my utter amazement when last week I received a letter from the same Senator Burke requesting funding from me, under the dormant accounts scheme, for an application from his constituency.
The Minister did not read the letter. The same letter was sent to his colleague. I have it here and his reply.
I read it carefully. The top of the letter shows the names of certain organisations.
There was no skulduggery.
Order, please. The Minister without interruption.
It was for an application from his constituency.
Arrogance.
This is hypocrisy of the highest order. It would appear that Senator Ulick Burke has a major problem with overt political controls operated in a fair and transparent manner, but has no problem with covert political interference.
With the permission of the Chair, I will reply to those points.
At the appropriate time.
It is time Opposition Members stopped speaking out of both sides of their mouths.
Is there a mirror for the Minister?
They should declare clearly whether politicians were elected to make decisions and act accordingly or whether they believe in the theory that decisions should be made at arm's length from Government. A politician like Senator Ulick Burke does no service to politics.
A Chathaoirligh, that is a serious allegation against a democratically elected Member of this House.
We came here to debate CLÁR but the Minister has nothing to offer but this. It is the same with some of the schemes he invented for himself.
Order, please.
The Senator has damaged his good name and reputation and enabled people to take a cynical view of every politician. Since my election as a Senator in 1989, I have found that the vast majority of Members of the Oireachtas, irrespective of party or other differences, have treated each other fairly and with respect. Unfortunately, there are a few who fail to adhere to these standards and do no service to politics, their country, party or group.
I turn now to the more general issues relating to CLÁR and outline the measures which have been undertaken under the programme. The measures have been directed at requirements in the areas of roads, water, sewerage, village enhancement, sporting, community and health facilities, airports, schools, piers, Garda stations, courthouses and broadband roll-out. The total spend between 2002 and 2003 was €22.751 million. An accurate estimate of leverage funds demonstrates the provision of €21.632 million.
On a point of order, can Members be circulated with a copy of the Minister's speech or is he referring to a special addendum?
I am referring simply to some notes. A copy can be provided to the Senator.
I thank the Minister for the courtesy he has shown the House by his outrage.
The Minister, without interruption.
Chuala mé faoin gciteall ag tabhairt tóin dubh ar an bpota.
Lean ar aghaidh.
On the CLÁR programme, please.
That leveraged out as a further €21 million which would not have been spent in CLÁR areas, giving a gross extra spend in CLÁR areas of about €40 million. The Estimate for 2004 involves €13.490 million and we estimate that approximately €70 million will be spent under the CLÁR programme over the next five years. In total, the spend will be €90 million over the life of the scheme. When one calculates that this figure leverages out as €1 for every €1 spent, one will find that we are talking about €180 million in extra money. This is having a considerable effect on the ground, particularly in the peripheral areas which have suffered the greatest neglect over the years.
Especially the Minister's own constituency.
Order, please. The Minister to continue without interruption.
We all understand that even within a county, there is a pull toward the centre. The CLÁR programme has been specifically designed to act as a counterweight to that pull. Recently, I announced the school playground scheme through which each primary school in a CLÁR area will be entitled to a rebate of €7,500 if it spends €10,000 on play facilities on its campus. Certain schools intend to provide football facilities, others basketball facilities and some will tar a yard to ready it for hopscotch. The decision will be for each school to make. All of us can accept that traditionally rural schools were provided with no funding whatsoever for the provision of sporting facilities. In schools with between 30 and 50 pupils, funding of this nature will help parents considerably in the provision of the facilities in question.
While we tried to contact as many schools in the CLÁR areas as possible, in the trawl we performed some schools were left out. Other schools completed the very simple application form incorrectly. Some forgot to include the roll number while others listed figures in excess of the amount to be granted. In every case in which a form was incorrectly filled in, we returned it to the school as soon as the postal dispute had ended. Schools should receive the returned forms over the next few days if they have not done so already. We are asking the schools to fill out the forms correctly and return them to the Department at which point the money will be sanctioned. If there are schools which for whatever reason and despite our best efforts through the Leader companies were not included or eligible for the scheme, it is open to them to contact my Department to be sent the appropriate application form. There is no closing date for the scheme although each school may claim only once. On receipt of an application, the Department will sanction funding which will be paid out on receipt of invoices.
Among the projects I have been keen to progress is broadband roll-out. Last autumn, my Department, with the assistance of the Department of Communication, Marine and Natural Resources, called for broadband projects. A detailed and comprehensive analysis of the projects has been carried out and I hope to be in a position in the near future to make an announcement on the roll-out of broadband to chosen towns in CLÁR areas. The broadband programme is significant. We will evaluate the success of roll-out to the towns in question. If it is a success, I will certainly consider expanding the process.
The provision of water and sewerage services in rural areas is of great importance. While we have heard a great deal about difficulties with group water schemes, there is very rare mention in the media of people who continue to be dependent on wells and other private sources of water. The argument has been made that it would be incredibly expensive to provide them with piped water from central sources, but our experience through the top-up scheme under CLÁR has been to the contrary. A very modest sum can make up the difference and render affordable the provision of water services to a household. Under the scheme, the charge per household is just in excess of €1,000 which represents a fair and equitable charge given the cost of connection to a mains supply in a town or village.
Significant advantage has been taken in Roscommon of group sewerage schemes on the edges of villages. Such schemes have great potential in other rural areas. While many towns and villages now have small main sewerage schemes which have been constructed by local authorities, in the case of development there can be a delay in extending the schemes to connect newly built houses.
How many such programmes have been supported in this way, as the Minister is speaking off the cuff?
The Minister without interruption.
We are listening to fantasy.
The Senator will have an opportunity to contribute.
I am glad the Senator raised that question. A report has been published, a copy of which can be obtained for him. Each county receives a block grant from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The arrangement in CLÁR areas on small water and sewerage schemes is quite simple. If the county, not the Minister, chooses——
Thank the Lord.
——to spend some of the block grant in a CLÁR area, it is automatically entitled to a €1 per €1 top-up from the CLÁR programme. The decision is one for the county councillors to make. As the Senator is a former member of Galway County Council——
Like the Minister.
——he should be well aware that those opportunities existed but he is correct in that the pick-up in County Galway, for some reason I do not understand but which the Senator might be able to explain as a member of the local authority, was very low.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The Minister should stop rambling.
Order, please.
No. The choice is Senator Burke's, not mine. Other counties, for example, County Roscommon, have set up endless schemes under this measure and when the Senator reads the print-out it will show him the counties that made a choice on their own to avail of this scheme.
The total cost of CLÁR funding in Leitrim was €661,000 but the total cost in County Galway last year was zero. The areas in which they spent their block grant was the choice of the county councillors. There is no point in blaming the Minister if the county councillors of Galway decide not to spend the block grant in the CLÁR area. This is the typical nonsense——
The Minister must be getting the message in his constituency.
Senator Burke, you will have an opportunity to contribute.
I do not control the council.
Praise the Lord.
Senator Burke, you are wasting time. Many Senators are anxious to make contributions.
At times I wish I did because I might get a better spread into some of these areas which appear——
It would be a mass exodus.
——to always pass up money when it is available.
Is that a vote of no confidence in the councillors?
I can say, however, that many counties have availed of the scheme. Even though they are small areas, they realise the cost benefit of doing the CLÁR schemes is attractive because they are getting extra money into their county.
Will the Minister answer the question? How many small sewerage schemes have benefited——
Senator Burke, allow the Minister to continue without interruption.
There are a number in Roscommon. Is the Deputy talking about small sewerage schemes?
Yes.
There are many.
The Minister is talking fantasy.
I have the 2002 and the 2003 reports. The ones we sanctioned this year, which were quite considerable, do not count. I will arrange for all of those to be put in the Senator's pigeonhole this evening and he can check the list for himself. It is too long to read out here. Everything we spent money on is in these schemes. We operate a transparent system and no matter how much the Senator tries to put dubh ar an mbán it will not stand up to rigorous scrutiny because this scheme has been operated in a fair, open and transparent manner and the people know that.
The Minister's people.
I did not intend to come in here today to be caught in political crossfire but unfortunately that is what happened. If there are issues to be addressed it is best to address them on a one to one basis rather than use this House as a mechanism to do that because it does nothing but degrade the House. If any comment is to be retracted it should be the one made by the Minister about a gentleman who is elected to this House. He stated that a politician like Senator Burke does no service to politics. Politics is a tough game, and I know the Minister finds that also, but I do not understand the logic behind that statement. If anything needs to be retracted it is the Minister's comment about Senator Ulick Burke. Senator Burke does provide a service and he works very hard.
The Chair will decide what is to be retracted.
I tried to interrupt the Minister a few times as Senator Burke was not here to defend himself. He is here now, however, and he will defend himself when he gets an opportunity.
The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has a big job because his ministerial portfolio has no teeth in terms of reversing the lack of investment in rural areas. His mindset in regard to depopulation is right and he wants to do something about it but as far as I am concerned, that is not happening.
I wish to refer to a number of items, the first of which is the community groups and the partnerships. As the Minister is well aware, the community groups and the partnerships fought hard to be included in the CLÁR programme and to act as a conduit in regard to the draw-down of money but the Minister decided not to go down that road. He went down the local authority road and decided not to use the community and voluntary sector for reasons——
That is not so.
——involving the rationalisation of community groups and because he is trying to amalgamate services. A whole re-negotiation and restructuring process is going on in that sector.
Second, the Minister said that €7,500 would be allocated to schools in rural areas but where was his Department last summer when a little school in Doaghbeg, Portsalon, Fanad was on the brink of being closed down? His Department was lobbied and every argument put on the table. He got various representations from his own party, cross-party and from different groups. The Doaghbeg school would have closed down last summer were it not for the fact that the Minister for Education and Science made an error in his call for its closure. That is the only reason. The closure of that school, which is in the CLÁR area, would have resulted in those children having to go to another school outside of the little community of Doaghbeg.
It is not in the west Galway constituency.
Doaghbeg is a microcosm of rural life. It is a rural area disaffected by depopulation, brain drain and the movement of people to urban centres. If the Department had any teeth it would have no problem keeping a school like that open and encouraging investment in the area. There are people living in continental Europe, America and even other parts of Ireland, from Letterkenny to Dublin, who would live in Doaghbeg if the services were provided. Donegal people would live in Doaghbeg and Fanad if broadband services were provided, to which the Minister referred earlier and which I will address shortly.
My third point concerns the CLÁR area, of which the Minister will be aware. The CLÁR area was mapped out but there was political uproar when certain areas were not included. That political uproar continued until the Minister decided to include other areas in the CLÁR area, which he did in Donegal and for which he should be commended. However, the nub of the problem was that he increased the number of areas but reduced the funds. That is a fact. That is like having a birthday party and a big cake for 20 young people and then deciding to invite another 20 but have a smaller cake. That situation must be seriously addressed.
I wish to be parochial now because the rural way of life is part of me, my social upbringing and my mindset and is something for which I have to fight the cause and bring problems to the Minister's attention. There is a small area in a place called Elly in Oughterlin in Donegal. A gentleman came to me last week and said that 50 years ago there were 45 smokes, as he called it, in that area. I do not need to define "smokes" for the Minister; he knows what I mean. The man was talking about smoke from chimneys. That number has been reduced to three. That is an area which lobbied strongly to be included in the CLÁR programme. I asked him what he would gain from being included and he said he wanted to set up a small business and wondered if he would get grant aid for it through the Minister's Department. I told him he would not because the Department lacks teeth.
The Minister has talked here on many occasions about broadband roll-out. It is like the spatial strategy and every development plan and feasibility study we have in Donegal on which millions of euro were wasted. The Minister would also agree that money was wasted on consultancy fees. Broadband roll-out is a myth when we talk about rural areas. The only places gaining in terms of broadband roll-out from the Government are urban areas like Gweedore and Letterkenny. The rural areas are not being included. There has been no examination of radio broadband or satellite broadband for rural areas. If the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs had teeth, it would carry out pilot schemes in areas like Milford, from where Icome.
A few weeks ago, my party leader, Deputy Kenny, tabled a parliamentary question on post offices in County Donegal. As I mentioned this morning, in the past 15 years, 24 post offices in Donegal have closed down because of insufficient people. Senator Glynn argued against me this morning. However, this is the effect of depopulation and the movement of people from rural to urban areas. The Letterkenny town plan cannot cope with the number of people from rural Donegal moving to the town. There is no reason for them to stay in rural areas, as there are no services, post offices, shops or schools.
There is a small place in the north of County Donegal, which no longer has a post office or a school. All that is left is a little community that is disillusioned and disenfranchised from society. They have no confidence in the system and have no hope for their young ones to return in the future as they are either working in continental Europe, London, Dublin or Letterkenny. Does the Minister believe his Department can address the issue of depopulation under his remit? The people living in the small areas I have highlighted — Elly, Oughterlin, Glenvar and Doaghbeg — do not believe the Department has done anything to instil confidence that their communities have a future.
The Minister spoke about water and sewerage schemes. We have group schemes, small water schemes and every type of scheme in County Donegal. The smaller the scheme, the more the people get hammered in terms of money. Those in a small scheme with 20 people have to pay €6,000 per household. These people are not in a position to pay that kind of money. The Minister might say that if they were in the CLÁR programme, they might be included. Where is the support from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs for them?
The Minister is using the local authorities as a mechanism to bring money to rural areas and he says this is ultimately the responsibility of the councillors. I am still a member of my local authority and along with a Fianna Fáil and an Independent Fianna Fáil councillor, I had a part to play in getting CLÁR money to County Donegal for roads. I admit that money tarred three or four lanes that would not have been tarred under the local authority programme. However, what has that done to reverse the problem of depopulation? The Minister might think that tarring a road that has not been tarred in 20 years is the way forward. This may be a case the glass being half full and perhaps I should not be too critical.
As regards water and sewerage schemes that come through the local authority, the Minister knows that each section of Donegal County Council is under pressure and constantly draws down money for major capital projects. The director of services in the environment and sanitary section of Donegal County Council is dealing with millions of euro annually. The total allocation for County Donegal from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is approximately €2 million. When this is broken down to water and sewerage schemes, sums of €50,000 to €80,000 are being allocated. Such amounts get lost in administration as the Minister knows and do not go directly to the rural area. The Minister should consider the community groups and not the local authorities as a mechanism for transferring this money.
Community schemes are operated through the community groups.
This is not true in my area of Milford in County Donegal. The water and sewerage schemes and the roads programme should not be managed through the local authority. Putting €38,000 or €40,000 through the local authority is a waste of time and gets lost in the pool.
That is not so.
Why are the partnerships singing from the same hymn sheet as I am?
We cannot have a questions and answers session now. The Minister will have the opportunity to reply at the end of the debate.
It would be impossible——
Minister, I said you would have an opportunity to reply at the end of the debate.
It would be impossible for a partnership——
Allow the Senator to speak without interruption.
I wanted to reply.
The Minister will have an opportunity to respond.
I gave the Minister credit for what has been done on the roads.
They can only be done by local authorities.
I have said we cannot have a question and answer session.
Why not, Minister?
The Senator should address his remarks through the Chair.
Why should community groups not look after group water schemes? Ultimately the ordinary people promote the scheme. There is no mechanism for the delivery of the Minister's plans for radio broadband in rural areas. There is talk about a seven-year plan under the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to have a scheme similar to a group water scheme. What proposals does the Minister have to bring ISDN lines and broadband to the outermost places like Malin Head or Downings? The Minister has no plan. There is not a hope in hell of us getting radio broadband or satellite broadband into those areas. It is all chat; it is a seven-year plan; it is another programme; it is absolute bull.
It is fantasy.
While I have asked many questions of the Minister, no doubt he will respond by highlighting all the positive elements. Through what mechanism does the Minister propose to bring radio broadband into the rural hinterlands from Milford to Malin Head to the west of Donegal? The Minister told us nothing new today and merely attacked my good colleague here. Private companies are willing to get involved in this venture. I am aware of a group with various investors in northern Scotland that wants to come and set up small to medium enterprises in rural areas and is only prevented by the lack of broadband. Broadband will bring the people in. If the people come in, the post offices can be sustained. If the post offices can be sustained, we can sustain communities and schools and bring people back to rural areas. That is what will bring people back and not bullshit such as consultancy papers.
That is not parliamentary language.
We want to bring the people back into the rural areas. The Minister should withdraw his comment that Senator Ulick Burke does no service to politics.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire agus é ag cur tuarascála os ár gcomhair ar an obair dhearfach atá idir láimhe againn. Éinne go bhfuil taithí aige ar an tír seo agus seans aige taistil timpeall, tá a fhios aige na torthaí atá le feiceáil ar an obair atá déanta ag an Aire. Níl aon Aire sa Rialtas a thuigeann deacrachtaí agus dúshláin an phobail chomh maith leis an Aire seo. Níl aon Aire eile a chuaigh i ngleic leis na deacrachtaí sin ar an talamh cosúil leis an Aire féin. Níl aon Aire sa Rialtas a éisteann chomh cuirtéiseach agus chomh cúramach le gach duine ar an talamh agus molaim é de bharr na hoibre sin. Tá súil agam go leanfaidh sé ar aghaidh leis an obair sin.
Promises galore.
I have been a Member of this House for seven years and the record will show that I never once interrupted another Senator. My principle in that regard is that one should put what one has to say on the record, let another reply and let others judge whether one is right or wrong. The Senator can continue to interrupt for the next 15 minutes if he wishes but the record will show I have never done so nor do I intend doing so.
I am delighted the Minister came to this House today to set the record straight. I have great regard for Senator McHugh, as well he knows, but to suggest an issue like this should be settled one-on-one or man-to-man is only one step from saying the matter should be settled outside. This is the Upper House of Parliament. The allegation regarding the Minister's integrity is on the record of this House. It would be wrong if the Minister ignored us. I, as a Senator, would regard myself as being badly served if, once an allegation was brought to his notice and he knew it was on the record of this House, the Minister did not seek an opportunity to set the record straight. That is precisely what he did. He did so because he not only has an obligation to this House but to the Oireachtas and the Irish people. What person, where public funds are concerned, would not set the record straight and show precisely what has been done under his stewardship? He is quite right to do so.
There is nothing inflammatory in the Minister's speech. The person to whom the remarks were directed will have an opportunity to reply as has always been the case in this House. I am not quite sure what all the hullabaloo is about in this case.
Nor am I.
Order, please.
I will go a step further and state that as a Member of this House, I would be dissatisfied if in the future a Minister or Minister of State did not feel at liberty or, indeed, obligated to come here to discuss such an issue.
Senator McHugh said the Minister did not provide Members with a copy of his speech. Members have access to computers. I have a copy of the 2003 CLÁR report, a copy of which the Minister stated will be in Members' pigeonholes later this evening. However, this important report is available on the Internet.
It is not possible for people to speak from a broad base and, at the same time, expect to obtain specific information. That will not happen. One must get down to specifics and the specifics are particularly clear. Anybody who knows that CLÁR stands for Ceantair Laga Árd-Riachtanais understands on what it intended to focus. One of the basic focuses was the pre-consultative aspect. The Minister consulted on priorities in particular areas. In all CLÁR areas, with the exception of one, disadvantage and a decline in population were identified as matters of priority. If that is not a challenge to any Minister or programme, I do not know what is. The Minister sought to prioritise those issues.
Senator McHugh asked in good faith what tarring a road has to do with halting the decline in rural populations. It is related in the same way as building a house or providing any other aspect of infrastructure. At the end of the day, everybody wants quality of life and that quality of life requires basic elements of infrastructure. We cannot suggest that one should ignore all the disadvantages and weaknesses in infrastructure and in some way, on a foundation of shifting sands, put in place a programme which will achieve miracles overnight. That is not possible.
Some €13.4 million, a 55% increase on the previous year, has been spent in this area. I doubt if any amount of public money ever spent has achieved what has been achieved with that funding. That was possible because there was a partnership in place. Money was not spent on consultants or peripheral issues; it was spent on tangible assets for particular communities. The areas in which that money was spent are so varied it would take one three hours to read them out. That is the strength of CLÁR. One cannot apply uniformity in a programme like CLÁR. Each area has a different set of requirements and needs something specific. That is precisely the reason there are so many areas involved.
If the Government is looking for value for money, then there is little that will ever show up in our accounts to match what has been done by the CLÁR programme. Rockchapel in Cork, an area with a huge decline in population, which up to four or five years ago was apathetic about the possibility of there ever being any improvement in its situation, benefited from this programme. I do not come from Rockchapel but I have seen the results of those benefits on the ground. I am speaking with a neutral voice in terms of the benefits there. I witnessed a new enhancement coming into play, a new invigoration being set in motion. What does that mean? It means one cannot expect to turn back the clock with a single swipe of a pen or one tranche of money. That will not happen. One has to enable the people to take the necessary steps. What is important is that what was done was tangible and relative to the area in question.
I was sorry the Minister commenced his contribution in the manner he did today.
For what reason?
At the end of the day when one considers it, he had such a story to tell that every Senator——
The Minister did not even provide us with a copy of his script.
——should have applauded him for what he has done and achieved.
Senator McHugh raised two or three particular issues but does that suggest we expect 100% success from such a broad-based programme in two or three years? Of course, that cannot be done. I have no doubt that the Minister will listen closely to any genuine cases brought to his attention in the same manner he brought about the organic development of this programme. I will go a step further and say that knowing the Minister as I do he would accept any invitation to meet with people on the ground as he has done throughout the country. Lest anybody is for one moment suggesting that only Fianna Fáil supporters are benefiting from this programme, I know of several programmes in which there is cross-community and cross-party co-operation and loyalty. It is important that there be community focus. Trying to contaminate this process will not help the programme or the areas involved and will not provide for improvement in the future. It is not right to suggest there is a political tag attached to this programme which is community orientated.
Yesterday, we discussed the new draft guidelines on rural housing. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív has been central to that issue which shows the CLÁR programme does not stand in isolation. It cannot stand in isolation from local authorities, central Government, the commercial world or sporting and cultural activities. It is part of a process. Endeavouring to dissect it in that manner means somebody will have to return to it later on. We will then be back here seeking guidelines on the matter.
Again, more guidelines.
However, the interesting thing was that Senator Ulick Burke and at least two other Senators on the other side of the House spoke on the Order of Business and invited the Minister to the House, as I did on the same day.
To discuss something.
He has responded to our request on the Order of Business that he come to the House. However, let us be very clear on this point. I would be extremely sad if the suggestion was that we start dismantling something that has been successful, given value for money, been in close contact with the communities being served and brought together all the interests that I mentioned — the community, local authorities, central Government and so on. It has achieved all that and in any CLÁR area where I spoke to those proactively involved, they told me that, for the first time, they can specifically identify with a policy which relates to them. The difficulty in the past with all the great and grandiose schemes we had in this country was that most of them were not poised and they were not able to avail of them. These, however, are specifically designed for them and are there to reflect what they sought.
I hope the Minister can return to us someday when there is a different atmosphere in thisHouse and we can approach this positivelyand say that, at long last, rural Ireland isgetting recognition. We see it in the rural guidelines on housing, in rural development and in so many other issues. I have attended meetings for over 35 years where I heard the finest and floweriest of rhetoric to which one could listen. We were asked what we were doing about rural Ireland, which we were told was dying. We were told that no one wanted to live there. Now people want to go back and there are schemes to help them. We are giving assets back to people and the Minister has been providing leadership.
I put this to the Senator: if he ever wants to carry out a poll in rural Ireland and ask people which political representative best enunciates their views and helps them to bring them to fruition, I guarantee him that the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, will be up near the top of that poll. I would feel extremely sad if no one else had their ear to the ground to hear that being said outside. He is regarded not as an emissary from Government, but as one of their own, a person first and foremost who sharpened his teeth in community work in Connemara. He went back there and developed the co-operative system. He brought all that experience with him and was able to put it at our disposal. Anyone who can say that he can go back to the Minister for Finance and achieve a 55% increase in funding from one year to the next must certainly have been doing good work. He must also have been making a very strong case.
I would never want anyone on the other side of the House to think that I would be personal. I will never be like that and it has never been my intention to do that here. However, if I feel animated on this issue, it is because of my involvement in rural activities down through the years. I am particularly happy that we have a Minister such as the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, who has given us leadership and brought results over the years.
I beg the Chair's indulgence to put on the record one or two matters that need to be addressed. If we had the facility of a dustbin here, I would deliver to it the statement issued here and circulated in the House today. However, I will choose to ignore that and deal with the reality of the outburst that we witnessed here, which bordered on ministerial arrogance.
Last week, on 30 March, I made representations to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, sending a similar letter to the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív. The request was that they assist in providing public funding for the provision of a crèche adjacent to the second phase of a housing scheme. The letter stated:
Dear Minister,
I wish to make representations on behalf of the Abbey Affordable Housing Project, Abbey, County Galway.
Senator——
The Minister will have an opportunity later to respond.
I will continue.
You may already be aware that the first phase of this project has now been completed and the second phase is about to go to the planning stage.
(Interruptions).
The letter continues as follows.
This housing project provides housing for elderly people, for social housing, and for some affordable dwellings also. The catchment area comprises of Tynagh, Duniry, Ballinakill and Woodford, most of them in the CLÁR area. For various reasons, some people are unemployed and require further training in order to return to the workforce, while others are badly in need of professional childcare facilities to remain in employment. I am given to understand that Galway County Council are prepared to give the site free to facilitate the building of the creche within the community as part of an overall development that can be planned accordingly from the outset. I would be grateful if your Department would be amenable to provide funding for such developments.
I sent a similar letter to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, from whom I received a courteous reply with volumes of information on how that group could provide and access funding. The following is the reply that I received from the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív.
Dear Senator,
I was astounded to get your letter on 30 March 2004
Although it was an ordinary representation, he was astounded, obviously at the cheek of anyone——
About the dormant accounts.
Order.
I will deal with it. The Minister has had his say. I will put the record straight on the arrogance that he has shown here.
Order, please.
About the dormant accounts.
I seek the Chair's protection.
I was astounded to get a letter on 30 March 2004 asking me to act in an improper manner.
For the record, a Chathaoirligh, I ask you to adjudicate on whether the obvious representations that I made in that letter to the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, and the other to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, were in any way improper.
Order, please. It is not my role to adjudicate.
The Minister wants to have his usual loaf and eat it. I am aware of his speech in the Seanad on 25 March. We heard it all in the other document today. I am also shocked at the very serious allegations that the Minister made against me in the Seanad regarding the allocation of funding. Senator Ó Murchú is deadly accurate when he states that the Minister's sentiments are focused on looking after the community. Whether there is privilege or otherwise — people can decide for themselves — it is not appropriate for a Minister to whose constituency the greatest funding allocation goes, whether for roads, sewerage or any other social improvement for the community, to disburse finances in the way that he did, since they are public resources.
I brought into the House the allocations for 2003 and 2004 for roads in County Galway. I will not go through them in detail as the Minister has refused to give the details of his own CLÁR programme, for which he refused to provide a script. However, in the allocations, one after another is in his own constituency. We see the west Galway version of Punchestown in that allocation of funding.
To put the record straight, very soon I will be asking the Committee of Public Accounts to adjudicate on the allocation of funding under the various headings and schemes throughout the CLÁR areas. It will be quite clearly seen that what I have said on the record of this House is true, accurate and verifiable, and I will stand by it. Regarding the dormant accounts——
We are not speaking about dormant accounts but about the CLÁR programme.
I have to explain why the Minister was selective and pointed. If theCathaoirleach does not want to hear it, I accept his ruling.
I thank the Senator.
I thought it apposite because of the relevance to CLÁR and the funding it will get from that particular source. It is one of the three areas from which funding will be obtained. If the Cathaoirleach does not want me to say any more on it, I will abide by his ruling.
Nonetheless, the reality and the facts stand. If there were instances where I was inaccurate in my assertions, let the Committee of Public Accounts deal with that. I will abide by its ruling in due course. However, the Minister is on record, and I will recall it for him in case he suffers from the amnesia that is in evidence elsewhere, as we speak. He was appointed a Minister of State in the then Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development some time ago. He said at the time he had nothing to do and wanted to create something. He created a scheme. He said it was in gestation for a long time before it came to fruition. This is it. There is no doubt it was designed to be particularly effective in areas of rural decline throughout the country, namely in Gaeltacht areas. Who would——
That is what it was all about.
——ever have imagined that a Minister would use it to such an extent within his own constituency? Look at it. The reality I have put on the record——
A Chathaoirligh-——
——that the only reason there was such a——
That is enough Senator.
On a point of order-——
The Minister cannot make a point of order. He is not a Member of this House.
Order, order. I will vacate the Chair. The Minister is here now as the representative of the Government.
On a point of order, the Minister is here by invitation of this House——
He is not here to be insulted.
He is not entitled to raise points of order in this House. Nor is he entitled to interrupt my colleague, Deputy Burke, in the course of his reply.
I would like to point out to Senator Hayes that the Chair rules on a point of order.
I thank the Cathaoirleach. Will the Cathaoirleach rule on it? May I continue?
I ask all speakers, including the Minister, not to be involved in political sparring.
It is not political sparring. It is a statement of fact.
The Senator should hang on a second.
Order now, please.
Is it fair that the Minister would preside and have control over such an allocation of funding? I believe there is an injustice in this and something must change.
Order now, please. Will the Senator please get back to the CLÁR programme?
I will abide by the Cathaoirleach's ruling at all times. If he gives me the protection of the Chair, I will continue.
The Minister will have an opportunity to reply.
He will, of course. If he does that, I will be satisfied. I will wait here for it. The reality is that today——
The Senator has one minute left.
Will the Cathaoirleach not be lenient, given the interruptions?
I cannot. The Senator had ten minutes.
I really thought that as the Minister had been invited to the House some time ago and would have had time to prepare, he would bring the specific details along with him. I asked him a specific question and I am restating it now. Will he, irrespective of what is on the Internet, indicate how many specific small sewerage schemes have benefited from an allocation of funding through the CLÁR programme? Perhaps he will take time out, if necessary, to provide us with this simple information. That it is on the Internet would indicate to us that the Minister, like any of his colleagues should, out of courtesy, have brought this information to the House and given his views on it. The position is that CLÁR comprises day-to-day ad hoc responses to situations as they arise. There is no focus or policy on how it may be developed in the future. It is a terrible situation that our response to the need for maintenance of reasonable standards in areas of the greatest population decline is devoid of Government policy other than reactions on a day-to-basis to cases bordering on crisis. If we could re-establish confidence in the CLÁR scheme and in the allocation of funding in a fair and equitable way throughout the relevant areas, I would be satisfied, and this day would be worthwhile.
I welcome the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, and congratulate him on the wonderful work he has done and is doing in the CLÁR programme. I trust the Leas-Chathaoirleach will be somewhat courteous on the issue of time when I get to the end of my speech. This crossfire in the Chamber reminds me of local authority politics at its best. It is not appropriate to Seanad Éireann, as the Upper House of the Oireachtas.
The funds under the Minister's stewardship are distributed strictly on a population basis, so I cannot understand the thrust of the debate up to now. It was in his capacity as Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development that Deputy Ó Cuív launched the CLÁR programme. CLÁR is a programme that set out to tackle the problems of depopulation, decline and lack of services in rural areas. The 16 areas covered by the programme included parts of the counties of Connacht-Ulster and parts of the five counties of Munster as well as parts of the four counties of Leinster. The areas selected were those which had suffered the greatest depopulation since independence, with the exception of the Cooley peninsula, which was included because of serious difficulties caused by foot and mouth disease. On average these areas had lost 50% of their populations over 75 years to 2001. In some communities in Leitrim the decline was much greater.
In a determined bid to end this continued decline of rural communities, the CLÁR programme has been fast-tracking national development plan spending in selected areas. When launching the programme, the Minister identified the lack of population as the biggest single problem and the main excuse for the non-provision of services in rural areas. He highlighted how this had become a vicious circle — a declining population leads to the withdrawal of services and lack of services means that more people migrate to the cities which, in turn, means that even more services are lost to rural areas. The Minister saw it as his responsibility to end that vicious circle. As Minister he took the view that the lack of population should be a priority reason for getting investment rather than an excuse for not getting it. He quite rightly set out to turn received wisdom on its head as he argued that a declining area that has suffered the classic symptoms of rural decline should now go to the top of the list. The Minister deserves our congratulations. Fresh thinking and willingness to change were essential, and the Minister was not found wanting. Since 2001, the commitments of the Government to rural areas have been reinforced by the establishment of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, with Deputy Ó Cuív as Minister. Nothing better illustrates the Government's commitment to rural concerns.
The Minister may not have grown up in rural areas, but throughout his entire adult life he has manifested an interest in them, and a vocation for them. He has brought great zeal to his interests. No doubt his own heritage and lineage contributed greatly. The Minister has always seemed to be very conscious of our unique tradition and culture. Many of his Department's announcements are modest, yet can have a real and positive impact on people's lives because of the standards of some of his grandiose projects of recent years, whether it be a fantastic new motorway or a striking railway bridge. My county, Monaghan, has benefited through improvements to class three non-national roads. Works such as these may not capture the headlines, but are quietly effective.
CLÁR has put the issue of population decline and its terrible consequences on the political map. If this were its only contribution, it would have been worthwhile, but it has done much more. It has provided hope where it was absent, remembered the forgotten and reached out to those beginning to despair of ever getting the most elementary infrastructure. CLÁR has complemented the RAPID programme in urban areas, as the remit of the Minister's Department extended to both programmes. The problems of excessive growth in our cities and the decline in our rural areas, with its detrimental effect on the quality of life, have been given top priority by the Government. The CLÁR initiative is part of a comprehensive series of measures focusing on quality of life issues in rural and urban areas. I welcome in particular the grants provided by the Minister for schools in the CLÁR area in recent weeks. I commend the CLÁR programme and the Minister's stewardship of it.
I would like to share my time with Senator Brennan.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an tAire. Gabhaim comhgáirdeas dó as ucht an slí in a bhfuil sé ag stiúradh an programme tábhachtach seo. I have not been in the House for very long today, but the reaction of the Opposition leads me to conclude that the Minister is doing something right. The treatment meted out to him during the past ten or 15 minutes has been disgraceful.
I had no intention of spending a great deal of time talking about CLÁR, since as a townie I have not much firsthand experience of the programme. However, I have had contact with colleagues, Senators, councillors, Deputies, and community workers throughout the country, who praise the work being done under CLÁR.
The number of areas directly funded by CLÁR is astounding. If one listened to some of the Opposition, one would imagine it deals only with roads and putting tarmac on laneways. The CLÁR programme extends across people's lives, from the provision of water and sewerage to electricity, to urban and village enhancement, local authority enhancement and major and minor health projects. It is staggering to look at the list of projects funded in 2003, which includes group water schemes, sewerage schemes, community initiatives, Knock airport, the islands and telecommunications kiosks. The signage project, involving both bilingual and safety signs, is particularly striking and affects many people travelling in Ireland. These are crucial elements in people's day to day lives. I commend the Minister. This Government and the previous one are the first in the history of the State to take seriously the concept of social inclusion. The initiation of a Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion, which the Minister of State reports to and attends regularly, was a step in the right direction.
In my area, the RAPID funding involves a scheme very similar to CLÁR. It is a community-based scheme organised from the ground up. Its first premise is community consultation. The community is consulted first when changes, or possible funding, are indicated. From speaking to colleagues around the country, it is clear that CLÁR has played a very important role in the improvement of lives. The programme covers the areas which suffered the greatest population decline between 1926 and 1996, and CLÁR funding has made a big difference in villages, towns and cities.
The RAPID funding in my own area has enhanced people's lives immeasurably. Community groups now consult each other, local authorities, the Garda and health boards. For many years, communities were excluded from such discussions, but are now the first to be consulted. That is the change these programmes have made. Dublin inner city areas, which for years suffered greatly from drugs and unemployment, are now being completely turned around. In the last two or three months, substantial playgrounds have been opened. That might be of little consequence to some people, but to those living in flats across the road from such a playground, the difference is great. Children living in those flats cannot go out to play in fields, as they might do in rural areas. For them to be able to go to a playground and feel safe, to be supervised and enjoy some leisure activity, is part of what these programmes are about.
I will disregard the Opposition comments and will not get into parochial politics on this major issue, which affects hundreds of thousands of people's lives daily across the country. Some of the projects funded, such as water and sewerage schemes, are essential to people's lives. Village enhancement schemes, housing estate enhancement schemes, bilingual signage schemes, top-up sports capital grants, Gaeltacht sports and community grants, community initiatives, health, electricity and telecommunications are all areas on which people depend in their daily lives. Dragging this down to a parochial squabble is irresponsible. I commend the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs on how these programmes are put into operation in conjunction with local groups. I wish him well with the future implementation of the programme.
I welcome the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. We in County Limerick appreciate his efforts under the CLÁR programme and the proud tradition of public service by the de Valera family since the foundation of the State.
The Minister gave a detailed account of the €22 million spent over the last two years. Projects selected by local authorities for their strategic importance are detailed. Spending on non-national roads amounted to €5 million while spending on local improvement schemes came to €2.18 million. Local roads and safety improvements were also projects selected by local authorities. Water and sewerage schemes have also received additional funding.
Who can disagree that local authorities are in the best position to ascertain the merits of an application? Funding allocations are above reproach. Many other schemes have been included under the programme such as village enhancement schemes and local authority housing estates. I compliment the Minister's work on the rural development forum programme. This is additional money and Senators should support the Minister in securing any additional funding for the CLÁR programme. The Minister has ensured that under the rural development forum all funding under various Departments for rural development is taken into consideration. Under the rural housing programme, the Minister was the first to highlight the problems with the guidelines.
The Minister will have the Seanad's support in implementing his departmental programmes. On behalf of the people of rural Ireland, Icongratulate him and wish him well in his endeavours.
I extend a warm welcome to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. I cannot understand why he was barraged as he made his speech. CLÁR funding for county councils is available but they must apply for it and be in a position to match it. There is possibly why Galway County Council did not apply for CLÁR funding. Senator Ulick Burke would be advised to see if this was the case.
When a Minister visits a constituency, the acid test of success is the number of people who wish to meet him or her. Those involved in community work know the Ministers who work hard for them. When the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs comes to County Sligo, which has suffered serious depopulation over many years, he is inundated by community groups. We are fortunate that Deputy Ó Cuív holds this portfolio. When he left Dublin for Connemara, he was involved in a co-operative business and saw how hard it is to get the business off the ground and keep it going. He has firsthand knowledge of what is needed in rural areas. Due to this experience, as the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs he has made a difference to those living in remote rural areas.
Senator McHugh referred to local issues and, of course, all politics is local. I wish to give an example of a father and two sons involved in a furniture business in County Sligo. They struggled for years to build up the business. However, they needed new machinery which required a three phase electricity supply. The costs of installing such a system were £20,000, which was unaffordable to this man. However, under the CLÁR programme he was able to avail of grants to have the supply installed.
Did it cost €20,000?
It cost £20,000.
Was there £2,000 under CLÁR funding?
No, it was 100%.
Senator Scanlon without interruption.
The cost to the individual was £20,000. With the CLÁR programme, he had three phase electricity supply installed, allowing him to buy better and efficient machinery and he now employees 12 people.
The CLÁR programme has made a difference to many people who did not have running water. It is hard to believe that there are communities without group water schemes. Costs of up to €10,000 per house for providing water to those communities make it uneconomical for local authorities. The CLÁR programme, with matching funding from local authorities, has funded three group water schemes in County Sligo at a cost to each household of approximately €1,500. Those people are entitled to the same facilities that we enjoy. This is the difference the CLÁR programme is making on the ground.
Sligo County Council will receive €66,000 this year for local road improvement schemes, on top of other funding from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The beauty of CLÁR funding is that the council must match it, bringing the total to €126,000. This will mean 20 minor roads will be improved. It also means the living standards of the one or two families served by these roads will also be improved.
Senator McHugh referred to the plethora of different organisations involved in rural development such as the Leader programme, county fora and enterprise boards. The Minister is right to examine this matter to make it more manageable. People are confused about where to apply for funding, such as employment grants. One body in each county is enough for developing local communities. The quicker it is implemented, the better.
National schools located on regional roads are dangerous and though it may seem minor, it is important. Members know of cases where young people have been injured or killed on such roads. There is funding in the CLÁR programme to provide warning lights at these schools. Four schools in County Sligo have had these installed this year. Thankfully, it has happened as there was a serious accident at one of those schools several years ago.
The Minister knows what is needed in rural areas. I congratulate him on his work with the CLÁR programme. We are fortunate that he holds this portfolio as he is prepared to listen and look after rural areas.
Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na Seanadóirí ar fad a labhair inniu. Ba mhaith liom díriú ar chuid de na ceisteanna a cuireadh.
The CLÁR programme is a top-up programme. Each of the CLÁR areas is entitled to the normal State services and the money associated with them. CLÁR funding is not the sole funding in such areas; it is top-up funding to redress an imbalance that existed in the past. When one considers the programme in that way, one can get some measure of the impact of CLÁR. As I said earlier, the programme has been in existence for two years and I have a certainty in respect of capital for a further five years. We have proven that the ratio of leverage funding is about 1:1. This means that approximately €180 million will be available in CLÁR areas, in addition to what they would have been given over a seven-year period. The approach has been tried and tested. We used it in the Gaeltacht and the islands, to good effect, and we are using it in the CLÁR areas. We are using the same procedure with a sum of money that is available in the RAPID areas. The reaction from the area implementation teams in the RAPID areas is positive. They want the money to be spent in a non-bureaucratic and simple way.
I would like to speak about how we spend the money. I do not have a huge technical team. It is incredible that the entire programme is run by five officials in my Department. We have stopped trying to re-invent the wheel. We use the existing agencies, which are responsible for various things. Local authorities are responsible for public roads, water and sewerage. My Department does not second-guess what the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, which is responsible for sports capital grants, will do. If the Department approves a grant in a CLÁR area, my Department automatically provides a fixed percentage top-up. We do not question the decisions of other Departments, as we do not have the competence to do so — it is not our role. All our schemes are based on the premise that we use the existing agencies and top up the money in a focused manner.
Deprivation and disadvantage come in many forms. We must seek to increase the population of CLÁR areas and to examine the lifestyles of people who live in such areas. It is no good to say to somebody who is 70 years of age and living in an isolated house on a bad road that employment will be created in the area some time in the future. Such people want roads to be improved immediately to enable doctors or nurses to come to see them or to allow them to get around the town, if they are mobile. The economy is simply a method by which we deal with deprivation. In many cases, the actual deprivation is the lack of water or the lack of a road.
The CLÁR programme is divided into various segments, some of which, like local improvement scheme roads, deal with the here and now. Everywhere one goes in rural Ireland, one hears complaints from ordinary people about minor roads. They will say that the state of the roads is a major issue, as is the lack of water and sewerage facilities. The provision of such services immediately improves the quality of life of those who are deprived of them. Surely that is what it is all about if we are serious about tackling deprivation. If the economy of such areas was thriving and their population was growing, we would still have to spend money to improve water and sewerage services and road quality.
It is incorrect to state that community organisations are not involved in the CLÁR programme when it is appropriate. There is a special reason that certain companies were chosen to be involved in the Leader programme. Such companies were chosen to deliver the village enhancement scheme, in partnership with the local authorities. They deliver the community grants. If a Leader company decides to give a community group €30,000, for example, subject to certain EU rules, that money is doubled to €60,000 under the CLÁR programme as soon as the proposal is made. Such companies are responsible for making proposals, subject to simple rules that have to be in place because of de minimis and other EU requirements. The system of topping up the sports grant is very much community-based because the original application has to come from a community. Similarly, LIS roads are people-based because applications come from the community. Group water schemes are community-based because every group water scheme has to be set up by a local committee. Local authorities are just facilitators in that process. We are using communities as leaders in all the schemes. We often use existing statutory agencies, where appropriate, to deliver the schemes because it is reasonable to do so.
Economic development is one of the major elements of the CLÁR programme. I said in my opening remarks that we will make an announcement about broadband soon. I know some people have doubts in that regard, but that is fine by me as it is not the first time I have been doubted. When we make the announcement, I hope those who doubt me will have the good grace to say "we doubted you, but actually you have delivered". It has been a slow process. I have to say that it was simpler to deal with the ESB because it is a State monopoly — one could ask the price and get the service. Broadband is on our agenda. We have already pursued a number of broadband projects and we will make a further announcement, on a much wider scale, in the near future.
The ESB three-phase top-up programme was exclusively for industry. It was initiated as a result of an experience that I had many years ago as a young co-op manager in the west of Ireland. The small timber mill I was running did not have sufficient electrical capacity because it had single-phase electricity. The first machine we got was run off the back of a tractor by a PTO, something that would not be acceptable under health and safety regulations nowadays. As the former manager of a small co-op at the back of a mountain, I can state that we were almost unable to get the money to install three-phase electricity. It is lucky for us that Údarás na Gaeltachta gave us a grant towards that basic infrastructural provision. We struggled on in the timber mill — when I left it in 1990, it employed approximately 30 people. It is now run by one of the greatest timber millers I have ever met and has grown to process 300,000 tonnes of timber every year. It is a major industry, which employs 150 people, directly and indirectly. I understand that it is one of the biggest timber mills in the country. It was almost stifled at birth because we were almost unable to acquire three-phase electricity.
When I became Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, I said that many small industries may be unable to make the jump from being micro-industries to meeting their potential to become slightly bigger. I imagined that two or three of them could become major industries in time, but were being prevented from meeting that potential by the fact that a basic piece of infrastructure that is automatically available in every town and city is not available to them or is too highly priced. Having examined the records available to me, I am not sure whether the €18,000 that was spent on the provision of three-phase electricity in County Sligo in 2002 was spent on the companies mentioned by Senator Scanlon and Senator McHugh.
I was just seeking clarification.
The fact that three-phase electricity is so user-friendly can be seen from the case in question. If one needs three-phase electricity, one goes to the ESB to get a quotation and one gets a grant-giving agency to validate it. We hope to involve the county enterprise boards if one cannot get a grant — not all industries can get a grant. When it is certified that one's business is a bona fide business, one sends a simple form, the validation of the business and the ESB quotation to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. The beauty of the scheme is that the Department pays the ESB directly because it is public infrastructure that is available to anyone else on the same line. The Department provides 100% payment of the quotation that the ESB gives us as the customer's charge. I do not know about the case to which Senator Scanlon referred, but I am sure the Department would have been asked to pay 100% of the connection charge directly to the ESB.
Perhaps some people do not like the CLÁR programme because, by doing what people on the ground want, it creates popularity for the Government. That may well be a good reason not to like it, but it seems to me that it has become a political sin to do what ordinary people want. They may want bathrooms or wash-hand basins in their houses, if they do not have them. If people tell one they need roads to their houses, it seems there is something wrong if one has the political nous to provide them with that and make oneself popular into the bargain. I do not know when the new political theory came in that it is wrong to provide people with what they perceive they need, be it water or roads or other improvements to their way of life. If that is wrong I stand accused, but I do not stand accused on the basis of what Senator Burke said.
Senator Burke said that I tarred roads that led to the houses of my supporters. He said today that Galway received a disproportionate amount of the money allocated for roads.
No, I did not. The Minister should not further misrepresent me. On a point of order, if the Minister checks the record of what I said he will see he has misrepresented and misconstrued it. That is what he did in the letter I read to the House and he is at it again now.
The Senator has made his point.
The Senator stated in the House: "That is of concern to many people. The record of Deputy Ó Cuív's efforts——
Now the Minister is going back to what was said before. These are theshenanigans in which he wishes to engage. I came to the House out of courtesy to listen to theMinister, but he is merely going back to aprevious debate. He talked about something I said today and now he has gone back to something else.
Allow the Minister to conclude.
The Senator said today——
We all know what was said. The Minister need not split hairs.
The Minister will conclude.
You should ask him to stick to the point, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. He has been missing it all day.
I will quote exactly what the Senator said because I have a copy of the record.
Is the Minister talking about what I said today or what I said in February?
I am talking about February.
We have heard it all already.
Instead of saying——
If the Leas-Chathaoirleach will give me the facility to repeat the Minister's letter expressing astonishment——
I will deal with that. Senator Burke stated:
The record of Deputy Ó Cuív's efforts under the CLÁR programme in County Galway shows that he has provided, for example, footpaths to the doorways of individual supporters. He has provided roads and boreens to the homes of certain supporters. This is not hearsay — it is a matter of fact.
That is what the Senator said.
The facts are here in front of me. If the Minister does not have them I will gladly present them to him. That was a shot in the dark.
If the Senator had been here earlier he would have heard my explanation. The way in which the money is divided for roads under the CLÁR programme is quite simple. For county roads, the money is divided according to the population in the CLÁR area in each county. However, because some counties — Tipperary south, Limerick and Meath — have a very small population, we give those counties a minimum of €30,000. To cover this, we take a small amount of extra money — about €15,000 — from the biggest county, which is County Mayo. The allocations this year were: Mayo, €889,793; Clare, €584,653; Cork, €576,159; Donegal, €542,806; Kerry, €496,992; Cavan, €482,660; Roscommon, €463,557; and Galway, €447,832. The last sum covers the CLÁR areas east and west of the Corrib.
The message is getting through. Hallelujah.
The Senator can check that the money has been provided exactly according to population ratios. The allegation that Galway received a disproportionate amount of funding for roads is unfounded.
The second allegation is that I had some say in the picking of individual roads. As I explained earlier today, the allocation is sent to each county council. After being notified of a block allocation, the council sends to my Department a list of the roads it has chosen.
I thank the Minister.
I presume the Senator chooses the roads in Galway.
The Minister was a member of the county council not so long ago. Did he choose them? That is the important question. If he cannot answer it——
I ask the Minister not to invite trouble. He should conclude.
Unfortunately, when I was a councillor there was no CLÁR programme.
That is what I told the Minister today. It was his own creation.
The roads are selected by the council and sent to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which checks to see whether the roads comply with the specifications that have been laid down on its advice.
Did the Minister give Deputy Fahey a glimpse of them?
I do not see what roads have been chosen until the list comes back to the Department.
This is all very intricate.
I suppose it seems so to the Senator. We give a block allocation to County Galway. Galway County Council chooses the roads that are to receive the funding. I presume the councillors have a say in this — I hope they have.
From the Minister's criticism of them I would not say they had much input.
Allow the Minister to finish without interruption.
The councillors pick the roads.
That is not factually correct.
Somebody in the council picks the roads. If councillors do not make sure their own officials are involved, that is their problem, not mine. The roads are picked by somebody in the council, be it officials or councillors. The list comes back to my Department and, without reference to me, it is automatically sent to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for its opinion. That Department ensures that the roads chosen are class 2 and 3 roads. If everything is in order they are approved. This is totally at odds with the serious allegations made by the Senator in the House.
That is the Minister's spin on it.
I cannot understand how anybody could talk about slush funds and building roads to supporters' houses when the process is carried out in such an open, clear and transparent manner.
There is one curiosity about all this. A number of years ago I attended a committee meeting of the other House at which Senator Burke's colleague, Deputy McGinley, was present. Not only did he praise me for bringing back scéim na mbóithre áise, he complimented me, on the record, on the fair way in which I had spent the money. Since I became a Minister I have been careful to allocate money in a fair manner. The whole of the CLÁR programme is predicated on ensuring I can stand over every step of the process. I will not accept the baseless allegations made in the House today and on a previous occasion. Each one of these schemes is operated through a process, not according to my personal choice. I create the schemes, of course, but I do not make personal choices onprojects. That allegation is totallyunfounded.
The allocation of funding for roads under the local improvements scheme is quite simple. Each county is given an allocation by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. When the council has allocated this money it works out how much has been earmarked for CLÁR areas. It notifies my Department of this and we divide the amount by two and make a further allocation for LIS roads in the CLÁR area. The county council picks the roads according to its own priority list. I do not think anything could be fairer. It does no service to politics to imply that people are personally interfering with a mechanism for distributing funds. Every step of the system is designed so that the money is allocated according to series of schemes and not depending on any caprice of mine.
It is certainly well designed.
That is why the Senator is so annoyed. It hurts him that this scheme has been so successful on the ground.
In the Minister's constituency.
In the Senator's constituency. Each of these areas was picked by objective criteria. I can show the Senator all the maps and the details. When the revision took place there was not one DED added west of the Corrib. There were quite a number of DEDs east of the Corrib because the figures stood up that way. I did not do the first analysis, but when we got the 2002 results and examined the matter carefully, on the objective criteria we laid down, there were areas to be added east of the Corrib but not west of it. None of the areas east of the Corrib was in my constituency.
The hurt for the Senator is that the Government is doing things that people want us to do. It seems that the biggest sin in politics now is to listen to what people want and act on those wishes.
Promises.
If that is wrong, then the Senator is right and I stand accused and guilty. As long as I am in politics, however, I will try to do the things that people in my area need, request and tell me to focus on. I will do it fairly and objectively but I will do it and if I am subject to criticism for that, I will accept it.
I do not want to take up too much time but I wish to correct the record. Written at the top of the letter I received about the money for the Abbey affordable housing project is "Abbey affordable housing — dormant accounts". Then I was asked for money. If anyone here received such a letter would he or she not think that the——
On a point of order, I read this into the record of the House for correction purposes. I wrote a similar letter to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who replied politely and informatively. However, the reply I received from the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, was arrogant. I have put it on the record but here we are at it again.
Is that a point of order?
This is bordering on intimidation by the Minister.
I have always treated all my colleagues on both sides of the House fairly. During the debate on dormant accounts however, Senator Ulick Burke, not for the first time, started throwing around allegations about me like snuff at a wake.
They are not allegations, they are factually correct.
They are not.
I will stand over them any place, any time.
The Minister, without interruption.
However, I will give the Senator this much——
I thank the Minister.
——when I received a letter headed "Abbey affordable housing — dormant accounts", addressed to me as Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, who has the ultimate responsibility for the plan and also for the dormant accounts——
True.
——my reading of that letter was that it was asking me to make representations about dormant accounts.
The Minister never mentioned his ultimate responsibility and that is misrepresentation.
No.
It is important that it is corrected for the record, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. If that is the Minister's fashion, nobody——
The Minister is replying and he is entitled to do so without interruption.
The Minister is grossly unfair in what he is doing. He came into the House without a script and we have nothing on the record. We will have to wait for the Official Report.
It will all be on the record.
We will get it outside.
If the Senator is now saying that he was not writing to me about dormant accounts, I cannot understand why "dormant accounts" was at the top of the letter. However, if the Senator says it had nothing to do with dormant accounts and that he thought I had some funds, I cannot understand why "dormant accounts" was mentioned specifically on hisletter. If he tells me that is the way it was, I accept what he is saying but I would ask him to be——
For the record, I will put it clearly. With your permission, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, I will repeat the actual wording of the letter.
The Senator has already put the letter on the record.
I did but it has been misrepresented.
Allow the Minister to continue, without interruption.
I want to inform the Minister about the contents. A similar letter went to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
The Senator has already put that letter on the record.
I do not know why the Minister continues in that vein.
If the Senator tells me that, despite the fact that dormant accounts were mentioned in the letter, it had nothing to do with dormant accounts, then I will accept that it was just a very badly written letter.
Thanks for the compliment.
I have the grace to accept that my limited ability to read "dormant accounts" where it is written is in some way down to the convoluted writing of the Senator. However, I would hope the Senator would have the good grace to accept that I have proven quite conclusively that CLÁR funds are dispersed in a fair, open and transparent manner at arm's length. The allegations the Senator has made against me — not once but several times, both in the print and electronic media — are totally baseless.
I refer the Minister to the article printed in Relate magazine.
Sitting suspended at 4.25 p.m. and resumed at 5 p.m.