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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 May 2004

Vol. 176 No. 18

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, Child Trafficking and Pornography (Amendment) Bill 2004 — all Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 12.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed eight minutes; No. 2, Copyright and Related Rights (Amendment) Bill 2004 — all Stages, to be taken at 1 p.m. and to conclude not later than 2 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed six minutes; and No. 3 Health (Amendment) Bill 2004 — Committee Stage to be taken at 2 p.m. and to conclude not later than 3 p.m.

A Supplementary Order Paper will be circulated later today in respect of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) (Amendment) Bill 2004, which is being taken in the Dáil this morning and will be taken in the Seanad this afternoon. All Stages of the Bill will be taken at 3 p.m. and will conclude not later than 4.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed eight minutes. There will be a sos from 12.30 p.m. to 1 p.m.

I am sure all Members will agree with me that accepting today's Order of Business and specifically allowing all Stages of both Bills to be taken is an unprecedented move. While we understand why we must debate these matters in their totality today, will the Leader give a commitment that there will be no new legislation to address possible issues that might arise from Article 35 of the Constitution in connection with this matter? We have had a series of good meetings with the group leaders, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Attorney General in the past week. While supplementary legislation is being introduced, is any other legislation planned by the Government in connection with this matter? While we agree to take these two matters in their entirety today, we will not agree to this in perpetuity, although we accept the fluidity and unprecedented nature of the current situation.

I fundamentally disagree with the decision taken by the CAO not to release the details of schools attended by those taking up college places next year, which is a retrograde step. However crude it is to simply list the number of pupils from particular schools who end up in third level institutions, it is virtually the only information parents have at present. It is a backward step and is cowardly. The CAO is using certain legislation as a sop to other people. It is an example of the educational establishment circling the wagons. We must have a debate on this issue. We need some form of assessment whereby parents can establish exactly how their child's school is performing by comparison with other schools. We must not be afraid of this issue as there are too many vested interests which must be tackled. Too often, parents are excluded from the entire education process. They are spoken down to. We must debate this matter in the House. There are a range of views on the issue and I would like an opportunity to express mine, which I suspect is a minority view in the House. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Education and Science to the House at the earliest possible opportunity to allow us to have that debate. We must ensure greater transparency and flow of information to parents to allow them to assess the performance of their child's school and of their child therein.

When will legislation come forward from the Minister for Finance who promised at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis to cap the money paid to barristers and solicitors working at tribunals? Yesterday, the Government adopted a Fine Gael initiative on foot of which those who wish to work within the tribunal system will have to tender before they are accepted by the Government. We welcome the Government's acceptance of our proposal on another Bill. However, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis that he would stop this. When will that happen?

It was the Minister for Finance.

When will legislation come before the House? The Members opposite are obviously getting very worried.

It was the Minister for Finance. While I am sure the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would love to address the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis, fortunately he was not invited.

That is right.

Just as the teachers had forgotten that Fine Gael did not want to pay them their benchmarking, the party seems to be again determined to stop members of the profession from voting for them. I look forward to a debate on the issue from a different point of view.

The Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service was prevented yesterday from having a discussion on decentralisation. I do not understand why. We should have the debate in this House.

We had it a few weeks ago.

Apparently, the Government parties do not want to discuss how decentralisation will happen, which is wrong. People know my views on the matter. I have supported the Government's position. While I have spoken in favour of decentralisation, I certainly want it discussed to a greater extent. I want to hear different views, deal with the issues, address problems and establish a timescale.

It is being dealt with by the central review committee.

I ask that this debate take place. I do not know what people fear.

No one can legitimately object to the Order of Business today in the sense that the Leader has had to make changes to it for wholly acceptable reasons. However, I must remind the House that there are two urgent Bills before us today which we did not know about last week. They have been brought to our attention in the last 48 hours. While I do not contend that they should not have been brought forward, my fear continues to be that there is no plan here. Every day, a new issue or problem arises and we are doing exactly what we said we would not do to address them. Specific legislative changes are being made piecemeal. While I have no objection to dealing with this legislation as I realise it must be done, I am worried about our approach.

There are two Bills before us but we still do not know what kind of committee will be established next week or if it will have investigative or other functions. Everybody has bent over backwards to accommodate discussions. The Leader arranged a meeting with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Attorney General last week and I could not ask her to do any more than that. While we had a full discussion with those people and received substantial reassurances from them — I acknowledge that they mean well — we should take a deep breath and wait until the whole plan is put together in front of us rather than move forward step-by-step to address issues and make changes piecemeal. We might as well build a tunnel to the Four Courts as we will be up and down all the time. I support fully the views of Members on all sides of the House that this matter must be addressed.

Can the Minister for Transport come to the House to outline the domestic problems within Fianna Fáil on the break up of the airports? It is a domestic row. People are scratching each other in public, hitting each other with handbags and calling each other names.

That is sexist.

I want to know what is happening. Is there a Cabinet position on the break up of the airports?

It is postponed.

I hope people on the Fianna Fáil benches will support me in this. Let us hear what is happening. Clearly, there is no plan. The business plan has been scrapped. When finally we got to see it, it was shot down by every business person who saw it. Who is driving this process and what is the position of Cabinet members, particularly the Minister for Finance?

I agree with Senator O'Toole on that very important issue. Government-appointed consultants have made three important points on the break up of the airports, which has become known colloquially as the "Brennan plan". First, no business case has been made for the Brennan plan. Second, higher charges will result in three of the airports involved. Third, no additional terminal capacity for Dublin Airport is envisaged, Shannon Airport will be non-viable and Cork Airport will be a loss maker. I repeat that the consultants producing this report were Government appointed. I appeal to the Leader to provide the House with a statement of clarity on official Cabinet policy in this area. The trade unions have seen a PricewaterhouseCoopers report which states the report on the Brennan plan casts doubt on the financial viability of the breaking up of the airports. This has very serious implications, not least for the local economies around Shannon and Cork. It is a serious issue and it is quite clear that there is no unanimity on the issue at Cabinet level. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, was unable to secure the support of his colleagues at last Tuesday's Cabinet meeting.

Senator Coghlan has been very active on the State payments scheme and recently introduced a fine Private Members' Bill. It is now clear that a practice in terms of interest and engineering charges, which is largely confined to Cork, Mayo, Sligo and Limerick is costing house buyers up to €7,000 due to the operation of the scheme. It is not good enough. It is not very healthy if people must pay 90% of the cost of houses before they can take possession. This militates against many young couples. What are the intentions of the Leader in this regard? I do not mean to steal the thunder of any other Member on this issue, but I would be very interested to know when legislative work will get under way.

The Labour Party should have put Senator McCarthy forward in the South constituency in the European elections.

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Would the Senator welcome that? He would do better than Senator Ryan.

Members should confine themselves to commenting on the Order of Business.

As spokesman for the Government on consumer affairs in this House——

The Senator should not mislead the House.

——I ask the Leader to arrange a debate next week on the Diageo proposal to increase the price of the pint by approximately 15 cent from next week.

Name and shame.

The price will be increased on Guinness, Budweiser, Smithwicks, Carlsberg and Harp.

That is naming and shaming all right.

Is it not a free market?

The British-based Diageo group will kill the goose that laid the golden egg. People will buy those products to a lesser extent in the short term at least.

I do not know about that.

Bring back the butter vouchers.

We are being poorly served by the Director of Consumer Affairs, Ms Carmel Foley, whose office is a toothless tiger.

That is ridiculous.

Senator Leyden, I have warned you before about mentioning in the House the names of people who are not here to defend themselves.

She is a public figure.

It does not matter who she is. I have asked you several times to refrain from naming people, but you insist on doing so.

It is part of naming and shaming.

I am sure she is in a position to defend herself. I ask the Leader to arrange a discussion in the House.

On a point of order, I want Senator Leyden to withdraw his comment or to be asked to leave the House. He has made an unwarranted allegation against a person who is not a member of the House and it should be withdrawn immediately.

That is true. I ask you to withdraw the remark Senator Ledyen.

It was not against an individual.

I am asking you to withdraw it, not to say anything else.

Does the Cathaoirleach mean against the individual concerned?

She is not a toothless tiger.

Is the Senator withdrawing the allegation?

He has withdrawn it.

Yes, I reluctantly withdraw it. The point is——

Has the Senator withdrawn the allegation?

Of course I have, but the facts still stand.

(Interruptions).

That is not a withdrawal.

All right. I withdraw any personal allegation about Carmel Foley.

Is the allegation withdrawn?

Yes, I withdraw the personal allegation.

The Senator should not play games. It is unfair to the Chair.

I am not being unfair to the Chair. I am being fair to the consumer. I am more concerned about consumers' rights than those of anybody in particular. I call for the Tánaiste to come to the House and explain the activities of the——

Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Yes, next week, or before that if possible.

I support Senator Leyden's point about the price of a pint. The increase implemented by Diageo is six cent, although it is expected that the actual increase will be 15 cent through a combination of factors. What should not be ignored, however, is the excessive duty imposed by the Government. For the working person, this is too much. There is one important factor we should all bear in mind, of which the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism is very conscious. We are pricing ourselves out of the market in the area of tourism. Anyone who goes to a euro zone country can see the difference in prices. The pint is an important component of the Irish pub experience. We should not lose sight of that fact.

I do not want to elaborate on what has been said about Aer Rianta, but the Cabinet has put off the decision until after the elections because its members understand there may be a reaction against it. Recent developments are creating much uncertainty. In the Shannon area, a committee that was formed last October was stillborn — it has not met or become involved in any activity. In parallel with the activities of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, the Tánaiste stated that she wants the Shannon free airport zone to be transferred to the new company, thus removing a revenue base of €6 million from Shannon Free Airport Development Company. There is tremendous resistance to these developments among all the American companies within the area and much uncertainty about the future role of SFADCo in the region. We need to discuss this with the Minister. Rather than having statements, the Minister should come to the House to answer questions. We must put the pieces of the jigsaw together in the House.

I do not know from where the figure of a 15 cent increase in the price of a pint came. The newspapers, as usual, had it on the front pages. Diageo is to add 6 cent plus VAT per pint. The Licensed Vintners' Association and the Vintners' Federation of Ireland have fought hard with Guinness over the past number of months to try to avoid this increase, but the company is not listening. These decisions are made in London now and what we do here does not appear to have any influence. I do not think there will be a 15 cent increase. I can almost assure the House this will not happen, although there will be an increase.

The price of drink is very high. Publicans are suffering severely at present due to the double blow of the smoking ban——

Did the Senator not vote for the ban?

——and price increases. The high prices are due to the extremely high taxes here. I hope the Minister will consider harmonising our tax and excise duties with the rest of Europe. I do not know where the figure of 15 cent came from, but I know it will not be implemented.

I ask that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government come to the House for a debate on voting registration. The obligation to go to a Garda station to register is a deterrent among certain people. In Carlow, only one fifth of the forms given out have been returned. In some rural areas it is next to impossible to find a garda in a Garda station. There will be a presidential election in November and I hope that changes will be made to encourage as many people as possible to vote. People who will be away on holidays should have the option of a postal vote.

Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Yes, I am seeking a debate on this issue.

The Senator may make all those points during the debate.

Regarding the issue raised by Senator Brian Hayes, my understanding is that the CAO refused information to the newspapers because of a concern that it would be in breach of the Data Protection Act. Such information has been used in the past for the type of crude league tables we are trying to guard against. I am surprised that Senator Brian Hayes appears to be enthusiastically supporting the release of such information.

Parents have no other information. The status quo is being defended throughout.

Notwithstanding the fact that this dispute does not involve the Minister for Education and Science, we would all welcome him to the House as soon as possible to outline his proposals for the release of more holistic information to parents and students.

The latest increase in the price of oil brings the cost to more than €1 per litre. This has the capacity to bankrupt individuals and small and medium-sized businesses. People from the midlands travel up to 160 miles per day to and from their place of work. For a medium-sized car, this costs around €16,000 per year. It is like having a second mortgage and puts a major dent in people's income. It will bring about bankruptcy and people will be forced to give up their jobs. I call for a debate on the possibility of the Government's removing the 5% tax it imposed on fuel in the last budget. It should do this as a goodwill gesture to the people who commute each day and to small and medium-sized businesses.

Senators

Hear, hear.

I ask that the Minister for Transport come to the House for a debate on roads, particularly the need for a ring road in the Thurles area. Due to economic growth there are more cars on the road.

That matter would be appropriate for an Adjournment debate.

I also draw the attention of the House to the fact that there has hardly been a wet day since the smoking ban was introduced. Perhaps the sun is shining either on the smokers or on the Minister's decision.

I call Senator Ross but I ask him to be brief. There are many Senators offering and we have a time constraint.

I have been waiting for a long time.

I know you have, but I do not want to delay the proceedings.

If I could continue without interruption, I would take less time.

I endorse the comments of Senators McCarthy, O'Toole and Finucane about Aer Rianta. We may not all approach the subject from the same angle, but the fact is that this is a semi-State body that has gone walkabout. It is impossible to tell from the reports in the newspapers and the press conference given yesterday who is in charge. The outgoing board is under threat and is a lame duck. The Minister for Transport is apparently introducing a plan which does not have the support of the Taoiseach. A letter from the leader of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to the Cabinet immediately caused a delay. The plan itself appears to be of dubious business value, but we cannot judge because we have not seen it. Dublin Airport is in chaos and is not being properly run. If nobody else intends to, it is high time this House brought in the Minister and put him through a question and answer session rather than having a debate or statements.

Senators

Hear, hear.

This semi-State company is in chaos and is not being governed by anybody.

Another semi-State operation which should cause us a certain amount of alarm is the National Lottery. I put a motion on the Order Paper today in this regard. It is regrettable that the National Lottery is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. As a result, it is very difficult to get any information about what is happening. There is a particular instance which the House should examine. While it is difficult to confirm this, apparently it has stopped sellers selling lottery tickets illegally overseas and accepting them for the lottery. This practice went on for approximately 15 years. I tried to investigate the matter but I came up against a brick wall. One cannot get information unless one speaks to the executives involved. Things have gone on behind the scenes which are not clear and which need to be investigated. It is time the matter was either subject to the Freedom of Information Act or there was more transparency from the National Lottery.

I support Senator Browne's remarks on the electoral register. The current situation regarding the compilation of the register is totally inefficient. The people concerned are doing their best but it is not working in the urban areas in particular. Auctioneers and estate agents could be of great assistance in notifying local authorities of changes in regard to properties they let. The manner in which the register is currently compiled is nothing short of a calculated disaster. Something must be done about it and I ask for a debate in this House on the matter as soon as possible. I am pleased I am not going for election on this occasion and I pity those who are.

Will the Senator call on the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to resign?

On the break-up of Aer Rianta, will the Leader inform the House whether there is a revised plan? I accept what has been said by other Senators. There is much confusion but we do not know whether it is because of an impending date early in June, further genuine consultation with unions or because a chairman of a company has branded the aviation regulator a disaster. No one knows what the confusion is about. Furthermore, the Leader will be aware that the board of her favourite hotel group, namely, the Great Southern Hotels Group, is totally in the dark. As there is great concern in this area, there should be some interim statement on the matter.

On the two urgent Bills which are coming before the House, I accept the committee which will be set up cannot be a committee of investigation and cannot, therefore, make findings of fact. If there is to be a subsequent hearing in this House, how will it obtain primary evidence?

The Peelo report, to which Senator McCarthy referred, indicates the seriousness of these State payments. The Leader has kindly offered Government time to debate the issue. Perhaps she will be able to arrange for this soon.

I support the call for a debate on the electoral registration process. Calls for such a debate are ironic given that the closing date was last Monday. There has been confusion about the different closing dates for different categories of voters. I checked with Galway County Council on Monday, the closing date, when 1,200 people arrived with their registration forms. There should be a better way of dealing with the voter registration issue. I favoured in the past, and still favour, the idea of a census similar to the census of population. There should be a more practical way of ensuring people's names are on the register so that they will not be disappointed on election day.

The decision of the Northern Ireland courts yesterday that the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA are not illegal organisations is a reminder of the dangers of rushing through legislation. I do not how this happened in the North. I would like the Leader to ask the Minister to put our minds at rest that legislation passed through this House ensures these organisations are illegal. That we are making an exception today is understandable, but it is a reminder to us to be very careful. When the Data Protection Act passed through this House, we were unaware that we were depriving citizens, including parents and students, of information we thought would have been available to them. We were unaware we were doing something that rendered the information unavailable.

I have been reminded by Senator O'Toole that it was the 1966 budget that increased the price of a pint to 2s. 6d., currently 15 cent. To put Senator Leyden's mind at rest, people then said they were putting themselves out of business because there was no way people could afford a pint following the increase.

I support Senator Browne and my other colleagues who called for a debate and, I hope, some progress on the electoral registration process. I have raised on a number of occasions my disappointment that at national level the Oireachtas and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government have made no effort to promote local elections and encourage people to vote. It is more than five years since we were given a solemn commitment by the then Minister in the aftermath of the low turnout in 1999 that steps would be taken to encourage a higher turnout. We are now sleep walking towards a situation where perhaps less than 50% of people will vote in a national election, which is bad for democracy. It may be too late to address the problem for 11 June but we need to have a serious debate on how to encourage people to vote and use whatever means possible to increase turnout during election time.

On a lighter note, colleagues are quite distressed about the possible increase in the price of drink. A Chathaoirleach, I wonder should you call for a price freeze in the Dáil bar?

I have no control over that matter.

I agree with my colleagues on the drawing up of the electoral register about which there have been serious difficulties. In deference to Senator Glynn's proposal, the auctioneering industry is the last industry I would look to to put people on the register.

What about Roscommon town?

There are many Portuguese in Roscommon. One Senator has taken to learning some Portuguese.

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

In regard to what Senator Quinn said, the 15 cent price increase is very serious and will cause serious damage to the tourism industry. Hotels and gift shops are experiencing serious problems and the signs are very bad for the industry during the summer. I would like the Minister to come to this House and outline what he intends to do to rescue this serious situation.

Senator Brian Hayes asked if I would give a commitment that there will be no new legislation on the matter we are discussing today. I cannot give such a commitment but I am aware that matters are being examined in a painstaking fashion. The Senator disagreed with the CAO's decision and said there are many vested interests which do not allow parents to get information on school results. This is a serious issue. If a complete school assessment was involved, it would be fine, because it would include character training, sport, cultural activities and so on. Merely examining the barren details of who got what place is not the correct way to look at education. However, there should be a debate on the matter. The Senator also wondered when the Minister for Finance was going to cap barristers' fees, and said the Fine Gael submission on the matter had been accepted. It seems like a good move.

Senator O'Toole agreed there should be whole school results rather than the current way in which they are published. He also asked for a discussion on decentralisation, which would be worthwhile as we could find out the stage we are at in the process.

Hear, hear.

We will try to get the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, to come to the House to speak on the issue. Senator O'Toole also spoke about the break-up of the State airports. There is a need for clarity on the matter but the Government is right to await the details of the business plan. He also spoke about today's debates. There is a constitutional imperative on every Member of this House to deal with the matters before us. Last night I stated that this House had a good record of not rushing legislation. However, this is a completely different matter. We have to deal with the matter competently and briskly. Senator O'Toole claims we make it up as we go along but there is no template which the House can use to deal with the issue. The Government is taking very clear steps to cover everything. It would be impossible for a Government to say how it will deal with A, B, C etc. and that is how to proceed. By taking these steps, we are closing loopholes which could emerge.

The point is that we might be missing some steps.

There are very good minds at work and we have to put our minds to work. I accept that everyone's view is important but the meetings we have had and the information we have been given is concrete and definite and the pointers are being laid out. We have a day of onerous work ahead of us and we must carry it out.

Senator McCarthy spoke about the Brennan plan and Government policy for the airports. I think it will emerge when the unions have been consulted and when the business plan has been fully accepted. He also mentioned Senator Coghlan's Bill on staged housing. I think it is a good Bill, I am partial to it, and I hope we might introduce it before the House goes into recess in July.

Hear, hear.

There are many burdens on young people and it is difficult for them to get enough money to put down a deposit for a house. Staged payments are very common in rural areas.

Senator Leyden spoke about the Diageo proposal to raise the price of a pint. I would like to think people would stay away from the pubs but I do not think they will. Senator Bohan claimed that people would stop going to pubs but I do not think he is right. He also asked for the Tánaiste to come to the House. Senator Finucane agreed with Senator Leyden and spoke about the uncertainty in Shannon, particularly regarding Shannon Development. The possibility that its activities will be given over to the new airport board has been mooted and the Tánaiste will address that. Senator Bohan believed that a suggested increase of 15 cents in the price of a pint was not correct. I hope he is correct, and we will ask him to give us a progress report on it. He also claimed publicans were reeling from the smoking ban. The owner of my local pub in Athlone says that is not so.

Senator Browne mentioned the issue of voter registration and the postal vote. There are four counties in England that are using the postal vote in the local and European elections. The issue has been on the BBC. I believe that going to the polling station and casting a vote is an act of citizenship.

Senator Fitzgerald spoke about the CAO and the Data Protection Act. It made its decision based on the idea of holistic education. Senator Bannon raised the issue of the price of oil and wants the Minister to intervene. Senator Hanafin sought a debate on roads. A very fine report was published two weeks ago by the NRA on the roads system and perhaps we can have a debate on it.

Senator Ross called for a debate on Aer Rianta and claimed that people would have different points of view. He felt the business plan published was dubious. We should have a debate on it before the summer recess. Senator Ross also claimed that the National Lottery should be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. It was definitely on the schedule of bodies not to be considered under that legislation, but perhaps the time has come to change that. It is dispersing huge amounts of finance so we should know more about it. It is a fine business, but why should we not know more about it?

Senator Glynn spoke about the polling register and the need to take definite steps to deal with lacuna in it. Senator Coghlan raised the Great Southern Hotel Group. It is not that it is my favourite hotel group——

The Leader gets my drift.

I do not frequent the bars of those hotels every night.

The Leader could not do such a thing as there is no hotel from the group in Athlone.

Senator Coghlan and I both know which hotel we like the best.

That is worse.

I thought the Leader had two favourites.

The Chair is of the opinion that the Senator's preference of hotel is not a matter for the Order of Business.

I hope we will be able to discuss Senator Coghlan's housing Bill before the summer recess.

Senator Kitt spoke about the voting register and the need to rely on a census to fill the register. Senator Quinn referred to a decision of a judge in Northern Ireland in which he deemed the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA not to be subversive bodies. That decision has been appealed. He also pointed out to Senator Leyden that the price of pint in 1966 was 2s. 6d. What was each person earning at that time?

Senator Bradford claimed that no steps were being taken to promote democracy, while Senator Feighan spoke about voter registration. He pointed out that a particular Roscommon Senator has learned Portuguese. All I can say is hasta la vista.

Order of Business agreed to.
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