Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 2004

Vol. 178 No. 5

Order of Business.

Ms O’Rourke

The Order of Business is No. 1, Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2004 — all Stages to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 2 p.m, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes. This Bill on passing also requires an early signature motion which will be introduced by way of a supplementary Order Paper; No. 2, Ombudsman (Defence Forces) Bill 2002 — Committee Stage to be taken at 3.15 p.m. until 5 p.m. and if not previously concluded to resume again at the conclusion of No. 19, motion No. 13, and to conclude not later than 8 p.m; and No. 19, motion No. 13, to be taken from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. There will be a sos from 2 p.m. to 3.15 p.m.

Regarding the vacancy referred to by the Cathaoirleach, I propose to introduce a motion on the supplementary Order Paper at the conclusion of No. 1 to fill this vacancy as the next meeting of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission is scheduled for 9 a.m. tomorrow, if that is agreeable to the House.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. B. Hayes

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Leader for facilitating the matter of Senator Higgins's resignation from the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and the replacement by a Fine Gael Senator. I appreciate the manner in which this matter has been facilitated to allow the new member to take up his or her duties at the earliest possible time.

Many Fianna Fáil members were shocked to hear the comments made yesterday by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on the possibility that Fianna Fáil might do a deal with the IRA after the next election.

Ms Feeney

That is rubbish.

Mr. B. Hayes

May I ask the Leader ——

An Cathaoirleach

That would not be a fair question for the Leader.

Mr. B. Hayes

I have not even asked the question yet.

An Cathaoirleach

I have anticipated it.

Mr. B. Hayes

This is a matter of current controversy. I respect the leader of the Fianna Fáil group in this House, who comes from a very experienced background. Could the Leader put on the record her party's position on this issue? Most Fianna Fáil members throughout the country were shocked and disgusted to hear that their party would possibly coalesce with a paramilitary organisation after the next general election.

Ms Ormonde

We were not shocked.

Mr. B. Hayes

The issue needs clarification. I know Fianna Fáil wants to ditch the Progressive Democrats as soon as possible and produce a new partner.

Mr. Glynn

Wishful thinking.

Mr. B. Hayes

The people do not want Sinn Féin in Government for a long time. Will the Leader clarify the comments of the Minister for Foreign Affairs at the earliest juncture? Good people with democratic standing need to stand up for democratic values and not woo those who have done so much harm to our country.

I asked last week whether the Leader would inform the House when the Government intends to take Committee Stage of the Garda Síochána Bill 2004. She should provide this information not only because of the introduction of a Garda inspectorate, but also because of the important police partnerships that need to be set up throughout our communities.

Mr. O’Toole

I hope Fianna Fáil members around the country breathed a sigh of relief last night to find their leadership has found another way of staying in power after the next election, although I do not think they were that worried about it.

I recently raised an issue with the Leader to which she did not reply. I interpreted this to mean she wished to get some information on it. My question referred to the Committee on Article 35.4.1° which is considering the Curtin case. The committee was established by the Houses of the Oireachtas. I do not doubt that its members are carrying out an efficient job in so far as they can. I am also certain they will be hung out to dry at the end of the day, although that is not important at this stage. However, there should be an interim report on the workings and processes of the committee. A statement was made yesterday by the committee but I want the situation put formally on the record. It is important that we allow the committee to get on with its business but it is also important to monitor its progress. I ask for a report and an answer on this issue.

An Cathaoirleach

The terms of the motion passed by the House excludes discussion on this matter.

Mr. O’Toole

I accept your ruling, a Chathaoirligh. I am not discussing the issue but the establishment of a committee, the technical issues which arise from that and the relationship of this House with the committee. I asked the Leader a question and would be happy with her response. While I will not embarrass the House, I am not prepared to forget about this for two years.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair is of the opinion that such matters should be left to the committee.

Mr. O’Toole

I look forward to the Leader's response.

I am totally opposed to the points made by the new Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, though I wish her well in her difficult portfolio. I remind the House that parents have won all the cases bar one taken to establish rights to special needs assistance for their children. The one case lost led the Minister to go on air to state, "Don't any of you dare take a case again or we will make sure we catch you for costs." This is frightening people who are already under pressure.

If the Minister was to come to the House to tell us that any child professionally assessed to be in need of special support was receiving it, she would be right. In the event of a professional assessment determining that a child requires special needs assistance, I continue to advise parents that the only way they will get it, if not from the Department, is by going to the courts. That is the sad reality. I put two cases on the record on Second Stage of the Disability Bill and I intend to add to that on Committee Stage.

Mr. Ryan

On the issue raised by Senator Brian Hayes, the Irish people are in the Thirty-two Counties and a significant proportion of them have voted for Sinn Féin. If the DUP is prepared to share Government with Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland, the issue is not whether Fianna Fáil would do so but whether Sinn Féin would besmirch its commitment to left-wing values by joining with Fianna Fáil and keeping in power the sort of Government that has done so much damage to those it claims to support. I would put the question to Sinn Féin rather than Fianna Fáil because the latter will share power with anybody provided it has most of the power.

Dr. Mansergh

The Senator's party did good work with us ten years ago.

Mr. B. Hayes

The Senator was not with them then.

Mr. Wilson

They do not have the numbers.

Mr. Ryan

The other side of the House is easily provoked this morning.

At the UN millennium summit in New York in September 2000 the Taoiseach stated:

Today, on behalf of the Government and people of Ireland, I wish in this forum publicly to make a commitment to fully meeting the United Nations target of spending of 0.7% of GNP on official development assistance.

Last week, the little boy he made responsible for official development assistance decided that was not a promise.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not fair.

Mr. Ryan

Sorry, he is a big boy.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should withdraw that remark.

Mr. Ryan

I agree with the Chair that the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan, is not a little boy. I happily withdraw the remark which was a dreadful thing to say about him. I apologise to him and to anybody who was offended by it. Nevertheless, he said it was not a promise even though it was reiterated twice by the Taoiseach and it is part of the social partnership agreement and the programme for Government.

I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business that we devote the first hour of business this morning to a discussion on Government policy on overseas development aid. I cannot speak for anybody else but the Labour Party will ensure the Intoxicating Liquor Bill is still finished at 2 p.m. We will accommodate this if the Government allows one hour for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who will be in the House, to articulate Government policy on overseas development aid.

My assessment is that there is no Government policy, only Fianna Fáil policy and Progressive Democrats policy. The Progressive Democrats must learn that Fianna Fáil's side of the deal is to give it the tax cuts it wants while the Progressive Democrats' side of the deal is to give Fianna Fáil the expenditure priorities it wants. The Progressive Democrats has lost out. The Government has broken perhaps the most solemn commitment into which the Taoiseach ever entered. In a casual chat, a junior Minister announced it was not really a promise. They should be ashamed of themselves and some are perhaps.

Ms Ormonde

I wish to highlight a dispute between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment regarding the new framework for qualifications for craft persons. While FÁS qualifications are the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, there is confusion and many people have asked me at what level the bachelor degree should be awarded. The Leader should ask whichever Minister has responsibility to come to the House to discuss this issue. It is the beginning of an academic year and it is important that the issue is cleared up.

Mr. Finucane

The issue of one-off houses has been brought sharply into focus by the case of the holiday home of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. While the debate on that case is ongoing, I am aware of a young couple who, having paid €40,000 some years ago for a site, have been turned down for permission to build a house because it is classified as ribbon development near an urban community. They have lost the €40,000 and the planning permission.

Over a year ago, the Taoiseach and the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, stated there would be changes in the approach to one-off housing. However, the guidelines in my local authority area have become even more stringent since then. As the new Minister, Deputy Roche, has stated he greatly favours one-off houses and has been in conflict with Dúchas, he should come to the House soon to outline what the approach to one-off housing will be. He should put this issue to rest and get clarification from local authorities.

Dr. Mansergh

Members should be careful with what they say in the House and should be conscious they will be listened to North and South of the Border. We are trying hard to create a situation whereby the DUP will be willing to enter Government with Sinn Féin. This will only happen under certain stringent conditions, including that paramilitarism ceases in all its forms. It is unhelpful to suggest that even if all that happens, that a priori on principle Sinn Féin will still be ineligible for Government. We must separate out two issues. There is the issue of eligibility to be in Government in conformity with constitutional requirements, and there is the separate issue of whether there is policy compatibility between parties that would make them want or not want to go into coalition. The parties in Government at present are likely to go before the electorate and seek re-election in two to three years time, and I believe they have a very good chance of being re-elected.

Mr. B. Hayes

Senators should realise that this is a sovereign State, not merely a Parliament.

Mr. Ross

I raise an issue which has been causing me an enormous amount of concern in recent times. It is that despite the setting up of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority to examine the activities of the banks, this body appears to be failing to police them properly. The House may or may not be aware that, although IFSRA is doing a particularly conscientious job, it is failing to detect more and more excesses by financial institutions. There is something seriously wrong with the structure that this can happen. AIB was recently involved in a case where hidden charges on a mental handicap association in Kerry were revealed at the weekend and the bank had to repay in excess of €210,000. What is worrying is not the isolated case where the bank repaid hidden charges but, first, that these were discovered by independent auditors and not by the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority and, second, that it is quite obvious to me and to others that this is not an isolated case and that despite legislation the banks are continually loading hidden charges on institutions not only on good charities such as the one I mentioned, but on individuals and getting away with it. It is a problem this House must attack in legislation.

An Cathaoirleach

We cannot have a debate.

Mr. Ross

I ask the Leader to invite the relevant Minister here to review, not necessarily by way of a motion but by way of questions or statements, the progress of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority and to suggest remedies for the continuing scandals, including the one involving this charity, which continue to hit the financial services sector.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

It would be timely to have a debate in this House on Northern Ireland because it is very difficult for us to interact on the Order of Business on such an important issue. I recall that there was criticism in this House when the DUP emerged as the major Unionist party after the last local elections. Some of those criticisms bordered on the anti-democratic. However, if the Unionist population wishes the DUP to represent it, that is democracy. In the same way Sinn Féin emerged as the major Nationalist party in the North. What the Minister said yesterday was very balanced and unambiguous. I agree fully with Senator Mansergh that this is a very sensitive issue. There are still many elements of the peace process to be put in place. It therefore behoves us to play a positive role. I suggest not only that we have a debate soon on Northern Ireland but that we debate the issue regularly. Perhaps the Leader will consider that suggestion.

Mr. McHugh

I ask for the Leader's positive and timely intervention regarding allegations of malpractice in the fishing industry in Donegal. There is a very credible fishing industry in Donegal which is the backbone of the fishing industry in this State. As its credibility is at stake, a speedy investigation is necessary. We do not want it dragged out. I ask the Leader to get in touch with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and Donegal's Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, and make a timely intervention. This investigation must not be allowed to be dragged out. There are good people involved in the industry and we do not want it damaged.

Mr. Mooney

I endorse Senator Ryan's comments on overseas development aid. Given the important nature of the initiative and the statements of the new Minister of State, I am sure the Leader would agree that it would be useful to invite the Minister to the House for a debate on overseas development aid, especially in light of the forthcoming budget.

Senator Ryan and I would agree on many issues in this area and I greatly respect his views. However, it seems that the Minister's statements are being distorted to a great degree. He said he intended to push for a multi-annual envelope as part of the Estimates debate. I have no doubt he will succeed in that and there will be a return to multi-annual spending which was absent for a number of years primarily owing to the economic downturn.

It must be remembered by the House that the Taoiseach's statement was made 12 months before the events of 11 September 2001 which had economic implications and worldwide repercussions. I do not for one moment suggest that there will be any reneging on this issue, but that the Minister of State has injected a note of economic realism into the debate. He has welcomed the cross-party support he received at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs yesterday. I am not sure whether Senator Ryan was present, but he made his position quite clear.

This is an extremely important issue for this country in terms of its image. I agree with the comments that we do not do war, we do peace and we do it very well and that we do human rights and do them very well. This country has an obligation to maintain its commitments to the Third World. I am confident the Minister of State will deliver on these important commitments. However, I ask once again that the Leader give serious consideration to having an early debate on overseas development aid and this country's enormous contribution to improving the lot of people in the Third World.

Mr. McCarthy

I second the amendment moved by my party leader this morning.

As regards overseas development aid, the Taoiseach made clear commitments not only to the United Nations but to the social partners. There was also a very clear commitment in the programme for Government. The Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, said it was not a promise. The Government cannot have it both ways. It cannot on the one hand make a commitment to a number of high profile groups to fulfil its obligations in this area and, on the other hand, get the Minister of State, after only a few days in office, to do its dirty work and announce that it was not an electoral promise. I would like clarity on that matter.

Regarding the recruitment of 2,000 gardaí, there has been a debate in recent days which suggests that given the rate of annual retirement and intake in Templemore, it would be physically impossible to increase the number of gardaí by 2,000. Crime is largely confined to urban areas but the weekend before last in Dunmanway, a rural town 40 miles from Cork city, two gardaí were stabbed. Two members from the same station were viciously attacked by a gang in a village last Christmas. This station is short-staffed because of a number of retirements and transfers and the events I described are quite clearly the reverberations of the absence of Garda manpower in rural towns which is taking its toll. I would like a statement from the Leader regarding the possibility of getting the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to the House for a debate on the issue.

An Cathaoirleach

Many Senators are offering.

Mr. McCarthy

I want to touch on one issue raised by Senator McHugh. The backbone of the fishing industry is west Cork, not Donegal.

Dr. M. Hayes

In passing, I support Senator Ó Murchú's request for a debate on Northern Ireland. It would be timely and helpful.

I raise an issue in which I have only a general cultural interest, but it touches on an important part of our national heritage. Before it is too late, will the Leader arrange a debate on the siting of a road in County Meath? There must be a way out of this. It is causing great concern to the archaeological community and to others. I wish to share with the House the words of a prominent Nationalist journalist who excoriated those who wished to put a road near Tara and claimed they would be execrated by future generations. The writer was Thomas Davis in The Nation in 1845. It has been an old problem.

Mr. Norris

I support the calls for a debate on overseas development aid. Senator Ryan was right to draw the attention of the House to this matter. However, his description of the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, as a boy was not a great contribution, although the Minister is somewhat younger in years than Senator Ryan or myself.

Members of all parties at the committee on foreign affairs unanimously passed a motion, in the names of Deputy Michael D. Higgins and myself, asking for the commitment to be lived up to. The matter should be approached in this constructive manner. The Minister of State spoke of having to be realistic about the issue which sounded warning bells and he did not give an absolute commitment. I wonder if it was done, like in the sophisticated manner of his father, as an attempt to get the strong backing of the foreign affairs committee, which he did get, that we must live up to the clear commitments given by the Taoiseach to the UN. There is no getting out of it. Senator Ross and I have just tabled a motion with which all Members can agree, asking the Government to live up to this commitment. There is no great difficulty in this and it will help the young Minister of State who I wish well in his task.

With regard to the North of Ireland, I find myself in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Senator Mansergh. When the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, said that coalition with Sinn Féin would be possible if they gave up their arms, I asked myself what is wrong with that.

Mr. Glynn

Absolutely nothing.

Mr. Norris

Is that not an objective to be desired? I have no problem with this. Coming as I do from a southern Unionist background and having been threatened over the years by the IRA, if I have no difficulty with it. I do not see why should Senator Ryan have one.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Mr. Dooley

The Senator should come over to this side of the House.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Ryan does not have a problem.

Mr. Coghlan

Bring them on.

Mr. Ryan

A Chathaoirligh, I wish to make——

Mr. Norris

As the elderly Senator from Cork wishes to make a point and in deference to his age I will yield.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will have to conclude.

Mr. Norris

Can we have a debate on the Middle East? I raised this last week in the House and again at the foreign affairs committee. I am aware of a situation where schoolchildren are attacked by settlers with baseball bats and knives to prevent them from attending school. This is exactly what happened in Holy Cross. If we feel about that in the North of Ireland, we should feel about in the Middle East.

Ms Cox

Last week Senator Lydon called for a debate on equal rights for women. The Cathaoirleach and I recently attended an IPU conference in Geneva on equal and human rights for women throughout the world. There is urgency to this debate. In Swaziland recently a female student was attacked at a bus rank by a gang of bus conductors who repeatedly raped her because she was wearing a mini-skirt. Those same conductors had passed a policy banning mini-skirts because they were distracting and encouraging lustful thoughts. If this world has not moved on and if this country in its efforts to improve the way of life for women throughout the world cannot pass some note of condemnation, then it is a sad world. I ask for a debate on equal and human rights for women in Ireland and the world.

Mr. Coghlan

I support Senator Ross's call for a debate on IFSRA. It would be timely if progress were reviewed with regard to its supervisory role and work. All Members will agree that the Kerry Parents and Friends Association is a worthy charity and is deservedly held in high regard. I know the great work it has done over the years. It would be a sad state if it, or any other worthy charity, was ripped off by a financial institution. We should examine IFSRA's work and its role.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Coghlan, other Senators are offering.

Mr. Coghlan

I wish to raise one other matter. The Cathaoirleach knows how brief I always am.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will be briefer today.

Mr. Coghlan

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, sounds encouraging on the issue of one-off rural housing. I agree with Senator Finucane's call for the Leader to arrange a debate with the Minister on this matter. I am sure it would be fruitful and interesting. One final matter——

An Cathaoirleach

No. I have to be fair to other Senators. I call on Senator Kitt.

Mr. Kitt

I join in the calls for debates on Northern Ireland and overseas development aid. There was an all-party agreement on a motion supporting Ireland achieving 0.7% of GNP in overseas development aid by 2007. Some months ago, the sub-committee on development co-operation, of which I am Chairman, passed a similar motion. I hope that this all-party support will encourage the Minister of State to achieve what we all want.

Dr. Henry

When the Government was seeking election to a seat on the UN Security Council, Irish diplomats went all over the world, particularly to developing countries, looking for votes. Ireland received a huge vote and was subsequently elected to the Security Council. Our commitment regarding development aid was important in securing those votes and I support calls for a debate on this issue. Recently, there was an excellent debate at the committee on foreign affairs. Further support for the new Minister of State would be given if the Seanad showed it was behind the commitment of 0.7% of GNP to development aid.

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear.

Mr. Browne

I ask the Leader to arrange a debate with the Ministers for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on wireless technology and the move by telephone companies to install tiny antennae on buildings such as nursing homes. It is a growing issue as more data is now transferred through wireless technology. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources must examine ComReg's budget. I understand it has already spent this year's funding and has no money for the next three months for independent audits.

Mr. Quinn

I ask the Leader to draw the attention of the Minister responsible for road safety to a report issued by Barnardos, an organisation which looks after the safety and welfare of children. The report was published in Belfast or London but I heard about it this morning. It has called for road safety to be enhanced by the introduction of more speed cameras not on motorways, but on roads where children are being injured and killed. Barnardos argues that such an action will be a good return on investment as it works. There has been a large increase in the number of deaths on our roads. The only time it dropped was immediately after the introduction of penalty points. However, it has increased dramatically again. We can do something about this situation.

Mr. Norris

What is needed are sensible and coherent speed limits as the Minister agreed during a debate in this House. However, we still do not have them.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris has already made a contribution.

Mr. J. Phelan

Will the Fianna Fáil Senators make up their minds in calling for a debate on Northern Ireland? Senator Ó Murchú rightly proposed a debate on Northern Ireland moments after Senator Mansergh said we should not talk about it at all for fear of upsetting people.

Dr. Mansergh

I did not say that. I said people should be sensitive to what they say.

An Cathaoirleach

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Mr. J. Phelan

They should get on message on this issue. My colleague in the other House, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, released information that the current rate of increase in the number of gardaí is 80 to 81 per year. How does the Government propose to square that with its commitment of 2,000 extra gardaí in its lifetime? At the current rate, it would take over 25 years to reach the figure of 2,000 extra gardaí.

Will the Leader arrange for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House to explain his, and the Government's, seemingly renewed commitment to community employment schemes? We have heard much soft talk in recent days and I would be interested to know, as I am sure would other Members, what the Minister proposes to do to reverse the cuts in those schemes in recent years.

On a related issue — it is one with which the Cathaoirleach would be familiar as a rural dweller like myself — the rural employment scheme was announced in last December's budget with much fanfare but, as of today, I understand fewer than 300 people have been employed under that scheme which was supposed to employ 2,500 farmers. What will the Government do to ensure that scheme is implemented? It made such a hullabaloo about it when it was announced last December.

Mr. U. Burke

Last week I asked if the Minister for Education and Science would waive the legal costs incurred by parents who unsuccessfully sought adequate help and educational facilities for their child and I very much welcome that she has done so. However, the Minister's statement yesterday, which she reiterated today, is very serious. She warned solicitors and parents not to go down the road of litigation. If the Minister believes litigation is the first call of many parents who have been put through the wringer in demanding improvements in their children's education, she is totally removed from the reality. It is important we highlight the fact the Minister said that the costs of litigation will be taken from the resources which were supposedly ring-fenced for those with special educational needs. If she is saying that she intends to waste money on litigation rather than ring-fence the resources made available for special needs under the Act, it is time she came to the House and explained herself in regard to the implementation of that legislation.

Ms O’Rourke

Senator Brian Hayes, the Leader of the Opposition, asked if we were all shocked by the comments of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. We were not. Of all the Ministers, the Minister for Foreign Affairs is extremely precise in what he says. If one rereads or listens again to what he said, one will note what he said was that if Sinn Féin fulfilled the requirements — its democratic prowess has already been shown — it would be a consideration but only under those circumstances. That is what is important. We will endeavour to ask the Minister to come to the House for a debate on Northern Ireland.

Senator Brian Hayes also asked about the Garda Síochána Bill. The amendments, of which there are many, are still being processed by the Office of the Attorney General but there is a delay. It is expected that they will be sorted out and ready for debate by the end of this term. That would be helpful.

Mr. B. Hayes

Which amendments?

Ms O’Rourke

The amendments to the Garda Síochána Bill. We have taken Second Stage.

Mr. B. Hayes

We have not started Committee Stage.

Ms O’Rourke

I know, but many amendments have been tabled for Committee Stage and they are being processed.

Mr. B. Hayes

Are they Government amendments?

Ms O’Rourke

I understand amendments have been tabled all round. There is a delay but it is expected the amendments will be ready by the end of this term, which is fair enough. We should have the Bill before us this term and we will press to ensure that is the case.

Senator O'Toole raised the matter of an interim report by the committee set up by both Houses to look into the Judge Curtin case. The Deputy Leader, who is on the committee, has informed me it is meeting at the moment. The terms of reference state that it will report back to the House when a report is ready. The committee does not envisage an interim report.

I was asked about special educational needs, in particular the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004 which we passed, and about the Minister for Education and Science's comments this morning. The Minister was particularly clear. She wants to keep money to serve the needs of people rather than spend it on litigation.

Mr. O’Toole

The Government is challenging all the cases. It has lost every case except one. What was said this morning gives a completely misleading impression.

Ms O’Rourke

I thought the Minister made herself clear this morning when she replied on radio. The case which gave rise to the interview was the one where it appeared the Department would not underwrite the costs which were quite hefty.

Senator Ryan brought up the matter of Sinn Féin. As stated by Senator Mansergh, Sinn Féin has a democratic mandate but it cannot fulfil it until it gives an absolute commitment, both North and South, to disarm. That is what the Minister for Foreign Affairs said clearly. It is interesting what people read into one sentence rather than another. The Minister was absolutely clear. In an environment where Sinn Féin fulfils that commitment beyond any doubt, it would be eligible to sit in any parliament because it has a democratic mandate.

Mr. B. Hayes

Government is the issue.

Ms O’Rourke

Senator Ryan also brought up the matter of overseas development aid and the 0.7% of GNP promised by the Taoiseach at the United Nations. He asked that we get a proper commitment on that matter. I do not mind — I do not think any of us would — what appellation he gives the Minister of State. The Senator could be called "venerable" which would be another appellation.

Mr. Dardis

Senile would be another.

Mr. Ryan

I would not ask the Leader to withdraw that appellation.

Ms O’Rourke

To be venerable is very good.

Senator Ormonde raised the new framework of qualifications and a seeming dispute between the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Education and Science. We understand a European framework of qualifications is to be adopted by all colleges, including apprenticeships and all such gradings. The sooner that comes out, the better.

Senator Finucane asked about one-off housing, local authority planning permissions and if the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government could come to the House to explain his thoughts on that matter. That would be useful.

Senator Mansergh said the DUP has laid down conditions for entering into Government with Sinn Féin and referred to eligibility to be in Government. All parties go before the electorate from which they get their democratic mandates.

Senator Ross raised the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority's failure to detect errors made by financial institutions. An independent audit discovered the recent error. The Senator called for a debate on that matter.

Senator Ó Murchú said a debate on Northern Ireland would be helpful. We have made inquiries in that regard.

Senator McHugh referred to alleged malpractice in the fishing industry in Donegal and called for a speedy intervention by the Minister. The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, has responsibility for the marine and we will request that he comes to the House.

Senator Mooney referred to overseas development aid which has cross-party support. He stated that while we do not do war, we do human rights and do them well and must, in turn, make sure we fulfil our ODA requirements.

Senator McCarthy seconded Senator Ryan's amendment to the Order of Business. I think he proposed we would have a debate at 2 p.m.——

Mr. Ryan

It was for after the Order of Business.

An Cathaoirleach

We will come to that when the Leader has concluded.

Ms O’Rourke

I cannot get out to chase up anyone. Senator McCarthy also inquired when the 2,000 gardaí promised in the Fianna Fáil manifesto would be provided. As I understand it, that measure will be put forward by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the Estimates procedure.

Senator Maurice Hayes supported the call for debates on Northern Ireland and the road at Tara. He quoted what Thomas Davis said about a road at Tara. I agree such a debate would be useful. We have all begun to receive letters about the matter and would benefit from clarification thereon.

Senator Norris also called for a debate on ODA. He said we must live up to our commitment to 0.7% of GNP. He stated he would have no difficulty with Sinn Féin if it gave up its arms, which appears to be the general consensus here. He called for a debate on the Middle East, particularly as news emerges of what is being done to children as they go to school and so on.

Senator Cox wants a debate on equal rights and human rights for women, a subject on which she recently submitted a report to us.

Senator Coghlan referred to the Kerry Parents and Friends Association and IFSRA. Everybody knows this worthwhile charity and what it does. We would all agree with the point he made. He also concurred with Senator Finucane's comment on one-off housing.

Senator Kitt called for debates on Northern Ireland and ODA. Senator Henry made the point that when we were looking for a seat on the UN Security Council we paraded our commitment to 0.7% of GNP for overseas development aid and she reiterated the call for a debate on this matter.

Senator Browne wants the Estimate for the Commission for Communications Regulation to be examined. He also raised the issue of antennae. A recent Act addressed the matter of the height to which antennae could be erected.

Senator Quinn referred to the Barnardos report on road safety for children. I have not seen it but I will attempt to get it.

Senator John Phelan referred to the promised 2,000 extra gardaí, which I already mentioned. He wants the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House regarding community employment and rural employment schemes. He alleged that less than 300 jobs have been taken up under the rural employment scheme. Perhaps that is evidence of the current high level of employment.

Senator Ulick Burke welcomed the waiving of legal costs in the particular case to which the Minister for Education and Science referred this morning. We were all glad to hear that. She did not say the costs of litigation would come out of the budget for children with disabilities. She said money is tight, which it is in every area, and she does not want to see money wasted on litigation which could be more usefully deployed into the budget for children with disabilities. That is a very worthwhile aim which we would all favour. I thought the point of view she expressed on radio was extremely clear.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Ryan has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a one hour debate on the Government's policy on overseas development aid be taken before No. 1." Is the amendment being pressed?

Mr. Ryan

Yes.

Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 32.

Tá

• Bradford, Paul.
• Browne, Fergal.
• Burke, Paddy.
• Burke, Ulick.
• Coghlan, Paul.
• Cummins, Maurice.
• Finucane, Michael.
• Hayes, Brian.
• Henry, Mary.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McDowell, Derek.
• McHugh, Joe.
• Norris, David.
• O’Meara, Kathleen.
• O’Toole, Joe.
• Phelan, John.
• Quinn, Feargal.
• Ross, Shane.
• Ryan, Brendan.

Níl

• Bohan, Eddie.
• Brady, Cyprian.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Callanan, Peter.
• Cox, Margaret.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Dardis, John.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Feeney, Geraldine.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Glynn, Camillus.
• Hanafin, John.
• Hayes, Maurice.
• Kett, Tony.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Leyden, Terry.
• Lydon, Donal J.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Mansergh, Martin.
• Minihan, John.
• Mooney, Paschal C.
• Morrissey, Tom.
• Moylan, Pat.
• O’Brien, Francis.
• Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
• Ormonde, Ann.
• O’Rourke, Mary.
• Phelan, Kieran.
• Scanlon, Eamon.
• Walsh, Kate.
• White, Mary M.
• Wilson, Diarmuid.

Tellers: Tá, Senators McCarthy and O’Meara; Níl, Senators Minihan and Moylan.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.