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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 May 2006

Vol. 183 No. 17

Ageism Policy: Statements (Resumed).

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank the Leader, Senator O'Rourke, for facilitating this debate during Say No To Ageism week. I am sure the Minister of State will agree this has been has been one of the most interesting debates to have been held in this House. Every speaker has pushed out the boat and we are all agreed that a new approach to ageing is needed. The Equality Authority, as one of the sponsors of Say No To Ageism week, has pointed out that the two main complaints it receives from older people concern higher insurance costs and service provisions. Ageism is at play in both instances.

A semi-State body, VHI, charges those aged 64 or under a worldwide travel insurance charge of €49 but that charge increases to €149 for those turning 65. This black and white discriminatory practice is outrageous and does not reflect the graduated risks associated with normal ageing.

In respect of service provisions, the Equality Authority has stated that older people are being refused access to some public houses because they are deemed too old.

Are they too old to have a drink?

It appears that bar owners fear that well-mannered and respected older people will not fit in with younger clients, some of whom, as reports indicate, drink too much and become involved in anti-social behaviour. If an older person does not look the part in a sexy, jazzy bar, he or she is not allowed to enter.

I never knew about that.

Senator O'Rourke is here to learn new matters. Negative stereotyping is out of step with reality. Attending a meeting of the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs last February, the chair of the National Economic and Social Forum, Dr. Maureen Gaffney, stated:

Not only is our view of old age increasingly out of synch with the capabilities of older people, but we now know from psychological literature that...one can predict almost nothing about people on the basis of their age.

I will shortly be launching my policy document, A New Approach to Ageing, which will outline how the Government and society must deal with the major issues facing older people in Ireland today. I want to take this opportunity to raise a few of these issues.

Perhaps the clearest example of ageism in Irish society can be found in the health service where free BreastCheck screening for women ends at the age of 64 despite medical research that indicates that the risk of getting breast cancer increases with age. This policy is a symptom of the ageist view held by some that health treatments are better directed towards younger people. In May 2005 the National Council on Ageing and Older People produced a report entitled Perceptions of Ageism in Health and Social Services in Ireland. It involved research and interviews with 450 older people and 150 health and social services staff. I have many quotations from it but will read just one:

The older people consulted in this study cited numerous examples of having health complaints dismissed as part of the aging process. Many felt that their doctors were not taking their health needs and concerns seriously.

This is the point that Senator Kett made in his opening speech earlier, that he had explained to his father's GP that his problem was related to health and not age, and could be easily resolved. This is a shocking indictment of ageism in health and social service provision in Ireland.

I am now looking at community care options. Older people who fall ill have few care options and many see nursing home care as their only option in spite of Government policy. In 1988 the Department of Health produced a policy document entitled The Years Ahead, and this policy should have been carried out since then. There has been no revision of it and the policy, which was the ideal way older people should be looked after, has not been implemented. Although the policy specified that older people should stay in their homes and have a backup care support system, 50% of the budget spend on older people goes on residential care. This is the opposite to the policy. Although the money was to go into home care to keep people at home as long as possible, half of the €1 billion spent every year goes to residential care. We must redirect more resources into home care packages, home help and respite care services that reflect the wishes of older people, who want to stay in their own homes as long as they can.

Subventions are inadequate for people in nursing home care. There is a shortage of public beds while there is an oversupply of private beds. That will be news to Senators. Those who qualify for a public bed, but where none is available, must take one in a private nursing home, where weekly bed costs range from €700 to €1,000. As the ordinary maximum subvention is €190, the older person who cannot get a place in a public nursing home must produce €600 to €700 per week to pay for a private nursing home, or his or her family must pay it. Yesterday I received from the National Council on Ageing and Older People a document entitled Improving the Quality of Life for Older People in Long-Stay Care Settings in Ireland, which goes deeply into the topic on which Senator Norris spoke. It compares private and public nursing homes and finds that in many cases the public nursing homes are better because the ratio of nurses to assistants is greater.

There is no profit line.

I recommend all Senators read this. It is fantastic. To return to what Senator Quinn said, in my document I will have approximately 19 propositions on which the Government should deliver. The first deals with mandatory retirement.

The Senator has one minute remaining.

It is worthwhile. We have to get it all in.

We must hear this.

For God's sake the Leas-Chathaoirleach must listen. I must get it on the record. We are trying to create a revolution in society. We are all getting older and want to be feted, looked after and appreciated. Civil servants who entered the public service before April 2004 are forced to retire at the age of 65 regardless of their wishes. I have had approximately six public meetings in the Dublin South-East constituency on a new approach to ageing and ageism and there have been continual outbursts of emotion from attendees whose hearts are broken because they do not want to retire. Perhaps more people want to retire, but a considerable number who are reaching the age of 65 do not want to retire for many reasons including economic, intellectual stimulation and social networking — three good arguments for staying in a job. Most older people love their jobs and do not find them a bore.

I propose that mandatory retirement in the public and private sector must go and that we introduce phased retirement. One day a person has a job and the next day he or she has no job. A gradual form of retirement should be introduced, for example, working every second week. People drop dead after retirement because they loved their jobs. Professor Seamus Caulfield spoke at one of my meetings and said that a person goes to bed at the age of 64 as an asset to the State and wakes up on his or her 65th birthday as a liability to the State, which has to start paying his or her pension.

I do not want to detain the Leas-Chathaoirleach, who has been patient.

The Senator has 18 more recommendations.

They will be in the document.

I am not going to tell the House all my recommendations. Senator Bradford must be joking. I am sweating blood and tears over my document so I am not going to throw them all away. However, I would like to put something on the record that Senator O'Rourke and I discussed this morning.

The Senators should listen to this one.

It fascinates me that politicians and party leaders have not woken up to the fact that 72% of people over the age of 50 vote. This is the highest proportion of voters of any age group in society. We spoke earlier about companies selling products to younger people. If they get some common sense the Government and politicians will sell their policies to the people over 50, of whom 72% vote.

I am glad of the opportunity to say a few words and to follow Senator White, who will recall that in last week's debate we discussed facials in the follow-up to her contribution.

Who was talking about facials?

It related to migrant workers and the service work they do. I listened with great interest to Senator White and particularly her indication that she is about to publish a document on ageism and the elderly. Her previous such document related to child care. We have had extensive debates on child care and services for young people while at the earlier part of life's spectrum we have had vigorous policy debates on the unborn. These are all serious and appropriate matters.

It is opportune that we debate ageism. There is a fine line to be drawn between ageism and services for the elderly and the debate will overlap. We must address the concept of ageism, as opposed to the challenges faced by the elderly. We live in the Western hemisphere and are very dominated by its culture. If one were to try to sum up Western culture, the two words that would spring to one's mind would be "productivity" and "disposability". Our society and economy are run on the basis of productivity. At the other end of the scale, it is a question of how disposable a concept, politician or even a person might be. Given the mix of productivity and disposability, we must try to address the needs of our maturing citizens. It is very opportune that this is Say No To Ageism week and it is important that we listen closely and address the problems that exist.

Approximately 15 years ago, I read a very fine autobiography called Wild Swans by a Chinese lady whose name I cannot remember. The book covers the era from the Chinese revolution to the time in which it was written. It is a brief history of China and its society. One aspect of it that I recall very strongly and which had a great impact on me was the description of the elderly and the role they played in China. The people of that vast country, which has many faults and failings but is enjoying great economic growth and advancing to some degree politically, have great respect for the elderly. Not only do they play a great role in family life but also in village, community and political life.

My former colleague in the other House and friend of all of us, PJ Sheehan from Cork South-West, often remarks in jest when asked if he will be standing again for election to the Dáil that Chinese politicians only come into their own when they are 90. It is ideal that we are talking about ageism in the Oireachtas because politics is probably the one occupation in which a person's age is not the main issue. It presents no great barrier regardless of whether a candidate is 21, 75 or 80. I was 21 years of age at my first meeting as a member of Cork County Council and I sat beside a former member of this House, John L. O'Sullivan, who was 84 on that very day. We were both equal members of the council and nobody asked us our ages. Fortunately politics seems to be almost exempt from ageism, and rightly so, and we must now try to spread that exemption across society.

Pensions, housing and options for work have been mentioned and all require further study. Most people are speaking about retirement age. Senator White made the point that one goes to bed at 64 as a so-called plus to society——

A useful member of society.

——but is deemed to be of neutral value, at best, if not of negative worth, a few years later. We must certainly change this attitude. If people want to work in the conventional workplace beyond the age of 65, we must make provision for them.

I heard the Minister for Social and Family Affairs talk about ageism last week and he tied it to the issue of pensions and perhaps deferred pensions. This subject requires in-depth study. The Pensions Board may be considering the issue at present and I hope it will be positive in its recommendations and allow people to work for as long as they are willing and able.

The concept of step-down retirement must be taken on board. Consider the position of those who lose their jobs, be they in their 40s or 50s. We rightly feel very sorry for those who go to work on a Friday and are redundant or unemployed on a Monday. We try to offer them resources and supports, including financial supports, and also retraining to prepare them for employment elsewhere. The very same problem is faced by those who have to retire from work at 65 or 66 because of their age. On retirement they are consigned to some sort of economic scrapheap. This is very unfair and needs to be addressed.

Care of the elderly is a separate subject but requires further study in respect of ageism. Many studies have been carried out and I agree wholeheartedly with attempting to allow people to remain in their own homes for as long as possible. Every report published promotes this concept but we do not do so at a political level. The Opposition is either asking for extra money to be poured into the nursing home subvention scheme or the Government side is telling us about the money being provided or about the extra beds, including public beds, that are being made available. These should only comprise a small part of the solution and we should be trying to concentrate on services for people who wish to remain at home, be it through additional home help payments or changes to the means-testing system to allow the carer's allowance to be paid to a greater number of family members. Society would benefit to a degree that we do not wish to quantify from having an increased number of elderly people looked after in their own homes by their own families. This should be our political priority.

The nursing home and public hospital bed solutions are poor second-bests. They represent something of a political excuse for our failure as a society to promote the idea of allowing people to remain where they are undoubtedly happiest, that is, at home with or near their families and in their communities, supported by their neighbours. Any initiative to achieve this will have my full support.

Housing issues obviously affect the elderly. When we make inquiries on behalf of middle-aged or elderly people looking for local authority accommodation, we get the distinct impression that they are not a political priority. Those who are advancing in years still have housing needs, as well as human needs, and we must try to be more generous. It is a question of attitude and not just of valuing the contribution the elderly have made to building our nation. It is a matter of recognising and anticipating the ongoing contribution they make to society in all its aspects.

Senator White referred to the voting turnout among various age groups and warned that we should take strong political note of what is called the "grey vote". This concept is now universally accepted and we should take note of it. We should do so not just because of some sort of political threat but because of the benefits that would accrue to our country from ridding society of ageism and valuing people for what they are worth and what they can contribute, regardless of their age.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. This is a very interesting debate and is probably the sort of debate the Seanad can engage in best. There is no political division and it is a question of our trying to combat ageism such that everybody, be they 25, 55 or 75, can play a full role in society. All age groups can do so. Although not everybody in the House might agree with the politics of Ronald Reagan, they should note that he became President of the United States when he was 70 and was re-elected at 74. This demonstrates that people sometimes allow limits to be imposed upon themselves. We should try to break down the mental barriers and say that age is no limit.

I am pleased the Seanad is debating this issue. Senator White suggested the topic to me and I found the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Fahey, most willing to attend the House. I find the billboards advertising Say No To Ageism week very attractive. One would be a long time blowing out all those candles. This issue is becoming prominent and many interesting points have been made by Members. The most telling way of making a point is by telling a personal story. This may have no relevance in the wider realm but I thought it was interesting.

When I was going before the selection convention those who wanted another candidate to be elected, namely, the incumbent's supporters, used my age against me. Although he was no Lochinvar himself, he was not involved. The first instance of this was a bogus telephone call to "Liveline". I agreed to take a call from the show because I believe one must set out one's stall and state one's case. Joe Duffy was genuinely puzzled that I was a candidate and asked whether I would prefer to put my feet up or go on a cruise. I can sail my boat anytime I want to and I do not wish to go on a cruise. It is difficult to believe people would think that way.

Even though that episode worked overwhelmingly in my favour, campaigners were told to use it against my campaign. They approached a cumann secretary who, in Fianna Fáil parlance, controlled the three votes. They suggested that it was ridiculous that I was a candidate. When asked why, they trotted out the age issue. He went into his kitchen and emerged with his lovely wife. He stated that his wife was the same age as Mary O'Rourke and asked if he should discard her. The candidate's campaigners left and I received the three votes.

Ageism is a stupid policy. There are horses for courses. Some are old at 20 and others are young at 90. I have met young fogeys one wants to encourage to get a life and have met older people who are more lively than many young people.

Hear, hear.

A particular Minister says "Hello, dear" every time he meets me. I have made a vow that the next time he says it I will slap his face publicly. I do not care who is coming or going.

That is assault.

He has been warned.

Indeed. Ageism puts a tag on a person whose qualities do not bear witness to that tag. Some people may wish to put their feet up at a certain age. Not everyone has to run the marathon and if they wish to go on a cruise, that is fine. Putting someone in a corner because of his or her age and saying "stay there dear" is a ridiculous policy. It is better to confront people who attempt this and to argue that wisdom, knowledge and experience have a price tag, one which enables people to progress. When life expectancy was only 70 perhaps it was a good idea to put up one's feet at 65. Life expectancy is much greater now and people are in the 80s when they hang up their boots.

Keeping one's mind and body active keeps one in better shape. When my mother, God rests her soul, was 84 she played bridge five nights a week until the week before she died. She had represented Ireland in bridge 50 years earlier. She was capable of calculating the hands, the suits, the points she had and the necessary bids to make until the week before she died in hospital. She also lived on her own and was glad to return home on Sundays after we took her out. Her mind was sharp, which is a blessing because acuity of mind is of great importance.

Being in one's home is a great blessing. Nursing homes bring to mind people getting up, getting dressed and sitting in a corner all day, gazing out the window with no stimulation. Some people have medical difficulties and must be cared for in nursing homes but old people are better off if they can be cared for in their own homes.

We must focus on people's attitudes when debating this issue. Not intending any offence to Senator Bradford, the idea that youth is the repository of all that is good in life is quite ridiculous. Youth has vim and freshness but not experience, which allows one to stay the course and be active.

Many in the media do not understand that one should not espouse ageism. Joe Duffy did not mean any harm but another chat show host, who presents "The Late Late Show", interviewed me when I lost the last election. He told me, with relish, that he expected me to be finished with politics. When I asked why he referred to my age. I asked if he had spoken to Mr. Brian Farrell recently, who was ten years older than me but was still capable of grilling people with his piercing eyes on television programmes. Mr. Gay Byrne, who is 72, was interviewed by the same chat show host last week. Was Mr. Gay Byrne asked if he was too old for his new job? Not at all. Mr. Gay Byrne had the audience in the palm of his hands within minutes and won the encounter. Unconsciously, those in the media engage in ageism.

Ageism must be combatted in terms of services but also in the way we regard older people. We do not want patronage and we do not want "hello dear". We are adults like everyone else.

I hope it is not Senator O'Rourke's nephews who refer to her as "dear".

No, all of us were reared properly to treat people with respect so the Leas-Chathaoirleach can take that idea out of his silly little mind.

Those of us who believe ageism is incorrect must be clear that we will not entertain it. I appeared on a programme on NewsTalk 106 at lunchtime and referred to the point made by Senator White, namely, that 71.9% of those over 50 vote, compared with 24% of the 18 to 26 year age group. Our job is to get votes so we should appeal to that section. Anyone considering denigrating older people should think of the cumann secretary who neatly disposed of the three people at his door.

I congratulate Senators White and O'Rourke on arranging this debate. I also welcome the Minister of State and his contribution. The ushers in Leinster House are noted for their intelligence and tact, an example of which I encountered the other day. I had been to get my bus pass and I was showing it to two ushers in the hall when one of them said "I did not realise they were giving them to under age people now."

The Senator should have said "Only to Senators".

Although it is quite reasonable to walk from O'Connell Street to the House, I took the bus for two stops to see if the bus pass worked, which it did. Members will be surprised where they will see me going with it now.

Not if there is a strike.

Thank God the trains are starting to run again.

It is very unfortunate people talk about so many negative aspects of getting older because there are so many positive ones as well. One is supposed to have a bit more time, although I have not noticed that yet but I am sure I will shortly. Senator O'Rourke spoke about the reason she is running again for the Dáil and I was delighted to hear she believes she has a huge contribution to make, which she has. However, I will not run again for the Seanad because there are so many other things I want to do. I have loved being a Member of the House for the past 14 years but there are many other things I must do. One thinks when one gets older, one will have more time but I have found one does not and that things creep up on one all the time. People keep saying to me that I have time on my hands now because I have retired from medicine and they ask if I would mind doing this or that.

They say "Don't forget to put your feet up and go on a cruise".

I have not had a chance to do so yet.

It was interesting to hear reports of what the Minister for Finance stated this morning that our demography is good and that we still have many young people. In many parts of Europe, older people are obliged to continue to work because businesses could not keep going without them. I was in a hotel in a small village in Bavaria last year and it seemed it was being run by people who were all well over 60 years of age, or perhaps over 70 years of age. I was going out for the evening and I was asked if I would be late back.

If the Senator met a nice Bavarian, she would be.

I said I would certainly be back by 9 p.m. or 10 p.m. but I was told I would have to take a key because they had to go to bed so they could get up at 7 a.m. These people had full and active lives. I do not believe anyone worries about getting older but only about the ill health one may run into. It is important the rest of the population concentrates on that area of our health system. One very rarely hears about people being refused any type of medical treatment because of their age. A friend of mine who is in his 90s went into hospital recently to get a new pacemaker. He was asked if he wanted a three year or a nine year one to which he replied he would like the nine year one because he did not want to come back in three years. One's attitude towards illness is important, although some of us are blessed with better health than others.

We need to address some areas of the health service. BreastCheck should be extended as soon as possible to cover those who are 70 years of age because the current cut-off point of 65 years is very early. When it is being rolled out in other parts of the country, it should be extended to 70 years of age.

The problem of hiring cars has been raised, which is serious. One cannot hire a car once one is over 70 years of age. A considerable number of tourists come to this country and many Irish people go abroad. I go abroad quite a bit with a group of people and I am now one of the young ones who must do much of the driving. It is an issue at which we must look because people are being discriminated against for no other reason than their age rather than their lack of ability or otherwise.

There is just not enough time to do everything and sometimes I regret I take on so much. The other day I bought two books on the birds of Ireland. I could recognise lichens, wild flowers, leaves and so on but I could not recognise many birds. I put one book in the car and the other in the kitchen. I think I saw a mistle thrush this morning. I had the book to hand but I did not have my glasses so it was difficult to identify it. There is a problem in regard to the decrease in the number of thrushes in this country and we must all keep our wits about us so we can let the ornithologists know if we see one. One can take on many useful projects as one get older.

The poems we learned about old age when we were young were extraordinary they were so doleful. I am sure some Members will remember the poem "To Daffodils".

Fair daffodils, we weep to see

You haste away so soon;

As yet the early-rising sun

Has not attain'd his noon.

Stay, stay

Until the hasting day

Has run

But to the evensong,

And, having pray'd together, we

Will go with you along.

[The next verse is even more gloomy.]

We have a short time to stay, as you,

We have as short a spring;

As quick a growth to meet decay,

As you, or anything.

Everything was about our lives fading. I much prefer the poem such as the one about the woman who said she was going to become eccentric and wear a red dress and purple hat.

I know that one.

It is wonderful. I always thought that poem was much better.

Or the Dylan Thomas poem entitled "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night".

That poem included the line "Rage, rage against the dying of the light". Those poems are much better than the other sad one. I loved the poem about the old woman in Italy who was going to refuse to be moved from the square. She was not able to move around very much but she could take part in what was going on the square. They were trying to move her to a house on the hill but she was going to resist.

We must determinedly resist any changes in our lifestyle which people want us to make. We have a responsibility to help those of our colleagues who are finding it more difficult to resist and to help them to ensure they get everything to which they are entitled and that they continue to mind their bank accounts and pay their bills. It is always good to try to keep control of financial affairs and to ensure older people do so. If one loses control of something such as one's financial affairs, a huge part of one's life is taken away. Anytime I have been involved in financial dealings with older people, I make sure I deal with them and not with go-betweens who sometimes believe one should let them take over.

I agree with Senator O'Rourke in that I would be terrified of going on a cruise. What would one do if the people were dreadful and one wanted to get off the ship? How would one manage that?

I very much agree with Senator O'Rourke in that regard.

I would not be terrified. It would be boring.

No one wants to be sent on a cruise. We want to be allowed to do what we feel like doing and a great number of us have a huge contribution to make. Anyone running for election should be careful to be nice to older people because as Senator O'Rourke and others said, we are very good at voting. We usually continue to live in the same place which, with the electoral register in its current state, is a big help. We are also usually very good at getting involved in the process of keeping our democracy going. Again, I commend Senators White and O'Rourke on this debate.

I welcome the Minister of State. The topic has been well articulated by many of the speakers. It is a timely debate, particularly given the recent Say No To Ageism week which was promoted by the Health Service Executive, the Equality Authority, the National Council on Ageing and Older People and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is good to see such an initiative.

As has been said by a number of speakers, it is about changing the culture. In the past 15 years we have seen, in the number of larger corporations in particular, a trend towards the American way of trying to shift people into retirement in their early 50s. The banks have been particularly active in this regard. Often a valuable resource is lost as a consequence of such action.

I agree with Senator Quinn that often as people reach a certain age they may not wish to work a disciplined 40-hour week and scope should be given for phased retirement so people can scale back but continue to participate. It is sad to see the health of people who worked actively all their lives go quickly downhill on reaching retirement age at 65 years, and leaving their place of employment. This may be because they have made no plans and have no training to deal with retirement, and feel their value to society has been diminished. It is particularly sad when they have accumulated wisdom and experience which could contribute to the benefit of society in many areas, and give them self-fulfilment.

There are many good active retirement groups around the country which provide and involve people in alternative activities. It would be useful to look at practices in other countries. Some years ago I visited China and early one morning we visited a location that looked like a playground but in fact was for elderly people doing their morning exercises, the Chinese equivalent of yoga, I suppose. We spoke to a few of them afterwards and discovered that some were well into their 80s and had served as editors of local newspapers and in other senior positions.

This was a way of socialising in the morning and above all keeping active and alert. Within the facility was a place to watch certain programmes, debates were going on and there were back-up health services available, to take blood pressure and run other basic checks. While we may value the benefits old age can bring to society, the Chinese have a long tradition of doing so and we could learn from their example.

I have always been interested in seeing people who remain active in their old age. When I was president of the Irish Road Hauliers Association, our secretary was a man who had retired from the B and I. He was rather conscious of his age although he was active. Shortly after I took over, a septuagenarian was elected President of the United States. Ronald Reagan was in his early 70s and our secretary who was in his late 70s delighted in the fact that someone could assume such a responsible position at that age. Anybody who was inclined to criticise his age after that was quickly put in his or her place.

The local gardaí have a nice tradition of inviting some of their retired colleagues to the station at Christmas for a few drinks. One of them, a man aged 91 years, said at the party that his greatest concern was that he was having difficulty with the gear stick in his car and he felt he would have to change to an automatic. That said something about his mentality.

Yes, there was nothing wrong with him, it was the gear stick that was wrong.

That is a good role model for older people. When they have their health they should avail of it. I recently met a couple from Santa Barbara who had just turned 70 years of age and had sailed down the Pacific in their 36 ft. boat, and were travelling through Fiji and Tonga, to New Zealand and Australia, covering the South Pacific. They were updating their website as they went along and taking plenty of photographs. It was an extraordinary adventure for them to undertake and a great example of what people who remain active can do.

This is a worthwhile initiative. I agree with Senator Henry that the introduction of the free travel pass was a good initiative——

Mr. Haughey did that.

Yes, Mr. Haughey introduced it as Minister for Finance. It is highly valued by elderly people who avail of it to visit relatives and travel around the country. We can take those kinds of initiatives but, as Senator Henry said, that requires planning. There are many things people wish to do with their lives and the Government could consider holding regional training seminars to prepare people for activities in their old age, liaising with active retirement groups and so on. I have seen too many people who find it difficult to move from full employment to retirement.

I wish Senator White, the Minister of State and all who participate in promoting this initiative, well. We all hope to live to old age. It is a great blessing if one does and the more State support there is for it the better we will enjoy it and the better society will be.

Sitting suspended at 4.40 p.m. and resumed at 5 p.m.
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