Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Jun 2006

Vol. 183 No. 24

Order of Business.

Ms O’Rourke

The Order of Business is No. 1, the Road Traffic Bill 2006 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 3 p.m., spokespersons have 15 minutes each and other Senators have ten minutes, and the Minister will be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.

I beg the indulgence of the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the House to make a short statement. I heard yesterday's Order of Business but I had arranged for Senator Dardis to fill in for me. The Senator admirably fulfils the role of Acting Leader when I am not present.

I wish to clarify a point and come to the defence of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, who may have been wrongly accused during yesterday's Order of Business. Deputy McDowell gives great support to this House. It is never necessary to drag him in here, he comes willingly and often, giving of himself fully. Other people had the chance to give their opinions yesterday so I am giving mine now. The Minister engages fully with Senators and has great regard for this Chamber. I wish every Minister was as free with his or her time, debating skills, spirit and effervescence. That is my opinion and the opinion of my party.

No one referred to the fact that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform gave us two hours the night before because Senator Brian Hayes had asked for him to come to the House. He came for a two-hour, pre-legislation debate. That did not happen in the Dáil, which was the subject of comment. The debate in the Dáil was four hours long and there were four hours in this House, not three as some have claimed, plus the two hours the previous night. We had six hours of debate.

The point was rightly made yesterday and on Friday that the Dáil had adjourned and, therefore, if an amendment had been deemed suitable in this House it could not have been accepted because the other House had adjourned. I would be dismayed about that, although we managed the legislation so it did not matter. The debate was extended three times. It was due to finish at 6.30 p.m. but it continued to 6.45 p.m., then 7.15 p.m. and then 7.30 p.m. The point remains, however, that even if an amendment had been debated for four further hours, it would not have been made because the other House had adjourned.

The urgency of the Bill remains. We all knew, as we do now, that the Bill can be deemed to have its own lacunae. I call it the "Joe Duffy Bill" as it came about because of huge public pressure to which we all succumbed. Senators will today receive a detailed memorandum on the issues of child protection as outlined by the Taoiseach in the other House yesterday. It is in every Senator's pigeon-hole so there is no need for me to read it out.

I do not want to see such a situation occurring again. It would not have been my wish that the other House rose before we gave detailed scrutiny to any particular amendment, which could then have gone to the other House. That could not happen, however, as the Dáil sitting had been adjourned. There was a demand for urgency in dealing with the legislation, which we fulfilled as legislators. To those who feel they did not get time to put forward fully their amendments I would say — not as an excuse but as an answer to the point — it did not matter if we debated the Bill until midnight. It could not go anywhere because there was also a motion for earlier signature by the President.

I accept that we are here to scrutinise legislation. Of all the Ministers, Deputy McDowell has often taken amendments in this House. If he has not been able to accept an exact amendment, he has interpreted its spirit in Government amendments he has tabled later.

I thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, for allowing me to say all that. I am not apologising for what happened but I am explaining the situation. We must ensure that the situation which arose does not recur. I wish to warn Senators in advance that the House will be debating the criminal justice legislation, which has been greatly altered from the Bill as originally initiated. I am seeking to have two weeks to debate it but it has not yet come through Report and Final Stages in the other House. It is a major Bill which will be like a bound volume. Justice spokespersons will find their plates full in dealing with it in the last week of June and the first week of July. They should be prepared for it and may wish to consult the record of the relevant debates on Committee and other Stages in the other House.

Mr. B. Hayes

Like the Leader, I was not here for yesterday's Order of Business. Last Friday, I spent four and a half hours here with my colleague Senator Cummins and others for the debate on the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill. The Leader raised an important point concerning the right of this House to make amendments to legislation. It is not right that amendments are put on either side of this House yet cannot be accepted by the Government because the sitting of the other House has been adjourned. That point needs to be highlighted to the Chief Whip in the other House.

Concern arose in connection with section 5, which now has a constitutional question mark over it. We did not have a chance to debate that section in any substantive way because we only dealt with it for two or three minutes. A further 40 or 60 minutes would have resolved the entire matter last Friday on Committee Stage. The concerns about section 5, that were genuinely held on both sides of the House, could at least have been expressed then.

The fundamental task of this House is to tease out legislation and table amendments. It is crucially important that we should be allowed to fulfil our primary task as outlined in the Constitution. Frequently when questions are raised by the High Court or the Supreme Court about the thinking of legislators on Acts, one of the useful tools at their disposal is the Official Report of debates in these Houses. By having recourse to the transcripts of Oireachtas debates, judges can tease out in their own minds exactly what is required. That was one of the reasons why we wanted to debate the amendments last Friday. It is why it was so important to reach all the amendments and, more particularly, to reach all the relevant sections of the Bill. I regret that we did not have a chance to do so.

I ask the Leader to arrange for a debate next week, if possible, to debate the siting of the new national children's hospital at the Mater Hospital. The Government would be well advised to hold off on making a decision at this stage on the issue for at least a month or two. There is considerable doubt about the suitability of the Mater Hospital site as the best one for a new national children's hospital.

Mr. Daly

What does the Senator think?

Mr. B. Hayes

I think it is the wrong site and I want to say why. I will say it to the Senator's face. It is the wrong site because for people coming from all over the country, it takes one hour to travel from Newland's Cross to the Mater Hospital. The new national children's hospital will not just be a facility for Dublin city. The location of the new hospital must be suitable for children from all parts of the country.

An international expert group should be allowed to examine this issue for a month or so. It could re-examine all the arguments and ensure that we will make the right decision. This will be the most important decision on paediatric care in this country for a generation, so we must get it right. Holding the decision off for a month will not unduly stop the project. It is the right thing to do at this stage. I am seeking a debate next week with the Tánaiste present to tease through those arguments. Important contributions to the debate have been made by St. James's Hospital, Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children in Crumlin, and Tallaght Hospital, which incorporates the old Harcourt Street National Children's Hospital. This will be a national facility and we must get it right. Delaying the decision by a month or so will not be detrimental to the ultimate project.

Mr. Norris

I welcome what the Leader said about the adjournment of the Dáil last Friday which rendered our debate on an important matter less significant than it would otherwise have been. I pointed out at the time that by allowing the Dáil to adjourn, the constitutional position of this House was fundamentally undercut and eroded because we were established principally as a revising Chamber to oversee Government legislation and table amendments to it. Having made that clear, I welcome what the Leader has said. I agree with the Leader that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has made himself available to the House. It is a pity, however, that when the legislation was debated here there was no broadcasting of "Oireachtas Report" on RTE.

Ms O’Rourke

There is none this week either.

Mr. Norris

It happened yesterday and today also. We are constantly being chided by the media for the fact that these benches are not always full, even though they know we are in our offices, yet where are they when we want them? This is a very important matter and it did not receive the wide public dissemination it should have.

I agree with Senator Brian Hayes about the Mater Hospital site for the new national children's hospital. We should examine this matter, which I raised yesterday. Today there have been calls by the consultants involved in various hospitals for the establishment of an international peer review. Such a review would only take three to four weeks, so it would not hold up the process. It may well be that the Mater Hospital site will still be chosen. It is a very good hospital but while it is a fine site, it may not be capable of the kind of expansion necessary in future.

The need for a debate on rendition flights was ventilated yesterday.

Ms White

Hear, hear.

Mr. Norris

The news has been announced today of the death of al-Zarqawi in Iraq. Due to the fact that I criticise rendition flights, I am sometimes seen as being an enemy of the United States and of democracy but I do not gloat over the death of anyone. However, al-Zarqawi was a person who lived by the sword and now he has died by the sword. His intervention in Iraq was not welcomed by the Iraqi people and I cannot mourn for him but I do mourn for our values. I also mourn the fact that once again, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, has been totally and deliberately disingenuous.

Mr. Daly

That is not right.

Mr. Norris

He does not accept what the report says. It says quite clearly that our involvement in the process of extraordinary rendition has been confirmed.

Mr. Daly

It does not.

Mr. Norris

Nobody says there is proof that people were taken through Shannon Airport on their way to torture.

Mr. Daly

They were not taken through Shannon Airport.

Mr. Norris

We know they were taken to be tortured.

Mr. Daly

Not through Ireland.

Mr. Norris

It is now absolutely confirmed that those aeroplanes were refuelled at Shannon Airport.

Senator Marty also stated that the attitudes and behaviour of the United States in seeking to redefine torture is utterly alien to the European tradition and sensibility, and clearly contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. He stated that 14 states, including Ireland, have been colluding either intentionally or negligently by turning a blind eye to what was going on.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Mr. Norris

Yes, I am, because a group in this House yesterday tried to dismiss the report and discredit Mr. Marty.

Mr. Glynn

They were right.

Mr. Norris

The editorial in The Irish Times states it “is a valuable addition to our knowledge of this whole affair and his advice on future policy is sound”. That has been echoed by the Human Rights Commission.

Mr. Daly

It does not involve Ireland.

Mr. Norris

When will we wake up and realise a fundamental breach of human rights is taking place? I ask the Leader to secure copies of the Marty report, make them available to all Members of the House and have a full debate on the matter.

Mr. Daly

That would be welcome. It would show Ireland is not involved.

Mr. McDowell

I endorse what others have said with regard to yesterday's proceedings reflecting on last week's proceedings. The defence the Leader made of the Minister was well made and justified. The fault lies with the Whips in the other House. This is not the first time they have behaved in the fashion they did last Friday and it will not be the last.

It is worth making the point that we had a good debate when the Minister came to the House and spoke without interruption last Wednesday.

Ms O’Rourke

That was the earlier debate.

Mr. McDowell

It was in complete contrast to the barracking, heckling and interchanges which characterised what passed for a debate in the Dáil. There is merit in discussing what are obviously emotive issues in a somewhat less emotional way. This House is a good place to do that.

The decision of the European Central Bank to increase interest rates is worthy of a decent debate in the House. I must be one of the few people in the world who think that this decision is, to say the least, premature. It is premature because the bank reduced rates in the first instance to encourage recovery in the eurozone economy. Anybody objectively considering that would conclude that this recovery is in its early stages, and that a decision now will inflict much pain not only on mortgage holders but on business, which we may quickly regret.

To be fair to the European Central Bank, it is very open in its decision making and very clear in its rationale. It is disappointing that, having set up the bank as an independent body with clear responsibility, the political establishment not just here but elsewhere in Europe has basically given up on the debate. I am one of those who believe the issue of interest rates and monetary policy is far too important to be left just to economists and bankers because we will all pay the price if we get it wrong.

I ask the Leader, perhaps not before the recess but certainly in the coming months, to find an opportunity to have a debate, perhaps framed in a wider context.

Mr. Dardis

I agree with Senator McDowell on the necessity for a debate on the matter of European interest rates and the management of the European economy. It is well signalled that the rate will increase by 0.25% to 0.5% when the bank meets today. The bank is doing this due to fears about inflationary pressures within Europe. A common system is now in place but there are wider issues concerning interest rates and the effect on mortgage holders that the House could usefully discuss.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach will be aware of the continuing interest of the House in the situation in East Timor. There have been many debates over the years with regard to issues such as the massacre in Dili, where Indonesian troops opened fire on defenceless people and many were killed. We were also consistently supportive of Tom Hyland and the East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign. I had the privilege of representing this House and meeting the then Secretary General of the United Nations, Mr. Boutros Boutros-Ghali, with regard to the matter.

We must voice our dismay at what has taken place in the most recently emerged democracy in the world, where there has been great violence, looting, burning and loss of life. In that context, I ask the Leader to convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs our desire to see the UN police force receive a mandate to travel to East Timor to restore order. I hope there will be Irish participation in that force because we have a deep knowledge of the situation there and have a history which indicates that we can make a serious contribution to that island.

Mr. Finucane

Many parts of the country do not appear to have acute difficulties with regard to waiting lists for orthodontic treatment. However, the old Mid-Western Health Board region has major difficulties with regard to the orthodontic service supplied by the Health Service Executive and the long waiting lists involved when young patients are classified as suitable for treatment. This drags on into their teenage years, when they are more self-conscious with regard to their appearance. In that context, parents are often pressurised due to frustration with the waiting lists and will opt for private practice. I question why orthodontics was not classified as a category for which patients could avail of the National Treatment Purchase Fund if there was an acute delay, such as the delays which occur in certain parts of the country, particularly my area.

The Leader should contact the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children with regard to the National Treatment Purchase Fund and the possibility of including orthodontic treatment as a category which qualifies for this resource when patients suffer long delays. I have received complaints from parents in my area who have become frustrated with the system and paid a lot of money to access treatment in private practice.

Mr. Glynn

Despite the best efforts of local authorities, environmental groups, tidy towns committees and others, we still have a serious problem with fly-dumping. It is very annoying to drive along national roads and see black bags full of litter or even old armchairs or mattresses dumped on the side of the road. We have had several debates on the matter in the House but it merits another given the time of year and the fact that many of our beauty spots are being defaced by mindless vandals dumping litter.

I strongly endorse the Leader's comments with regard to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. He is a very gutsy Minister and has great courage. Perhaps some people do not like to hear the truth but the Minister, whether one agrees with him or not, tells it as it is and does not dress it up.

Mr. Quinn

I ask the Leader to bring to the attention of the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children the question of the independence of the nursing home inspectorate. In May last year the Taoiseach stated, "The inspectorate will be independent of the HSE. Otherwise, the HSE would be referring patients and also examining [facilities]". In other words, it cannot do both. I refer to this matter because the Bill to create the authority has not yet been finalised. The draft proposals have been put to the interested parties and they do not propose an independent authority for inspecting nursing homes. Perhaps the Leader could find out what is happening in this regard and whether it is the case that the proposals are not for an independent inspectorate.

To follow on from the point made by Senator Dardis, I ask that we maintain pressure on the Government of Sudan to deliver on what it promised in last year's peace agreement. The agreement of last year took the pressure off that Government but, from what I understand of the situation, pressure needs to be reapplied because it is not delivering on its promises under the agreement.

Mr. Morrissey

I welcome the coverage in today's newspapers of the report by the Competition Authority on certain IMO practices in regard to price-fixing for doctor services. I recently learned of a more disturbing aspect which I would like to put on record. Doctors receive a flat fee of, I understand, €700 or €800 per annum for visiting their patients in nursing homes.

However, there is a practice, and I do not know how widespread it is, whereby doctors do not attend these patients and some nursing homes are obliged to provide doctors at their own expense. The doctor examines the patient, telephones the patient's doctor, advises the doctor of their diagnosis and a prescription is then faxed to the nursing home. The medication is administered to the patient without the patient's doctor having seen him or her, yet the patient's doctor claims his or her fee. Such practices must be highlighted and rooted out. I hope this will happen. I intend to write to the IMO about this practice.

I welcome the attempts by the Minister for Transport to address the problems with driving tests. He is hoping the private sector can be involved in this process from 1 July. I strongly condemn the fact that today, 1,300 young drivers cannot sit their tests because the driver testers are having a meeting to discuss whether they will accept the LRC proposals to deal with the backlog in driving tests. Will there be reform in the system? Young people are asked to pay high insurance prices. Are the driver testers helping in this situation? They are not.

Ms Terry

Like Senator Morrissey, I wish to raise the action taken by the driver testers today whereby they cancelled the driving tests of 1,300 young people. It is a disgrace and shows utter disregard for the effort and, indeed, anguish many people go through to sit the test. They only learned in the past couple of days that their tests have been cancelled. This action shows utter disregard for those people and for the system.

A total of 140,000 people in this country are waiting to do their driving tests. It was said in the news programmes this morning that the people whose tests were cancelled today will be slotted in over the next couple of days. How can that be done when there are so many people waiting up to 12 months to do the test? It just means the waiting list will get longer with further delays. This action must be condemned. I hope the Minister will be successful in what he is trying to do. The driver testers are not endearing themselves to the people of this country and particularly the people whose driving tests were cancelled. I hope the situation will be resolved as quickly as possible and I support the Minister in what he is trying to do.

Mr. Brady

I would welcome a debate on the suitability of the Mater site for the new national children's hospital. Regardless of where it is located, this project has now been held up for more than 18 months. We have seen the expert study, which took account of not only European but also worldwide best practice. The report has been presented to and accepted by the HSE and we should now move on. We should have a debate on the issue. With regard to possible expansion in the future, the plan takes account of future population trends and so forth and expansion possibilities are built into the plan. It is time we moved on.

Mr. Browne

An maidin seo, níl ach dhá mhíle dhéag daltaí ag déanamh ardleibhéal sa Ghaeilge san ardteistiméireacht. Ag an am céanna, táceadúnas speisialta ón Roinn ag timpeall fiche míle daltaí gan Gaeilge a dhéanamh san ard leibhéal. Is léir ó na figúirí go bhfuil níos mó daltaí ag déanamh ardleibhéal sa Fhrancais ná sa Ghaeilge. Is rud scannalach é i mo thuairimse. Tá siad ag foghlaim na Gaeilge ocht mbliana níos faide ná an Fhrancais. Mar thoradh, impím ar an gCeannaire díospóireacht a eagrú ar an ábhar seo agus go háirithe maidir le múineadh na Gaeilge agus caighdeán na Gaeilge sa tír seo faoi láthair agus sa todhchaí.

Dr. Mansergh

The conduct of foreign policy and our relations with other countries often involves striking difficult balances, taking into account both our values and our interests. Striking that balance wrongly can have serious long-term consequences. With all due respect to the distinguished rapporteur of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, not to mention certain editorial writers, those decisions are to be made by the Government responsible to the Oireachtas. The Minister for Foreign Affairs in what he said this morning has my complete confidence.

Mr. Norris

What a pity he did not tell the truth.

Mr. J. Walsh

With regard to the likely increase in interest rates of 0.25% or 0.50% this afternoon, given the robustness of our economy we probably should have had interest rate increases a number of years ago to curb inflation and cost increases. However, this issue is governed by the ECB, over which we do not have influence.

There are areas, such as those mentioned by Senator Morrissey, where we should but do not have influence. The report of the Competition Authority on the difficulties it is having with the IMO to some extent signals a failure on the part of the authority, given that it is quite late coming to this issue. Anybody who deals with the medical or legal profession will be aware of the excessive charges, indeed substantial overcharging, involved. As a consequence, these professionals are earning between €0.5 million and €1 million per year just for providing their personal time. It is the risk-takers in our economy who should be gaining that type of remuneration.

There are regulators in various sectors of the economy, such as telecommunications and electricity generation, who deal with these matters in the best interests of consumers by regulating the industries and particularly by influencing the prices they charge for their services. It is time we established regulators for the medical and legal professions. Successive Governments have been reluctant to do this. These professionals are in a privileged position and should not be free to charge what they like. Will the Leader arrange an early debate on the establishment of regulators to bring some semblance of reality, in the interests of the consumer, to both of these professions?

Mr. Kett

Senator Glynn mentioned environmental dumping. Most people will agree that one of the best initiatives taken in this area was the imposition of the plastic bag levy. It is now four years in existence. When the levy was introduced in 2002, approximately 90 million plastic bags were sold. That number has been increasing and apparently in 2005 a total of 115 million bags were sold. Is there a need for the Minister to re-examine this matter to ascertain if people see the 15 cent as an innocuous payment and, perhaps, consider increasing the levy if it would improve the situation?

I support the call for a debate on locating the new children's hospital on the Mater Hospital site. I agree with Senator Brady's comments in that regard. It is ironic that the two hospitals which are denigrating the decision happen to be the hospitals that were in contention for the decision. Perhaps there is an element of sour grapes. It is an insult to the expert body which examined this and, indeed, to Professor Drumm, an eminent paediatrician who worked in Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children, Crumlin. When will we stop second-guessing each other on this issue? An expert group has gone through the whole mechanism of making the decision and we are asking that another group overlook its comments. Where will it end? We should move on. As Senator Brady said, the matter has been in gestation for a year and half at this stage.

Mr. Moylan

On the issue of the environment and dumping I support the views of Senators Glynn and Kett that the position is serious and getting worse. I compliment the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Offaly County Council on a pilot scheme for the disposal, free of charge, of bale wraps and silage covers, at four locations in the county. This is an opportunity for farmers to dispose of such waste free of charge. It is a pilot scheme that I hope can spread to the rest of the country. We must give credit to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the local authority for taking this important initiative.

Ms O’Rourke

Senator Brian Hayes raised the matter of the location of the new children's hospital and asked that a decision be deferred for a month or two. It would be very wrong to defer a decision as it would send a wrong signal. We are all rightly aware of the needs of children and this hospital is to serve the whole country. Groups have been set up and have discussed it and agreed the location. There have been endless discussions on it. To set up another group to decide what to do would be time consuming, would give rise to criticism and I am not sure if it would arrive at a different conclusion.

Of course, it is a very important development for years to come. That is not to take away from the great work done in Harcourt Street, Tallaght, Crumlin and St. James's Hospital. I cannot see what could be achieved by a further delay. There will always be disappointments. The consultants from hospitals that did not get the approval are those who are making the noises.

Senator Norris asked where is RTE when we need it. It was not here last Friday either but I am informed it was here last night. The Senator raised the matter of the Mater Hospital. He also asked for a debate on rendition and asked that everybody in the House get a copy of Senator Marty's report.

Senator McDowell referred to the decision of the European Central Bank to raise interest rates. He realises it is independent in its thinking and its decision making. I will ask if the Minister for Finance would be interested in coming in here for a debate on monetary policy.

Senator Dardis referred to the position in East Timor. He asked that the Minister for Foreign Affairs would ask the UN to send a police force there, on which we would have members, because of our interest in this area and the experience we have gained. I will certainly be glad to raise that issue.

Senator Finucane referred to the acute difficulties involving waiting lists for orthodontic treatment. Following delays of three or four years for treatment, children will have left the primary school and moved on to secondary school. There are two separate problems with it. The child cannot have the treatment because his or her condition is not serious enough and yet the child is miserable and suffers from a lack of self-confidence in regard to what he or she thinks is a huge drawback to his or her appearance. If the National Treatment Purchase Fund was encouraged the delay in inspection could be obviated. That would be a good use of the fund. I shall bring that matter to the attention of the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children.

Senator Glynn raised the matter of fly-dumping. The problem is increasing given that people tend to go out at night in the summertime with black bags. They think they can dump them and get away with it. On "Today with Pat Kenny" there was a feature where Valerie Cox used to inspect black bags. If she found letters she would trace them to whoever had dumped them, although it may not always be the proper person. However, the Senator's point is well made.

Senator Quinn asked about the independence of the nursing homes inspectorate. We have not yet had the Bill. Perhaps that matter could be raised on Committee Stage of the Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill. I will also inquire about it. The Senator also raised the matter of the Government of Sudan and asked that it live up to its promises.

Senator Morrissey referred to the Competition Authority's criticism of certain IMO practices in regard to doctors receiving a flat fee for visiting patients in nursing homes which, according to the Senator, they do not always do. The nursing home gets a doctor to come in and that doctor communicates with the doctor who should be present, with the prescription coming in by fax. What a tortuous way to deal with anyone. That is a fair point. Without meaning to be smart I suggest the Senator raise the matter with the Tánaiste at one of their meetings.

Mr. Morrissey

That is a useful comment.

Ms O’Rourke

It is important to raise it here. The Senator welcomed the aim of the Minister for Transport to reduce the waiting list for driving tests. Senator Terry referred to the 1,300 driving tests cancelled today due to a meeting to discuss whether to accept the offer to get in outside testers.

Senator Brady would welcome a debate on the new children's hospital. The idea of the hospital is already overdue. Senator Brian Hayes made the point that people would have to come from the south but it also covers the whole north side of Dublin and all the areas that feed into it. Senator Brady considers that the decision has been made and that we should stick with it.

Senator Browne requested a debate on the teaching of Irish. He said that only 12,000 students do honours Irish for the leaving certificate yet a huge number can take French after only a few years. During all those years in primary school we labour away with not much output.

Senator Mansergh said that in foreign matters we have to steer an even keel. It was a generalised comment on how we conduct our foreign affairs.

Senator Walsh referred to the report of the Competition Authority and called for a debate on monetary policy. He said risk-takers are needed. His central point was that there are regulatory authorities for this, that and the other but there are no regulators for medical and legal people. I think such regulators are necessary.

Senator Kett asked that the levy on plastic bags be increased. He also supported the call for a debate on locating the new children's hospital at the Mater Hospital. Everyone has said that absolutely no influence of any kind was used in arriving at the final decision on the Mater Hospital. I heard Professor Drumm being interviewed on the radio. He was emphatic and clear.

Senator Moylan raised the issue of the pilot project in Offaly where the county council is disposing of silage wraps for farmers, free of charge. It is a pilot project involving the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Offaly County Council and the farmers. It appears to be a good idea and I hope it will find an echo.

Order of Business agreed to.