The Order of Business is No. 1, the Local Government (Business Improvement Districts) Bill 2006 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., spokespersons will have 15 minutes and other Senators ten minutes, and the Minister will be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before conclusion of Second Stage.
Order of Business.
Fine Gael agrees to today's Order of Business as proposed by the Leader.
I refer to an issue raised in today's newspapers and elsewhere in the media concerning what would appear to be a difference of opinion——
A mugging.
——in the Government's view on stem cell research. This is a serious matter and the Senator should treat it seriously.
This is very serious.
I welcome the fact that there is a difference of opinion within the Government in this regard and I want to issue a warning to all political parties. An attempt to rerun the divisive and opportunistic debates which occurred during the 1980s will bring about a major blow to the body politic. I welcome the fact that differences exist in political parties, including my own, on this issue. In a recent European Parliament vote, four of my colleagues took one view, while another colleague took a different view. I welcome that.
Senators
Hear, hear.
If ever there was a need for a free vote on an issue of personal conscience, it is on this one.
To murder or not to murder.
This House has always had an ability to be reflective on such matters. Members should take the lead and encourage their political parties to-——
Senator Lydon should withdraw that comment. It is a bit rich, coming from him of all people.
Senator Brian Hayes, without interruption.
I appeal to political parties to allow a free vote on this issue to stop the rerun of the 1980s debate and for them to stop corralling people. Let us be open and honest with one another as individuals. No manifesto commitments were given on this issue at the last election. The idea that political parties can take collective views on an issue of personal conscience is simply ridiculous and they would be taking a far more fair and mature view if they chose not to so do. I hope this House will take a lead in this regard by debating the issue as individuals, rather than as members of political parties.
I take grave exception to the comment made by Senator Lydon.
Hear, hear.
The last time he made a similar comment to my colleague, Senator Norris, he was invited to his leader's office where he was shown the door or the window to find his way out. He may be due another trip for the same purpose. His comment was quite appalling.
A reasonable argument has been put forward on an issue. I did not hear the "Morning Ireland" radio programme this morning, on which I understand the issue was discussed.
I did.
However, I read the piece in the Irish Independent this morning. It was the only newspaper to carry the story, and it has no by-line. This is a matter of extraordinarily serious consequence and I accept that people hold different views. I suspect that views differ on both sides of the House. This morning I had made special note to raise this issue in the House, because people should discuss it seriously and should consider all the views.
Members have seen the suffering that has come to families which cope with Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease and a range of other issues. While I neither know nor purport to put forward the answers in this regard, apparently such conditions may be alleviated to some extent by stem cell research. I also understand that people have different views in this regard. Last week, they were articulated in this House by Senators Ó Murchú, Quinn and other Members in respect of the difference between embryonic stem cells and adult cells. I am not familiar with the various arguments for and against such research.
However, this is absolutely crucial. For me, it recalls a debate in this House in 1989, when my colleague, Senator Norris, asked for a debate on AIDS. Debate on that subject was absolutely resisted for a long number of months. Eventually, this was the first House in which it was discussed. That was in 1987 or 1989, I cannot remember the exact date. This is a major issue and while it sits in the ether, ordinary people will be led down the garden path. Perhaps they will go to quacks who do not know anything about it and purport to provide treatment which will not be effective at all. This issue must be regulated and co-ordinated.
I am concerned the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, apparently stated something different to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin. They are entitled to hold different views. My purpose is not to open up or create splits in the Government. It is to highlight the fact that we need to discuss this matter. One of the Ministers should come to the House for a debate. It will not be a party political debate as the Leader's side of the House will have as much interest, information and concern as this side.
We must approach the matter by listening to one another's points of view. We may differ on the issues but we will come to conclusions or at least become more informed. We will be able to tell our constituents what are our views. We may not all agree but we will be able to progress the matter in a way that reflects the views of the country, and everybody will have their views on the record. This debate is essential and urgent. Will the Leader find time to have it?
This time last year the Leader gave me a commitment to debate early child care on the first week back after the summer recess and she delivered on it. I do not want a rushed debate on this issue.
No.
I want a full debate. If the Leader states the only time it is possible is during the first week back that makes sense.
The House should welcome an initiative described in The Irish Times today. The newspaper will make its archive which goes back to 1859 available to every school and researcher worldwide. This is an extraordinary and mind-boggling initiative. It opens up information and provides access to people at all levels. It should be recommended to all newspapers.
Yesterday morning I was accused of being ambivalent about killing. I read what I stated, which was "though I may find it morally wrong". I previously stood up in this House and condemned the murder of Rachel Corry. I also condemned the murders of 43,000 civilians in Iraq. I frequently stated that the deliberate or reckless targeting of civilians is a profound wrong. Whether it is deliberate as in a suicide bombing or reckless as in rocketing cars containing 15 year old girls, it is profoundly and morally wrong.
I will not allow anybody to suggest to me that he or she will dictate the language I will use when oppressed people are treated in the way Israel treats the people of Gaza. Israel bombed a power station, and without a doubt, children will die throughout Gaza because electricity is not available to them and because the roads have been destroyed.
I have a hierarchy of values and the victims of oppression come at the top of my hierarchy. My great hero of Irish politics is Daniel O'Connell.
Hear, hear.
I subscribe fully to his views on the uselessness and futility of violence. I also remember his extraordinary courage in refusing to visit the United States because it was a slave owning country. He refused to shake the hands of citizens of states of the union which practised slavery. He condemned the oppression of the Aboriginal people in Australia in 1840, before anyone else had noticed. I am a pygmy by comparison with Daniel O'Connell. However, I take my inspiration from him and I will not be lectured into a moral hierarchy in which the killings by oppressed people are worthy of much more unqualified condemnation than the murder of 43,000 civilians in Iraq by so-called civilised democratic governments. I will not be bounced into that position.
Regarding the matter raised by my two colleagues, I was on the other side of many of the arguments during the controversies of the 1980s. However, my memory is apparently better than theirs. I remember the name of the Lord Jesus Christ being insulted in this House by somebody who chose to use appalling language here today. I remember what he said then and I remember what I said then too, and I will repeat now. It is a gross abuse of proper political debate.
That said, this raises a profound ethical issue. It is extraordinarily wrong that the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment should decide the views of this country and the Government on an issue with such profound ethical implications.
Hear, hear.
That is a matter in which the Oireachtas should have a supreme role and it should be based on the individual consciences of Members of the Oireachtas. That has been my view on all of these matters. There is no simple answer to these questions.
Hear, hear.
It is neither satisfactory to state it is murder, nor is it satisfactory to state the opposite. It is a difficult complex area because law and morality in issues such as this cannot be coterminous. It is avoiding the issue to pretend it is not difficult or that a simple solution exists. I would welcome a serious debate.
Hear, hear.
I deeply regret the absence from this House of that good and decent person, Des Hanafin, who throughout the heat of debate during all of the controversies of the 1980s never stated a single bad word about his opponents.
Hear, hear.
Hear, hear.
It is an example some people in this House could learn to live by.
Senator Ryan and I agree on one particular aspect of this matter, which is that it is not simple. The House has an good tradition of debating extremely difficult and sensitive moral issues without heat and in a balanced and fair way. I particularly recall when the all-party committee reported on the matter of the X case and abortion. We must be careful in our use of language and our reactions. It arouses strong emotions and feelings, which is understandable.
It is claimed, which I believe is correct, that a moral clause should exist whereby in matters of conscience people should be able to vote as they wish. It is a rule in my party and on occasions we voted in different ways and I accept what Senator Brian Hayes stated. If such a moral clause exists, it should apply to Government Ministers in the same way as to every other Member.
Yes, exactly.
Absolutely.
Therefore, I defend the right of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, to state what he did. In addition, the Minister was adamant that his view was not that represented by the headline in the newspaper. That assertion was subsequently endorsed by the journalist, who replied to the matter.
We must be extremely careful about these matters. Serious ethical and moral considerations are involved which evoke strong feelings. It is appropriate for this House to debate those issues fully. However, we must be conscious of our responsibilities. It would be most unfortunate if these matters were to be politicised because freedom of conscience is extremely important.
Senator Leyden yesterday raised the matter of the Middle East, which was also referred to indirectly today by Senator Ryan. It is most urgent that we debate it, particularly the situation involving Palestine, Israel and the West Bank. The trend of events suggests a capacity for major impact not only in the immediate area but throughout the Middle East.
The Finnish ambassador attended yesterday's meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee European Affairs to outline the list of priorities for Finland's European Presidency, which is about to begin. I made an appeal to him that the Finnish Presidency keep the matter of Palestine dominant within its considerations of foreign affairs. At least the EU would then be able to bring its voice to bear on the matter, particularly to ensure that humanitarian aid gets to the people most affected by these conflicts, who are without electricity and water. I refer particularly to the children as it is important that they be well looked after.
These are important issues and I ask the Leader to try to provide time for debate. I understand and fully appreciate that we have a very busy schedule next week, during which legislation will be a priority. However, it is important that even a small amount of time be allowed to consider these matters.
I have allowed some latitude to the leaders of the various groups regarding stem cell research and I will not allow a detailed discussion of it. A number of other Senators are offering and I call Senator Finucane.
I want to raise an issue I thought we had left behind, namely, the industrial relations problems of the past. Iarnród Éireann has been marketing itself positively and trying to streamline its operations to facilitate its customers, yet I was delayed for two hours on the early morning train yesterday due to the maverick action of a worker in Mallow Station. The knock-on effect was that the train was packed with people standing and schoolchildren on a school tour from Kilflynn in Tralee were delayed for two hours on their journey to Dublin.
I raise this issue because the unions have a responsibility. If there is industrial relations machinery——
On a point of order, the unions immediately engaged themselves.
Will the Senator let me finish?
The unions acquitted themselves——
With all due respect, the Senator should sit down.
Senator O'Toole, that is not a point of order.
The trade unions have a responsibility in regard to maverick workers taking action such as was taken yesterday. With the partnership talks and Sustaining Progress, we are building a mechanism to protect ourselves against these eventualities. I saw at first hand yesterday how people were affected by them.
I contacted Iarnród Éireann this morning and officials told me industrial relations machinery is in place regarding the issue in question but that the person concerned took unilateral action. Unilateral action should not be affecting the public as in this case. We cannot seriously market Iarnród Éireann if this kind of maverick carry-on continues, and it is about time we left it behind us.
The Senator should not blame the unions.
I said the unions have a responsibility. The person in question was in a union.
I call Senator Ó Murchú.
They discharged it immediately.
I, too, would like further debate on stem cell research. We had a debate on this previously in the presence of the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children and I found it exceptionally informative and very balanced.
We are not having a debate on it today.
I am asking for a debate.
A debate has been sought on the issue.
With all due respect, it is normal that when one asks for a debate, one explains why. I would find it very strange if several contributions were made in which my name was used and I were not allowed follow the norm in the House. I will accept the Chair's ruling but it is wrong. May I continue on that basis?
Briefly.
I thank the Chair and I believe I am entitled to continue. I asked for a debate to start with and explained why I believed it necessary. I spoke on this subject last week and I was very taken by Senator Quinn's suggestion on that occasion that the place for these debates is here in Ireland and not necessarily in Europe. I support that. I very much support Senator Brian Hayes in what he said this morning. I have always believed votes of conscience should be allowed in any Parliament. We have done a great disservice to this nation by railroading people into corrals, exactly as the Senator described, on the occasion of votes. This does not help debate.
I am a little worried that people's hopes are being raised although their expectations may not be substantiated in any way. It is not right to raise the hopes of people who are suffering from terrible ailments. I do not have all the answers and each speaker in the House is correct in saying this is a very complex issue on which we need advice and guidance. With all due respect, this House is the place to debate the matter. I have my views and the other Senators will have theirs. Some of these views will be articulated on ethical grounds and others on different grounds. I am particularly worried that an element of this debate is more commercial than ethical.
Hear, hear.
I would like this to be considered. I am sorry about the way I spoke to the Leas-Chathaoirleach.
I find myself generally on the side of Senator Ryan on many human rights issues. I was particularly worried to hear a power station had been bombed in Gaza because we know electricity is necessary in hospitals, etc. Children will certainly suffer, as will old people, but they will not make the headlines. If Hamas has any influence in regard to the young Israeli soldier in question, it should ensure his release immediately and have him sent back to his unit and family. The Israeli Government should note that the individuals it captured or kidnapped over the years, who are now in Israeli prisons, should also be released.
Hear, hear.
Reports emanating from the Middle East suggested that Hamas was actually on the verge of agreeing to recognise Israel's right to exist. Is it not very strange that the current events are occurring at such a time?
I apologise again for what I said to the Leas-Chathaoirleach.
I heard the debate on stem cell research on RTE this morning and it seemed that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, was giving a kind of post-dated cheque and saying that if stem cell research proved effective and to have results, a case might be considered. This is an interesting position. He also referred to the question of ethical subsidiarity, which involves a free vote of conscience for different European countries. This is welcome.
I note that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, was recently in Rome. I raised this issue yesterday. One of the subjects the Minister discussed concerned the political aspects of embryonic research. I hope the Vatican will not attempt to instruct people on how they should vote based on their religious affiliation. It is very important that we have a reasoned debate and that words such as "murder" are kept out of it.
I listened with interest and sadness to an Irish Member of the European Parliament referring to five-day old embryos as "daughters" and "sons". They plainly are not; they are a form of life but to describe them and someone's "daughters" or "sons" is totally unhelpful as they lack a central nervous system.
It is very important that we have a debate on the Middle East. The Americans and Israelis are talking about "asymmetrical warfare". The current events represent asymmetry at its highest. I agree with Senator Ó Murchú that it is very suspicious that this kind of situation should develop just when Hamas made a major diplomatic advance in terms of recognition, to which matter I referred yesterday. I believe the current events are an attempt to disturb this. They are very worrying and appalling and my belief is confirmed by a report by Michael Jansen in The Irish Times today. We appear to have no concern whatever in Europe for the human rights of the Palestinian people, even for their basic right to survival. If we did, we would have operated the human rights clauses of the external association agreement.
The bombing of the power station may well cause difficulties for hospitals but even more widespread will be the difficulty in acquiring the very basic element of water. The pumps and sewerage systems do not work and people are being deliberately driven back into the Stone Age. This is appalling and is being done by the army, an arm of the Israeli state. The home-made rockets sent in from the territories are the work of maverick groups.
I note with great sadness that the Israelis are once more talking about Mahmoud Abbas as not being a partner for peace. This is the way they discredited Mr. Arafat. It reminds me of the kind of language used all the time by Ian Paisley in Northern Ireland in that it was said that Captain O'Neill must go, Mr. Faulkner must go and nobody is a partner for peace. They should grow up.
It has been reported that the CIA has been monitoring banking transactions. Did Irish officials know about this? Was our Government aware that the bank accounts of individual Irish citizens were being monitored secretly by the CIA, apparently in flagrant violation of international data protection law? We are entitled to know that, particularly in light of the ongoing concern about the rendition flights.
A Fianna Fáil Member, the Vice Chairman of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, tabled a motion to that committee and the Joint Committee on European Affairs requesting an invitation to be sent to Senator Marty to address those committees. The motion was passed in both cases. Would the Leader consider it appropriate for Senator Marty to come to this House, if he comes before the other committees, because we have taken a particular interest in that matter? People who have been critical of the report would then have the opportunity of directly questioning him.
I support the other Senators who spoke about the situation in Gaza and in Israel, which is very serious. I realise the Leader has a very busy schedule coming up to the end of the session but we should ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to call for a meeting of the Security Council because the United Nations is standing idly by in this regard. The direction is coming from Washington. The President has stated Israel's right to defend itself. In this case a soldier was kidnapped. A settler has been murdered. Fourteen young Palestinians were murdered by the Israelis. It is tit for tat and excessive force is being used. Israel does not want to rescue the soldier. It wants to murder because it suits its cause to go back into Gaza.
That is a terrible thing to say.
If Israel wanted to get the soldier released it would not attack people, take out power stations and bridges and go door to door in Gaza. It would engage in a negotiated settlement to get the soldier released. It is trying to eliminate the Palestinian state. Members of the Hamas Government, who are democratically elected parliamentarians, have been arrested by the Israeli forces. As someone who supported America's involvement in Shannon — my nephew served with the forces during the war — I say to the American people that this action is being carried out in their name through a proxy, Israel, with the support of Condoleezza Rice and George Bush. I call on the United Nations to have a special meeting of the Security Council to curb the ambitions of the Israelis who are determined to wipe out the Palestinian state. That is the reality and if we do not make that call and stand idly by, we are not taking our position as Members of this House seriously.
I agree with previous speakers on the need for a measured debate on the issue of stem cell research. The Oireachtas health committee had a meeting yesterday on the related issue of assisted human reproduction. It is regrettable that it was leaked to The Irish Times even though it was agreed at the meeting it would not be reported. I compliment the work of Senator Henry on that important topic. The message I got from the meeting yesterday was that a commission has sat for some years on the issue, a report has been published and there is a major gap in the law in terms of protecting women, especially those undergoing IVF treatment. If we do not fill that gap as legislators, terrible scenarios will arise. Senator Ó Murchú made a valid point about commercialisation in the area of stem cell research but if we allow a scenario such as that the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, envisaged, namely, that we would not allow stem cell research here but are willing to benefit from research carried out abroad, we will have no control over——
That is right.
——or input into the source of that stem cell research. We should have a debate in the early autumn on this important issue. One person whose views on the matter we must hear is the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children. We now have a report from the commission. We are due a report from the Oireachtas health committee shortly. It is now time for action on this matter. There is no regulation in this very complicated area. Some parts of it can be done immediately. Others require legislation in both Houses, which can be debated at length, while some require constitutional amendment, which will warrant further debate. It is important we debate this issue in a measured and calm way.
I call for an urgent debate with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, to discuss the abhorrent issue of sex trafficking, a burgeoning business worth an estimated €28 billion per annum worldwide. That makes this heinous crime the second largest source of profit of organised crime after drug trafficking. The United Nations estimates that more than 1 million persons are trafficked every year, mainly women and children but some boys and men also.
We were all rightly horrified by the "Prime Time Investigates" programme of 8 May but the issue appears to have left the political radar and conscience. I take the opportunity to laud our Leader, Senator O'Rourke, who proposes to introduce a Bill on sex trafficking.
I thank the Senator.
There must be an end to the ignorance that women who have been trafficked for sex are not being exploited in Ireland. The "Prime Time Investigates" programme highlighted the way the women are being exploited in towns and cities throughout the country. There must be a concerted effort to highlight the fact that this is a modern day slave trade——
Hear, hear.
——of vulnerable people, mostly women and children, for the sexual gratification of morally depraved individuals. We, as legislators, must initiate a zero tolerance approach to those who are engaged in trafficking human beings for sex. The idea that they are acting with relative impunity makes me sick to my stomach. I want to see this issue accorded the priority it deserves and zero tolerance legislation introduced as quickly as possible.
Hear, hear.
I am sorry that Senator Ryan, a person I greatly respect, took offence at what I said yesterday. That was not my intention. My concern was that killing and kidnapping by any side in a conflict should always be condemned, regardless of the respective moral standing of the opposing sides. Senator Ryan's concern was that the Palestinians who carried out those actions should not be considered terrorists. Listening to him I got the impression, perhaps wrongly, that he was condoning those actions or seeking to excuse them whereas I personally take the view that such actions should always be condemned. That was the simple point I was trying to make and I am sorry that, in doing so, I may have expressed myself badly or given offence when none was intended. I wanted to make sure that was understood.
I thank the Senator.
I support the Senators who called for a debate on stem cell research. I will not repeat what Senator Ó Murchú said but I agree this is the House in which that debate should take place. I also support Senator Hayes's view — we do not have this problem on the Independent side — that it should be a free vote and not controlled by party leaders. That would be a worthy debate.
Figures show that the personal debt of our citizens is huge. That is a worrying and potentially destabilising situation. Credit card debt is in the region of €2 billion and that is being paid for at a rate of approximately 19% by those generous banks which I am sure are happy to do so. There are perhaps 1 million SSIA holders, many of whom may have credit cards. It is up to us as a State to remind those people, as they receive this huge sum of money from these savings accounts, to first pay off their credit card debts. They will have plenty of money to spare but there is a danger that people will spend it on other items and end up paying huge interest rates to banks on credit cards. I hope there is some way we could get across that message. Perhaps it is in the hands of the State through the Minister for Finance but whoever sends it, that message should go out strongly and clearly.
The indications are that we will have a busy schedule next week. Perhaps it might be a suitable opportunity for the Leader to outline next week's programme, in so far as she is aware of it, and the proposed sitting days. Will she tell the House when the Government intends to debate Committee Stage of the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Bill, Second Stage of which was debated here last week?
In view of yesterday's statement by the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy Noel Ahern, on the prohibition of stage payments, of which everyone spoke in favour for all the obvious reasons, his comments would be more appropriate for the contracts section of that Bill. We would need to hear from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the matter.
I support the call for a debate on stem cell research. What Senator Browne said was very important. We need to include in this debate what our attitudes will be towards any treatments that may be found useful. Will we, in fact, insist that they are not allowed in this country? Another topic that should be included in the debate is what our attitude will be towards the various pharmaceutical companies in this country who are carrying out stem cell research in other countries. How do we feel about that?
We must ensure that this debate is broad and realistic. Like many people, I have concerns about the ethics of working with embryonic stem cells. At the same time I recognise the possibilities with them. There has not been much concrete evidence yet of cures as regards various neurological diseases, in particular. However, given the responses of people with conditions such as motor neuron disease, multiple sclerosis and so forth, perhaps my attitude my be different if I was suffering from any of those diseases.
We must, however, address the situation of the pharmaceutical companies as well. It must be recalled that these are the people who are making the profits from such research, not the individual research workers. We must look at the pharmaceutical companies as well.
Apart from well-worn debates on the Order of Business about the proper name of a certain Kerry town——
It is An Daingean.
——we have relatively few opportunities to debate our cultural heritage. It is notable that there have been Europa Nostra Awards for two projects. The OPW was involved in one for the fine restoration of the curvilinear glasshouse project at the National Botanic Gardens, in which the Taoiseach was interested and promoted. The work of the Irish Georgian Society over 40 or 50 years was also recognised. That society's main contribution, perhaps, was at a time when there was very little money in the country and when for understandable historical reasons people had mixed feelings about that part of our heritage. However, its advocacy has been such that ultimately there is very little equivocation in this regard anymore, which is to the benefit of the country. Members on all sides of the House will probably welcome the opportunity for a wide-ranging debate on our cultural heritage in the autumn, perhaps, because very little legislation comes forward on this area.
I should like the Leader to invite the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the House for a debate on Ireland's drop in domestic competitiveness as a result of high business costs imposed by the Government. We must end the process by reducing the costs of business through the process of taxation by stealth. Rising costs are having a serious impact on businesses, particular small to medium-sized enterprises and it is important to review our industrial policy in the light of what is happening. We see, virtually on a daily basis, small companies folding up and moving elsewhere in Europe where they have better services and fewer stealth taxes, etc.
There is no evidence that the Government is doing anything as regards this whole issue. It stands idly by as jobs are being lost. We all received copies of the IDA Ireland report for 2005, which was published during the week. It was alarming to read that while something in the region of 12,000 jobs were created by IDA Ireland last year, some 9,000 were lost countrywide. That is a serious situation and needs to be addressed.
On the issue of Iarnród Éireann, as raised by my colleague, Senator Finucane, I had a similar experience last week where a number of people across the midlands were stranded on a train that had left Sligo. It had to change drivers at Maynooth, but no driver turned up there. As a result, a number of people travelling to the UK missed their flights. I wrote to Iarnród Éireann as regards compensation for those people, because they are entitled to it. The fault lies solely with Iarnród Éireann that they missed their flight and action must be taken. I want a debate in the House as soon as possible on the reliability of Iarnród Éireann.
I was just thinking about how Senator Finucane rightly expressed his anger over what happened to the train, yesterday. It is about time that many of us got angry and demanded better services. I am also thinking of An Post. Every summer the same thing happens with our postal service. Postmen have to take holidays, but no system is put in place to ensure that the post is delivered every day. How can companies in this country function, where the post may come only every second day? In some cases, I have been told, people are waiting for post for three or four days. That is not good enough and it happens every summer. It will happen at other periods, too, when one knows the postman is on holiday. These matters have to be planned and systems should be put in place to ensure that services continue as they should.
At the very least, An Post should tell us that during the summer we will only get post every second day, or twice a week. It should just let us know what is happening. The present system is unacceptable. We have come to accept that things do not work properly. We do not shout loud enough and demand we get a proper service. This is one area where the service provided is not good enough.
I very much welcomed the opportunity, last night, to speak on cancer services. It was an opportunity for the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, to put forward the Government's policy, as well. Good arguments were made. An obvious one was that where specialised cancer services are required there has to be a critical mass of expertise, knowledge and skills. That is acceptable and we must live in the real world, when that is the case. However, we cannot use peripherality as an excuse for not locating cancer services in particular areas. There is a very active group in my area, known as the Donegal Action for Cancer Care group. The people who underpin that group have suffered cancer in the past. They are the people who know, and who have suffered the arduous journey from Donegal to Dublin, sometimes taking seven hours. They argue that cancer services are needed in our area.
I know Senator Norris has difficulty with this because he has argued before that there cannot be cancer services, willy-nilly, all over the country. However, the people of the north west do not just include Donegal. They also live in counties Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal and Sligo. Senator Scanlon flew the flag for Sligo yesterday. There is a critical mass of population to justify a single satellite service facility in the north west. If there are radiotherapy services in Dublin and units proposed for Waterford, Limerick, Cork and Galway, we still have to look at the north west region.
People are talking about trains not being on time. The people in the north west do not have a train from Letterkenny to Dublin. We cannot even make the argument about poor punctuality when it comes to train services. Those who underpin a campaign group dealing with concerns over cancer services being downgraded in the north west are shouting out loud that they want facilities near them because they do not want to engage in arduous journey times of up to seven hours from Letterkenny to Dublin.
As legislators, we have a duty to listen to them and take on board their viewpoints.
Yesterday, the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, indicated that the Government will not be sporadically putting satellite cancer service units all over the country. What is the Government policy on locating a specialised radiotherapy unit in the north west? The people in the Donegal Action for Cancer Care group and cancer sufferers will want nothing less than services in their own region.
I join Senator Terry in a call for a debate on the postal service, which is appalling. As a member of a trade union, it grieves me to admit that despite repeated efforts on my part and on the part of many people in my community, there is a totally inefficient and even absent postal service. I was told by senior members of the trade union involved to fire the relevant postmen myself. I had to collect my post at the local exchange for three years. I was stopped by a trade union official and told I would have to pay. I paid and collected my own post and my neighbours' post because it was not being delivered to our homes.
The situation has gone so far out of control recently that weeks have passed without any post being delivered. It finally came to a head when neighbours had to collect other neighbours' post on the side of the road and deliver it through their letter boxes, including my own. It is about time we all faced reality. I fully support Senator Terry's comments and I call on the Leader to have a debate so that we can face down the trade unions. We must ask them to act responsibly in the interests of a postal service that soon will not exist if urgent action is not taken.
Senator Brian Hayes, Leader of the Opposition, brought up the very important topic of stem cell research. Equally important was the climate in which he wished such a debate to be couched. I fully agree with him. The lead-up to a general election is fertile ground for intolerance. I remember the mid to late 1980s when such an intolerance was expressed. There was a fear that one would have to toe the line and I hope that a postcard campaign will not develop which demands that one say A or B.
Hear, hear.
I respect what the Senator said. I also feel that everybody's point of view should be tolerated. People have strong feelings one way or another, but I do not condone the use of words like "murderer".
Hear, hear.
That is not to be respected or tolerated. There is no room in such a debate for that kind of name calling. I dread that in the next nine months, black and white stances will be taken on this debate. This is not a black and white issue. If it was, it would be very easy to nail one's colours to the mast.
Hear, hear.
It is not such an issue. It was very worthy of Senator Hayes to raise the matter in the way he did. He went on to say that he thought political parties would give a free vote to their members. I fear that will not be the case, but I hope the debate will not reach that point. I admire the fact that members of the same parties in Europe were able to divide on the issue without rancour. One of the good things about the system in Europe is that each speaker is limited to three minutes, which provides very little time for rancour to be displayed. I hope we are in for a period of civilised discussion and not an array of postcards with demands. It is not that kind of an issue.
Senator O'Toole asked for a serious debate on co-ordination and regulation in our first week back. We will not get around to debating it next week and I have a statement to give on that matter. We hope to have such a debate on our first week back. The last time the Tánaiste came here to debate such a matter she did so as Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. One might think that is an incongruous Department for such a debate, but she came in that guise because of the research possibilities of that work. Therefore, I do not know whether the Tánaiste or the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, will attend the debate. The Senator also spoke about The Irish Times opening up its archives for schools and the wonderful work which will be done. The schools are being very pro-active and that is excellent.
Senator Ryan stated that targeting civilians and an oppressed people is profoundly wrong. Targeting children, knocking out power stations and blowing up water reservoirs is equally wrong. I am also glad to see that the Senator received an apology.
Senator Dardis also raised the issue of stem cell research and stated that it was not a simple matter of right and wrong. He also stated that he asked the Finnish European Affairs Minister to ensure that the Finnish Presidency kept the Palestinian question high on the EU agenda.
Senator Finucane spoke about the maverick train drivers who hold up a day's travelling. It is easy to say that it is a trade union matter, but the trade unions have been very spirited about it and have stated openly that they do not condone these actions. It is very difficult for a trade unionist to impose his or her will on the spot. I take the Senator's point about people being left high and dry.
Senator Ó Murchú stated that a debate was necessary on stem cell research and that votes of conscience should be allowed. I wish that were the case. He spoke about the human rights situation in the Middle East. Senator Norris referred to the water supply in Palestine and asked whether Senator Marty should appear before the House. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges took a view that people we invite would be of a particular calibre. That is not to condemn Senator Marty, but I do not know how to put it in words. The committee stated that such people should be of international calibre. The proposal can be put to the CPP.
He is very international now.
He is by now. Senator Leyden spoke about Gaza and the Hamas Government. Israel stated that the people kidnapped are not bargaining chips. It is tit for tat, but one side is superior to the other and the oppressed are suffering.
I was very interested in Senator Browne's comments. He warned against the commercialisation of research and talked about the debate at the health committee about assisted reproduction and the need for proper regulation of that area. I know couples who have been helped by IVF to realise their dreams. I hope there is no debate about it because it is a very good thing. The type of debate about which he speaks would be good if we could do it.
I thank Senator White for raising the trafficking of women for sex. I hope to produce my own Private Members' Bill next week. It will not be taken until the autumn, but my Bill is well thought out. We were all shocked when we saw the story on "Prime Time" because it was dreadful, but then it dropped like a stone. This is because they were women and it was an easy thing to do.
Hear, hear.
It is a terrible crime and is done on a nightly basis. I hope the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will accept my Bill.
Senator Quinn spoke graciously and expressed his regrets to Senator Ryan, which were needed and well merited. I am sure Senator Ryan accepted them. He sought a debate on stem cell research. He also spoke about credit card debt and recommended that people use the proceeds of their SSIAs to clear personal debt, which would be a good idea before embarking on another credit card splurge.
Senator Coghlan sensibly asked about next week's schedule. While we are likely to be sitting for five days, we are not sure yet. It depends on the outcome in the Dáil of Report and Final Stages of the Criminal Justice Bill. If we sit on Monday we will commence at 3 p.m. to allow people to come from the country. The legislation to be taken next week will be as follows: the Criminal Justice Bill; the Hepatitis C Compensation Tribunal (Amendment) Bill; the Institutes of Technology Bill; the Building Societies (Amendment) Bill; and the Investment Funds, Companies and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill. The Senator also asked about Committee Stage of the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Bill, which will take place in the autumn, when he is refreshed from his stay in Kerry.
He will be staying in the Great Southern Hotel.
We will also take the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill back from the Dáil. That is the programme and Senators should gird their loins.
Senator Henry spoke about embryonic stem cell research. Whatever way the Senator put her words, they epitomised to me the complexity of the issue. While she expressed concerns about the moral aspects, she also expressed concern about potential benign effects for people suffering from various ills.
Senator Mansergh spoke about the two Europa Nostra Awards for the curvilinear glasshouse project at the National Botanic Gardens and the work of the Irish Georgian Society, which is excellent. The Irish Georgian Society ploughed a very lonely furrow for many years, possibly because of our colonial hang-ups, which I hope have gone.
Let us mention Desmond Guinness in particular as he won the individual award.
The Senator is quite right, the award made to the Honourable Desmond Guinness is to be commended.
While I do not want to be seen to correct my colleague in combat, Senator Bannon, the competitiveness of industry has not decreased; it has increased. A particular report has recently been published. I accept what he said about Iarnród Éireann and the unreliability of a certain train. I am not sure whether the Senator was on the train or was told about it. Those on the train coming from Sligo needed to change at Maynooth. In a modern age with benchmarking and wonderful arrangements between everybody, it is difficult to weed out every glitch in the system.
It has happened more than once.
I know all about it.
In addition to expressing anger at the train delays, Senator Terry also spoke about the postal delays, which occur everywhere. I live 100 yd from the sorting office. If I get my mail, it arrives at approximately 3 p.m., which is an amazing phenomenon. I understand An Post has a new man at the helm. Changes always take place and I hope this will continue to be the case.
Senator McHugh as always spoke with great empathy about cancer services. He said that peripherality should not be used as an excuse for not making services available, which is correct. It is easy to refer to peripherality especially for those who live on islands or, as the Senator does, in a remote part of the country. He listened to the debate about the unreliability of trains and wished that he could have a train service to Donegal, regardless of whether it was reliable.
I heard the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, speak about acute services as opposed to palliative services. Palliative services can always be offered regardless of how remote is the region. However, this is not true for the acute services unless they are grouped in an area. The Senator outlined a feasible grouping of acute services. It is unacceptable for patients to undergo a seven-hour journey, followed by treatment and then another seven-hour journey home, and they may face further issues on arrival home. The Senator fights the good fight and I hope he will ultimately get what he seeks, as it is strong policy.
Senator Fitzgerald is very passionate about the postal service and what it has meant to him. While I could not quite follow the episode he outlined, it seems to be quite nasty and particularly unreliable. I hope that a way to rectify the issue can be found. I advise the Senator and Senator Terry that we will not be able to hold a debate next week. However, I can promise it for the week when we come back.
Will the Leader inform the Minister of the situation?
I will.
Order of Business agreed to.