Senator Jim Walsh was in possession. He has four minutes remaining.
Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
There is an argument for changing from multi-seat to single seat constituencies, as Senator Bradford said last week. There have been unsuccessful referenda on this subject. My first political campaign was for this change in the late 1960s. I have observed multi-seat constituencies since and see that there is a need for close scrutiny of, and constructive debate on, single seat constituencies. Those of us involved in politics are slow to move from a system in which we found success to a new one.
There are tremendous demands on politicians. I live in a five-seat constituency where many events place demands on the politicians which is not the most productive use of their time. This probably also has an impact on the quality of service. In some instances people concentrate on the immediate area that is the source of their core vote. There are four main urban areas in Wexford which fall into the four electoral divisions for local government and consequently there is a local base of support for candidates in a general election. There is an argument for considering a single-seat transferable vote system which would encourage a more focused approach from the Member and give him or her a closer identification with the area. This might be also more efficient.
This Bill originated after the 1977 general election when a reconfiguration of the constituencies by the then Minister for Local Government, Jim Tully, backfired spectacularly. Jack Lynch, I think, undertook to set up an independent commission to examine the constituencies. There are no politicians, current or past on these commissions. It seems odd to exclude people who may have spent their lives in that career from commissions whether examining boundaries or issues concerning the electoral process.
Like Senators Coffey and Cassidy, and others, I have complained about the exclusion of councillors from many national bodies. Officials are less enthusiastic, however, about excluding themselves. These commissions are dominated by officials who have no direct experience of politics. I would prefer a system which involved people from all parties considering electoral issues with certain criteria, such as respecting county boundaries.
I am amazed at local election time to see urban areas excluded from town council elections. Many people are aggrieved at this because they depend on their local town councillors to service the area in which they live but cannot choose those representatives.
The local government and European Parliament elections are on our doorstep. Apart from boundary issues there is a reference in the Bill to curtailing expenditure, which is right. In general elections large sums of money can be spent from six months before the election to the date on which it is called. There should be a longer time limit on expenditure while allowing people time to get their messages across to the electorate. That requires striking a fine balance.
Democracy will come under pressure in Western countries because of their economic situations and it behoves those of us involved to ensure our actions are measured and fit for their purpose.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the Second Stage debate on this Bill.
The Bill applies fundamentally to our democracy and how this Parliament and the European Parliament are established. The provisions of the Bill will affect the number of representatives we elect to Dáil Éireann and to the European Parliament. It is essential that the Bill is in place and that it reflects the existing demographic in the country. That is what it sets out to do, which is why Fine Gael generally agrees with this Bill.
We also support the idea of an independent constituency commission. In the past, politicians were directly involved in the drawing of boundaries, and it left the issue open to attack from those who would be cynical or otherwise. It is important we recognise the total independence of the commission in law. Fine Gael fully supports that. I take Senator Walsh's point that since politicians are directly engaged with their electorate daily, it might be a good idea to allow them to be directly involved with the commission. However, there are sufficient mechanisms within this Bill to allow politicians and political parties make submissions to the independent commission. I certainly hope that any submissions made by public elected representatives or their parties are fully taken into account by the commission.
The membership of the commission is set out quite clearly in the Bill. The commission is composed of esteemed members, and I do not think anybody could doubt their merit. It consists of a judge of the Supreme Court, the Ombudsman, the Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Clerk of the Dáil and the Clerk of the Seanad. These are all esteemed people who are fully aware of the demands and the significance of a system that is so important to a democratic institution. We are quite happy with the constitution of that commission and the concept of independence that goes with it.
It has been set down that the number of Dáil Deputies will remain at 166, who will represent the 43 constituencies throughout the country. It is important our elected representation is reflective of the ratio in each constituency. We would not like to see larger urban areas that have grown massively in recent years, such as Dublin West, having a representation in the Dáil that is below the national average. It is incumbent on the Government to ensure our electoral system is constantly reviewed to reflect fairly and equitably the population numbers in those constituencies. For that reason alone, it is important to have a very accurate census. The last census was in 2006, and some claims were made that it was not very accurate, but I believe it was as accurate as possible. However, the census needs to be reviewed and updated constantly. If there are more efficient or more accurate ways of collecting census figures, we should always take on board those views because parliamentary representation is taken from those figures. It is vital we have an accurate census from the beginning.
I am from Waterford, but I am sympathetic to people in County Leitrim who feel in their own hearts that they are not represented in the national Parliament, because they do not have a constituency in their own right. How that circle is squared is up to the commission, and I hope that rather than just look at numbers, it looks at real ways where people can feel represented. The commission has been given terms of reference by the Minister on population ratios, but I believe there should be a term of reference that allows people from places like Leitrim to be represented, so that their views can be taken into account. All politics is local to some extent. If I were from Leitrim and I did not have a Leitrim person in the Parliament speaking on my behalf, I would feel I did not have the same access to representation as people from other constituencies. The Minister of State is very near that hinterland and has represented some of those people in the past, so I am sure he is very sympathetic to that view.
Waterford shed quite a bit of its population to the constituency of Tipperary South. The northern boundary of County Waterford, from the Clonmel suburbs down to places like Kilmanahan and Ballymacarbery and on towards places like Derrinlaur near Carrick-on-Suir is now in the Tipperary South constituency for general elections. However, local elections and local administration are under the auspices of Waterford County Council. From speaking to a few people in the area, they often feel that there is a conflict between local and national administration. They often feel that they are falling between two stools when they want their voices heard. I do not doubt that the public representatives strive to represent those people as well as representatives represent people in any other constituency. However, they feel at times that as they are from Waterford but in a Tipperary constituency, they are at a slight disadvantage.
County boundaries still mean much to people today. They were set up many years ago and I do not know the full history of them, but people are very loyal to their counties and they feel that an affinity to those counties should be further represented in Parliament. The independent commission needs to take this into account, and I am sure it does the best it can when it comes up with the figures. No system is perfect, but I hope that any redrawn constituency boundaries can keep as much as possible within the county and city boundaries. It is important that people feel represented in the areas with which they identify.
Article 16.2.4° of the Constitution is recognised in the Bill, and it provides that the Oireachtas shall revise the constituencies at least once in every 12 years. With the sharp rise in population in some areas, I believe that the constituencies should be revised more often than once in 12 years. The Bill provides that where population increases are fairly substantial, constituencies are reviewed to reflect proper representation in those areas. Where the initial census figures are produced, the commission can look at those figures at an earlier stage rather than being reactionary and waiting until the population is very large with small representation. It can look at an earlier stage at projections of population increases and make recommendations to the Minister on constituencies. People in those areas would be happier as their needs and demands would be taken into account by an independent body that would make recommendations to the Minister who ultimately has the power to make changes to their constituencies.
I have no strong views on the fact that there are 166 Members in the Dáil. Some people think we should have fewer TDs, but I am not so sure, especially in times of crisis when people are really turning to their public representatives so that their voices are heard in the national Parliament. The figure of 166 is adequate to service those needs, and it is important that people feel they have a voice that is close and accessible to them. The same thing applies to the European Parliament. The Constituency Commission has recommended that Ireland should have 12 MEPs. The Dublin European Parliament constituency will lose a seat. The Longford-Westmeath Dáil constituency, which Senator Cassidy used to represent, will be transferred from the Ireland East European Parliament constituency to the Ireland North-West European Parliament constituency. People from that area will be more familiar with its demographics. I am sure the Constituency Commission investigated such matters adequately.
It is important to have a correct, efficient and accurate register of electors. When Bills of this nature are being drafted, the Constituency Commission needs to rely on the census of population if it is to work properly. I am a member of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which is doing a great deal of work and making recommendations on how to improve this country's system of updating the electoral register. It is recommending that an independent electoral office be established and that dedicated staff be employed to keep the register of electors updated and accurate. It is considering the use of personal public service numbers to ensure there are no forgeries and no misinformation gets onto our register. Fundamentally, our democracy depends on such systems.
I welcome this Bill on behalf of Fine Gael. It uses this country's revised population figures to ensure that the people are represented adequately, which is ultimately and essentially what democracy is all about.
I am a Member of this House once more as a consequence of the foresight of the Constituency Commission. I should mention that I was elected with the permission of Members of the Oireachtas and members of local authorities throughout the country. I consider it to be a great privilege and honour to be a Member of the Seanad. Having said that, politics is defined as the art of the possible.
The Title of the Bill being considered by the House states that it is "an Act to revise Dáil and European Parliament constituencies, to provide for the number of Members to be elected for such constituencies, to amend the law relating to the Constituency Commission, and for those and other purposes to amend the European Parliament Elections Act 1997 and certain other enactments". I am tempted to propose an amendment to the Bill on behalf of the people of north Westmeath, with whom I was bred, born and reared. I have been privileged to represent that area for the past 27 years in the Dáil and the Seanad. I also represented my local area on Westmeath County Council for more than 18 years.
The wisdom of the Constituency Commission leaves a lot to be desired. I mean that in the kindest sense. When the terms of reference of the commission were drawn up, instructing it to observe county boundaries wherever possible, I did not imagine that such little wisdom would be displayed in respect of north Westmeath. Senators have commented that the parliamentary representation of the people of the Dublin West constituency is below the national average. I suggest that 10,000 people in a few small townlands and estates in the Clonee area of the constituency could have been moved into the Meath East constituency, rather than moving 31% of the land area of north Westmeath into a new constituency. The area to which I refer is thinly populated, just like the Cathaoirleach's home area.
It was a serious misjudgment to move part of north Westmeath into the Meath West constituency. It disenfranchised people in north Westmeath. That part of the county did not have a resident Oireachtas Member for many years. In 2002, I was honoured and privileged to be elected to represent the people of north Westmeath. At the time, north Westmeath was included in the then constituency of Westmeath. I will give the House an idea of what it means for such an area to have a Deputy on the Government benches. The people of Mullingar town are aware of a project in respect of which a site has been purchased, tender documents have been agreed and a contractor has been appointed. The Minister for Education and Science will open the head office in Mullingar, which will be staffed by more than 320 people. I can say with certainty that the project in question would not be as advanced if the people of the area had not elected me to represent them in the Dáil, on the Government side, at the 2002 general election.
Good man.
Until that election, beautiful hospital buildings in County Westmeath had been standing idle for between 11 and 12 years because no money had been available to fit them out or tog them out. The people of that area had not been well served by the failure to secure funding for the hospital in question. The state-of-the-art wards at the hospital are now open, thank God. I congratulate everyone in the Government who was associated with the project, including the then Minister for Finance, who is now the Taoiseach. He provided money on foot of the strong and consistent representations that I made on a weekly basis in that regard.
There is a new fire station in the Castlepollard area, which I represent. Would it have been developed as quickly if the people of the area had not elected me in 2002? A new state-of-the-art sewerage system is serving the development that has taken place in the village of Castlepollard, where I was bred, born and reared. There is a state-of-the-art one-stop-shop in the new Westmeath County Council offices. People can use the new facility to apply for planning permission, meet engineers, tax their cars and get driving licences. The membership of the local library, which is in a rural area, has been trebled to ensure it remains self-sufficient in Castlepollard. I assisted in that process, as a Member of the Oireachtas at the time. The Minister in the neighbouring constituency, Deputy Dempsey, approved the development of a second-level college, Coláiste Cionn Torc. The college has now been built and is hugely successful. Not only is it educating students during the day, but it is also providing night classes in a rural area. I am proud that my 23 years of hard work helped to bring that project to fruition.
These things are even more important for rural Ireland during the current economic downturn than they were when the economy was going well. I cannot understand why the Constituency Commission, in its wisdom, did not move a small portion of the Clonee area into Meath East, where the numbers badly need to be increased to give the people adequate representation, rather than decimating all of north Westmeath. As I have said, 31% of the land area of north Westmeath has been taken. Having said that, I continue to represent the people of north Westmeath as a Member of the Oireachtas. I am honoured and privileged to be the Leader of Seanad Éireann, with the status of the Government's representative in this House.
Hear, hear.
I will do the best I can for the people of north Westmeath, who have been disenfranchised. I refer to people in my home village of Castlepollard and other villages such as Collinstown, Delvin, Fore, where my mother was bred, born and reared, Drumcree, Clonmellon, Riverdale, Whitehall and Crookedwood. People in such areas were not represented by a resident Member of the Dáil for many years. As Senator Coffey said, all politics is local. Every area deserves its fair share of representation in Dáil Éireann, as all areas enjoy at local authority level.
All Senators are aware that the register of electors is important. I am convinced that when a family moves into an area, the first person to know about it is the local postperson, whether it is a postman or a postwoman. Some years ago, the first person to know would have been the local doctor, priest or garda, but that is no longer the case. I propose that the Minister should consider, on a once-off pilot basis, giving responsibility to postpersons for compiling the next register of electors that will be required. They will carry out that function with 97% or 98% accuracy because they are familiar with everyone who lives in or moves into an area. I worked in such a position for four years and ten months when I was starting out in life. I know exactly what is involved in accurately tabulating and compiling the register of electors. It involves maintaining a list of those who are residing in an area until the date on which the register is published. At present, we are asking public servants in other fields to undertake the onerous task of compiling the register of electors. Such people do not knock on doors, call with post or visit on a weekly basis as postpersons do. The Minister should examine this suggestion to see what can be done to ensure the register of electors is as accurate as we all need it to be. I have made this suggestion in the House on previous occasions. I am aware that the former Minister, Deputy Roche, considered it when he was responsible for this area. If it is accepted, we will make a great deal of progress with the compilation of the register of electors.
The European Parliament elections have been mentioned. I am probably the longest-serving substitute in Europe for a Member of the European Parliament. This is my 25th year as a substitute. It gives me no great pleasure to say that people in the north Leinster area were disenfranchised again when the Longford-Westmeath Dáil constituency was placed in the Ireland North-West European Parliament constituency.
The Senator is very welcome.
Parts of the four provinces will fall within that one constituency area. From that point of view, we might examine the provision of single seat constituencies for the European Parliament in the future. The new constituency in which Longford-Westmeath will be placed, that of the old Connacht-Ulster constituency, covers a massive area, illustrated by the long distance from Malin Head in Donegal to the furthermost part of Clare or to my parish of Castlepollard.
Because I am under the three-line Whip of the Fianna Fáil Party, to which I signed a pledge when I took the oath for the office I hold, I certainly will have to support the passage of this Bill, but I do so reluctantly and with a heavy heart.
I am pleased to have this opportunity to make a few points on the Bill. Prior to doing so, I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, to the public Gallery and encourage all members of the Cabinet to come to the Seanad and hear first hand the quality of debate and scrutiny of legislation that takes place here. I also welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, to the House as this is my first opportunity to do so.
My main issue with the Bill concerns the situation in Sligo-North Leitrim and Leitrim in general. I firmly believe it can never be allowed happen again that a county is left without a county man or woman to represent its people's interests in the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is wholly inappropriate to do that. It has happened because we are designing a set of clinical parameters within which we must operate.
On the day Deputy Cowen became Taoiseach of this country, he said we should not be bound or restricted by independent reports. I agree with his assertion in that regard. While it is important to have a level of independence in drawing up electoral boundaries, they are brought back to the Oireachtas for us to debate their merits and consider the difficulties that arise from sticking to the parameters which are clinical.
If we were to focus specifically on numbers of population alone, the factual position would be that in 20 or 30 years' time, we would have 100 TDs in the greater Pale or Leinster area with a concentration around Cork and Limerick and none in the west. What would we do then? Many Departments, State agencies and other bodies would have the west and north west as the sole destination and weekend retreat for those in the gin and tonic belts in Dublin and elsewhere who could look forward to going there and perhaps seeing the likes of Peig Sayers looking out over a half door, smoking a pipe and having a pint of Guinness. However, much more than that happens in the west. We are no less contributors to this great State.
Whatever has to be done must be done to take due cognisance of county boundaries to ensure that all Twenty-six Counties, and in the fullness of time I hope all Thirty-two Counties, would have at least one representative in the Houses of the Oireachtas in order that he or she can bring to the table the unique views of his or her county colleagues in all the relevant debates on legislation and issues of public concern.
Some years ago the national spatial strategy, of which I am a huge fan, was published to great acclaim, but I regret it has only emerged and been mentioned from time to time. When a policy is being pursued or a new measure is being introduced, if it is consistent with the spatial strategy, the Ministers in the relevant Departments will say it is in line with the spatial strategy. When it is not in line with the strategy, they will say a sufficient population is not in the region to support it. That is the case, but if we were to adopt that approach, we might as well shut down the west. We might as well say there is no reason Bord Gáis Éireann should spread its network because there are insufficient people in the region or there is no reason the ESB network should upgrade its facilities in lower populated parts of the country. We might well ask why are we rolling out broadband to the western region. If we were to follow through on the same kind of parameters, which must be followed by the electoral commission, we would effectively shut down the least populated parts of the country.
The spatial strategy envisaged the creation of capacity before demand and that, rather than having the conurbation that has become the eastern region around Dublin, pressure would be taken off cities such as Dublin, Cork, Belfast, Galway, Limerick and Waterford by other gateway cities such as Sligo, Letterkenny and gateway towns in the centre of the country playing their part in terms of the increase in population predicted in coming years. I would like there to be a return of focus to that policy, but it must be a prerequisite that we seek to invest in all parts of these counties equitably and not merely based on a per capita criterion, which is flawed in itself. We must begin to spread equally all levels of infrastructural investment throughout this country and create extra capacity in those parts of the country that are better placed to take it rather than only in the larger cities where costs are higher and quality and standards of living are under more pressure because of the numbers already living there.
I ask the Minister of State to take on board a few of those points. Given the part of the country from which I come, I stress that the Leitrim situation can never be repeated. My colleague, Senator Ellis, raised this issue on the last occasion we discussed this Bill. That is not to suggest the people of Leitrim are not getting a sterling level of service from the Deputies who represent the constituency in which it falls, including the county of Leitrim, in the other House, or from the Senators in this House. However, it is only right and proper that they should have one of their own representatives, from whatever party or none, representing their views in the Lower House and in this House.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House. Like Senator MacSharry, I am deeply concerned about the situation in Leitrim, to which I will refer later. I would like first to discuss the issue of Kerry. The speculation prior to emergence of the report was that Kerry would be a five-seater constituency, a reduction in the current number given that Kerry North and Kerry South both have three Deputies. I am sure members of the commission see Kerry only on their holidays. To ask a person to represent a county that stretches all the way from Lauragh up to Tarbert, a journey that would take two hours to complete by road, is impractical in the extreme. The bean counters were not doing Kerry a favour when they decided to retain the three seats — the figures must have simply added up. They were no doubt looking at maps and putting pins on them. This proposal does not reflect the reality of trying to represent such a vast constituency. The electoral commission has already done a disservice to counties such as Mayo, which has a huge sprawling constituency stretching from Claremorris all the way to Bellmullet. As the Cathaoirleach would know, that journey to Bellmullet is a long one when canvassing for a Seanad election. Bellmullet is a lovely place on a fine summer's day but it is not ideal in the depths of winter.
The Constituency Commission did not decide to do likewise in terms of Kerry. It joined north Kerry in with west Limerick. Having lived in Limerick for some time, next to a former Minister for Justice, Gerry Collins, I am glad we have got a little of Limerick in the constituency, and Limerick might benefit from our football. Unfortunately, however, for the people of west Limerick who were used to the services of the Collinses, Deputy Cregan and others, they are now being represented on the county council by their councillors and in the Oireachtas by Deputy McEllistrim among others. When the commission writes another report, which we will be asked to rubber-stamp, there is nothing to say Kerry will not end up in the same situation as Mayo.
Although it is far removed from my own county geographically, the situation in regard to County Leitrim is disturbing for us all. While Senator Ellis does an excellent job representing the people of Leitrim in the Oireachtas, it is vital for any county to have its own Dáil representative. It is my view that the commission breached its terms of reference in this regard and, in so doing, has done a great disservice to public representation. In reaching its recommendation, the commission ignored the petition signed by 14,000 Leitrim people. Of the 327 submissions received by the commission, 241 were from residents of that county. Why did the commission bother to seek submissions if it intended simply to ignore them? It seems it was concerned merely with looking at the numbers. If this situation is not rectified, one or more Leitrim voters may ultimately take constitutional action. Leitrim people are well represented in Dublin city in various guises. The current situation cannot continue in the long run.
It is clearly unacceptable that the Leader could not vote for himself in the last election. County boundaries are extremely significant in Gaelic football and other sports. People have an affinity with their county and feel great loyalty towards it. When it is divided for administrative purposes, as the commission has done in several instances, this sense of connection is lost. The situations of Kerry North and Limerick West and of Offaly and North Tipperary, which is of interest to the Cathaoirleach, are similarly unsatisfactory. Recommendations are being made by bean counters. As public representatives, we will be accused of gerrymandering if we are seen to interfere with their decisions. In the case of Leitrim, however, public representatives must intervene.
We have a long history of boundary commissions, the most famous being the one which gave its verdict in 1926 and which came up with results that did not suit us. We were given many promises in the negotiations that led to the treaty establishing the Free State by learned men such as Winston Churchill and Lloyd George. They did not live up to their words, as they often failed to do. Their words were not worth the paper on which they were written.
I am glad Kerry has not been as badly affected as Mayo, for example. I ask the Leader to intervene on behalf of the people of County Leitrim.
I support much of what was said by colleagues in regard to the work of the commission and its recommendations. The background to this constituency review was the indication in the most recent census figures of an increase in population of more than 320,000 from 2002 to 2006, giving an average of 25,541 voters for each of the 166 Dáil Deputies. None of us has a difficulty with the establishment of the commission for the purpose of bringing about a more equitable spread of constituents per Dáil Member in view of the fact that some constituencies were over-represented while others were under-represented.
When the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, spoke in the Dáil last September, he outlined the main features of the constituency commission's report into Dáil constituencies. He pointed out that there would be no change in the current level of Dáil membership. We all welcome the recommendation that the number of Members should remain at 166. He indicated that the number of constituencies, at 43, would remain the same and that no change would be made in 19 of those constituencies. Thus, change was to be recommended in the remaining 24. The Minister explained that the Louth and Dublin West constituencies were to increase by one seat, with changes to be made in the areas covered by these constituencies. These changes arose from the increase in population in these areas as people moved out of Dublin city and into the suburbs and neighbouring counties. The Dún Laoghaire and Limerick East constituencies were to be reduced by one seat, with the latter to be renamed Limerick City and changes to be made in the areas covered by both constituencies.
Senator Daly referred to the creation of the new constituency of Kerry North-West Limerick. The Leader, likewise, made particular reference to his own constituency. I empathise with his position. Having represented the people of his constituency as a Member of Dáil Éireann, the changes recommended by the commission have disenfranchised that representation. We all agree with the point made by Senator Ellis and the general view from County Leitrim. While the commission's terms of reference may have been a little vague, the decision to disenfranchise a county is always wrong. If the terms of reference were not sufficient to give this type of protection, they should have been corrected and proper direction given to the commission prior to the commencement of its work. On the other hand, it may be that the commission did not implement the terms of reference it received.
Coming from County Donegal, which is to the north west of County Leitrim, I am aware that the people of that county are disappointed not to have their own Deputy. While they are receiving excellent representation in the northern part of the county from the Sligo-North Leitrim representatives, the county as a distinct entity should have been protected. Senator Ellis made the case in this regard much better than I could ever do. I wholeheartedly support everything he said on this matter. I will go further by supporting the questioning he put forward of the commission's work, whether in the sense that its term of reference were too narrow or vague or, alternatively, that it did not fully implement the terms of reference it received.
The Electoral (Amendment) Bill refers not only to the Dáil constituencies but also to the European Parliament constituencies and local government electoral areas. I understand it is a matter ultimately for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to bring about changes to local electoral areas, of which there are 83. An issue that could and perhaps should have been addressed in this Bill is that of the disparity of spending levels between different local election candidates, with some spending vast sums in the absence of any upper limit. We hear stories, for example, of candidates spending in excess of €50,000. Spending limits should be imposed on candidates in all elections, including local elections. This issue should be addressed before the next local elections to ensure there is a more level playing field for all candidates. Currently, some choose to spend very little while others spend huge sums. There must be some level of comparability and equality in terms of candidate expenditure in local elections.
Much has been said about the different constituencies and about the work of the commission, bringing into question its remit and its implementation of the terms of reference. I support that position, especially with regard to the geographical area of County Leitrim. I hope the Minister, Deputy Gormley, will take another look at this issue but I do not believe that will happen. It does not rest well. I do not come from County Leitrim but from the neighbouring county and I know the position of the people of County Leitrim. Senator Ellis speaks on their behalf in this House. From speaking to people in the county I know they feel their county has been torn apart.
We should never forget the way this country was founded, on the baile fearainn, the townland and the county boundary. That was sacrosanct. On Saturday night we had the 125th anniversary of the GAA in Croke Park. That association represented the baile fearainn, the townland and the parish, from which the GAA club came. The county boundary defined the county individuals played for. The commission's remit should have been restricted to coincide with that structure which was founded a long time ago and has stood the test of time, both electorally and, in sporting terms, within the Gaelic Athletic Association.
I am not sure what can be done about listening to the concerns of residents, especially in County Leitrim but also in other counties. The population will rise or fall but it will not remain stagnant. The population is decreasing rather than increasing. Perhaps the figures are out of date even before the Bill has been implemented into legislation. If a boundary commission is ever again to be established, its terms of reference should be very clear and unambiguous and its findings should be debated in both Houses of the Oireachtas before they go for implementation. It is important to give elected representatives their say before a commission implements terms of reference. We should all have a say on specific terms of reference in respect of our communities before the matter is handed over to a commission that was not elected and which does not represent any area. I do not call into question the professionalism of the individuals involved but I believe democracy should have its say before terms of reference are decided and implemented.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, to the House. The main purpose of the Bill is to implement the recommendations in the report of the independent Constituency Commission on revisions to Dáil and European Parliament constituencies, published in October 2007. In addition, the Bill amends the law relating to the constituency revision process and provides for the introduction of alternative procedures for the nomination of non-party candidates at European Parliament and local government elections. Parts 2 and 3 provide for implementation of the recommendations of the Constituency Commission's report on Dáil and European Parliament constituencies. Article 16.2.4° of the Constitution provides that: "The Oireachtas shall revise the constituency at least once in every twelve years, with due regard to changes in distribution of population". This article requires that constituencies be revised whenever population changes, as shown in a census, bring about population to Deputy ratios in individual constituencies that are significantly out of line with the national average. That is the case now and the Oireachtas must respond accordingly.
In accordance with section 5 of the 1997 Act, a constituency commission was set up in April 2007, chaired by Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill. The other members of the commission were Mr. Kieran Coughlan, Clerk of the Dáil, Ms Deirdre Lane, Clerk of the Seanad, Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Ms Emily O'Reilly, the Ombudsman. The main features of the commission's report on the Dáil constituencies were as follows: there should be no change in the existing level of Dáil membership, namely, 166 seats; the total number of constituencies should remain at 43 and no change should be made in 19 constituencies; there should be an increase of one seat in both Louth and Dublin West constituencies, together with changes in the areas covered by the constituencies; there should be a reduction of one seat in both Dún Laoghaire and Limerick East constituencies, with the latter to be renamed as Limerick City and there should be changes in the areas covered by the constituencies; the area and names of two constituencies should change, with Kerry North and Limerick West to be amended to Kerry North-West Limerick and Limerick, respectively; and six changes, many of which are small, should be made to the areas of 18 other constituencies.
Like many who spoke in the House last week and today, I am disappointed with the commission's recommendations in respect of a number of constituencies but particularly concerning the division of County Leitrim. I come from County Cavan which borders a good part of that county and I am familiar with the thinking of the people there. They are disgusted by the decision and the recommendation before us in the Bill. They believe they have been disenfranchised. This happened before. They were divided for 20 years until 1981 when the constituency became Sligo-Leitrim and remained so until the previous general election. They were very disappointed on that occasion but were given to understand that when the constituency came again for revision, County Leitrim would once again become the constituency of Sligo-Leitrim and hold its county boundaries. As Senator Ellis stated the other day and as Senator Coffey noted today, the people of a county feel they should have a representative who was born in that county. Unless the recommendations of this report are changed, the people of County Leitrim will never again have a native-born person representing them. That is a fact.
Senator Ellis raised a point of order with the Minister, Deputy Gormley, and asked him to clarify that the main feature of the commission's report in respect of Dáil constituencies was that no change was to come in the existing level of Dáil membership of 166 seats. He asked if that were the true position and the Minister responded that it was. Senator Ellis has received independent legal advice which suggests that, if such is the case, this Bill is unconstitutional. Last week, Senator Ellis said in his contribution on this Bill that he had made requests under the Freedom of Information Act 1997 regarding the report. He was told that no information can be provided as this is a sacrosanct decision. He also contacted the Ombudsman who made the same ruling and told him the only place where this Bill could be challenged was in the High Court.
It is very regrettable that a public representative, not to mention an ordinary member of the public, is not entitled to see the documentation relating to how this commission came to its decision. Senator Ellis is convinced, as are many of the public representatives in County Leitrim, that this Bill is unconstitutional and, if challenged, would fail. This is where I disagree with Senator Coffey. If the commission had decided to increase the number of Deputies from 166 to 168, which it was entitled to do, this would have avoided the counties of Limerick, Meath and Leitrim being divided. This decision is regrettable and should be re-examined. I appeal to the Minister of State to appeal to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, to revisit this before it ends up in the courts. I am assured by Senator Ellis that this will happen. The people of county Leitrim feel disenfranchised. That is not good enough.
I pay tribute to the Dáil and Seanad representatives who represent Leitrim. They are excellent, first class public representatives, but the people of County Leitrim are entitled to have their boundaries reinstated. A six-seater constituency of Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon could be created to effect this.
Regarding the European Parliament constituencies, I welcome the fact that counties Westmeath and Longford are in the constituency of North-West, joining the provinces of Connacht and Ulster and County Clare. This gives the opportunity to the people of the part of the country from which I come, Cavan, Monaghan and Leitrim, a realistic opportunity of having somebody elected to the European Parliament. I welcome that fact and look forward to the Minister's comments, especially on County Leitrim.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, to the House. This is an interesting debate on constituency revisions and the Bill. The commission is composed of very worthy people and they are very conscientious, but they rely on the statistics and personnel of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. With respect, I do not know whether one can have a completely independent and neutral commission if one relies on statistics, facts, figures and maps from the Department which may influence the division of constituencies. I bring this up because my first constituency, in 1977, was Roscommon-South Leitrim. Because of the constituency composition, the outgoing Deputy, Pat Joe Reynolds, from Ballinamore, County Leitrim, lost his seat. The late Sean Doherty, Joan Burke, who is hale and hearty, and I represented Roscommon-South Leitrim. Senator Ellis was elected a Senator at that election and worked very hard in that constituency. The other Deputies and I gave great attention to the southern part of County Leitrim, which we represented. However that does not mean there was a Leitrim Deputy at that time.
The next constituency I was involved in was the Roscommon part of Galway-East, which was the constituency of the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt. It was very fortunate for me that Galway was right beside where I lived in Castlecoote. However, it affected the political future of Tom Hussey, a sitting Deputy, whose whole base was removed from him. That was not very fair. I personalise this because the best way to explain how constituencies affect people is to illustrate how they affect oneself.
The independent commission of 1991 drew up the great idea of retaining two three-seat constituencies in County Mayo, against all the numerical odds, taking parts of Galway in one part of the constituency, and leaving Roscommon tied up with County Longford. This is as defective as the south Leitrim situation, if not more so, because Longford is in the province of Leinster. We had the River Shannon between Roscommon and Longford with only two points where both counties could be accessed, in fact the bridge at Lanesborough was the only bridge that directly linked into the constituency of Longford. One of the members of the commission, who was representing the Clerk of the Dáil, suggested I buy a boat, which was very worthy of him and a very helpful suggestion. It was a four-seat constituency.
Did Senator Leyden go canvassing on a boat?
It was so I could cross the Shannon to canvass Longford.
It did not stop him during the Seanad election.
The point is that it broke every rule. I regret to some extent not taking a High Court case because I was eliminated, having lost part of Galway and gained Longford. The survey did not comply, and that is why I would not give much hope to a High Court case because the commission broke the rules on natural boundaries. The River Shannon is the largest river in these islands.
It rises in Cavan.
Yes. It divided us right down. The constituency included two provinces, Leinster and Connacht, two health board areas and two tourism areas. Everything was separate. However, the commission had no regard for any submissions I made to it. The same applies to part of County Offaly, where the President of the United States has roots. Part of that area is gone into Tipperary, which is very inconvenient for the people of Offaly. It is a great opportunity for Offaly that the great grandson of a native of County Offaly is President of the United States. That the area has gone into Tipperary means they are not happy there, however.
There is a better way of doing this job and it must be examined very carefully. The political parties must examine this situation in the future. The people of County Leitrim feel terribly disenfranchised although they have hard-working Deputies who do their utmost for them in Sligo-Leitrim in Deputies Scanlon, Perry and Devins and in Longford-Roscommon in the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Finneran, and Deputies Feighan and Naughten. They also have Senator Ellis working very hard in County Leitrim. There is no other resident Senator working in the area. I can say without fear or favour that Senator Ellis has a full-time constituency office and has given as good a service as any Deputy would give. He was nominated by the then Taoiseach,Deputy Bertie Ahern, who recognised that Leitrim had to have a representative in the Oireachtas.
I would not hold my breath regarding the changes. This will not be the change for the general election in 2011 or whenever it is. They will be due to numerical and population changes. The change to the economy will affect the population in different areas through unemployment, and other issues will affect the outcome of the next Constituency Commission.
Concerning the European constituencies, with a certain contradiction I welcome Longford and Westmeath to the North-West constituency. It gives an opportunity for somebody in that area. There was a Leitrim MEP in the past and he survived the situation where he had no hinterland such as any candidate will have now. It is a very unwieldy constituency and will be very difficult to represent, but I wish the MEPs every success.
I decided to give my personal experience of this area. It is very unfair on the Leader of this House that his area went into Meath. It is very unfair on sitting Deputies whose constituencies have been divided in such a way that they are completely disenfranchised and they live in one constituency and represent another. The same applies to the local government changes where some places are very unsatisfactory. For example, in County Roscommon an area has been created, as a consequence of which one of my colleagues, Councillor Paddy Kilduff, must change to another area to be re-elected, he hopes, next June. There are question marks against such divisions also. They are very unfair on those who have served the public. Some regard should be had to the position of sitting Deputies or councillors in an area in order that they are not removed from their electoral base. It is grossly unfair on them if they are left out in the cold in that way. Senator Cassidy was particularly badly treated in that regard. Some Deputies also lost out.
Deputy Johnny Brady in his home town.
Deputy Brady's home area was transferred from his constituency to that of Meath East.
The Minister is in a difficult position. He must comply with the legislation under which the commission was set up. We do not want to return to the Tully gerrymandering which benefited Fianna Fáil in 1969. Those days are gone. This is a step in the right direction, but the matter needs to be looked at again. When terms of reference are given, they should be complied with by the commission. I make one appeal: that the commission be advised by eminent specialists from the universities who are totally independent on maps and population. With respect to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and its officials, I cannot see how they are independent if under ministerial control. I know what I would do if I was in the Department and what other Ministers have done.
Is the Senator saying they would gerrymander?
No, they would not, but they might express an interest in certain areas. I remember the creation of a particular four-seat constituency in north Dublin. As somebody involved in the commission was very anxious for an appointment, he did not do any harm to the sitting Deputies.
I thank Senators on all sides of the House for their contributions to the debate which was interesting. Because I was only here for part of it I cannot comment on all that was said, but I was very interested in what I heard. In the time available I will respond to some of the issues raised; matters can be examined in more detail on Committee Stage.
Most Senators acknowledged the integrity and independence of the Constituency Commission, to which I express my thanks for its work. Some Senators had difficulties with specific recommendations made by it. I understand these concerns, including those expressed about County Leitrim by Senator Ellis and others. However, we must bear in mind that constituency formulation is not a perfect science. People do not always live in areas that enable constituencies to be drawn in a way that meets with general approval. The overriding constitutional requirement of equality of representation means that breaches of obvious boundaries are unavoidable in certain cases. In looking at the commission's report and recommendations the Minister is in the same position as every other Member of the House in that he has no information on process or substance other than that set out in its report. In constituency revision somebody's interests must inevitably be affected. That is the price we must pay for our democratic system. We are all agreed that the job should be entrusted to a commission. The commission has done the job in the way that seemed best to it. The House should therefore accept its report as framed in the Bill.
The debate shows the strong attachment to county boundaries. While such attachment is understandable, the terms of reference of the commission are subordinate to the relevant constitutional provisions which do not refer to counties. In the High Court judgment of Mr. Justice Budd in the O'Donovan case it was stated on page 146:
. . . although a system in the main based on counties has in fact been adopted, there is nothing in the Constitution about constituencies being based on counties. The Constitution does not say that in forming the constituencies according to the required ratio, that shall be done so far as is practicable having regard to county boundaries.
There is, therefore, no absolute prohibition on the breaching of county boundaries. The experience has been that at times the constitutional provisions require such action, difficult though it may be. The 2007 commission report is no different in this regard.
Some contributors to the debate, including Senators Buttimer and Hannigan, referred to the procedures to be followed by the commission in carrying out its work. As the Minister said in his opening statement, the Bill provides for updated and improved consultation arrangements, including a minimum of three months for the making of submissions to the commission. These are important new measures that will be implemented, while retaining the essential framework that has allowed the commission to operate effectively for many years. I urge people to engage to the maximum extent possible in the process at the appropriate time rather than waiting until after the commission has reported to express their views.
A number of Senators, including Senators Boyle and Bacik, commented on the proposals in the Bill regarding nominations. Regulating access to the electoral process is a common feature of most parliamentary democracies and widely seen as necessary to discourage an overly large number from contesting an election. The proposals made in the Bill strike the right balance, providing for a reasonable test of the bona fides of a prospective candidate, while not setting the conditions so high as to unduly restrict people from seeking election. Candidates who are not in possession of a certificate of political affiliation will now be able to choose which option best suits their circumstances, either collecting a limited number of assents which requires the completion of statutory declarations by assentors in the constituency or lodging a reasonable deposit with the returning officer before the deadline for receiving nominations. This represents a significant improvement on the previous arrangements and, I am satisfied, fully meets the relevant constitutional requirements.
Senators Walsh, Burke, Bradford and others referred to spending limits at the upcoming local elections. The Minister intends to bring forward in the near future a Bill with proposals for legislative change to allow for the introduction of spending limits at these elections. The programme for Government contains a commitment to examine spending limits at local elections as part of the Green Paper on local government. Submissions made in the course of preparing the Green Paper, published in April 2008, were generally supportive of some expenditure limit. Last October the Minister consulted the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the issue. Following on from this and after consideration in the Department and by Government, the Minister hopes to be in a position to announce details of the limits shortly.
Senators Burke, Bacik and Hannigan referred to the need for the establishment of an electoral commission. The House will be aware that the programme for Government contains a commitment to establish an independent electoral commission which will take responsibility for electoral administration and oversight, implement modern and efficient electoral practices, revise constituency boundaries, take charge of compiling a new national rolling electoral register, take over the functions of the Standards in Public Office Commission relating to election spending, and examine the issue of financing the political system. The establishment of an electoral commission will be a major piece of work, with issues arising for consideration, including international best practice, the commission's structure and function, to whom it reports, its relationship with other bodies currently involved, and the approach to be followed with regard to the extensive legislation that will be required. The Department appointed consultants to research the issues arising in the establishment of the commission and make recommendations on the way forward. The consultants' report was received before Christmas and is being examined. This is an important input to future Government decisions in the area.
Senators Coffey, Cassidy, Burke and Hannigan referred to the register of electors. In law, the preparation of the register is a matter for each local registration authority. It is its duty to ensure, as far as possible and with the co-operation of the public, the accuracy and comprehensiveness of the register. In working to compile the register for 2007-08 local authorities undertook and completed, with assistance from my Department, the most extensive registration campaign in decades. On the basis of the work undertaken, I am satisfied that local authorities achieved a significant improvement in the accuracy and comprehensiveness of the register compared to previous years. The task for local authorities with regard to the register for 2009-10 was to maintain and build on the progress made in previous years. Authorities were required to publish the final register for 2009-10 by 1 February 2009 and it is now available for checking. Individuals not on the register can avail of the supplemental register up to 15 days before the next polling day. The recent report of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the future of the electoral register in Ireland and related matters is very welcome. It is consistent with the commitment in the programme for Government to establish an electoral commission with responsibilities to include compiling a new national rolling electoral register, which I have already mentioned.
I was interested in the points raised by the Senators. Senator Daly referred to the breach of county boundaries, Senator Ó Domhnaill spoke about spending limits as well as the breach of county boundaries, Senator Wilson set out the terms of reference while Senator Leyden talked about the changes, with which I am familiar, relating to Galway, Roscommon and Mayo. As a representative from the west, I have always appreciated the support of the other representatives from Galway and Mayo for the projects we are working on, particularly the western rail corridor which travels through many counties on the western seaboard.
To conclude, the Government's view is that the Constituency Commission's recommendations are a package which must be accepted or rejected in its entirety. The Government has decided to follow the established practice of implementing in full the recommendations of the independent commission. That is the best way forward. I thank the Senators again for their contributions to this debate.
Question put and agreed to.
When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?
Next Tuesday.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 10 February 2009.
Sitting suspended at 4.20 p.m. and resumed at 5 p.m.