The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the Croke Park agreement, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 2.30 p.m. on which Senators may speak for ten minutes and may share time by agreement of the House, and with the Minister to be called upon ten minutes from the conclusion of the debate for closing comments. For the information of the House, spokespersons for each group will make their contributions first followed by the Minister.
Order of Business.
At a meeting held on Tuesday evening, attended by Oireachtas Members from County Wexford, the Minister for Health and Children and members of the HSE, Dr. Colm Quigley, who is responsible for the transformation of health services in the south east, stated he would not be able to keep open accident and emergency departments or maternity units unless he breaks the European working time directive until 2012. When challenged, the Minister for Health and Children stated she would not allow the European working time directive to be broken. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House to discuss this matter? This will apply throughout the country to all accident and emergency departments and maternity units, except those in large teaching hospitals in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway. A significant threat will be posed to accident and emergency departments and maternity units in every other hospital in the country if the Minister refuses to allow the European working time directive to be broken. The Minister should come to the House immediately to discuss this because it will lead to a massive reduction of services in accident and emergency departments.
Do the Leader and other Members have a problem with other European parliaments scrutinising Ireland's budget proposals prior to the budget being made public in the Oireachtas? It is unbelievable that the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, is accepting a proposal that essentially states he and his Government cannot be trusted with the public finances. I would like people to point out to me how having control over our budget proposals is anti-European. It is fine if the European Parliament wants to scrutinise it after we have announced our budgets in the Oireachtas. I find that members of the republican party have travelled a long way in being able to give over control of their budgets to the European Parliament.
Senators
Hear, hear.
It might be helpful if both of the main parties calmed down a little on this issue and earthed themselves into what is happening in the real world. The reality is that the discussion document from Europe is hardly an assault on our sovereignty. On the other hand, it is a bit rich for Fianna Fáil to describe Deputy Richard Bruton as a Eurosceptic or jingoistic; that is not his style. We are seeing the first bouts of a general election programme. It behoves those of us who are not involved in the parties to examine this issue with a different view.
The reality is that European conditions on budgetary matters are not anything new. Before we ratified the Maastricht treaty we turned ourselves backwards in order to meet its conditions, including a budget deficit of 3% and 60% debt GNP ratio. Nobody in the main parties felt that was any sort of an imposition or intrusion on our sovereignty. When Deputy Bruton has regularly and correctly raised issues the response from the Government side has been over the top, and has been so on this occasion. He is correct about one thing — there is no openness in budgetary matters, but that was also the case when Fine Gael was in Government, I hasten to add. There is nothing new about that for the rest of us who have always asked for a more open approach to the budget.
Before we continue this debate we should remember that there are 500,000 unemployed people in Ireland and 500,000 people who are struggling with mortgages who know that were it not for European intervention and involvement and the euro, we would be paying mortgage and interest rates four times that which we are currently paying.
Hear, hear.
For those people, me and unemployed people, the idea that Europe might be casting an eye over our budget is far from being an intrusion into our sovereignty. Rather, it is a great reassurance and provides a sense of certainty which I welcome. The idea that we can share our views and discuss them with our European partners in order to ensure that none of the 27 member states goes AWOL again is something which should be proposed and not opposed from all sides. I ask the Government not to take that as support for its position, but to recognise that the questions being raised by Fine Gael are important and need to be responded to properly.
I thank the Leader for the debate on the Croke Park agreement today and its structure, whereby the Minister will respond after hearing views from all different sides. That is important.
I ask that we give some consideration to a point raised by my colleagues, Senators Feargal Quinn and Jim Walsh — who rarely gets things right, as we know, but sometimes raises matters of importance — yesterday. The Supreme Court judgment by Mr. Justice Adrian Hardiman on the tribunals raises issues of extraordinary importance. I do not want to interfere with the tribunals or second guess the Supreme Court. There are issues which should trouble all of us, in terms of how tribunals should operate, and I would like to have a discussion on that. We should not have a blame game, rather we should recognise to where we go from here.
On behalf of the Labour Party, I congratulate Mr. Owen Paterson on his recent appointment as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Like many people in this House, I am a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which meets on regular occasions, and as a result I have had the opportunity to meet Mr. Paterson. It shows the benefits of that body and provides an opportunity not just for Government members but also members of the Opposition on both sides of the sea to get to know each other and the ideas and philosophies of the various parties. I listened to Mr. Paterson this morning and in wishing him well I note his comments on corporation tax in the North and his interest in and research into the matter. Part of his research led him to conclude that the introduction of the low corporation tax rate in the South has led to tremendous benefits, in terms of inward investment and job creation. I would be very concerned about any moves which may lead to an increase in the level of corporation tax.
Yesterday's draft proposals must be debated with respect to that fact. I heard Deputy Bruton on the radio this morning and I am not quite sure if the draft document goes as far as he suggested. He suggested it would lead to the Government ceding authority on the issue to other European countries. I do not think it goes that far but we need to have a debate on the matter because it is clear that the reaction to the proposal, not just here but elsewhere, such as in France where its Government is concerned about the proposal, means we need a debate.
I would like to see such debate widened to include the issue of the euro because when it was introduced it was a unique experiment to create a major currency for hundreds of millions of people, akin to the United States dollar. The eurozone is very different from the United States, which has flexible, integrated labour markets and one common language. People in Texas and California see themselves as American, and not Texan or Californian, first. That is clearly not the case here. I would welcome a debate on the euro and how we can deepen the level of integration across the eurozone countries to make sure the currency works better.
Senator O'Toole is correct is saying that questions need to be asked about the draft discussion document and it is important that such a debate is held before final decisions are reached in this area. However, I do not think the question should be posed in the form of scaremongering. It is unfortunate that the type of questioning which has been posed in the other House and in our national media over the last number of days has coincided with the arrival of a Conservative Party led Government in Britain which is likely to be quite Eurosceptic in tone and would not differ very much from what has been said in that quarter on the euro.
It is obvious that the discussion document is a response to events in Greece. We have a common currency which is unlike any other, in that there are 27 different economies, all running at different levels of development, and there is a need for a level of co-ordination which has not existed thus far which has brought us to a situation whereby we have to respond to one member state in a crisis mode. It would be more responsible for other political parties to ask the wider questions as to how we can deal with a common currency in the future.
I do not believe the discussion document says anything like what has been portrayed so far. It does not refer to line item vetoes or what taxes should be raised, to what amount and at what rates. It refers to having a common approach to budgetary matters, something which Senator O'Toole has already pointed out exists in the Maastricht treaty, in terms of the convergence criteria, the 3% budget deficit and the 60% debt ratio. Article 136 of the Lisbon treaty, which Fine Gael was very enthusiastic about campaigning for a short number of months ago, also refers to this.
I ask for a degree of level headedness and an absence of naked political point scoring on this issue, at a time when we are likely to see a number of other economic indicators which are giving fresh hope that we are starting to go in the right direction. We should examine those figures in the context of the economy and how, as a member of the European Union and the eurozone, we can meet the challenges together.
I want to bring the focus back to the trouble which many ordinary citizens are experiencing, that is, indebtedness. We are almost reaching crisis levels with regard to personal debt, be it credit cards or credit in general, and mortgage debt — in many cases people are in negative equity. Small businesses are also suffering serious problems with regard to cashflow and overdrafts, which are not being secured from banking institutions. Our State debt is one of the biggest concerns of all. We need to have a debate on the issue of indebtedness.
I do not expect the State to pay back debts but we should examine all types of mechanisms and assistance for our citizens. We should even consider the very basic assistance offered through MABS offices around the country which are overburdened with people seeking help. Resources such as that would assist people. We should discuss how our banking system is responding to the crisis and the mechanisms it is using. I ask the Leader to make provision for a debate on indebtedness in this country, the sooner the better.
One of the knock-on effects of the crisis is the impact it has on social welfare offices around the country. People who have no incomes, having lost their jobs, urgently need assistance but must wait months to meet social welfare officers and receive a response from them. That is totally unacceptable. Staff in the Department of Social Protection are overburdened with work and crying out for resources, but owing to the embargo they are not getting them. The Government must look at its priorities in terms of how it is responding to the crisis and provide resources where they are so badly needed, namely, on the front line, to assist families which are seriously stressed. In the past week alone I dealt with five queries, in respect of which, unfortunately, one man died by suicide, two more people attempted to commit suicide, while one person is threatening to do so. This saddens me as a public representative. As politicians, we need to engage and provide resources where they are needed, namely, on the front line, because people face a crisis and need our help.
I welcome the support of Senator Quinn yesterday and Senator O'Toole today and the comments made in the Lower House about the tribunal, an issue on which I seek a debate. Members have an obligation to download judgments from the Supreme Court website, in particular, Mr. Justice Hardiman's judgment which states the proceedings of the appellants — the Murphy family — are directed exclusively on the costs order. As will be seen, certain of the points urged by the appellants would, if upheld, appear to have implications for the substantive findings of the tribunal, in terms of its power to grant or refuse costs, and that the current proceedings focus exclusively on the cost issues. Clearly, other implications have been flagged in this regard. Earlier in the judgment Mr. Justice Hardiman states: "These tribunals, as this one amply illustrates, have become immense in their duration and, consequently, in their costs ... I am unaware of any international comparator, even amongst States much richer than Ireland, whose public inquiries approach ours for length, complexity or expense, or who exhibit such readiness to have recourse to a tribunal."
In the Lower House the leaders of the two main parties and Deputy Lowry outlined their positions. I am alarmed by information received under the Freedom of Information Act which Deputy Lowry gave in the Lower House that the cost——
I do not want to know what happened in the Lower House. The Senator is making a valid point to the Leader on why he should have a debate.
It appears costs have been claimed for six days of the week, 52 weeks of the year. The tribunal must clarify if that is correct or incorrect. If it is correct, it must give an explanation. If it fails to receive that explanation, there will be an onus on this House to institute whatever appropriate investigative procedures are necessary to establish what is happening in the calculation of costs. This potentially impacts on the credibility of tribunals and both Houses. I call for an urgent debate on the matter.
The tribunal is the equivalent of the court.
May we have a debate on how we can maximise the resources available? I was at the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham last night for the O2 ability awards ceremony, an event which was really inspiring, at which people who had overcome difficulties were recognised. Companies benefit because of their immense loyalty and the immense energy and drive they bring to them. The awards scheme was founded by a remarkable woman, Caroline Casey. I am proud to sit in the Seanad beside Senator Quinn who received one of the major awards for the work he had done. As I listened to the description, I knew within two sentences that it was Senator Quinn who was being spoken about. The former President and a former Member of this House, Mrs. Mary Robinson, made a remarkable brief speech. She said that even in these difficult times there continued to be an undercurrent of positive thinking and talent. In other words, she was accentuating the positive. This idea is being exported to other European countries and, possibly, others in South America. This is something of which we can be deeply proud and we can be particularly proud that a Member of this House was so honoured last night.
I agree with my colleagues that we need a debate on the way we handle certain currency movements and the issue of cohesion in Europe. As I said the other day, historically, this is an inevitable process. It happened in the 19th century with the small German states. It started off as a Zollverein, a customs union with tax implications. It was purely economic but gradually led to the creation of the state of Germany. I would welcome this if it resulted in a positive union and something strong, strong enough, for example, to take on the ratings agencies on a global basis. I call for a debate on the ratings agencies because there is all-party support for an attempt to understand what they are doing and root out their evil practices. Sometimes in these difficult areas it is useful to find a poacher and turn him or her into a gamekeeper. Perhaps when we look at the ratings agencies and the malign influence they exert, we might contact somebody such as George Soros who most certainly was a poacher but who gambled disastrously against some of the major currencies. He knows how it is done and if we were to turn him on the ratings agencies, there would be fireworks.
I note the burial of Mrs. Erskine Childers is taking place today and send the sympathy of the House to her daughter who is currently an MEP.
I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to raise the matter of the free legal aid scheme on the Adjournment last night and uncover facts such as that the number of solicitors participating in the scheme had increased by 12% in 2009, that the payments to solicitors involved in District Court interventions had increased by 40% between 2005 and 2009 and that expenditure had increased from €40 million to €60 million in a very short period. When will the promised legislation be brought before the House because the Minister for Defence shared my concerns about a number of aspects of the scheme?
When will the legislation to ban the use of sunbeds by under 18 years olds be brought before the House? Such legislation has already been introduced in the North. The issue is regularly raised on the Adjournment.
I welcome the appointment of Mr. Owen Paterson as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whom I have met. I have often said it will be a better day when we do not have a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Mr. Paterson had many aspirations and good ideas in his manifesto. However, this morning he seemed to back-pedal in terms of what could be done. I suggest he proceed with caution. The North is highly dependent on state funds. Allowing freedom in tax matters might be the best thing to do, but he did not outline the other side of the coin that it would be linked with the removal of most of the block grant to the North. There are major issues for him to consider. It is important we be involved in working through the agenda, that we achieve progress and that the peace process continue.
I join Senator Twomey in calling for a debate on the realignment of hospital accident and emergency services. Such a debate was called for earlier this week and last week. Reports have been compiled in a number of regions on how services, including maternity and accident and emergency services, should be realigned. For some reason, however, these reports have not been published, even though they were to be published by now. There is much concern in hospitals that they will lose some of these vital services. We should, therefore, have a full discussion as soon as possible to ascertain the HSE's thinking on the issue. This is an example of where the Government has transferred powers to an undemocratic institution. There is no transparency on how it reaches decisions. The Leader faces similar issues in his region.
I also join Senator Twomey in requesting an urgent debate on the proposal that the budget be subjected to scrutiny by EU authorities before its adoption in the Dáil. In recent months Germany has pumped a lot of money into other European economies. As such, I understand why it wants to see certain safeguards being put in place, but I am surprised at the attitude of the Government which seems to be ready to cede this power immediately. I did not expect to see Fianna Fáil do this. I do not want to be patronised by Senator Boyle about what is contained in the Lisbon treaty because what is being proposed goes far beyond what is contained in the article of the treaty to which he referred. There is a strong chance that what is being proposed will not be agreed to.
This is another example of the Government failing to have a full and frank exchange of views in either House. This has been the case with the Greek bailout and the safety net for the eurozone and something similar is being spoken about regarding EU scrutiny of the budget. Perhaps if budgets were fully scrutinised in both Houses before being adopted, we would not need European Union intervention in the matter.
I support Senator Keaveney's request to the Leader to extend the sympathies of the House to Nessa Childers, MEP, on the death of Mrs. Rita Childers, the widow of the late President, Mr. Erskine Childers.
I ask the Leader, in light of Senator Walsh's contribution, when the House will discuss No. 31, motion 4 in the name of numerous Senators, including me, which addresses the serious issue of the fees charged by barristers in this difficult time. Senator Walsh has shown courage in raising this issue in the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and the House. I support his campaign because it is incredible that in these times barristers should receive more than €10 million in a certain period.
What is the position regarding No. 19 on the Order Paper, the Opposition legislation, the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members)(Amendment) Bill 2008, which proposes to extend the Seanad list by giving the Local Authority Members Association a right to nominate a candidate on the administrative panel. I believed, prima facie, that LAMA should have the same right as other organisations to nominate candidates. It would be worthwhile to debate this legislation. What is its status?
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Social Protection to come to House to discuss a range of issues. I wish specifically to raise the issue of councillors paying PRSI and a pension levy when they are not entitled to a pension on retirement. I am sure this anomaly is also close to the Cathaoirleach's heart. I ask the Leader to arrange a discussion with the Minister.
I am not involved in that aspect of the issue.
I understand that.
I am struck by the debate taking place on the euro. I spent the past four days in Paris participating in a programme organised by the French Government under which members of various parliaments seek to understand developments in other countries and various views on the euro. On Monday, I spent some time with individuals who were involved in discussions over the weekend on how to handle the situation in Greece and possible future developments.
In the past three years, I have repeatedly argued in the House that the national question is no longer the relationship between the South and North but how a small, open and profoundly globalised economy such as this handles its relationship with Europe. Three points must be made in the current debate. First, the issue of economic government as opposed to economic governance has entered the European debate again. There is a major difference between these two concepts and we must acknowledge the powerful voices raising the issue of economic government. The issue should be discussed in the Oireachtas.
Second, if the observations made by the European Commission on Ireland's budgets in 2003, 2004 and 2005 had been listened to and acted upon, we would not be experiencing the current degree of difficulty. The Commission's observations have proven to be correct.
The third point, which is one that will inflame Irish people, is that a proposal is afoot to extend greater powers of surveillance to the European Union than those currently enjoyed by Members of the Oireachtas. This is a key Commission proposal. The imbalance needs to be rectified.
None of my repeated calls for a debate on the future evolution of the euro has been acceded to. In the past two or three weeks my party has called for a discussion of the issue and none has taken place. If we do not create a space for a calm and constructive debate on the issue, it is inevitable that sharper voices will be heard.
Senator Walsh raised important issues regarding tribunals. While the Senator appears at times to be a voice in the wilderness, he expresses a concern that is widely held in the public domain. While I understand the Houses must show sensitivity in this regard given that the Oireachtas established the tribunals, nevertheless we must at some point draw a line and query matters arising from the tribunals, especially their costs. I ask the Leader to consult the Government and consider holding a debate on the tribunals. The House would better serve the national interest if it debated this issue rather than depending on the media which, in this case, are doing an exceptionally good job. We would also give leadership in terms of public concern about the tribunals.
Senators should not allow themselves to be overawed or constrained in matters of this nature because, in the months and years ahead, our silence on such an important issue will be scrutinised. For this reason, I commend Senator Walsh's courage in raising his head above the parapet and addressing the issue of the tribunals. It behoves us all to think deeply about his proposal. It is not a knee-jerk reaction as the Senator has researched this issue keenly and deeply. It would be appropriate of the House, therefore, to consider having a debate on the tribunals, particularly their costs, in the near future.
I ask the Leader to consider having a debate on moving on. By this I mean that there is an ideological division in the country which has become clear to those of us who work in newspapers. On the one hand, one has those who want to continue fomenting anger and looking back, while at the same time trying to move forward. They give one a dialectic in that they want to move back and forward at the same time. Some of us who work in the media have detected a very serious structural shift among the public. The RTE media whinge nexus is misreading public opinion and newspaper sales will prove who is right about this.
Fine Gael and the Labour Party should take stock of these shifts in public mood. I woke up this morning to hear an after-image of euroscepticism around Fine Gael, the party I would have thought owns the European project. I do not like after-images like that and do not care what were the details of the debate — the trees so-called — because the wood is what matters. The after-image left behind in the public is that there is some kind of problem between Fine Gael and Europe.
A few weeks ago the after-image left behind in the public was that there was some problem between the Fine Gael Party shadow spokesman on justice and the Garda Representative Association when the former was ambivalent about an issue. We then had an affray in the Dáil yesterday and two voices were heard in this House. Senator Donohoe has been very solid in saying: "We stand by law and order and do not stand over this GRA gurrier stuff". Other Fine Gael voices have also been solid, including Senator Joe O'Reilly yesterday who stated his party did not stand over the affray. I wish Fine Gael would start speaking with one voice. If it is to take over the Government of this country, it should not dig holes for itself, as it is doing by being ambivalent on euroscepticism, anarchy in the Garda and this, that and the other. Let it get a grip and start behaving like a Government party.
The Senator offers good advice.
I concur with Senator Harris. As usual, he has got the temperature right. I also welcome the support shown for the euro. When the eurozone was introduced some 11 years ago, a mechanism was not established to support the euro as a currency. I am delighted they have seen fit to ensure we have a stabilisation plan for the euro when it is attacked outside the eurozone. That is to be welcomed. Negotiations have to be structured around the situation. I accept the importance of Opposition spokespersons highlighting this, but it is not acceptable for them to put misinformation out there. Negotiations are taking place to have a structure within the eurozone on budgetary matters. This is important because I do not think anybody adhered to the 3% structures, so it is time that some structure was put on budgetary matters in the eurozone. I welcome that and the debate will continue.
Results for the last quarter mean we are out of recession. Over 2,000 jobs have been created in the last quarter and are in the pipeline for implementation. Davy Stockbrokers, which does not have an axe to grind with anybody, has announced that we will see 1% growth in this quarter. That is to be welcomed and that is my good news for this quarter. I hope it continues.
I would like a debate on our vision for public transport in this country, and how it dovetails with our national spatial strategy, which is in urgent need of radical re-assessment. We have learned in the past few weeks that if credible and convenient public transport alternatives are provided, the people will change the habits of a lifetime. A statement yesterday on the Dublin bikes scheme claimed that there have been 500,000 journeys made under the scheme, which is six times the rate of use in any other city where the scheme is in existence, such as Vienna, Lyon, Paris, Seville and Brussels. It was predicted that we would have 1,500 users in the first year, but we now have 30,000 users.
The opening of the western rail corridor has also proved the point that when people are provided with a credible public transport alternative, they will avail of it. That service is now predicted to carry almost 400,000 people in its first year of operation. Iarnród Éireann is now conceding that this will work and a recent company statement claimed it was clear that the support from the community for the re-opening of the line is translating into real passenger demand. I remember the phrase from that 1980s Kevin Costner movie, "The Field of Dreams", "If you build it, they will come". It seems that people will change the habits of a lifetime.
If we are genuine about proper spatial strategy and regional development, we need to reassess urgently how we will address the out of control population growth on the eastern seaboard, and begin to offer people an effective counterpoint on the western seaboard. In doing so, we need to look at the remaining length of track north of the western rail corridor, perhaps up to Derry in cross-Border co-operation. We need to provide a western rail corridor from Derry to Limerick, with a spur to Shannon Airport. We urgently need to underpin the development of Shannon, because if we do not do so, it is in danger of dying.
I would like to have this debate on public transport fairly quickly, and I am sure my Green Party colleagues would support my call.
I share the call for a debate on transport, and I strongly support the need for an enhanced rail network system. The work to date has been very positive. There is a need to extend the spur to Shannon Airport, as it largely serves the American continent. We also need to look at sending a spur from Sligo to Derry. As we head for 2020 and an island population of 8 million people, it will become more apparent that this will not only be socially necessary, but economically viable, and it will be well worth debating here. There was a rail line there before, but it was taken up at a time when transport modes were seen to have changed. We now see that this was a major mistake. Notwithstanding that, there is a possibility for a rail line and it should be provided.
I would like a debate specifically on the difficulties that are still occurring in regulation of the financial markets. The difficulties in the financial sector have been compounded by the current difficulties with Greek bond debt, especially since the financial markets bet against the Greek economy. It was outrageous that €15 billion was spent at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange to bring down an economy and gain profits. Surely it is time to regulate against this. People are severely hurt when an economy collapses while others look for profit at the other end of the scale.
Suggestions that were made for Europe on this issue could not impinge on what we voted for in the Lisbon referendum. We voted in that referendum to keep our financial sovereignty, and the suggestions that came from Europe had nothing to do with lessening our financial sovereignty. I suggest it had more to do with the fact that some nations joined the euro but would not have been allowed entry had the full facts been known.
I would like to add my voice to the long time lone voice of Senator Walsh on the issue of tribunals. There is little doubt that there is a serious need for debate on these tribunals. There have been concerns about the fairness, cost and inefficiency of them, so I agree with the need for a debate.
Senator Butler made a point about good news. There is a danger we will talk ourselves into a bigger recession by always focusing on the bad news. There is much good news out there, so let us make sure that we use it. Last night's O2 Ability Awards was a reminder of how many companies are doing well by focusing on people’s other abilities. They do not use the word “disability” at all; instead they use the word “ability”. Right around the country, there are many companies and public bodies that are using this as an opportunity to do a better job.
I believe the Chinese word for "crisis" is the same as the word for "opportunity". We have a crisis, but we also have opportunities. We hear today that we will need 1,000 extra teachers. Where will we get the money for those teachers? Let us make sure we get them. The chief executive of Hewlett Packard was interviewed on radio at the announcement of 60 new jobs in Leixlip about one month ago, and he said there would be a requirement for these people to have a second language. The reporter then said that no Irish need therefore apply. Eight per cent of Irish students have a second language, compared to 60% in the rest of Europe. That is an opportunity for us. We must invest in literacy, but we must also invest in other languages. This requires us to put our heart and soul behind that.
We were fortunate enough in our family to send our five children for one school term abroad before they were 14. We were told that if a language is learned before the age of 14, it can be spoken without an accent. Our two daughters fell in love at the age of 14 with Frenchmen, and are now married to Frenchmen.
That is going too far.
We should recognise the opportunity we have to get things done, especially in respect of languages.
We cannot expect bailouts from Brussels of the scale that has just happened — €750 billion in the last week — without playing our part in co-operating in the co-ordination of budgetary policy. The NTMA could not go into the market to borrow in the last number of weeks because of what had happened in the financial markets. The support we have received from the ECB over the last two years has kept our banks afloat. We can now go back into the market because of that bailout, so I welcome stronger surveillance and co-operation by the European Commission and other member states on budgetary policy.
Senator Harris is right. The European Union is a Fine Gael project. Fine Gael is sound on Europe and supports European integration. That means it is best placed to ask questions. We do not need to unreservedly swallow whatever comes from Brussels. A French Government spokesperson said parliament remained sovereign when it came to budgetary and fiscal decisions, but that it also supported the idea of better co-ordination in fiscal and budgetary matters. That is what is provided for in the treaty. There are procedures in place to penalise member states with excessive budgetary deficits. This is very important and to be welcomed. It would have been very interesting if other member states and the European Commission had reviewed some of our budget proposals on benchmarking and decentralisation. When we see what the European Union has done in correcting the worst features of the NAMA project in its decision in February, we can see the benefits of European Union intervention in and surveillance of economic and budgetary policy here.
Is this different from Monsieur Bruton?
No interruptions, please.
On behalf of the Green Party, I wish the new Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Paterson, MP, the very best in his new role. He will have a particularly tricky task at a time when the deficit in the United Kingdom is about to be addressed. We understand details will be announced within 50 days of the formation of the new government. It seems inevitable that the block grant will be reviewed, despite what the parties in the North are stating. The Northern economy is extremely dependent on the public sector which will obviously be vulnerable to potential cuts in UK public spending. It will be a tricky time for the Northern economy and have consequences for how we manage our affairs with the economy on the other side of the Border.
Whenever small businesses begin to feel pressure, there is talk of shared services and ways in which tasks can be done in a common way. We have had talk this morning about cross-Border transport initiatives. I also see this as an opportunity to have shared services — to borrow that phrase — in health service provision and possibly even the education system. I see, as Senator Quinn said, the potential crisis in the public finances in the North because of the overall UK deficit as an opportunity for the two economies in the two key service areas of health and education to come closer to each other, particularly along the Border. I have given a great deal of thought to the matter and hope these opportunities will present themselves.
On Tuesday I said the Lisbon treaty was abundantly clear on the issue of our fiscal independence, any erosion of which would require a further treaty. I found it unfortunate, notwithstanding the contributions of Fine Gael Members this morning, that their leader had struck a tone yesterday that suggested our fiscal independence was in imminent danger. This did nothing to help the discussion. However, I found Senator Donohoe's contribution this morning very helpful and interesting and would like to hear more from him. I accept Fine Gael is in a position to ask these questions, as Senator Regan said, but it should be done in a much more level-headed way.
I support the call for a debate on a turn around or metanoia, to use a phrase I dredge up from my catechetical days.
I add my voice to the calls for a debate on the tribunals. I find it nauseating to hear Members opposite questioning the tribunals. If I am wrong, the Leader can correct me, but is it not the Government which sets the fees and the Minister for Finance on behalf of the Government who agrees to them? Therefore, the Government has the power to set the fees, to increase and decrease them. I accept that it has decreased them. However, it is nauseating to listen to Members opposite, given that in some cases members of their party caused the tribunals to be further delayed. It is important for the tribunal concerned to answer the question of how it can claim for six days of the week, 52 weeks of the year. All of us on this side of the House agree that the tribunals have gone on for far too long, something which needs to be changed.
Senator Harris spoke about public opinion and the need for people to stop reflecting on what happened in the past. As someone who refers to history repeatedly in the House, he should know that we should learn from mistakes made in order that we can avoid repeating them in the future. As somebody who knocks on doors four nights a week, I can tell the Senator that the people are angry. Many of them would love to see punditry being removed from our newspapers and television screens because it serves no purpose in our society.
The Senator should ask questions of the Leader.
As the pro-Europe party, Fine Gael is best placed to protect the national interest. At a time of economic crisis both here and worldwide, it is important that we do not further weaken our national democratic institutions, as Fianna Fáil has done. Senator Donohoe raised the new national question, the relationship with the European Union, to which we should return in a further debate.
I find the debate about European Union co-ordination of our economic policies fascinating. Article 136 of the treaty envisages greater co-ordination. Will it be compulsory? Will there be penalties if individual member states in the eurozone wander off the reservation, so to speak? The co-ordination of budgetary policies comes down to two issues, that of the tax take and the way it is spent. Presumably, there will be a limitation on the way money is spent. It is legitimate for Deputy Bruton to ask whether there will also be interference with the way tax revenue is raised. It is not fair to descend to accusing people of being Eurosceptics simply because they ask this very necessary question. Our corporation tax rate is a very live issue of concern to many. We should be debating whether Deputy Bruton is right, rather than seeking to accuse people of being Eurosceptics simply because they raise questions that might be legitimate. It has been said that in 1973 the Constitution arguably gave much greater power to European treaties. It was the Labour Party which expressed most concern about this at the time and it is a debate we need to have.
I commend Senator Walsh on the issue of the tribunals. I know you have concerns about Members commenting on court decisions, a Chathaoirligh, but I respectfully say the concept of the separation of powers does not mean we cannot comment on Supreme Court decisions and certainly does not mean we cannot comment on the tribunals, on which we need to have a debate. There are two issues involved — how the tribunals have been conducted based on the recent judgment of Mr. Justice Hardiman, in particular, and costs. Who is auditing the cost and expenses sheets? Senator Buttimer has said the Government sets the fees, but it does not complete the claim forms. We need an examination of that issue. Senator Walsh is to be commended, as it is certainly within the remit of the House to ask the hard questionspublicly.
I consider myself to be an optimistic person. I commend RTE on highlighting the plight and agony of our young mortgagees. The programme on Sunday night showed people in County Longford who were in an appalling situation in being in negative equity and lumbered with having to repay mortgages while living on a derelict site. I concur with Senator Coffey in asking for a debate on indebtedness to establish how we can bail out these young people who represent the future of the country and will provide for the next generation. As public representatives, it is incumbent on us to look after them.
It was sickening to read Mr. Michael Brennan's article on what had happened at the AGM of Irish Nationwide Building Society, at which Mr. Daniel Kitchen mentioned the society might need more money, even though we had already bailed it out to the tune of €2.7 billion. There are poor unfortunate people living with raw sewage coming up in their estates which also have unfinished roads and no electric light. Meanwhile we must bail out Irish Nationwide once again although the former chairman has not yet paid back the money he promised. I call on the Leader for an urgent debate on indebtedness so that we can find ways to bail out our young people.
I join Senators Keaveney and Leyden in passing condolences to Nessa Childers, MEP, on the recent death of her mother, Rita Childers, whom I knew very well. The former President and Minister, the late Erskine Childers, served as a Deputy for both Longford-Westmeath and Cavan-Monaghan. Mrs Childers has passed on to her eternal reward and we remember her at this time.
Concerning the debate on the health portfolio and the operations of the HSE, my intention is to have the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, and the Ministers of State, Deputies John Moloney and Áine Brady, present for an all-day session. It was not possible to arrange this for next Wednesday, as I informed the House yesterday, but I have confirmed agreement with all three Ministers that the debate will take place on Wednesday, 2 June. We probably will be more aware then of the outcome of concerns expressed by Senators on all sides of the House regarding the health portfolio. There will be no time limit on contributions from colleagues during the all-day debate.
Senators Twomey, O'Toole, Hannigan, John Paul Phelan, Boyle, Donohoe, Harris, Buttimer, Regan, Dearey and Mullen all expressed their strong views on the decision on the drafting of budgets of EU member nations and how the EU will keep an eye on this, in particular in regard to guidelines. All will have to toe the line and live within the spirit of the financial difficulties. As Senator O'Toole noted correctly, if we were not now members of the EU currency it is possible that we would be paying three or four times more for the interest rates on our mortgages and loans than we pay at present. I listened to the views of all colleagues in the House and have no difficulty in our having a debate to discuss and monitor this decision and the situation. I remind the House, in the interests of clarity and fairness, that it was Seán Lemass's dream that we join the EU and he wrote our first letter of application. It was Jack Lynch, then Taoiseach, and Dr. Patrick Hillery, former President and Minister, who signed us as members in 1973. I state this for the House. It was a vision of Lemass that has us in Europe today. How right he was.
Senators O'Toole, Walsh, Leyden, Ó Murchú, Quinn and Buttimer called again for the House to discuss the serious issues highlighted in the Supreme Court judgments regarding matters raised by Senator Walsh for the consideration of the House. No. 31, motion 4 on the Order Paper states: "That Seanad Éireann, in the light of the exorbitant fees being charged by Senior and Junior Counsel, calls on the Government to introduce [maximum fees]" and goes on to highlight the fees paid in tribunals. I have said that I want to arrive at an all-party motion whereupon we will have open-ended statements from those Members who wish to express their views. I invite all Members of the Seanad to look at the relevant Supreme Court judgments over the weekend and next Tuesday I shall give a date for this issue to be discussed in the House. It is our responsibility and duty. Under no circumstances can we stand idly by and allow the views of the eminent Supreme Court judges go unheeded.
Has the Government any plans to reduce the fees?
No interruptions.
I asked a question.
The Leader is replying to the Order of Business. Let there be no interruptions.
The Government can reduce the fees.
There is nothing as bad as a person who leaves a family, goes to another family and then starts to charge again for the first family. It is appalling.
Answer the question.
I am answering——
The Government can set the fees.
I have been so patient——
No interruptions.
I even amaze myself at times at how patient I have been.
The Leader is replying to questions raised on the Order of Business and that is that.
On a point of order, I asked the Leader a specific question.
Please. The Leader is replying and I do not want anyone to interrupt him. He has not completed his reply.
I asked the Leader a specific question.
Senators Keaveney, Hannigan and Dearey congratulated Mr. Owen Paterson on his appointment as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and I agree fully with the sentiment. Members of this House are full members of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly which helps us no end. I look forward to working with Mr. Paterson in the coming years and wish him all good luck in regard to the serious challenges that his Government must face now, challenges we have been facing up to as a nation for the past 18 months.
Senator Norris congratulated Senator Feargal Quinn on his O2 ability award and I wish to be associated with that. It is a proud day for the Senator and his family and for Seanad Éireann that his achievements are so recognised. I have always sung the Senator’s praises in this House for the many thousands of jobs he and his family have created in their lifework and endeavour.
Senator Coffey called for a debate on the challenges facing small and medium-sized businesses and the difficulties being experienced by those who have mortgages and loans and are finding it difficult to make their repayments. As Senators know, next week the House will debate the Bill on the financial matters of Greece and we could take the other matter then. I promised the House that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, would be present to discuss his new portfolio regarding the challenges currently facing the country.
I welcome the announcement of the extra number of jobs in recent days, about which Senator Butler informed the House today. These include e-Bay, which offered 150 jobs, IBM, 200, Warner, 200, Hertz, 100, Network Paypal, 100, and Abtran in Cork offered 300 jobs. I am sure Senator Buttimer is delighted to hear that. Pro-Tech in Dundalk promised 70 jobs. These all come at a very difficult time and I congratulate IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland which worked hard to bring them about. I thank Senator Butler for updating me today with this information regarding the challenges that faced these two bodies. We must spread the good news. It is our duty to let the people know the positive things that are happening.
Senator Norris called for a debate on the ratings agencies. I already gave a commitment this will take place.
Senator Leyden spoke about local government members and their concerns regarding councillors having to pay PRSI and the pension levy when no social welfare entitlements or pensions are available to them. We will pass on this issue to the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Ó Cuív, for his views and it will return to the House later. There are very many issues concerning councillors at present. They want to improve their position because they are making an immeasurable contribution, as they always have done over many years. We need only look to see the great work done by council and local authority members, on VEC boards and, in particular, on health boards, and the openness and transparency that existed over generations. Very many colleagues in the House were members of health boards and their families before them made an immeasurable contribution in this regard.
Senator Leyden mentioned No. 19 on the Order Paper, a Bill to amend the Seanad electoral panel membership. I shall discuss this with the Clerk of the Seanad after the Order of Business and update the House on the matter at a later date. There is no doubt that colleagues will keenly await the response.
Senator Harris spoke about moving on and leading our people. It is a sensible call to the House regarding Ireland and its future, and we should encourage colleagues not to look back in this very special debate. We have been a leader in the world in our success and achievements, particularly over the past 15 years.
Senator Butler informed the House of the figures and potential for growth in the next six months of 1%. If everything keeps going as it is, next year it is possible we could have a growth rate of up to 3%, which would be double the EU average. I hope everything stays on track and that everything possible is being done to meet the challenge. I welcome those figures from Senator Butler.
Senators Cannon and Hanafin spoke on the vision for public transport and called for a debate on it. The Dublin bicycle scheme has been an outstanding success and many young people are using it on a daily and even hourly basis.
Has the Leader tried it?
They are far more efficient in their work etc. because of that. It is a good initiative and it could possibly be a great success in Cork as well as other cities where travelling in traffic takes a little longer.
There are too many hills in Cork.
The western rail corridor will have 400,000 people using it and the Government can feel very proud of its achievements. Yesterday I welcomed the €500,000 for Dublin metro from the EU and I agree with Senator Hanafin on the need to extend the spur to Shannon and the Sligo to Derry line. It would be a fantastic achievement as that part of the country needs such a service. I am fully supportive of that happening.
Senator Hanafin also spoke on the regulation of financial markets and outlined to the House the casino-style gamble in the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. We can only imagine betting €15 billion in the current global downturn. How irresponsible are these people, who are not prepared to play their part in helping mankind but would rather make money on the backs of the unfortunate circumstances in which the people of Greece find themselves? I have no difficulty in having time left aside to debate the matter.
Senator Quinn welcomed the announcement from the Department of Education and Skills — I know the Minister and Government are behind it — for 1,000 extra teaching posts. That is very welcome because looking back over the past 50 years, the transformation in Ireland came from the education and knowledge of our young people and the current generations. I fully support the Senator's comments on the 60 jobs for Hewlett Packard and the advice of the company's chief executive that people should have a second or third language. I will bring this to the attention of the Minister after the Order of Business.
Senator McFadden spoke about the plight of those in difficulty, particularly in her own constituency covering Longford and Westmeath. We will do anything we can to help them in their plight. A debate on the Croke Park agreement will take place immediately after the Order of Business and the Minister will be present to discuss the difficulties people are experiencing. There will be an all-day debate on the financial issues relating to the EU and Greece next Thursday, and colleagues may highlight many of the relevant concerns with the Minister present in order to get a response. I will allow some time at the end of the debate for the Minister to respond to questions. There will also be discussion on the relevant Bill.
Order of Business agreed to.