Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Jun 2010

Vol. 203 No. 7

Order of Business (Resumed)

Senator Mark Dearey

I thank the Leader for arranging for the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to come in yesterday to debate the health issues of the day in the House. It was a useful hour with her. Unfortunately, the debate had to be curtailed and I understand she is due back in — I wonder could he confirm when — to conclude that debate. When communicating with her, he might ask if she could make a statement on the recruitment crisis of non-consultant hospital doctors. The first of July is fast approaching and the problems around recruitment are impinging markedly on services in smaller hospitals, in particular, as services must be consolidated into larger ones. The services in County Louth have hit the headlines but there are hospitals around the country where the lack of anaesthetists, etc. is threatening the provision of acute services post 1 July. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister to do all in her power to ensure that such recruitment process is completed satisfactorily before 1 July. I understand there are longer-term issues around recruitment that we need to address to make smaller hospitals attractive again to non-consultant hospital doctors, but that is a wider debate. For now, I would be satisfied if we can deal with this problem before 1 July.

I also welcome the partial lifting of the blockade on Gaza. I was struck by Mr. Richard Crowley's reports, where he identified the key gain for the people of Palestine through the flotilla was the restoration of some hope. His expressed desire was that such hope be built on and not be dashed. There are small flickers of hope in what Israel has decided to do, notwithstanding the fact that the blockade remains illegal and that Irish people were taken into detention and deported, brought to Israel against their will, etc. There are still many outstanding issues, but I welcome the partial lifting. I hope it is seen as a confidence building measure and a step towards even proximity talks happening again.

Senator Joe O’Reilly

When one thinks of the pain the people experienced when €4 billion was taken out of the economy in terms of income reduction and services, etc. and that we threw €22 billion into Anglo Irish Bank, five times that amount, it necessitates a full debate in this House on the terms of reference of the banking commission and also on Anglo Irish Bank. Senator O'Toole was correct when he stated we need the headline figures. We need to know exactly. It is a shocking reflection on the way the House works that we had not already had this debate at the outset, with the figures and with the position presented as to why a particular line was taken.

I fully agree with Senator Coffey on the globalisation fund. I raised on the Adjournment a few weeks ago that we should be accessing the globalisation fund for those who are made redundant but, more importantly, in parallel, we should be trying to introduce a job creation and stimulus package. In this regard, the green energy sector offers considerable potential, particularly in terms of exporting energy supplies. It is a shocking reflection on the Government that, three years into its lifetime, it has put no credible jobs plan before the House. We should have been debating such a plan from it a couple of years ago. My party, in its NewEra policy document, has made a contribution to the jobs debate, but there has been no response. It is sad that unemployed people are watching us on "Oireachtas Report" and that we are not discussing the issue of job creation in a practical way.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Senator John Ellis

I congratulate the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Ó Cuív, for his actions in allowing miners who have serious health problems to be treated under the occupational injuries fund. I do not doubt that the families of those involved will appreciate that something has at last been done to deal with the matter.

Will the Leader consider arranging a debate on transport infrastructure before the summer recess? Our motorways have almost been completed and there is a need to ensure ongoing investment in the upgrading of our roads infrastructure. Certain sections of our major inter-urban routes need to be upgraded. I do not want to see a situation where no progress is being made in that regard. Work on the Mullingar-Dromid section of the N4 which was to have been the next major project should be pushed along. If we are to have proper regional development, providing a proper road infrastructure is imperative. The project mentioned would help to improve the infrastructure leading to the west and north west. It is imperative, therefore, that we debate the matter as soon as possible.

Senator Nicky McFadden

Hear, hear.

Senator Feargal Quinn

I support the call for a debate on job creation. However, it is not the task of the Government to create jobs. Senator Harris referred to a Government stimulus package to encourage job creation. That is what we should be discussing. The Senator also referred to small and medium-sized businesses. Future Print, a printing factory in Baldoyle, announced yesterday that it was going to close. It was started by a 17 year old in a shed in Finglas 40 years ago and now employs 110 people. We need a stimulus job creation package from the Government. Jobs will not be created by a Government which states it wants to create them. Rather, a stimulus package would allow others to create them.

Although we had a debate on banking only two days ago, it seems unusual——

Senator Donie Cassidy

Last Tuesday.

Senator Feargal Quinn

Yes, it seems unusual to call for another. Senator Boyle mentioned how those of us present at yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service saw the figures. If we have a debate, we should ban discussing what happened in the past. We should be discussing what is to happen in the future.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin

Hear, hear.

Senator Feargal Quinn

Professor Honohan is unsure whether we need a commission of investigation to examine what happened in the past. We should ask him to propose legislation that we could debate, as I am concerned that a talking shop will develop. In some talking shops people can go on and on about what happened in the past. Let us talk about what is to happen in the future. In that regard, we should consider the figures we received from Anglo Irish Bank yesterday. It was an interesting debate and re-reading it would be worthwhile. Anglo Irish Bank told us that there were five choices which carried a heavy cost. The bank has come to the conclusion that it would be best to create a good bank and a bad bank. If we were to do this, we would have some chance of getting out. The bank's delegates have thought the matter through and want to move in that direction. I am unsure whether they are right, but the matter would benefit from a Seanad debate on it. As a reminder to the House, when one member of the bank's delegation was asked how much this action would cost, he stated it would be marginal. When pushed, he stated the cost would run to several hundred million euro. The word "marginal" gives us some idea of what we are discussing. We should be debating the issue in the House on a regular basis.

Senator Paul Coghlan

I will be in line with other Senators' requests. While our debates on banking have been important, will the Leader assure the House that we will debate the draft terms of reference for the commission of investigation, not matters we have already discussed? I differ slightly from my good colleague, Senator Quinn. I have not read the report of the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Honohan, fully and will take his advice and that of Dr. Michael Somers on board, but we must examine the fundamentals in what happened in the recent past and what went wrong if we are to be guided in the future. This would be the job of the commission of investigation if we get the draft terms of reference right. Will the Leader assure the House that we will be able to debate the terms fully, not the reports we have already discussed? I hope that, unlike what has sometimes happened in this land, the commission of investigation will be able to achieve the target of reporting after six months and no longer. Doing so would be important. I do not disagree with the other requests made. The Anglo Irish Bank issue is important and I do not doubt that the advice given by its new board which has nothing to do with the people who steered the ship onto the rocks, has weighed the five options correctly, as Senator Quinn indicated. I do not doubt that it has been rational in reaching its decision, but I would not object to a debate on the matter, if one was required.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I welcome the easing of the blockade of Gaza. It is a tragedy that lives were lost in the run-up to this change of policy on the part of the Israeli Government. I am not naive enough to believe everyone in the flotilla was an honest broker, but I believe strongly that peaceful protestors with a human rights agenda deserve the full protection of national and international law. While I welcome this news, I lament the preceding tragedy.

I listened with a wry sense of amusement to various contributions on the statement of the Catholic bishops on the civil partnerships legislation. I was surprised that no one had referred to the four church leaders in Northern Ireland seeking to meet the main banks——

Senator Eoghan Harris

Hear, hear.

Senator Rónán Mullen

——the lending policies of which, the leaders claim, are putting small and medium-sized businesses and their employees at risk. Would Senators Bacik and Norris condemn this as inappropriate interference by church leaders in the running of our banks?

An Cathaoirleach

Please, do not comment. Questions to the Leader, please.

Senator Rónán Mullen

We need a new, more mature system of politics in which people in different areas of civil society are entitled to have their say. The Labour Party and——

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear. That is why I offered to debate the issue with Cardinal Brady. I hope he will take up my invitation, unlike the last couple of times when he did not even reply.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Mullen to continue without interruption.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I have also heard that Senator Norris blew the protestors yesterday a kiss, which was a more appropriate way to deal with objectors——

An Cathaoirleach

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Senator Rónán Mullen

——rather than losing one's head in the Seanad and pretending to be upset when one was not upset at all.

Senator David Norris

On a point of order——

An Cathaoirleach

This carry-on is inappropriate on the Order of Business.

Senator Paudie Coffey

Please, respect the Chair.

Senator David Norris

On a point of order, I request that Senator Mullen withdraw his completely inaccurate statement. That did not occur yesterday.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I will check my sources, but my sources in this House are good.

Senator David Norris

Perhaps the Senator will identify them in the House, unlike the last time when he told a pack of lies.

An Cathaoirleach

I will call the next speaker.

Senator Rónán Mullen

In fairness, I was the one——

An Cathaoirleach

We are taking questions to the Leader on the Order of Business.

Senator Ivana Bacik

What does Senator Mullen's intervention have to do with asking the Leader for a debate on anything?

An Cathaoirleach

I have ruled the matter out of order.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I wonder how many times Senator Bacik did not call for a debate in her interventions.

Senator David Norris

Does Senator Mullen consider this to be a mature, civilised and respectful debate?

An Cathaoirleach

I am calling the next speaker.

Senator Rónán Mullen

Please, may I ask the Leader a question? I am not responsible——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator's time is up.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I am not responsible for not asking the Leader a question. I have been stopped by other speakers.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has been calling for Members to interrupt him. We are taking questions to the Leader. If the Senator has a question, there will be no interruptions, but his time is up.

Senator Rónán Mullen

May I briefly ask the Leader the question I wanted to ask?

An Cathaoirleach

Quickly.

Senator Rónán Mullen

Does he agree that the Labour Party, as a party which, according to one opinion poll, now enjoys the largest portion of public support, would be better served by allowing people to call for a public debate instead of excluding them?

An Cathaoirleach

What is the question?

Senator Rónán Mullen

I ask the Leader for a debate on the issue of freedom of conscience which is relevant to the civil partnerships legislation.

Senator Ivana Bacik

On a point of order——

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senator Mullen is asking a question.

An Cathaoirleach

Labour Party policy is not relevant.

Senator Ivana Bacik

——who is Senator Mullen accusing of——

Senator Rónán Mullen

It is the type of issue that should be debated in the Seanad.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

Senator Ivana Bacik

Who exactly is Senator Mullen suggesting the Labour Party is excluding from any debate?

An Cathaoirleach

No interruptions, please.

Senator David Norris

It is the usual smear.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin

I thought the Fine Gael benches would be the most divided today but it looks like the Independent benches are the most divided.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Stick to the Order of Business.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin

I want to add my voice to the call to the Leader for a debate on jobs. That is an important debate. I take issue with the Fine Gael comments——

An Cathaoirleach

One speaker has the floor. I do not want to hear anyone else. There is a room outside if people want to talk.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin

I agree with the approach taken by Senator Quinn and disagree with the somewhat Stalinist approach purported by the Fine Gael Party, which surprises me. I have seen its NewERA document which seems to be lifted from the Green Party manifesto of previous years. The NewERA document does not contain much that is not also in the Smart Economy document. The Government is putting forward many suggestions on creating the right environment for jobs.

Everybody in the House seems to agree that green energy in particular is a way this country can gain a huge amount of extra wealth, particularly in the more rural parts of the country, but a proposal for renewable energy zones is being developed in Galway along the lines of what Senator Dearey has been involved with in Dundalk, which has been very successful. We must foster new entrepreneurial environments at a community level and if we have renewable energy zones underpinned by work with the local authority and the local agencies, it is a great opportunity not only for developing a certain level of renewable energy in those zones but also fostering entrepreneurial skill. That is what we must do. I agree with Senator Quinn that what we need to do is create a proper environment for entrepreneurs to do their job. We should get on with the business of politics and let the entrepreneurs do their job. We have to help them.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Very soon we will have the publication of a report on third level education by Colin Hunt yet in this Chamber we have not yet had a debate on our vision for third level education. We should debate that issue before Colin Hunt deliberates.

In this morning's Irish Independent there is an article about four Dublin colleges considering a merger. That may be a welcome development but a debate would allow us the opportunity to ask questions such as whether we need 14 institutes of technology and seven universities. Should we not be examining centres of excellence and specialisation and, more importantly, regional development? Our education policy should be knitted in with the development of our regions.

Yesterday, the Western Development Commission came into this House and spoke about the OECD's evidence. The Western Development Commission's evidence is that we should develop our regions and support lagging regions.

Senator Paudie Coffey

Hear, hear.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Education must form part of that infrastructure and it is dangerous to hand over that big area of importance to this country to the likes of Colin Hunt without Members of this House, who are from every part of the country, having our say on our vision for third level education. I look to the Leader to come forward with that debate once and for all.

Senator John Hanafin

First, when the new State was founded we took over at parliamentary level many of the procedures that stood in Westminster, some of which stood from when Queen Victoria was a teenager. I refer to strict parliamentary voting. When an issue of conscious arises and where it does not affect the standing of the Government I believe strong consideration should be given to allowing people to vote with their conscience. I refer in particular to the Civil Partnership Bill. I support the call from the Independent benches earlier for a debate on allowing people the right to vote according to their conscience on specific issues that do not affect either financial or Government policy. I refer to an area that might affect Finance Bills or bring down the economic plans of the Government.

Second, I am conscious there will be major revision in the allowances given for property reliefs in the next budget. That being the case, and with the evident move forward in the economy, an expectation of between 2.8% and 3% growth next year and the inevitable lag in employment between the time when the economy starts to grow and employment starts to pick up, is it not time to consider a shift towards employment based reliefs to ensure jobs can be created quickly and an extra boost given to innovation to allow people get back to work quickly?

Senator Paschal Mooney

Earlier this week, Members of this and the other House had the opportunity of meeting with a delegation led by the newly re-elected SDLP MP, Dr. Alasdair McDonnell from south Belfast. He accompanied the newly elected moderator of the Presbyterian Assembly of Ireland, the Rt. Reverend Norman Hamilton. The Leader will be aware that on one or two occasions in recent months I asked him to consider having a debate on Northern Ireland prior to the summer recess and that this debate would be wide-ranging rather than focusing, as I understand he intends to do, on the Saville inquiry, welcome though it is.

It was a breath of fresh air to listen to the Rt. Reverend Hamilton. He is adopting a conciliatory, cross-community approach but he also had some frightening figures to give to those who met him. Internecine strife may have ended in Northern Ireland but sectarianism is rife and pervasive and, as he put it, some 90% of the population of Northern Ireland are living in what he would refer to as their single identity areas. More so-called peace walls have been erected in Belfast since the Good Friday Agreement than have been dismantled and it is not only exclusive to Belfast; it is across Northern Ireland.

Those of us in the South are living in a comfort zone because the peace process is working on a superficial level — the Assembly is working, cross-Border relations are good and British-Irish relations are excellent. All I ask the Leader, in light of the views of the newly elected moderator and other views that have been expressed across the spectrum in Northern Ireland, is that we in this House would take the opportunity of assessing where we stand in our relationship with the North and whether we could be helpful in advancing the peace process.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Bacik, Boyle, Coffey, Callely, O'Reilly, Quinn, Coghlan and Mullen expressed their concerns about the visit of the chief executive of Anglo Irish Bank to the committee yesterday. I point out to the House that it is a fact that the €22 billion has not been paid over. It is in the form of promissory notes, but the advice given by the new chairman of Anglo Irish Bank, whom we all know and trust and who has made an immense contribution to public life in Ireland, is that we start a small business bank, as Senator Quinn rightly suggested, the equivalent of ICC bank. That would be a profitable bank, as we are all aware was the case with ICC. He referred to the immense importance of that being set up and that there could be a nil liability over the years all being well and with all the regulation now being put in place. Our counterparts in the United Kingdom made an announcement this morning on regulation in their banking system. There is a transformation in the banking system worldwide.

I share the view of Senator Callely who congratulated the National Treasury Management Agency on its success this week and the call for an investigation into the role of the Department of Finance and the need to have a debate on that in the House. Senator O'Toole was strong in his views on that last Tuesday in terms of accountability and the public record of official instruction being available at any time. I have no difficulty in having time left aside to allow this issue be discussed. I remind the House that I was disappointed on Tuesday because I allocated three hours for statements on the banking reports but the debate fell before the time was up. It is an exceptional week and I understand the circumstances.

Senators O'Toole, Bacik, Boyle, Norris, Buttimer, Hanafin and Mullen raised recent issues concerning the Civil Partnership Bill. I fully agree with freedom of expression. Those bishops who want to give their opinion to their congregations are free and correct to do so. It would be a terrible country if we only had one opinion and dictatorship. However, the Dáil and the Seanad, as legislators, have a duty to carry out the programme for Government. As the Deputy Leader pointed out, the Bill is at an advanced Stage in the Dáil. It will be in the Seanad in due course.

During all my years as a Member of both the Seanad and the Dáil, I have acknowledged on many occasions that Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú has been an outstanding Irishman and contributor in Seanad Éireann.

Senators Bacik, Leyden, Mullen, Dearey and Keaveney welcomed the partial opening of the blockade in Gaza. They also congratulated everyone involved in and associated with the MV Rachel Corrie. I have no difficulty with a debate on Israel’s role in the blockade. Like Senator Leyden, I too want to acknowledge those nine Turkish people who gave their lives for their strong beliefs in the cause. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has been exemplary in his steadfastness to see justice will be brought to bear in human rights issues in Gaza.

Senators Coffey, Buttimer, Quinn, Callely, Ó Brolcháin and Hanafin called for a debate on job creation. This is one of the most important debates we could have in the House. I will endeavour to have this take place before the summer recess. The Seanad will sit a week after the Dáil and this debate could include EU redundancy arrangements which Senator Coffey brought to our attention this morning. His recent visit to Europe has borne fruit. The €2.9 million from the European globalisation fund for Waterford Crystal workers is a godsend. All political parties in the Waterford area have played their part in this. This fund could also benefit many other groups affected by redundancy and I will make inquires about it in the Department after this morning's Order of Business.

Senator Leyden called for an urgent debate on how opinion polls are compiled. Those Members who were present in the House at 1.30 a.m. one morning debating banning opinion polls a week before elections will remember how the House played an important role in ensuring opinion polls could not be published on the day of polling. We have not seen the Bill since then. Interestingly, yesterday the Ipsos-MRBI survey company announced it will review the adjustments it makes to its poll data and will introduce a new approach for its next poll. Senator Leyden had a point and we will have a debate on opinion polls.

Senator Paschal Mooney

Senator Ross found the flaws in the last legislation.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senator Keaveney requested the introduction of an all-Ireland telephone charges package, a reasonable request. Following the Good Friday Agreement, it would be a natural progression. I will pass her request on to the Minister.

Senator Callely called for a debate on family law and the protection of family homes. This is a debate in which many would be interested and I will endeavour to have it included in the future. I will also see what briefings are available on the matter.

Senator Dearey raised the comprehensive outline given by the Minister for Health and Children to the House yesterday of her health portfolio. It was an outstanding and breathtaking contribution by her for half an hour without speaking notes. As the time allocated for the statements turned out not to be sufficient due to interest, she did not hesitate to offer to return to the House in the next two weeks. She has agreed a sitting day date with my office. Any Member who wants a comprehensive update on the health portfolio and the progress made under the Minister's stewardship should check her contribution in yesterday's Official Report.

Senator Ellis raised the matter of the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Ó Cuív, acceding to the request for miners who have suffered serious health problems due to their employment to be treated under the occupational injuries fund. They have been seeking fair play in this regard for some time. I welcome this development, expecting nothing less from the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, who is terrific in looking after small groups and communities and those on the margins.

Senator Ellis also called for a debate on the success of the development of transport infrastructure. There has been a huge transformation of our countryside with magnificent new roads open from Dublin to Cork, Dublin to Limerick and Dublin to Galway. Senator Ellis is correct that the construction of a dual carriageway from Mullingar to Roosky on the N4 should be one of the next projects to develop the Dublin to Sligo and Donegal road.

Senator Mooney called for a debate on Northern Ireland, regarding which I have already given a commitment. The serious concerns he raised need to be debated in the House.

Senator Healy Eames and other Members are concerned about the Government's policy on job creation. Over the past two years, the Government introduced stimulus measures to protect jobs in the short term. It introduced the employment subsidy scheme which supported 80,000 jobs and the enterprise stabilisation fund which directly supported 7,500 jobs last year. This year, it has invested over €1 billion, a substantial investment, to assist those who have lost their jobs, bringing the numbers in training, education and work experience for unemployed persons to 160,000.

Last year's budget saw the introduction of a short-term jobs stimulus package which included a national energy efficiency retrofit programme for houses and tax incentives for home energy efficiency which created 5,000 jobs. The car scrappage scheme and tax incentives for electric and hybrid vehicles will support 2,000 jobs. The reduction in excise duties on alcohol and the lowering of the VAT rate will assist hotels and the catering sector, which already employs over 230,000 people. The new employer PRSI exemption for new employees has been introduced to reduce the cost of new job creation.

The Tánaiste, Deputy Coughlan, when Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment put in place a new strategy for IDA Ireland. This targeted the creation of a further 62,000 new jobs in the next five years which could lead to the creation of an extra 43,000 jobs elsewhere in the economy. Any reasonable, fair-minded observer would have to say a great amount is being done in assisting those who are unemployed. Enterprise Ireland continues to support our indigenous companies, with the objective of creating a further 40,000 new jobs in the next five years, leading to the creation of another 28,000 jobs elsewhere in the economy.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

Senators

Vótáil.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Senators claiming a division please rise?

Senators Eoghan Harris, Rónán Mullen and Shane Ross rose.

An Cathaoirleach

As fewer than five Members have risen, I declare the question carried. The names of the Senators dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of Proceedings of the Seanad. Question declared carried.