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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 29 Jun 2010

Vol. 203 No. 11

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re combating the sexual abuse and sexual exploitation of children and child pornography, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, motion re Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 1; No. 3, motion re post-release (restrictions on certain activities) orders scheme 2010, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 2; No. 4, Electricity Regulation (Amendment) (Carbon Revenue Levy) Bill 2010 — Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 3; No. 5, earlier signature motion, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 4; and No. 6, Road Traffic Bill 2010 — Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 5 but not before 4.45 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7.30 p.m., on which spokespersons may speak for 12 minutes and all other Senators for ten minutes and Senators may share time, by agreement of the House.

The Wildlife (Amendment) Bill will be brought before the House this week. Every Senator is conscious of the cutbacks we have seen imposed in recent years. We have the parents and families of children protesting at the gates of Leinster House today because of the cutbacks to services for the intellectually disabled. A mother has told me about the respite care service that has been cut. Another has told me about the number of staff being cut back and the way the service to her child will be reduced as a result. There has been a range of cutbacks in the health service. We have seen medical card withdrawals and cutbacks to services for persons with special educational needs. Some €22 billion has been given to a dead bank and our children are carrying on their shoulders the debt resulting from that decision. None of these issues has caused a Government Deputy or Senator to question his or her support for the Government to any degree, yet there is a crisis of conscience in regard to the legislation that will be brought before the House tomorrow. The Wildlife (Amendment) Bill has been met by much criticism from Fianna Fáil Deputies and Senators. Seven Fianna Fáil Deputies stood up in the Dáil to express their strong opposition to its provisions. Two Independent Deputies have said they will not support the legislation. Senator O'Donovan has outlined his views on other legislation.

I have a number of questions for the Leader. Does he support the legislation being championed by the Green Party? Does he expect Senators on his side of the House to support it? Is he willing to allow more of his colleagues lose the party Whip, as the Green Party insists on progressing its agenda? Why is so much time being spent on this legislation when we have critical issues affecting citizens that I have outlined day in, day out which are exemplified more than anything else by the protests outside the gates of Leinster House at the cutbacks to services for persons with special needs? We need to hear from the Government parties on the critical issues affecting every citizen.

On the day after the murders of two people in Clondalkin in Mafia-style hits, what is the Government doing to tackle gangland activity? We were told by a previous Minister that we were seeing the last sting of a dying wasp and heard from another that the legislation that would make a difference was in place. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for Justice and Law Reform come to the House to address the issues which led to the latest gangland killings on the streets of our capital city last night.

This has been the most difficult year imaginable for the economy. As Senator Fitzgerald said, families have never found it more difficult to survive and to fight their way through the recession. I am quite appalled by the EUROSTAT food price survey which was released yesterday. It found that at a time when Irish farmers are getting 20 cent a litre for their milk, the lowest price for 40 years, Irish consumers, people buying food and dairy products, eggs, cheese and milk in supermarkets, were being charged the second highest prices in Europe. This is an inconsistency which is utterly unacceptable. For all those people who are quick enough to talk about the private and public sectors and inefficiencies in one or the other, this is a clear sign that market forces do not work on behalf of the consumer in all cases.

It is time we had a close look at this. I know the Leader sat on a committee which dealt with the whole question of price control and issues such as the groceries order. I do not wish us back in a command economy but if price control is the only way we can get fairness into ordinary trading of food products for ordinary families who are being hit from every side, then it is time we considered taking such action. We cannot countenance a situation to continue where our farmers are being paid the lowest prices in 40 years and our consumers such as housewives and shoppers buying those same products in supermarkets, are being charged the second highest prices or the highest prices in Europe. It is completely unacceptable.

I ask for a discussion on this issue with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or the Minister of State with responsibility for food. The farming community and the consumers should at least recognise where we stand on this and allow people to go on the record. If it means we have to do things that we did not do before or have not done for a long time, such as introducing price control, then that is what we need to do.

When the House returns in the autumn after the summer recess — that is, if there is the same configuration in these Houses as there is at present and according to who is in Government — there will be a short period of three months or perhaps less, before the budget. We had many phoney debates in the House last year about the budget and about the proposals for cuts. The debate became quite sterile. I suggest to colleagues that this autumn we might take the debate to a higher level than perhaps was possible last year when there was a sense of crisis — not that there is not still a sense of crisis — to get beyond simply talking about budgetary measures and cuts and readjustments, necessary as those are, but look to the future of this country. In particular, we should look at the very important issue of investment. We should discuss investment in the economy, investment in infrastructure, investment in people and in ideas so that we can genuinely turn the economy around. This would ensure we would have an economy when we get through the more immediate pressing budgetary crisis.

My party has brought forward a very carefully considered proposal for a strategic investment bank to marshal investment, to marshal resources towards productive activity, to get away from this long hangover we are experiencing as a result of basing our entire future on the construction industry. We need to look at new ideas and ways to marshal available funds into that kind of productive activity in the future. Those of my colleagues who have suggested that my party has no policies or deals in soundbites, might look at this document. I suggest it could form the basis, along with proposals from other parties, for us to get away from this sterile, if necessary, debate about the budget and look to the future.

I noted another contribution today which is relevant to the discussion. In Britain there is a proposal for the establishment of a new green investment bank. This type of initiative will seek to marshal public and private sector funding, given that it is so difficult to get financing for projects, including green projects, to help make this kind of investment which will fund productive activity in the economy. I know the Green Party supports such measures. I say that sincerely, but we must do more than talk about it. We need initiatives such as our proposal for a strategic investment bank or the green investment bank in the UK. Let us go beyond the immediate debate and brickbats about whether certain measures should be in the forthcoming budget, important as that should be, and have a real debate about the future of the economy.

I join Senator Alex White in calling for that debate so we can have a meaningful input into making the next budget. We should have a series of debates, with suggestions coming forward. A property tax was mentioned and it may be useful to debate the concept of a property tax in this House. If it is being contemplated by the Government, could it be applied in such a way as to ensure the less well-off are not penalised and those in a position to pay can pay? It would be interesting to debate issues such as the strategic investment bank proposals of the Labour Party, which may well have merit.

There was a debate on employment last week but I call for a debate specifically on the county enterprise boards. Interesting figures emerged in recent days, relating to the period 2000 to 2008. In assessing the performance of enterprise boards, the number of jobs created by enterprise board was in the region of 12,000 while Forfás reports indicate those created by the IDA, Enterprise Ireland and Údarás na Gaeltachta dropped by 18,000. It is important to have a debate on the reconfiguration that may take place in respect of enterprise boards. We should not throw out the baby with the bath water just because Mr. McCarthy's report insisted on their abolition or their being subsumed into Enterprise Ireland. We must focus on the micro-employment sector and the good work done in that area. It is too simple to suggest county enterprise boards be incorporated into Enterprise Ireland. During 2000 to 2008, they outperformed their higher profile colleagues in IDA and Enterprise Ireland. That is an important issue that must be taken on board. We must have savings and consolidation.

I second Senator Fitzgerald's amendment to the Order of Business. Two years ago we were promised we would have a designated unit for cystic fibrosis sufferers in St. Vincent's Hospital. It is a disgrace that building has not yet commenced. Cystic fibrosis sufferers must still queue in accident and emergency units and are placed in wards where they are at risk of infection. Statistics show that those who suffer from cystic fibrosis living in Northern Ireland will live ten years longer than on this side of the Border. That is a damning statistic for any health service. How much longer must those with cystic fibrosis and their families fight for basic necessities and facilities? We have regional hospitals throughout the country and they should have facilities and services to cater for cystic fibrosis. We have excellent consultants in many of these hospitals who specialise in cystic fibrosis but they do not have the facilities or other services. There is a lack of beds, isolation units and physiotherapists for adult cystic fibrosis sufferers. How long will we allow this to continue? The Minister for Health and Children must come into this Chamber and explain why the unit has not been started. She must account for her stewardship in this area. We must hear from the HSE why these facilities have not been provided for our people who are suffering on a daily basis. This is a matter of life and death.

Members need to get off their backsides and do something about it.

I agree with Senator Alex White that a debate is needed on a third banking force and investment bank. My party has been quite clear that, as is the case in the United Kingdom, it should be a green investment bank. The difference between aspiration and policy is that with aspiration, one lacks the detail of stating what are the new ideas, what level of investment is needed and what are the desired outcomes. I would argue that Opposition parties' documents lack this and are aspirational rather then fully fledged policies. Moreover, the Government's smart economy document at least details what can be done.

What should be done in a debate is not merely to indulge in mom and apple pie rhetoric but to outline the hard decisions that will be taken and the unpopular decisions that must be taken if in government.

Has Senator Boyle read the document?

Because the reality——

Has Senator Boyle read the document?

No interruptions, please.

For the next five years, whoever is in Government and whatever is the configuration of that Government, public expenditure controls will be required. Consequently, all political parties must outline their positions in respect of such public expenditure controls and what pain would be entailed.

As for the debates that are occurring in the other House and will take place in this House, I wish to correct the record in respect of the comments made earlier by Senator Fitzgerald. The Dog Breeding Establishments Bill is not a Green Party Bill. It is a Bill the process of which commenced in 2006 under the then Fianna Fáil Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche.

The Green Party has left it mark on it though, as it has been completely changed.

No interruptions now.

Moreover, the recommendations of the working group form the basis of that legislation.

Half of them were not consulted.

I look forward to seeing how prominent members of Fine Gael, who have advocated animal welfare rights in the past, will vote this evening. Similarly, I am anxious to find out whether Labour Party Members are willing to do the same.

We also will be watching how Government Members vote.

Members, please.

The Government is wobbling enough as it is.

I commend Members of the——

In particular, the Fianna Fáil Members should be watched.

No interruptions. Members are on questions to the Leader on the Order of Business, please.

They should wobble to the left a little.

I am asking the Leader how both legislative items are to be processed in the coming week. I commend two Members of the other House who do not support the Government but who clearly will support this evening the Government position as outlined in the programme for Government.

I will conclude by noting that I find it somewhat depressing that some within our political system make an issue of such things when there are more important matters to be discussed. There are economic difficulties and social policies to be debated.

Time, please.

However, the reality of processing legislation——

They appear to be the Senator's priorities.

They are Green Party priorities.

The Senator's time has elapsed. No interruptions, please.

The reality of processing legislation in both Houses is that Members must deal with individual items of legislation as they come before each House.

It reflects the Senator's priority.

Time, please.

I would like to see a future scenario in which either of the Opposition parties does not present a Bill or motion during Private Members' time that does not relate directly to the economy.

Where is the Climate Change Bill?

The Government is using its own time highly creatively tonight.

I support my colleague, Senator O'Toole, who expressed his concern about the prices for various products. In particular, we are right up at the top for bread, cereals, meat, milk, cheese and eggs. The list is interesting because I believe I was just about the only Member of this House who opposed the abolition of the groceries order. Members were told by allegedly reputable financial sources that a list of goods would fall in price. However, the price of every single one of them has risen. What I prophesied has happened, namely, prices have risen and the net impact of the removal of the groceries order has been to concentrate power in the hands of some of the larger supermarkets and food conglomerates and to drive out the smaller shops.

I am not certain whether my colleague and friend, Senator Quinn, meant to say "good" when I was talking about the driving out of the small shops. Perhaps he did because Members know his theme is that the customer is always right.

I greatly regret that Ireland still is a customer for Israeli arms and expressed considerable concerns in this regard on an Adjournment matter. I seek a debate on the arms trade in general in light of articles that recently have appeared indicating the European Union intends to buy substantial quantities or many millions of arms from the Israeli companies that devised, facilitated, produced and operated the drones that were used in the murders of civilians in Gaza.

Finally, I refer to the issue of human rights. I am sure the Leader will agree it is very sad that, in the aftermath of the President's successful visit to China, a Tibetan environmental activist has been sentenced to 15 years for doing nothing other than standing up for the environment. I hope these matters will be raised with the Chinese Government which is continuing a programme of oppressive imperialism in Tibet.

I share the comments made, particularly by Senators O'Toole and Norris but I am sure by others also, on the EUROSTAT survey. In fact, it is not a concern any more, it is real anger at a multinational which is hiding behind statistics and the assumption that somehow because we are an island nation we have higher transport and taxation costs. The EUROSTAT survey blows that argument completely out of the water. It is past time that the people concerned were brought to book in that regard. I do not know how this could be done under legislation, but during his time as a Deputy the Leader of the House chaired a committee which examined this and other issues and I am sure he will respond to the comments made. It is past time that some action was taken, particularly in the light of the fact that as an island economy we make a big play of the green environment in which we grow basic foodstuffs which we manufacture and sell abroad. It has reached a sorry state that other countries in Europe are selling our produce much cheaper than we can sell it in this country. Farmers are correctly up in arms over the fact that their incomes have reduced significantly in recent years. What do farm families think when they look at the EUROSTAT survey? What annoys me, in particular, is that everyone in the economy has been tightening his or her belt in the past two years. People have taken cuts in their wages and working week. I charge the multinationals, specifically one company which has come to this country and in effect dominated the grocery sector.

Please, Senator.

It is using the most despicable habits and activities to put pressure on suppliers in this country. It is time it was brought to book. This is not about cost anymore or creating or maintaining jobs but capitalist greed that is driving this particular multinational to keep prices artificially high. It is long past time that it was stopped.

I too voice concerns, as expressed by Senator O'Toole and others on the EUROSTAT pricing survey which shows clearly that this country is now one of the most expensive in the eurozone. Farmers and farming communities are the primary producers of top quality, green produce. On many occasions in the House we have debated how we can find new export markets. They are the ones who are doing the hard work. How must they have felt when the statistics were published yesterday? They must be demoralised to see the profit margins being whisked off by the multinationals, as my colleague opposite indicated. It is important that we have a debate on sustainability in Irish produce, the future of farming and how profit margins can be retained to sustain farming families.

Two Government Bills are going through the Houses of the Oireachtas that are essentially anti-rural, as most Members of the House realise. It is the thin end of the wedge. I refer to the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill and the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill which are an attack on traditional, rural pursuits that date back as far as Fionn and the Fianna. The Leader's party calls itself the Soldiers of Destiny and the word "Fianna" is in the title. I urge Members to take the admirable stance adopted by Senator O'Donovan last week and stand up and be counted in support of rural Ireland because this is only the start——

We can debate the matter when the Bill is before the House.

——of a succession of legislation that will have serious consequences for the greyhound and horse industries. I remind the Leader that ten local authorities have opposed the legislation referred to by resolution. Members of his party have voted in local authorities, people who elected the Leader and his colleagues to this House. I appeal to Fianna Fáil Senators and Deputies to stand up and be counted this week in support of rural Ireland.

Like my colleagues, I refer to the EUROSTAT survey which shows exactly what we have been saying for the past 12 or 18 months, namely, that primary producers are being ripped off, while the multinationals are making enormous profits at the expense of rural Ireland and primary producers. We must do something about this. We had an inquiry into the cartels which operated in the car industry, following which car dealers were prosecuted. The same type of investigation needs to be carried out into the food industry.

The pressure applied to suppliers of multinationals is enormous. They are forced to take from producers the margin they must give to the multinationals. The net result is that although primary producers are subsidised by the European Union, the subsidies are often their only income. Excepting imported food, I predict food shortages in Europe within the next five years. Food production is not viable now and something will have to be done about it.

I raised with the Leader the possibility of having a debate before the summer recess on expenditure on infrastructure by the Government, especially in view of the €6 billion that is to be spent thereon. We should debate this. It is important that the money be spent, that we do not just talk about spending it and that we have full details on where it is proposed to be spent. Spending money will help to reduce unemployment. That should be the aim of everybody.

I read in The Irish Times today that the State has paid well more than €17 million in fees for banking crisis advice. I notice that €3.9 million was paid to Arthur Cox from September 2008 to June 2009 for consultancy work on the State bank guarantee, the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank and the recapitalisation of Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland. Arthur Cox advised the National Asset Management Agency, as it has advised some of the banks. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Finance whether Arthur Cox has a monopoly on legal advice to the State and State agencies? If so, it is very unhealthy. There are potential conflicts of interest about which I do not feel comfortable if one firm is advising so many State bodies on the same issues.

We are always saying in this House that the Seanad should have more responsibility and that there are committees that can do valuable work. We have a committee to deal with an issue that is doing extraordinary damage to this House. I refer to the investigation into Senator Callely's expenses claims over the past two years.

That is under investigation by the committee, which is sitting at the moment.

I am very concerned about the manner in which that committee is going about its business. It is very important that it get it right and that it obtain the information with which it can verify the facts and draw verifiable conclusions.

I am not going down that road. That committee is sitting.

I concur with some of the speakers on many of the issues that have caused concern among those who are less well off, including working class people and the many unemployed.

Will the Leader clarify a matter in respect of how the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill was ordered? What bothers me is that the Bill was parked for nearly three months on Committee Stage. When we dealt with Report and Final Stages two weeks ago, I was astonished that a Minister, despite the delay of several weeks, refused to table any amendments in the Seanad. This is a bad precedent to set. I am in the position I am in and am not seeking to be glorified but this issue has developed a huge head of steam and might bring down the Government, which I certainly would not like to see at this stage. I ask the Leader, through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, to determine whether this is the way the Seanad is to be treated in the future.

The Minister had ample opportunity to table amendments. He suggested certain amendments in the House and at the same time said that under no circumstances would he accept amendments in the House. We are asked to return the week after next to deal with amendments that may very well be sorted out in the Dáil. This troubles me severely because it puts me in an invidious position.

It happened with the Adoption Bill and with other legislation.

In fairness to Senators Coffey and Cummins on the other side of the House, they had only six amendments tabled on Report Stage, three of which were legitimate. If this issue had been dealt with in the House through full and proper debate, the huge head of steam that has built up in the past ten days could have been avoided.

I refer to an old hobbyhorse of mine in respect of which I do not wish to lock horns with the Leader. About a year ago, the Leader promised me a debate, before the summer recess, on the fishing industry and the Common Fisheries Policy. I would be extremely disappointed if I had to head back to west Cork this summer not having had such a debate. It is so important to people in rural Ireland and those involved in the fishing industry.

I join Senator Fitzgerald in asking the Leader a specific question. Is it the case that the Government of which he is a member puts more value on the stag and on dogs than on human beings? If the Leader answers that question honestly, the answer will be that it is.

Why ask if he knows the answer?

Not one Member opposite came into this House to vote against the cuts in social welfare or any financial matter which affected people. We have not heard one positive comment about employment from them, and today we got a frenzy by the national media and backbench Fianna Fáil TDs and some Senators about stags and dogs. What happened to people? What happened to the people in Neilstown last night who were killed? Where has zero tolerance gone? Where has the last sting of a dying wasp gone?

A question to the Leader.

That is a specific question to the Leader.

What are the questions?

Those are comments attributed to members of his Government who came into Government on the crest of zero tolerance. Where is it today? There are cuts in gardaí. There are gardaí in Cork city who do not have a car to drive in because it has been taken off the road because it has gone over the threshold of miles. There are gardaí who cannot get the proper equipment because of the cutbacks. How can they do their work, if that is the case, not supported by Government? We have Government who today — I note the silence opposite — go out on the plinth and talk about stags and dogs, but they cannot talk about people. They cannot talk about the people about whom Senator Cummins spoke who are affected by cystic fibrosis. Their silence is deafening. They should be ashamed of themselves.

First, I commend the Garda on the massive drugs seizure this week — €10 million worth of cocaine. It shows the co-operation taking place is very important but is also working. It will ensure that people on our streets in every town and village in Ireland will have less drugs at their disposal.

I want to raise with the Leader the fact that on Friday at the Council of Europe there was a report unanimously passed looking for regulation to be brought in by national parliaments to ban the mosquito device. The mosquito device is a sonic device that is being used against young people to stop them congregating in public places and it is a breach of their fundamental human rights. The biggest difficulty is that people under the age of 25 are being focused on. Everybody is born with an arc of hearing and they can hear very high or very low. As they grow older everyone loses capacity at a particular frequency. Because we do not hear this device, we think it does not exist but there are people in the Gallery who would hear it. Whether we are going along with a nephew, niece, grandchild or child, often those children are not of an age at which they can say there is a problem because they have not got the words to articulate it and we do not hear it because we are over 25. It is a very serious issue, according to the European Youth Forum and, therefore, addressing the issue received international unanimity at Council of Europe level. I ask that we would have a debate on this issue here. Unless people are debating it they are not aware of it. Because they are not aware of it they think it does not exist and because they think it does not exist there are young people being targeted right around the country and being punished for a crime they did not commit.

We all were jolted by the EUROSTAT figures. I suggest the fault and the answer is in our own hands. When I entered the grocery business way back in the 1960s power was in the hands of the suppliers and those of us in the grocery business were told by Jacob's, Cadbury and others what we must do, what we must sell and we could not sell at a certain price or they would not supply us. Then in the next 20 years power came into the hands of retailers, I am delighted to say, and we were able to say to the suppliers that we would do what we wanted. Power is now in the hands of customers, the citizens of Ireland, the consumers. They are the ones who have the choice, particularly since competition is no longer in the hands of Irish retailers but in the hands of retailers from whatever part of the world. Every town in Ireland it seems has two German retailers, one British retailer and a number of Irish retailers. If we have anybody to blame for high prices, it is ourselves for not being able to insist on getting lower prices because there is fierce competition.

I disagree with my friend, Senator Norris, on the groceries order. The groceries order was there to protect suppliers. It did not protect suppliers. If it did protect suppliers, it was not in the interests of consumers. I agreed that the groceries order needed to go because that was in the interests of consumers.

We were told prices would come down, but they did not.

I will use milk as an example, as I did not examine the EUROSTAT findings well enough to be sure. I tried to buy milk in France, Germany and Spain while I was on vacation. The only milk one can get is long-life milk. It is not the same milk. One can get milk like ours but it is very difficult to get it. Some 94% of the milk consumed in France, Germany and Spain is long-life, UHD milk. Here is an opportunity for Irish producers to be able to do something, to be able to get the real milk we are used to and that is so good. The dairy industry has an opportunity to do something on that basis. New Zealand has a company called Fonterra, which accounts for 2.7% of the global market. Glanbia, our largest company, accounts for 0.4%. Surely there is something that Ireland can do in terms of manufacturing to ensure we produce products that the rest of the world wants. The matter is in our hands. In particular, the issue of pricing is in the hands of the consumers to demand what they want. They have a choice between a number of different outlets. It is in the hands of the suppliers to produce the products their customers want.

I support the call by Senators Alex White and MacSharry for a debate on job creation. We should consider ideas like England's green investment bank. We must concentrate on unemployment. It will take some time for the numbers of unemployed to reduce, which is the inevitable outcome of any recession caused by a financial meltdown.

I join Senators who discussed the EUROSTAT figures. It is alarming that, although we are in a recession, our prices are among the highest in Europe. There are a number of reasons, including the Tesco monopoly mentioned by Senator Mooney. I was taken by Senator Quinn's comments, in that it is up to the consumers to play their part. Unfortunately, they are not playing their part. Senator O'Toole might be surprised to hear me say it, but I concur that the market does not work in every scenario. Where it does not, we should be prepared to regulate. At this point, we should consider price controls.

My final point is on a related matter. I seek a debate on last week's comments by the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland on improving our competitiveness and the impediment posed by the joint labour agreements to job creation. Many of these agreements predate the introduction of the minimum wage. Not so long ago, we debated the construction industry. A large number of the people who are unemployed come from that industry. General operatives' wage rates in the industry are 40% higher than they are in Germany. Will the Leader arrange a combined debate on these issues? Prices relate to wages and vice versa. I would like an urgent debate as soon as possible.

I rise to extend my sympathy to the Corbally family. Valuable life was wasted in cold blood. I commend the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy, on the sensitive way in which he spoke during the lunchtime news about the two young men's families and the teenager badly injured in the back of the car. I question how the good, honest and decent people of Neilstown in the Clondalkin area are able to live in peace and comfort. I support Senator Fitzgerald's call for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to attend the House urgently to debate justice and how we are dealing with gangland crime. Children number among all of these families, yet drugs, greed and money have become the catalyst for the degeneration of society. I urge the Leader to bring the Minister to the House to discuss how we are going to deal with the matter.

On another issue, Mr. P. J. Stone has come out strongly on the revolving door system in the prison service and the fact that the Thornton Hall project is not proceeding. Planning permission was obtained to build a road and monumental amounts of money have been spent on design teams, etc. It is clear the penal reform system is not working. We should have a debate on how we rehabilitate prisoners and persuade people not to take this degenerate route towards killing people without necessity. These two points need to be discussed urgently because we are talking about a breakdown of our society. People need to be able to live in peace and harmony without the threat of violence consistently hanging over their heads.

On the points raised by Senator O'Toole and others, I ask the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on consumer rights, pricing and the EUROSTAT survey. Senator Quinn is right in saying there is no strong consumer lobby in Ireland. There should be a consumer group in every town monitoring prices, similar to the name and shame campaign I launched here on petrol and diesel prices. I was followed by the Fine Gael Party which I hope will rebuild its website on the issue of prices.

There is a reference to "Rip-off Ireland" on the website.

No interruptions, please.

It was called "Rip-off Ireland".

If there was a strong consumer group in every town, with prices being published every week in the local newspaper showing exactly who was the most competitive, the people would respond, as would Tesco, Dunnes and all the others.

What question does the Senator have for the Leader?

I have a question for him, to which I hope he will respond, although it might be more appropriate for the Cathaoirleach to do so. Senator Regan's contribution in The Irish Mail on Sunday was extraordinary in that he was second-guessing the work of the committee chaired by the Cathaoirleach. I am surprised the Cathaoirleach is not taking action because I regard what the Senator is doing as being in contempt of the hearings being held into the matter. He is reflecting on another barrister who is not a senior counsel, as yet, namely, Senator Alex White, as well as Senators Fitzgerald, O’Donovan——-

I chair the Seanad and do not need anyone to tell me how I should do so. The House is hearing questions to the Leader on the Order of Business and I do not want to hear comments to Members across the floor about what they did or did not do, or put in print.

I am not reflecting on anyone, but I want to know whether the Cathaoirleach read The Irish Mail on Sunday. If not, he should do so. You should bring that man before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

I ask the Senator to refer his questions to the Leader. We are on the Order of Business.

There might be more of a response to Fintan O'Toole than there was——

The Senator is out of order.

The Senator might make the headlines.

I ask Senator Leyden not to lower the standard in the House. If he keeps this up, I shall ask him to leave.

I thought I was raising it, actually. He is the one who is lowering it.

Is Senator Leyden now the Cathaoirleach? He should respect the Chair.

You are the assassin.

Please, we shall have none of that across the floor. That language is uncalled for and I ask the Senator to withdraw it immediately.

I meant to say "political assassin", but I withdraw it.

I did not hear the words "political assassin", only "assassin".

I do not want this to continue on the Order of Business. I call Senator Mullen.

The Cathaoirleach might reset the start button.

It has been pressed half-way.

It is customary for Members to address points to the Leader or the Cathaoirleach at this point in the proceedings. I would be grateful, however, if the Leader or Green Party Senators for whom I have the highest regard conveyed to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, that many have expressed disquiet at his comments on the rights of church leaders to comment on legislation. I refer, in particular, to the Civil Partnership Bill, on which he said something to the effect that he thought the era of church interference had come to an end. Archbishop Martin spoke with his usual clarity when he observed that only one year ago some politicians had been giving out about church leaders for not being vocal enough in making their position on the Lisbon treaty known. I was disappointed at the Minister's comments and believe they reflect a failure to understand the views of all groups within civic society must be welcomed. As a Minister, he should welcome the participation of all groups in the debate. Since I have no doubt he would not object to church pronouncements in support of environmental protection, I can only conclude it was a cheap shot given the perceived weakness of the church at the moment. I regret it. It would be greatly to his credit if he took an opportunity to withdraw the comment, having reflected on it.

The bishops are correct in calling for a free vote on this issue, particularly as it has to do with delicate issues of conscience.

What is the Senator's question to the Leader?

It would be very regrettable if politicians got worked up about issues such as pub closing times or country sports but were not seen to support a free vote when important issues relating to family, marriage and sensitive issues of conscience are concerned.

The Senator's time is up.

Children know when a gesture of discipline is a loving one as opposed to a self-indulgent one. We should seek to educate parents but not to over-regulate family life.

Time now, Senator. I call Senator Dearey.

I ask the Leader for an urgent resumption of the debate on health services we had in the House with the Minister for Health and Children the week before last. During that debate, I put it to her that the reconfiguration of health services in the north east was being done in a hasty and premature way given the inability of the Lourdes hospital in Drogheda to deal with the additional load resulting from the closure of acute services at the Louth hospital.

It is with a heavy heart that I have to say this move has gone ahead. I am concerned, angry and dismayed at this move. The Minister has the power under Part 7 of the Health Act 2004 to direct the Health Service Executive review its transformation programme in the north east and suspend it pending a decision on whether the Lourdes hospital is fit to be the de facto regional hospital.

I believe it is not and most people in the region do not see it as such either. Given its litany of disastrous malpractice and record on hygiene, which I admit it is making strenuous efforts to improve, it is not fit to take the additional load that is about to be imposed on it. I look forward to the resumption of the debate on health services so that the Minister can respond to my plea for a suspension of the transformation programme in the north east.

For Senator Norris's information, the Green Party always opposed the groceries order being revoked. While I was not a Member at the time, as a councillor I opposed it being rescinded. I saw such a move as not being in the best interests of the indigenous food sector. Instead, I saw it as a breach of the ancient model of retailing of selling as much as possible in as small a space as possible in as short a time as possible. The order stood generations and town centres well. It is a model that needs to be re-examined now that the era of cheap credit and energy, which led to the proliferation of the large out-of-town retail park model is coming to an end. Town centres are beginning to claim for themselves their function again. In that light, the groceries order needs to be revisited.

I join colleagues on this side of the House who have raised concerns about some of the legislation to be dealt with in the House this week. I have particular views on the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill and the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill which I have voiced before.

In the past weeks I have asked the Leader for a debate on the care of the elderly, particularly for supported care homes and Alzheimer's care. Every day of the week I am told by members of the public that it is appalling the Oireachtas is devoting a large amount of time to debating stag hunting when people are worried about where their elderly parents, aunts or uncles will see out the rest of their lives. There are also other issues of concern to people which have been raised by other Senators.

The Leader is on the record as saying we would have a debate on the care of the elderly before the summer recess yet we will sit for four days this week and it is not on the schedule. It is particularly disappointing listening to Senator Boyle's comments on what the Opposition should have in its Private Members' time. We had statements on employment last week and most of the Government speakers praised the Government's belated action with regard to a holiday on PRSI. There will be a two hour debate tomorrow night on the very same thing they were speaking about last week, that is, the kind of self-congratulatory motion the Government side always introduces on Private Members' business. If the Leader cannot hold a debate on care of the elderly during regular time, perhaps he could put it down during Government Private Members' time.

The Leader should have done as much this week. I wish to see the matter discussed as soon as possible.

He should do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Senator Cummins's statement on the sufferers of cystic fibrosis. This is a real issue of life and death. We are discussing stags and greyhounds here this week but these people are worried about whether they will live or die, a shocking indictment of where the Government's priorities lie.

I refer to the importance of what Senator Rónán Mullen said with regard to free speech not only for one church, but for all churches. I compliment the Church of Ireland bishops who have been very much to the fore on the issue. I have no wish to go into the issue but the Leader should acknowledge the importance of what Senator Rónán Mullen said with regard to upholding the right of free speech of churches, groups and individuals and to interact with any debate on any legislation in the State. If we suggest in some way that it is not politically correct to do so then what we have is a dictatorship in disguise.

All genuine democrats in the State contribute to the maintenance of an ordered and civilised society. Central to this way of life is law and order. This law and order is so well served by the Garda Síochána. The massacre of two young men recently must have sounded alarm bells for everyone in the State once again. In effect, it means the gang wars going on at the moment are virtually out of control. In the past, we were always particularly comfortable with the notion that good would always succeed over evil. There may be a growing misconception or perception abroad at the moment that we should let the gangs fight it out and eliminate each other. We saw exactly the same in Chicago with the Mafia and we know precisely what happened to society as a result of that. I agree with Senator Frances Fitzgerald that we need to prioritise on issues which are fundamental to the continuation of an ordered society. I call on the Leader to hold a debate specifically on this issue before the summer recess. I am concerned that we are acquiescing at the moment to a cancer in our society that we should confront.

I wish to address the issue raised by Senators Mullen and Ó Murchú in the past few minutes. It is important that those of us who do not necessarily agree with the views expressed by those in the hierarchy should defend their right to state them. It is difficult to maintain that they should keep their mouths shut because we do not like what they say and it is wrong do so. We should let the message go out from this House that even if these people express views of which we do not approve, the House approves their right to voice them. No group, whether the Roman Catholic church or any group especially unpopular at the moment for other reasons, should be suppressed or silenced in their views. All lobby groups and individuals have a right to an opinion, even if we do not share it. That should go out, as Senator Ó Murchú stated, whether we are referring to the Protestant or Catholic bishops. Let us hear and respect what they have to say.

With this in mind, this side of the House should ask the Leader the position on the Civil Partnership Bill which, I presume, will come before us next week or the week after. The Seanad is meant to be less political than other Houses. Will the Leader consider allowing a free vote to Members of the House? The Cathaoirleach will correct me on this but I do not think the Seanad recognises parties or the fact that we have parties as such. On an issue of this sort, which is obviously of deep concern and a conscientious concern to Members of this House, it would be appropriate that the Bill should go to a free vote rather than a party vote. It has been a long time, if ever, since the Seanad has been allowed a free vote on an issue of this sort but the Government is not threatened by it. Even if that Bill was defeated or amended there would be no threat to the Government and the Bill itself might be improved. I ask the Leader to consider that in the light of the strong feelings held by members of his own party and by other members of this House.

I support Senator O'Toole and many other colleagues who spoke on the EUROSTAT. It is damning that a quote cannot be given by the factories for lamb given that we have the second highest prices in Europe. Will the Leader ask the two relevant Ministers to come into the House? As Senator Ellis outlined, there is a cartel which has to be broken if farmers are to get an equitable price for their produce. If what is going on continues there will be no farmers to produce and then we will know their value. I support Senator O'Donovan's call for a debate on fisheries. Senator McCarthy and I attended a meeting recently in Brussels on fisheries where it was stressed that the next couple of weeks will be vitally important to the fishing industry so far as the European concept is concerned.

On a lighter note, I am delighted the Cathaoirleach has got a new ally across the way in Senator Buttimer who will support him and is seeking respect for the Chair.

I refer to the viciousness of the criminal gangs here. The murders last night were atrocious. It is a miracle that the teenager in the back of the car escaped with his life. We wish that youngster a full recovery. It is appalling that there is such scant regard for human life in this day and age. It is astounding that some prisoners have access to mobile telephones and BlackBerries while in some parts of the country some Garda stations do not even have e-mail facilities. For the Garda to detect crime and secure convictions it is essential that every resource it needs is supplied. I support the comments of the Garda Commissioner to that effect on the radio earlier today. We must bear in mind that at the end of the day a family has lost two sons and men and women have lost two brothers. It is an appalling tragedy. I object to the use of the term "known to the Garda". We know the scale of corporate crime during the boom. We know the people who have bankrupted the State who literally walk the streets as free people and they will never be termed "known to the Garda". That does not lessen the crime of robbing two young men of their lives and putting a family into turmoil and grief and the tit for tat killings that may follow as somebody else, somebody who is completely innocent, may be caught in that cross-fire. It is imperative that the resources the commissioner speaks of so often are provided to him and the force to enable them to do an effective job and put this type of scum behind bars where it belongs.

I share Senator Fitzgerald's concern at the escalation of gangland crime and not only murder but double murder on our streets. When feasible I would wholeheartedly welcome a debate on this matter. My concern is that one of these gangland activities will involve some innocent member or members of the public who may be injured or killed.

Will the Leader arrange briefing documents in regard to regulations governing health related service providers, such as all types of counselling services, professional, ethical and so on? Particularly today one will be drawn to media coverage on pregnancy advice and counselling services. There is also a huge industry in psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery. Will the Leader to ask the Minister for Health and Children when she comes before the House on the health debate to include these issues and the regulations governing them? Perhaps we could have the information prior to the Minister coming before the House.

Like other Senators I ask for a debate on freedom of conscience. I am cognisant that there have been question marks over the hierarchy of a couple of churches speaking out on the issue. It is incredible that in this day and age people would not understand that not only does the hierarchy have a right to speak out but the hierarchy of the churches has a duty to speak out on the gospels. That leads to the Civil Partnership Bill. The European courts has now decided that it is not a fundamental human right notwithstanding the fact that it was certainly misrepresented. It was in the air that if we did not pass the Bill it would be directed by Europe. That simply has not happened. One of the bases for the production of the Civil Partnership Bill has now been taken from underneath it.

I appreciate the Cathaoirleach allowing me to speak so I will be brief. As a country and a State we depend completely on the role of carers in the home. As Government policy has shifted towards keeping people in their own homes we depend on carers even more. I appreciate that the Leader has indicated that should the pressure of business allow he will try to facilitate a debate on carers before the end of the session. Will this debate be taken before the end of the session? It would mean a lot to carers to know that we acknowledge and recognise their role and that we are making provision for the future.

Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Alex White, Cummins, McFadden, Ó Murchú, McCarthy and Callely raised various issues regarding ministerial portfolios. As we all know the Minister for Health and Children will be in the House again this week and next week when it is timely that all the issues on health should be put to her. In regard to the information being requested of me today, she has been very forthcoming and has been extremely supportive. Her appearance in this House two weeks ago was first class, as I said on the Order of Business last week, and in respect of all information required she was extremely forthcoming.

I agree with Senator Cummins in regard to cystic fibrosis patients who live up to 10 years longer in the North of Ireland. This is a serious issue and one that I am sure the Minister realises. However, we want to get her response when she comes to the House next week.

I join the many Senators I have mentioned already, including Senator Buttimer, in their comments on the two horrific murders that took place last night. The Minister for Justice and Law Reform has the greatest number of requests for legislation to deal with the increasing difficulties faced by the Garda Síochána and the Garda Commissioner. I convey our condolences to the family of the two bereaved and wish the young man well who has been seriously injured.

On the level of investment being made in the Garda Síochána, I noted that the two new Garda stations opened last week at Ballymote and Claremorris cost in excess of €11 million at a time of scarce resources. The commissioner is on record as having acknowledged and thanked the Minister for the investment being made. However, the challenges facing the commissioner, the Garda Síochána, the Government and we as a nation are mind boggling. We never thought we would see the day that one house in a nice quiet residential area would have a €9.5 million factory manufacturing illegal substances. Two guns were also found there. Some €60,000 was found in another area and millions of euro worth of drugs. The men and women who represent us in the Garda Síochána need all the support and help they can get and it behoves Members on all sides of the House to ensure they receive it. We have an excellent Minister for Justice and Law Reform who is doing everything he can to give the Garda Commissioner, at his request, the tools required to beat the criminals at their own game.

Senators O'Toole, Norris, Mooney, Coffey, Ellis, Quinn, Walsh, Leyden and Carty expressed serious concern about the EUROSTAT report on the major differences in prices. I understand the report is nine months out of date and that there has been an 8.6% reduction in prices here since the work on the report was carried out. I also understand there has been a 5% increase in the strength of sterling against the dollar. If that is the case, there is a serious difference in prices for consumers today from what they were then. I chaired the committee which dealt with the groceries order. As Senator O'Toole correctly pointed out, all parties — the Labour Party, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil — which were represented on that hard working committee by Members such as Senators Leyden, Coghlan and Callely supported retaining the order. There is no way it should be legal to sell below cost. It is that simple. It is unfair to say those of us who were reared and still live in rural villages are better off now than we were when there were small shops in villages. The big supermarkets are eliminating the corner shop. We had a choice of up to five outlets in which to buy products, but that is no longer the case. I am still a member of the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment and will bring this matter to the attention of its Chairman after the Order of Business. I will ask him to convene a special meeting of the committee to resume our deliberations on the EUROSTAT figures. I will refer back to the House with the findings of the committee after the summer recess. However, I understand there has been a substantial reduction of 8.6% in prices here since the figures were collected for the report.

Senators Alex White, MacSharry, Boyle, Ellis and Walsh called for a special debate on investment in the economy, investment banks and the new investment bank in England. It is a matter of huge importance. I was delighted when the Taoiseach confirmed last week that 5% of GDP would continue to be invested in capital projects. As Senator Ellis pointed out, this amounts to a figure of €6 billion, which sum is crucial for investment in major projects. In the dual carriageways from Dublin to Cork, Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Limerick we can see the massive infrastructural investment that has taken place, which investment was necessary and from which our constituents are benefiting hugely. I will have no difficulty in organising a debate on the issue. During Private Members' business tomorrow night we will debate a Fianna Fáil motion on job creation and everything relating to the schemes being brought forward such as the PRSI incentive scheme. If a Member has a good idea in that regard, I certainly wish to hear it. I will also allocate whatever time is required, on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, for debates on the issue to support whatever can be done to create jobs.

Senator MacSharry referred to the enterprise boards and the reconfiguration being discussed and considered by the Minister. Like the Senator, I acknowledge the great performance of the boards which are out-performing many Government agencies. I hope this will be acknowledged by the Government. I will certainly invite the Minister to come to the House to discuss his proposals for the future of the boards.

Senator Norris raised a human rights issue relating to China. I will convey his strong views to the Minister for Foreign Affairs after the Order of Business.

Senators Regan and Leyden spoke about State spending. Senator Regan also referred to €17 million being spent on legal advice. As we all know, legal advice is the one area that appears to be unaffected by the recession. We must have an all-day debate on the high fees of barristers, solicitors and everybody connected with the legal profession. I ask Members of the House who are members of the legal profession, including Senators Regan and Alex White, and have expertise in the area to come to the assistance of the State at this crucial time in the country's history.

The call made today is timely. I will seek the assistance of colleagues on all sides of the House in that regard after the summer recess.

Write about that in The Irish Mail on Sunday.

The Leader did not answer the question the Senator asked.

The Senator is not a legal practitioner.

Answer the question he asked. The Leader is ducking and diving.

Please, Senator Buttimer.

The Leader should answer the question he was asked. It might send me a signal.

The Leader would not answer the question he was asked. There is a cosy cartel over there all right.

Senator Buttimer, please give the Leader a chance to answer.

He did not answer the question.

Give him a chance to do so. He has not concluded.

He has had 20 minutes in which to do so, but he has not answered it. He has been waffling for 20 minutes.

Please, Senator.

Senator O'Donovan referred to the greyhound Bill. The business of the House is ordered well in advance; everybody receives the schedule for the following week on the previous Thursday. That will continue to be the case.

Senators O'Donovan and Carty called for another debate on the fishing industry. I have no difficulty with that proposal and will endeavour to ensure the debate takes place before the summer recess.

I will convey to the Minister the strong views expressed by Senator Keaveney. With regard to the issues raised by Senator McFadden, I will see what I can do and reply to the Senator on the Order of Business tomorrow morning.

Senator Walsh called for a debate on competitiveness. I will arrange such a debate.

Senator Dearey spoke about the debate on health issues due to resume in the presence of the Minister next week and issues of concern in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. The Minister can update the Senator and the House in that regard next week.

Senators Phelan and Corrigan sought a debate on carers and the elderly. Senator Corrigan has asked for such a debate on many occasions in the last few weeks. This will be the closing debate in the House on Wednesday, 14 July, before the summer recess.

Senators Mullen, Ó Murchú, Ross and Hanafin expressed their strong views on free speech and defended the right of church leaders to express their views on the difficulties being experienced in various areas. I fully support this. Senator Ross also called for a free vote on the Civil Partnership Bill. Other Senators also spoke on the issue. The Bill will be brought before the House before the summer recess. I will inform Members next week when it will take place.

Senator Callely spoke about briefing documents relating to the health portfolio. To my knowledge, all briefing documents can be easily accessed in the Oireachtas Library and on the Internet. However, I will make inquiries about the matter the Senator has brought to my attention today.

Senator Fitzgerald has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate on the issues that led to recent gangland killings be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 30.

  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Burke, Paddy.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Cannon, Ciaran.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • McCarthy, Michael.
  • McFadden, Nicky.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • O’Reilly, Joe.
  • O’Toole, Joe.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Prendergast, Phil.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Regan, Eugene.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Butler, Larry.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carroll, James.
  • Carty, John.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Corrigan, Maria.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Dearey, Mark.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Feeney, Geraldine.
  • Glynn, Camillus.
  • Hanafin, John.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • McDonald, Lisa.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Ó Brolcháin, Niall.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Brien, Francis.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Jerry Buttimer and Maurice Cummins; Níl, Senators Niall Ó Brolcháin and Diarmuid Wilson.
Amendment declared lost.
Barr
Roinn