The Order of Business is No. 1, Private Members' business, Civil Registration (Amendment) Bill 2011 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and conclude not later than 1.45 p.m.
Order of Business
I am sure we all share the deep disappointment expressed by the Taoiseach yesterday following the slap in the face given to the Government and the Irish people by AIB and the Bank of Ireland. I have raised this issue every morning this week, and once again I want to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. We need to call the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State at the Department of Finance to come into this House and tell us if the Government is going to produce legislation that will enable the Government ensure that ECB rate cuts are passed on to mortgage holders in this country.
The public bailed out AIB and more than 95% of it is owned by the taxpayer. We also have a significant stake in Bank of Ireland.
It is 15%.
A rate of 15% is still significant.
We have a 98% stake in AIB.
There is no point in trotting out the promises made and what is in the programme for Government, because at this stage the programme for Government means nothing. The programme for Government states that any 0.25% rate increase would be subsumed by the banks. There has now been a decrease in rates, yet representatives of the two main banks, as well as ICS Building Society which is owned by the Bank of Ireland, yesterday met the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and our Taoiseach and flatly told them that they would not pass on those cuts.
(Interruptions).
I do not know whether Senator Coghlan interrupted me on behalf of the banks or what, because it seems——
I am trying to be helpful.
——that it is all very well for the Tánaiste to go on television, feign righteous indignation, beat his chest and say "My God, isn't this awful?," but what is he going to do about it? I am putting the House on notice that we will have a Bill next week which will give the Financial Regulator the powers to ensure that our financial institutions pass on rate cuts. Government representatives being disappointed and angry means nothing to mortgage holders who are being screwed by the banks. The people are under ferocious pressure, as we all know. I am proposing once again an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister or Minister of State at the Department of Finance come to the House and tell us what the Government is going to do. I am rather worried when I hear that the Taoiseach rang Mr. Elderfield, the Financial Regulator, to ask him what he thought about it and what he needed. I will tell the Taoiseach what we need. We need the Government to do something about this. We need the Government to live up to the promises it made. We can forget about the fact that it said it would increase mortgage interest relief to 30% and give another €170 a month to people who are already under ferocious pressure. It did not do that, but it was an election promise and I do not believe much of what was said at that time. Let us bring the Minister to the House today and find out what is going to happen. By way of advice from the last Government, one cannot trust AIB as far as one can throw it. One cannot trust a word it says. It is one of the most political organisations in this country and it will try to undermine the Government. The Government should not allow it to do that.
We have that experience.
The problem is that this is not the only time this will happen. There are other rate cuts on the way, as flagged by Mr. Draghi. Is it to be the case that every time this happens we will be at the beck and call of the banks, asking whether Ulster Bank is passing it on, whether KBC is passing it on and, in particular, whether AIB and Bank of Ireland are passing it on? We need legislation to empower the Financial Regulator to deal with this. I do not think the Taoiseach should be ringing the regulator and asking him what he thinks and what the Government should do. I know what we need to do, as do all of us. The dogs on the street know what we need to do.
We will produce a Bill next week and I hope the Leader will allow time next week for us to bring it before the House. We will be open to amendments to it and to a full discussion. Let us allow time to discuss the Bill and let the people see that we will act on this issue. We will not just beat our chests and say we are angry about it.
We were all disappointed — that is an extreme understatement — at the decision of AIB and Bank of Ireland not to pass on the rate cuts. Their decision has made the move towards legislation much more likely. The words of the Tánaiste on "Six One News" last night were clear.
What?
It is not a case of simply ringing the Financial Regulator for his view.
What did he say?
Senator Bacik to continue, without interruption.
If Senator O'Brien would let me speak on this——
Tell me what he said.
Senator Bacik to continue, without interruption.
Go on.
He is looking for some indication.
Looking for what? What is he looking for?
Can I say——
Senator Bacik to continue, without interruption.
The Tánaiste made it clear yesterday that the Government has asked the Financial Regulator what further powers he needs. When he comes back and tells us what powers he needs——
The power to make sure the banks pass on the rate cuts. Let us be straight about it.
——the Government will then be in a position to legislate to provide for those powers. The banks have made this necessary.
A three-line amendment to existing legislation would do it. We will have it next week.
Senator Bacik to continue, without interruption.
As I said before, I am rather apprehensive about Fianna Fáil's rush to legislation on banks and financial services.
For God's sake.
It is very hard——
What about mortgage holders? The Government has done nothing in nine months. Nothing. It has broken every promise.
Senator O'Brien had his opportunity to speak for three minutes. Senator Bacik to continue, without interruption.
I did not interrupt Senator O'Brien. It is outrageous that the banks are not passing on interest rate cuts to their customers.
It is outrageous.
Many of us here are mortgage holders——
Me too.
——and we appreciate, personally and on behalf of friends and family, the hardship people are facing.
Do something about it.
We want to do something about it.
What is the Government going to do? When is it going to produce legislation?
Senator Bacik to continue, without interruption, please.
We have made very clear to the banks——
When is the Government going to introduce the legislation?
——what we will be doing.
When is it going to introduce the legislation?
That has been set out very clearly.
When will the Minister for Finance introduce the legislation? Let him come to the House today and tell us.
Senator Bacik has the floor.
The Government's position——
Tell us.
The Government's position is set out very clearly. The banks cannot be allowed to get away with this.
They have got away with it. They slapped the Government in the face yesterday. They got away with it.
Senator O'Brien, please allow Senator Bacik to conclude.
It is hard to take righteous indignation from the other side of the House on this issue——
For God's sake.
——and it is hard for mortgage holders, who are pressed——
Is it? Yes.
——oppressed, not just by——
I know that. They are oppressed by the Government's inaction——
Senators, please do not engage in banter across the floor.
——and all the promises it made and has broken already.
Please address the Chair.
Fourteen years of Fianna Fáil government have led us to the state we are in.
The Senator keeps going back to that. She should deal with the reality of the situation. She is in government now.
A Leas-Chathaoirligh, can I——
Senator O'Brien, please, you had your opportunity.
The Government is supposed to govern. That is what it is supposed to do, but it is not doing so.
Let Senator Bacik conclude.
A Leas-Chathaoirligh, I cannot make a contribution if I am continually interrupted.
I also wish to renew calls for a debate with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. We are doing our best to bring him to the House to speak on a number of issues, but in particular, all of us are very concerned at this morning's news about Gaza and the position of the 14 Irish citizens who were on the MV Saoirse. Yesterday, the Leader of the House, Senator Cummins, was able to update all Members with the latest information from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, which was that flights with British Airways had been booked for seven Irish citizens to leave Israel this morning. It is of immense concern that those seven Irish citizens were not in fact on that flight this morning as had been expected.
It has been reported that a protest has been lodged with Israel by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade about the failure of the seven citizens to board the flight. I have seen the news from the shore team that the seven were prevented by Israeli armed guards from boarding the flight. We all know their families are in great distress. It is a matter of immense concern. I spoke directly to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade this morning to seek an update and express our concern, not on behalf of any particular party but on behalf of everyone in the House. I was told the Department hoped the first seven would be able to fly home later today. The Department is engaging in urgent and intense contacts with the Israeli authorities to ensure they can be flown home. The other seven are booked on a flight tomorrow morning. It is to be hoped that all 14 will be home by tomorrow. Pressure on the Israeli authorities is ongoing.
The Senator needs to talk to some of her colleagues. I do not know whether she listened to some of their comments yesterday.
Senator Bacik to continue, without interruption.
We do need a debate on the situation in Gaza. Different views were expressed in the House yesterday, but the immediate issue is the return of the 14 Irish citizens, who include people from different political traditions in this country.
N'fheadar cé atá ag íoc as an turas eitleáin.
I wish to raise the issue of the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund. There is a vote in the European Parliament next week about this funding. Nearly 6,000 Irish construction workers are entitled to benefit from this, and we have a time limit of seven months in which to make sure all the paperwork is in order and draw down the funding. The total fund will be €55 million and it is for the purpose of retraining. As there has been a major decrease in the number of jobs in the construction industry and it is unlikely that the number of jobs will increase in the immediate future, it is important that people are given the opportunity of retraining so they can enter other areas of work. It is important that we claim this funding.
We should have a debate in this House on the issue. When Dell closed in Limerick, we had the opportunity, as a result of amendments to the structure of the fund, to draw down funding, but some of that money had to be sent back. I do not want that to happen again. It is important that we have a debate to make sure all the t's are crossed and the i's dotted, in order that people who are out of work can retrain and move into other areas of employment. I ask for a debate in the House on this matter, which is being voted on next week in the European Parliament. As the funding will be available, it is up to us to make sure we fit all the criteria on this occasion.
Today at noon, adjustments will be announced in public capital spending by the Ministers concerned. The weakness of capital project appraisal in the Irish public sector has been a problem for 60 or 70 years. It has been addressed by people as diverse as Seán MacEntee, when he was Minister for Finance, and more recently Alan Dukes. If we do not carry out proper project appraisals which are independently analysed and published in advance in order that they can be assessed by the citizenry, we will end up with projects being promoted by agencies that stand to benefit directly from them, and being subject to the power of lobby groups, particularly the all-powerful construction industry, which was a major contributor to the difficulties in which the State finds itself.
What I suggest to the Leader is that he invite one of the Ministers involved — the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, or the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brian Hayes — to the House to discuss arrangements to put capital investment appraisal in Ireland on a sound economic footing, perhaps with a central office of project evaluation, so we can get away from the bankrupting of the country by interest groups pursuing projects that benefit them and not the economy as a whole, and the neglect of basic techniques such as cost-benefit analysis, which are not advanced economics. In view of what is happening today at noon, we need to set up a whole new system of capital investment appraisal. I invite the Leader to ask the Ministers concerned to present such a proposal to the House, where I am sure it will be broadly welcomed.
Senator O'Brien's frustration is totally understandable. He was probably speaking from experience because they were the people who instituted the blanket guarantee and had so much contact with them.
Fine Gael supported it.
Please address the Chair. Do you have a question, Senator Coghlan?
Naturally.
I do not encourage cross-Border banter.
All insults through the Chair, please.
My apologies. The Leas-Chathaoirleach is right and I subscribe to that view too. It is important to remember that trackers are fine, it is the variable and fixed rates that pose the difficulty. These are older loans and there are fewer of them. The Senator is wrong to say there was a blanket "No". This matter is under constant review. There will be further meetings in January. I am inclined to agree with Senator O'Brien in one respect. The State owns 98% or 99% of Allied Irish Bank but there are only two public interest directors on the boards of AIB and Bank of Ireland.
They should be sacked.
The State should have a clear majority on the board of the bank of which it owns 98% but that is another matter. We are aware the matter is under review and that there will be another meeting.
When?
It is ongoing on a daily basis. The matter is under constant review. We were assured of this again yesterday following the meetings.
Senator Bacik raised an important issue. I am pleased she was in contact with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade this morning on behalf of all of us. It appears that the Israelis have illegally arrested 14 of our citizens, seven of whom they continue to hold, I understand, in appalling conditions in one cell. They are not even allowed access to toilet facilities. It is a crazy situation in this day and age to treat the citizens of this sovereign State in such a fashion. I back the call to get the Minister in here as soon as he is available to discuss the matter. There are several other items to be discussed as well.
This morning I heard Senator Barrett making eminent sense on the radio, as ever. The capital projects were never properly assessed. The Senator is right. What has taken place is scandalous.
It is like NewERA. When will Fine Gael set it up?
Senator Coghlan to continue, without interruption, please.
There should be proper assessment. Interest groups were leading it. Senator O'Brien knows all about that because it is akin to the developer-led planning that Fianna Fáil favoured for so long and which led us into the property bubble and the calamity we are now in. I look forward to the support of the Leader in these matters.
It is a comedy of errors.
I raise the issue of the 14 citizens held captive by Israel. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to the effect that the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, should come to the House to discuss the situation. Yesterday, several Senators from the Labour Party and Fine Gael asked what was the big deal. The big deal is that 14 Irish citizens were on a humanitarian aid mission, trying to bring medicines to women, children and men suffering in Gaza. They are suffering because of a blockade which is immoral and illegal. It has created a humanitarian crisis in the city of Gaza. Israel is trying to control every aspect of the lives of the Palestinian people. They have effectively closed and shut off Gaza from the rest of the world and they are imposing a form of collective punishment on the people of Gaza and Palestine because of the way those citizens voted in an election. It is appalling.
Two of my party colleagues from Waterford, who are also colleagues of the Leader of the House and who are from his city, are among those being detained. Councillor Pat Fitzgerald from County Waterford was one of those aboard the plane this morning. His wife was in contact with me to say that they were not allowed to board the aeroplane. They were asked again to sign deportation papers and in signing these deportation papers they were being asked to admit that they committed a crime and had entered Israel illegally. They were taken from their ship forcibly and we now know they were treated appallingly. Water cannons were used on the Irish citizens on that ship. They were strip searched and filmed naked. This has happened to 14 Irish citizens. Their families were informed yesterday and the Leader was informed in good faith by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade that these citizens were to be put on airplanes today and brought back to Ireland.
I cannot allow a debate on the matter now.
They were refused at gunpoint by a rogue state, which is how I describe Israel. Those involved have prevented Irish citizens from coming back to this country. There is a need for the Tánaiste to get involved at this stage. I commend the work of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Irish consular services. They have provided outstanding support for these 14 citizens but it is time for the Tánaiste to intervene directly and to contact his counterpart in Israel to ensure these 14 Irish citizens are returned home as quickly as possible. Their captivity should come to an end.
Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?
I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to the effect that the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade should attend the House today to discuss the deplorable and disgraceful way in which Irish citizens are being treated by Israel.
I join the call for discussions with the Tánaiste following the appalling news we heard this morning that seven of our citizens were arrested at the airport and held in detention. This is totally unacceptable and it must be addressed by the Tánaiste and the Israeli ambassador.
I wish to raise an issue that has received a good deal of coverage in the newspapers, that is, the problem of obesity among young people. Some of the statistics published this morning indicate that many parents will outlive their children, a cause of great concern for many of us. The implications for families and the financial implications for the health service in future demand that we should take this matter seriously and hold a discussion in the House. We must examine the issues of foods, healthy options provided in schools and physical activity or the lack of it in schools and out of school hours. It is a major issue which we must face up to as a nation. Will the Leader facilitate a debate with the relevant Minister or Ministers in the House so that this issue, which is of grave concern to many people, can be addressed in a meaningful way and is given the prominence it deserves? It should be highlighted to make people, including families and children, aware of what is a major issue in our society.
We have heard a good deal about fairly local aspects of the financial situation but I contend there is a more serious situation, that is, the general one. Sofar, it appears no one has mentioned the fact that Italian bonds are at more than 7% and we face the prospect of a total meltdown in Europe. There is complete confusion and atotal lack of leadership. Frau Merkel and Mr. Sarkozy appear to project a two-speed Europeas part of which, after all our pain and suffering, we might be cast out into a second class position.
Let us consider the historical parallels with the way in which Germany was formed out of small principalities. There is an inexorable centrifugal force pushing Europe towards either much greater fiscal and political union on the one hand or disintegration on the other. These are the two stark prospects. I believe it is inevitable that we will go in the direction of greater fiscal and political union but for this to take place there must be proper discussion beforehand, involving parliaments, to ensure real, democratic principles are enshrined in this new Europe and that the major parties do not take control over all the levers of power. The real problem is that leaders all over Europe, including in this country, have traditionally put the interests of the establishment and the preservation of the system above the welfare of the people. In the new Europe we must have the welfare of the people put as the primary concern of good government.
I support the remarks of Senator Bacik and Senator Cullinane about the situation in Israel. It is extraordinary and Kafkaesque. People on an errand of mercy on the high seas are hijacked, brought forcibly to a country whose regime is hostile to their intent and then an attempt is made to get them to sign papers saying that they illegally entered. The illegality is on the part of those who forced them into the country in the first place. I am glad that strong diplomatic representations are being made and I am glad that our embassy staff are at Ben Gurion International Airport. I hope this matter will be resolved speedily.
I join other speakers in regard to the situation in Gaza. It is very serious. I am glad to hear Senator Bacik say the Tánaiste is taking the matter very seriously. I do not know whether he should go over there——
It is a very good idea.
——because the situation is beyond serious. I have not been as well appraised on this as I should be because I have been busy. I found the comments of Senator Cullinane this morning shocking. The situation has to be dealt with today. There is nothing else to be said on the matter.
On the obesity issue which my colleague raised, it relates to a larger societal problem, such as education on matters like this. I have raised the issue of underage drinking on numerous occasions and yesterday referred to the below cost selling of alcohol. The issues are all linked and we need to bring a debate of this nature into the House. I hope the Leader will facilitate such a debate as soon as possible.
I wish to refer to artists' rights. Legislation was introduced as a temporary measure by Deputy Micheál Martin in 2006, which was welcome, but a deadline of 1 January 2012 is approaching. It relates to how artists get money back and is a very worthwhile scheme. It may seem insignificant in the context of the other issues I raised but it is important. I would appreciate if the matter was brought to the attention of the Minister in order that we can discuss it seriously.
I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator O'Brien. I compliment him on pushing the issue every morning. He is highlighting the thousands of mortgage holders who are expecting and would relish the chance to havetheir interest rates reduced coming up to Christmas. It is up to the Government to address this issue.
We were disturbed by the comments of the Minister, Deputy Noonan, that AIB had a reasonable case. I know what he means. We do not have the same resources as the Government but our party is introducing a Bill next week to provide facilities for the Financial Regulator, Matthew Elderfield, to direct the banks to reduce interest rates in line with the ECB. I cannot see why the Government, with all its resources, would have to go cap in hand to the regulator to request him to ask the Government to do something about the matter.
Like Senator Bacik, I was in contact with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade this morning in regard to the 14 people in Gaza. The position is extremely serious. I agree with Senator Noone that we should ask the Tánaiste to go to Israel. The Government jet and other facilities are available. I appeal for the Taoiseach and the Minister for Defence, Deputy Shatter, to use their influence with the Israeli Government to ensure our people are released. I cannot understand why we cannot send our jet. When Israelis were taken hostage the Israeli Government sent in an airplane and took them out. It is about time we took strong action. We have not even called in the ambassador. We are afraid of Israel.
Is the Senator seeking a debate on the matter?
I have asked for the Tánaiste to attend the House to discuss the issue. The situation is no longer reasonable. The facilities are available to us as an independent state. We can expel the ambassador but it is better to use diplomatic missions. The Tánaiste should fly to Tel Aviv and bring our 14 honourable and brave people home. They are being treated in an abominable fashion by the Israeli Government.
Prior to the 2009 nursing homes Act there were three types of nursing homes, public, private and voluntary. In the Act the voluntary sector was included with the private sector. In my constituency a community voluntary hospital is being included with the private sector, something which is happening all over the country.
The funding provided by the NTPF for a public bed is approximately €1,100 and is €750 for a private bed which, through stealth, makes such facilities no longer viable. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, to appear before the House to explain why this happened and to rectify the matter. Otherwise, community voluntary hospitals which are providing community beds for elderly people will be closed.
Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom tacú leis an leasú ar Riar na hOibre atá molta ag mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir David Cullinane, maidir le ceist na Palaistíne agus na saoránaigh Éireannacha atá coinnithe in Iosrael.
I would also like to note my disappointment at yesterday's debate on the community and voluntary sector. It was a good debate but Sinn Féin was limited to two minutes of speaking time which was very disappointing because many other issues needed to be raised which we did not get a chance to discuss. The House adjourned at 3.30 p.m. yesterday and there was no debate for the rest of the afternoon. Sinn Féin has made recommendations to all of the party leaders and Whips about the allocation of time during debates. It has been indicated to us that a number of different groups are willing to take them on board and we hope the rest of the groups will also take them on board as constructive ideas.
I note traffic in Galway is not a national matter for the Leader of the House. However, capital projects were discussed today, including the Galway city outer bypass which is under the remit of the Department, as is the western rail corridor. Traffic in Galway is a national issue. If the two projects to which I referred are affected by today's announcement on the cutbacks in capital spending I will look for a debate on the matter.
An cheist is mó gur mhaith liom a árdú ar maidin inniu ná seo. Inné fuair mé dhá thuarisc ó Phobal maidir leis an gcomhlacht Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta, MFG. Tá MFG luaite agam roinnt mhaith uaireanta sa Teach seo agus tá mé ag iarraidh an dá thuairisc seo le fada. Tuairiscí iad ar an gcomhlacht seo a d'imigh isteach i leachtú an mhí seo caite. Tá 320 post caillte ins an eagraíocht MFG. Léiríonn an dá thuairisc seo go raibh ceisteanna tromchúiseacha maidir le rialú corporáideach, le bainistiú, le stiúiriú, le ról Phobail agus le ról na Roinne.
Tá mé ag lorg fiosriúcháin neamhspleách agus tá mé ag iarraidh go dtiocfadh an tAire Comhshaoil, Oidhreachta agus Rialtais Áitiúil, an Teachta Phil Hogan, isteach sa Teach le míniú dúinn céard atá sé chun a dhéanamh maidir le céard a tharla in MFG. Níl sé sách maith. Cuireann an easpa rialacháin a tharla i gcás MFG i gcuimhne dom an easpa rialacháin a bhí ins na bainc. Ligeadh don chomhlacht seo imeacht le sruth agus ní raibh duine ar bith sásta gníomhú. Fiú suas go dtí Mí Meán Fhómhair seo caite, mar a deirtear i dtuairisc Lazar, d'fhéadfaí an comhlacht seo a thartháil, ach níor tharla sin. Tá 320 post imithe. Tá daoine fágtha ar an dole a bhfuil clanna le tógáil acu agus billí le n-íoc acu agus tá creidiúnaithe nach bhfuil ag fáil a gcuid airgid. Níl sé maith go leor. Ba cheart go ndéanfaí fiosrúchán neamhspleách. Ba mhaith liom go dtiocfadh an tAire Comhshaoil, Oidhreachta agus Rialtais Aitiúil isteach lena rá linn céard atá sé chun a dhéanamh faoi seo.
I support the call for a debate on traffic in Galway. It is a national issue of overriding public interest. There is evidence to show one can travel more quickly to Dublin than from one side of Galway city to the other. That is how horrendous the traffic problem is.
I congratulate President McAleese on her final day in office and compliment her husband, Senator Martin McAleese, for journeying with her for the country for the past 14 years. I compliment her for opening the new wing of the Back Lane Hostel on her final day in office. It is a mark of her presidency that she has been there for communities and she continues in that vein today.
I express anger at the arrogance of the banks as they continue to refuse to pass on the interest rate cut. I have stood in this House and have voted to capitalise these banks; why are they not showing us the same honesty and decency by passing on the rate to us? Eight weeks ago I received a letter from Ulster Bank — I appreciate it is not within the guarantee — stating that my interest rate was increasing by 0.25%. I paid it. When the interest rate is coming down I expect they will do the same for me. I wish to ask the Leader three questions.
The Senator might support the amendment to the Order of Business.
Senator Healy Eames to continue, without interruption, please.
Please allow me to speak. I know how annoyed and disappointed the Taoiseach is with the arrogance of the banks. I wish to ask a few questions. Can we give the financial regulator extra powers to force the banks? Can we use our shareholdings in the banks under our remit to force the interest rate cut through? People telephoned me this morning and last night to say they will protest against these cuts by cancelling their direct debits and setting up standing orders to pay for the lesser amount. That is what we are talking about here. That is how horrendous this is and I will not stand for it. I want to see all of us work together to ensure all the banks pass on this interest rate cut——
It does not save money.
——and every interest cut that comes down the line from the ECB for the sake of the people.
Is the Senator seeking a debate?
It was terribly embarrassing and pathetic to witness the sheer political impotence of the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste in response to the arrogance of the bankers last night. All right-thinking people in the country are embarrassed for our leaders and something needs to be done about it urgently. I join our leader, Senator Darragh O'Brien, in asking the Leader to make time available to debate the Fianna Fáil motion next week which will enable and empower the regulator to deal with this issue in a way which clearly our politicians have failed to do so far.
There has been a fair amount of talk about capital spending and revisionism. I accept Senator Seán D. Barrett's bona fides in this. I was alarmed at the alacrity with which my great friend and colleague, Senator Paul Coghlan, agreed with him. It bodes ill for people who——
The Senator has agreed with him for quite a while on these matters.
——voted for major projects all over the country which were just getting over the line and which, clearly, will be shafted today. Specifically in regard to that issue, I was concerned to read a statement by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, in today's issue of The Irish Times in which he took a machine gun to infrastructure along the entire west coast in his extraordinary review of the functions and status of our regional airports. The Minister has been in the House, and is a good attender here, and we have had debates with him about the regional airports but, at no time, did he lead us to understand he had so little regard for the airports in Donegal, Sligo right down along the coast to Waterford. I want to make it clear to the Minister, and I ask the Leader to convey to him, that the regional airports and the major infrastructures which the previous Government put in place, allowed those in the west to connect to Dublin in three hours and brought real life into rural communities. It is possible that a Dublin-based Minister does not understand and has not the same perspective as we have on this issue in rural areas. I warn him, particularly, to keep his beady eye off Kerry Airport, which is making a profit.
We are all right.
We have substantial funds in the bank and have a credit balance.
What about Galway?
I cannot speak for Galway and other places but I can speak for Kerry and, if it is only breaking even, the amount of amount of additional tourism revenues it brings to the entire south-west region must be considered. Instead of knocking what was achieved for the rural areas by Fianna Fáil, the Minister should be saving the Cork-Swansea service, on which he is silent. We are all battling at local level to keep the service in operation. I have not heard a word from the Minister, I do not see his support and we do not see any money on the table. He is saying, more or less, that what has been achieved in rural Ireland was null and void. I shudder to think what will be announced this afternoon if that is the thinking that prevails in government.
While I agree with all that has been said about the banks I wish to raise a health issue, that is, to reduce human exposure to lead. We all know about lead in drinking water and how, in the 1950s, when it was first brought to attention that regulations were introduced providing that the lead content should not exceed 25 mg per litre. It is assumed that people get 50% of the lead they consume from water. I wish to draw attention to research carried out recently by the HSE public analyst's laboratory in the western region on chemicals contained in cosmetic products. The subsequent HSE laboratory annual report that followed from this research revealed that out of 31 samples tested, 16 breached the statutory 0.2% formaldehyde limit and some had levels as high as 9.5%. This is a carcinogenic which can cause cancer if applied to the skin or inhaled over a long period. The men across the House may not use cosmetics but they do some of the time.
Do not be so sure.
Women do and I am standing here to say this is a public health concern. It is a matter of huge concern. We have had lead banned in paints, lead banned in plumbing and pipes in the 1970s——
Is the Senator asking for a debate?
People will ask what I am on about if I do not explain where I am coming from. In the 1980s lead was banned from petrol. Women still wear make-up and to this day nothing has been done in Europe, except in Germany where it was regulated. I ask that the Minister come into the House and say that he recommends that we follow the Germans who have set a limit of 20 mg for lead and 5 mg for cadmium, which is another brand of toxic metal also contained in make-up and is carcinogenic. I am aware the argument is that over a long period, if small elements of lead are found in products, it is not too damaging and that the body does not absorb it. Even if there is not an EU law in this area, I ask the Minister to follow the German line. We know the cosmetic industry is huge and we must ensure that people are educated about the products they use and what is in them and choose the products withut harmful ingredients. I suggest we follow Germany and set a limit for reducing the lead level and cadmium in products.
The point is well made.
I am calling for a debate or whatever it takes. We need not debate the issue if the Minister can say he will look it and reduce the lead levels and follow Germany.
It is regrettable that at this stage, six months into the term of this Seanad, we have not yet had a debate — I ask the Leader to schedule one — with the Taoiseach on what is probably the most fundamental issue facing the Seanad, which is its own future, the existential crisis of a body which, according to stated pre-election Government policy, is to be abolished. I was reminded of this parenthetically last night when I attended the wonderful event that Dublin City University sponsored in association with its 21st anniversary, namely, its access programme. This is a programme in which it has used a mixture of funding sources, mainly philanthropic donations, to provide financial and educational support to people from underprivileged areas who would not have had the opportunity for third level education otherwise, a programme which has benefited approximately 1,000 students over the years, which has been upgraded to take approximately 135 and will be increased next year. At a time when our country is facing substantial and systemic economic hardships and our citizens are facing curtailment of many of the opportunities which may have been available to them — I wish to praise DCU for this — and I note, in passing, that this large university has no university representation in the Seanad and that the university representation in the Seanad is anachronistically based on those entities which existed at the time of the foundation of the current Constitution. It is critical in considering the future of the Seanad that we address the question of broader Oireachtas reform. I speak as both an insider and outsider in this regard. I have no party political axe to bear. Nor am I in the position of some colleagues, whom I am continually surprised to hear have constituencies. I am not aware that I have a constituency, other than the graduates who elected me. It is important that we analyse what went wrong in this country and where the blame lies. Among the three major arms of Government within Leinster House, namely, the Executive, the Dáil and the Seanad, who was most culpable and who least culpable? Who was most guilty of falling asleep at the tiller? Who let the catastrophe develop around their ears? For all its problems, the Seanad was probably the least culpable of those three entities. The fundamental reform required if the country is to be fixed, if we are to secure proper, competent, technically skilled government which is answerable to the people, is in respect of how we elect people to the more powerful House of Parliament, which is the Dáil. We should invite the Taoiseach to the Chamber to outline his intentions in regard to the future of this House and to indicate whether he is at all amenable to the notion of a broader debate on fundamental reform of our Constitution in order to ensure we have a Parliament more in tune with modern requirements. My great fear is that we should have a referendum which merely asks voters to answer "Yes" or "No" to the question of whether the Seanad should be abolished, to be held at the same time as a referendum to enshrine children's rights. Given the level of competence which has recently been shown in handling referenda, we may well end up abolishing children and enshrining the rights of the Seanad.
I agree with most of what Senator Crown said. However, those of us who come to this House through the local government route have constituencies to which we relate as a consequence of having served the communities in question.
The Senator has an eye on a constituency.
I take the point that, technically, we do not have constituencies, but people appreciate that we look after certain areas.
I call for a debate on fish discards, an issue which is the subject of discussion throughout Europe. Members may be aware of a campaign that was initiated in the United Kingdom by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, presenter of "River Cottage" on Channel 4. According to his research, up to 50% of all fish caught are thrown back into the water because of quotas or, in some cases, where the type of fish is not regarded as palatable. Mr. Fearnley-Whittingstall's campaign website, Hugh's Fish Fight, has to date secured more than 766,000 online signatures from people throughout Europe. I understand our Parliament is the only one in Europe whose representatives have not yet met Mr. Fearnley-Whittingstall in regard to his campaign. Having contacted the campaign, I am aware that he would be keen to speak to Deputies and Senators on this important issue.
Ireland is lagging behind somewhat because the campaign has not yet impacted on this side of the water, yet we are more affected by this issue than other European countries. I urge Members to log on to the Hugh's Fish Fight website and add their names to those of the almost 800,000 people who have logged on to date, including most MPs in the United Kingdom and parliamentarians throughout Europe. Will the Leader invite the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to the Chamber to outline future policy in regard to discards? If it is within our remit, I also urge that we invite Mr. Fearnley-Whittingstall to meet with us at some stage. He is willing to do so in his own time, within this or any other forum. He has an interesting story to tell.
It seems to have gone unnoticed that the Government did score one victory in its joust with banking executives yesterday, namely, that it managed to convey to the public, through the media, how deeply disappointed it is at the awkwardness of the banks. We have been told that the Government is "infuriated" by their attitude. It is good for a Government which is not doing what it should be doing to succeed in at least conveying to the public that it is on the side of the victims in this and is infuriated on their behalf. Senator Darragh O'Brien is right to put the challenge to the Government today. It is simply not good enough to ask the regulator whether he requires additional powers. The business of Government is to propose, before the Oireachtas, that the regulator be given certain powers and then to let the regulator use those powers if he sees fit. The response of the Government on this issue has been very weak.
Perhaps the reason the banking executives are able to eyeball the Government so successfully is that they are being paid so much more than the Government members they meet. It is easy to eyeball and talk down to people when one's salary is so much higher than theirs; it improves one's attitude and heightens one's sense of authority in a given situation. On that basis, some of us here would be better equipped to eyeball than others.
Does the Senator find it so?
It is noticeable and notable that the banking executives are of the view that their salaries should not be capped at even €500,000. In one case, a salary of €640,000 is being sought. It is clear where the power still lies in this country. The Government should, at the very least, facilitate the bringing forward of legislation at an early date to allow the regulator to do what he needs to do in regard to the passing on of interest rate cuts. Tá áthas orm gur árdaigh an Seanadóir Healy Eames gach a bhfuil déanta ag ár n-Uachtarán le blianta anuas. Tá éacht déanta ag Máire agus Máirtín Mac Giolla Íosa. Tréaslaím le Micheál D. Ó hUiginn agus guím áth mór air agus ar a bhean chéile ins na blianta atá romhainn. I recall an exchange some years ago where Ronald Reagan told Margaret Thatcher she was a hard act to follow, to which she replied, "You ain't seen nothing yet". Perhaps we have great days to look forward to under our new President. However, President Mary McAleese and her husband, Senator Martin McAleese, have done this country some service and they deserve all our thanks on her last day in office.
I endorse Senator Barrett's comments regarding public service contracts. However, I caution that to go down the road of looking exclusively at cost-benefit analyses for public works projects may not be the best approach, even though it may seem the most technically efficient. If, for example, a cost-benefit analysis had been carried out, as was proposed 15 years ago, on the Dublin-Sligo rail line, the conclusion would have been to shut it down. Not only has that not happened but, compliments to Iarnród Éireann, the service has been enhanced and new rolling stock provided. It is now a very successful service.
That is a fair point.
Therefore, I caution against an excessive focus on this aspect.
Perhaps Senator Barrett is informed by a symposium under way at the ESRI and reported on in The Irish Times yesterday. For those of the view that past Governments have somehow been incompetent in implementing public service contracts, it should be noted that problems in this regard are not unique to Ireland. Throughout Europe there is, on average, a cost overrun of between 25% and 40% on public service contracts. Will the Leader initiate a debate on the performance of State agencies involved in job creation? Speakers at the symposium have suggested that such agencies tend to fail not only in this country, but generally in their attempts to create sustainable jobs. Perhaps in the current climate, with 450,000 people out of work, it would be useful to have a debate encompassing Government policy in regard to retraining, the role of State training agencies, the changeover from FÁS to Solas and the creation of local bodies that will be aligned to the reconfigured VECs. There is much to discuss in terms of job creation in the medium to long term.
A number of Senators asked about interest rate reductions. Yesterday I was asked if the Minister would attend the House. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, has agreed to attend next Tuesday to discuss the issue. The Taoiseach on behalf of the economic management committee, spoke to the Financial Regulator. There is contact between the Government and the Financial Regulator on an ongoing basis, which is a far cry from what happened under the previous Government as regards the regulation of banks, etc. It is appalling that some of the banks are not passing on the interest rate reductions and we will discuss the matter in full on Tuesday.
Senator Bacik and many other Senators spoke about the situation in Gaza. Yesterday I gave an update in good faith on what was going on. It is totally unacceptable that Irish citizens are treated in such an appalling manner. I hope the matter will be rectified today. The welfare of Irish citizens is of paramount importance to the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. I hope the Irish citizens will arrive home safely today. The Tánaiste is doing everything possible to ensure that happens.
Senator Colm Burke spoke about the globalisation fund for the construction industry, which is a very important issue. It was used in the cases of the Dell and Waterford Crystal workers. It is essential that the globalisation fund be rolled out for the construction industry. While it is unfortunate that there have been such delays, I hope that matter will also be rectified.
Senators Barrett, Mooney and others spoke about the need for proper assessment for the capital programme. This morning I spoke to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, who indicated he was willing to attend the House. If he is not here next week, he will be here the following week to discuss the capital programme.
Senator Cullinane proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, which I do not propose to accept. I have outlined the situation in Gaza and hope that will be acceptable to the Senator.
Senators Mullins and Noone spoke about obesity in young children and the below-cost selling of alcohol. I will arrange a debate in early course on that important subject.
Senator Sheahan spoke about nursing homes and community and voluntary hospitals. He referred to residential homes as opposed to nursing homes. We will ask the Minister for Health to get back to the Senator on the matter.
Senator Ó Clochartaigh spoke about MFG. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, clearly outlined the position on Tuesday.
It has changed now that the reports have been published.
As Galway is one of our major cities I would have thought the planning authority there would have been able to deal with the problems. Clearly that is not the case but, as I said yesterday, I will raise the matter with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, to ensure there will be some liaison to bring the interested parties together.
I am sure we all join Senator Healy Eames in congratulating President McAleese on her excellent terms of office. We also congratulate our colleague, Senator McAleese. We wish them well. We also wish the President-elect, Mr. Michael D. Higgins, every success and look forward to his inauguration tomorrow.
Senator O'Sullivan spoke about the capital programme and regional airports. I can assure him that any airports that are profitable have nothing to fear.
Senator Keane spoke about the levels of lead and cadmium in products, a matter I will raise with the relevant Minister. If she has further details I will pass them on.
Senator Crown asked for a debate on the future of the Seanad. As he will know, the Government will establish a constitutional convention to undertake a wider review of the Constitution, which is a major element of key reform initiatives. That is where the future of the Seanad should and, I am sure, will be discussed. If it is necessary that we have future debates on that subject in this House, I will facilitate them. Senator Crown also spoke about constituencies. The university graduates are his constituents.
Senator Harte spoke about fish discards and so on. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, will attend the House soon. If the Senator wishes, it might be a good idea to invite the gentleman he mentioned to express his views in the AV room as I am sure many people would be interested in the subject.
Senator Mooney made a very important point about the various State agencies involved in job creation. Perhaps we could invite one of the relevant Ministers — a number of Ministers are involved.
That is my point.
As there is a link, I do not know whom we should invite. It is a subject we should debate.
Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate on the need for legislation to ensure that the banks and lending institutions pass on any reduction in interest rates to their customers be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
It is.
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 29.
Tá
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Crown, John.
- Cullinane, David.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Mac Conghail, Fiach.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullen, Rónán.
- Norris, David.
- Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Sullivan, Ned.
- Power, Averil.
- White, Mary M.
Níl
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Clune, Deirdre.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D’Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Harte, Jimmy.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Heffernan, James.
- Henry, Imelda.
- Higgins, Lorraine.
- Keane, Cáit.
- Kelly, John.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Moran, Mary.
- Mulcahy, Tony.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O’Keeffe, Susan.
- O’Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Mary M. White; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.
Amendment declared lost.
I wish to inform the House that as Senator Ned O'Sullivan voted twice inadvertently——
Old habits die hard.
An old Fianna Fáil tradition.
——the result of the division as shown on the display board has been amended with the agreement of the Tellers for both sides.
Well done, Ned.
Senator Cullinane has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate on the treatment of Irish citizens by the Israeli authorities be taken today". Is the amendment being pressed?
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 29.
Tá
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Cullinane, David.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Mac Conghail, Fiach.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullen, Rónán.
- Norris, David.
- Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
- O’Brien, Darragh.
- O’Sullivan, Ned.
- Power, Averil.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- White, Mary M.
Níl
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Clune, Deirdre.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Crown, John.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D’Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Harte, Jimmy.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Heffernan, James.
- Henry, Imelda.
- Higgins, Lorraine.
- Keane, Cáit.
- Kelly, John.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Moran, Mary.
- Mulcahy, Tony.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O’Keeffe, Susan.
- O’Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
Tellers: Tá, Senators David Cullinane and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 34; Níl, 9.
Tá
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Clune, Deirdre.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Crown, John.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D’Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Harte, Jimmy.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Heffernan, James.
- Henry, Imelda.
- Higgins, Lorraine.
- Keane, Cáit.
- Kelly, John.
- Mac Conghail, Fiach.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Moran, Mary.
- Mulcahy, Tony.
- Mullen, Rónán.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Noone, Catherine.
- Norris, David.
- O’Keeffe, Susan.
- O’Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
Níl
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Cullinane, David.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
- O’Brien, Darragh.
- O’Sullivan, Ned.
- Power, Averil.
- White, Mary M.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe; Níl, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Mary M. White.
Question declared carried.
I acknowledge the presence in the Visitors Gallery of Mr. Paddy Harte, former Deputy and Minister of State, and his wife. They are very welcome to the House.