Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed)

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

This amendment relates to the advisory notice. We propose a change in the Act by a regulation. This notice will be a notification to water services authorities that a treatment system is causing or is likely to cause a risk to human health or to the environment. The authority must issue an advisory notice within 21 days. I assume the inspector would make a visit prior to the notice being issued. The advisory notice would set out in detail the considerations for the particular treatment system and whether it posed a threat to human health or to the environment. The notice will direct the owner to take the necessary remedial actions and will specify a timeframe for completion of those measures.

The Bill does not outline the timeframe. For example, in France in 2007 a similar system was introduced to register septic tanks but the timeframe permitted for owners was four or five years during which they were to bring their septic tanks up to standard. It may be unfair to make this comparison given that France is a more urbanised country and there are thousands of hectares of unoccupied land while our countryside is well populated.

We have an issue with the advisory notice and the timeframe. These should be discussed by the Oireachtas prior to the enactment of the Bill. It is wrong to criminalise people or to make non-compliance with the advisory notice an offence. There are many reasons for non-compliance. People will be unable to comply with the advisory notice if substantial works are required to upgrade septic tanks to the necessary standard. According to the Department's own financial breakdown accompanying the Bill, a septic tank would cost approximately €4,000 and more advanced work could increase the cost up to €17,000 when installation of the system is taken into consideration. How is it reasonable to expect someone to carry out such work without the assistance of a retrofitting grants scheme?

The advisory notice and the work agenda is set out along with a timeframe for the work to be completed and it is to be compulsory for local authorities to issue the notice within 21 days of a notification from the agency. This needs to be discussed further. Instead of signing the timeframe under regulation, the Minister should allow for a discussion in this House and more specific details about the advisory notice should be provided. We will press a further amendment to provide that non-compliance with an advisory notice should not constitute an offence under the Bill, given that many people are struggling financially and they will not be able to meet the rigid specifications under this legislation.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

I am only introducing what is standard practice in legislation. In addition, all matters relating to regulations are laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and each House has an opportunity to accept or reject them within 21 days.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I know there was a regulation. A very odd process was adopted for a regulation that was signed by the two Ministers, Deputies Hogan and Coveney, on 8 September 2011, whereby the wetlands directive was signed into regulation.

An Cathaoirleach

That has nothing to do with this amendment.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

That is an example where public consultation began afterwards. That is putting the cart before the horse.

We are pressing the amendment. We believe it is only right and proper that the specifics in regard to this will be discussed before the Oireachtas. A situation cannot be left wide open and open-ended regarding the signing of a regulation. I do not point the finger in particular at the Minister, Deputy Hogan. Any Minister of the day is able to sign regulations and bring in new dates or new criteria. In this instance it was dates relating to the advisory notice and the manner in which the advisory notice in question might lead to an offence later on by an individual who cannot meet the demand of the price.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Houses will have an opportunity to accept or reject it.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendment No. 4 is out of order because the subject matter is outside the scope of the Bill.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

I would like it to be noted that I do not agree with the Chair's ruling.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. That is no problem.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 4, line 37, after "systems')" to insert "apart from county Cavan".

I am suggesting an amendment to the proposed new section 70B(1), which provides that "each water services authority shall establish and maintain a register of domestic waste water treatment systems situated within its functional area". In general, we have no problem with that. If the register system is to operate effectively, a system of registration will be needed at local level. I will not go into the technical detail of the judgment of the European Court of Justice in the case of Commission of the European Communities v. Ireland, other than to say the court found that Ireland, with the exception of County Cavan, was not in compliance with the 1975 directive, as amended in 1991. The judgment set out the various sections with which Ireland was failing to comply, namely, sections 4 and 8.

The point we are trying to make is that the European Commission has recognised that Cavan County Council is complying with the directive as a result of a by-law it adopted in 2004. The by-law was based on the 1996 guidelines of the Environmental Protection Agency. Can the Minister clarify if the same guidelines will be adopted for this legislation? As a result of the action taken by Cavan County Council in 2004, some 25% of septic tanks in the county were found not to meet the standard. The average cost of upgrading the one in four tanks that did not meet the Cavan standards, which were based on the 1996 Environmental Protection Agency guidelines, was approximately €2,500. I guarantee the House that if we adopt the 2009-10 Environmental Protection Agency guidelines, significantly more than 25% of septic tanks will not meet the standard. My learned colleague from County Cavan, Senator Wilson, will be able to speak in much more detail about the approach that was adopted in his county and was later found to meet the standards used by the European Court of Justice in its judgment. Why should a county that meets the requirements of the judgment of the European Court of Justice, and faces no fines as a result, be covered under this legislation? Why should further financial burdens be placed on people who have upgraded their septic tanks since 2004?

It is relevant to mention that when the European Court of Justice ruled on the case that was taken by the European Commission against Ireland, it pointed out that the introduction of a registration system is required. That is what the Minister is trying to achieve in this section. It also pointed out that a desludging programme would be relevant under Article 12 of the European directive. Therefore, we are proposing that each septic tank should be eligible for free desludging each year, in line with Article 12 of the 1975 directive. Such a programme should be put in place before we proceed further, even if it would have cost implications. Some of our amendments were ruled out of order because of the cost implications associated with them. It would be better to try to correct deficiencies in septic tanks by putting in place a desludging programme. The Environmental Protection Agency recognises that septic tanks that are desludged on a periodic basis work more effectively. They operate more effectively if the sludge is taken from the top of the tank. Would that not be considered before legislation is passed to force people to bring tanks up to standard?

Perhaps the Minister can advise the House whether he is willing to accept this amendment. Can he clarify whether Cavan County Council is meeting the current standards as we speak? Will the standards the Minister is proposing to introduce by regulation under this legislation be the same as those being applied by Cavan County Council? Does the Minister intend to adopt the only other guidelines he can adopt, which are the 2009-10 Environmental Protection Agency guidelines? Will every one of the 475,000 septic tanks in this country be dealt with retrospectively under those guidelines? I am a little confused about whether this will be implemented retrospectively. This Bill suggests that it will. If that is the case, the implication is that every septic tank in the country will have to meet today's standards. If I am correct, the ruling of the European Court of Justice means that water courses from all septic tanks should be kept clean from today onwards. If that objective is to be achieved, then it would——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator could talk about this on the section. This amendment is specific, however.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I am referring to the services authority, the register of domestic wastewater treatment systems and whether Cavan met the directive's standards. The 1996 guidelines set by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, would satisfy the European Court of Justice. It actually referred to this arrangement in its ruling. It would also be less of a financial burden on the taxpayer if a grants scheme were introduced to meet upgrade costs.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh.

Senator Denis Landy

Senator Wilson, the eminent expert.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

I thank Senator Landy for that but he should reserve his judgment until after my contribution.

As Senator Ó Domhnaill stated, Cavan was exempted from the European Court of Justice ruling. The court cited the example of Cavan County Council which introduced by-laws in 2004 on water pollution to implement a complete system of management of septic tanks and individual wastewater treatment systems, both old and new. The by-laws include a requirement that every wastewater treatment system comply with the EPA manual on treatment systems for single houses and that inspections be carried out at least every seven years. The Commission, in taking the case against Ireland, had conceded that these by-laws in Cavan had constituted an adequate legal mechanism for complying with the directive and, therefore, excluded Cavan as part of the subject matter of the legal action.

The Minister will be aware of these by-laws. I will not go through them in detail, line by line, unless he wishes me to do so.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Please do.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

The Cavan County Council by-laws state that it is prohibited to discharge any wastewater or effluent from any on-site wastewater treatment or disposal system to any ditch, stream, pond, lake, watercourse, drain, surface water or, where discharge exceeds five cu. m in any 24-hour period, into groundwater, other than in accordance with a valid discharge licence. County Cavan has plenty of lakes and rivers and these by-laws have been very effective in protecting them. As Senator Ó Domhnaill outlined, initially 25% of septic tanks inspected failed. The by-laws stated, "A person who contravenes a provision of these by-laws shall be guilty of an offence pursuant to section 40 of the Local Government Act 1994", making them liable on summary conviction of a fine of up to €1,270. Under the 2010 Fines Act, this fine will become a class C fine. Once that Act commences, the fine on summary conviction will be €2,500. That is half the maximum fine proposed by the Minister in this Bill.

Why does the Minister not compel each local authority to introduce similar by-laws instead of introducing this legislation? It would be a more sensible approach and achieve what is required under the ruling without the heavy-handed approach this Bill will visit on the 475,000 septic tank owners and 1.2 million people covered by it.

While Cavan is unique in many respects and is one of the finest counties of the 32 and certainly of the 26 over which the Minister has jurisdiction, it is only fair the other 25 counties have the opportunity to introduce their own by-laws. County Cavan has already proved this can be successfully done. I respectfully request the Minister takes this amendment into consideration.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I do not know as much about County Cavan and its by-laws as Senator Wilson does, but it does sound peculiar that in this relatively recent decision of the European Court of Justice, Cavan was found not to be in breach of the directive. Europe has given a gold star to Cavan for implementing its by-laws in 1994. I envy the council and its public representatives for going down that road then. Obviously, other councils should have done so.

The kernel of this issue is which particular guidelines will be followed in the legislation. Three sets of criteria can be applied to this Bill, the EPA guidelines from 2009 and 2004 and the Cavan County Council by-laws. If the latter is a good benchmark for implementing the directive, why then in these difficult times should the Department go the extra mile to be best boys in the class rather than comply with the Cavan guidelines from 15 years ago?

My main concern is we are somewhat in the dark as to which criteria will apply with this legislation. The information I received from the EPA is that it will insist on the most modern, technical and up-to-date criteria available to it. These will be far more stringent than the ones used successfully in Cavan. They will also mean costly upgrades of septic tanks and wastewater systems for property owners.

The criteria to be used must be declared now. The criteria successfully used in Cavan, which comply with the EU directive, are a good benchmark and should be adopted by other local authorities. Under the Minister's proposals, maximum fines stand at €5,000 whereas under the Cavan by-laws, the maximum fine is €2,500. If the EPA criteria are used — I fear they will be — then the bar will have been raised for over 400,000 septic tank owners and will be much higher than the one contained in the Cavan County Council by-laws. It would be refreshing if the Minister declared his hand now and confirmed the 2009 EPA guidelines will be the template for this legislation. The most recent EPA guidelines will be the template for the new proposals. If that is the case, the bar will be considerably higher. People are worried about how much this will cost and where the tanks will go, etc. It is a valid argument. Perhaps it is correct to go down that road and use the most efficient and up to date guidelines.

The Minister should refer to the amendment. Is the amendment being pressed?

Deputy Phil Hogan

I challenge Senator Ó Domhnaill to press the amendment.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

In due course.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Cavan County Council was exempt from the European Court of Justice ruling.

What we have been presented with is ridiculous. Senator Wilson was described earlier as the expert on the Cavan model. It is obvious that the Cavan model should be consigned to one of the lakes in that county because it is absolutely disastrous for the people who live there. In his expert description and analysis of the scheme, Senator Wilson neglected to mention the most important element, namely, the charge imposed on the people of Cavan. Earlier, I described the Senator as an eminent expert. When he spoke, we expected that he would provide us with full details of the scheme. However, he did not do so. As a result, his entire argument is flawed and it will be extremely difficult to sit here for another three or four hours and listen to the debate on later amendments.

I asked the Senator to speak in both languages.

Why did the Senator table it?

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Bhí an treoir a tháinig ón chás a bhí ann idir an Choimisiún agus Éire an-soiléir go raibh an Chúirt ag rá nach raibh Éire ag cloí leis na rialacha faoi ailt 4 agus 8, ach go raibh Contae an Chabháin ag cloí leo. Bhí Contae an Chabháin ag cloí leis na treoirlínte a leagadh síos ag an Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, i 1996. Níl aon soiléiriú faighte ag an Teach nó Baill an Tí ar cad iad na treoirlínte a bhfuil an tAire ag dul a úsaid san mBille úr nuair a thiocfaidh sé i bhfeidhm. Ach an tuiscint atá againn ó na daoine proifisiúnta san earnáil phríobháideach agus san earnáil phoiblí ná go bhfuil an tAire ag dul i dtoil leis na treoirlínte a tháinig ón Choimisiún i 2009 agus a cuireadh i bhfeidhm ag an EPA i 2009 agus 2010. Sin iad na treoirlínte a bhfuil an tAire chun glacadh leo. Dá rachadh an tAire leis na treoirlínte atá á úsáid i gContae an Chabháin ní bheadh siad chomh holc le treoirlínte 2009 nó 2010.

An mbeadh Seanadóirí ar thaobh an Rialtais sásta na moltaí go léir atá ins an mBille a fheiceáil? Tá sé molta againn-ne go mbeadh baint sloda aonuaire ar fáil do gach teach sa tír, nach mbeadh táille ar aon teach agus nach mbeadh aon táille ar sheirbísiú a dhéanamh agus go mbeadh deontas suas go dtí 85% ar fáil do dhuine a bhfuil dabhach shéarachais aige chun é a thabhairt suas go dtí an chaighdéan.

Bheadh sin go léir molta do gach teach sa tír, ach amháin i gContae an Chabháin. Bhíomar ag iarraidh soiléiriú a fháil ón Aire.

An Cathaoirleach

What the Senator is saying relates more to the section than to the amendment. The latter is specific in the context of the Cavan model.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

In page 4, between lines 46 and 47, to insert the following:

"(3) Any other information required will be specified before the Bill is passed and will be of no cost to the owner.".

I am very disappointed amendment No. 6 cannot be moved.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I hear there has been a split in the Opposition since I left.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

The Minister, Deputy Hogan, is now the one caught because in that amendment we are proposing the de-sludging plan and the grants, which would resolve all the issues throughout the country, including in County Cavan, but it has been ruled out of order.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator must speak to amendment No. 7.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Amendment No. 7 relates to most of 70B(3) in section 4. Under the legislation as it is currently construed costs will be imposed on septic tank owners. When they get the provisional notice from the local authority they will be forced to apply to the water services authority in whose function area the treatment system is situated to have the treatment system, which includes a septic tank, entered onto the register of domestic wastewater treatment systems which will be maintained by the local authority.

I refer to section 4(3)(a), (b), (c) and (d). We are proposing that any information the local authority will provide will be at no cost to the septic tank owner or the householder because there is an array of hidden charges built in to this legislation that could result in substantial costs to the individuals who may need to seek information. The Minister has acknowledged that he will make planning an exemption for the septic tank charges and he has not ruled out the possibility of ecological costs for persons who have a septic tank in a natural heritage area, NHA, a special protection area, or a special area of conservation, SAC. I checked the costs with an ecologist in Donegal and they generally start at approximately €750 for an ecological report. If one is located in a wetlands area — under the Minister’s directive signed on 8 September most of the west is now a wetland area — the cost could include an environmental impact assessment if the land is within certain a certain zone.

Deputy Phil Hogan

It is planning exempt. It does not come into it.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

It overrides SPAs and everything.

Deputy Phil Hogan

In case the Senator does not know, it is part of a planning application.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

We will want to see that written into the legislation. We will want to make sure, line by line, that environmental impact assessments and any environmental assessments or ecological reports are exempt for any works that have to be carried out. If that is the case I am sure the Minister will have no difficulty in accepting this amendment to the effect that the householder will not be expected to bear any further costs apart from making the application, for which we propose there will be no registration fee, and that there will be no other additional costs hidden in this section.

Section 4(3) states:

An application under this section shall—

(a) be made in writing or by electronic means, [we have no difficulty with that because if it was only by electronic means it would make it very difficult for people who may not have access to a computer]

(b) specify the name of the applicant and the address at which he or she normally resides, [we have no difficulty with that]

(c) specify the address at which the domestic waste water treatment system is situated, [we have no difficulty with that]

(d) contain such other information as may be prescribed, [we have major difficulty with that because that is as long as it is wide] and

(e) in the case of the application under subsection (2), be accompanied by the prescribed fee.

We have tabled another amendment on that because we are not in agreement with it. The information must be specified before this Bill can be passed, regardless of any other relevant information the householder would be required to send to the local authority.

The Minister might clarify when he intends to introduce a Government amendment to the effect that there will be no planning charges, no environmental impact assessment charges and no SPA, NHA or SAC implications in terms of any septic tank located in or near an SPA or a wetlands area. If that is the case questions may arise in terms of the classification of those areas, and I am sure we will have people such as those in An Taisce jumping up and down. The alternative that we would accept is that if there is a requirement to have those reports the Department would pay for them. However, we favour no charges or cost in this area to the householder or the consumer.

Senator Denis Landy

Except in County Cavan.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Senator Ó Domhnaill wants the County Cavan experience in the entire country.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Ó Domhnaill to continue, without interruption.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

It is Senator Landy's councillor colleagues in County Cavan who can make the decision.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Fine Gael councillors in County Cavan, the Senator's colleagues, will not relish the prospect of a €250 fee instead of the €200 they currently pay.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I hope the Minister will reassure the House that the form of registration, when it eventually sees the light of day, will not win the prize for difficult English. Whenever most Departments get their hands on forms, irrespective of whichever party is running the Administration, I always have the impression that there is a group of people who gleefully look on form creation a little like getting sweets for Christmas, in other words, they try to make it as difficult and complicated as possible for the ordinary citizen. The Minister has spelled out in good detail exactly what will be required under the registration but I would like an assurance that the form of registration will, in the interests of clarity, be simple, straightforward and will not have any addendums, appendices or references to subsections.

I am concerned about that because there is a reference in the Bill to the phrase "contains such information as may be prescribed". The Minister might enlighten us as to his thinking on what other information might be involved. I can think of one item of information in the context of this debate on the amendment. I am not an expert on septic tanks but we have had septic tanks since the early 1960s and treatment plants have changed considerably in that time. The more modern septic tank is a much more efficient machine than those of a few decades ago. Does the Minister believe it will be of benefit to the various water authorities, which are the local authorities in this case, to have information on the type of septic tank or is that something that will follow later in terms of the inspection?

I am not sure how the inspection will identify the type of septic tank, and whether the Minister believes that will be relevant. If technology has moved on to the point where there is now little or no pollution from the more modern septic tanks, the inference is that there are older septic tanks that are leaking and causing pollution. Is that the type of information about which the Minister is concerned?

I am concerned — I suppose this is inevitable as it happens in almost every Bill of this type — with the phrase "prescribed fee" in respect of an application under subsection (2). That is a great get-out clause for Ministers. I appreciate the registration fee will be made clear but why did the Minister not prescribe it in this legislation and state what he has been outlining? It raises the issue of whether successive Ministers for the environment will use this as another tax raising method or another form of revenue for the Department.

I am delighted. I will not tell the radio station about that.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Is mór agam deis a fháil labhairt ar an rún seo. Tá cuid de na rudaí faoin mBille seo sách doiléir . . . sin an pointe a bhí mé ag iarraidh a dhéanamh.

I welcome the robust debate that is taking place and the clarification and bona fides of the Minister. I believe he is telling us how he sees it and how it will play out. In recent years we have had different Ministers for the environment with different opinions. What is written in the legislation is how it will be interpreted and it can be interpreted in two ways. How the Minister intends to interpret may be one way. We need to future proof the legislation in order that people cannot be caught out and that Ministers with a different agenda might take a different meaning. Although the Minister has clarified a certain number of points in the legislation, what we hear when discussing this issue with people at all the public meetings across the country is that this is a very complicated Bill. When one tries to read through the EU directives on which it is based, they are complicated and point one from one directive to another. It is a complicated process to go through.

Our job as legislators is to make the Bill as simple as possible for the people whom it will affect. The system to be put in place must be clear. Therefore, the information that has been alluded to, specifically around the specification that will be expected of the ground water in the vicinity of the domestic water treatment system that is in place, should be made clear before the Bill is enacted. The Minister should tell the House his intentions for those specifications so that if people want to conduct their own test tomorrow morning they can get somebody to come out and check the water to ascertain whether it is up to standard. We need to remove any vagueness around this issue so that people are clear where they stand on it.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I suppose we have a good deal of misinformation about this legislation, starting with a €300 annual inspection charge. It is a while ago since we heard that but it was dropped. Now we have the Cavan Fianna Fáil €200 inspection charge, arising from an amendment tabled by the Fianna Fáil Party, whereas I am seeking no more than €50 for a registration charge. At least we have clarity on that issue.

The purpose of the guidelines to be drawn up is to ensure the septic tank is working, minimum standards apply, and there is no danger to public health, the environment or groundwater quality. There are no guidelines in place that meet those requirements. If I were to adhere to existing guidelines I would make the requirements too onerous, unlike Senator Ó Domhnaill who wants to make the requirements more onerous. The 1996 EPA guidelines provided for a €200 inspection charge but I do not want to do that, hence I opposed that amendment. We are interested only in meeting the basic requirements of the ECJ judgment in having an inspection and monitoring system in place that meets that judgment of good practice in regard to public health and the environment. That argument will not suit everybody especially those who go around in the Senator's constitutency and others talking about regulations that do not exist. They speak about introducing measures that I have no intention of introducing but I cannot stop those people. If people want to perpetuate this type of nonsense I cannot stop them.

I cannot stipulate a fee in the Bill — no Government does that. The fee will be no more than €50 for registration purposes. There is a standard catch-all phase included in legislation for the same purpose. I am doing no more or no less than what is standard practice in law. I have no other particular proposal in mind. The planning regulations to implement that will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and one has 21 days, as part of a statutory instrument, in which to deal with them. The planning regulations, about which Senator Mooney is concerned, will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I do not consider the amendment before the House to be appropriate. The details to be requested, when registering, are under consideration by the Department and the EPA. The registration will be kept as simple and as straightforward as possible. I agree with Senator Mooney that there is a temptation to seek more information than that relating to septic tanks or households when sending notices to the door or filling in a form. I will look at that form before it is disseminated to households.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

I appreciate the Minister's reply. It strikes me as strange that if we have been found to be in contravention of an ECJ ruling, which obviously lays down a certain standard for water quality, that the ruling did not indicate a proper water quality standard to be adhered to. Therefore, it is strange that officials in his Department would not have said that when the water quality is checked, this is the standard we should be looking at. It is not unreasonable to ask that be made available to people in advance, as part of the discussion around this Bill — it is quite fair. Some 36 years have elapsed since this directive was introduced in 1965 and successive Governments failed to implement it. Cavan has introduced some regulation which states that water quality is at a standard that would not contravene the ECJ ruling. It must be clear from that what the water quality level should be and that should be made available as part of the discussion on the Bill.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Sin go díreach an pointe céanna a bhí mé féin ag dul a dhéanamh faoin treoir a bheidh ag teacht ó thaobh an chreitéir a bheidh á leagadh síos ar gach dabhach shéarachais nach cuid de scéim é ó thaobh na hoibre atá an Roinn a lorg chun an dabhach a thabhairt suas go dtí cibé caighdeán a leagfar síos. Cuireann sé iontas orm nach bhfuil na treoirlínte foilsithe agus nach bhfuil eolas ar bith againn sa Seanad ar na treoirlínte sin a bhaineann leis an reachtaíocht. Sin bun agus barr an scéil. In respect of what Senator Ó Clochartaigh has said, I do not mean to keep harping back to Cavan County Council which is adopting 1996 guidelines. For anybody who did not read that section and our amendment fully, part of the section reads:

Each water services authority shall establish and maintain a register of domestic waste water treatment systems situated within its functional area (in this Part referred to as a ‘register of domestic waste water treatment systems').

I am sure he would have some input——

Deputy Phil Hogan

I might not be around to reduce it.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh asked about guidelines. These are listed in section 70C of Part 4A of the Bill, which states the following.

The owner of a premises connected to a domestic waste water treatment system shall—

(a) comply with regulations made under section 70L,

(b) ensure that the system does not constitute, and is not likely to constitute, a risk to human health or the environment,

and, in particular does not—

(i) create a risk to water, air or soil, or to plants and animals,

(ii) create a nuisance through noise or odours, or

(iii) adversely affect the countryside or places of special interest,

and

(c) ensure that the system is entered on a register of domestic waste water treatment systems in accordance with section 70B.

This amends the principal Act to set out the principles with which we will comply. As I have said several times, these are new regulations, in conjunction with the EPA and the local authorities, which ensure that we have good quality ground water, that we are not contaminating groundwater sources, that we are not contaminating water to an extent of risking public health, and that we are protecting the environment. These are set out quite explicitly. The Senator will have to accept that the prescriptive nature of including what he is asking cannot be put in the legislation, but will have to be put in the regulations that subsequently follow.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

They should be part of this debate so we are clear——

Deputy Phil Hogan

The regulations will subsequently be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Senator will then have an opportunity to debate them.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Will that happen before or after the Bill is enacted?

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Bill comes first, then the regulations.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I am grateful to the Minister. That is common sense. As he outlined, specific fees are not always included in legislation, so this will go some way to allaying fears out there that there is some hidden charge on the registration fee as currently prescribed.

The date by which the treatment system must be registered will be specified in regulations to be made by the Minister. In light of the previous debate and in order to reassure those who may have difficulty in filling out the form, will the Minister request any response from the local authorities to assist people in filling in the forms? He has yet to specify the date. It could be two or three weeks from the time the notice is sent out. How does that system work? Is it about self-compliance? Do people have to contact the local authority? At the moment, there is no register. I am not too clear on this. It is a little bit vague on the information that is already with the local authorities. Perhaps there might be some obligation on the local authorities to provide assistance.

Senator Harte has spoken about a certain of category of people. In the past 20 years since European money started coming in, bypassing elected politicians in many cases, an industry of consultants sprang up. They went around charging community groups and others for filling in forms in order to access funds. I am sure the last thing the Minister would want is to create another cottage industry that will levy an extra charge on people.

Will there be a registration period? Will it be obligatory on local authorities to provide the service, rather than discretionary?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

I thank the Minister. I still feel it would be great to make it clear to people what the regulation and the inspection should be in advance, but I appreciate his answer. However, it raises another question. If a person built a house 20 years ago and since then the area has been designated an SPA, an SAC, an NHA or whatever, the Minister states that there will be a planning exemption in place for such a house. Will this also cover the exemptions that would relate to an NHA, SAC and an SPA?

Deputy Phil Hogan

Yes.

In answer to Senator Mooney's question, people will have 12 months to register. They have the entire year in 2012 to register. I am sure that when public representatives, community groups and neighbours get notification of this particular matter, they will be able to assist the people next door. Some 475,000 people seem a lot but they are scattered around the country. For example, there are about 11,000 in Kilkenny. I am sure I will be able to notify them properly about what the requirements are and help them in any way I can.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Deputy John Paul Phelan will do it anyway.

Senator Cáit Keane

It will be easy for them to find help online.

Senator Jimmy Harte

With regard to the question of assistance with form-filling, many people are quite capable of filling in forms, as we know from our own clinics. Sometimes people are much sharper than the local politicians. I imagine the local authorities would have information days on this. Local community groups should be encouraged to do this also, in conjunction with local authorities. This will be a new system for everyone. There are people who are afraid of form-filling, but local authorities and community groups have a background and an interest in helping them. I do not think it will be a big issue. If they cannot get the Senator on the telephone they can telephone me in Donegal. Between the two of us we can look after them all.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I move amendment No. 8:

Cuirim fáilte roimh an méid atá á rá ag an Aire. Tá sé ag gealladh go leor agus ag tabhairt an-soiléiriú anocht. Sílim go bhfuil an díospóireacht seo go maith agus thar a bheith cuimsitheach. Is iontach an rud é deis ceart cainte agus deis ceart labhartha a fháil ar cheisteanna tromchúiseacha den chineál seo. Tá mé amhrasach faoin alt beag a deireann "contains such other information as may be prescribed". Sílim go bhfuil sé ag fágáil rudaí i bhfad ró-oscailte i gcead an Aire atá ann faoi láthair. Beidh an Roinn ábalta rudaí breise a chur leis an reachtaíocht seo nach bhfuil i gceist fiú ag an Aire. B'fhéidir go dtiocfaidh Aire eile ó pháirtí eile——

Deputy Phil Hogan

On amendment No. 7, to which the Senator referred, any other information required will be specified before the Bill is passed, which is what he wanted me to do. I was not prepared to do that.

Senator David Cullinane

The amendment is about the application form to get on the register. The Minister indicated, when pressed, that he would seek clarification of the types of information the EPA will seek, and offered some examples. Why then did he subsequently opt for a catch-all provision? Why not define the information in order to make clear the intention of this provision? There is a concern that a future Minister could misuse this legislation, for example, with title deeds, proof of ownership——

Deputy Phil Hogan

I would not misuse legislation.

Senator David Cullinane

I am not referring to the Minister. The amendment seeks to remove the word "prescribe". My point is that the Minister should define exactly what information the EPA can and should seek rather than going for a catch-all provision.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I do not want to delay proceedings, but I predict that the Minister will be hoisted by his own petard on this issue. He has been very clear in regard to other sections and subsections as to how the prescribed form will be rolled out. Therefore, I cannot understand why he has chosen not to spell out what is envisaged in this particular provision. What is out there that we do not know about? What is the assumption or inference behind it?

Deputy Phil Hogan

We will not know what is out there until the inspections take place. That is the point.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I cannot understand why, having gone to the trouble of making other provisions which are very detailed in regard to the application form, the Minister has thrown in this canard in regard to additional information. It is reasonable that we should seek to establish what precisely is involved here. As I said earlier in respect of the various types of septic tanks, none of us has any difficulty with ensuring the authorities get as much information as possible. All we are seeking to clarify is whether there is a hidden agenda.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Senator Denis Landy

I agree with Senator Ó Clochartaigh. For example, if the Minister's house has its wastewater system connected into the public system which, due to the failure on the part of the local authority, is flowing into and polluting the river and I have a septic tank which is not affecting a water course, I am punished and the Minister gets off scot free. This is completely unfair. I think every house should have to comply. This is the point being made by the Sinn Féin Senators. If their amendments had been in order they would have provided a very valuable input into this debate. There is an element of unfairness in the manner of the debate and it is somewhat bureaucratic. I do not wish to accuse the Minister because I regard myself as almost a friend of his——

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Senator should be very careful because he is a Wexford man and they do not win too often.

Senator Jim Walsh

Would this have anything to do with the forthcoming budget and the €23 million or so which will be collected in registration fees?

An Cathaoirleach

This is not included in the amendment.

Senator John Gilroy

I wish to be helpful. The Members of the Opposition are in danger of tying themselves into linguistic knots and Senator Cullinane is talking about hypothetical houses. I will try to add some clarity to the debate. Senator Ó Domhnaill and Senator Ó Clochartaigh ask whether a future Minister could abuse this Minister's legislation for some nefarious or perfidious function and this is always a possibility. No law can bind a future Minister; the next Minister can do what he or she wishes, such as introducing another new law. Whether this law is tied up or tied down does not matter because a new Minister can bring in another law to repeal this law. Therefore, the Senators' concerns are completely irrelevant and unfounded.

Senator David Cullinane

That is a very weak argument if I ever heard one.

Senator Denis Landy

I probably need to be more prescriptive in my delivery of my deliberation. When I referred to all houses, I mean all houses in the context of this particular legislation, the houses with septic tanks, of which Senator Ó Domhnaill informs us, there are 475,000 in the country. I wish to say this for the sake of clarity. When I speak in future I will be a lot clearer for those who may misinterpret what I might be trying to say.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I thank Senator Landy because he has brought clarity to the matter. The Minister seemed to imply that only houses affecting water courses within the 475,000 would be inspected and requested to upgrade. This is how it operates in County Cavan. I am informed by my learned colleague that not all the houses in County Cavan are included.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Senator Wilson is the Cavan man.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

All the houses in Cavan will now get €50; therefore it is getting worse——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Ó Domhnaill to continue, without interruption.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Legislation should be tight, irrespective of what Government is in power. Legislation should come before the Oireachtas if changes such as those proposed in this Bill are to be regulated by a ministerial regulation.

Senator Walsh made a very good point on the pollution threat caused by urban wastewater systems. In my constituency and throughout greater Donegal there are sewerage treatment plants operated under the control of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government which flow directly into rivers and out into the sea. When some of those plants——

Senator Cáit Keane

The Senator is a long time looking at that.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Senator Walsh is making me laugh.

An Cathaoirleach

Please stick to the amendment, Senator.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

It mentions prescribed costs but we do not know what they are. They could be anything. The Minister has not clarified this and I do not expect him to do so because he may not know the answer. As he mentioned, it will be up to the Environmental Protection Agency, in conjunction with his Department, to decide at a future date what those prescribed costs will be.

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 5, to delete lines 9 to 11 and substitute the following:

"(e) in the case of an application under subsection (2), there will be no fee required.”.

Tá an leasú seo agus leasú Shinn Féin beagnach mar an gcéanna agus tá an bheirt againn aontaithe ar an leasú seo. Táimid ag tarraingt aird ar an táille atá nochtaithe sa Bhille seo, an "prescribed fee" mar atá sé leagtha amach sa Bhille agus an táille a rachfaidh leis sin agus na himpleachtaí a bhaineann leis ó thaobh tamaill síos an bóthar nuair a thiocfaidh leis an táille sin a fháil i bhfad níos airde ná mar atá leagtha amach sa Bhille. Tá sé leagtha amach ag €500 in aghaidh an tí. Má chuirtear an €500 sin in aghaidh gach teach i gcomhthéacs go bhfuil 475,000 teach sa tír atá dabhach shéarachais ceangailte leo, ciallódh sin go mbeadh beagnach €24 milliún, €23.75 milliún, ag teacht isteach as an táille seo. Glacaim leis go bhfuil an tAire ag iarraidh an Bhille seo a bhrú tríd an Teach de bhrí go bhfuil an deis ann an Bille a bheith glactha ag an Seanad agus curtha tríd an Dáil roimh an cháinaisnéis sa dóigh go mbeidh an Rialtas in ann €24 milliún breise a fháil sa cháinaisnéis agus gur sin ceann de na príomh phointí a bhaineann leis an mBille seo. B'fhéidir go bhfuil smaoineamh eile ag an Aire, ach sin an dóigh a amharcann sé ón dtaobh seo den Teach.

Táimidne ag cur i gcoinne go mbeadh aon táille ceangailte leis an mBille seo, mar go bhfuil na daoine atá ina gcónaí i gceantair tuaithe faoi láthair, cosúil le duine ar bith atá ina chónaí in aon cheantar eile, faoi go leor brú airgeadais de bhrí go bhfuil morgáistí agus billí acu. Maidir le duine ar bith nach bhfuil ag obair, tá costais mhóra orthu agus a n-ioncam íslithe de bhrí, b'fhéidir, gur chaill duine sa bhaile post. Ar an dtaobh eile den scéal, duine ar bith atá ag obair, tá táillí móra orthu de bhrí morgáistí, cúram páistí agus go leor táillí tí eile agus go leor rátaí eile atá ag dul le teach a choinneáil ag dul ar aghaidh.

An rud is mó faoin táille seo a chuireann imní mór orainn ar an dtaobh seo den Teach ná go bhfuil an Rialtas ag moladh táille chláracháin a thabhairt isteach do ghach duine a bhfuil dabhach shéarachais acu. Aontaím go gcaithfidh dóigh éigin a bheith ann chun clárú a bheith ann, ach ní chóir go mbeadh táille ceangailte leis sin de bhrí go bhfuil——

Senator Michael D’Arcy

The Senator has repeated exactly what he said on the last amendment. He is saying it all again.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Nice try by Senator Michael D'Arcy.

Senator Michael D’Arcy

Senator Ó Domhnaill is saying the same thing as Gaeilge.

Senator Tom Sheahan

Repetition.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Is mór an trua é nach bhfuil Gaeilge ag an Seanadóir.

Senator Michael D’Arcy

It is just the same thing over and over again.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

It is an awful pity one cannot speak in one's native language in the House without being accused of misleading the House.

As I will speak in Irish, Members may wish to put on their earphones.

Is dóigh go dtagann ceist an táille go bun an scéil maidir leis an gcur i gcoinne atá ag Sinn Féin i dtaobh an Bhille seo. Táimid glan i gcoinne an táille seo a bheith curtha ar ghnáth mhuintir na tíre ar an mbunús gur dóigh linn nach bhfuil siad in ann é a iompar faoi láthair. Ceapaim go gceapann an tAire nach mórán é €50, ach don dream atá muid ag labhairt leo amuigh ansin is fadhb an-mhór é go mbeadh €50 sa bhreis le n-íoc acu. Feiceann siad é mar cháin bhreise agus tá sé seo ag teacht sa mullach ar na costais bhreise atá buailte orthu, mar shampla an universal social charge, an táille breise atá le chur ar theach cónaithe, an costas breise a bheidh ar málaí bruscair agus mar sin de, costais atá ag ardú. Is ceist eacnamúil í seo agus is bunphointe fealsúnachta é idir muide agus an Rialtas.

Tá muide tar éis moltaí a chur chun cinn maidir leis an gcáinaisnéis a thaispeánann go bhfuil muide i Sinn Féin ar son na cánach a ghearradh ar na daoine atá ábalta í a iompar, sin iad na daoine a bhfuil maoin thar na bearta acu, atá os cionn €1 milliún acu. Táimid ag iarraidh go gcuirfí cáin mhaoine ar na daoine sin, go ndeanfaí gearradh siar ar na tuarastail sa seirbhís phoiblí agus go mbeadh uasmhéid de €100,000 orthu sin. Tá go leor moltaí eile againn agus tá siad sa mholadh a chur muid chun cinn ó thaobh ——

Senator James Heffernan

Is this part of the amendment?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Absolutely. Baineann sé leis an táille. Baineann an táille seo le hairgead a bhailiú don Stát. Táthar ag caint ar €50 breise a chur ar ghnáth mhuintir na tíre atá ag cónaí i Luimneach, i gConamara agus ar fud na tíre. Bhí cruinnithe poiblí ar siúl agus an pointe mór a bhí ag daoine ag na cruinnithe sin ná nach mbeadh siad ábalta é seo a íoc. Níl siad in ann chuige agus nílim ag magadh faoi sin. Dúirt siad go bhfuil an oiread buailte sa mullach orthu, go bhfuil poist caillte ag daoine agus go bhfuil costais bhreise oideachais orthu, go háirithe ar dhaoine atá ag iarraidh páistí a chur chuig an ollscoil. Tá siad ag rá linn nach bhfuil seo ceart ná cóir.

Tá mise ag rá gurb é tuairim Shinn Féin ná gur córas breise é seo le hairgead a bhailiú don Stát. Bheadh muide i bhfábhar córas chlárúcháin muna mbeadh táille i gceist, ach níl muid i bhfábhar an táille. Is ar an mbunús sin atá muid ag cur i gcoinne an Bhille. Sa leasú seo, táimid ag iarraidh ar an Aire fáil réidh leis an táille, agus dar linne gur ceart glacadh leis. D'iarr mé níos túisce, ach ní bhfuair mé freagra, cén costas a bheadh leis an córas seo. An bhfuil meastachán déanta ar sin? Ní bhfuair muid freagra ar sin, mar baineann an méid atáthar ag baint amach leis an táille. Má tá sé ag dul ag costáil €5 milliún in aghaidh na bliana leis an gcóras seo a riaradh, tá bealaí eile ann do Rialtas ar bith a bheadh i gceannas sa tír seo le €5 milliún a fháil, seachas costas breise a chur ar ghnáth dhaoine ar fud na tíre. Sin an bunphointe.

Senator James Heffernan

How would they do that?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Sin an pointe a bhí á dhéanamh agam a Sheanadóir nuair a bhí mé ag caint faoi na moltaí atá déanta ag Sinn Féin maidir leis an réamhbhuiséad. Bhí muid ag iarraidh díospóireachta faoi sin. Baineann an díospóireacht le cé as a bhfuil muid ag fáil an airgid agus cá bhfuil muid ag cur béime. An bhfuil muid ag cur béime ar tuilleadh chostais a chur ar ghnáth dhaoine nó an bhfuil muid ag rá, ó thaobh fealsúnachta de, gur ceart gurb iad na daoine a bhfuil neart airgid acu sa tír seo a bheadh ag iompar an ualaigh seo. Sin an bunphointe atá againn agus seasann muid leis sin. Ar an mbunús sin, táimid ag moladh an leasaithe seo.

It will get the Senator nowhere.

Senator David Cullinane

The fact that the charge has been set for five years does not prevent the Minister from returning in six months or two years to increase it to €100 or more.

Senator Marie Moloney

When Sinn Féin is in government, it can reverse the decision.

Senator David Cullinane

I hope we will be in government. Given all the factions and friction in the Government currently, that is a real possibility. Sinn Féin has three Members in the House but we may well reach the magic number of five. I am sure a number of Labour Party Senators may want to come to our side of the House and stand with a party that protects rural Ireland, working people and those who are struggling and being scapegoated because of other people's problems.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

The job of the Government at the end of the day is to balance the books and that is not an easy task. Hard choices will have to be made and people have many questions and concerns. Even though the Opposition is small in number, it is vital that we use the opportunity we have in this debate to tease out every issue. I would not like too much grandstanding but there are issues and they are being discussed.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011

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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011