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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 9 Dec 2011

Vol. 212 No. 4

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding the appointment of a new Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission — back from committee, to be taken without debate; No. 2, Jurisdiction of Courts and Enforcement of Judgments (Amendment) Bill 2011 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to conclude not later than 1.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 1.35 p.m.; No. 3, Property Services (Regulation) Bill 2009 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil] — Report and Final Stages, for which the time allocated for the debate shall not exceed one hour; No. 4, Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Bill 2010 — Committee and Remaining Stages, to be allocated a time not exceeding two hours and, if not previously concluded, to be concluded by the putting of one question from the Chair; and No. 5, Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011 — Report and Final Stages, to be allocated a time not exceeding two hours and, if not previously concluded, to be concluded by the putting of one question from the Chair. Business shall be interrupted for 30 minutes at the conclusion on No. 3.

Yesterday, I mentioned the European Union is going through the most significant negotiations it has faced in the midst of a crisis of which all our citizens are acutely aware. The word from Europe is that the new arrangements being made will require us to have a new treaty and to amend our Constitution. It is clear from what has been agreed initially that the European Union will seek each member state to put in its constitution set rules and parameters that would not be breached with regard to budget deficits. It is giving very clear fiscal oversight directly to the European Union and the European Commission. The negotiations are ongoing; those involved rose at 6 a.m. and will return to them.

The United Kingdom's decision not to proceed with the agreed treaty changes will have serious ramifications. Yesterday, I mentioned the exemption it was seeking for the City of London and the damage this would do to our financial services sector. Prime Minister Cameron has seen fit to throw his toys out of the pram on this one. He did not get the exemption he required for the City of London and this is good, but having said this, the United Kingdom being outside the first tier of European nations will have further knock-on effects.

Yesterday, the Leader mentioned he was doing his best to arrange a debate on this next week and I appreciate this. It would probably be the most important work we do next week. I understand why the Taoiseach and Tánaiste hoped a referendum would not be required but it is clear that there will be a new treaty and that Europe is breaking new legal and constitutional ground. It needs to be teased out and this Chamber is somewhere that can do it effectively given the breadth of knowledge and experience that is here. I understand that Ministers are busy and it would be better if the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, was available next week but I will not make the debate conditional on her being available. The House needs to have a very serious debate on Europe and on what these changes will mean. It will become clearer over the weekend. If the Leader is trying to arrange a debate and cannot get the Minister of State to come to the House, let us do it anyway. This side of the House will not disagree on that.

The Minister of Justice and Law Reform will come to the House today to deal with legislation. I call for a separate debate next week or early in the new year on Garda resources, crime, Garda stations and coverage throughout the country. It is not appropriate for me to raise issues with regard to Garda stations and Garda resources during today's debates as these matters are outside the scope of the Bills before the House. We need to arrange a separate debate.

We note that yesterday AIB stated it will not pass on the ECB interest rate reduction and in fairness it has the lowest variable rate. However, Bank of Ireland stated it would pass on 0.15% of the cut. It did not pass on the last 0.25%. I am pleased that the Tánaiste was very direct yesterday. He needs to get the bankers back in again. I put it to the Leader that this needs legislation. There will be another rate cut early in the new year and this situation will arise again and again. What is the Government's intention to ensure the 0.25% rate reduction is passed on to mortgage holders? Has any progress been made on this issue?

We are all very conscious of the ongoing negotiations at European level. As Senator Darragh O'Brien stated, they are very important for us, the EU and the international economic situation. Whatever agreement is reached will have serious implications for our prospects of economic recovery.

I also agree with Senator O'Brien's sentiments about Prime Minister Cameron. It is most unfortunate to see him behave in such an obstructive manner at European level. It is too soon to state what will be the outcome of today. I agree we should try to have a debate if it all possible next week when it is hoped matters will be clearer. I hope that at that stage we will know what will be the role of the European Central Bank. The role of the ECB and whether it will become a lender of last resort is a critical issue in the negotiations. It is the key issue to be discussed.

I echo calls made yesterday for a debate on the future of the Seanad, although I agree with Senator O'Keeffe that it may be more appropriate to hold it outside of Seanad formal business. No doubt it will be an ongoing debate throughout the country in the new year. Reference was made on the Order of Business yesterday to a debate on Wednesday night in Trinity College in which I was a participant and in which the former Minister of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell, and Deputy Charlie Flanagan were the other speakers. I found myself in the odd position of being in the middle between the radical abolitionist position of Deputy Flanagan and the radical retentionist position of the former Minister, Mr. McDowell. I argued for fundamental reform of the Seanad and it is probably something on which we could all agree.

There was cross-party agreement on Mary O'Rourke's report in 2004 on how the Seanad could be reformed. It would be very useful for us to have this debate among ourselves but perhaps in a different forum in a public setting. The debate in Trinity College was the start of something. It was very instructive and interesting to hear the comments made, particularly by the former Minister, Mr. McDowell, who has very strong views on the future of the Seanad. I am happy to circulate his paper to colleagues if it would be of assistance.

Our thoughts are on the events happening in Europe because the consequences for all of us could be quite severe. I listened overnight to the reports on the early hour deals and the fact that potentially we could have a two-speed Europe concerns me. While it might not change the speed of cars crossing the border it would have a severe effect on cross-border harmonisation and could slow the pace of the work we are doing as a nation. I echo and fully support calls for a debate, and Senator O'Brien's request is reasonable. We talk about reform of the Seanad and for me reform means having a debate such as this on Europe and that we show we can have a timely debate and use our voices.

Without breaking any privileges I draw attention to a point I raised yesterday about an appointment and to a letter in The Irish Times today from members of the Justice for Magdalenes group who are shocked by it and feel it is an international validation for the person involved and a slap in the face to the women who suffered in Ireland’s Magdalene laundries while they await a State apology. I await answers from the Minister for Justice and Law Reform to the questions I raised yesterday on the Order of Business. I will not drop this issue as I believe these questions must be answered. I will leave it at that for today.

Arising from our debate on the health service yesterday and the interview by the Minister for Health on "Morning Ireland" this morning, I ask the Leader to invite the Minister, Deputy Reilly, to debate the Milliman report at an early date. Yesterday, Senators Sheahan, Burke and Gilroy, to name but three on the Government side, pointed to many abuses they had encountered in the health service in their daily lives. Many of those are documented in the Milliman report and if the Minister, as part of his reform agenda, were to attend the Seanad, the Senators could assist him in bringing their own experiences to the problems they have encountered in the health service. Reform of the health service is a major priority in public life in Ireland.

I agree with the call of my colleague, Senator O'Brien, for a debate on the developments taking place at a European level. It is important that we have such a debate before the end of this session and I agree with him that even if the Minister is not available we should have the debate anyway. In that debate we should examine our own role from a European point of view. Senators Daly and O'Keeffe raised this issue yesterday and I agree fully with them. I have also raised that matter and I believe we should set aside a set period of time every month to deal with European affairs. For instance, the European Commission has 129 proposals to deal with in 2012. Those are matters we could discuss also as well as flagging our concerns about any issue it will deal with in the next 12 months.

There is a report in today's Irish Examiner on the incidence of cancer throughout the country. A clear analysis has been made of the different types of cancer identified across the country and there is a high incidence of particular types of cancer in different areas of the country. It is a matter that should be debated in this House and on which there should be further research. It is a health issue on which both the Department and the entire health service can play a proactive part but we must find the causes of the problem. In Cork city, bowel and pancreatic cancers are at a far higher rate than in any other part of the country and therefore there must be issues in that regard that need to be dealt with. We can make a constructive contribution to that by having an open debate on the issues with a view to determining the policy changes that must be made. I ask for such a debate. I accept we will not have it before Christmas but it should be held early in the new year to deal with that report.

I wish the Taoiseach well in his endeavours in Europe at this critical stage. We are entering uncharted waters. That this country might need a referendum is worrying but the current scenario that is emerging in Europe and the world is also the most serious decision that will impact on this country since we entered Europe in 1973. It is a frightening scenario and I wish the Taoiseach and his officials the very best. I hope he will be wearing the dark green jersey during the negotiations and show his mettle, which I believe he can do, and that he ensures we get the best out of this deal because if we do not there will not be any renegotiation if the matter is put to bed in the coming days, which we all hope will happen.

I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on farming and fishing in the new year because I accept it will not be possible to have one before Christmas. In that regard, many Members may not be aware that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, will travel to Europe next for the annual negotiation — it should be biannual — on the total allowable catch, TAC, under which Irish fishermen will have to operate for the next 12 months. As we approach Christmas we should consider our fishermen who are out in difficult weather providing fish for us and for export, and we should wish the Minister well in the negotiations. Every year it is a question of give a little, take a little but each year it seems to get more difficult. I spoke to the Minister yesterday, and wished him well in his negotiations because we must consider our fishermen who make up a small sector of our community, and also our farmers. The Leader might arrange for a debate on this matter in the new year.

A debate should be arranged on the subject of child abuse some time in the next session. We had a number of debates on abuse by members of the church but many people forget, and society is forgetting, that less than 20% of abuse happened within the church; 80% of abuse happened within homes. That is a serious issue. Society needs to grasp the nettle in that regard. Members of the Seanad have an obligation, morally and legally, to do something about that and to take a stance on it. I hope we will have a specific debate on that some time in the next term to see how we can in some way curtail the type of appalling case that happened recently in Mayo and in other areas, including the Kilkenny incest case and so on. We are brushing the issue under the carpet and we should not do that.

I agree with Senator O'Brien and the other speakers on the summit which is ongoing in Brussels but we should not be totally despondent. We know already that they agreed at 4 a.m. to a number of strengthening mechanisms regarding the IMF and therefore improvements have been made. We are all involved in this process. This country has to defend the euro as much as the other states. From what we have heard I agree with what they have done about budget rules. Fiscal discipline is necessary if we are to survive.

Where would we be without the euro? We do not want to go back to the punt or do a deal with Britain and be allied to sterling. I respect that Britain was good to us in our hour of difficulty with the billions of pounds it advanced. It is unfortunate that they are in a dilemma because of the City of London and sterling but what can we do about it? We should welcome what has happened so far. There is a great deal to be played for today and we should await the outcome of the final communiqué today. I do not believe our IFSC will be damaged as a result of Britain being left out and as a previous speaker said, the most important debate we could have will be a debate arising out of the final communiqué. We should hold off in that respect and I hope the Leader can arrange a debate next week with the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, or some other Minister.

Ar nóta níos éadroime, ba mhaith liom tréaslú leis an Aire Ealaíona, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta, an Teachta Jimmy Deenihan, as an mhaoiniú atáá chur ar fáil do dhrámaíocht na Gaeilge. Aréír, chonaic mé léiriú den scoth in Amharclann na Péacóige le comhlacht as Conamara, Fíbín. Tá an grúpa sin maoinithe ag an Stát agus rinne siad dráma i nGaeilge den chéad scoth. Má tá aon duine ag lorg beagáinín diversion ó na scéalta troma ar fad atá ag tarlú faoi láthair, d'fhéadfaidís rud níos measa a dhéanamh ná dul ag an dráma anocht nó amárach. Tá sé thar barr.

Anybody who wants to improve their Irish should consider popping along to see the play Sétanta, an outstanding production by a group called Fíbín, in the Peacock Theatre, which is being funded through the Minister's offices. It is the first Irish language production in that theatre for some years and it is very welcome.

On a more serious note, I call for a debate on the future of rural schools. A number of changes are being introduced in the budget which are more than just budgetary changes. They will potentially change the fabric of education in our rural communities if they go ahead. The changes proposed to two, three and four teacher schools will mean a radical overhaul of the way education is delivered in our rural communities. I know from the telephone calls I am getting from Connemara and Galway east and west that it is causing a great deal of concern. Many people want to meet me over the weekend to discuss the issues because they believe it will change the way the schools operate and has the potential to result in certain schools being amalgamated.

Beidh tionchar mór aige chomh maith ar na scoileanna Gaeltachta ó thaobh soláthar trí mheán na Gaeilge ins na scoileanna sin. Tá caint air sna scoileanna i gConamara go m'fhéidir go gcaillfear suas le 20 post múinteoireachta sna scoileanna i gConamara agus go bhféadfaí suas le ceithre scoil a chur isteach in éineacht lena chéile. It is important that we would arrange for the Minister to attend the House as soon as possible to discuss the implications of the budgetary changes affecting rural schools.

It is not just a change in the pupil-teacher ratios and in the funding mechanism, but it is a complete overhaul of the implementation of education in our rural communities that is having a very worrying effect on the teachers, parents and pupils. We should certainly debate how that will affect our rural communities in the years to come.

I join Senator O'Donovan in calling for a debate on how robust our systems are to prevent the kind of abuse, torture and rape that was reported in today's newspapers following the court hearing in Castlebar yesterday where a man pleaded guilty to 277 charges of abuse of his daughters over an 18-year period. It seems unbelievable that something like this could go on over such a protracted period. We need to analyse how robust our systems and structures are to prevent anything like this ever happening again. We also want to know that services and supports are available to help the victims of this type of abuse within families through the awful crisis they are no doubt experiencing in their lives at this time.

On a positive note I welcome the appointment last night of a new CEO for the Galway group of hospitals and I wish Mr. Bill Maher well in his new and challenging role. Many Members in the House will be aware of many difficulties in UCHG in recent years. It has lengthy waiting lists, and difficulties in its accident and emergency department and in the system generally. I hope the new appointment will be of benefit to all the hospitals in Galway and Roscommon. I very much welcome the Minister's statement that this appointment will help secure the futures of the small hospitals. I hope the resources and investment required in my local hospital, Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe will now benefit from the restructuring within the group of hospitals. I hope the people of Counties Galway and Roscommon will end up with a better, safer and more efficient hospital system.

I also look forward to the debate on the negotiations that are taking place in Europe. It looks like we will be faced with a new EU treaty in the new year and a referendum. When I heard the interview with the Minister of State this morning, I was surprised that corporation tax was not on the agenda. A number of questions were raised in both Houses as to whether Ireland had set out a position. We had not even tabled for discussion the issue of corporation tax. President Sarkozy quite clearly has it in his sights and he wants to take away whatever competitive advantage Ireland has in trying to grow its way out of the current financial difficulties. I am concerned that we did not challenge him in the open forum available to us. I am equally concerned that this appears to be a fait accompli. We know the Germans and the French are running the show and everybody else is doing the rubberstamping. If instead of talking about handing over fiscal control and fiscal consolidation to Brussels and instead we were to say we were now handing over fiscal control and consolidation of checks and balances——

The Senator's party did that.

—— to Whitehall——

These are things we have to do ourselves.

Senator Daly to continue, without interruption.

Is that my esteemed colleague, Senator Bacik? I will not remind her of the speech she gave two days ago about barracking in the Chamber.

We know the constraints of the IMF-EU bailout, the idea of which is that we would be able to work our way out. However, what is being proposed under the new EU treaty is that there would be permanent oversight of all governments' spending. EU officials will see details of our budget before Deputies and Senators see them. If instead of that being done by Brussels and the EU, we were to say that would be done by Whitehall and Westminster, and that Britain was going to have oversight of our budgetary controls, what kind of reaction would people have then? Essentially once fiscal control and fiscal oversight is handed over, a large swathe of political control is handed over.

We had a debate on the issue that in the past two years 140,000 people have stopped paying for private health insurance, including 43,000 people in the year up to September. I have received representations from people in Sneem and throughout Kerry about this issue, which will have a major long-term effect on us, because public waiting lists will go through the roof. I know the Minister is looking at the matter but he needs to address it because people will not be able to afford it. I had an interesting discussion with a garda in Kenmare recently in which he pointed out that road deaths are now being replaced by suicide. We have put people into their homes and they are drinking without any measure or control.

The Senator is over time.

Unfortunately the incidence of suicide is rising. While the number of road deaths is reducing, we have replaced one means of death with another.

When I spoke yesterday about the possible upcoming strike with the legal aid solicitors and barristers, I did not believe it would proceed, but it did and they walked out of the courts. We now find that more than 100 cases had to be adjourned in the courts because of the strike. That sets a very bad example for people who were trained in advocacy and are some of the best paid people in the country. I know the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, spoke about the matter in the Dáil yesterday and said that he was astonished and astounded bearing in mind that the Criminal Law Practitioner Organisation members comprise some of the highest earners in the criminal legal aid scheme. As legislation to reorganise the system is going through, I ask the Minister to come to the House immediately and put a call out to the well paid people serving on this board. These are not their only earnings. Yesterday one section of the media published what they earn and some people are rightly talking about a cap of €200,000. It is not acceptable for people earning this type of money to go on strike thereby putting cases out of kilter in the courts. As the courts system is overstretched, this is unacceptable and should be treated as an emergency. I believe 120 cases were adjourned yesterday and it affects the District Court also. Something needs to be done immediately.

I join Senator Keane in expressing my concern over what happened. As a solicitor, I am disappointed that my colleagues felt the need to strike. As far as I know — Senator Colm Burke might confirm this — strikes such as this have not previously occurred in the profession. I do not see the necessity for it. This could be handled in an entirely different manner. Perhaps they have now vented their frustrations. It is disappointing as a member of the legal profession to see that frustrations with regard to this service have been exhibited in such a manner. The Minister should probably engage with them on some level to avoid such instances occurring in the future. It is downright irresponsible for this to occur. In fairness to the members of the legal profession, they made provisions for those in custody and for custody-type hearings. However, it is still not good enough. Senator Keane spoke about the system being clogged up, which is a reality in all courts, especially in the District Court where such criminal cases are held. I call on the Minister to do something about this. Perhaps this is the end of it — let us hope it is. This cannot happen in the future and I would welcome a debate on the matter in the new year.

It does not have the backing of the Law Society of Ireland or the Bar Council of Ireland.

Senators O'Brien, Bacik, van Turnhout, Burke, Coghlan and others raised the issue of the EU crisis. This is the most important item that will occupy the minds of many throughout Europe in the next number of days. The Minister of State, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, in her statement this morning mentioned that neither corporation tax nor the treaty changes were discussed yesterday but they will probably be discussed. The protection of the currency is of paramount importance to us. I am endeavouring to have the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, in the House next week. If we cannot get a Minister, I am open to the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition that we debate the issue without having a Minister present. It is important that Seanad Members discuss this crisis, and we will have a debate on the issue. It is only a question of timing.

The schedule for next week has been issued but let me put Members on notice that we will have additional business to discuss on Friday, with Bills coming back from the Dáil. We will also schedule more business for next week, in addition to what is on the schedule.

Senator O'Brien called for a debate on law and order, crime and Garda stations. We had a comprehensive debate yesterday on the Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Bill 2010 in which a number of those items were discussed. I agree with the Senator that we should have a debate on that issue early in the new year.

Senator O'Brien also raised the issue of the Bank of Ireland passing on the ECB interest rate reductions. We will wait and see what the banks will do. The Government's position is very clear and, if necessary, I am sure the banks will be called in again to ensure that reductions in the ECB interest rate will be passed on to mortgage holders.

Most of the Members of the Seanad were unable to be present for the debate in Trinity College the other night. It must have been a very exciting debate on reform of the Seanad and would think that Senator Bacik was in the middle of it. I am sure she did an excellent job when discussing the issue. Again, there is a difference of opinion as to how we should progress that debate. The issue should be debated, whether in this forum or elsewhere. There are rumours of the possibility that we will have a referendum on the future of the Seanad in the first quarter of next year. Nothing is cast in stone, but I am hearing it through the grapevine.

Senator van Turnhout raised the issue of Justice for Magdalenes. She made a very strong point on the issue yesterday and again today. I understand that the issue may be discussed at the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality.

I agree with Senator Barrett that the Minister for Health should attend the Seanad to discuss the problems in the health service. The Seanad could offer some assistance to the Minister in progressing some of the ideas that would help to solve the problems in the health service.

Senator Colm Burke highlighted the issue of cancer care and the clustering of cancer cases, and whether eating habits and lifestyle could be possible causes of cancer. The Seanad Public Consultation Committee is very interested in dealing with this issue and I can assure the Senator we will address it early in the new year.

Senator O'Donovan requested a debate on farming and fishing. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, has indicated that he would be willing to attend the House early in the new year. It is a very important time for fishermen as the negotiations of quotas for the following year take place. I am sure we all join Senator O'Donovan in hoping that the Minister will negotiate a good deal for fishermen for the coming year.

Senators O'Donovan and Mullins raised the issue of child abuse, pointing out that the majority of child abuse cases happened in the home and the abuser was a family member. We have read about the appalling case in County Mayo. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has indicated that she is willing to attend the Seanad in the new year to discuss the issue.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh raised the issue of the arts, the Irish language play in the Peacock theatre and also the future of small schools and how rural communities would be affected by the provisions in the budget on the future of small schools. It is an exaggeration to say that there is a possibility that 20 teachers could go in the Connemara area but I agree that the issue is worthy of debate in the House. Perhaps the Minister for Education and Skills could attend and let us know the overall situation in that regard.

Senator Mullins mentioned the Galway group of hospitals and we hope the appointment will benefit all the hospitals and, most importantly, all the patients in the region.

Senator Daly raised the issue of handing over political control to the European Union. We have already handed over our economic sovereignty and I hope we will get it back in early course as a result of the Government negotiations over the weekend. The Senator also called for a debate on suicide. We will have such a debate during the first week we are back in January.

Senator Keane has asked about what happened in the courts yesterday. It was despicable for a group who are very well paid and should know better to disrupt the Courts Service. Senator Noone called the action irresponsible and I fully agree with her. This has clogged up the courts system and I wonder why that is the situation. They should try to put their own house in order because people's patience will not last. It is irresponsible of barristers and solicitors to take this action when everybody else is suffering from pay cuts.

Order of Business agreed to.
Barr
Roinn