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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Jan 2012

Vol. 212 No. 12

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the report of the advisory group on small business (resumed), to be taken following the Order of Business and conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply to the debate not later than 1.20 p.m.; and No. 2, statements on ideas for job creation, to be taken at 2 p.m. and conclude not later than 5 p.m., with the contributions of Senators not to exceed five minutes each.

For the information of the House, following the conclusion of this discussion each group leader will draw up a document highlighting the main points raised during the course of the afternoon by his or her group and the Leader of the Seanad will forward a composite list of recommendations to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, for consideration. Senator Cummins asked me to specifically say that would be the outcome of the debate today.

I ask the Deputy Leader to make contact with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, to invite him to meet the residents of Priory Hall. Dublin City Council is being of no assistance at this stage to the residents who are still, in effect, homeless. Numerous requests have been sent to the Minister by the residents' group in Priory Hall but he has refused to meet it. The residents have written to the Taoiseach but he has also refused to meet them. The Government has a responsibility in the matter. At the very least the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government should afford some time to meet a delegation of residents. I ask Senator Bacik to pass on my request.

I am most interested to note the comments of the Minister, Deputy Noonan, in Germany yesterday and, specifically, why he chose to make the comments he did in Germany. He said he would ensure that there is no private sector involvement for Irish senior bank payment or sovereign debt. That is a departure from what he has been saying up to now. When he went on his much heralded visit to Washington he said he would impose significant losses on some senior bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society. He told a meeting of German bankers yesterday that this country would not seek any private sector involvement in sharing the debt burden. Why has a Minister chosen to make significant remarks of this nature outside the Houses of the Oireachtas? What is the Government position on the issue? It is of no great surprise to me because there have been so many U-turns up to now. Could the Deputy Leader confirm to the House today that it is the Government's stated position that there will be no private sector involvement in any debt burden sharing? This is a new departure for the Government. Unfortunately, the Minister for Finance saw fit to make the announcement to German bankers first, as opposed to making it to the elected representatives of the people.

I wish to refer to education, in particular small schools, rural schools, and minority faith schools. I raised on the Adjournment yesterday an issue relating to a Church of Ireland school in my constituency. I seek as a matter of urgency that the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, would come to the House for a full debate on education. Not only has the Government effectively increased the pupil-teacher ratio for small rural schools and small schools in the Dublin area and in other city areas, it has been confirmed to me by the Minister of State, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, that by the end of the month there will be an increase in the requirements for permanent learning support within those schools. Any four-teacher school will now lose its permanent learning support post. We spoke in this House and in the other House yesterday about the importance of education, young people and especially those who require assistance in education to bring them up a level. This is a serious departure that has been slipped in under the radar. Effectively, any school with four teachers or fewer that has a permanent learning support post will lose the permanent post.

Does Senator O'Brien have a question for the Deputy Leader?

I would like the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to come to the House today. I know, however, that will not be possible, but I seek a commitment that he will come to the House next week for a detailed debate to explain to me what the Government is doing. Not only is there an attack on rural schools but in this instance there is an attack on minority faith schools. Why is the Government going after smaller schools? It is because it does not believe there will be a critical mass for protests on the issue.

Senator O'Brien can raise such issues during the debate.

I am sure my colleagues across the House would be most concerned about this departure as well. I ask that the Deputy Leader request the Minister for Education and Skills to come to the House at the earliest date next week.

I ask the Deputy Leader to seek clarity from the Minister for Finance on the story in The Irish Times today regarding the possible threat to our corporate tax rate. Ireland is experiencing its worst economic recession in generations. For years a key element of our economic prosperity was our attractive corporation tax rate. While I understand the position in Europe is turbulent and European finance Ministers and Heads of Government are trying to devise proposals to ensure the euro and the European Union survive, which I am confident will be the case, this a small island nation and the key to future growth will not just be the development of the agriculture and tourism industries but also the retention of our corporation tax rate. Will the Deputy Leader seek clarity from the Minister for Finance on the Government’s position on its retention? I do not doubt that the Government will fight tooth and nail to retain it at the current rate, as this will be the deal breaker. Irrespective of whatever else occurs, the rate that has contributed to our prosperity and will be an important element of our economic recovery must be maintained.

During the week there were reports on the Government selling Aer Lingus. Even considering its sale would be dangerous. The carrot is that we will maintain the slots at Heathrow Airport, but this is not a tin pot country that will put up with being told to remove ownership of the airline from Irish hands. Ryanair is a commercial concern. What would happen if we were to need a national airline to evacuate Irish people from a country in which there was a problem? What would happen if we were to need an airline but had lost control? I would welcome the Minister's attendance in the Chamber to discuss this issue.

We must highlight the fact that we do not consider the sale of Aer Lingus as one of the options being imposed on us by the troika which has told us that we need to sell national assets. If we are to sell the national airline, let us ensure no foreign company takes more than a 49% stake. Tourism is essential, yet Irish tourism would have no importance for a foreigner for whom any decision would be purely commercial. I have argued strongly in favour of privatisation of many concerns, but Aer Lingus is an Irish icon and has established itself as something of which we can be proud. Retaining ownership of it is essential if we are not to lose control of this outlet for tourism and exports. While tourism is one of our great earners, it would not be in the interests of a commercial concern to regard it as such if other outlets would be more beneficial commercially. We wear two hats — commercial and security. We should strongly recommend to the Government that it not allow one of the options imposed on it to be the sale of more than a 49% stake in Aer Lingus to be placed in foreign hands.

I refer to events to take place on National Diabetes Day. Thanks to the media which have provided facilities and doctors who are freely giving of their time, tests are ongoing at various shopping centres throughout the country. Why is this test not mandatory when a patient presents to a general practitioner? The pinprick blood test is not common. The way the country is going, preventive medicine should be as important as curative. Today is about preventive medicine, but there should be facilities available. I do not know how expensive the machines are, but there should be one in every area with three or four GPs and the public should be made aware of the test's availability. Currently, patients queue for blood tests in hospitals, which is time consuming for nurses and other staff whose time could be otherwise used. Will the Minister for Health investigate why such tests are not a daily occurrence in GPs' surgeries or even area GPs' surgeries?

Our thoughts and prayers today are on the rescue attempt under way following the tragedy in Glandore in my area. Today is probably the start of a 48 hour window of opportunity in seeking to recover the bodies which everyone hopes will be found. As someone who has experienced a tragedy and the recovery of a body in January 1985, many landlubbers do not know what it means to a fishing community and the families of those who are missing, presumed drowned, to have their bodies recovered. It would help to bring closure and be a small relief to the community.

I compliment the considerable efforts of the Garda divers in their attempts to access the vessel. Thankfully, there was one survivor, an Egyptian who was washed off the boat. His opinion is that the bodies are still within the vessel and can be recovered sooner rather than later. I also compliment the Irish Coast Guard, the cliff and shore rescue workers and the community in Union Hall and the greater west Cork area who have bonded together in what is a difficult situation for the fishing and coastal communities. Such tragedies reverberate in the psyche of everyone living along the coast or with a connection with the fishing industry.

I ask that the Seanad send its good wishes and prayers to the recovery service. Today and possibly tomorrow are critical, as the weather is somewhat benign, but this window of opportunity can evaporate quickly. We wish the recovery operation every success and are thinking of the families involved, the local community and the fishing community which is sometimes forgotten during this difficult time. For years as a Deputy and Senator, I have raised the problems of the fishing community week in and week out. I will continue to do so, as it is important that we think about our friends, fishermen, those who are lost and the grieving families in their most difficult hour. It is good that we speak on such issues to show our support and solidarity. I am satisfied that every Senator, regardless of politics, will support me in my call, reflect and say a prayer for the success of the recovery battle.

Our thoughts are with the community mentioned at this time. We join Senator Denis O'Donovan in wishing luck to everyone involved in today's difficult endeavours.

I thank Members in engaging in yesterday's vigorous Private Members' debate on rural transport. That it was followed by the resumption of statements on suicide brought to light the need for the issue of isolation to be debated. The word "isolation" was used often during our two hour discussion on rural transport and the statements on suicide. I hope the House will continue to emphasise the need for rural transport services, particularly for the elderly. During the public consultation committee meetings the issue of providing a taxi voucher or introducing a voucher scheme for the elderly was raised by a number of groups. On the basis of their evidence, the Labour Party believed the matter was important enough to be raised in the House again. We hope to maintain dialogue with the Minister on that matter.

Will the Deputy Leader ask the Minister for Health to ensure that the rural transport budget is allocated as soon as possible? Some of the schemes around the country are in a very uncertain situation and do not know how much or when the moneys will be allocated. I hope this matter will be expedited.

Will the Deputy Leader invite the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, to the House as soon as possible? I understand he and his colleague, the Minister for Finance, are giving a press conference this morning on the details of the fifth EU-IMF report. The Irish Times reports today that the issue of public service increments has been totally dismissed by the Minister, Deputy Howlin, notwithstanding the calls by Fine Gael Party backbenchers to address the issue. Any Minister in Deputy Howlin’s position should not rule anything out given the seriousness of our fiscal situation.

Meanwhile, we have another Labour Party Minister talking about heaping a broadcasting charge on top of the list of charges already being imposed on hard-pressed householders, including the household charge, water charges and septic tank charge, not to mention the increased cost of health insurance as a consequence of off-loading inefficiency and excessive costs in the public sector on to the private sector. It is unconscionable that a greater effort is not being made to ensure savings across the public service. Current public expenditure for 2012 is budgeted to exceed last year's expenditure by €1.4 million. That is irresponsible. The Minister should come to the House to deal with the EU-IMF report and to explain how we will extricate ourselves from these difficulties. As it stands, he is in real danger of becoming the Minister for over-expenditure and no public service reform.

To clarify the issue referred to by Senator Walsh, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources indicated this morning that he is considering a broadcasting charge. Moreover, he made clear that this would not be an additional charge. In other words, any household already paying a television licence fee will not be required to pay any more. It makes sense to replace the licence fee with a broadcasting charge because there are now so many different media through which people can access information provided by the public service broadcaster.

Will the Deputy Leader arrange for a debate on public sector broadcasting? Such a debate should encompass such issues as the mixing of commercial revenue with licence fee income and the excessive fees paid to some broadcasters. The Taoiseach's salary should be a benchmark if not a ceiling for anybody working in the public service. Public service broadcasting has served us very well heretofore, but it is helpful to retract, review and revise every so often.

Will the Deputy Leader indicate whether there will be a debate in this House once the findings of the Moriarty tribunal are published? I commend Mr. Paul Melia and Mr. Michael Brennan of the Irish Independent who, on Tuesday last, 17 January, published details of the cost of the tribunal, which are now running at almost €50 million. The tribunal has created no fewer than 17 millionaire lawyers. Ms Patricia Dillon has earned €5.5 million, Mr. Desmond O’Neill was paid €5.27 million, Mr. Patrick Quinn got more than €5 million——

That is a matter for the tribunal.

These details are a matter of public record through their publication in the Irish Independent. Ms Eunice O’Raw earned €4.2 million and Mr. John Gallagher received €3.21 million.

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?

The Cathaoirleach would have to serve 80 years in this House to equal the remuneration of the top earners. Imagine 80 years in this vineyard.

What is the Senator's question?

Gross amounts of money have been paid. The one man who raised this issue, over and over again, was Senator Jim Walsh. His was a voice in the wilderness, pointing out that, for example, the daily rate of pay for senior counsel at the start of the tribunal was more than €2,250, and €1,500 for a junior counsel. Where else in the world would that level of pay be available?

Those pay levels were sanctioned by the Fianna Fáil Party in government.

(Interruptions).

Senator Leyden to continue, without interruption.

The Taoiseach is more anxious to get rid of this House than he is to get rid of the tribunal.

Will the Senator put a question to the Deputy Leader?

The Oireachtas is being billed for €2 million in respect of the hearings regarding Judge Brian Curtin. That is a scandal. It is about time we had a 90% super-tax on the earnings of lawyers. It is absolutely outrageous how they are ripping off this country. I am aware that the Deputy Leader is some type of lawyer or professor of law. She may have a difficulty in denouncing her colleagues.

I am rising above these comments.

(Interruptions).

What is your question, Senator Leyden?

Will the Deputy Leader give a commitment to the House that the report of the tribunal will, immediately upon its publication, be brought before this House for discussion of its findings? That debate must include consideration of the obscene costs of the tribunal. There should be a tribunal into the tribunal to discover what went wrong.

Although I could not have predicted Senator Leyden's outburst, the issue I wish to raise is somewhat relevant. I noticed recently that Kerry County Council's budget includes a provision for €350,000 to run the coroners office in Kerry. Coroners throughout the country are generally solicitors, with their coroner role merely a part-time sideline, at significant cost to local government. I propose that each local authority area should have one full-time coroner. As I understand it, every local authority currently has at least two, with some, such as Mayo County Council, having three. Should this cost not be defrayed by the Department of Justice and Equality rather than the local authority?

The Senator may not have noticed that No. 10 on the Order Paper is the Coroners Bill 2007 — Committee Stage.

Very good. Will the Deputy Leader indicate when we can expect that Bill to come before the House?

Next June Ireland will host the 50th international Eucharistic Congress, which will involve 25,000 participants from five continents on a daily basis and culminate in a ceremony attended by 80,000 in Croke Park. We have had a long period of reflection in Ireland on church-State relations, particularly between the State and Rome. Many people believe it is now time to move on. It would be helpful if the Taoiseach would consider extending a personal invitation to Pope Benedict to attend this congress, bearing in mind that the former British Prime Minister, Mr. Gordon Brown, did precisely that in 2010 when he facilitated the Pope's successful visit to Britain.

Yesterday more than 60 Oireachtas Members attended a briefing on this issue in the hotel across the road. I was very impressed by that attendance. I ask the Deputy Leader, on behalf of the Seanad, to approach the Taoiseach in this regard. He is a very good man who would like to see something like this happening.

The Seanad could take the lead in this. It can only be good for the welfare of all people on this island if the relationship we have had with Rome down through the years continued. I would be delighted if the Taoiseach would take this opportunity to extend that invitation to Pope Benedict.

I support Senator O'Brien's call for the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, to come to the House for a debate on education. It is not entirely accurate to say that four-teacher schools will lose a full time learning support teacher. Some schools were not entitled to a learning support teacher. This entitlement was based not on the number of teachers but the number of pupils in a school.

It is now. That has changed.

The figure is 105 pupils for a boys' school, 105 for a mixed school and 110 for a girls' school. This is now being changed to five hours per teacher.

I previously raised in this House, in a trade context, the need for Ireland to recognise the National Transitional Council in Libya. Our failure to do so is affecting Irish businesses trying to trade in Libya. When I raised this issue previously, including on the Adjournment with the Minister, Deputy Bruton, I was told that it was premature for Ireland to recognise the National Transitional Council. Last Friday, the British Embassy held a trade and business reception in Tripoli. I received a copy of that invitation by e-mail from a Libyan businessman. It was a huge success for the British which has increased its trade in Libya. The ambassador involved was the Right Honourable Herbert Asquith, grandson of the former Prime Minister. The Libyans want to trade with Ireland and are asking why we will not recognise their National Transitional Council. One goes into the room when there is a mess and helps to tidy it up. One does not wait until the room has been cleaned to go in and ask if one can help. I ask the Deputy Leader to take up with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade the need for Ireland to recognise the National Transitional Council in Libya.

I dtosach báire ba mhaith liom ardmholadh a thabhairt maidir leis an díospóireacht a bhí ann i dtaobh cúrsaí Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta. Gabhaim buíochas leis na Seanadóirí a labhair sa díospóireacht agus leis an Aire Stáit. Tugaim ardmholadh go háirithe do na Seanadóirí a labhair as Gaeilge. Le cúnamh Dé, beidh cúpla duine eile dóibh ann an chéad uair eile.

I ask the Deputy Leader to provide time for a debate on broadcasting and communications in Ireland. Technology changes quickly and it would be interesting to hear the Minister's thoughts on how the industry is expected to develop during the next few years and the Government policy in regard to television broadcasting. Issues such as policy with RTE journalism, private terrestrial stations and the roll-out of Saorview and so on have been discussed on numerous occasions. I am interested in hearing about the role of TG4 in the broadcasting industry and the use by many people in Ireland of iphones, ipods and computers to access material on Netflix which recently entered the Irish market. I would like also if we could in such a debate address the issue of a broadcasting charge, as highlighted recently in the media, the logic behind it and how it sits vis-à-vis current television licences and so on. It is important that the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, come to the House to discuss these issues, in order that we can set out our concerns in regard to the imposition of another charge on households already hit by water, septic and household charges. If the media rumour is true and this charge is to be imposed, its logic should first be explained here.

The issues of service delivery and medical cards were discussed recently in the House. However, the issue of family income support has not been addressed. I have been contacted by a number of constituents about family income support. People in receipt of FIS receive notification of cessation of payments six weeks prior to the date on which it will cease. They are told when they apply for it, that there is a waiting time of 12 weeks for completion of applications and that they should in the interim apply for supplementary welfare, which creates much work for many people. The Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, stated recently that processing medical card applications is being streamlined. Rather than having to fill in a new application form for family income supplement payment every nine months, people should be asked six weeks prior to the date on which payments will cease to provide a statement of affairs, including bank statements and proof of income, in order that their payments can continue.

As has been stated, many people are concerned about how they will meet the new charges introduced. People in receipt of family income supplement are deeply concerned about how they will meet these charges during the time between cessation and recommencement of payments. This is causing great hardship. Delivery of this service must be streamlined. Politicians have a responsibility to ensure this happens. I would welcome a debate with the relevant Minister on this issue. Also, it should be possible in this day and age for these applications to be processed electronically.

I support the call by other speakers for an urgent debate on the issue of broadcasting. The Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, announced on "Morning Ireland" this morning his intention to introduce a broadcasting charge based on advice that many people are watching programmes on ipads and so on, in respect of which they are not obliged to pay a licence fee. I invite the Minister to visit parts of north Sligo, north Leitrim and Donegal where the broadband speed is so slow one can hardly open an e-mail much less viewtelevision.

As rightly pointed out by Senator Jim Walsh, the programme for Government aimed to protect people struggling with mortgage arrears and the economic downturn but all we have witnessed is increased burdens on households, be it septic tank charges for those in rural Ireland or the household charge. It is now proposed to introduce a broadcasting charge despite that many people throughout the country who own a computer and may be able to access e-mail do not enjoy the type of bandwidth to sustain programme viewing. Of all the stealth taxes introduced, one never expected such a stealth tax from the so-called protector of the workers, namely, the Labour Party which has done nothing more than ensure that charge after charge is introduced, thus increasing the burden on struggling families in Ireland.

On the cost of tribunals, I would welcome a debate on the Mahon report as soon as it becomes available. No one in these Houses has exclusivity in terms of aspiring to the highest standards in public office. I recall the lack of debate on the Moriarty tribunal report. It is important to state that Senator Walsh was no less robust in demanding that Fianna Fáil when in government would ensure the costs of tribunals were reduced.

I support the call for a debate on what our public broadcaster provides. The State funds RTE and there is a need to debate what we, as a country, get in return for that funding from, say, TV3?

Like other speakers, I, too, called yesterday for a debate with the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn. On this occasion, I seek a debate with him on the Economic and Social Research Institute study "Growing up in Ireland" which addresses issues such as quality of education, differences between schools and the differences between teaching and learning depending on the social class of a school and on gender. It would be a little naive of us not to think there are differences between schools: there are huge differences between schools. Even children know there are differences between schools. Children learn differently, one size does not fit all and it is right that there should be a difference in approach depending on the child. Moreover, the teacher must be trusted to deliver that. However, I agree there should be broad guidelines in respect of core subjects such as mathematics and I strongly support active methods on foot of the significant body of evidence on that.

I have an allied question for the Deputy Leader. This is a serious matter that she should confirm and should put to the Minister, Deputy Quinn. Is there truth in the rumour that it is the INTO agenda that is driving the changes in, and the cuts to, small rural schools? I consider this to be a highly serious charge that must be debated. The pupil-teacher ratio always has been a plank of the INTO, of which I was a member previously and am an associate member at present. However, I state clearly there is far more evidence to support the proposition that what counts is the quality of teaching and learning. I am sure Senator Jim D'Arcy would support me in this regard.

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?

When Fianna Fáil changed the pupil-teacher ratio, the Senator went ballistic. Is she joking?

Senator Healy Eames to continue, without interruption.

There is a limit——

This is the greatest road to Damascus-style conversion I have ever seen. It is incredible.

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?

I have put the question but I will reiterate it. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, must come into the House and address a debate on the quality of education and a debate on small rural schools. We must protect what is good about our system.

The Irish food and drink industry is our largest indigenous industry. It is also Ireland's largest employer and employs thousands of people. Last year, exports from that sector increased by €1 billion to €8.5 billion, of which the dairy industry contributed €2.66 billion. I call on the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, to arrange an investigation into the recent elections to the council of the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, which has 90 members. Women are the backbone of the dairy industry.

That is a private operation and it is a matter for that industry.

This is a serious issue for the women of Ireland.

We have no control over that. That is a matter for that organisation.

I call on the Minister to investigate and ascertain the reason that democracy in the recent elections to the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association——

That is a matter for that organisation.

Eileen Calnan of west Cork was seriously discriminated against.

The Senator cannot mention names.

I call on the Minister to have an investigation into the matter.

Senator White cannot mention names like that on the Order of Business.

On the issue raised by Senator Ó Murchú of the invitation to Pope Benedict to come to the Eucharistic Congress, this significant event is taking place in Ireland and all Members would be delighted were Pope Benedict to visit Ireland as part of a healing process for many Catholics who have been seriously hurt by the Church's inactivity and inability to deal with issues over the years. I understand from my attendance at a recent meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade that the process dictates the approach would have to come from the Vatican. I heard the Tánaiste, Deputy Gilmore, state that were the Vatican to indicate the Pope was interested in attending, the Government would not be found wanting in issuing that invitation. Will the Deputy Leader confirm with the Tánaiste that this is the position? Everyone would like this event, which is being held in Ireland, to have the highest possible profile because of all the benefits it would have for the country and the people.

I strongly support the call to invite the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, to the House to discuss the proposal he outlined on radio this morning. Members must establish the reason that €25 million in revenue is being lost each year. In addition, they need to know how the revenue collected through the television licence fee is being spent, whether good value for money is being obtained and whether a level playing field exists. In respect of an issue raised by Senator Clune regarding the exorbitant salaries being paid to some people in RTE, Members need to establish whether good value and good bang for our buck is being obtained from the licence fee.

On the call made by Senator Healy Eames in respect of RTE and value for money, I have spoken to some people associated with broadcasting, film making and programming. Members will notice that during the forthcoming summer, RTE will be obliged to broadcast reruns because all the available money will have been diverted to coverage of the Euro 2012 championship and the Olympics. There will be no funds left to develop new programmes. RTE does not appear to have a plan and many people who are not direct employees but who have found work on particular programmes will be let go. Consequently, Members will notice the broadcasting of reruns during the summer. The function of RTE, however, should be to produce home-grown programmes and talent.

I call on the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, to come to the House to explain a report from Donegal to the effect that the council has no power to ban hydraulic fracturing, or fracking. Many county councils have passed motions to ban fracking in their areas of responsibility, but according to a report today from the donegaldaily.com news website, a quote from an unnamed source states it is an utter waste of time because councils do not have the power to outlaw it. Perhaps the Minister might clarify this point. If fracking is being banned by local authorities throughout the country without any effect, the councils should be made aware of that. Alternatively, the Minister, should clarify that if a council bans the practice of fracking, it is banned.

While it is clear there is a degree of dissatisfaction with the Croke Park agreement, it is important to emphasise its positive aspects. For example, it means there is industrial peace in the country and no Member seeks to have public sector workers taking to the streets. It also must be emphasised, however, that managers and public sector workers in general must buy into the Croke Park agreement in a more urgent way to ensure the benefits of the agreement are seen. The problem is that neither Members nor the public at large can discern the benefits of the Croke Park agreement in an expeditious manner. I call on managers and workers generally in the public sector to buy into it. In a manner similar to the decrease in VAT that was introduced for tourism products and other related products, it will be necessary to bring it back to the table if it is not working. Ultimately, the public sector must have an idea of what the private sector goes through. It is accepted in the private sector that there are no pay increases.

The difficulty I have in this regard concerns the increments. I note increments worth €250 million are being paid at a time when the Government is obliged to make some seriously difficult decisions. It strikes me that such increments certainly should be examined and this issue may be slightly separate from the Croke Park agreement itself. I call on the Deputy Leader to suggest that a constructive debate in this regard could be held. Perhaps a consultative debate, similar to that held in this Chamber with the older people, could be held with leaders from the public sector to ask them what they are doing to introduce the reforms suggested under the Croke Park agreement, as well as making constructive suggestions. If this agreement is not working, we must return to the drawing board. Consequently, I seek such a debate.

It would be remiss of Members not to mention Mick O'Dwyer and to congratulate him on his Hall of Fame award.

While I know Michael O'Dwyer, Members do not usually mention names on the Order of Business. The Senator should refrain from mentioning the man's name on the Order of Business.

That is not really what I wished to do.

I was not allowed to mention Eileen Calnan's name. This is discrimination as a Kerry man has been mentioned.

I have just been reminded, rightly so, that the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, has been named Kerryman of the year and Members also congratulate him. There will be a night next March on which he can be duly and properly honoured. The Cathaoirleach might wish to talk about the Mayo man of the year in a minute.

The Senator will not do commercials on the Order of Business. I remind him that we are on the Order of Business.

The subject about which I wish to speak is the wonderful idea of inviting Pope Benedict to Ireland. I have no doubt that the bishops have already invited him to the Eucharistic Congress but it also would be appropriate that the Taoiseach should invite him to visit the country, and no doubt such a visit would happen at that time. I am delighted by Senator Mullins's report of a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade. What the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, said on this matter was extremely helpful.

Contrary to what some outside the Houses appear to believe, relations between Ireland and the Vatican are extremely cordial.

The Senator is codding himself.

I have no doubt that Mr. David Cooney, Secretary General at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and ambassador designate to the Holy See, and the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Charles Brown, have already been in communication with each other. These two men are wonderful, superb diplomats.

They are good bureaucrats.

Everything will fall into place on this issue. I recently had a brief meeting with the Tánaiste and have no doubt that matters are being dealt with in the proper manner. There is no need to make a big ballyhoo of the issue. Matters will settle down and——

Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

I wish to ask the Deputy Leader——

Therefore, the Senator does have a question for the Deputy Leader.

Yes, I was coming to it. The Tánaiste previously indicated to the Leader that he would come before the House to discuss embassies and other diplomatic matters. Will the Deputy Leader indicate when this is likely to happen?

Senators have raised a range of issues and I will try to reply to them to the best of my ability.

Senator Darragh O'Brien requested that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, meet the residents of Priory Hall. I will pass on the Senator's request to the Leader and ask him to communicate with the Minister on it. This matter has been raised in the House on a number of occasions.

The Senator also requested that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, come before the House to discuss the speeches he made in Germany. It is fair to say the Government has, through negotiation, obtained terms in respect of the bailout that are more favourable than those originally agreed. In the context of this matter, Senator Martin Conway sought clarification on the corporation tax rate, on which the Government has made it clear that it is not for turning. As far as the Government is concerned, Ireland's corporation tax rate is non-negotiable. That is the correct stance for which I am sure there is all-party support.

Senator Darragh O'Brien also requested that the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, come before the House for a general debate on education. The Leader has indicated that the Minister will be in the House next week and the following week for the debate on the Education (Amendment) Bill 2012 when some of the issues relating to education may be raised with him.

That Bill is specific in scope.

The Deputy Leader to continue, without interruption.

Like other Senators, I have sought a more general debate on education with the Minister and I am hopeful such a debate will take place in the coming weeks. As stated, the Minister will be before the House next week.

Senator Darragh O'Brien also referred to minority faith schools. He will be aware that last year the Minister established the forum on patronage and pluralism in the primary sector which was set up, with a buy-in by the patrons of all schools, specifically to consider how diversity could be accommodated in the school system. I attended a public meeting of the forum in November and its chairman, Professor Coolahan, made it clear that one of his key concerns was to ensure stand-alone schools in rural areas, even those of a particular faith, would be inclusive of all faiths.

That is not the issue.

I understand a report on the matter is due to be published in coming weeks when I hope the House will be able to engage in a debate on the matter and the Senator and others will be in a position to raise with the Minister the issues about which they are concerned.

Senator Feargal Quinn referred to the sale of Aer Lingus. I agree with him about reports on the sale of State assets and the need to put in place safeguards such as that to which he referred in the context of the State retaining a majority stake in such assets. There may be some further information on this matter when the troika issues its report this afternoon. I agree with the Senator that Aer Lingus is a national icon and that we need to guard the national interest in respect of it.

Senator Cáit Keane referred to National Diabetes Day which I am sure everyone agrees is a commendable initiative. The Senator also raised the issue of mandatory testing for diabetes. However, such testing would have to be carried out with the consent of patients. It would be interesting, from the point of view of prevention, if GPs were requested to ask patients, as a matter of routine, whether they would like to be tested for diabetes.

Senator Denis O'Donovan spoke very eloquently about the tragedy at Union Hall. Our good wishes go to the families of the men who sadly and tragically were lost. Many Senators expressed their sympathy and offered condolences on the Order of Business yesterday. I am sure, however, we all share Senator Denis O'Donovan's concerns and echo his commendation for the search and rescue teams operating at Union Hall and the members of the local community.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe referred to last night's Private Members' debate on rural transport and helpfully pointed to the link between that debate and the public consultation that had taken place in this Chamber on the human rights of older people. The Senator also highlighted the need for joined-up thinking on rural transport, isolation and the need to protect older people.

Senators Jim Walsh, Deirdre Clune, Trevor Ó Clochartaigh, Marc MacSharry, Fidelma Healy Eames, Michael Mullins and Jimmy Harte sought a debate on the household broadcasting charge with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, who has indicated that he is contemplating the introduction of such a charge. A number of Senators referred to it as a new or additional charge, but the Minister has made it clear that it would not be a new charge. It would replace the existing TV licence fee and could prove to be lower. On "Morning Ireland" the Minister referred to the sum of €25 million lost each year because people did not pay the TV licence fee. He also referred to the fact, as did a number of Senators, that many people accessed public broadcasting services through means other than television, namely, via the Internet and other new forms of media, and indicated that this would have to be taken into account. His proposal seems sensible, but I agree with colleagues that it should be the subject of a debate in the House. The Minister has agreed to come before us to engage in a general debate on issues relating to his brief when this matter could be raised with him. A specific date has not yet been arranged for that debate, but the Minister has committed to come before the House for it.

Senators Terry Leyden and Marc MacSharry requested a debate on the Mahon tribunal. I certainly support them in that regard because it would be useful to engage in such a debate. It must be pointed out that the fees about which Senator Terry Leyden was so critical were set by the previous Government. I am also highly critical of them, but I will not rise to the provocation directed my way. Some might interpret the Senator's comments about my professional status as a form of insult, but I will not do so.

I will rise above them.

I thought I was most complimentary to the Senator who is both a very brilliant lawyer and a professor at Trinity College, Dublin.

The Deputy Leader to continue, without interruption.

I have great admiration for the Senator's ability and her qualifications.

The Deputy Leader to continue, without interruption.

I just wanted to clarify the position.

I wish to clarify for the Senator that the legal fees relating to the Mahon tribunal were set by the previous Government and at an outrageous level.

I have great admiration for the Senator in terms of her ability, the qualifications she possesses and the work she does at Trinity College.

The Senator has made his contribution and cannot continually interject.

Let us be clear: I was not questioning Senator Ivana Bacik's ability or anything else.

The Senator should desist.

Senator Ivana Bacik is a fine woman.

I think I will rise above that comment, too.

Senator Tom Sheahan referred to the need to reform the coroner system. As the Cathaoirleach helpfully pointed out, the Coroners Bill 2007 is before the House on Committee Stage. I do not have information on a timeframe for it, but we should try to ascertain when it will be taken.

Senators Labhras Ó Murchú, Michael Mullins and Paul Coghlan referred to the Eucharistic Congress and extending an invitation to the Pope. As Senator Michael Mullins pointed out, there is a protocol relating to invitations of this nature. However, we can certainly raise the matter with the Tánaiste to discover whether it can be progressed.

Senator Jim D'Arcy referred to trade with Libya and recognition of the National Transitional Council of that country. This is an extremely important matter. The Tánaiste has committed to come before the House on 2 February for a general debate on foreign affairs matters. The Senator should raise the issue with him at that stage, particularly as a female doctor who previously lived and worked in this country is serving as Minister for Health in Libya.

She is an Irish citizen and lived in County Meath.

We have a direct link with the members of the National Transitional Council through the woman to whom I refer.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh welcomed, in fluent Irish, the debate which took place in the House yesterday on the Irish language. I wish I could match him in that regard.

Senator Tony Mulcahy referred to health service delivery. It should be possible to seek a debate with the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Shortall, on the issue which has been raised by a number of Senators recently.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames requested a debate on a particular matter with the Minister for Education and Skills. As stated, it is hoped to have a general debate with the Minister at some point.

Senator Mary White referred to the food and drink industry in the context of an issue relating to the Irish Creamery and Milk Suppliers Association. I am aware of that issue and would be concerned about any organisation in respect of which there might be evidence of discrimination. As the Cathaoirleach stated, however, we cannot interfere or comment on particular procedures in individual organisations.

The Minister could investigate the matter in the interests of transparency and democracy.

As stated, I am aware of the case to which the Senator refers. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine has committed to coming next Thursday for a debate on agriculture and food when matters of this nature can be raised with him.

Senator Jimmy Harte spoke about RTE and the broadcasting charge. He also asked that the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources deal with the issue of fracking. When we have a date set for the Minister to come to the House, these issues can be raised with him.

Senator Catherine Noone referred to the Croke Park agreement and called for statements on the issue. We can certainly explore how we can deal with issues such as this without having a Minister appear before the House. The format for today's debate on job creation is very innovative because we will not have a Minister present. The idea is that we pool ideas and avail of the benefit of our expertise in pursuing different careers outside the House and then bring these ideas to the attention of the Minister.

I will not refer to Senator Paul Coghlan's Kerryman of the Year references, but I think I have already dealt with the issue relating to the Tánaiste and the visit of the Pope. The Tánaiste will be in the House on 2 February when we can talk to him about any foreign affairs related issue.

The debate on job creation will take place from 2 p.m. until 5 p.m. and all Senators are invited to contribute. Contributions will be limited to five minutes in order that the maximum number of Members can contribute. We would like the debate to be particularly productive.

Order of Business agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 11.35 a.m. and resumed at 11.45 a.m.
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