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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 2012

Vol. 213 No. 8

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill 2011 — Committee Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 3 p.m., if not previously concluded. Private Members' business will be No. 17, motion No. 7, to be taken at 4 p.m. and conclude not later than 6 p.m. There will be a sos between 3 p.m. and 4 p.m.

I wish to raise two issues. I ask the Leader to provide time for debates on the jobs plan and the new agreement the Government has signed with the IMF. The major issue that appears to be taking up the time of the Government, when it should be focusing on job creation, is the closure of the embassy to the Holy See. The Tánaiste is being completely intransigent in not moving on the decision he took on economic grounds last November, while the Taoiseach and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, echo the views of Fine Gael backbenchers in seeking to have the embassy reopened as soon as possible. There is no clarity on what is happening and there seems to be a huge division among the Government parties. I, therefore, propose an amendment to the Order of Business that the Taoiseach be asked to come to the House to clearly outline the Government's policy on the closure of embassies, with particular reference to the embassy to the Holy See.

Ireland should have a foothold in terms of extensive diplomatic representation around the world. It is not just about economic policy. When Ireland opened the embassy to the Holy See, it was about securing the freedom and recognition of the existence of the State. When Mr. Frank Aiken, born 114 years ago last Monday, signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, it was not about economic policy. His objective was to ensure human rights around the globe and that nations would work together for their betterment. It is incredible, therefore, that the Labour Party would dictate its policy on diplomacy in that way, but its decision is being interpreted in many ways around the country. However, it was never about money.

The project in which Fine Gael is engaged to count the number of seals in the west will probably cost the same amount as is involved in the closure of the embassy to the Holy See, as I exposed yesterday. The Taoiseach and the Minister of State, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, are opposed to this decision, but I am sure Labour Party Members, including Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin and Senator Ivana Bacik, are in favour of it and the Tánaiste will not change his decision. Even Cuba and Russia have embassies to the Holy See in Rome. Why does Ireland not have an embassy there, given our history and culture and the diplomatic necessity for such an embassy? The decision was not thought through properly. There is confusion as to whether the decision was recommended by departmental officials or as part of the comprehensive spending review. We are to maintain embassies in Malawi and Lesotho. Why could the embassy in South Africa not deal with matters in Lesotho?

The decision is one made by the Fine Gael-Labour Party Government, not the troika. It appears we need to invite the Taoiseach to come to the House to explain exactly what is going on between the Government partners, why there is such division and a lack of focus on the job in hand, creating jobs in the economy.

Senator Thomas Byrne accuses the Government of being obsessed with the issue of having an embassy to the Holy See and then proceeds to propose an amendment to the Order of Business at a time when we should, of course, be focusing on job creation. I agree with him that we should have a debate on the jobs plan, for which many of us called yesterday and I think we will be able to facilitate it.

Why has it not been facilitated?

The Senator has called for a debate on the closure of the embassy to the Holy See even though we have already dealt with the issue in the House with the Tánaiste who gave a very clear response. It was a decision taken by the Government. Three missions were closed — the embassies in Iran, East Timor and the Vatican. All of the closures are regrettable, but as the Tánaiste made clear, if and when the economic position improves, they can all be reviewed. Many Members on the other side of the House have been pushing this issue, day after day, to the point of tedium. As I said, we have had the Tánaiste in the House who has given a very clear response.

There are significant differences between the media and Fine Gael.

Senator Ivana Bacik to continue, without interruption, please.

There has been plenty of public debate on the issue. Father Peter McVerry, for example, said that the Vatican should not have embassies there at all. If the Vatican were to relax its own rule and allow embassies in Rome to represent officially in the Vatican, this would be an entirely satisfactory resolution.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I call for a debate on waste and waste management in light of the fiasco across Dublin City Council area resulting from the hand-over of the waste collection services to Greyhound, the lack of information to residents, the confusion over collection dates and the insistence by Greyhound on upfront payments, with the result that we may see thousands of households without bin collection services from this week onwards. The lord mayor, Councillor Andrew Montague, has already been on the radio and he is highly critical of Greyhound. The hand-over of services has proceeded seamlessly in other areas, notably in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, but in the Dublin City Council area it has been very poorly handled. It would be worthwhile to have a debate in this House on the more general issue of waste strategy and waste policy to examine whether this should be a function of officials or of elected representatives. As colleagues know, this was changed relatively recently and clearly there are difficulties with the current procedure where the council had voted against handing over the service to a private operator but the privatisation proceeded with the fiasco that ensued.

I call for a debate on rape law in light of very disturbing reports in the Irish Independent recently about a recent rape case in which certain comments were made by the judge and certain actions were taken against the complainant, the alleged victim, which resulted in a serious trauma being experienced by her. These are very disturbing reports and without going into the details of that case it requires that we re-examine how best we can reform our rape laws and trial procedures to ensure that complainants are not victimised a second time in the courtroom.

My question to the Leader today relates to the growing levels of child poverty here. Ireland is near the top of the table for OECD countries as regards percentage of children living in poverty. Figures for 2011 show that 19% of children live in poverty and 9% of children experience consistent poverty. The OECD has clearly identified that child poverty rates are significantly higher for jobless families than for families with at least one parent in employment but also lone parent households compared to two-parent households. Many more children are at risk from poverty due to the cumulative effect of successive budgets. This means that children in Ireland are living on poor diets, they are missing developmental milestones, they are suffering more ill health, they are struggling at school and they experience increased isolation because they are unable to participate in ordinary childhood activities. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Social Protection to the House to debate how best to tackle growing child poverty and how to reverse this unacceptable trend.

In this regard I have organised a briefing today at 5.30 p.m. in the audiovisual room and I have brought together four organisations, SPARK, Single Parents Acting for the Rights of our Kids, One Family, OPEN and Treoir. They will give a joint briefing to Deputies and Senators on the cumulative effects of the budgets. Child poverty is something of concern to Members on all sides and it is vital that we work together to safeguard the future of our children.

I repeat my call for a general discussion on the economy in light of the apparent decision to sell off part of Bord Gáis. We have been instructed by our economic masters that we have to sell off some of the heirlooms that were carefully built up by various governments and government agencies and utilities.

The Government agreed to do that; the IMF did not ask.

This is a matter which needs to be discussed in this House. We are told now that we may be permitted to use some of this money for reinvestment in jobs. What about the assets? I will table a motion that we re-adopt the Keating principles. I hope the Labour Party will support me on this. The people are entitled to a just proportion of their assets. There seems to be a complete lack of democracy in the macroeconomic sphere and it is repeated in the microeconomic sphere, as Senator Bacik has indicated with regard to the bin charges. This used to be done as a public utility and now it has been privatised, despite and against the express wishes and vote of the elected representatives in Dublin City Council. Again, the people are being neglected and this is utterly wrong.

I refer to the business of the Vatican embassy. It is difficult to see it as a purely economic matter. I find that a little difficult to swallow, the same way as I do not believe the abolition of the Seanad is an economic measure; it does not make sense and the figures are too small.

It will not happen.

However, it interesting that Father Peter McVerry made a point that I, too, have made previously, that there is a certain spiritual danger in the fiction of a state and a state apparatus being sustained by the Vatican. It is not a country. It has accreditation with the United Nations and so on. If one looks at the interventions at diplomatic and UN level, of the Vatican as a state, they are by no means all positive in terms of what are generally perceived as human rights, in particular, with regard to the reproductive rights of women, contraception, AIDS and gay people. When one takes into account the question of human rights, one has to be quite nuanced in one's approach to this question and it should not be used as a banner. I say this, despite the fact that I have recently come across an article where I had said three cheers for Pope John Paul II because of his principled stance on Iraq and the attack on that country.

I have always objected to the primate of my church, the Church of Ireland, being made a member of the House of Lords. I applaud that historically the Church of Ireland was disestablished and I wish they would disestablish the Church of England. The relationship between religion and politics is always toxic.

There have been some very interesting debates in this House recently on the subject of energy and energy supply. The Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill was in the House last week and we had a Private Members' debate on energy. This Monday, Shell and its partners in the Corrib gas field announced that it is to spend a further €800 million supporting 700 jobs in the area to bring natural gas on shore and this is to happen by 2014. Considering that 60% of our electricity supply comes from natural gas I am sure this announcement will contribute towards security of supply. It will be of interest to the Minister and we should continue to discuss energy policy because of its importance for competitiveness, for job security and for the future of industry——

If we only had the opportunity to buy it at market rates.

The Minister is preparing an energy policy in 2012 and I am sure this announcement will feed into that policy, particularly when balanced with the development of renewable energy versus security of supply and the introduction of efficiency into our natural gas energy production. This is an important step which the House should discuss further.

It was a very bad deal done by——

It is 60% of our energy supplies, our electricity supplies.

That is all rubbish.

Senator Walsh to continue, without interruption, please.

I second the amendment to the Order of Business. On a related theme, what has motivated this campaign is the aggressive secularism expressed by some members of the Labour Party. It is interesting that the president of the British National Secular Society recently called upon the former Fine Gael candidate, Mr. John Colgan, to withdraw his complaint to the Garda Síochána with regard to a homily by Bishop Boyce——

The Senator knows well that he is not supposed to name a private individual in the House.

It is well established in the media.

It is not a matter for the Order of Business.

A former Fine Gael candidate——

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

——made a complaint which the president of the British National Secular Society said was utterly ridiculous and that it should be withdrawn——

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Yes, I ask the Leader for a debate on these issues. I ask that the Minister for Justice and Equality be invited to attend. What is happening as a consequence is that Garda time is being frivolously wasted. The Garda Síochána has sent a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions. This is a terrible abuse of time——

That issue should not be raised on the Order of Business.

——considering the number of crimes and organised criminal gangs in Dublin. People are being murdered almost daily and the time of the Garda and the DPP is being wasted on issues where people of a particular ideological bent are using and abusing the system.

As the Senator well knows, the DPP is an independent officer.

I am not complaining about the DPP, as you well know, a Chathaoirligh. I am complaining about the people who are using the system to promote their own minority ideological views and wasting public services that are charged with much more serious responsibilities than these issues. I ask that we would have a debate in the House about the management of Garda time and the management of these matters within the public service.

The Senator is completely out of order. I call Senator Keane.

I could take up where the last speaker finished and talk about a waste of time and the regurgitation we hear in this House, day after day, with the same issues being raised and Members inviting different people in to talk on the Vatican and whatever else. I would like to see Fr. Peter McVerry come to the House, a man whom I respect greatly for all the work he has done in Ireland. This House should honour him.

That is a proposal the Senator can put to the leader of her group.

I will do that. We should also listen to what he said this morning. I want to ask the Leader about the ongoing review of local government. It is a serious review which will result in major changes. We have heard talk of the waste of money in different places. I would like to see a review of local government and the introduction of regulations on postering. We see all the money that is being wasted as well as the environment being harmed due to pole postering throughout the country during any type of election, whether local, national or otherwise. During the by-election in Dublin West, the highest spending candidate spent €33,000——

Not to mention the presidential election.

——not to mention the presidential election, where €500,000 was spent by the highest spending candidate — one of our own.

We had a good candidate to spend it on.

On that point, I would like to see regulations brought in to——

(Interruptions).

Senator Keane to continue, without interruption.

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister to consider introducing regulations, first, to ban pole postering——

That is exciting. This is a democracy.

Excuse me——

Is Senator Keane asking the Leader for a debate?

I am proposing an alternative, that there be——

Is the Senator asking the Leader for a debate on the issue?

Yes, I am asking the Leader for a debate on it, and also that there be community postering with all of the candidates on community——

Those are points that can be made during the debate.

In addition, I ask that the litir um thoghcháin not be separate for every candidate but that there would be one litir um toghcháin with all the candidates. This would cut down——

The next item——

Everyone is talking about it and no one is prepared to cut his or her own cloth. I am asking——

As the next item on the agenda involves the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government the Senator can raise those very issues with him. She is out of time.

I will do that. Obviously, from the reception I have received, no one is prepared to cut their own cloth.

I thank the Senator.

Senator Norris is being disorderly.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an infheistíocht mhór a fógraíodh inné in infreastruchtúr sna Sé Chontae, go háirithe insan chinneadh a tógadh ag an Fheidhmeannacht ó Thuaidh críoch a chur le scéim tógála an A5. I welcome the massive investment announced yesterday in the A5 infrastructure in the North of Ireland. We hope the Government here will reconsider its decision on the investment to finish the motorway into the Donegal region so we can get access to all of the regions in our country.

My specific question to the Minister is one I have raised on a number of occasions. I have not received a specific answer yet, so I had better ask it very clearly and succinctly. The question is in regard to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister of the Six Counties and of the Assembly. We have had some fantastic contributions here from Dr. Mary Robinson and from others who have spoken in this Chamber. It has been suggested that we extend an invitation to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I have asked on a number of occasions whether that has happened but I have not received an answer. I want to be very clear. Has the Committee on Procedure and Privileges issued an invitation to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to come to speak to the Seanad? If it has, is there a timeframe for that? If it has not, is there any particular reason that has not happened and is it the intention of the Leader and the CPP to issue such an invitation?

This would be very fruitful and could put to bed some of the misrepresentations that happen around the debates here regarding the Six Counties and what is actually happening up there. We would welcome it. Bheadh mé iontach buíoch as freagra díreach ar an gceist sin, go bhfeicfimid cá seasaimid le ceist an Chéad Aire agus an Leas-Chéad Aire.

Four Senators have referred to jobs. Before I ask the Leader about another issue, I welcome the announcement today that HCL, a software support company, will provide 200 new jobs in Kilkenny. This is great news and shows the need for a technological university in the south east. It proves that if we have well-educated young people in an area, we will get jobs, particularly in the IT sector.

I ask the Leader for a debate on what I believe is a crisis, namely, the housing issue. Some 98,000 people are currently on housing waiting lists, including 3,000 in my own county of Kilkenny, 2,000 of whom are in Kilkenny city. We all went through the Celtic tiger, which was to solve everything. The housing issue is a failure of the Celtic tiger and is why we are in the situation we are in. The Part V provision was part of the Celtic tiger and was intended to deal with issues such as social inclusion. I always felt Part V would never work. Some councils implemented it in different ways and as housing estates will not be built again in many areas, how will we get people housed? We should have a brainstorming session and a full debate on the housing issue, which would be useful and might allow ideas to emerge.

I remember that in the 1970s and 1980s, when this country was also in recession, local authorities had the money to build houses, which provided employment in the trades. We must examine the situation. Part V is not working. There is the rental accommodation scheme and the social leasing scheme but when houses come on the market, councils cannot afford to buy them because they do not have the money. We must have some lateral thinking on this issue. A debate on the housing crisis would help.

I am a member of a Government party. It was the continuous Government policies implemented in recent years that pushed the housing issue. What we have ended up with following the Celtic tiger is ghost estates and unfinished estates in areas where people are not going to live. To take Kilkenny city, there are only two unfinished estates in the city area and they are unfinished only in regard to roads and the like, and people are living in these estates. However, in other areas of County Kilkenny, there are ghost estates in areas to which people do not want to move from Kilkenny city, although there are 2,000 in the city on waiting lists. A debate on housing would be a useful exercise.

On the closure of the Irish Embassy in the Vatican, the intervention by a former Irish ambassador to the United States is exceptional by any standards. The incisive and supportive editorial in The Irish Times brings this issue very much centre stage. Mr. Seán Donlon was one of the foremost and most highly respected members of the diplomatic service. He served in the United States at a time when relations between Ireland and Britain were at a very low ebb, so he understands the importance and the value of diplomacy. He knows one cannot sideline this as an insignificant issue because we all know that the diplomatic service embraces all aspects of life in a country and spills over into the image of a country, as well as into the area of employment, investment and all of those issues.

I support the motion which has been put forward by Senator Thomas Byrne. I believe at this stage that the quicker we get this issue off the radar, the better for all concerned. We should not be trying to score personal points and we should not get into theological arguments. I do not believe for a moment that the economic arguments stand up. We all know in our hearts that there is now an onus on us, given this issue will not go away.

It would be very helpful if the Taoiseach came into the House to debate this issue. I am sure the Leader will endeavour to help us in that regard. It would be a pity if every second day in this Chamber we have to get up and respond to new revelations which are coming out on this matter. It is not just the editorial in The Irish Times, it is also in the Irish Independent today and in so many other organs as well. I appeal to the Leader to agree to the request that the Taoiseach would come to the House to find whether this matter can be put to bed once and for all.

Senators were briefed yesterday on the subject of hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, by representatives of Tamboran Resources and others. However, a great deal of uncertainty remains as to how the process works, how Tamboran Resources and other companies propose to do business, how they are licensed and at what point certain things must be done. There remains enormous uncertainty, concern and worry surrounding the hydraulic fracturing process itself.

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to come to the House for a debate on this issue? There is concern that decisions will be made before all of the information is heard. This House can contribute to ensuring there is a debate and that this information is put in the public domain. We must have an opportunity to put those questions to the Minister which are concerning not just citizens but other companies as well. I am particularly interested in a clarification of the licensing procedure. The Minister has said he is considering a change in the tax regulations for onshore drilling. That has raised concern in the sector and among citizens.

I join Senator Cáit Keane in calling on the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come to the House for a debate on reform of local government. I was present, together with Senators Denis Landy and Ned O'Sullivan, at a meeting in Cavan at the weekend where the Minister addressed the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland, AMAI, conference, which was attended by more than 400 delegates. Although the Minister made an excellent speech, it left us with more questions than answers. For example, he seemed to indicate that the future of town councils is safe, before going on to elaborate on how he envisages new district councils representing towns.

Will the Minister come to the House to clarify precisely what he is proposing? He has said he will outline his blueprint within eight weeks, but it is important that he addresses the issue in this House. He should also clarify his reported proposal to reduce the number of councillors elected at the next local election. It is not acceptable for him to bring proposals to Government and then issue a statement to the media before he has addressed both Houses regarding his proposals. I ask the Leader to facilitate such a discussion without delay.

With respect, colleagues and friends opposite are overly labouring the matter of the closure of the Irish Embassy to the Vatican.

"Labouring" is an excellent word.

An excellent turn of phrase.

There was no withdrawal of an ambassador, no breakdown in diplomatic relations and a review of the decision is under way. We should be patient and avoid getting carried away. Senators opposite know well what is happening.

Does Senator Coghlan have a question for the Leader?

I wish to apologise to the Cathaoirleach. Yesterday, unfortunately, I used an inappropriate word, which I did not intend to do. I apologise for that slip of the tongue. I clearly meant to say "jack in the box".

I support the proposal of my constituency colleague, Senator Susan O'Keeffe, in regard to hydraulic fracturing. It is now becoming apparent that not only is there uncertainty and confusion surrounding the licensing process for this new technology, which involves extracting gas from underground rock, but the current regulatory environment, not only as it applies to this country but also across Europe, in regard to onshore drilling of gas is totally inadequate. It is this concern more than anything else that is exercising the minds of those who are opposed to the concept in its entirety.

While we as parliamentarians and public representatives will continue to press the point that the process works, I am now of the opinion that it is open to question. It is a relatively new technology, only some ten to 15 years in operation, and we all heard the horrific stories coming out of the United States. As such, I support Senator O'Keeffe's proposal. Clarity must be brought to this issue without delay. Among those who braved the elements yesterday to travel from the north west, including from my own county of Leitrim, to protest at the gates of Leinster House, the conclusion was that irrespective of what regulatory regime is introduced, the concept of hydraulic fracturing cannot be adequately monitored in order to ensure there is no injurious environmental impact to the grounds in which the extraction is taking place. While it has been seen as a regional issue thus far, it is one that will not go away. Unless the Government takes this in hand now and begins to offer some clarity, we could end up with another Rossport. That is an outcome no one wants.

Yesterday I spoke about three people I met at the weekend who intend to emigrate to Australia. Some 100 young people have departed from the village of Kilmihil in my constituency in recent years. I assure colleagues on the other side of the House that none of those 100 gives a toss whether we have an embassy in the Vatican. It is an outrage that all we can talk about in this House, day in and day out, is the closure of that embassy. It is a further outrage that we have an amendment to the Order of Business on this matter. What is even worse is that the party leader of the Members concerned is making a huge issue of it in the other House as well.

We need to grow up. Our relationship with the Catholic Church has taken a hammering; everyone accepts that. What we need to do now is to rebuild it. Having an embassy in the Vatican when there is already an embassy one mile down the road is a complete waste of resources. Just because other countries have an embassy there, just because The Irish Times tells us we should have an embassy there——

Just because the Minister of State, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, says it should be reopened.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I am coming to it. Furthermore, it is a pity that parliamentarians from all sides of the House are fixated on this issue when the country is broke and taking dictation from the EU and IMF. We need some realism when it comes to this.

Will the Leader allow a debate on the jobs initiative, with a specific slant on rural job creation? As I mentioned at the beginning of my contribution, I come from an area——

The Senator has moved on to a second issue.

——from which hundreds of people have emigrated. The jobs initiative is a very welcome development, but I ask for a debate specifically on the rural dimension of job creation.

If Senator Conway's words were to be followed by Ministers, the foreign aid budget would be demolished. The majority of Irish people, never mind members of the Labour Party, would not agree with that.

What about Fr. Peter McVerry?

Senator Ó Domhnaill to continue, without interruption.

The withdrawal of the resident ambassador to the Holy See is a retrograde move which leaves the State out of step with most of Europe.

Giving away our sovereignty was the retrograde step.

Most countries have their own sovereignty.

Members must allow Senator Ó Domhnaill to continue.

If Senators on the other side of the House disagree with the reinstatement of the embassy, let them say so publicly instead of shouting across the floor when Members are trying to make a contribution.

Does Senator Ó Domhnaill support the amendment?

Yes. Today, a high powered British political delegation will visit the Vatican and meet his Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, to discuss British relations with the Vatican, including issues such as human rights, the environment and climate change, and a raft of economic development issues between Britain and the Holy See. The fact that we do not have that perceived level of support from this Government to the Vatican leaves Ireland in a very vulnerable position.

The Senator can raise those issues during the debate.

While people may have religious views on this issue, the Vatican is an important economic hub. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade report recommended the withdrawal of embassies to two countries, Iran and East Timor. However, the Labour Party leader, Deputy Gilmore, decided to add a third, the embassy in the Vatican.

It was a Cabinet decision.

It was not a recommendation from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. It was a cold political decision aimed at saving money. I am not convinced that the moneys saved will be of benefit, taking into consideration all of the economic losses to this country and the loss of diplomatic relations with the Vatican, which are now very important, not least for the victims of child clerical abuse here.

The Senator is over time.

If we have a moral conscience and want to represent the views of those victims in a constructive manner, we should not break down diplomatic relations with the Holy See at this important time for them.

I appeal to the Members on all sides to stop making a political football out of——

The Senator should tell that to his colleagues.

It was not an economic but a political decision to close it down.

Does Senator Mullins have a question for the Leader?

All the arguments——

What are the Fine Gael backbenchers saying?

Senator Mullins to continue, without interruption, please.

(Interruptions).

Does Senator Mullins have a question for the Leader?

Yes. All the arguments on this issue have been made at this stage. The Tánaiste indicated yesterday that when the economic and financial circumstances improve, he will take another look at this. Almost two months ago I asked the Tánaiste at an Oireachtas committee meeting to consider, as a money saving exercise, the possibility of using the Villa Spada to house the two embassies. The Tánaiste indicated to me at that stage that he would look at that proposal. He has recently reiterated that statement. Rather than raising this issue every morning, Members should allow time and space for review and consideration of the matter. I agree with other speakers that there are major issues to be confronted in this House.

I support the call by my colleague, Senator Pat O'Neill, for a full debate on housing. There is a crisis in the local authorities in terms of huge waiting lists. We are not in a position to provide housing. We need to look at all the options, including the value for money we are getting from rent supplements and so on.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I support Senator O'Neill's request and ask that the Leader organise a full debate on all aspects of local authority housing into the future, including how we can get the best value for money.

While listening to a radio interview the other evening I heard the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, in somewhat of a Freudian slip, refer to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform as the Minister for Howlin. I must admit that I am howling now myself about something that has been brought to my attention. At a time when we are undergoing a public service embargo, when there are cutbacks in every part of the health service and social services, when there are hiring freezes to replace people who have taken Government incentivised early retirement and there is real danger that critical parts of the lubrication of our social democracy may be gunged up by a shortage of front-line workers, the Public Appointments Service has been for several days advertising for temporary clerical worker positions at a modest salary which is just shy of €20,000 per annum. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform to clarify the scale of priorities. At a time of shortage with regard to doctors, nurses, social workers, physiotherapists, lengthening waiting lists for elective health care procedures, a deliberate policy of restricting access to medical cards by a number of bureaucratic manoeuvres based around complications in the renewal process — which I know the Minister is addressing — and when it is generally recognised that we have a super abundance of bureaucratic staff in the HSE and health service who are in their jobs because of a failure to rationalise on the integration of pre-existing health boards into a solitary state bureaucracy, rather than redeploying people to areas where they are clearly needed, these temporary positions are being advertised.

The average tax take per citizen is €7,650. This means that the entire income tax of three people will be used to support these new temporary positions. This is unsatisfactory. It speaks to a failure to come to grips with the need to reform our public service. I ask that the Leader bring this matter to the attention of the Minister, Deputy Howlin.

An escalating problem in Kerry and, I presume, all over Ireland is the noise and disturbance being caused by what are known as "boy racers" and, in some cases, "girl racers". This problem is being caused by young people in general. While I appreciate that these young people love their cars, do not drink and drive or take drugs this problem is causing fierce disturbance to the elderly, people with young children and working people who cannot sleep at night. I ask that the Leader ask the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, to come to the House for an open debate on how best to deal with this problem.

I, too, support the amendment to the Order of Business. I also support Senator Ó Domhnaill's remarks in regard to our obligations to the victims of child abuse, in respect of which my record is well known. At a time when we are trying to get answers from the Holy See in terms of its role in the cover-up in this regard, the withdrawal of an embassy is not a positive step. The Ireland Stand Up organisation will appear before the Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade——

There is no withdrawal.

Senator Daly to continue, without interruption.

I did not hear Senator Coghlan's comment but I hope he was not calling me what he was calling other people yesterday. Ireland Stand Up will appear before the foreign affairs committee in the near future. I agree with colleagues opposite that the Vatican issue while important is not more important than the issue of jobs and the jobs plan. While the Government previously promised a jobs budget, we got a jobs initiative. The initiative was its raiding of private pensions. No Minister can tell us how many jobs have been created following that raid on private pensions.

The Government proposes to sell off Bord Gáis, some of the proceeds of which will be used to create jobs. If the Government cannot tell us how many jobs were created following its raid on private pensions why then are we being told the proceeds from the proposed sale of Bord Gáis will be used to create jobs? Ministers have been telling us that it is not the job of the Government to create jobs.

On what matter is Senator Daly looking for a debate?

On the issue of job creation. Government red tape is preventing the creation of jobs in several areas. It is not money but our processes that are failing us. If we cut the red tape, more jobs will be created. We do not need to keep injecting money into this, rather we need to cut the red tape.

That is what Government has been doing.

Senator Daly's party wrapped us up in this mess.

Under the new personal insolvency Bill, insolvency trustees are to be appointed. I have checked with all third level colleges and have not come across any course one could take which would qualify one as an insolvency trustee. I ask that the Leader seek clarification from the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, on what qualifications will be required in this regard and if qualified arbitrators and mediators will be eligible for these posts and, if so, how they will be selected.

Yesterday Senator Bacik took issue with me for questioning the Tánaiste's bad judgment. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to his good judgment on one particular issue.

I note that, unlike the Taoiseach, it is likely he will raise human rights issues when he meets the Chinese Vice President, Mr. Xi Jinping, this weekend. However, I regret to learn that there is no provision for questions from the media to the Chinese leader. This man will become President of the People's Republic of China next year and I regret to learn that the Taoiseach has no intention of raising such issues. At a time when we are economically vulnerable, it would be easy to give in to arguments that we should pipe down and simply take whatever economic friendship is being offered. However, Ireland must not lose its soul when it comes to being a courageous voice for human rights and human dignity. The Tánaiste should take a leaf from the book of the actor, Christian Bale, who recently tried to visit Chen Guangcheng, a man who is blind but who sees more than most. He helped to expose the practice of forced abortion in parts of rural China and for his courage was imprisoned. Moreover, he and his wife were reportedly beaten recently when human rights groups released videos showing intense police surveillance of his home. This is part of the daily reality for many in China. It is important, therefore, that Ireland as a small country maintain its voice.

Incidentally, standing up for people in the developing world and human rights is an issue on which there has been constructive co-operation with the Holy See during the years. While I understand the Government's embarrassment on the issue, I seek an assurance from the Tánaiste that he is raising with the Vatican the possibility of the co-location of embassies. Has he formally raised this issue and, if not, when will he so do? This is a useful specific question that should be asked and he need not come into the House to answer it, as Members would gladly receive a report from the Leader or Deputy Leader.

I will give the Senator the answer now.

Senator Rónán Mullen to continue, without interruption.

Has the Tánaiste already done so or when will he raise the specific issue of the possible co-location of embassies, as distinct from having just one ambassador which everyone agrees is not a runner? However, on the possibility of having two ambassadors operating from the same residence, has this question being asked of the Vatican and, if not, when will it be?

Members are probably not fully aware of or do not fully realise the significance of the visit to Ireland this weekend by the Chinese Vice President, Mr. Xi Jinping. I look forward to meeting him on Monday in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, at the China Investment Forum. Moreover, I hope a bilateral investment agreement will be signed this weekend between our two countries to attract foreign direct investment from China. This mechanism is in place in countries such as the United Kingdom, Germany and France which are benefiting hugely from it. Trade and investment between our two countries does matter. In response to Senator Rónán Mullen, this is the ideal way to build relations on a human rights front also. One achieves nothing unless one is in a relationship which is the way forward.

It is an event of huge significance. I compliment the Government, in particular the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, on the programme of activities laid on this weekend for Mr. Xi Jinping and his 150 strong delegation.

Perhaps it might be shared with the Opposition.

It includes events such as a rendition of "Riverdance"— I almost said "dinner dance"

I am sure that will happen also.

In addition, Mr. Xi Jinping will visit Croke Park to see our national games.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

No, a Chathaoirligh, being in opposition, Members are delighted with the information provided.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames to continue, without interruption.

Members must keep China on the agenda of the Seanad. Following the visit the Leader should arrange a major debate on how relations between Ireland and China are being advanced. On 23 March I am due to host a conference in NUI Galway on this very issue. This story——

As there can be no advertisements in the House, I ask the Senator to conclude.

(Interruptions).

This is wonderful news. The Senator should tell Members more.

I ask Senator Fidelma Healy Eames to conclude as she is over time.

This story will go on.

First, I welcome the visit by the Chinese delegation to Ireland, which is extremely important. As lord mayor of Cork, I had the privilege of visiting Shanghai in 2003 or 2004, but I was criticised for so doing, in the same way that Senator Rónán Mullen has now raised the issue. One figure people forget to mention is that in the past ten years 150 million people have been raised above the poverty line in China. No other country has achieved this feat. While I agree that human rights issues should not be ignored, one should also consider the positive achievements within that country.

It might be appropriate, when Members debate the jobs issue, to consider how we can strengthen further Ireland's contacts with China. I had the privilege of setting up and being involved in the establishment of contacts between University College Cork and two universities in Shanghai, on foot of which there is an exchange of students between the two colleges. Irish students travel to Shanghai to study for 12 months, in the process becoming familiar with what is required to work and set up a business in China. Chinese students come here to ascertain what it is like to work in Ireland. This initiative started six or seven years ago and is now bearing fruit. Such long-term planning is needed in Ireland. One measure being taken is to ensure such contacts in China can grow. It is a huge and growing market, of which in the next few years Ireland must receive a bigger slice to create jobs here. It would be appropriate to include such a consideration in any debate in the House on the jobs plan.

Yesterday Senator Susan O'Keeffe held a highly interesting and highly educational session in the audiovisual room on hydraulic fracturing or fracking. I found it fascinating and support her call today for a debate on the subject. Perhaps the Leader might be willing to include the issue of nuclear power in such a debate, as these are subjects that are never or seldom discussed. Those with any logic who had been opposed to hydraulic fracturing were able to seek a balance. I do not state I am in favour of it but that I found the session to be educational and suggest a debate on the subject in this Chamber would be worthwhile.

On my way to Leinster House today I saw a man on a bicycle who was wearing a mask on his face. I realised he probably wore it to protect himself from fumes and then realised we do not encounter fumes on the road anymore, which I assume is due to the work of the national car testing, NCT, system, which has been hugely successful. This serves as a reminder that we can do things, whether through measures such as the introduction of the NCT or something else. Although carbon monoxide poses a danger, it is a problem that is capable of being solved. In recent years there have been some serious incidents in homes involving carbon monoxide, including deaths. Members should, therefore, encourage or demand or institute legislation to ensure the future installation of carbon monoxide detectors in all homes.

Senator Thomas Byrne, acting Leader of the Opposition, mentioned the jobs plan. As I indicated yesterday, I will endeavour to have the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, come to the House to discuss it. The Senator also mentioned the fiscal compact. It has been agreed to have a debate for a number of hours in the House to enable Members to make a contribution on it. There will be a presentation by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service beforehand to inform Members on all aspects of the fiscal compact and the treaty.

I also mentioned the IMF agreement.

Members have engaged a number of times in comprehensive discussions in the Chamber on the Irish Embassy to the Holy See, including the occasion on which the Tánaiste attended. To respond to the question asked by Senator Rónán Mullen and others, the Holy See has clear requirements in respect of the separation of embassies to the Holy See from those to Italy. According to these requirements, the same person is not permitted to be simultaneously accredited as ambassador to the Holy See and Italy. Neither can any member of the staff of the embassy to the Holy See be accredited to Italy at the same time. The Holy See insists on an ambassador to the Holy See maintaining a separate residence from that of his or her country's ambassador to Italy. Embassy offices must operate from separate buildings and addresses but some flexibility is developing in respect of their proximity. All such possibilities will be fully explored in the context of the ongoing review of the diplomatic network. That is the position as matters stand.

Our ambassador designate to the Holy See, Mr. Cooney, has travelled to Rome on at least two occasions since his nomination in order to attend meetings with Vatican officials. In the context of the fact that representatives from other countries are having meetings in the Vatican, our ambassador will be accredited in May. He will represent the State at the consistory of cardinals on Saturday next. On his previous visit he attended the ordination of the incoming papal nuncio to Ireland, Archbishop Charles Brown. There is ongoing contact between our ambassador designate and the Holy See. The Government will continue to review Ireland's diplomatic network, particularly as the financial position improves.

We will be seeking to see his hotel bills in due course.

I have outlined the position on this issue on quite a number of occasions.

We can ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to investigate the matter.

I do not propose to accept the amendment to the Order of Business, which suggests that the Taoiseach be obliged to come before the House today. The Taoiseach is in the Dáil, as is the case every Wednesday, and when he leaves it he will be departing on a very well publicised trip to the United States in order that he might promote investment in and tourism to Ireland. He will also be delivering the message that this country is open for business and investment. That is what he should be doing.

Senator Bacik referred to waste management. We will try to arrange for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come before the House to address that matter. The specific issue to which the Senator refers relates to Greyhound, the private operator, and Dublin City Council, the local authority. That issue should be dealt with by the latter, as has been the case in almost every other local authority area throughout the country.

The Senator also referred to the law on rape. I will endeavour to arrange for the Minister for Justice and Equality to come before the House for a debate on that matter.

Senator van Turnhout requested a debate on child poverty. We will certainly endeavour to arrange for the Minister for Social Protection to become before the House to discuss that matter. The Minister has appeared in the Seanad on a number of occasions to deal with social welfare legislation. I am sure a number of issues relating to child poverty were addressed on such occasions. However, I am also sure the Minister would be quite willing to come before us again. On 7 March we are due to engage in a debate with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, on a wide range of topics relating to children and their interests. There may be an opportunity for the Senator to raise the issue of child poverty with the Minister on that date.

Senator Keane referred to a ban on the placing of posters on poles. As the Cathaoirleach stated, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will be coming to the House to take Committee Stage of the Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill 2011 immediately after the Order of Business. Perhaps the Senator might take the opportunity to discuss the matter to which she refers with the Minister at that point.

Senator Clune referred to energy supplies and policy and Senators O'Keeffe, Mooney and Quinn raised the issue of fracking in Leitrim and other areas. The Minister addressed that matter in the House on two previous occasions. If, however, Members believe it is necessary to engage in a further debate on it, I will ask the Minister to come before us again.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh referred to the A5 and the £300 million in funding which the British Government has invested in the project. We would love to be in a position to invest a similar amount. When money becomes available, I am sure that the necessary works will be carried out on the part of the A5 which is located on this side of the Border.

Invitations have not been issued to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland to address the Seanad. However, consideration will certainly be given to this matter. A meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges took place yesterday and there is a list of ten people whom Members would like to be invited to address the House. The matter is under review.

Senators O'Neill and Mullins referred to housing policy and housing waiting lists. The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, is due to come before the House for a wide-ranging debate on housing and housing policy on 28 March next.

Senator Wilson requested a debate on local government reform. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, came before us in the past two weeks to discuss the issue of local government. He will be presenting proposals on the matter to the Cabinet and I presume these will be the subject of an immediate debate in the Seanad when they have been published. I will endeavour to have the Minister present in the House for that debate.

Senator Conway referred to jobs and the need to address the rural dimension of the jobs strategy. That matter certainly will be addressed when the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, comes before the House, I hope in the next week or two.

Senator Crown sought clarity in respect of the hiring of temporary clerical assistants at a time when there are so many other vacancies in the system. I will raise that matter with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, and then revert to the Senator in respect of it.

Senator Moloney referred to boy racers. I understand the Garda has many powers in respect of this issue and also with regard to noise pollution. In that context, the matter should be addressed with the force. The Minister for Justice and Equality who came before the House just last week is a regular visitor here and on the next occasion on which he appears, the Senator may address to him her questions on the matter to which she refers.

Senator Daly referred to jobs. Some 6,500 jobs were created in the hospitality and tourism sector on foot of the jobs initiative. The Senator requested a specific figure and I have provided it.

Senator Sheahan referred to the proposed personal insolvency Bill and requested clarification in respect of the qualifications those to be appointed as insolvency trustees will be expected to possess. I will raise that matter with the relevant Minister and obtain the information the Senator is seeking.

Senators Mullen, Healy Eames and Colm Burke referred to the visit of the Vice President of China. As is the case with other countries, our trade with and the investment from China are extremely important. As Senator Colm Burke stated, we should acknowledge the positive developments which have taken place in China. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade has indicated that he will raise the question of human rights with the Vice President during his visit. It is wonderful that the Vice President is visiting Ireland and, as Senator Healy Eames indicated, it is important that we do our best to promote trade and investment between our two countries.

Senator Quinn referred to the putting in place of carbon monoxide detectors in people's homes. That is an important matter and perhaps it could be dealt with in the context of our debate on housing with the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan.

On a point of clarification, did the Leader indicate that Private Members' business would be No. 17, motion No. 7?

Senator Byrne has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That the Taoiseach make a statement to the House today on the closure of the Irish Embassy to the Holy See." Is the amendment being pressed?

On the basis of what the Leader said in respect of the Taoiseach's movements today, I will not press it. However, the issue remains.

Order of Business agreed to.
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