Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 1 May 2012

Vol. 215 No. 2

Order of Business

Senator Maurice Cummins

The Order of Business is No. a1, Sustainable Energy Act 2002, (Section 8(2)) (Conferral of Additional Functions — Renewable Energy) Order 2012 — Referral to Joint Committee on Communications, Natural Resources and Agriculture, on the Supplementary Order Paper, to be taken without debate, and No. 2, Report of the Advisory Group to the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary School Sector: Statements and Questions and Answers, to be taken at 3.45 p.m. and to conclude no later than 5.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes, which can be shared, the contribution of one Sinn Féin Senator not to exceed four minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed one minute when asking questions of the Minister.

For the advance notice of the House, I advise we will have a special session to mark Europe Week, with the Minister of State with special responsibility for European affairs in attendance, on Thursday, 10 May. On the same day we will also commence the Second Stage debate on, what I am sure many Members will agree is important legislation, the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012. For the advice of the House, other legislation to be scheduled in the coming weeks include Remaining Stages of the Competition (Amendment) Bill, the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Bill, the Companies (Amendment) Bill, the Animal Health and Welfare Bill and the Statute Law Revision Bill. For the information of the House, there will be no sitting next Tuesday, 8 May, and the House will not sit the week of the referendum.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I thank the Leader for outlining the legislative programme. Last week, I asked Senator Bacik in her role as Acting Leader about the timing of the referendum campaign. I welcome this and all of us as individuals or as members of our parties should use that week to canvas in a very constructive manner for a "Yes" vote.

I commend everyone who contributed to the debate on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill. Our spokesperson, Senator Paschal Mooney, thanked the Minister. While there are many areas in the Bill with which Fianna Fáil did not agree, the debate over the two and a half days it took place was very considered and showed very clearly the breath of knowledge and experience in the Seanad. I thank the Leader for allowing the level of time and commitment shown by the Minister. It shows when time is given to important legislation, the Seanad has a crucial role. It gave me great pleasure to partake in the debate even though I did not agree with everything that was being said. I am sure the same can be said for everyone.

I welcome the fact that the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs will come to the House on Europe day. I will preface my remarks by stating again that I and my party are fully supportive of the "Yes" campaign for the upcoming referendum on 31 May. However, I have grave concerns about the manner in which the campaign is being approached by some members of the Government as it is far from helpful. I was shocked to hear the interview with the Minister for Finance this morning.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

This is not the way. The Minister stated a "No" vote in the EU treaty referendum will mean a "dramatically more difficult" budget in December. This is not the case because we are in the programme and the budgetary process has been set. I have stated consistently that if we speak about the treaty we should speak about its merits——

Senator Mary M. White

Hear, hear.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

——and the treaty itself and the fact it will give us economic stability and access to funds should we require it. The Government should not be threatening people——

Senator David Norris

Bullying.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

——by stating if there is a "No" vote they will pay more tax and have more cuts and austerity. While I have much regard for the Minister, this follows other comments made by the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, and the Minister, Deputy Coveney. With four weeks to go, I ask the Government very simply to be aware the treaty itself has many merits and we should stick to these. We should stick to the scorecard and access to the ESM should we require further funds but cannot go back to the markets. This is what we are about. While I respect their views, those on the "No" side have no alternative to this.

The Minister for Finance should not be threatening people by stating if they do not vote for the treaty they will have a "dramatically more difficult" budget this December. I feel very strongly about this and it should be stopped immediately. It follows the remarks, which I will not quote because they cannot be substantiated, reportedly made at a Fine Gael meeting where the Minister, Deputy Coveney, stated they would get tough if it looked like the campaign was not going the way it should. It behoves all of us on the "Yes" side to present a positive message to inform people about what the treaty is about and not about. This is just a part of the jigsaw; it is not the panacea to all our ills. God Almighty, do not go threatening the Irish people by stating if they vote "No" the sky will fall in.

Senator Paul Coghlan

That was not said.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

Sorry, but I feel very strongly about this. Whether the Leader agrees with the Minister for Finance or not I ask him to bring back my view on this as someone who is very positive towards the treaty and who will vote "Yes". I will also write to the Minister for Finance on this. The Government needs to get the information campaign up and running. When will it begin? When will the citizens of the State have information on the treaty? I ask the Government to stay positive on it and not threaten people with the consequences of a "No" vote because it will not work.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I extend a welcome to former Senator Mary Henry, who was in the Visitors Gallery but whom I think has just stepped out.

Senator David Norris

If not, she is a lot smaller.

Senator Ivana Bacik

Many of us have already been canvassing in the treaty referendum campaign and I acknowledge Senator O'Brien's comments and statements of support for the treaty. I know he has already been canvassing also. In my experience, people are very keen to obtain information and detail about the content of the treaty. There is very much a receptiveness to information. The arguments have not yet crystallised in people's minds as we are still at the stage of gathering information. The Labour Party and Fine Gael posters went up this morning and we are seeing the start of the real referendum campaign which I very much welcome. I also welcome the announcement that we will not sit during the week of the referendum. It is very helpful to all of us who will be campaigning.

I echo what Senator O'Brien stated about the debate on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill which was very constructive. There were fundamental disagreements on issues but everyone was in agreement on the overall goals of the Bill and the need for social welfare reform. The ideas and suggestions put forward were very helpful. In light of that debate, I call for a debate on child care in the coming months with the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, to speak specifically about preschool child care and an issue we teased out in the debate on the Bill which is the increased provision of after-school child care. It would be very helpful to address these issues.

In this light I express great concern about the reports over the weekend of a 16-year-old girl who was excluded from school when she became pregnant. I know the story is in the public domain and that the Minister has expressed his concern about it. Later we will have a debate on the report of the Minister for Education and Skills on patronage in primary schools but it is clear there is an issue about the control and running of secondary schools which needs to be addressed when such appalling treatment of a young girl occurs.

I call for a debate on prisons in light of the launch of the Irish Prison Service's three-year plan. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, announced a very welcome programme of structured community release to try to address the serious problems of recidivism where we see people returned time and again to prison where they receive no rehabilitation and are simply released to re-offend. The idea of the structured community release and integrated sentence management being pioneered through the Prison Service is long overdue and is something we could usefully debate in the House. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality is also working on it. When the committee reports on it in October, it might be worth debating it.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

I congratulate Senator Bacik on the Civil Registration (Amendment) Bill and the House will debate Committee Stage today. It shows not only the perseverance but the time it takes for such a small but very important Bill to be introduced and go through the Houses. It started as a Private Members' Bill in 2011 and shows how the Seanad can initiate good legislation.

What is the expected schedule for the forthcoming constitutional convention? Is it proposed to be initiated prior to the summer recess? There is broad acceptance and agreement among the Government parties on it. As we approach this Seanad's first anniversary it may be appropriate to ask the Taoiseach to come to the House to debate the principles behind the constitutional convention.

Senator David Norris

I thank my colleagues for their generosity in allowing me to go first on this occasion. It shows the true democratic spirit in our group.

An Cathaoirleach

You are the leader today, Senator.

Senator David Norris

I agree with Senator Bacik about the situation of this young woman. I do not know the identity of the school, I do not know the girl's name and I do not want to know it. However, it means we need a debate on the relationship between the church and the State. I understand the school is State funded but is managed in a highly individualistic way. One might ask, as the nuns used to tell their students to ask, what the Blessed Virgin Mary would have done in those circumstances. She was an unmarried mother. Would the school have kicked her out as well? It is astonishing that a church that proclaims a particular ethos should do this. Added to this is the attempt by a foreign state to silence a professional journalist in this country, Fr. Brian D'Arcy. That is extremely worrying.

I realise the question of the privileges of the confessional is sensitive and complex, and I look forward to dealing with that as well as the question of the confidential relationship between lawyers and clients and so forth. However, a leading member of an association of priests said he would not accept this from any Minister, especially Deputy Alan Shatter. Would the Leader be kind enough to ask that gentleman what he meant by "especially Alan Shatter"? Was it anything to do with his religion? I do not have a particularly warm relationship with Deputy Shatter but I deprecate any implication of anti-Semitism, and if there was such it should be withdrawn.

I refer the Leader to No. 8 on the Order Paper, taking the Order of Business in the House seriously and ensuring that other committees are not rendered quorate by free range Members of the Seanad allowing them to become quorate when they clash with meetings of this House. We must establish that this House should be treated with respect.

I strongly welcome the planning permission for the development in Athlone for a hub for Chinese business. This is very positive. We must examine it carefully. There should be a major bond given to provide for difficult circumstances.

I could not agree more with Senator Darragh O'Brien. I was shocked to the core when I heard the Minister for Finance say that if we do not vote the way the Government wants, there will be a hard budget. That is basically what he said. It was nothing other than sheer bullying and scaremongering. I know the Irish people and they will react very badly to that. It is not the first time it has been tried by this Government and it is about time it stopped. It has inspired me to be more opposed to the treaty and I probably will canvass against it.

Can we have a discussion about the fact that a number of councils in Dublin have decided to go to English sources for books because of the economies of scale? They are putting Irish people out of work as a result. Perhaps it might be more appropriate to discuss it as an Adjournment matter but I ask the Leader to look into this in advance of that Adjournment debate. Sometimes one gets greater meat if both sides understand the motivations of the other.

Senator Tom Sheahan

With regard to the treaty, it is the stability treaty. I am surprised by my esteemed colleagues on the opposite side. If we do not pass this treaty, it will cause instability. If there is instability in this country, it will affect inward investment. Who will invest in a country that is labelled unstable and where there is no stability?

Senator David Norris

It is not unstable.

Senator Tom Sheahan

It will affect the stability of the country and the economy——

Senator David Norris

It sure will.

Senator Tom Sheahan

It will have a negative effect on growth and job creation. Hence, the deficit will not shrink and therefore there will be a tougher budget. This is simple budgetary economics.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

That is not true.

Senator Tom Sheahan

If we do not have growth through job creation and inward investment, it will be necessary to have a tougher budget. The Minister is dealing with facts.

Senator David Norris

He is not.

Senator Tom Sheahan

He is not trying to scaremonger.

Senator David Norris

Of course he is.

Senator Tom Sheahan

If we do not have inward investment and job creation, the budget deficit will not shrink. It is simple budgetary economics.

Can the Leader say when the coroners Bill will be before the House?

Senator Terry Leyden

I wish to add to the point made by Senator Darragh O'Brien about the fiscal treaty. Separate from the European day on 10 May, will the Leader arrange a debate in the House on the report of the Sub-committee on the Referendum on the Intergovernmental Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union? The sub-committee was chaired by Deputy Dominic Hannigan, who did a very good job. I was a member of the sub-committee and many Members participated in its work. It is important that following the publication of the report, around 14 or 15 May, the Leader would give an opportunity for every Member of the House, both for and against the treaty, to discuss it. He should also allocate enough time for the debate. It will not be necessary to have a Minister present because it could be seen to be biased in a certain way. There are enough voices in this House, on both sides of the referendum, that are knowledgeable on this issue to have a very good debate. I strongly recommend it as it would be good use of this House. It is essential.

If one votes "No", one is turning one's back on the availability of funding in the future. It is guaranteed funding.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Hear, hear.

Senator Terry Leyden

It is not rocket science. I cannot understand why anybody would advocate a "No" vote. It is obvious. People talk about getting money from the IMF; they even hope to get money from the Chinese. There is nothing but stability as a result of voting "Yes" to the treaty. It guarantees a source of funding for the future. It provides stability, which is what we want. I hope this debate will not be muddied by intra-political debates or rows between parties.

The Government should be very conscious about how it approaches this referendum. Making threats will not work. The Fianna Fáil Party has supported every treaty. It brought Ireland, with the help of the Irish people, into the European Union in the 1970s and we will continue to support the development of the European Union. Let there be no doubt about where we stand on this issue.

I support and commend the point made by Senator Norris regarding the proposed Chinese hub in Athlone, County Westmeath. It is a marvellous development. I compliment all involved, including the director, John Tiernan. I also compliment the former Taoiseach, former Deputy Brian Cowen, who was very much involved in this issue, and the president of the Athlone Institute of Technology. They all played a very important role in this regard. In fact, a former Minister, former Deputy Mary O'Rourke, was one of the first people to be involved with the idea being promoted in the Government. It had the full support of the last Fianna Fáil Government.

Senator Aideen Hayden

Today is 1 May, international labour day. It is also the feast of St. Joseph, the carpenter. Whatever one's perspective, be it socialist or Roman Catholic, it is a day to celebrate.

Senator David Norris

Both.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

Can one not be both?

Senator Rónán Mullen

Christian socialist.

Senator Aideen Hayden

On RTE radio yesterday morning, Karl Whelan pointed out that we would face significant increases in costs in the budget if we do not ratify the treaty, on the grounds that the IMF is only one of our funders. With only the IMF to rely on for funding, and if we did not have access to the European Stability Mechanism, we would have to close our deficit gap very quickly and this would require stricter budgets.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

That is not correct for this year or next.

Senator Aideen Hayden

I am not talking about this year or next year, and I do not believe the Minister intended to refer to this year or next. He was being honest with the Irish people, and the people need the Government to be honest with them with regard to what they are facing.

I rose to speak about the 16 year old girl whom Senator Bacik mentioned. This incident occurred in 2009, not 1959. The school in question said it would not offer her a place on the basis that the school was not a haven for young pregnant people or for young mothers. This country has legislation prohibiting discrimination on the grounds of sexual preference, membership of the Traveller community and on a number of other grounds. It is horrifying, in this day and age, that a 16 year old would be refused an education on the basis of either being pregnant or a young mother.

Senator David Norris

Schools and their ethos are exempt from that legislation.

Senator Aideen Hayden

We do not know what the ethos of that school was, and I do not care.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Aideen Hayden

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister, who I congratulate on his speedy response in acknowledging that legislation is required in this regard, to go further. The provision of education to pregnant girls or young mothers is not simply a matter in respect of enrolment, but also pertains to their entire schooling. The type of treatment to be received by a pregnant girl or indeed by someone who has had a baby, while enrolled — not necessarily while attempting to be enrolled — should not be a matter that is subject to the grace and favour of the individual school concerned. Instead, it should be a matter of public policy. I call on the Minister to extend his investigation of this matter to all publicly-funded schools nationwide in order to ascertain the types of facilities and supports that are in place for young pregnant mothers and the young mothers of this country.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I support completely the point made so eloquently by Senator Hayden. I also encourage my colleague, Senator Norris, perhaps not to misjudge this issue and I am sure he would not do so intentionally. I am not aware that this is a church school. This appears to be a decision, purportedly in the name of ethos but in reality a capricious and individualistic decision, that no right-minded person would support. The Ombudsman for Children is to be commended on her robust intervention in this affair. Moreover, it is important to have close consultation between the Department and school patrons, trustees and managers in respect of their characteristic spirit and ethos. It absolutely is not the case that current legislation could be invoked to promote a decision like this because the requirements of section 37 require an objective test of reasonableness and the decision that took place in this case certainly was not reasonable at all.

As a point of information to my colleague, Senator Norris, the comment from the representative of the Association of Catholic Priests regarding the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, pertained to the fact that the Minister had jumped to conclusions in the Kevin Reynolds case and perhaps had not resiled from that position. I do not believe it had anything to do with the Judaism of the person.

Senator David Norris

I am glad this has been made clear.

Senator Rónán Mullen

However, I wished to raise the issue of early prisoner releases today. Members should support the Government's initiative to arrange for the early release of 1,200 prisoners over the coming years. This is not a move that should be allowed to excite any hysteria and provided decisions are made in the appropriate fashion, it is to be welcomed. I also note the Prison Service is earmarking the next 40 months as a period in which in-cell sanitation will be rolled out in all prisons. Something tells me there is a horrible pun in there somewhere but a move towards having a humane prison service is long overdue, as is placing the emphasis on rehabilitation. This measure provides the opportunity to so do, while also relieving the issue of overcrowding. One should hope this does not simply constitute a release of prisoners but is the genuine reform of the prison system promised by the Minister.

Senator Colm Burke

First, I acknowledge and thank the Fianna Fáil leader, Deputy Martin, for coming on board in respect of the treaty and the forthcoming referendum. It is important to acknowledge——

Senator Terry Leyden

He has not come on board. He has led the campaign.

Senator Mary M. White

Fianna Fáil has driven the issue of Europe for 40 years.

Senator Colm Burke

It is easy to be opposed to things in opposition but it is extremely helpful and welcome that he has come on board and has been extremely supportive of the referendum. I also acknowledge all members of the Fianna Fáil party in this regard. Like all Cork people, we stick together and after last Sunday in particular, when Mayo was not as lucky, the Cathaoirleach has realised this.

Members raised the issue of a 16-year-old girl earlier and I now wish to refer to a 16-year-old girl from Cork, who was born without limbs and whose motto is, "No limbs, no limits". Last week, she addressed the International Telecommunications Union of the United Nations on the importance of being positive and about seeking solutions to problems rather than sitting back and expecting someone else to sort them out. I pay tribute to her, as well as to her family and school for the manner in which they have helped her to achieve amazing progress in a short time. My point really pertains to leadership and I note many people have complained to me about comments I made last week about people who do not turn up to work without a reasonable excuse. It is to a person like that, who has taken on and faced such challenges, that one should look to provide leadership in Ireland and Members should acknowledge what she has done in a very short space of time.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Ba mhaith liom mo chomhghairdeas a dhéanamh le hoibrithe na tíre ar an lá seo, lá de cheiliúradh agus de chomóradh ar an obair mhaith a dhéantar ar fud na tíre.

I also wish to join in the celebrations of international labour day, a day on which one remembers all workers worldwide, celebrates all their achievements and tries to bring to mind all the difficulties they experience. I commend my colleague, Senator Cullinane, and our assistant, Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire, who have prepared a Private Members' Bill that will be introduced later in the Dáil on the issue of protecting workers' rights and I look forward to Members of this House discussing it.

There has been much discussion in the House in recent weeks on education cuts. There have been cuts to small and rural schools and to DEIS rural schools, as well as cuts in capitation, cuts for newly-qualified teachers and so on. Consequently, it would be timely for the Minister for Education and Skills to come into the House for a debate on third level education funding, on foot of reports over the weekend about how children of staff of third level institutions have their fees paid for them. Without jumping on a bandwagon and declaring this practice to be completely wrong, I certainly seek clarification on funding for the third level sector in general. Sinn Féin has raised on numerous occasions its problems with regard to the cutbacks that are being imposed while at the other end of the spectrum, senior staff members in universities and third level institutions across the State are in receipt of exorbitant salaries. Sinn Féin has asked for such salaries to be capped but that has not happened.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

However, if there is a practice of fees being paid for the children of staff members as a perk of working for such institutions, Members need to know about it. They need to know its scale and to which staff members it applies. Moreover, they need to know the reason it is happening and what is the rationale at a time when——

Senator David Norris

None of my children has been educated at the expense of the State.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

The Minister should come into the Seanad for a debate. I note there is considerable expertise among Members in respect of the third level sector and it would be important to discuss third level funding. There should be debate on how much State funding is going into the sector and how much of it is being used to pay for fees for children of the staff and so on. There also should be debate on when the fees of those at the top end of the scale will be capped, to facilitate rolling back some of the cutbacks that have been introduced.

Senator Mary Moran

I echo the sentiments raised today by Senator Hayden. As a schoolteacher, I was absolutely shocked that, as the Senator remarked, this could happen in 2009. Above all, it is the duty of Members to ensure that all children, regardless of colour, creed or circumstance, should be entitled to their education. I pay tribute to the student in question and to her family who, according to all media reports, were highly supportive of her. I pay tribute to the student, who highlighted her position and who did not give up but kept going. An important part of this affair is that she continued to pursue her right to education.

On another issue, I again wish to raise the concerns of the Dignity 4 Patients group, a patient abuse survivors group from the Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda. I have raised this matter continually and I reiterate that, to date, the group has not received a positive outcome from its years of campaigning for justice. I call on the Leader to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister for Health in order that he honour the commitment he made in the Dáil in 2009, when he called for an inquiry into this matter. I stress the current delay and handling of this issue is adding to the immense suffering and is causing unnecessary anxiety to all the victims.

Senator Marc MacSharry

I call on the Leader to arrange a debate on health, in particular waiting lists at Beaumont Hospital, which is the centre of excellence for neurosurgery and neurology for the entire country. People who have had aneurysms are experiencing difficulty getting an appointment for an angiogram at Beaumont Hospital as it is currently only dealing with one appointment per day in this regard. That our national centre of excellence for neurosurgery and neurology is only dealing with five patients per week in terms of follow-up angiograms is unacceptable in any budgetary situation. I ask that the Leader raise this issue with the Minister for Health and report back to me in this regard.

I have been contacted by a patient who suffered an aneurysm in respect of which he received treatment at Beaumont Hospital and is recovering well. This patient is required as part of the process to have a follow-up angiogram within six months. Some ten months on he has been informed he may get an appointment in August. Surely, in terms of international best practice, Beaumont Hospital, being our centre of excellence for neurology, can in any budgetary situation perform a little better than five angiogram appointments a week. I ask that the Leader raise this issue personally with the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and that he arrange for a follow-up debate on the wider issue of the impact of the special delivery units on reducing waiting lists nationally.

Senator Michael Comiskey

The rural resettlement scheme introduced a number of years ago was quite successful. It encouraged people on the housing list to move from urban to rural settings. This issue was touched upon during the debate here on unfinished housing estates with the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. It would be worthwhile if this scheme were reintroduced as it would have a positive effect on some rural schools which are experiencing a fall in enrolments and are in danger of losing a teacher or closing. It would also have a positive effect on rural communities. We should perhaps be encouraging councillors in rural counties to consider the reintroduction of that scheme.

Senator Sean D. Barrett

I note the report by the Central Bank today which maintains that house prices in Ireland have over-corrected, having decreased by between 12% and 26%, which is interesting research. However, at least three people on the opposite side of the argument, Mr. Derek Braun, Mr. Ronan Lyons and Mr. David McWilliams, say that house prices in Ireland remain too high. It is important that we do not enter another property bubble. Low house prices are an ingredient of a recovery in the Irish economy when house prices as a percentage of average wages go into decline. While I appreciate the Central Bank research, we should not be cheerleading ourselves into another property bubble.

I take this opportunity to thank the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, for the return of the Fry Model Railway to its Malahide venue.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Senator Sean D. Barrett

This matter was raised on the Adjournment by Senator Darragh O'Brien. The Minister, Deputy Varadkar, said that he is delighted this matter has been finally resolved. I compliment him on having the Fry Model Railway returned to where it should always have been.

Senator David Norris

Well said.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe

I invoke the name of Ann Lovett whom we should never forget died giving birth to her son beside a church in January 1984, which was a shocking event. In a way what is happening in regard to the 16 year about whom there is currently much talk echos the type of carelessness and lack of regard for some of our children. It is hoped that it becomes apparent that what happened to this child is a unique situation. I pay tribute to those schools who have since the Ann Lovett event shown they have the capacity to care for children in schools. Many young women in similar situations have continued their schooling and received support from their schools and friends, which is important. It is hoped the school in question is an exception.

I support Senator Bacik's call on the Leader for a debate on child care, an issue on which there was much discussion and creative thinking during our debate on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2012. Rather than hand-wringing and expressing concern that we will find it difficult to find ways to cope with child care we should be turning our minds, as some people have, to finding solutions to this problem. That is what we need to do. The Minister has stated that she wants a bankable solution to this problem. The onus is on us to assist her and the Department in that matter.

I call for stability and calm in the discussion on the stability treaty. I call on Members to remind all those they know that 14 May is the last day on which people can register to vote.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Far be it from me to disagree with my friend and colleague, Senator Darragh O'Brien, leader of the Fianna Fáil group in the Seanad, in particular on a day like today when the Government launched its campaign for a "Yes" vote on the treaty. I am delighted the Senator and I are on the same side on this issue. However, with the greatest respect, while I did not hear what the Minister, Deputy Noonan, said I believe the Senator has inadvertently misrepresented him.

We all know that Department of Finance forecasts are predicated on growth prospect figures, which it must work out. It goes without saying that if people vote "No" this will have a damaging effect on our recovery and investor confidence. It is totally understandable——

Senator David Norris

The Department of Finance only got the figures right once.

Senator Paul Coghlan

A "No" vote will have a damaging effect. The stability treaty is about good housekeeping, sensible budgeting and the insurance policy of having access to ESM funds, should we need it.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

The Minister for Finance should temper his remarks.

Senator Paul Coghlan

A "No" vote will have a damaging effect on us. This is a no-brainer.

Senator David Norris

The people involved have no brains.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Senator O'Brien and I are on the same side. He need not rock the boat.

Senator David Norris

Do not lock it away. Fight it out and tell the truth.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Senator O'Brien knows well what the Minister meant. He was merely being factual.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I am advising the Minister to be careful of what he says.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Coghlan without interruption, please.

Senator Paul Coghlan

The Minister did not mean what Senator O'Brien attributed to him.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I am glad to hear that.

Senator David Norris

The Minister does not mean what he says. That is a great tribute to a Minister for Finance.

Senator Paul Coghlan

No.

(Interruptions).

Senator Jim Walsh

Senator John Whelan sent Seanad Members a precis of comments he made in regard to the good work which the Seanad does and can do. I compliment him on what was a well thought out and presented precis.

I have previously stated in this House that the manner in which business is ordered here is fundamental to our output. I believe we have since last December gone down hill in this regard. It is difficult to find out what days and at what time the House is sitting and we are finishing up too early. The House sat yesterday, despite that there is ample time this week to deal with the business dealt with yesterday and will finish early this evening. Private Members' business is now being taken at 4 p.m. and on Thursday the House will rise at 2 p.m. I do not believe that is how we should be constructing our business. I am not necessarily blaming this on the Leader, who is perhaps being influenced in this regard by someone from the Taoiseach's office.

Senator Maurice Cummins

That is very unfair.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Walsh have a question for the Leader?

Senator Maurice Cummins

That is a grossly unfair comment.

Senator Jim Walsh

I have not named anyone.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, have you a question for the Leader?

Senator Jim Walsh

Yes, I have. My question to the Leader is this——

Senator Maurice Cummins

That is an attack on a civil servant in the House.

Senator Jim Walsh

I have not named anybody.

Senator Maurice Cummins

It is not acceptable——

Senator Jim Walsh

I understand——

Senator Maurice Cummins

——and it should be withdrawn.

Senator Jim Walsh

I understand——

Senator Maurice Cummins

Any attack on a person should be withdrawn.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, have you a question for the Leader?

Senator Maurice Cummins

It is totally unacceptable.

Senator Jim Walsh

I well understand why the Leader would want to interrupt me and not allow me to finish.

An Cathaoirleach

Have you a question for the Leader?

Senator Jim Walsh

My question to the Leader is, when will he revert to the situation where the main spokespersons had 15 to 20 minutes to develop their arguments, in particular on serious topics, which they had in the past? I have seen it limited to six minutes. I have been limited to two minutes.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, you are over time.

Senator Jim Walsh

Will the Leader tell us whether we are sitting next Tuesday? This Government came into office talking about reform——

Senator Maurice Cummins

If the Senator was here at the start of the Order of Business, he would know all about it.

Senator Jim Walsh

——but it is doing everything to undermine the democratic process——

Senator Maurice Cummins

If the Senator had been here at the start of the Order of Business, he would know about it.

Senator Jim Walsh

——-and it is using its majority.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, you are over time.

Senator Jim Walsh

I now understand we will not sit the day after a bank holiday.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader has already told the House.

Senator Jim Walsh

There is no justification for that.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, you are over time.

Senator Jim Walsh

None whatsoever.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Moloney.

Senator Jim Walsh

Will the Leader change this? The real test will be whether we sit next Tuesday, as we normally do.

An Cathaoirleach

If the Senator had been here at the start of the Order of Business, he would know the Leader has already outlined to the House whether we are sitting.

Senator Maurice Cummins

If he was here.

Senator Marie Moloney

I welcome the announcement by Permanent TSB to reduce its variable mortgage interest rate by 0.5%. There is still a big gap between it and the other State-owned banks but it is a step in the right direction and I am sure mortgage holders will welcome it.

I refer to the cycle to work scheme, which is a very good scheme and is being very much availed of. However, it has come to my attention that many employers are not co-operating with employees and allowing them to avail of this scheme. Will the Leader speak to the Minister for Finance or ask him to come to the House so that we can debate the issue and put suggestions to him, such as a tax credit for people so that they would not have to go through their employer? It is grossly unfair on employees who cannot avail of the scheme while their friends and colleagues in other businesses are able to. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Finance about that issue?

Senator Mary M. White

As some colleagues said, today is international labour day. The biggest challenge facing this country is the 435 people who are unemployed and who are not able to participate in the labour market. I see it as 435 individual challenges with which this Government must deal. It must provide jobs for the people. We need a proper and open debate with Ministers from different Departments and not only one Department. We need Ministers from different Departments to come to the House to discuss the issue of unemployment.

The construction industry is very important, although it has a very bad name. Currently, it is running at approximately 2% to 3% of our economy when in a balanced economy, it should run at 8% to 9%. We are not only talking about building houses. Many construction jobs should be done to maintain our infrastructure.

Another area which has been neglected is indigenous manufacturing. We have forgotten that in manufacturing——

An Cathaoirleach

Have you a question for the Leader?

Senator Mary M. White

Last week at a meeting of Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Union Affairs, Senator Kathryn Reilly said everybody did not want to work in a multinational but I made the point that there is a multiplier effect. Every manufacturing job creates 2.5 indirect jobs while every service job only creates only 0.7 indirect jobs.

An Cathaoirleach

Have you a question for the Leader?

Senator Mary M. White

I have a question for the Taoisaech.

An Cathaoirleach

Have you a question for the Leader?

Senator Mary M. White

Yes. It is a question for the Taoisaech via the Leader. Last week I made the point that we cannot just talk about austerity. We need a commitment from this Government for an accelerated recovery programme. We must put on the agenda, in the context of this EU treaty, the plans for jobs and for accelerating growth in the country and not just talk about austerity. I ask the Taoiseach to come to the House over the next four weeks to spell out his programme for Ireland and for its participation in the EU Community. He has not come to the House yet and I am very disappointed. It is an absolute disgrace that he has not come to the House. Under the Constitution, the Seanad is part of the Oireachtas.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, you are way over time.

Senator Mary M. White

I want the Taoiseach to come to the House.

Senator David Norris

On a point of order, it is important the record is accurate. Senator White inadvertently referred to 435 people being unemployed. Would that it were the case. I think she meant 435,000 people.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, that is not a point of order.

Senator David Norris

The record should say that.

Senator Martin Conway

I agree with previous speakers about the appalling treatment of a 16 year old student who happened to be pregnant. It goes against any common decency and it certainly proves that our society is, in ways, significantly unequal. It has nothing to do with ethos because what happened was an appalling abuse of ethos. Ethos is certainly not reflected in the actions of that school. If we ever needed an example of the importance of having a children's referendum, this is a clear and unequivocal one.

I would like to commend the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, on his swift action. If legislation is necessary to ensure such an appalling exercise does not happen again, this House will facilitate the fast tracking of such legislation. I suggest the Leader makes the Minister aware of how appalled Seanad Éireann is at the treatment of this young lady. We will certainly do everything we can to facilitate bringing legislation through the House very quickly.

In regard to the fiscal compact treaty, it has been said that it is designed to ensure stability prevails. We are a small island nation very much dependent on exports and our relationship with other countries.

An Cathaoirleach

Have you a question for the Leader?

Senator Martin Conway

If that confidence is undermined by a "No" vote, I do not think any us can anticipate the consequences because they would not be in any way favourable to us. I agree with my colleagues in Fianna Fail and others. This is extremely important for the calm stable and micromanagement of our economy, our society and our children's future.

Senator Paul Bradford

I agree with what Senator Barrett said in his words of warning about the property market. This country was brought to its economic knees by the greed basically generated by the property zone of speculators and developers. It is disquieting, therefore, when there are headlines welcoming the fact property prices are on the march again. It should be our aspiration that every citizen would be in a financial position to obtain housing at a reasonable price. Having seen the country ruined by property prices, our aspiration should be that property prices remain modest and affordable and that so-called expectations of property price increases do not merit words of welcome from anybody.

I support the request from Senator Mac Conghail that we have a debate on the constitutional convention. I reiterate an argument I presented in the House some time ago. In regard to the constitutional convention and so-called "expert groups" on any area of public concern, I do not want these groups or persons to become trojan horses. There are 49 elected and 11 nominated Members in this House and 166 elected Members in the other House and between us, we have the views and expertise to bring forward ideas on changes to legislation which are required. I would not like anybody, whether an expert group or a constitutional convention, to be somehow presented as an organisation which knows more than the elected Members. A range of views is fine but the best and the biggest constitutional convention or expert group should be the 200 plus Members of the Oireachtas. Let us have constitutional conventions and expert groups, but they are not the bearers of full truth and knowledge. Leadership on constitutional change or otherwise must come from this House, not from external unelected persons.

Senator John Kelly

A major issue is unfolding with the second property tax, particularly in rural Ireland. Many people do not realise that they are liable to pay the non-principal private residence, NPPR, charge of €200. It was not until such time as the household charge was being debated that people started to inquire with county councils as to whether they needed to pay the charge on, for example, empty accommodation above small shops, which is not a property area in respect of which they need to pay commercial rates.

During the week, one or two people from small towns in rural Ireland brought this issue to my attention. They approached their county councils to determine whether they were liable to pay the NPPR charge. Due to not having paid it for the past number of years, many of them now face a bill of more than €4,000. Had they been fully informed at the time, they would have paid €200 per year for the past four years, amounting to €800. Fianna Fáil introduced this legislation——

An Cathaoirleach

This is more appropriate to an Adjournment debate.

Senator John Kelly

——but it did not make it clear——

Senator Darragh O’Brien

The NPPR has a compliance rate of 95%, by the way.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Kelly without interruption.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

It is more than can be said of the household charge.

An Cathaoirleach

Has Senator Kelly a question for the Leader?

Senator John Kelly

Yes. In fairness, Fianna Fáil did not envisage that the charge should be paid in these types of situation. It is all down to the finer detail in the legislation, which was highlighted during the debate on the household tax legislation. Will the Leader bring this matter to the attention of the Ministers for Finance and the Environment, Community and Local Government with a view to providing an amnesty to everyone who has been affected? People may be willing to pay €200 per year but they cannot pay a bill of €4,000 and an amnesty should be considered. I may call for an Adjournment debate on this matter next week.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I regret deeply the action taken by the school manager and former principal of St. Joseph's College in Borrisoleigh, in that he adopted an exclusionary approach in respect of a young pregnant girl. Several times, I had reason to——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should refrain from naming people.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

——work in the school with the principal and students——

Senator David Norris

It is rather dangerous to mention the school, as doing so might identify the young woman.

An Cathaoirleach

We are getting personal on this issue.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am sorry, but it has been reported.

An Cathaoirleach

The man in question is not present to defend himself.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I call on the former principal and current school manager to make a full apology to the young woman in question.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

My request is made.

An Cathaoirleach

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am getting there.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should speak to the Order of Business.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is time that the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, issued guidelines. He has indicated this is his intent. The school in question is a privately managed, non-fee paying school. Regardless of the status or owner-management of a school, the guidelines should exclude no one, particularly a young pregnant girl who wants to complete her education.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

The Minister will attend the House this afternoon for our statements on patronage and pluralism.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The girl is brave.

Senator Michael Mullins

I call on all Senators to work hard for Ireland and to pull out all of the stops during the next four weeks to ensure that the treaty passes. Although this is a treaty on stability, it is also about growth and jobs. Senator White is not happy with the pace of job creation——

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

More spin. The treaty is a fiscal straitjacket.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Mullins without interruption.

Senator Michael Mullins

It is about investment. We have seen a significant investment in the country in recent months. For example, there were several welcome announcements in my county in recent weeks. We want to keep this confidence going. Sinn Féin should be honest with people. It should try harder than issuing a few press releases that misquote prominent economists.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

We misquoted no one.

An Cathaoirleach

This is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Senator Michael Mullins

It is. This is a question about Ireland and——

An Cathaoirleach

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Senator David Norris

Una voce might be needed.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

On a point of order,——

Senator Michael Mullins

It is about our country.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Sinn Féin has misquoted no one on any leaflet.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

Has Senator Mullins a question for the Leader?

Senator Michael Mullins

The Irish people will know what is good for the country and them.

Senator Mark Daly

Fine Gael has made a few misquotes.

Senator Michael Mullins

My question relates to another matter. We have often discussed the length of time taken for medical card applications. Would it be possible to be updated by the relevant Minister regarding the progress that has been made in clearing the backlog? I have reason to believe that some of the information we are receiving is not accurate. Applying for a medical card is still difficult. A constituent has been trying to get an answer about his application since December. It is practically impossible to get through to the telephone number supplied by the Department. As Members of the Oireachtas, we are entitled to a better service. Would it be possible for the Department to make a number available to Members so that we might make contact with the section dealing with medical cards? The length of time required to get answers on medical card applications for people who are in dire need is too long.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I thank Senator Darragh O'Brien for his comments on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2012, on which we had a comprehensive debate on Friday and Monday. Several times, I explained to the House and the group leaders the reason for taking the debate on Friday, ordering business for yesterday and passing an early signature motion. It is unfortunate that other Members, Senator Walsh in particular, had problems with the ordering of that business. I deal with and notify leaders when there are changes to the order of the day. It is my responsibility to order business and I resent any veiled attack on a civil servant——

Senators

Hear, hear.

Senator Maurice Cummins

——by Senator Walsh. The suggestion that anyone was imposed on me is——

Senator Jim Walsh

On a point of order,——

Senator Maurice Cummins

No one was imposed on me.

Senator Jim Walsh

The Leader cannot make the charge that I impugned anyone. I did not.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Walsh stated that somebody was imposed on me, which is not the case.

Senator Jim Walsh

The record shows clearly what I stated and——

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader of the House without interruption.

Senator Jim Walsh

——I ask the Leader to withdraw his allegation. It is untrue.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Walsh indicated it. If he reads the record,——

Senator Jim Walsh

It will speak for itself.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. The Leader without interruption.

Senator Maurice Cummins

The record will show that Senator Walsh claimed I had someone imposed on me from the Taoiseach's office. That is not correct. The person in question received the position as the result of an interview. It is not the Senator's business to make accusations against a civil servant who is not present to defend himself or herself.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Senator Jim Walsh

It is the business of the House.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I am the person who is responsible for the ordering of business, no one else. For any Member to cast aspersions on a civil servant is reprehensible.

I acknowledge Fianna Fáil's support in the form of its campaign for a "Yes" vote. It is important that Fianna Fáil support the referendum and the Government appreciates the majority of that party's support. One or two Members can go against the wishes of the leadership, but——

Senator Darragh O’Brien

There are always a couple in every party.

Senator Maurice Cummins

——that can occur in any party. As has been outlined, particularly by Senator Paul Coghlan, budgets are based on growth, confidence and investment. This may be the reason that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, made his statement today.

I am informed that every household will have a copy of the treaty by this time next week without indicating a "Yes" or "No" vote. This is possible because the treaty is only 11 pages long. I agree with Senator Darragh O'Brien that the public should be fully informed on the matter. The parties will do their own work on convincing people to vote "Yes" or "No".

I welcome Senator Bacik's comments on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill. I support the call she and Senator O'Keeffe made for a debate on child care. We had a good debate on that issue in the context of the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2012.

The case of the 16 year old girl who failed to get access to a school was mentioned by Senators Bacik, Norris, Hayden, Mullen, Moran, O'Keeffe, Conway and Healy Eames. It was a dreadful situation. The Minister for Education and Skills will come to the House at the conclusion of the Order of Business to discuss the report on pluralism in schools. Perhaps the subject could be raised with the Minister in the context of that debate. I agree with Senator Conway that what happened represented an abuse of ethos.

Senators Mac Conghail and Bradford called for a debate on the constitutional convention. I will try to arrange time for such a debate. In regard to Senator Norris's comments about committee meetings being held at the same time as the Order of Business, I agree it is important that the latter should take primacy. I will discuss the question of reorganising committee schedules with the Chief Whip and I hope we will see progress in that regard. If necessary, we will bring forward Senator Norris's motion to copperfasten that at a later stage.

Senator David Norris

That is much appreciated.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I agree with Senator Sheahan regarding the need for growth to get employment moving. I will revert to the Senator regarding when the coroners Bill is expected to come before the House.

Senator Leyden referred to the ongoing debate on the fiscal treaty in the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs. We have debated this issue on several occasions and we held our first debate long before the other House. Members on all sides made excellent contributions to some of these debates. I wonder whether we should hold another debate at this point in time but I will consider the Senator's request.

Senator Terry Leyden

For clarification, the report which the joint committee will be publishing is separate to anything that we discussed previously.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I realise that but we have discussed the stability treaty.

Senator Terry Leyden

We need to get this through or we will be in trouble.

An Cathaoirleach

There is no allowance for clarification.

Senator Terry Leyden

There should be.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I agree with Senator Hayden in regard to the 16 year old girl. She also pointed out that today is international labour day and the feast of St. Joseph. Senators Mullen and Bacik spoke about the Prison Service. I share Senator Mullen's hope that the reforms will deal with prison conditions and overcrowding as well as the release of prisoners.

Senator Burke referred to another 16 year old girl, the wonderful Joanne O'Riordan, who is an inspiration to all of us.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I am proud that she addressed the international conference.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh spoke about funding for third level education and perks for staff, referring in particular to free fees for staff members' children. We should hold a debate on third level education.

Senator Moran spoke about the Dignity 4 Patients group. I suggest that if she raises the issue on the Adjournment she will get a comprehensive reply from the relevant Minister.

Senator MacSharry spoke about the waiting lists in Beaumont hospital. On 14 February we held a debate on the national service plan. I do not know whether the Senator raised this issue in that context but it is a serious matter if only five patients are being seen per week by neurology specialists. I suggest that he raise the matter on the Adjournment in order to get the detailed information he requires.

Senator Comiskey made an important point regarding rural resettlement and the need for local authorities and others to get together. It would be of assistance to rural schools if we could persuade more people to resettle in rural communities.

Senator Barrett spoke about the Central Bank's assertion that houses prices are now too low and pointed out that there is a difference of opinion among economists in this regard. He also welcomed the return of Fry Model Railway to Malahide and thanked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar. The issue had previously been raised by Senator Darragh O'Brien in the first instance.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

We did not get metro north but we got the model railway.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Moloney raised the issue of tax credits. If she provides me with details I will raise the issue with the Minister for Finance. Senator White spoke about the need for a greater emphasis on manufacturing. I agree that we lost our compass in respect of manufacturing industries over a number of years. The Taoiseach has indicated that he will come into the House in the near future and I hope I can make an announcement in this regard shortly.

Senator Bradford supported Senator Barrett's comments on the property market and agreed with Senator Mac Conghail on the constitutional convention. He rightly pointed out that the Houses of the Oireachtas will always have primacy where legislation is concerned.

Senator Kelly raised the issue of the second home charge. I am surprised that people were not aware of it. There is a duty on people to inform themselves on the charge. The Senator advised the House that he may raise the issue on the Adjournment next week.

Senator Mullins spoke about the backlog in medical cards. I will attempt to get information on the issue from the relevant Minister and will revert to the Senator on it.

Order of Business agreed to.