Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012

Vol. 216 No. 4

Order of Business

Senator Maurice Cummins

The Order of Business is No. 1, European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012 — Second Stage, to be taken at 3.45 p.m. and conclude not later than 5.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minute and those of all Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 5.35 p.m., and No. 2, European Communities (Amendment) Bill 2012 — Second Stage, to be taken at 6.30 p.m. and conclude not later than 8.30 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 8.20 p.m.

As Senators will be aware, we are sitting earlier than usual as Committee Stage of the Gaeltacht Bill 2012 was due to be taken following the Order of Business. It was agreed last week that amendments to the Bill could be submitted up to yesterday morning. However, owing to the volume of amendments received and the fact that many were tabled in Irish and needed to be translated, I was informed by the Bills Office yesterday that it would not be in a position to publish them in time for today's sitting. I propose, therefore, that we commence Committee Stage on Thursday afternoon and, if not concluded, that time be set aside in the schedule for tomorrow week to complete it.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I thank the Leader for his clarification of the position on the Gaeltacht Bill. That makes a great deal of sense and it affords proper time for an important Bill to be discussed. I remind colleagues that it will disenfranchise people living in Gaeltacht areas and remove their right to elect people to represent them in Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Senator Paul Coghlan

That is the Senator's interpretation.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Darragh O'Brien to continue, without interruption, please.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

That is not my interpretation; it is the view of the thousands of people who live in Gaeltacht areas. I watched with great interest the Minister of State with responsibility for Gaeltacht affairs, Deputy Dinny McGinley, defend the indefensible in the House last Thursday. Therefore, I look forward to the resumption of the debate.

Will the Leader update the House on when the pyrite report will be published? Will it be published before the summer recess? If so, will he afford time for it to be debated? It is dragging on and on and I am like a broken record asking about it, but it is too important to let go.

I understand from the Minister for Justice and Equality that the personal insolvency Bill will be brought to the Cabinet today and published before the end of the week. Does the Leader have any information on the process from there? Will the Bill be introduced in the Oireachtas before the summer recess? It is urgent legislation and this side of the House would certainly facilitate a late sitting to deal with it. If we need to extend the time the House needs to sit after 19 July to pass this important legislation, we will absolutely support the Leader in so doing. If, closer to the date, it does not appear that it will be passed, we will be calling for an extension.

With regard to the HSE and the Department of Health, we are all concerned to read that the level of over-expenditure in the five months to May stands at €300 million. If one takes into account the fact that the hospitals will be busier in the approach to the winter, it appears the Minister for Health is to preside over over-expenditure in the region of €1 billion by the end of the year. He may talk all he likes about what the HSE needs to and should do, but I remind him that it is his health executive. He sacked the previous board and the appointees are all his. What is he doing about the matter? Last week we saw the number of hospital beds not being used. Waiting lists to see consultants are growing day by day. The figures are the worst we have seen in the past five or six years, which implies circumstances are actually getting worse. I, therefore, ask the Leader to arrange a debate with the Minister in the next week or so, specifically on the HSE service plan. The Minister should clarify his comments and those of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. They seem to be endeavouring to scrap the Croke Park agreement which was signed by the previous Government with the public service unions. It is delivering value and should be allowed to run its course. I actually agree with the Tánaiste's statement that he would prefer if individual Ministers did not get up every morning and express a point of view. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport is wont to do so regularly. Surprisingly, he was preceded by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government last Sunday. This House needs a full and proper debate on the Croke Park agreement in the company of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin. We need to know whether the Government is actually committed to the agreement. I thought it would have learned a lesson last year when it flew numerous kites before the budget about various developments that could and would happen if people did not toe the line. I remind the Minister for Health that he was the worst culprit in that regard. It blew up in his face and he is flying kites again, although we are only at the end of June. If we are to have such circumstances——

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I do. Rather than spending his time flying kites, the Minister should enter the House to explain his position and state whether he and the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport are committed to the Croke Park agreement. The person who can tell us this is the Taoiseach. In 16 months he——

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I want to know when the Taoiseach is coming to the House. He has not once addressed it since it was formed. He saw fit to come here to address the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which is fine. He spoke to Members from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Wales and Scotland.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is over time.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I ask the Leader to ask the Taoiseach to come to the House to confirm whether the Government is committed to the Croke Park deal. When he said he would come here, he wanted to discuss Northern Ireland issues. I would prefer if he discussed issues pertaining to the Republic of Ireland. When is he coming here? He has made a commitment to do so.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I can if the Cathaoirleach wants me to, but I was not going to.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I was delighted to agree wholeheartedly with Senator Darragh O'Brien when he said he agreed with the Tánaiste on the Croke Park deal. The Tánaiste stated very clearly the Government's position on the deal, which is that it stands. Irrespective of whatever kite-flying may be engaged in by individuals, that is the Government's position, on which the Tánaiste has been very clear. We had a full debate on the Croke Park agreement in February, but nobody on this side is against having another debate on the matter. As I said, the Government's position is very clear — the Croke Park deal stands. This has been stated at the highest level.

There are a couple of good news stories today that the House should welcome. The first is that house prices in Dublin are increasing. This is both good and bad news, depending on——

(Interruptions).

Senator David Norris

The Senator's stance on socialism——

Senator Ivana Bacik

The Senator should allow me to finish. There is clearly both good and bad news. It is not such good news for those seeking to buy a house. If we take this statistic as a sign of generally increasing confidence in the economy, we can take it is good news, despite deploring price rises for house buyers.

It is worthwhile welcoming the fact that Nuance International has announced the creation of new jobs in Ballsbridge. This is very welcome news.

I seek a debate on companies which are not abiding by Labour Court resolutions. I refer, in particular, to H. W. Wilson. A number of colleagues were outside Leinster House some weeks ago with the H. W. Wilson employees recently made redundant. H. W. Wilson is an American publishing company which had an office here. It made its employees redundant and is not abiding by Labour Court recommendations on redundancy payments. We have had a number of such cases in recent years and months. We might debate this issue in the House.

I ask the Leader for a further debate in the autumn on the criminal law on prostitution. I welcome the publication last week, on 22 June, by the Minister for Justice and Equality of his discussion document on the future direction of legislation on prostitution. We have had a number of debates in the House initiated by the Taoiseach's nominees' group, including Senator Katherine Zappone. We are all very pleased that the discussion document has now been published, as promised. It will be referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Defence. Senator Katherine Zappone and I have both been involved in its hearings. Other colleagues are also members of the committee which has been given until 30 November to report on the discussion document, having heard from interested groups and members of the public. It would be very useful for the House to have a debate based on the report the committee will be producing following the publication of the discussion document. I hope we will see a clear way forward for legislation after the debate.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

I, too, welcome the publication of the consultation document on the criminalisation of the purchase of sex which I believe is the result of the motion the Independent group brought before the House on two occasions.

Last Friday, 22 June, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, and the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, signed a statutory order to remove section 11(1)(e)(iii) of the Ombudsman for Children Act which excluded children detained in St Patrick’s Institution from the complaints remit of the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan. The order will take effect from 1 July. I warmly welcome this move which I do not believe received much publicity. Prior to this, children held in prison, children in the Defence Forces and children involved in dealings with the Garda were the only three groups of children excluded from the remit of the Ombudsman for Children. However, there is an ombudsman in place for both the Defence Forces and the Garda. It followed from the announcement of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs on 2 April that the detention of children in St. Patrick’s Institution would end on 1 May for all newly remanded or sentenced 16 and 17 year olds. They will now be detained in Oberstown. These two measures mark significant progress in the treatment of juvenile offenders and the observance of children’s human rights. However, I am mindful of the fact that there is still no independent, fair and impartial complaints mechanism for adult prisoners. Concern has been expressed in this regard by both the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment and the inspector of prisons, Mr. Justice Michael Reilly, in his annual report for 2010. In Mr. Justice Reilly’s report he refers to a deficiency, to be rectified by 1 July 2011, in the following of proper complaints procedures, with supporting documents. I look forward to seeing what progress, if any, is recorded in his next annual report. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Justice and Equality to the House to confirm when the annual report of the Office of the Inspector of Prisons for 2011 will be published. I understand it was sent to the Minister on 17 April. I ask that we have a debate on how best an independent, transparent and accountable prisoner complaints mechanism can be established in the prisons.

Senator David Norris

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, that the minutes of meetings of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges be circulated. I am interested in its decisions. I assume that what is minuted by it is its decisions. We are all entitled to know what decisions are taken in our name by a body on our behalf. However, this has not happened and it is an abuse of democracy.

I have good news and bad news. The bad news is for the Taoiseach, that the meeting that was held here in Seanad Éireann to discuss the question——

An Cathaoirleach

No. 21, motion 9.

Senator David Norris

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I appreciate his help. The more important matter is the significant discussion that was held here. Leading academics and commentators from all over the world were invited to this Chamber. I welcomed them here. It was an interesting, lively and informed discussion. I compliment the Members of the Seanad who were either invited or participated spontaneously from the floor. They distinguished themselves. However, it is important to register that when they were asked on a vote, 90% of those taking part supported the retention of the Seanad, but with reform. The remaining 10% simply abstained. The bad news for the Taoiseach is that, from a distinguished panel of international experts, not one person supported the position he took.

Will the Leader of the House explain why, if the facilities of this House were being used — there was, apparently, an involvement of this House in it as a kind of subterfuge which, happily, backfired — if it was a serious situation and although there were two members of staff at the desk, no attempt was made to make a record of the proceedings? There is no transcribed record and it is only of use to those who have a memory of what happened. That is lamentable. If one was serious about it, such a record should have been provided. Perhaps it is just as well because they did not get the response they wanted.

The second point I want to make is connected. I rearranged my diary for this event, because I believe in freedom of thought and freedom of expression. I did not know what would come out of it but I am happy with the result. I took over the Chair from Dr. Maurice Manning who could not be present because he was involved in the launch of the report on the Irish Human Rights Commission.

Senator Paul Coghlan

An eminently suitable substitute.

Senator David Norris

Dr. Manning was the Fine Gael leader in this House. It is interesting that, although he is a diplomatic person and did not come into direct conflict with the Government, he raised some worrying issues. He made the suggestion that there is a gradual move to absorb the Irish Human Rights Commission into a Department and not to respect that distance that must exist between human rights organisations and Departments. What was highlighted in particular, and most astonishingly, was the violation of the Paris Principles, the very principles in the United Nations to which Ireland signed up and which are being violated by this Bill, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Bill, that will be presented before this House. I refer in particular to head 17(5) which states: "The first Director——

An Cathaoirleach

Has Senator Norris a question for the Leader?

Senator David Norris

I am asking when this Bill will be taken in the House because we need to discuss it because of the disgraceful material contained in it. Head 17(5) states: "The first Director of the Commission shall be the person who on the day prior to the establishment day is the Chief Executive of the Equality Authority and her contract". One should note the words, "her contract". The Government is directly nominating its own person in advance of the composition of this new arrangement. This is something I raised when Fianna Fáil tried it on the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. The Government side of the House——

An Cathaoirleach

Has Senator Norris a question for the Leader?

Senator David Norris

I would like to know where the principles of those on the Government side are. Why have the parties in government changed since they have gone into government?

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Paul Coghlan.

Senator David Norris

When in opposition, they attacked this corruption of independent bodies.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Paul Coghlan. Senator Norris is way over time.

Senator David Norris

One of their own, the former Fine Gael Leader of this House——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris is way over time.

Senator David Norris

——has raised these serious questions. Where are the principles of those on the Government side? When will this Bill be brought in? Will they withdraw from this shameful abuse of democracy? Where is the openness, transparency and accountability we were promised from those now in government when they were in opposition and of which there is now not much sign? Those on the Government side are like provisional Fianna Fáil.

Senator Paul Coghlan

The entire House is happy and, despite what we heard on the last day we met, is glad to note Senator Norris's happiness regarding the meeting with the academics. It is good to hear from him that he is happy and content about it. That is good and represents progress.

Senator David Norris

It is interesting that they were allowed to speak in this Chamber and Senator Paul Coghlan was not. He did not open his mouth.

Senator Paul Coghlan

I was the Chief Whip. It was I who decided it.

Senator David Norris

Exactly. Senator Paul Coghlan was the silencer. He was the enforcer.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Paul Coghlan, without interruption.

Senator Paul Coghlan

No. I decided that rather than have persons speaking with different ideas, which, by the way, we all have——

Senator David Norris

With different chums.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris, please.

Senator Paul Coghlan

We are all respectful democrats in this House.

An Cathaoirleach

Has Senator Paul Coghlan a question for the Leader?

Senator Paul Coghlan

I wanted to refer to the contribution of my good friend and colleague, Senator Darragh O'Brien. I thought his endeavours to appear overexcited were rather pained or strained. Perhaps he has not had the practice that some of his other colleagues behind him have had at the Abbey school of acting. Nevertheless, he and the House should be assured——

Senator Darragh O’Brien

Does Senator Coghlan note potential there?

Senator Paul Coghlan

——that the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are ad idem on some of the matters to which he referred. As I have often preached in this House, and in regard to Senator Norris’ excitement on the other issue, let us be calm and, in Senator Darragh O’Brien’s instance, await Cabinet discussion and decision because nothing has changed.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

That is great advice.

Senator Paul Coghlan

It always is.

Senator David Norris

I thank Senator Coghlan for that senior advice.

Senator Paul Coghlan

I thank Senator Norris.

Senator David Norris

Monsignor Coghlan.

An Cathaoirleach

May we have Senator Paul Coghlan, without interruption? Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Paul Coghlan

I am sure the Leader will agree with me that there are signs of confidence slowly creeping back in, especially in respect of house prices, to which Senator Bacik referred. I accept the increase has been tiny and marginal and that we would want to wait another two periods at least. The point is that we should be calm and measured and should not be getting overexcited needlessly.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I wish to express my deep concern about the operations of a body that usurps its powers and functions regularly, that is, An Taisce. It is not subject to freedom of information requests and gets mandatory notice of every rural planning application in Ireland. It had the audacity recently to challenge the autonomy of Cork County Council and its manager in respect of that organisation's policy on one-off housing, which challenge was substantially and unequivocally rebuffed by An Bord Pleanála. There is no transparency. There is a Chinese wall of secrecy around the organisation. It has many members in west Cork, yet there is never a public meeting or an AGM. No one can ascertain the membership of this body.

Senator David Norris

Why does Senator O'Donovan not join it?

Senator Denis O’Donovan

This group has done substantial damage to genuine people who seek to build houses in rural areas in order to live in their communities. Some living within the Pale, such as my colleague, Senator Norris, would not understand this damage.

Senator David Norris

I understand it was right about the sewerage problem.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris cannot continue to interrupt the proceedings of the House.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

When there were abuses, of which we now know, concerning the rezoning of lands, which resulted in ghost estates, etc., An Taisce was as silent as a lamb.

Senator David Norris

That is not true.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I am asking the Leader——

Senator David Norris

On a point of order, I ask Senator O'Donovan to withdraw the remark.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris, resume your seat, please.

Senator David Norris

I have made a point of order.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I am asking the Leader——

Senator David Norris

I have asked the Senator to withdraw the remark. It is not true.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris is long enough in the House to know that is not a point of order. Senator O'Donovan, without interruption.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I ask the Leader for a full debate to out, as it were, this secrecy within An Taisce and to ask why it is not subject to the Freedom of Information Acts.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

Hear, hear.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

Why is it not? What has it to be afraid of? I have made this point publicly. My difficulty is not with An Taisce protecting our heritage but with its interference in issues, whether in Donegal, Clare, Mayo or wherever, often by those who do not even know the sites concerned. I compliment the county manager in Cork, Mr. Martin O'Riordan, who, most unusually, made a public pronouncement in the past week of his disgust and disdain for what An Taisce is trying to do in respect of one-off rural housing. There should be a full debate in this House to lift the veil of secrecy surrounding An Taisce. Let us take away the mask and see who they are.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

Hear, hear.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Higgins.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I challenge Senator Norris any day to debate on this issue because I know where I stand on it.

Senator David Norris

I would be delighted to pick up the challenge.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

They are like the Ku Klux Klan.

Senator Lorraine Higgins

Before raising an important issue, I commend the CEO of ISME, Mr. Mark Fielding, and Deputy Michael McGrath of Fianna Fáil on backing my calls to have Ulster Bank waive its fees to customers and to have the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform use its powers to deal with this issue. I seek also that the Minister for Finance would come to this House to debate the fiasco at Ulster Bank and the impact it is having on the lives of those 100,000 people who do not know whether they will have wages or social welfare entitlements in their accounts this week. I seek the Minister's presence in the House in circumstances where the bank's response to this debacle has been lamentably poor and his intervention in the matter is needed. I have been waiting for days for Ulster Bank and its parent company, Royal Bank of Scotland, to respond to my letters. If neither is prepared to respond to me with urgency, what hope do we have they will resolve this matter quickly?

I call on the Minister to come before the House to debate three specific issues, namely, the need to address charges for accounts at this time, the need to address the issue of customers'credit ratings and the need to reimburse costs incurred by customers when contacting the Ulster Bank helpline. Several days after this fiasco commenced, it is still impossible for customers to see up-to-date balances. The bank has also warned of the possibility of further bumps on the road. Short of running out of money, it is difficult to think of a more serious issue for the bank. This is the most widespread customer service failure in my memory and the bank's reaction to it thus far has been a disgrace.

Senator Sean D. Barrett

I thank the technical staff for repairing the translation equipment during the debate on the Gaeltacht Bill. The staff who serve this House always deserve thanks for showing patience and professionalism.

There is still a problem with the Gaeltacht Bill. There has been a view in the permanent Government for some time that one cannot have elections in the Gaeltacht areas. The previous elections to Údarás na Gaeltachta were postponed two years ago. This issue predates the decision on Dáil by-elections reached in a case taken by the then Senator Pearse Doherty. I wonder if the Government can persist with this position, given that the decision by Mr. Justice Kerins in the Doherty case was that elections were not discretionary. In the case of Gaeltacht elections, the proposal disenfranchises 91,000 people, of whom 23,000 are living in County Donegal, 1,000 in County Meath, 43,000 in County Galway——

An Cathaoirleach

That is a matter for discussion on Committee Stage of the Bill which will be taken on Thursday.

Senator Sean D. Barrett

While I thank the Cathaoirleach for his advice on this matter, further points arise in this regard. A regulatory impact assessment was not carried out, as is the case when human rights issues arise. The decision of the court in the Doherty case should also be assessed. As Senator Paul Coghlan stated, the Bill deserves more consideration at the Cabinet than appeared to have been the case when it was brought before the House last week. Two days will not be sufficient to remedy the defects in the legislation. I ask the Leader to raise the matter with the Cabinet and request that it consider the serious flaws identified in the legislation when it was brought before the House last week.

Senator Colm Burke

I concur with the views expressed by my colleague, Senator Denis O'Donovan, on An Taisce. The Senator is correct that the same rules should be applied to An Taisce as to other organisations and that it should come within the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act. Some years ago in Cork the taxpayer had to pick up the €20 million in additional costs incurred when a project in which the State was involved was delayed as a result of one person lodging unfounded and unreasonable objections with An Bord Pleanála. This issue needs to be debated.

I raise the issue of the attitudes of final year medical students about to graduate from medical school towards working in the health system. In recent years there has been a major drain of junior doctors from the health system. A study produced recently by the University of Limerick shows that within 12 months of graduating 66% of students or graduates will not be working in hospitals and that more than 50% will have left the country. The annual cost of educating a medical student at university is approximately €25,000 per annum. If it costs €125,000 per student for a five-year course and 600 students are graduating in medicine each year, the annual cost of medical education stands at €75 million. Within 12 months €35 million of this investment will have been lost. We need to consider the reasons medical graduates are leaving Ireland so quickly. I, therefore, ask for an urgent debate with the Minister for Health on this matter because it is imposing a substantial cost on taxpayers. While I accept that medical graduates are leaving the country for genuine reasons, we have failed to address these reasons.

Senator David Cullinane

I ask the Leader to put pressure on the Government to block the payment of €1.14 billion in bonds which the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation is due to repay on 26, 27 and 28 June. Of the four separate bonds, two were held previously by Irish Nationwide Building Society and two were held by Anglo Irish Bank. Sinn Féin has long argued that these bonds should not be repaid in full and that a significant haircut should be imposed on senior bondholders. Our view is now shared by a chorus of voices outside the State, including the International Monetary Fund, the OECD and the European Commission. Many are conscious of the impact of asking taxpayers to repay bank bonds — debt that is not theirs — and increasing the national debt. This is not the right thing to do and I ask the Leader to put pressure on the Government to cease making these repayments.

I also call for a debate on the launch yesterday by the Claiming our Future group of its Plan B strategy. Many Senators have asked political parties and organisations to propose an alternative to the Government's economic policies. Now that a group of civic minded people has published one such alternative, the House should do it justice by debating the proposals it has made. We must debate the real alternatives people are putting forward. Many of the ideas included in Plan B are similar to ones Sinn Féin has proposed in recent years, including in our pre-budget submissions. Plan B has secured some trade union movement support, including the endorsement of SIPTU, backing from a number of significant organisations and individuals. In the light of calls made by many Senators for people to present alternatives to the Government's policies, the House should debate Claiming our Future's alternative strategy.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe

I ask that the House extend sympathy to the family and friends of Eugene Moloney, a journalist who was murdered at the weekend. Mr. Moloney worked hard throughout his life and had just finished working when he was murdered. On behalf of the House, I extend sympathy to his family and friends.

I offer some reassurance to Senator Darragh O'Brien who became excited about the issue of personal insolvency. He and his Fianna Fáil Party colleagues are not the only Senators who are more than willing to sit longer hours or later to ensure legislation is passed. It struck me that the Senator might have been trying to create the impression that his party was the only one willing to sit longer and later to deal with urgent or relevant legislation.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

That is obviously the case, as there is no proposal to sit late.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe

The Fianna Fáil Party is not the only party prepared to sit later or longer.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Will the House sit later in the summer?

Senator Susan O’Keeffe

That is a matter for the Leader to decide.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Diarmuid Wilson may get what he wishes for.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe

I ask the Leader to request that the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, to consider reconvening the NGO liaison group. Particular concern has arisen over the rights of older people, an issue discussed by the House at the most recent meeting of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee. The loss or absence of the liaison group at this time will make this debate more difficult.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

I support the views expressed by Senator Sean Barrett who has done the House a particular service in seeking to have a solution found to problems identified in the Gaeltacht Bill. If legal and constitutional issues arise with the legislation, it would be better to have them addressed before Committee Stage is taken on Thursday. People living in the Gaeltacht have been waiting for the Bill for a considerable period and there is no doubt they believe they are being deprived of an established franchise. It seems that Senator Barrett has done his homework pretty well on this. There is much logic in what he is saying and it is backed up by a judicial decision. The Leader might take this on board in a positive way from this side of the House and address the matter because if there are constitutional issues and if it follows that there is a constitutional challenge, that will put this Bill into abeyance for a long period.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

A second issue relates to planning in rural areas which has been raised by Senator O'Donovan. It is important to have a debate if there are issues to be discussed. It is not a matter of taking shots at An Taisce or anyone else. I do not believe any fair-minded person wants to see the countryside destroyed in any way, but on the other hand, there are a lot of questions to be answered and we get those on the ground. For instance, I have seen several cases where a family member could not build a house on their own land. One must bear in mind that would mean a young couple would have their children close to their grandparents. It is a big social issue. I have seen too many cases where permission has not been granted. In many of those cases An Taisce has had an involvement. I do not wish to take from the good work it does. It is a very important body and it must remain in existence. In this day and age it must also be answerable for any stance it takes. I find it difficult to get any response from An Taisce on the issues I have mentioned. I hope the House can play a role in some way either by asking An Taisce to come and discuss the issues with us or by giving us an opportunity to bring it in to provide information. We are entitled to freedom of information in such cases.

Senator David Norris

That is very reasonable. Well said.

Senator Paul Bradford

I am not sure if the Reclaim the Future people are in some way related politically or otherwise to the Reclaim the Streets people but I welcome the fact the group is presenting an economic alternative. I suggest to the Leader that we would have a thorough debate at the earliest opportunity on the current state of the country from an economic perspective and the possible options which will be considered and taken on board or otherwise by the Government in the December budget. Two or three years ago when I was on the Opposition side of the House when the economic crisis was profound, I regularly called for such debates because there is a duty on all political parties to present their economic view and options well in advance of budget day. We must move beyond the traditional method of the Minister announcing the budget on budget day and the Opposition saying it has a better idea. If people have ideas, they should be heard on the floor of this House and the other House and presented well in advance of the budget decisions of December. Such a debate on the economy would be useful.

I support Senator Colm Burke's comments on medical students. He has presented his case very well. Our country has invested significant sums of taxpayers' money in putting a proper training structure in place for those students. I am sure the majority of them would aspire to pursue a medical career in this country. We must investigate why it is not proving possible for so many of them to do that. I support Senator Burke's request for a debate.

Senator John Crown

Perhaps the Leader would bring the following comments to the attention of the Minister for Health. First, I wish to talk about sin. The capital sin in a recession is not the spending of money, it is the wasting of money. A hugely wasteful spend is occurring in our health service right now. Figures emerged last week that showed 350,000 Irish citizens on some type of waiting list for hospital care. When one does the arithmetic, that works out at about 8% of the entire population being on a waiting list. That is simply staggering by international standards. When one considers we also have a much higher than average percentage of patients in this country with private health insurance — there are waiting lists in the private sector as well — the number of public patients who do not have a private option, who are waiting for public health care at any given time is probably something in the order of 11% to 12%.

We have all been through the moral, societal and ethical issues, but I wish to put one other thought into the Minister's head. There is an economic imperative to reform the health system and rid us of this problem. How many patients on waiting lists are out of work because they are waiting for medical care to go back to work? How many children are not able to hear what their teacher is saying because they are on eight to ten month or one year waiting lists to get their hearing tested? How many elderly people need a family member to care for them because they cannot see while they are waiting to get a cataract dealt with or cannot walk while they are waiting to get their hip replaced? Such a family member is a potential economic contributor to society who is taken out of the workforce. How much more expensive is it to deliver care when that care is delayed? We have hard figures which show that the average Irish child who needs corrective spinal surgery for scoliosis and kyphosis — diseases of curvature of the spine — has 10° more curvature than their European peers. What about the economic cost of the under-use of staff who are sitting around because wards have been closed and they cannot process patients through an operating theatre because it has been closed? All of those pathologies are due to the primary funding mechanism of the health service and its bureaucratic structure.

I ask the Leader to bring these problems to the Minister's attention because, to date, the political response has been to impose further bureaucracy and not to deal with the fundamental problem. I am concerned that the visceral reflex of the people who run our health service — the bureaucrats — to the other figures on health service overspends we have seen emerge will be to close wards and theatres, curtail services and lengthen waiting lists rather than increase efficiency.

Senator Jimmy Harte

I wish to send our condolences to the family of the young Irish supporter, James Nolan, on his sad death in Poland. As a fan I experienced the highs and lows of Euro 2012 but the low for most people was the untimely death of James Nolan. I stayed in the city of Bydgoszcz and the people there were very friendly. They appreciated the arrival of Irish people there. I wish to put on record the sad passing of young James Nolan.

The second issue I wish to raise relates to the matter raised by Senator Barrett on the constituency review. He mentioned Donegal in particular. It would be better served as a five-seater than as two three-seaters.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

He was talking about the Gaeltacht Bill.

Senator Jimmy Harte

He referred also to the constituency review.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader?

Senator Jimmy Harte

I propose that the report of the Constituency Commission would be discussed at some stage, especially as it pertains Donegal. Perhaps I misunderstood Senator Barrett. In Donegal the area of St. Johnston is adjacent to Derry city, yet electorally it is in the south west of the county. The nearest Deputy is approximately 60 or 70 miles away. A debate on this aspect would be welcome in the context of the constituency review, albeit that part of Ballyshannon and Bundoran have been moved into Sligo.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

Does it have anything to do with Letterkenny being in the middle of the new constituency?

Senator Jimmy Harte

Unfortunately, Letterkenny is in the middle of it.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Senator Harte seeking a debate?

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I would look for it, too, if I was above in Letterkenny.

Senator Jimmy Harte

The Senator would be watching the constituency himself.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

McDaid is coming back.

Senator Jimmy Harte

Which side of the road is he coming up on?

Senator Paschal Mooney

While my party might have some quibble about the wording of the motion tabled by Senator Norris in terms of how it would be implemented, we support the broad thrust of it and, therefore, I formally second his proposed amendment.

I raise an issue which was reported in yesterday's national newspapers on the IDA policy on the location of jobs and industries throughout the country. A parliamentary question tabled by my party colleague, Deputy Michael McGrath, elicited the information that the IDA had focused almost exclusively on attracting foreign direct investment into specific areas: Dublin, Cork, Galway, Waterford and, to a lesser extent, Limerick. What was more astonishing, and not at all revelatory for those of us who have been fighting the case with the IDA for many years, is that some counties, such as my county of Leitrim, Longford, Wexford — strangely enough — and Roscommon, have received no visits whatsoever from potential foreign direct investors. The argument the IDA put forward in the written reply from the Minister was that it had to take account of the facilities and services that were available and population density.

This is all ráiméis that has been going on ever since the IDA started. It is far past time that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, came to the House to indicate what Government policy is in terms of dispersal into the regions. I am realistic enough, as is everyone in this House, to know that IDA Ireland cannot force any potential investor to locate in a certain place. However, it is obvious from the answer elicited by Deputy Michael McGrath that it is pursuing a policy of focusing on the main areas of population to the detriment of those in other parts of the country. What was astonishing about the reply was the mention of population. If there are no jobs being created in counties such as Leitrim, Cavan, Longford and Roscommon, as well as other parts of the west, people — particularly young people — have no chance of finding work and they will emigrate. My own daughter is in Australia. Our football team has been decimated. Senators may have read about this in the Irish Independent last week under the headline “The team who disappeared”. Of the 31 members of the Leitrim football panel in 2010, 20 are gone. From one parish in my county — Drumreilly outside Ballinamore——

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Paschal Mooney

——17 youngsters are gone. The club is struggling. These are the facts and it is time the Government grasped the nettle. I am not suggesting it should force industries which want to locate in this country and provide valuable jobs to locate in particular areas; nor am I in any way casting aspersions on those areas in which jobs have been created. What I am saying is that the Government has a responsibility to do something, as did the last Administration, which failed miserably in that regard by bringing forward a spatial strategy that was never really implemented. I know the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, is amenable to coming to this House on a regular basis. I, therefore, ask the Leader, the next time the Minister comes to the House, to alert him to the fact that we want to talk to him about industrial policy and dispersal to the regions.

Senator Cáit Keane

As Fine Gael spokesperson on the environment, I would like to mention an important document, Ireland's Environment: An Assessment 2012, which was published by the Environmental Protection Agency and launched yesterday by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan. It is a most comprehensive evidence-based assessment of the state of our environment. I ask the Leader to arrange a discussion on this document which is published only once every four years. We should be informed by its assessment and recommendations in every decision we make as legislators. As well as the environment, our economic growth depends on it. Ireland is known for its good environment and, thankfully, the report states our environment is generally in good condition. However, it highlights some formidable tasks ahead of us of which we should all be aware. As legislators, we must make critical decisions on behalf of our constituents on our environment and we want to make sure it is in good condition when we pass it on to the next generation. Because Ireland is uniquely noted for its green and clean image, our economic growth also depends on it. Senator Denis O'Donovan mentioned An Taisce, but that body should be dealt with in a separate debate. I understand from where the Senator is coming; An Taisce does a good job, but there are issues in certain areas that need to be debated. However, that should be the subject of a separate debate; it should not be lost in the debate on the EPA report or vice versa. Even though one could say they are interlinked, they are separate subjects. I ask the Leader to hold that important debate.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Ba mhaith liom tacú leis an méid atá ráite ag mo chomhleacaí, an Seanadóir Barrett, maidir le Bille na Gaeltachta agus maidir leis an gceist faoi thoghchán Údarás na Gaeltachta. Tá an ceart ar fad aige faoin cheart atá ag muintir na Gaeltachta vóta a chaitheamh i dtoghchán Údarás na Gaeltachta agus tá súil agam go dtabharfar aghaidh ar sin sula dtiocfaidh an Bille ar aghaidh arís. Ba mhaith liom freisinfáilte a chur roimh an cinneadh an-stairiúil agus an-mhisniúil atá glactha ag Ard Chomairle Shinn Féin go gcasfaidh Martin McGuinness le Banríon Shasana amárach agus guím gach rath orthu sa mhéid sin. Fáiltím freisin roimh na teachtaireachtaí eile atá ag teacht ón bpobal ar fad, nó an chuid is mó dóibh, sa Tuaisceart ag cur fáilte roimh an cruinniú seo. Tá súil againn go mbogfaidh sé cúrsaí chun cinn agus ceapaim go gcuirfeadh chuile Sheanadóir sa Teach seo fáilte roimh sin.

Yesterday a number of Senators attended an interesting presentation in Galway which was given by representatives of community employment schemes across the county. It was a positive way of dealing with their worries about cutbacks to the schemes. They presented information on their work, which covers such a broad area it would take too long to go into. Will the Leader clarify when the review of the report on community employment schemes is to be published? In conjunction with this, if it is to be published before the recess, can we have a debate on the value of the schemes across the country? We need to be able to discuss the points raised with us yesterday, including the fact that capital grants are to be cut. Training grants are also to be cut for those participating in schemes. This is a retrograde step and we hope it will be reversed based on the review. This is an important issue, particularly at a time when we are seeing increasing numbers of unemployed persons and in view of the great value we get from community employment schemes across a wide range areas, including the upkeep of civic amenities and the servicing of youth facilities and facilities for older people. It is important that we recognise the work done by the schemes. We need to have a debate on this issue as soon as possible.

Senator Michael Mullins

Having attended the same presentation as Senator TrevorÓ Clochartaigh yesterday, I strongly agree with him that community employment schemes, certainly those in my county, have done invaluable work in recent years. I hope to see them go from strength from strength and that the resources required to achieve this will be made available.

I support the call made by my colleague from Galway East, Senator Lorraine Higgins, for the Minister for Finance to clarify the position on the Ulster Bank fiasco over the weekend. If ever confidence in the Irish banking system was severely damaged, it was over the weekend when so many people throughout the country were severely discommoded. There is major uncertainty, with people worried about their credit ratings and the costs they may incur. The bank needs to clarify the position and the Minister who has a major involvement in the banking sector with the Governor of the Central Bank needs to allay public concerns because of the damage that has been done. In addition, we want to make sure, when this matter has cleared up, that nobody is out of pocket, that people's credit ratings are intact and that confidence in the banking system is restored.

Senator Marie Moloney

I want to highlight a problem that has arisen in the medical card applications office, although perhaps this time it is not of its own making. It has come to my attention that child care expenses will not be taken into consideration in processing medical card applications unless a registered childminder is used. We all know that in Ireland there is a long-standing tradition of childminding by family members — grandparents, aunts and uncles — for small remuneration. The Minister needs to review this criterion and allow such child care expenses to be taken into consideration because it is affecting people, especially in rural Ireland where proper child care facilities are practically non-existent or, at least, very scarce. It is okay in the big urban areas in which people who are working can take their children to dedicated facilities, but in rural Ireland this is very difficult. I ask the Leader to request the Minister to come to the House to discuss the issue or provide us with his views on this matter. I also ask that he review the criteria in respect of child care.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I welcome the news that a single Government-funded body is to be created to oversee the retention of human tissue samples, which has been called for by a number of groups, not least the Adult Stem Cell Foundation of Ireland which not long ago made a presentation to Deputies and Senators. This is a welcome development, one we should debate in the House at some stage.

It is a welcome development and should be debated in the House at some stage. Senator Crown and I are not ad idem, but I always listen to him with great interest, as his comments are carefully thought through.

(Interruptions).

Senator Rónán Mullen

I support Senator Bradford's call for a debate on the economy. I do not know why the Tánaiste appeared to get upset when he was somewhat impaled by the comments of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, on increments. I thought of "Varad the Impaler" this morning. It is revealing that the Tánaiste resorted to suggesting that Ministers should not come out with the latest fresh idea on a Monday morning. This is exactly the type of debate we need. Unless we subscribe to an authoritarian vision of a lone voice at all times, we cannot but welcome fresh thinking. The Minister deserves credit for being willing not just to come up with ideas off the top of his head, but to say what needs to be said. It is good that the Tánaiste was challenged by journalists about the Minister's proposal, be it right or wrong. As far as the Croke Park agreement is concerned, we are not at a stage in this economic crisis in which we can afford to have any taboo subject. Everything must be on the table and the agreement must remain under review. If sacrifices are to be made by postponing increments, I hope that the lower paid will be shielded, but the proposal must be on the table in respect of some earners in the public sector. Fair play to the Minister for being willing to say so. I was surprised by the Tánaiste's defensive reaction. He must maintain the Government line, but he should not resort to grumbling about the fact that Cabinet colleagues might show some independence of thought and be willing to say what they believe. It will be a bad day for the Government when those kinds of comments are prohibited.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Darragh O'Brien raised the issue of the pyrite report, which I understand will be published by the summer. If so, I will endeavour to arrange a debate on it. The personal insolvency Bill will be published, but I do not know whether it will be introduced in this Chamber before the summer. I will facilitate time if the Government wishes to move the Bill in this House.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

It will be supported.

Senator Maurice Cummins

We will provide time, be it at the end of July or in August. I am willing to facilitate the Government.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

The Leader might relay our support for expediting the Bill.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Support is always welcome.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Regarding the overspend in the health budget, ten Members contributed when the House debated the HSE's service plan on 14 February, including Senator Darragh O'Brien. If we need another debate, we will try to arrange one in the autumn.

The Croke Park agreement is referred to on the Order of Business from time to time and we debated it on 9 February, when the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, gave a thorough and comprehensive update on its implementation. Only ten Senators participated in that discussion. Recent reports suggest that the agreement is working and delivering a leaner public service without industrial unrest, which is in everyone's interest.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

True.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I will ask the Minister of State to return to the House in the autumn as the budget process takes shape to provide a further update on the agreement. The Government is committing to fulfilling its objectives as set out in the programme for Government. Budgetary decisions will be taken by the Cabinet and I will not speculate on what they might be.

Senator Bacik mentioned a company that is experiencing difficulties with redundancy payments. It is of paramount importance that workers' full redundancy rights are met. I am sure that the Senator will raise the matter with the relevant Minister.

Senators Bacik and van Turnhout mentioned the publication of a discussion document on criminal law and prostitution. Everyone welcomes the document, which will be debated by the justice committee. The Minister for Justice and Equality committed to its publication at the earliest possible opportunity when he attended this House. I am glad that he has honoured his promise.

We would all agree with Senator van Turnhout's welcome of the extension of the remit of the Ombudsman for Children to encompass children detained in St. Patrick's Institution. I will find out for the Senator when the publication of the report of the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention is intended.

Senator Norris asked about No. 21, motion No. 9 on the Order Paper, which asks that the minutes of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, CPP, be published. I will not agree to that motion being taken at this point. Publishing the minutes could compromise the committee's work. The CPP is arbiter of Seanad procedures.

Senator David Norris

I would be happy if the Leader could give a commitment on a decision——

Senator Maurice Cummins

If the Senator allowed me to respond,——

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader without interruption.

Senator Maurice Cummins

——I might answer his question. For example, the committee is involved in litigation that is due before the Supreme Court. Each group has a representative on the committee. That person is responsible for communicating decisions of the committee to his or her group's Members. If there is no communication, Senators should raise the matter with their representatives.

I assure Senator O'Donnell that any decision agreeing to a request for the use of the Chamber should and will be circulated to all Members.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I thank the Leader.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Paul Coghlan was calmness personified when addressing the matters raised by Senator Darragh O'Brien.

Senators O'Donovan, Burke, Ó Murchú and Norris asked why An Taisce was not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Although many Senators would agree with Senator O'Donovan's comments, an equal number would not. Perhaps we can arrange a debate on the issue later this term.

Senators Higgins and Mullins raised the regrettable and deplorable Ulster Bank situation. It is a matter for the bank to rectify, but the Government has expressed its concerns. No one should be out of pocket because of the bank's problems. The bank will ensure no one is.

Senator Barrett asked about the Gaeltacht Bill 2012. Members are being fed information by Conradh na Gaeilge and many other organisations, many of the concerns of which are appearing in the form of amendments. I have been assured that the Department will examine the sections that the Senator believes are unconstitutional. He made a number of points in this respect last week and the Department is anxious to discuss the matter with him. Committee Stage will be held next Thursday. Concerns regarding legislation are referred to the Attorney General's office. If necessary, the Senator's questions about the Bill's constitutionality can also be referred to that office.

Senator Colm Burke commented on the junior doctor issue. Some 66% leave the health system. That is a matter which has been addressed previously by the Minister for Health, but we should have him before the House again to discuss that and other issues raised by various Senators.

Senator David Cullinane asked about the Government's position on banking, which is very clear. We are attempting to negotiate with EU colleagues on the restructuring and alleviation of bank debt and the Government will continue the process until the matter has been rectified.

As Senator Susan O'Keeffe noted, we extend our sympathy on the death of the journalist Eugene Moloney. I will make inquiries of the relevant Minister of State about the non-governmental organisation liaison group.

Senator Labhras Ó Murchú also mentioned the possible constitutional challenge to the Gaeltacht Bill. All legislation is presented after receiving advice from the Attorney General, but the Minister is willing to listen to the case that will be made. The Minister of State made an impassioned speech in the House last week; it was one of the finest we had heard in a long time.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

It was an Oscar-winning performance.

Senator Maurice Cummins

It was totally as Gaeilge and he did not interrupt one speaker. Unfortunately, that was not the case when he spoke.

Senator John Crown spoke about the overrun in the health service, the under-use of staff in the system and the need to achieve efficiencies. I am sure he has made such issues clear to the Minister, but I will raise them again with him. If we can get the Minister here for a debate, I am sure the Senator will have avail of the opportunity to raise them with him.

As Senator Jimmy Harte mentioned, we join in the vote of sympathy to the family of Mr. James Nolan, the youth who died by drowning in Poland.

Senator Paschal Mooney spoke about the focus of IDA Ireland on Dublin, Cork and Galway. It is only lately that Waterford has come into the picture. There were few, if any, visits by officials in IDA Ireland to Waterford and the south east in recent years. We welcome any change as unemployment is a significant problem, not alone in the south east but also the length and breadth of the country. I recognise there are problems in Senator Paschal Mooney's area and will endeavour to have the Minister come here to discuss industrial policy and employment creation, if possible.

Senator Cáit Keane mentioned the state of the environment report which should be debated in the House. I will try to arrange it.

It is welcome that a member of Sinn Féin will shake the hand of the British Queen, as mentioned by Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh. It is not before time and is part of the ongoing process of peace and reconciliation on the island and between Ireland and its closest neighbour, Britain.

Senators Michael Mullins and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh raised the issue of the review of community employment schemes. When we receive the report, I will ask the responsible Minister to debate it in the House.

Senator Marie Moloney mentioned medical card applications and a review of the criteria applied in respect of child care. She should make this point either in an Adjournment debate or a note to the Minister. I will also raise the issue with the Minister.

I have addressed the question of the Croke Park agreement, as raised by Senator Rónán Mullen. I welcome the setting up of one body to deal with the issue of human tissue samples.

Senator Darragh O’Brien

I asked a question on the Taoiseach.

Senator Maurice Cummins

The Taoiseach has indicated that he will address the House before the end of this term. I do not have an exact date, but when I receive, it I will notify the House.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator David Norris has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That No. 21, motion No. 9, be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator David Norris

The Leader has very graciously gone a considerable way towards meeting my concerns. Perhaps he might go a little further and allow us to see the decisions which are not of a controversial or legal nature. Perhaps he might circulate decisions which he has been advised do not have legal implications. If he does this, I will happily withdraw the amendment.

An Cathaoirleach

The House has already given permission to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to take decisions on its behalf. There are problems, particularly in preparing legal briefs for court cases, etc. It can be problematic in deciding which matters have legal implications.

Senator David Norris

I am not seeking a discussion of the issues involved, as those outlined by the Cathaoirleach should be confidential. I completely accept that confidentiality should be preserved in that regard. However, if the Leader can go a little further——

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps the Committee on Procedure and Privileges might discuss the matter and revert to the Senator on it. Changes to Standing Orders are always placed before the House and Members are written to when they are to be implemented.

Senator David Norris

As I understand it, the Leader has given an undertaking that the minutes, at least in one area, will be circulated. Will he, at least, go a little further and consider other matters which would be of interest to Members but not prejudice the discussions of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?

Senator Maurice Cummins

As I noted, each group has a representative on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and I would have thought he or she would relay such matters to Members.

An Cathaoirleach

As Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, I give an undertaking, with regard to proposals to use the Chamber, that any decision taken will be circulated to Members.

Senator David Norris

I am asking for consideration to be given to further matters, information on which could be safely made available. I am not looking for anything that would prejudice legal cases or put the House in jeopardy. I am not seeking discussions on issue but information on those decisions which may be of interest to Members.

An Cathaoirleach

That would be a matter for the committee to decide.

Senator David Norris

I am afraid the Leader has backtracked into the Jesuitical business of indicating that the representatives will let us know about such matters. That is not a good answer.

An Cathaoirleach

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges is made up of representatives of all groups in the House.

Senator David Norris

I ask the Cathaoirleach to raise the issue. If information on further matters can be made available, it should be as we want greater transparency. I agree that An Taisce should be open and above board but so should the Committee on Procedure and Privileges as much as possible.

An Cathaoirleach

I give an undertaking to bring the matter to the attention of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Senator David Norris

I am most grateful. In that case I will not push the matter to a vote.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator David Norris

No.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

I would like it to be noted that the three Sinn Féin Senators are not represented on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

An Cathaoirleach

They are not part of a group.

Senator David Norris

That is a good point.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

We are not represented. We are working on the issue.

Order of Business agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 1.20 p.m. and resumed at 3.45 p.m.