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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Jul 2012

Vol. 216 No. 10

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, Industrial Relations (Amendment) (No.3) Bill 2012 — Second Stage, to be taken at 3.45 p.m. and conclude not later than 5.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 5.35 p.m., and No. 2, European Arrest Warrant (Application to Third Countries and Amendment) and Extradition (Amendment) Bill 2012 — Second Stage, to be taken at 5.45 p.m. and conclude not later than 7.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 7.35 p.m.

As a former Vice Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts in the 30th Dáil, I am extremely concerned that it seems to be the position of the Government to undermine the independence of the committee. The Committee of Public Accounts is a select committee and the main audit committee, the objective of which is proper oversight of Government expenditure in all Departments. It has divided only once — on its establishment there was a vote for the position of Chairman. Let me give an example to show how everybody works together on the committee. It spent 18 months on a very effective investigation into FÁS under the then Chairman, former Deputy Bernard Allen. Any Member who has served on the committee — Senator Deirdre Clune was a former colleague of mine on the committee — will know that it operates in a non-partisan and non-political way in the best interests of the taxpayer. I will not refer specifically to which committee should conduct the banking inquiry, but we are all agreed that such an inquiry should take place.

I draw the attention of the House to another matter. Only two weeks ago the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, wrote to the Committee of Public Accounts and for the first time in the history of the State used Standing Order 163(7)(a) to halt the investigation of the committee into the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. This Standing Order has never been used by a Minister of any party to halt an investigation of an committee. Within one week, before the committee had produced its initial interim report, the committee received a letter from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, stating it was his belief that the matter would sit better within the remit of the finance committee.

That is a matter for the Dáil, as the Committee of Public Accounts is not a joint committee.

I am a taxpayer and a citizen——

That is a Standing Order of the Dáil. The Committee of Public Accounts is a committee of the Dáil.

I am bringing to the attention of the House that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, stopped the inquiry into the Dublin Docklands Development Authority by the Committee of Public Accounts. This is the first time ever that the Standing Order has been used in the Dáil and in the committee system. I want to talk about Oireachtas reform.

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

I do. I have many questions for the Leader.

It is a matter of public interest.

Oireachtas reform was a major cornerstone of the new Government and I agree with it. The Government tried to reform the committee system but it rowed back on it. That is okay because one will not get everything right the first time. I welcome the announcement of two new committees to allow them to work better and more effectively. Let us think about what is happening with the Committee of Public Accounts where two Ministers, Deputies Rabbitte and Howlin, are both saying that perhaps we will have a rerun of the investigations referendum to give additional powers to committees. This is supported by Senator Bacik. The public decided, very clearly, that it did not want additional powers to be granted to the Oireachtas. Then two Ministers impugn the integrity of the independent chair of the Committee of Public Accounts. They impugned his integrity and also undermined the independence of the committee.

Is the Senator seeking a debate on Oireachtas reform?

I want to raise two issues and then I shall finish. First, the committee system and the main ranking committee of the Oireachtas has been undermined. Any future Government, and not just this one, can decide that if it does not like the structure of the committee or who is chairing it then the committee will not be allowed to investigate and a new committee may be set up. That has never happened before. The Committee of Public Accounts deserves its right and independent status, and to be independent of party politics. The Government trumpeted the reform agenda but has, in the space of two weeks, done more damage to the independence of the committee than has ever been done before.

It is a matter for the Dáil.

It is not a matter for the House.

I will tell the Cathaoirleach why that is not so.

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

I have a question for the Leader. I would like the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform — and I mean "reform"— Deputy Brendan Howlin, to explain to me as a taxpayer, a citizen and a Member of the Oireachtas how he can decide that the Committee of Public Accounts, the main audit committee, should not oversee the banking inquiry. Furthermore, I would like the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, to come in here and explain to the House why he is the only Minister in the history of the State to invoke Standing Order 163(7)(a) to halt an investigation.

That is a Dáil Standing Order. I call Senator Bacik.

The Senator is way over his time.

I remind the House that the Minister has halted planning inquiries here.

It is a Fianna Fáil fiasco.

Now the Minister has halted the main audit committee's inquiry into the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.

Another Bertie Ahern type project.

The Senator is way over time.

The matter is too important.

I appreciate that.

I am sorry. I ask the Leader, in the time remaining, to arrange a debate on the serious issue of a reforming Government undermining the work of the Committee of Public Accounts in which it was supported by comments made by Deputies John Deasy and Simon Harris. The Ministers, Deputies Howlin and Hogan, need to come here to explain.

The Senator has asked his question and is now being repetitive.

Will the Leader give a commitment that if any other issue comes down the line that the Government will have the Committee of Public Accounts examine the matter and will not set up its own committee?

I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

The current situation is an absolute outrage and an affront to democracy. Senator Bacik has been complicit because she has gone against the will of the people in the last referendum and has said that there should be another referendum. She said that Deputy John McGuinness and his Committee of Public Accounts should not hold the banking inquiry.

I ask the Senator to respect the Chair.

I do respect the Chair.

I call Senator Bacik, please.

It was an absolute outrage and Senator Bacik has been complicit.

The Senator has cast wild aspersions all around the place.

The Senator is complicit. She is 100% complicit.

There is no substance to what he says.

I never said a word about the Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Yes, the Senator is scuttling the issue. She said that there should have been a rerun of the referendum and that an investigation should not be held by the Committee of Public Accounts.

Senator Bacik please, without interruption.

I do not know where Senator Darragh O'Brien got that.

For a reforming Government it is an absolute disgrace and the Senator should be ashamed of herself.

The Senator will have to go back to his sources. Yes, I support Minister Rabbitte's suggestion.

The Senator has undermined the Committee of Public Accounts, the main auditing committee.

Senator Bacik please, without interruption.

No. I support the Minister's suggestion that there should be a second referendum on giving sufficient powers of inquiry to Oireachtas committees.

So the public was wrong the first time.

No. I mean to Oireachtas committees generally.

The public has spoken.

I do not care what she says.

The public has spoken.

Senator Ivana Bacik to continue, without interruption.

All parties, including the party of which Senator Darragh O'Brien is a member, supported the last referendum which it is fair to say the people rejected.

We should respect their views.

Those of us who believe passionately, as I do——

That the public was wrong.

——that Oireachtas committees should have full powers of inquiry are right to say we should run another referendum, with a different wording, making it clear that the High Court would have power of oversight, to give Oireachtas committees generally the power to conduct the type of full investigation parliamentary committees around the world can carry out.

Mr. Justice Hardiman said the Committee of Public Accounts had sufficient powers to carry out investigations and inquiries.

The Senator is being harassed.

We cannot have this crossfire. Senator Darragh O'Brien has made his point. Will he, please, allow Senator Ivana Bacik to continue, without interruption?

It is patently in the interests of democracy that the people have the right to learn, on foot of a full Oireachtas inquiry, what actually happened on the night in September 2008 the bank guarantee was given.

I would be very surprised if the Senator tried to stop a procedure to allow us to learn what happened that night.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Yes. No party in government——

That is not correct. We wholeheartedly support the holding of an inquiry.

The Senator has made his point.

I ask the Leader if we can debate the merits of holding a new referendum to give Oireachtas committees generally powers of inquiry in order that the conduct of the then Government in September 2008 and its decision which, effectively, brought down the economy through the bank guarantee could be investigated properly.

Allow it to happen now. The Senator voted on the issue of the bank guarantee.

Please, Senator; I will have to call off proceedings if Senator Ivana Bacik is not allowed to continue, without interruption.

Please do not do that. Tá brón orm.

I never said one word about the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts. I have an open mind about which committee should conduct the investigation. The Joint Committee on Investigations, Oversight and Petitions was the one originally designed to examine the issue of investigations. It might well be reformed and revised to ensure it could adjudicate on the holding of such an investigation. At this point it is not for us to say which committee should conduct the inquiry, but it is clear we need full powers of inquiry for Oireachtas committees generally.

On a different note, I welcome the news that negotiations are beginning on the rescheduling of Ireland's bank debt and that a decision will be made by October. Members on all sides of the House very much hope the negotiations will go well and that they will result in a successful resolution for this country in October.

I commend the Atlantic Philanthropies organisation funded by Chuck Feeney for the immense work it has done in recent years in terms of investment in civil society in Ireland and the huge contribution it has made on many issues, including children's rights and penal reform.

Since we last met the Taoiseach has had his encounter with the flower pot. It was suggested he had been ambushed by one of the few members of the press who was unfailingly courteous and well-bred in dealing with every member of the public, including politicians. I say this as someone who does not have very amicable feelings towards the press. The issue was highlighted and treated in a way that created a moronic distraction from the real issues.

Is the Deputy seeking a debate on the issue?

Yes, I am. I am seeking a proper debate on——

Perhaps the Leader might allow me to finish. I am seeking a debate on the press, the media. It would have served the Taoiseach right if he had fallen into a flower pot full of carnivorous pansies — it would have taken a lump out of his backside — as he had refused to give a straight answer on the issue of gay marriage. The only person in the country who had the guts to stand up and let everybody know that he was thinking about this serious issue was Mr. Bertie Ahern. Every available committee has avoided it. The Taoiseach is avoiding the issue of the press on which I asked for a proper debate. We had a debate, but my colleagues were limp; the Minister was certainly limp. I asked if an inquiry would be established and the answer was no. I asked if we would send a representative to the Leveson inquiry and the answer was no, even though Ireland had been mentioned repeatedly as a place in which these practices were known to continue and sworn evidence had been given at the Leveson inquiry. Were we going to send a representative? The answer was no, but, apparently, a representative will go. He will be the Press Ombudsman, Mr. John Horgan.

I refer to the evidence given by the British Prime Minister who was afraid to take on the British media and could only manage rather than confront them because they would remorselessly, ceaselessly and mercilessly go after him, his family and friends if he dared to confront them. The response to all the evidence, including accumulated evidence of criminality, of people taking their own lives and being financially ruined by the gentleman in question who is charged with defending the public, is that it appears from the Leveson inquiry that some editors might not be quite up to the mark. If this is the evidence that will be given on behalf of Ireland because the Government does not have the wit to send somebody, it is a poor reflection. I propose myself and shall write to Lord Leveson to offer myself to give evidence on what is actually happening in this country in the media, to which no one in government or in Parliament has the guts to stand up. I am well aware of the way the press will take revenge on me, as it has traditionally done on any person who has dared to challenge their unelected, unaccountable and unrepresentative tyranny in which the rights of ordinary people are transgressed. I am serving notice that I seek a debate and, if no proper person is appointed, I will offer myself. It does not mean I will be taken, but I will certainly offer myself to give evidence and the evidence I would give might open a few eyes in this country which have been deliberately closed against events they think are too unpleasant to confront.

I seek a debate on concert promoters and how outdoor concerts, in particular, are managed. I note the sad events at the Swedish House Mafia concert at the weekend in the Phoenix Park. Coming from a county in which eight people lost their lives at an outdoor concert 25 years ago, it was sad to hear about the loss of life and people being injured at the weekend. I call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to discuss policing arrangements at concerts and protocols with concert promoters. I will also ask the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality to request the attendance of the Garda Commissioner to outline the arrangements made with the Garda Síochána. I will also ask the committee to request the attendance of MCD, the concert promoter, to provide an account of security. The streetlights from the Phoenix Park to the city centre were switched off on Saturday night which meant some 45,000 young people had to walk the roads of the Phoenix Park without street lighting. The Phoenix Park should not be made available if it is not a safe and appropriate place. Many questions must be answered by the Garda Síochána, the concert promoter and management in the Phoenix Park. Until there is a proper inquiry and detailed explanation, Phoenix Park should never be used as a concert venue.

I ask the Leader for an urgent debate on the pilot training students who are trapped in America. In the past 15 months some 180 students, not all of whom are Irish, have paid approximately €15 million through the Pilot Training College in Waterford, a sister company of Pilot Training Company Florida which trains young people to be airline pilots, mainly commercial pilots. Since the story broke two weeks ago, I have had serious concerns about the lack of sympathy and concern on the part of the State, particularly the Minister responsible, Deputy Leo Varadkar. I ask that the order of the House be amended to request the Minister to provide us with a detailed explanation of what happened. Some of the statements issued by the parties involved in this matter are a source of serious concern. We were told eight or nine months ago, for example, that the Irish Aviation Authority had received, through the auditors of PTC Waterford, confirmation that it was in a position to accept money to train these pilots, yet the Florida Institute of Technology which delivers the training stated yesterday that it had received no up-front payment and was owed €1.4 million in fees. What has become of the €15 million received by PTC Waterford in the past 18 months? This is a very serious issue and there are important questions to be answered. I have been contacted by distraught parents throughout the country whose children are in Florida packing their bags, having received notice to quit from the landlord of their accommodation. Most of them have not even completed 15% of their training, despite having handed over €85,000. That sum would put a student through the full seven or eight years of training for medicine or veterinary medicine, yet no recompense or alternative training has been offered.

When I raised this issue with the Leader, he suggested it be dealt with by way of an Adjournment matter. However, there are broader issues involved. What has happened to the €15 million paid to PTC Waterford and who is accountable for same? There is clearly an issue in regard to light touch regulation, given that this is the third time such an incident has occurred on the watch of the Irish Aviation Authority. The Minister must get a handle on this matter. I am asking that he come before the House to answer a series of questions. Last week I sent him a questionnaire containing 15 questions, but I have received no response. In fact, when I contacted his office on Monday of last week, a staff member informed me that the issue was not even the Minister's responsibility. Something is seriously wrong. We have a duty of care to these young Irish people. This House is the appropriate forum in which to hold a debate on the matter and I demand that it take place today.

I share Senator Denis O'Donovan's concerns and apprehensions about events at the pilot training school in Waterford and its partner school in Florida. I urge the Leader to invite, at the earliest opportunity, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to intervene in the matter. The State cannot abandon these young students who have each forked out €85,000 for training. These are ordinary working families, including some, from Stradbally and Portlaoise, to whom I have spoken, who borrowed the money to allow their children to train as commercial pilots. They are not wealthy people who can afford the loss of such a sum. As Senator Denis O'Donovan observed, the young people concerned are facing a very distressing situation in Florida, caught between a rock and a hard place. Remaining would be in violation of their visa conditions, which would prohibit them from travelling in the future. It would be absurd for anybody who aspires to be a pilot to take that chance. The bottom line is that the State gave its imprimatur to this school. Moreover, my understanding is that the Department, through Enterprise Ireland, is a stakeholder in the facility which was sanctioned by the Irish Aviation Authority as recently as 2010. Parents and students were entitled to believe it had the backing of the State as a fully funded and reliable operation. The statements released by the college on 3 and 9 July are of no comfort to the students and their families who are being given the run-around. The Minister cannot wash his hands of the matter. I, therefore, urge the Leader to take on board Senator Denis O’Donovan’s request. While I am not seeking an Adjournment debate on the matter, I ask the Minister to show a more earnest concern on the issue.

We have now had 20 summits on the eurozone crisis. The latest continued for nine hours and has been adjourned until October.

The Ministers at those conferences have kicked the can down the road so often they could go to a concert in the Phoenix Park and fit in with the other people attending. We have to move away from the nods and winks, and the "It will be all right on the night" style of governance. In the Financial Times yesterday, Wolfgang Munchau stated that the eurozone crisis will last for 20 years. He stated:

The message I took away from the summit is that the eurozone will not resolve the crisis. In that sense, it was indeed a "historic" meeting.

We need to know whether we are looking for €32 billion, €64 billion or as much as €279 billion, which, according to the University of Limerick study, is the figure we owe on the covered debts of Irish banks. As a result of so many people failing to solve the crisis for the 20th time we need an independent council of economic advisers at European Union level, rather like our fiscal council.

They should know something about the subject, and it should include economists from outside the eurozone. I ask that our Ministers make that point because we cannot continue with euro crises happening all the time when there is massive unemployment throughout so many member countries.

I join with my colleagues, Senator O'Donovan and Senator Whelan, in expressing concern about the trainee pilots. Eighty-five thousand euro is a great deal of money for people to invest only to find they are keeping their side of the bargain but the people who agree to provide the training are not keeping their side of the bargain. It is important that there is a full investigation into this matter and a debate on it in the House.

I raise the issue of the decision by Allied Irish Banks to withdraw the medical graduate loan scheme. It has decided it will no longer provide loans for students who want to train to be medical doctors here. It is extremely disappointing that a bank which is owned by the Irish taxpayer has decided it will not provide funds for young people who want to train to be doctors here. It is sad that this bank has decided to withdraw the loan scheme and not provide funding for people who have the necessary criteria to get into college and who want to further their careers by obtaining a medical degree. If they cannot get a job here they can get a job anywhere in the world with a degree from an Irish university. This move is extremely disappointing. We should ask the Minister for Finance to come into the House to deal with this matter and discuss the reason the bank has taken this decision when all the other banks have decided to provide loans for students attending Irish universities.

I support the call made by Senator O'Donovan to discuss the breakdown in the commercial relationship between the pilot training centre based in Waterford and the Florida Institute of Technology. A number of Senators made the point that many young Irish trainee pilots have been left high and dry, and there is a responsibility on the State to protect young people who find themselves in this vulnerable position. There are issues in regard to visas. I am aware that the institute in Florida is doing its best but the Government has a responsibility also, especially in view of the costs many of these young people and their families paid out to ensure their children get the education and training they need.

It should be stated also that the State has made a significant contribution to this pilot training centre. In 2008, the centre received €18,000 in support from Enterprise Ireland. In 2010, the State agency invested €400,000 of taxpayers' money to take out what are called repayable preference shares in the company. There are legitimate questions which need to be answered. Questions arise in regard to the role of the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, and the reason it failed to spot this problem, and there are issues of regulation. Also, there are question marks over the Government's response and the supports it is giving to the people who find themselves in this position.

It is not good enough to say that we should raise this matter on the Adjournment when we are talking about a very serious issue affecting many young people who have been left stranded. There is a responsibility on us to have a full discussion in the House on this important issue to allow us ask the important questions of the Minister responsible, namely, the practical supports he will give to those young people who find themselves in this position and the steps he intends to take to ensure such mistakes do not happen again.

I support other Members who raised the plight of the trainee pilots, one or two of whom are from the Derry area. The families of these trainee pilots have invested a great deal of money in the training course and now face the possibility of that career being taken from them at short notice. I hope a resolution will be found so that they can complete their training.

I also wish to get an explanation from the Minister for Justice and Equality on the reason the High Court which is hearing appeals on circuit is sitting in Castlebar but is hearing up to 12 cases a day from County Donegal. One case being heard in Castlebar involves people from north Inishowen, which means they must make a round trip of 300 miles. It is the first time in the history of the State that the High Court on circuit has been held outside County Donegal to hear cases related to people from County Donegal.

That is a matter for the Courts Service.

This is a slight on the people of County Donegal. No other county in the country has had to have its cases heard in another county, the Cathaoirleach's home county. There is no apparent reason for this.

Senator Harte, this is a matter for the Courts Service.

I think, however, the Minister should come into the House and give us his view on it. Is it because the courthouse in County Donegal is not up to scratch? That is a matter for the Minister.

The courts are independent. The issue raised by the Senator is a matter for the Courts Service.

The facilities in County Donegal are as good as those in Castlebar. I tabled this matter for consideration on the Adjournment and I wish to highlight that the people of County Donegal should not accept this situation.

I second Senator Donovan's amendment to the Order of Business seeking an immediate debate with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar.

On a point of clarification, has Senator O'Donovan proposed an amendment to the Order of Business?

I understand he has and I would like to second it. I compliment Senator O'Donovan on his excellent work in this regard since it was first brought to his attention on 26 June 2012. I spoke to their spokesperson in Florida, Mr. Conor Deeney from Derry. They feel let down by the Government as they have been left stranded in Florida and the Government is taking no responsibility in this regard. The Minister, Deputy Leo Varadkar, is on radio and television programmes day and night. It is amazing that one Minister could be given such exposure and yet say nothing.

That is totally untrue.

He is an extraordinary Minister because he is ignoring the elephant in the room. These young people have invested between €85,000 and €91,000 for a course in the private Pilot Training College in Waterford, which is partly funded by Enterprise Ireland and registered by the Irish Aviation Authority. We have a direct responsibility in this regard and we cannot wash our hands of it and stand idly by. To be in government means Ministers take responsibility and action. It does not mean one gives soundbites on RTE or other media.

Soundbites in this Chamber.

It is about time the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport took action in this regard. The Florida Institute of Technology is owed $1.4 million, equivalent to €1.13 million, and has taken action. The chief executive of the Pilot Training College in Waterford, Captain Mike Edgeworth, has made no statement and furthermore the offer of places to complete the students' studies in England will require that further fees be paid, which will not be provided by the State. This is a very serious matter.

The Senator can make these points during the debate.

I hope the Cathaoirleach will direct that a debate will be allowed. I appeal to the Leader of the House, who is from Waterford.

This is a matter for the House. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Why should there be a cover up about this issue at this time? Nobody is prepared to say exactly what is happening. The debate in this House is going out live to those young people undertaking this course in Florida. Between 30 and 40 of the students on this course are from Ireland——

There must be a few students from County Roscommon.

The remaining 140 students come from countries throughout the world, some of which are in dire straits. Some of the African countries were marvellous to provide this funding.

As Senator O'Donovan said this undermines the credibility of private colleges. It reflects on this State that a private college can let down students. The State must take action now. I ask the Leader to facilitate a debate tonight, tomorrow night or during the week.

Very serious questions have arisen from the circumstances that surrounded the concert in the Phoenix Park and they must be examined urgently. I have no doubt they will be. The drink and drug-fuelled violence that ensued was appalling and horrific, and shocking for the image of Dublin and the country. The same can be said for the level of under-age drinking that occurred, with people wandering the streets out of their minds. I support the calls for the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House for a debate following examination of the matter by him, the Garda, the promoters and the Office of Public Works. I am not sure the Phoenix Park is suitable for a concert by such an act.

Hear, hear. The problem goes back to the repeal of the groceries order.

It does, actually.

Senator Paul Coghlan, please, without interruption.

I am dealing with this matter now and not the groceries order.

Another possibility is the availability of drink for young people.

Senator Norris has interjected already.

There is a more general point which is sad and reflects badly on us as a society. I am sure that Senator Norris has witnessed it because he often walks through the streets of Dublin.

Does Senator Paul Coghlan have a question for the Leader?

I have a question for the Leader. I refer to the behaviour, conduct and the manners of these young people on the streets of our towns, and not only on O'Connell Street about which Senator Sheahan spoke recently. One finds it around St. Stephen's Green or anywhere, and I witnessed it myself recently. It is shocking that these people, young boys and girls who look no older than 15 or 16 years of age, are out on the streets insulting people, visitors and locals alike. It is absolutely shocking.

Citizens should be able to ring a telephone line to immediately report these people whenever they observe them engaging such behaviour and have these citizens, these young people, lifted off the streets.

Tomorrow we will debate cancer and the serious efforts being made to tackle it. I am sure cigarettes will be mentioned during the debate. As someone who is bitterly opposed to smoking, I believe Senator Crown will make a strong case for banning smoking altogether. A figure I read today that caught me by surprise was the seizure of 7 million cigarettes at Dublin Port yesterday. That means 50 million smuggled cigarettes have been seized in Ireland in the past six months. That is a huge figure. Many of those cigarettes were counterfeit and would have endangered health even more than the risk of cancer from normal cigarettes. The Retailers Against Smuggling association has brought the matter to our attention and has called for a minimum fine of €10,000, as against the current fine of €1,000 which does not act as a deterrent to cigarette smugglers.

I am not sure I am terribly enthusiastic about the Retailers Against Smuggling because I am sure it is looking after its own interests. That said, we must accept the case given that 50 million illegal cigarettes have been seized already this year. There must be something that we can do or action we can take. I am told smuggled cigarettes are on sale at every farmers' market and every fair. Surely we can take steps to stop it. Some years ago one could not walk down Talbot Street or Henry Street in Dublin without being offered illegal cigarettes or cigarettes being sold for a low price. We have talked about alcohol being sold at below cost but cigarettes being sold at below cost do just as much damage.

We can take steps to deter it. One of them is to impose a minimum fine that will make smugglers think about the cost to themselves if they are caught smuggling cigarettes.

I want to question the role of the Civil Service here. Who runs the country? Is it the civil servants or is it the Ministers and Government? Since I was elected to this House, I have been infuriated by various Departments and how the Civil Service has misguided Ministers. The Department of Education and Skills recently gave the wrong information to the Minister on the issue of a small school. The Department apologised subsequently for its mistake but the damage had been done to the small school in my area. At committee meetings, officials from the Department of Social Protection tell us how they are dealing with appeals, how fast the scanning system is working and that the turnover time is three to four months, when in reality I had to write a letter this morning for a client who applied for carer's allowance last November and who has heard nothing since then. The Department of Health was advised by HIQA that Roscommon County Hospital was unsafe — and, consequently, we lost the accident and emergency department — yet it never visited Roscommon hospital. Officials from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government do not want my Wind Turbines Bill 2012 to see the light of day because it is contrary to the wishes of the Irish Wind Energy Association. However, the worst example is something that happened recently. I earmarked the need for an ambulance base in Ballaghaderreen, given that we are 30-plus miles from every hospital. I suggested to the county manager that we co-use the fire station in Ballaghaderreen and he considered it a great idea. I put it to the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, who said it was a great idea. I put it to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, who agreed it was a great idea. The chief ambulance officer for the western region sat down with the acting chief fire officer in Roscommon for five hours and they drew up an agreed plan. The station officer at Ballaghaderreen fire station and all the staff are agreeable. Mr. Colm McCarthy reported that services should be co-used and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, has said it is Government policy to share services. Yet a senior civil servant in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is trying to block it. I call for a debate on the role of civil servants and how they interact with Ministers. Who has the power?

As other speakers have said, what happened at the weekend concert in the Phoenix Park should be a wake-up call, although we have had wake-up calls in the past, going back to a tragic killing outside a nightclub in Dublin. In between we have had several other cases which should bring home to us that we have a ticking bomb in society when it comes to anti-social behaviour. In fact, it is more than anti-social behaviour, because that is giving a respectability to what is happening. It is sheer and brutal violence, not just among the perpetrators but targeting innocent people in the community. On television programmes recently I saw individuals who said they were walking down the street, not interfering with anybody or having an argument with anybody, and young boys and girls approached them and brutalised them on the street. It may seem the talk of an old fogey to speak about the abuse of alcohol. However, there is no doubt that alcohol is severely abused here. It is a drug. If we do not stand up and put our heads above the parapet, once and for all, backed by the media and all those who want a properly regulated society, we will reach a point of no return. The wake-up call from the Phoenix Park is but the start. Given the seriousness of the situation I ask the Leader, before the summer recess, to allocate a couple of hours to allow us debate the issue in detail. We must put our stamp, as an arm of Parliament, on what is happening and call for severe remedies — I am not talking about penal remedies — in the context of legislation. If that is not done following this wake-up call, we have missed another opportunity and we will be back here discussing it again in a couple of years.

I strongly support Senator Ó Murchú in regard to the concert in the Phoenix Park. While insufficient arrangements were in place for the orderly running of a concert, it is clear most of the problem was alcohol-fuelled. Clearly, a major scandal here is the issue of below-cost selling and a lack of control of alcohol. The multiples are running rings around us as legislators and around the Revenue Commissioners. There are three issues, including the damage to health and the associated costs of rehabilitating people severely damaged by alcohol. The loss of revenue to the Exchequer is alarming. A colleague produced figures over the weekend showing that one item sold below cost by Tesco during a bank holiday weekend cost the State €250,000. This one item over one weekend puts the magnitude of the problem in context. It is causing damage to small businesses and it is closing down pubs.

I was in a small shop in Kilconnell, outside Ballinasloe. The owner of the shop told me he was not renewing his liquor licence, which costs €1,000, because he cannot compete. It cost him over €24 to buy a case of alcohol direct from the supplier. It was being sold in a multiple in Ballinasloe for €18. That is another €1,000 lost to the State. We need a debate on how alcohol is regulated and controlled and how the State is losing so much money through the manipulation of the system, to their advantage, by the multiples. They are destroying the lives of so many young people. I support the call on the Leader to do something about this at the earliest possible occasion.

On the same subject, I welcome a debate on the issue. Of the 45,000 people who attended the concert, many had a good time. I had family members at the event. However, there is an alcohol issue in the country. One of the first steps we could usefully take is to provide an opportunity to invite young people's organisations to the Chamber. We have afforded organisations which wish to abolish the Seanad the opportunity to use this Chamber. We could listen to young people, for a change, and to what they feel are the steps to be taken to assist them to enjoy themselves. Far be it from me, as a relatively young Member of the House, to dictate how I think they should conduct themselves at a concert and whether alcohol should be available to people of certain ages. It would be useful to listen to them. In the earlier part of the autumn, perhaps the Leader can facilitate a debate by selecting a number of organisations representative of younger teenagers and those approaching their late 20s and 30s to inform the House how it can assist them to provide ways to enjoy themselves.

On the issue of below-cost selling, the groceries order was mentioned yesterday. The interference in it by previous Governments was not helpful. One must consider the elimination of the pub throughout Ireland, where barmen and responsible bar managers can control the environment and the level of alcohol being consumed by people. It is a better approach than the cheap below-cost selling by supermarkets used to attract people to buy other goods. If the approach is to be useful, it must start with young people, not with Members.

Any inquiry by the Committee of Public Accounts or the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform that cannot establish facts and culpability is useless. The people have paid the price for the terrible negligence and behaviour of people who did their jobs and did not do their jobs in respect of the bank guarantee. We owe it to the Irish people to establish facts and culpability. Regardless of what has been said today, let there be no banking inquiry until we can establish facts and culpability.

Like others, I refer to the terrible loss of life at the concert in the Phoenix Park. I extend my sympathy to the families involved. As a parent of one teenager and one younger person, I know fellow parents are tearing their hair out. We are failing completely with drugs, drink and young people. We are totally lost and we must use this moment to unite and deal with it.

A range of solutions is required. Will the Leader invite the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to the House to discuss legislative, educational and parenting solutions? It is the norm now for young people to walk around with a crate of beer under their arms. I saw a young man walking along the street the other day with a crate of beer in one arm and a loaf of bread in the other. Children are losing weight because they are consuming too much alcohol and not eating. What happened in the Phoenix Park at the weekend is horrific. It is an issue not only for concert promoters but also for nightclub owners. There are frequent incidents in nightclubs of young people being kicked in the head while they are on the ground. It is a wonder more are not killed as a result of such incidents.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

There must be adequate security procedures at all concerts, with entrants searched not only for drink and drugs but also, where necessary, refused entry if they are already clearly intoxicated. The first person who overdosed at the concert at the weekend got into difficulty early in the evening, at 7 p.m. We need to quit talking about this problem and instead agree to address it in a multi-pronged way. If legislation is required, it should be introduced without delay.

I join colleagues in expressing concern at what happened in the Phoenix Park at the weekend and the ongoing problem of excessive alcohol consumption in our society. We have had many debates in this House on the need to curtail alcohol advertising, particularly where it is linked with sporting events in the context of sponsorship. There has been a great deal of hand-wringing, but we seem to fall down when it comes to specific actions in this area. I asked some weeks ago whether the Government has specific timelines for introducing legislation to address these problems. I look forward to a greater urgency in this regard.

I welcome Senator Healy Eames's reference to the importance of education in tackling the widespread misuse of alcohol. I suspect that a survey of citizens on what they consider the main national emergencies facing the country would show a universal focus on the economic crisis. At the same time, however, there is a type of dullness of thought around the severe problem of alcohol abuse in this country now and into the future.

People who indulge in alcohol in this way seem to be revealing some very tragic neurosis in the Irish psyche. Of course, not everybody behaves in this manner, but it is a sad reflection on those who do. While I agree with Senator MacSharry that it is appropriate to listen to young people, I warn against a kind of timidity whereby we would stand back from declaring to the younger generation what it is we expect of them. We must be far more ready to lead by example ourselves and to tell young people what is expected of citizens of this country. Let us listen to younger people by all means, but we must also be clear and focused in our strategies for dealing with this serious problem.

I am loth to repeat what has already been said. I agree in particular with the points made by Senators Labhrás Ó Murchú and Michael Mullins on the events in the Phoenix Park at the weekend. I take this opportunity to express my sympathies to the families of those affected. Nobody expects a young person who goes out in the evening to attend a concert not to return home. In my professional life I often defend nightclub and pub owners who are sued when a person is seriously injured on their premises. Notwithstanding the frequent debates on the broader issue of alcohol abuse, the deaths at the weekend must serve as a serious wake-up call to all of us in this House. We cannot have a situation where young people have such easy access to cheap drink and drugs that they can get themselves out of their mind to the extent that they will treat other people any which way. Such behaviour presents a serious threat to the person engaging in it, to others and to society.

We must have a zero-tolerance approach on this issue. It has worked in New York and can do so here. I urge the Leader to invite the Minister to the House to discuss possible legislative solutions to deal with the problem. Senator Rónán Mullen got to the nub of the matter in his suggestion that this is not something children are picking from the trees. Rather, they see older people behaving in an inappropriate away because of excess alcohol consumption. It is learned behaviour which is cultivated and promoted among younger people. I have spoken about this issue numerous times. We have already held a Private Members' session on the below-cost selling of alcohol. I back up the comments of Senator Mullins in this regard. The multiples are running rings around us and we need to take control of the issue. There may be a loss of money to the Exchequer. We are broke at the moment and we need the money but that is a minor issue compared with the fact that people can go into supermarkets, see stacks of drink everywhere, bring it home and stuff themselves with it. They can end up in hospital and endanger other people. I am passionate about this issue. We need to get the Minister in here to discuss it as a matter of urgency.

What is it like in France?

I support the calls for a debate on the pilot training issue. I call on the Leader to do his utmost to get it on our schedule, if possible. I commend the Senators who have raised the matter, in particular, Senator O'Donovan, who has given strong leadership on this from day one. It is an important issue and we stand to be counted on how we support our young people, especially when they are in trouble abroad.

I am horrified at what occurred in the Phoenix Park but it is not a once-off phenomenon. Only last week an eminent journalist died following an unprovoked, random attack. Some months ago there was mayhem in the streets of the city in the mid-afternoon. Last year, a young Polish man, a shift worker going to his place of work at 7 a.m., was kicked to death on the streets of Dublin. It is not only a city phenomenon. It is taking place in rural towns and villages after night clubs close at weekends. There is always a concern at festive occasions that something like this will occur as well.

I heard a well-known, long-established and experienced county councillor on the radio recently. He was discussing the fears of elderly people living in rural places. We have gone back to the days when, out of fear, people hid bill hooks and pikes in the thatch to protect themselves. This is taking place at a time when we are being threatened with the wholesale closure of police stations. The Leader knows what I am talking about because he raised the issue only last week, as did Senator Leyden.

Have you a question for the Leader, Senator?

I am asking for the Minister for Justice and Equality, DeputyShatter, to come before the House to discuss the rampaging crime we are witnessing day in, day out. I seek assurance from the Minister that the presence of the Garda in rural places will be protected. It is not all about drink. The emphasis so far has been on drink and, certainly, it is a significant factor, but drug abuse is ten times worse and more at the root of the problem. One can drink so much but somehow manage to behave oneself, but if one takes those drugs — people are prepared to pay any price for them and price is not a factor——

That is a dangerous attitude.

The drugs must be stopped.

Like the others speakers, I believe I was the first in the House to raise the pilot training issue last Wednesday. I am not satisfied it is being addressed with the urgency it demands. There seems to be an authority in charge of every second thing in the country. The Irish Aviation Authority appears to be washing its hands of this problem. The statement on its website suggests it is looking for other training for those students but it does not state that the other training colleges will not charge those students more money. This must not and, one hopes, will not be allowed to happen. I call on the Leader to ensure the Minister brings the Irish Aviation Authority to heel and determines whether the authority sought evidence, which it has the power to do, that this school had enough funds in its kitty to run the course and take on students. That is one of the primary aims of the Irish Aviation Authority but I am unsure whether it has done so. If it has done this, the money should be there to pay for the training. Why is it not there? The Minister must find out. There is no way those students can be asked to pay for it.

I wish to raise an issue with the Minister for Health. Why are people not availing of the free dental scheme? Only 600,000 people took up the scheme last year but 3.3 million are entitled to it. This is the only health area where, out of a budget of €63 million that was allocated in 2011, only €51 million was spent. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Health about it? We know oral health is related to heart disease and every other type of health. It is preventive medicine and will save the country money. If one avoids dental treatment for too long, it becomes much more expensive. It is throwing good money after bad to say the only ones entitled to receive dental care are emergency cases. I ask the Leader if we can have a debate on this issue as it is looking at it the wrong way. We should be providing funding for preventive dental care services.

Every Member of this House and the other House has been highlighting the need for a strong, independent banking inquiry, including the bank guarantee. Following the expenditure of some €64 billion, one of the committees of the Houses, under the stewardship of Deputy John McGuinness, has published a roadmap for how such an inquiry could take place. I was flabbergasted and taken aback by the comments of a Minister on Sunday. At lunchtime on Newstalk the same Minister lambasted the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, the work the committee had done, the recommendations it had made and the roadmap it had set out.

That is wrong. The Senator is misrepresenting the Minister.

We have dealt with this issue.

There was no personal attack.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I have. The Minister has undermined the workings of the Committee of Public Accounts and should hang his head in shame.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I want to ask him since when have Labour Party and Fine Gael Ministers joined the establishment in not seeking a banking inquiry.

That is what they are seeking.

Let the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources come before this House to explain his flippant comments to the people and the change the Labour Party has initiated. We remember that before the election it was "Frankfurt's way or Labour's way". Today it seems it is the Labour Party's way to follow the bankers.

As the Senator knows well, the only party which voted against the bank guarantee was the Labour Party.

The Labour Party voted in this House to renew it.

I voted against it——

The Senator cannot wash her hands of it. She voted in favour of it. If she believed it was so wrong, she should have voted against it.

We are way overtime and Senator Darragh O'Brien is not helping the cause.

It is unfortunate that it took the incidents in the Pheonix Park at the weekend for people to express their frustration at the abuse of alcohol and drugs. I have raised the issue here on a number of occasions, but I am not holding my breath that something will happen because it is six weeks since I wrote to the Garda Commissioner about the activities engaged in on O'Connell Street, the Liffey boardwalk, etc., and I have yet to receive a reply.

I want to pose a question about the shambles at Ulster Bank and make the following points. If wages are still being paid into customers' accounts, lodgments are still being made and money is not being distributed to pay bills by direct debit, etc., it is safe to assume that Ulster Bank has built up significant deposits in recent weeks on which, no doubt, it will have earned interest. I seek clarification on the interest it has earned on such deposits since the commencement of the IT glitch. I assume the idea that it should profit in any way from this affair would not find favour. I hope, therefore, that any interest earned on deposits will be given to customers. Personally, I am sick of hearing the CEO of Ulster Bank state customers will not be out of pocket. I believe the figure being amassed on a daily basis on deposits is massive. One must deduce, therefore, that it is not in the bank's interests to sort out the IT problem quickly because it is earning significant interest on deposits on a daily basis.

It would be remiss of me not to talk about the subject that has been talked about the most, the incidents in the Phoenix Park on Friday night last. I was saddened when I heard about them on Saturday morning. Perhaps we do not need an inquiry to find out what happened but a complete ban on the holding of concerts in the Phoenix Park. As someone who grew up and, perhaps, knows every blade of grass and nook and cranny in the Phoenix Park and every street adjacent to it, the OPW has done a phenomenal job in recent years in attracting visitors to it. Irrespective of what inquiry is done by the Garda, security company, concert promoters or Office of Public Works, nothing will change what was done in the Phoenix Park by a few young people. Thousands of people use the park daily. It is home to Dublin Zoo and hosted the Bloom festival over the June bank holiday weekend. Wonderful cycling, motor, athletics and cricket events, to name but a few, are held regularly in the Phoenix Park, but one does not hear anything about the benefits it provides for the good citizens of the country. Why has the Phoenix Park been brought into disrepute? The reason is that concerts, whether held here or anywhere else in the world, attract drugs and alcohol. I drove through the Phoenix Park on Thursday last at approximately 5 p.m., which was several hours before a concert was due to commence, and I was appalled to see people carrying crates of beer and consuming drugs in full view. The issue is not the security at concerts, as the promoter, Garda and Office of Public Works will agree, but the fact that the grounds of the Phoenix Park are too large to secure. I ask that the Minister of State with responsibility for the park, Deputy Brian Hayes, ban concerts in the park.

The events of the weekend in the Phoenix Park must not be tolerated and require an immediate investigation. A fortnight ago, shortly after the murder on the streets of Dublin of the eminent journalist, Mr. Eugene Moloney, I was visited in the House by a young man and his family. The young man in question, as a university student, had been attacked in the centre of the capital 25 years ago. The outcome was a successful one for him because he kicked the living daylights out of five people who attacked him and his girlfriend. We blame young people for everything but the eldest of the attackers was 35 or 36 years old.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I call for an urgent debate and investigation into recent events. Similar incidents are taking place in many towns. Only two or three weeks ago, the eminent journalist, Mr. Eugene Moloney, was murdered while going about his business. The young man to whom I refer was doing the same. Gardaí must be more visible on the streets at night. We can talk all day and night but action must be taken by the Minister and Garda.

A large number of the issues raised require a detailed response. Senator Darragh O'Brien raised the issue of the Committee of Public Accounts carrying out an inquiry into the banking sector. The Government is determined to get to the bottom of what took place on and around the night of the bank guarantee. Its objective is to ensure the most effective mechanism is used to get to the truth. The focus is to have a very robust form of inquiry within the confines of the Constitution and which sheds as much light as possible on who was involved, politically and administratively, in the decision-making process that resulted in the State being in the debt-ridden position we are working hard to undo.

Since the outcome of last October's referendum, substantial and detailed analysis has been carried out on the scope for Oireachtas inquiries operating within the parameters set out by the Abbeylara judgment. The main conclusions of this legal assessment are summarised in the recent letter sent by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform to the Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts following the Government's consideration of options for an Oireachtas inquiry into banking matters at the end of last month. As the Minister's letter makes clear, the work carried out by his Department and the Office of the Attorney General highlights that there are two main options which need to be evaluated carefully in determining an appropriate legal framework for an Oireachtas banking inquiry.

As regards the committee that should deal with it, I have an open mind on this. I actually believe the Committee of Public Accounts should be the one that deals with it but the Government needs to reflect on the basis of the Attorney General's legal advice as to what type of inquiry meets our objective and is legally robust. I believe this is what everybody in the House wants and Members have commented in that regard. It is important we examine all the proposals and listen to the views of both committees and of the wider Oireachtas. However, it is essential we get the structure right, which is what everybody in the House wants. We will have the Minister, Deputy Howlin, in the House on Friday next so we will have an opportunity to raise items with him then.

With regard to the issue raised concerning the Minister, Deputy Hogan, I understand court proceedings were issued against Dublin Docklands Development Authority last week so perhaps that may be the reason. However, I am not sure why that action was taken.

Senator Bacik called for a debate on the merits of another referendum on Oireachtas inquiries, which we may consider. She also mentioned the excellent work of Mr. Chuck Feeney and his charity organisation, which is closing down.

Senator Norris referred to the Leveson inquiry and the press. We had a very comprehensive debate on the whole area of the media on 22 February, in which Senator Norris took part. We are also looking for a debate on media ownership, which I am trying to arrange with the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte. We cannot be having debates on the press every day in the House as there are other things we have to do.

Senators Martin Conway, Paul Coghlan, Eamonn Coghlan, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Marc MacSharry, Michael Mullins, Fidelma Healy Eames, Rónán Mullen, Catherine Noone, Ned O'Sullivan and Tom Sheahan spoke about the incidents in the Phoenix Park on Saturday last. I share the widespread public concern at the series of disturbing incidents which took place at the concert. Gardaí are reviewing what happened and are in touch with the concert promoters in this regard. I agree that what we have witnessed, even in photographs in the newspapers today and earlier in the week, is absolutely appalling, and it is wrong to see that type of behaviour on the streets of our capital city. It was brought to my attention that before they went into the concerts, many people were loading up their beer on the steps of the Courts Service, the main court building of this country. This should not be allowed to happen; of that there is no question. More generally, it is worth noting that developments will be taking place in the near future in regard to licensing of the event and security sectors, so there will be an opportunity for the House to discuss the whole question of security for such concerts.

The question has been raised as to whether such concerts should be allowed in the Phoenix Park. Again, we will certainly raise the point mentioned by Senator Eamonn Coghlan with the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, and the OPW. I am sure people will have second thoughts about holding such concerts in the future when we see such despicable behaviour. I would agree with all the Members I have mentioned that most of the trouble was fuelled by young people drinking to excess and, indeed, taking illegal drugs. I will certainly try to arrange a debate in the House. Senator MacSharry raised the question of young people coming to talk to the Seanad in this regard. I know this is an issue Senator O'Keeffe has raised with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and we are endeavouring to have young people come to the House, perhaps in the autumn, to discuss a number of problems which they may have. These incidents were undoubtedly deplorable and must be addressed. On the issue of anti-social behaviour, the Garda Síochána uses the broad range of current legislative provisions to tackle all such behaviour and street violence robustly, including conduct attributable to excessive drinking. These provisions include powers granted under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Acts and the Intoxicating Liquor Acts. In addition, the Criminal Justice Act 2006 introduced incremental procedures for addressing anti-social behaviour by adults and children. Gardaí may also issue fixed-charge notices in respect of offences of intoxication in a public place and disorderly conduct. In other words, a range of mechanisms and legislative processes is already in place, but the measures must be implemented. If the Garda requires additional resources to do so, those resources should be granted.

We cannot tolerate what happened in the Phoenix Park at the weekend. I am told by younger people that the concert in question featured a band which attracts a troublesome element. Others, however, have said that similar problems have arisen at other concerts in this location.

The band performed at two other venues on the Continent and there was no trouble. This is an Irish problem.

It is certainly an issue that must be addressed.

Senator Denis O'Donovan and other speakers referred to the problems at PTC Waterford. As Senator O'Donovan mentioned, I have suggested that he raise this issue as an Adjournment debate matter. Nevertheless, I will endeavour to have the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport come to the House for a debate. In the meantime, I propose that an Adjournment debate would allow for the specific facts of the case to be addressed. I appreciate Members' genuine concerns on this matter, which I have already raised with the Minister.

The Irish Aviation Authority has responsibility for approving and overseeing flight training organisations in the State, of which the pilot training centre in Waterford is one. The company operating that facility also has a training college in Florida. The facility in Waterford is experiencing certain difficulties in regard to the fulfilment of its obligations to students. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, has advised me that the Irish Aviation Authority, which comes under his remit, is treating the matter very seriously and is keeping him updated on developments as the situation evolves. The Minister has reached agreement with the authority that it will fund the flight costs of those self-financing students in Florida who have an existing contract with the pilot training college and wish to leave the United States. The authority has also assured the Minister that all flight and ground training carried out to date in Florida will be credited towards the students' final qualifications. The aviation authority has had a representative in Florida for several days to offer assistance to students, approximately 80 of whom are Irish, on a one-to-one basis. That representative has now returned to Ireland and the authority is sending a replacement to Florida.

The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport is in regular contact with the authority and is monitoring developments closely. The authority has assured the Minister that it is making every effort to ensure the situation is resolved satisfactorily. It is working with the pilot training college in Waterford and other training centres to explore how students might be facilitated in completing their training elsewhere, either in Florida or Ireland. That is the most up-to-date information from the Department. I do not know whether the Minister could add anything further if he were to come to the House. However, I do not propose to——

These young people have been cheated out of substantial sums of money.

——accept the amendment to the Order of Business.

There is fraud occurring somewhere.

I will endeavour to have the Minister come before the House if he has anything further to add to what I have already stated.

The same reply was given last week.

It is not the same reply I gave last week.

I shall study it with great interest.

The Leader, without interruption.

The type of catty comments that have just been made are not worthy of a Member of this House.

Senator Whelan and others also referred to the matter with which I have just dealt.

Senator Barrett referred to the number of EU summits that have been held and called for the establishment of an independent economic council in Europe. I will raise that matter with the Minister for Finance. I have a lengthy reply in respect of the EU deal on bank debt but perhaps we will discuss that on another day. I take on board the Senator's point and I will raise it with the Minister.

Senator Harte referred to the issue of the courts in Donegal. As the Cathaoirleach correctly pointed out, that is a matter for the Courts Service rather than the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Senator Quinn raised the seizure of 7 million illegal cigarettes at Dublin Port and pointed out that over 50 million such cigarettes have been seized to date this year. The Senator is correct to observe that these cigarettes are sold at farmers markets, car boot sales and elsewhere. However, I wish to praise the Garda and Customs and Excise which are both doing an excellent job in tracking down these cigarettes and other contraband goods that are being brought into the country. We all appreciate the health problems associated with cigarettes. Such problems are exacerbated for those who smoke the type of cigarettes to which the Senator refers as a result of certain substances the latter contain. I agree with the Senator that there should be a minimum fine for people who are caught either in possession of or selling these cigarettes. I will certainly raise the matter, as appropriate, with either the Minister for Justice or Equality or the Minister for Finance.

Senator O'Sullivan requested a debate on law and order and raised the issue of the closure of Garda stations. The Minister for Justice and Equality will be coming to the House before the end of the session in order to deal with certain matters. I will try, however, to arrange a separate debate on the question of law and order and policing.

Senator Keane requested a debate on the free dental scheme. I will endeavour to have the relevant Minister come before the House for such a debate.

Senator Sheahan referred to the situation at Ulster Bank. I agree that no bank should profit from what has occurred in this regard. Representatives from Ulster Bank came before the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform last week. In my opinion, those people have even more questions to answer now than was previously the case.

I believe I have covered most of the items raised. I apologise to Senators if I failed to provide answers in respect of any of the questions that were asked.

Senator O'Donovan has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate on the difficulties being encountered by the trainee pilots who were attending a flight school in Florida be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Yes. With respect, I do not doubt the sincerity of the Leader or the response he provided. He obviously received a briefing note in respect of this matter. Two of the student pilots in question e-mailed me this morning and indicated that they are flying home tomorrow at their own expense. There is something rotten going on here. I am not blaming the Minister but there is no doubt that this problem must be dealt with as a matter of urgency. These people's visas are expiring and they have received notices to quit. In such circumstances, I must press the matter to a vote. I will raise it again tomorrow and perhaps the Leader might be in a position to provide assistance in respect of it at that point.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 36.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Brien, Darragh.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • White, Mary M.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Crown, John.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D’Arcy, Jim.
  • D’Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O’Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O’Keeffe, Susan.
  • O’Neill, Pat.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
  • Whelan, John.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Denis O’Donovan and Ned O’Sullivan; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.
Barr
Roinn