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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 28 Mar 2013

Vol. 222 No. 8

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re disability sectoral plan of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, to be referred to Joint Committee on Transport and Communications, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, motion re insolvency proceedings, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 1; No. 3, Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) Bill 2013 - all Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 2 and conclude not later than 2 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons on Second Stage not to exceed six minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed three minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 1.30 p.m., and Committee and Remaining Stages to be taken immediately thereafter; No. 4, motion for earlier signature of Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) Bill 2013, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 3; No. 5, Health (Alteration of Criteria for Eligibility) Bill 2013 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 2 p.m. and conclude not later than 4 p.m.; and No. 6, motion for earlier signature of Health (Alteration of Criteria for Eligibility) Bill 2013, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 5.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, "That No. 16 be taken before No. 1."

As we have seen in recent days in the fallout from the Garda conferences, there is the threat of suspension, as I mentioned yesterday. Rather than it being diffused, it appears to have grown further legs where the Minister, the Garda Commissioner and other authorities have got involved and that those involved will be disciplined. That is regrettable. I ask the Deputy Leader to make contact with the Minister for Justice and Equality, even at this late stage, to diffuse the row. There is no need for it. The Garda has a very difficult job and a limited set of tools with which to highlight its concerns. In the confines of its own conference this was done. I am not necessarily condoning what they did but to move to a disciplinary process, following what happened, will not endear the Government and the authorities to the Garda or contribute to morale at a time when it is at an all time low. We should seek to build bridges and ensure the Garda has everything it needs to carry out its difficult job on our behalf. I do not believe any disciplinary action should be taken against the four gentlemen who, in the final analysis, were raising issues of genuine concern to their members.

This week a year ago, Dún Uí Néill Barracks in Cavan closed with the transfer of 120 Army personnel from the Border county of Cavan to Athlone. At the time, my colleague who is attending another meeting, Senator Wilson, warned of the potential for dissident activities increasing as a result of the removal of the security which was offered by the Army barracks and personnel there. We have seen in recent weeks where two cars on the Border of Fermanagh and Cavan were picked up loaded with explosives. As none of us need be reminded, the G8 summit takes place in Fermanagh later this year and it is vitally important that security is provided on both sides of the Border for it. I wonder whether the Leader could inquire as to what aspect the Army will take in the preparations for it and highlight that Dún Uí Néill Barracks, had it still been open, would be an obvious location from where to carry out this work.

I ask the Deputy Leader to inquire of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, in terms of its visa issuing procedures, that it would interline with its British counterparts, in particular, in the context of the G8. It has come to my attention this morning that the substantial Russian and Chinese delegations making inquiries to base themselves south of the Border in preparation for the G8 summit are being hampered seriously by the authorities, both in Britain and in Ireland, which are responsible for issuing visas for this purpose.

I listened carefully to Senator MacSharry on the matter of the Garda. I am sure he will agree that his party's Dáil spokesperson, Deputy Niall Collins, to whom I listened earlier on the radio, was quite measured on the matter. This is a matter for the Commissioner. It is a disciplinary matter. As Senator MacSharry's Dáil colleague stated, an apology was in order. Any further comment on our part would be inappropriate as they are now into a hearing on the matter. We should leave it alone and be calm and measured.

I welcome the proposal of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney. He is an amazing man, if I may say so, fortunate with a good deft touch. We have had the success of the fisheries negotiations, saving all the fish that are being wasted.

He did not do so well on the horsemeat controversy.

The Minister is doing well overall. He is very steady.

Slightly compromised.

And the CAP proposals.

Senator Leyden has already indicated that he wants to speak.

Others behind me are more knowledgeable and may speak further on this matter. On the proposal regarding the microchipping of dogs to make owners more careful, it is a matter where the numbers are on the rise. We all have heard of incidents where the problem is out of control. I am familiar with some of the fouling that goes on in the national parks and other public places. This is an area in which there is a need for control and the Minister's proposals are quite timely. I will leave it at that because Senator Comiskey and perhaps others will deal with the matter more fully.

I ask the Deputy Leader to organise an immediate debate and bring the Minister for Finance into the House on the liquidation of the IBRC and the actions by KPMG, the liquidator appointed. It seems that many of the contracts for sale that were to be processed by the IBRC prior to its liquidation will now be held up for four months, and possibly longer, as a result of the appointment of this liquidator. They seem to have the view that they must reappraise all the sales and go through all those proposed contracts. Obviously, this is holding up a significant amount of sales that were approved and which may not go ahead because of the delay. There are those who want to buy some of the homes. There are commercial property and business is being held up. A significant tranche - billions of euro worth of property are involved in this - will be delayed as a result of the liquidator's actions. I ask that the Leader bring in the Minister for Finance, or at least get an explanation, and organise a debate as to why the economy is being held up by the actions of the liquidator. This involves a delay in people's lives and the slowing down of the economy. We want the economy to move forward, yet, through the actions of liquidators, instead of allowing sales and contracts - ones that have been approved and, in some cases, signed by one of the parties - to go through, they will be stalled. We could see those sales collapse at a loss not only to those involved, but also to the taxpayer. I ask the Deputy Leader to organise a debate on that issue.

I support my colleague's call for an inquiry into why the visas for Chinese and Russian delegates visiting Ireland will be delayed. We have one of the most appalling visa processes in the Western world. Instead of encouraging investment from BRIC countries, the Government discourages it by the visa process. I ask the Deputy Leader to organise a debate or get the Minister into the House to explain why officials from China and Russia will be put through a tortuous visa application process in Ireland. Instead of making it easier and encouraging trade with and visits to Ireland, the Government is discouraging it.

I join my colleague, Senator Paul Coghlan, in welcoming the good news announced yesterday by the Minister, Deputy Coveney, that all dogs will be microchipped. This is a good move. It will create better animal welfare in the first place. It is important that we keep the cost to a minimum and that there is no extra cost, in addition to the licence fee, on dog owners. For any of us who have been affected by the considerable problem of dogs worrying sheep, particularly at this time of year, this will control them. I read in the newspapers yesterday that a young girl was mauled to death in England in a dog attack. It is important that we control dogs and ensure they are registered and that owners know where their dogs are at all times and keep them under control.

Yesterday, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, a regular visitor to this House and participant in some interesting discussions, announced that he was impatient but not reckless regarding the reform of the points system. I was pleased to hear that.

One of the targets chosen is to reduce the number of high-point programmes at entry which have grown from 387 to 946. He stated, "We have to call a halt to the exponential growth of course options in the interests of students." Of course, those course options were put there in the interests of students and they are successful. That is how the high points became attached to them. Points simply allocate a limited number of places among competing applicants. The evidence is that high points will lead to good results at third level and low points, unfortunately, will lead to less good results.

Six quangos, no less, participated in the exercise yesterday. It has not yet been discussed at the governing bodies of universities or with those who teach freshmen in the universities - I am proud to have done that for three or four decades. There is not a problem in the points system in that regard. The leaving certificate is within the Minister's province, but telling universities to abolish courses because they are high-point courses is a wrong way to approach it. I am glad for the Minister's reassurance that he is not a reckless person.

There is a problem. These high-points courses should have more resources put into them. The high points indicate their success. We should look at low-points courses and low-points students to whom we should also give resources because the evidence is they will find it difficult to progress. I ask the Deputy Leader for a debate based on the evidence of the relationship and the transition between second and third level education in Ireland, without the six quangos but with those directly involved in teaching freshmen.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and welcome him back. I congratulate the Minister for Social Protection on extending the fuel allowance by one week in recognition of the extremely bad weather. I ask the Deputy Leader again to arrange a debate on fuel poverty. On 1 May the cost of solid fuel will increase which will affect the poorest people in Ireland, the people who do not have central heating. As I said earlier this week, heating costs for older people and people who live in poverty is prohibitive and needs to be addressed.

I congratulate Senator Bacik on her recently published report on prison reform. She championed the topic for a long period. I seek a debate on the report because it is important and made a number of very important recommendations.

Yet again I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on banking. Recent figures show that lending to SMEs was down 5% in 2013 and we are also aware that lending to the mortgage market is at all time low. The economy will never return to good fortune if the banks do not play their part. Again we can see that they are not willing to lend to SMEs or the mortgage market. The time has come for us to reflect on the role of banking. We cannot have the Minister for Finance here often enough. As the Leader pointed out, he has attended here on a number of occasions to debate matters like the Finance Bill. However, he has not been here to discuss the specific issue of banking. I want the Leader to address the request to the Minister, not the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, who is regularly sent here for debates.

I second the proposed amendment to the Order of Business. The acting Leader of the Opposition, Senator Marc MacSharry, tabled item 16 on the Order Paper. I support the comments he made regarding the proposed disciplinary action against four Garda sergeants from the Carlow-Kilkenny area. I have a vested interest because I was nominated by the GRA and the AGSI-----

A vested interest.

-----to be a candidate in the Seanad, with my colleague, Senator Ned O'Sullivan. I have dealt with the organisations in the past 11 years and have always found them to comprise of the most honourable and decent people.

They have their own difficulties

They work on behalf of their membership. The Government and the Minister for Justice and Equality are very sensitive. When my party was in government the GRA and the AGSI protested at the back and front doors of Leinster House.

We sat down and discussed their concerns with them, particularly the late Deputy Brian Lenihan and the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Dermot Ahern. In my memory no Fianna Fáil Minister has ever directed a Garda Commissioner to take disciplinary action against a member of the Garda Síochána or the association that represents sergeants and inspectors. It is extraordinary what a sensitive soul the Minister is.

The Senator should know that this is a matter for the Garda Commissioner.

I suggest the Taoiseach move the Minister, Deputy Shatter from the Department when the Government is being reshuffled because Deputy Shatter can no longer negotiate with Garda sergeants. I hope a reshuffle happens soon.

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader? A reshuffle is the prerogative of the Taoiseach.

(Interruptions).

I have a question for the Taoiseach.

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?

I wish to make a good suggestion to the Taoiseach when he considers a reshuffle in due course. With regard to the outcome of today's by-election, Fianna Fáil is polling extraordinarily well. It seems my party will get one in every three seats and two seats in every five seat constituencies. The polls are encouraging.

Do not be premature.

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader on today's Order of Business?

When I was in the Department of Health protests took place all over the country. I was abused and accused but I never reported any member of the staff of the then health boards or reprimanded them-----

They are not a disciplined force.

-----or recommended disciplinary action. Fianna Fáil is a much broader church.

Let us end on that happy note.

We cannot have a political speech.

My party is more mature. We are not sensitive about----

The party has led us to where we are.

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader? Senator Leyden's comments are not relevant to the Order of Business.

That broad church has led us to where we are.

I wish everybody a happy Easter and that he or she has a peaceful and a good time. I am sure that we will all be working over the period. On our return I hope we will discuss the whole situation regarding the Garda Síochána and its pay and conditions. I also suggest the Minister for Finance intervenes and meets both sides to discuss their concerns.

I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange a serious debate after Easter on the roll-out of the personal insolvency legislation and the ramifications of the targets set for homeowners. I have closely examined the legislation and there is a real danger that the Government may have inadvertently given the banks too much authority. Ironically, the remarks made by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport may have done us all a favour. He shone a light on the over dictatorial and over authoritarian approach to families adopted by the banks. Women and families are well able to do their maths. We do not need the banks telling us what to prioritise. We all know that the family home is sacrosanct. However, it is unwise for banks to now have the authority to set limits on the amount of money that we should spend on food and on health cover. Of course, banks can give us guidelines and recommendations but we must watch where power lies. Let us not forget that a short time ago it was these same banks that all of the citizens of the State, which includes the homeowners who are now in trouble, had to bail out. I want the Minister for Justice and Equality to come here to hear the reality of how the mortgage arrears situation works. I have said in the House and to the Minister for Social Protection that they have directed people to travel to the North of Ireland to receive dental care. They have also told families of five that €200 per week is too much to spend on food. We must examine priorities. People must eat.

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?

My question was given. The Minister for Justice and Equality and perhaps the Minister for Finance must examine the ramifications of the targets that were given to banks. If the targets hit homeowners in a way that we cannot manage then the whole of society is at risk. They could result in a collapse.

The early word from Ashbourne seems to indicate that our colleague, Senator Thomas Byrne, has exceeded 30% of the poll. It is a great performance by him and our party. Without conceding anything, it looks like the Fine Gael candidate, Ms Helen McEntee, will also be successful and nobody on this side of the House begrudges her success.

Members may have watched a programme aired on television during the week on the chronic lack of nurses who specialise in the care of sufferers of Parkinson's disease in the south.

It would like sending an SOS from Titanic.

Some place other than Ashbourne.

Was the message a bit delayed? There is an excellent neurological team at the Cork University Hospital which works at the coal-face in terms of research on Parkinson's disease. Its work is being hampered by the lack of specialist Parkinson nurses. Six specialist nurses are attached to the Dublin region and there are several located around the country, including Galway and all of the major centres. Cork is the centre of the health universe in the south but has not one Parkinson nurse. The omission was highlighted by a team of specialists, one of whom is my son. I ask the Deputy Leader to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Health and ask him to remedy the situation. Clearly, it is an unfair and anomalous situation which must be addressed.

I wish to bring the attention of the House to the Geneva Window masterpiece by Harry Clarke located in Miami, Florida. The Irish Arts Review and other people engaged in the arts have launched a campaign to return the window to Ireland for The Gathering event to celebrate a gathering of our greatest Irish writers. The window depicts 15 Irish writers. It was commissioned in 1926 by the Irish Government for the League of Nations headquarters in Geneva in order to showcase Ireland. It is the best piece of stained glass that has ever been designed. We all know about Harry Clarke's stained glass windows and many of them are located in churches and so on. The Geneva Window depicts Irish writers and brought together the best Irish writers. Unfortunately, after it was commissioned there was controversy when the then President saw it because of Liam O'Flaherty's depiction which included a scantily clad but not nude women but these days we are able for it. The window should be returned to Ireland for The Gathering, although we may not be able to afford to purchase the window. The Clarke family treasured the window until 1988 when it sold it to the Wolfsonian Foundation in Miami.

Yesterday, we were talking about philanthropy and foundations. I congratulate the Independent Senators for bringing that matter before the House. It was Mr. Mulcahy at the Irish Art Review who started this campaign to try to get the window back. We owe it to all Irish writers to be included in our own gathering because it is the most iconic work of visual art to have come out of Ireland in the 20th century. Harry Clarke died at the tender age of 41 and this was his last masterpiece. It would be great if we could get it back here. Obviously, we cannot afford to buy it back, but perhaps we could get it back for The Gathering. I am asking the Deputy Leader to request the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, to intervene to do what he can in this regard.

I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for the handsome certificate that all of us have received from you. It was a most generous and imaginative act to celebrate the fact that we are all Members of Seanad Éireann on the 90th anniversary of the House.

Good thinking, a Chathaoirligh.

I express my thanks to you for this.

I hope it is not the leaving certificate.

A second leaving certificate.

It usually goes out after one completes it.

I also wish to raise the question of the Garda. I am also very concerned about this matter. By and large, the Garda Síochána commands the respect of all the people in this country. I believe, however, that certain elements of the Government have started to behave in an extraordinarily arrogant fashion. The blame may not be all on one side, but I was very surprised when the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, dragged his wife into the equation. I do not think that was wise. In terms of the well-being of the State it is essential to have good relations with the gardaí. Everything that is being done by the Government, however, appears to have provoked them further. Nonetheless, I believe the Garda has acted with a fair amount of dignity.

I also feel there is an unnecessary curtailment of freedom of speech. In this situation, to arraign four senior members of the Garda Síochána before a kind of star chamber is not appropriate. It is even worse to hear that a member of the Garda Síochána who was going about his business, doing his family shopping in Ratoath, who was approached by an electioneering party, including the Taoiseach, and then expressed his mind to the leading politician in this country is also under investigation. That is outrageous. I ask the Leader if the Minister for Justice and Equality can attend this House to give an undertaking that no procedures will be taken, particularly against an individual, that is, the garda in Ratoath who was approached and canvassed by the Taoiseach. The garda then explained to him what he felt. He has every reason to feel aggrieved, as many other sections of society have. I was with a number of Members of both Houses at a briefing of the front-line services and gardaí were literally in tears because they have no money. It is reasonable that they should express this to the Taoiseach. Any attempt to clamp down on this must be strongly resisted by the Seanad.

I take the opportunity to thank Mr. Jimmy Walsh for the enormous effort and dedication he has shown to this House through his journalism. I wish him well in his retirement. I hope he will write his memoirs because such observations on this House would make interesting reading. I have told him that I look forward to seeing his memoirs. I am sure he will always be welcome in this House and I wish him well for the future.

I add my voice to those who have been discussing the observations of the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, on working women and the cost of child care. I obviously support the right of all men and women to go to work. The cost of child care should never be taken into account in insolvency calculations. I suspect that somebody, perhaps over-enthusiastically, added that idea to the draft to be controversial and perhaps try to raise a debate about the nature of insolvency calculations. I certainly do not think that this one will fly, but I support Senator Healy Eames's call for a debate on the insolvency guidelines when they are finalised, not in draft form. I am sure that will occur after Easter when we might have such a debate. It will affect many people and I would like to think that this House could contribute to that debate.

I dtosach, ba mhaith liom Cáisc faoi shéan agus faoi mhaise a ghuí leis na Seanadóirí agus leis an fhoireann ar fad a bhíonn linn anseo. Ócáid faoi leith í seo nuair a bhímid ag cuimheamh ar na laochra a d'imigh romhainn aimsir na Cásca 1916 agus a throid ar son saoirse na hÉireann in amanna eile. Tá sé tábhachtach smaoineamh orthu sin.

The Deputy Leader has a specific interest in legal issues. The whole idea of a constitutional right to freedom of association and organisation, as well as the right to freedom of speech, is something we all hold dear. In the context of the current situation concerning the Garda Síochána, and what I would term a peaceful protest that happened at the AGSI conference, I have called previously for a debate on peaceful protests and what should be legally allowed and acceptable in this context in the State. I remember calling for such a debate when we had the "Occupy" camps in Galway, Dublin and elsewhere. Certain elements wanted the camps moved along quickly, while others said they had a right to protest peacefully. In a civilised society that is a principle we should hold dear. What the four gardaí did at the AGSI conference was a form of peaceful protest.

My understanding is that members of the Garda Síochána were not part of the Croke Park I or II negotiation system. They were handed a piece of paper telling them about the conditions they would have to accept. It is perfectly acceptable that gardaí, on whom we depend to defend our communities and work on our behalf, should be able to have some form of protest. I also note that it is something parliamentarians use on occasion. When the Gaeltacht Bill was being debated last year in the Dáil, Opposition politicians of all hues used the peaceful protest of walking out on the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley. I do not see the difference between the politicians who walked out there and the gardaí who walked out in protest at a Minister at the AGSI conference. I find it a bit rich that Deputy Niall Collins of Fianna Fáil has asked the gardaí in question to apologise. He should apologise to the gardaí for even asking them to apologise.

That is respect for democracy.

All they were doing was to express, in a peaceful and civilised manner, their disdain at the way they are being treated. I would say they are doing that in the public interest because they are out there to defend us day in and day out. They are the people on the front line and know how cutbacks are affecting the service they are trying to deliver. They are trying to communicate to the Minister that all is not well. We would welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality here to discuss his relationship with front-line Garda personnel. I commend them for the peaceful protest they made.

I support my colleague, Senator Healy Eames, in calling for a debate on the personal insolvency guidelines. It does appear that banks are getting too much power and that they will attempt to call the shots on how people live their lives. This is particularly galling for taxpayers who have bailed out banks to such a large extent. It is a pity that the banks were not more meticulous when they were handing out large loans. They should have better checked out people's creditworthiness and the sustainability of business plans that were put forward by some developers. Had the banks done so, we would not be in the state we are in today.

I share the outrage of many at the obscene salary figures published yesterday in respect of some employees of the national broadcaster. In some cases, those salaries are multiples of what the Taoiseach earns. Such salaries are not sustainable in this day and age. I welcome the fact that significant cuts, as high as 30%, were made to some of those salaries. However, I would like to know how RTE management could have allowed such obscene salaries that could take a 30% cut yet still be huge. How could that have been allowed to happen in this country? It is time for a debate on our television licence and whether the taxpayer is getting good value for money. If the people in RTE are not getting it, it is time to cut the cost of the television licence and hit them where it hurts most.

While we all want a good public broadcasting system, in many cases we must ask whether people are getting good value from some of the so-called highly paid stars. What do some of them contribute to making this country a better place and to economic recovery? Many of the programmes are phone-in programmes that are full of negativity. It is time to have an open and frank discussion on what we pay our stars in RTE and whether we are getting good value for money or if the moneys collected in the licence fee should be spread more evenly so that local radio stations and media outlets would benefit from the television licence.

Yesterday, members of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications, of which I am one, travelled to RTE at its invitation to see at first hand the work being done in various departments within the station. One of the most enlightening and informative aspects of the visit was the newly developed digital department which is now relaying programmes on RTE Player and iPhones and tablets, not only in this country but among the Irish Diaspora. There is a strong response from the Diaspora to the service being provided.

I accept to some extent the critique of RTE by Senator Mullins. I would be the last to defend some of the large salaries being paid but one must keep in mind that RTE is a national broadcaster that is competing with some of the largest multinational media organisations, in particular the Murdoch organisation. Great credit is due to RTE and those involved in the production of programmes. People vote with their feet both in television and radio, as they do in politics, and the top ten programmes consistently come out of RTE. I suggest a note of caution to Senator Mullins, through the Chair, on his critique of RTE and his call for a reduction in the licence fee on which it depends to a great extent because of the downturn in economic activity and, consequently, a reduction in advertising revenue. One of the areas we visited yesterday was the “Fair City” set. I discovered that more than 300 actors are employed by RTE at one level or another ranging from speaking parts to non-speaking parts, from major parts to ones of lesser importance. Currently, of 1,500 members of Irish Equity, almost 1,000 are out of work. When one considers that RTE employs 300 actors, it puts in perspective how important it is not only as a producer of television and radio programmes and digital output but also as a major employer. I caution that when one is being critical of RTE - it has been a favourite sport for decades to toss RTE around, so to speak - to recall that it provides not only a valuable public service to radio and television but it also provides meaningful employment. One should be cautious in suggesting its income should in any way be restricted.

That is not to say that the work of local radio stations is not to be encouraged. I declare an interest in that I present a programme on local radio and I know how difficult it is for the local radio sector currently because, like RTE on a micro level, it has to engage with local suppliers and finds it very difficult to raise advertising revenue. We must nurture and encourage all sectors of the media in this country but I would be cautious in my approach. While being critical of RTE and unwilling to defend the salaries, which relative to the wider economy are extraordinarily high, at the same time there is another story within RTE that needs to be aired on occasion.

Following on from Senator Mooney, what amazed me about the figures for RTE is how some among the top ten earners in RTE work every day for the same money as others who have only one show a week, amounting to less than 30 shows. I am perplexed at how those numbers are arrived at and I would welcome a debate with the Minister who could provide a more in-depth analysis.

I wish to raise the issue of the Garda in the context of the Personal Insolvency Act. Most people are aware that a member of An Garda Síochána is disallowed from being declared bankrupt. I have not been able to ascertain whether a member of An Garda Síochána is entitled to avail of the Personal Insolvency Act. It is a legitimate question in that when someone is declared bankrupt, his or her assets and liabilities are analysed and dispersed according to the court assignee. In effect, that is what is happening in line with the Personal Insolvency Act by agreement with the banks. I do not know whether the Garda is excluded from the legislation. If it is excluded, a change must be made to allow it to be included as a matter of urgency. The omission could have slipped through undetected by me and everyone else. It is a real concern.

The anger I have witnessed from members of An Garda Síochána relates to younger members who have bought expensive houses at the height of the property market. Those members of the force are stuck in the same downward spiral as many others but, to my knowledge, everyone else will be allowed to avail of the Personal Insolvency Act and I do know whether members of the Garda have recourse to it. I ask that the issue be brought to the attention of the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, for immediate clarification.

I request the Leader to consider having a debate on medical and biomedical research, which is a very important sector of the economy. I spoke a little about some aspects of it yesterday. Not only does it increase the standards of science and medicine and the standards of research but it also improves clinical outcomes for patients and has positive and beneficial effects for the economy. My concern is that one aspect of the system – I am sorry for getting a little bit technical – which has worked relatively well looks like it is about to undergo a substantial change. It is probably putting it too strongly to say I am troubled but I am a little in the dark about it, namely, the situation with respect to the ethical research committees which exist in hospitals. Every hospital must have an ethical research committee. In this country when a new trial involving a new drug or medication of a research nature is being introduced it must have the approval of a statutorily constituted ethics committee.

The 2004 European clinical trials directive had many negative features but it had one positive one, namely, that the verdict of any legally constituted ethical research committee in a hospital applied in every other hospital in the country. One does not have to apply individually. We have a two-step process for the approval of clinical trials in this country, which is correct. There is a national regulatory approval system conducted by the Irish Medicines Board and a second layer of approval is conducted on an ethical level. The remit of ethics committees is to ensure the research is ethical. That constrains the enthusiasm of doctors who have an academic self-interest and sometimes of companies that have a financial self-interest. Until now, the ethical research committees, which operate in response to statute and are regulated, answer to the Minister for Health, but apparently as part of the new health information Bill there is a suggestion that they will in some sense be answerable to the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA. Not alone would that not be optimal, it would not be appropriate because HIQA is also the body which has direct responsibility for assessing the cost of treatment in this country and directly or indirectly makes critical decisions and gives the Minister advice on which drug should be used on the grounds of health economics. It is a colossal conflict of interest for it to be responsible also for clinical research and I believe we need to have a different structure for it.

I run international research trials which recruit patients across different countries. Ireland has an extremely good reputation for having a professional and efficient clinical trials approval process which is streamlined and works relatively quickly. The United Kingdom in contrast, from where much of the intellectual inspiration for HIQA has come, has perhaps the worst reputation in Europe and as a result my British colleagues are exasperated at their inability to make high quality clinical trials and new treatments available to patients who are often in desperate situations.

The baby and bathwater spring to mind here but the more appropriate way to look at this is to ensure we do not develop an unnecessary solution to a problem that does not exist. The Minister should keep his eye firmly on this. This is the sort of thing people think is very technical and people in the Department will be able to handle this but it really needs careful consideration and consultation. I propose that in this Chamber we would schedule a debate on this critically important sector of the economy and health sector, biomedical research.

Before calling Senator Bacik, I join other Members of the House in wishing Mr. Jimmy Walsh, the journalist from The Irish Times, well in his retirement. He had a very sharp mind and if there was any variation to a Bill, to procedure or to votes in the House, he was on to it like a shot. There are many well known and senior journalists whose articles were based on information they received from Mr. Jimmy Walsh. He will be missed around the House, having given it great service. I wish him well in his retirement.

I would like to be associated with that comment.

We would all like to be associated with the Cathaoirleach's tribute to Mr. Jimmy Walsh. A number of us took the opportunity to wish him well yesterday.

Senator Marc MacSharry has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business in respect of No. 16, his Private Members' Bill. I am accepting the amendment. He also referred to the row between the Minister for Justice and Equality and the GRA and the AGSI. As Senator Paul Coghlan said, a disciplinary hearing is under way today in respect of the four sergeants; therefore, any direct comment is inappropriate. All of us, however, hope the row does not escalate further. The idea of an apology and an invitation from the GRA to the Minister to its AGM, as Deputy Collins suggested, is a good one.

The Minister might apologise.

Senator Marc MacSharry also raised the issue of the closure of barracks in Cavan in the context of the G8 summit in Fermanagh, which we all welcome because it will be a great boost for the region, not just north of the Border but also in the immediate vicinity south of the Border. I am sure security arrangements are in hand for the summit.

The Senator also raised the issue of visas, particularly in respect of the Russian and Chinese delegations to the summit. I had not been aware of a particular difficulty, but it would be good for us to debate unnecessary visa restrictions in a more general sense because in the year of The Gathering we do not want to put unnecessary obstacles in the way of people who wish to come here.

Senator Paul Coghlan also raised the issue of the Garda and complimented the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine on his proposals for the microchipping of dogs. It is a welcome proposal from the point of view of animal welfare. Senator Michael Comiskey raised the more serious issue of the horrific mauling to death of a 14 year old girl in England. Microchipping offers safeguards for people in general because it makes dog owners more accountable and will have positive implications in rural areas where sheep worrying is an issue and in urban areas where it will have an impact on dogs fouling pavements, a less serious matter but annoying nonetheless. This move will make dog owners more accountable and be of benefit to animal welfare. I also welcome the Minister's announcement that he will work with veterinary practitioners to ensure dogs can be microchipped for as close to cost as possible.

Senator Mark Daly raised the issue of the IBRC and the liquidator and called, as did Senator Hayden, for the Minister for Finance to come to address it. Senator Mark Daly also called for a debate on the visa issue. I have asked for this to be arranged.

Senator Sean D. Barrett mentioned the proposal of the Minister for Education and Skills on the reform of the points system, on which he said he was impatient but not reckless, which the Senator sees as a good combination. I complement the Senator on the excellent reception and debate at the Hist which Senator Norris chaired and at which I spoke. It was an outing for the Trinity College Senators to the oldest debating society in Ireland and a great evening was had by all.

There is a woman auditor.

She is a law student and a very capable auditor. I cannot yet claim to have spent three to four decades teaching freshmen, but I agree with Senator Sean D. Barrett's point on the need to ensure choice at third level. The Minister is not threatening this or suggesting courses should be abolished, rather he is saying the points race should be streamlined to ensure less multiplicity of courses. Reforms are in train in Trinity College Dublin and other colleges. The idea is to make the system better for students, rather than reducing choice.

Senator Aideen Hayden welcomed the extension of the period for the fuel allowance by the Minister for Social Protection which is very welcome, given the terrible weather we have been having. The Senator also called for a debate on fuel poverty which I will ask the Leader to arrange. She very kindly mentioned the report published yesterday by the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality on penal reform which I authored. I hope we can debate that report before the summer. There is good coverage in the newspapers today of some of the recommendations made in it and a welcome editorial in the Irish Independent calling for the report to be implemented. It makes some sensible and practical recommendations to reduce prison numbers and bring about a greatly improved penal system.

The Senator also called, as did Senator Mark Daly, for the Minister for Finance to attend the House for a debate on banking. I have made that request, but I point out that we had a debate on banking in July with the Minister in which only 12 Senators took part. I hope there will be greater participation on the next occasion.

Senator Terry Leyden seconded the amendment proposed by Senator Mark MacSharry and gave advice to the Taoiseach on a potential Cabinet reshuffle. I am sure the Taoiseach will be very grateful.

The Senator would make a very good Minister. I will put that on my little list.

I am delighted to be on that list, I think.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames referred to the draft insolvency guidelines which will be published next week by the PIA. It would be a matter of great concern if the final version were to include what we have seen in the draft Niamh Connolly first reported in The Sunday Business Post and a possibility that parents would have to give up work if their child care costs were too high. Many of us have said in the media that this should not be included in the guidelines and Senator Fidelma Healy Eames put it very eloquently. It would be a matter of grave concern if parents were to be forced by banks to give up work because of child care costs. It would be utterly short-sighted and guidelines that suggest it would be wrong.

They are draft guidelines.

That is right and the final guidelines may well be changed.

I was very impressed with the Senator's defence.

I would welcome and will request a debate on the issue. In the course of that debate we might look at the system set up by the Minister for Social Protection for a mortgage arrears information and advice service that was launched in September. It includes a website, keepingyourhome.ie, which has had 65,000 visitors and an information helpline. There other ways by which people can receive disinterested and impartial advice on how to cope with high mortgage payments. That is something we should highlight.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan referred to the result of the Meath East by-election. He appeared to have news from there, but it might be a little early to tell. I know the Labour Party candidate, Councillor Eoin Holmes, ran an excellent campaign in which I was proud to help.

He is on 5%. With the margin of error, that could be 2%.

How many boxes are we talking about?

Senator Ned O'Sullivan referred to an anomaly in medical care in the south. I will ask the Leader to pass on that concern to the Minister for Health.

Senator Cáit Keane raised the issue of the Geneva window, the Harry Clarke window currently in Miami. I thank the Senator for raising that issue as I had meant to do it. I had the privilege of meeting Mr. John Mulcahy of the Irish Arts Review in the last couple of days and he is really pushing this issue. He made the sensible point that it would be wonderful to have this window brought back to Ireland for The Gathering, even on loan from the gallery. I will write to the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to ask him to look into this. The Senator might also take up the issue directly with him.

I will also discuss it with him.

Harry Clarke is one of our great artists and to have the window back for The Gathering would be hugely important.

We all join Senator David Norris in thanking the Cathaoirleach for the issuing of certificates marking our time as Senators. It is very nice to have it on the wall.

It is a form of P45.

We will see. Senator David Norris also raised the issue of the GRA and the AGSI. I agree with him that in respect of the off-duty garda who was canvassed in Meath East, it is hard to imagine disciplinary action being taken in that case, particularly as the debate between the off-duty garda and the Taoiseach was robust but amicable and they shook hands at the end.

The Taoiseach was told a few home truths.

I imagine home truths were exchanged on both sides.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe paid tribute to Mr. Jimmy Walsh. She also referred to the personal insolvency guidelines. I will seek a debate on the guidelines after they have been published in their final form.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh raised the issues of Easter 1916 and freedom of association and speech for the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors. While I would welcome a debate on the right to protest and freedom of association, we must recognise that disciplined forces such as the Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces are different. It is naive to suggest the recent incident can be compared to an elected politician walking out of the Dáil or Seanad Chamber. Incidentally, I am not inviting the Senator to do so. We must recognised that these are two very different scenarios. As a criminal lawyer, I have immense respect for the tough work done by gardaí, but I also recognise the importance of their role as a disciplined force.

It is worth noting that the GRA and the AGSI had an opportunity to participate in the negotiations facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission and were called upon to do so by the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Taoiseach and others.

They were not at the table but in a side room.

If I may correct the record, they chose not to participate. As the GRA and the AGSI are not trade unions, they are not represented by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. They would have had parallel negotiations, which is the position that applied to the Defence Forces' associations which concluded a deal with their management counterparts which was facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission. Their representatives chose to stay in the talks, as did the Prison Officers Association which represents another disciplined force and conducted parallel negotiations. The POA is different to the extent that it is represented by the ICTU. However, owing to the unique issues which arise in the Irish Prison Service, it was able to conduct parallel negotiations on behalf of its members. No one suggests prison officers and members of the Defence Forces were disadvantaged by sectoral talks. It is disappointing that the GRA and the AGSI chose to leave the process as they may well have shaped the outcome of the talks in the best interests of their members, as other comparable unions and associations did. That is an important context in which this row has emerged.

Senator Michael Mullins referred to the insolvency guidelines. I agree with him that it is galling for taxpayers to read the prescriptive advice that appears to have been given in the guidelines. He also raised the issue of salary levels in RTE and called for a debate on achieving value for money for the television licence fee. Perhaps that issue might best be discussed at the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. Senator Paschal Mooney referred to a visit yesterday to RTE by members of the joint committee and noted the good work done by the public service broadcaster. No one could defend the salary or fee levels at RTE. Part of the problem is the current pay structure in place because the figures published recently do not refer to salaries but fees negotiated, sometimes on an annual basis, with incorporated companies representing individual presenters. While the fees are excessive and disproportionate, there is clearly a process under way of negotiating them downwards. I welcome the significant cuts in fees and I am sure we will see them negotiated further downwards. The matter would best be addressed by the joint committee which may well invite RTE management to come before it to explain how the process of negotiating fees is undertaken.

Fees have declined by 30% in the past three years.

That is correct and I anticipate further reductions. The previous snowball effect in terms of fees was upwards, but it has been reversed.

Senator Michael D'Arcy also referred to RTE and raised an interesting question as to whether a garda could avail of the measures provided under the new Personal Insolvency Act. Having checked this issue, I understand from the Department of Justice and Equality that there is nothing to preclude gardaí from making an application under the personal insolvency legislation and those who do would not lose their jobs. That is a welcome clarification.

Senator John Crown raised the issue of biomedical research and pointed out that Ireland had a good reputation in the area of international medical trials.

HIQA would like to end it.

It would be good to have a debate on the issue, particularly given the expertise the Senator and others have in the area of research, ethics committees and so forth.

Senator Marc MacSharry has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That No. 16 be taken before No. 1." The Deputy Leader has indicated she is prepared to accept the amendment. Is the amendment agreed to? Agreed.

Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.
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