Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 19 Jul 2013

Vol. 225 No. 5

Membership of Committees: Motion

Senator Maurice Cummins

I move:

That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders—

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames be discharged from the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs and Senator Catherine Noone be appointed in substitution for her;

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames be discharged from the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection and that Senator Imelda Henry be appointed in substitution for her;

Senator Paul Bradford be discharged from the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality and that Senator Tony Mulcahy be appointed in substitution for him;

Senator Catherine Noone be discharged from the Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht and that Senator Pat O’Neill be appointed in substitution for her;

Senator Paul Bradford be discharged from the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges and that Senator Deirdre Clune be appointed in substitution for him; and

Senator James Heffernan be discharged from the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs and that Senator John Kelly be appointed in substitution for him.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Kelly who wishes to raise a point of order

Senator John Kelly

It was brought to my attention that I have been nominated to the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs. Whereas I am honoured at being nominated for membership of the joint committee, I was not aware of the circumstances as to how the vacancy arose. On that basis I am not prepared to take up that position.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Senator John Kelly

I ask the Leader to have me formally removed from the committee. I fundamentally disagree with the bully boy tactics of removing Oireachtas Members from committees.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is out of order.

Senator John Kelly

I disagree that Deputies and Senators are expected to park their conscience at the front door of Leinster House and act like robots for five years.

Senator David Norris

Well said.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Kelly, resume your seat. Is the motion agreed?

Senator David Norris

On a point of order-----

An Cathaoirleach

I will allow the Senator to make a point of order.

Senator David Norris

Can one force a Member onto a committee? Apparently one can break all the rules and force them off a committee. A motion that nominates a Member against his or her will cannot be moved.

Senator Jim Walsh

I wish to raise a point of order.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Walsh.

Senator Jim Walsh

Would any other Members like to emulate the principled position that Senator Kelly has taken? I think this is the opportunity to do so.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Senator Walsh resume his seat?

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I request a direction from the Chair on motion No. 1. On the basis of Senator Kelly's contribution in which he stated he was now unwilling to take up his nomination to replace Senator James Heffernan on the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs, how can we pass it when it refers to Senator Kelly in the body of that motion? Would it not be better for the Leader to withdraw it until a replacement is found?

An Cathaoirleach

This motion sets aside Standing Orders. Senator Kelly can take up his issue with the leader of his group, Senator Bacik, and resign from the committee.

Senator David Norris

The shape of things to come.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I respect the rulings of the Chair, but it would be outside of Standing Orders on the basis of passing a motion. When a Member does not want to go on the committee, it does not make sense. The Member has made a statement. Can we withdraw motion No. 1 and return to it on Monday?

Senator Denis Landy

I would like a direct answer to my direct question. Can this matter be deferred until-----

An Cathaoirleach

The matter is-----

Senator Denis Landy

It is amazing that the Chair can interpret and respond to something I have not said. May I please ask a question?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, Senator.

Senator Denis Landy

Senator Kelly has publicly indicated on the floor of the House that he is not prepared to take up the position on the committee. Can we defer No. 1 until Monday and deal with it in a proper fashion?

An Cathaoirleach

We cannot defer it. The motion is before the House.

Senator Denis Landy

A Chathaoirligh, may I finish, please? I would like to be able to listen to the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

The motion is before the House. I cannot withdraw or defer the motion.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

A committee of this House is charged with the responsibility of appointing people to committees and discharging them from committees. The courtesy was not given to that committee to deal with its business.

An Cathaoirleach

This motion is setting aside Standing Orders.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Setting aside Standing Orders is to side-step my party. It is a disgrace.

An Cathaoirleach

I have to deal with what is put before me. I am putting the question. Senator Mullen on a point of order.

Senator Rónán Mullen

From time to time it falls to the Chair to make Cathaoirleach's rulings in circumstances where there is an absence of clarity in the Standing Orders. I think there is a potential legal difficulty here perhaps of constitutional significance. I was certainly unaware when I raised the concerns this morning that the proposals being made were not based on consultation with all of the people involved. The Cathaoirleach would be within his rights, given the dubium that has arisen, to make a temporary Chairman's ruling that this motion not be taken, notwithstanding that things have got to the point they have come to this morning. It would be more seemly to do that.

An Cathaoirleach

That is outside my remit as Chairman. I cannot set aside or defer a motion. This motion sets aside Standing Orders. I must deal with the motion before the House.

Senator Terry Leyden

On a point of order, I think the Cathaoirleach would be well advised to take legal opinion now.

An Cathaoirleach

The House sets its own rules.

Senator Terry Leyden

I commend Senator Kelly on his outstanding contribution to the House by the stand he has taken. As a fellow Roscommon man, I am very pleased with the position he has taken.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Senator Leyden resume his seat? I call Senator Norris on a point of order.

Senator David Norris

I pointed out at the beginning that it seems extraordinary and ultra vires to nominate somebody without his or her consent, bypassing the committee, and the Cathaoirleach said this sets aside Standing Orders. This is nothing short of tyranny. I think this is the shape of things to come under this Government if we abolish Seanad Éireann. It is unparalleled. I am here more than a quarter of a century and I have never witnessed anything like it in my entire life.

An Cathaoirleach

Resume your seat, Senator.

Senator David Norris

It is a violation of democracy. A man can be forced onto a committee when he does not want it. He wants to withdraw from it. Where are we going with this?

An Cathaoirleach

Please resume your seat. Does Senator Walsh wish to raise a point of order?

Senator Jim Walsh

It is a point of order in light of the unprecedented announcement which nullifies the motion before the House.

An Cathaoirleach

It does not nullify it.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

It does, he is correct.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, please.

Senator Jim Walsh

Can I ask the Chair to hear independently a point of order? I will be very brief. I have one sentence. If the Chair stopped interrupting it would be so helpful to us to get through the business of the House, if the Chair does not mind me saying so. My point of order is because the motion is now nullified by the withdrawal of one of the individuals mentioned in the motion, I am proposing an amendment that it be referred to the appropriate committee for consideration. That is an amendment to the motion - that it be referred.

An Cathaoirleach

It is too late to put an amendment. It does not nullify it.

Senator Jim Walsh

I will table an amendment if there is a seconder.

An Cathaoirleach

You cannot put an amendment at this stage.

Senator Paul Bradford

Be it a point of order or an observation, I want to put on the record of the House that it is historically unprecedented, not just in this House but perhaps in the entire Oireachtas, that we apparently are set to vote onto a committee a person who does not wish to be a part of that committee. I ask that in a moment of reflection and calmness, we do what is the only right thing to do and withdraw the motion and reflect and make a decision on Monday. If this House has any respect not just for its traditions but for its possible future, it must reflect and withdraw this motion and consider it on Monday.

An Cathaoirleach

Only the Leader can withdraw the motion.

Senator Paul Bradford

I appeal to the Leader to do so.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I have never come across this situation. I appreciate the dilemma the Cathaoirleach is facing but if we are being requested to pass a motion which is worded in the manner in which it is worded, and now that those words are inaccurate and no longer relevant, surely we cannot as a House pass this motion. We are legally constrained.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader has moved a motion and it is before the House.

Senator Paschal Mooney

The motion he put before the House is now inaccurate. It is naming a person who has stated publicly that he does not wish to be part of the motion.

An Cathaoirleach

The House can take that into consideration.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

It would seem to me that the Cathaoirleach has been placed in a difficult and unprecedented position. Is it within his remit to adjourn the House for 15 minutes to give us an opportunity to take advice on this matter? The Whips might want to have a discussion on it as well. I do not think it will help if we just go forward with this. An adjournment of 15 minutes might help everyone.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Hear, hear.

An Cathaoirleach

I am not adjourning the House.

Senator David Norris

I have a point of order.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator O'Sullivan.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

My point of order has been made by Senator Ó Murchú. I was also going to ask whether it would be in order for the Attorney General to be called here to deal with the Leader and the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not in order. I call the Leas-Chathaoirleach, Senator O'Donovan.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

I have a brief point of order. I am usually brief anyway. I have been in this House for approximately 14 years. This is the first time I have stood up to raise a point of order. I am deeply concerned that what has been proposed is an abuse. I want to get the advice of the Leader and the Cathaoirleach. This Standing Order is usually used in emergency situations, such as severe economic difficulties or war. Is it being used now to usurp existing committees which are being passed over? I ask for time to be provided for calm reflection. I have been told to consult senior counsel with a view to taking this matter a step further.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

On a point of order, I want to say-----

An Cathaoirleach

Have you a point of order, Senator?

Senator Darragh O'Brien

It is a point of order. I want to back the Leas-Chathaoirleach up. As Leader of the Opposition, I am formally asking the Cathaoirleach to consider adjourning the House. We are going to seek legal advice on this immediately. I ask that the House be adjourned until 2 p.m. to facilitate that. The Cathaoirleach has heard from Members. I am asking formally that the House be adjourned. I am putting it on the record of the House that we are going to seek legal advice on this matter.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Norris have a point of order?

Senator David Norris

I would like to make a simple and quick point. I think it is a point of order.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

Can we have silence in the House, please?

Senator David Norris

If, as this motion purports, Standing Orders are suspended completely, I do not see any reason the Cathaoirleach could not take an amendment because there are no Standing Orders governing it.

(Interruptions).

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

We are not able to hear the Senator.

Senator David Norris

I was saying to the Cathaoirleach that this motion purports to suspend Standing Orders. As we are in a kind of vacuum with no rules and regulations, the Cathaoirleach cannot rely on Standing Orders to rule out an amendment. I would have thought we can table an amendment because Standing Orders have been lifted.

An Cathaoirleach

Standing Orders are being set aside in relation to this motion only.

Senator David Norris

Yes, but an amendment to the motion would relate to the motion.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader of the House has moved a motion.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Tá brón orm, a Chathaoirligh. Gabh mo leithscéal. I asked you a specific question. I have formally proposed that the House be suspended until 2 p.m. Will you do that?

An Cathaoirleach

I cannot do that.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Why not? You can adjourn the House.

An Cathaoirleach

I can only do that in the event of disorder. There is no disorder in the House at the moment.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

On that basis-----

An Cathaoirleach

I have a proposal from the Leader.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

No, sorry-----

An Cathaoirleach

Is the motion agreed to?

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I will not agree to that.

An Cathaoirleach

I am putting the question.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

No, no.

An Cathaoirleach

Will those in favour say "Tá"?

Senator Darragh O'Brien

No, no.

An Cathaoirleach

Will those against say "Níl"?

Senator Darragh O'Brien

No, no.

An Cathaoirleach

I think the question is carried.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Excuse me, a Chathaoirligh. The question is not carried. You cannot move a division at this stage.

An Cathaoirleach

Vótáil.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

You are bang out of order there, a Chathaoirligh.

An Cathaoirleach

I am not out of order.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

You are bang out of order. Senator Kelly wishes to speak.

An Cathaoirleach

Vótáil.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

You cannot move to a voting situation now.

An Cathaoirleach

I have no choice.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

A Chathaoirligh, the Fianna Fáil Party in this House will withdraw from this House and from all the proceedings of this House today because of the outrageous lack of democracy that has been shown here this morning. My party is leaving this House now and will take no further part in the proceedings of this House. It is a disgrace.

Senator John Gilroy

Good luck with your opportunism on that one.

Senator John Kelly

I was prepared to offer a compromise.

An Cathaoirleach

The vote is being taken, Senator.

Question put.

The Seanad divided by electronic means.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

A Chathaoirligh, faoi Ordú 62(3)(b), ba mhaith liom go dtógfaí an vóta ar bhealach eile seachas ar bhealach leictreonach. Iarraim vóta siúil.

Question put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 11.

Tá

• Bacik, Ivana.
• Brennan, Terry.
• Burke, Colm.
• Clune, Deirdre.
• Coghlan, Eamonn.
• Coghlan, Paul.
• Conway, Martin.
• Cummins, Maurice.
• D'Arcy, Jim.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Hayden, Aideen.
• Henry, Imelda.
• Higgins, Lorraine.
• Keane, Cáit.
• Moloney, Marie.
• Moran, Mary.
• Mulcahy, Tony.
• Mullins, Michael.
• Noone, Catherine.
• O'Keeffe, Susan.
• O'Neill, Pat.
• Sheahan, Tom.

Níl

• Barrett, Sean D.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Healy Eames, Fidelma.
• Mac Conghail, Fiach.
• Mullen, Rónán.
• Norris, David.
• Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
• O'Brien, Mary Ann.
• O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
• Reilly, Kathryn.
• van Turnhout, Jillian.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Rónán Mullen and David Norris.

Question declared carried.