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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Oct 2013

Vol. 226 No. 9

Issues Facing Small and Medium Enterprises in Rural Towns: Motion

I move:

That Seanad Éireann:

- notes with concern that SMEs in rural towns are suffering currently with many vacant units appearing on main streets as they struggle to compete on issues like parking costs with large out-of-town shopping malls;

- notes the urgent need for an urban renewal scheme to incentivise the refilling of vacant units, and notes further the impact of upward-only rent reviews in bringing about the closure of businesses in regional towns where commercial leases were entered into prior to 28 February 2010 (therefore not falling under the protection of Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009);

- notes the great work of the business improvement district scheme, BIDS, in delivering significant positive impacts for economic vitality and the viability of town centres;

- proposes that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government should support initiatives such as a first hour free parking scheme for town centres and main streets to help counteract the unfair advantage of out-of-town shopping complexes;

- proposes further that the Department should consider the provision of statutory recognition to initiatives such as pop-up shops; and

- proposes also that the Government should consider adopting measures to alleviate pressures on town centres and main street businesses through measures such as:

- encouraging and support the letting and reopening of derelict properties in town centres and main streets;

- adopting schemes to promote town centre and main street revamps, as well as the regeneration of shop-front facades and signage;

- schemes to curb anti-social behaviour in town centres and to incentivise multinational outlets which source locally-produced materials rather than importing goods from other countries; and

- schemes to attract investment and improve infrastructure and competitiveness in regional towns.

I welcome the Minister of State. This important motion has come about as a result of the demise of rural towns across the country, particularly the centres of rural towns. Some 90,000 people own and are employed in independent family shops which generate €3.5 billion annually. The broader retail sector employs 250,000 people, amounting to 14.5% of the workforce.

The contribution of the retail sector to GDP is 10% per annum. It is interesting to note that 86% of retailers employ fewer than ten employees. In the period since the recession began, 47,000 jobs have been lost in the retail sector, which equates to a drop of 30% since 2008. In my home town of Carrick-on-Suir, 24% of retail units in the town centre are currently vacant. There is a similar situation in Clonmel, Cashel, Cahir and many other towns across the country. A number of factors are causing difficulties, the most obvious being the slowdown in the economy. Car parking in town centres is a problem, and shoppers are choosing to shop in shopping centres. The cities of Dublin, Cork and Limerick have 17,800 free car parking spaces available to shoppers. Shoppers in small towns in rural Ireland have remained faithful to town centre shops and businesses in small towns have fought back. For example, the local traders in my own town of Carrick-on-Suir have reached agreement with the town council to allow 15 minutes free car parking in the centre of the town in order to help trade. The local business association has organised "golden oldie" shopping days, among other initiatives. However, a national response to this problem is required, such as guidance from the Government on the issue of car parking in towns. Retailers should be enabled to issue tickets to shoppers to provide more shopping time.

Urban renewal in town centres needs to be considered. The original urban renewal scheme was introduced in 1986 and lasted until 2008. Strange to say, it was availed of through all the Celtic tiger years and abandoned in 2008, when it was needed most. A new scheme that takes into account the lessons learned from the old scheme must be established. The previous scheme concentrated too much on providing tax derogations rather than dealing with social issues, as was the case with the first renewal scheme. Run-down areas need to be improved and tax derogation must be linked to the provision of jobs. The question of upward-only rent review must be tackled, a topic which was debated in the House last week. I was accused of being absent for the debate, but I was paired that day. The business districts improvement scheme needs to be enhanced and supported at national level. It has been adopted by only two local authorities, Dublin and Dundalk, but there is great merit in the scheme, which can provide a clean and safe environment for shoppers.

I refer to another initiative in the response by retailers across the country. Pop-up shops have arrived on the scene, many of them in Dublin. I note there was a Glenisk yogurt company pop-up shop across the road at the corner of Molesworth Street for a couple of months. These shops have fantastic potential but they require planning permission in order for the entrepreneur to access finance from enterprise boards and from the Leader programme.

We need to give statutory authority to these initiatives.

There is also the matter of safety in town centres. There has been some great work in the provision of closed-circuit television, CCTV, in town centres, with €4 million invested to date. Nonetheless, many more towns need these systems. Despite our economic woes, many town councils have surplus budgets and run in the black; therefore, before the Government proceeds to abolish town councils after the elections in May next year, those authorities should be allowed to use some of that money to carry out improvements that are badly needed to kick-start retailing.

Development levies form another major issue. During the boom - between 2000 and 2006 - €2.1 billion in levies were collected, while in the last number of years the same method of collecting money has been, to say the least, unsuccessful. Currently, €750 million is owed to local authorities across the country; therefore, it is clear not only that new businesses cannot start because of development levies but also that those that have started are unable to pay them. What should we do? I suggest we give all new businesses, particularly in the retail sector, an exemption from development levies for two years, and if the business continues trading, payments can be phased in over five years. This will give a chance to new businesses to kick-start rural towns by helping to generate employment.

Rates are crippling retail outlets throughout the country and there must be some change in the current system, which is archaic. There should be a link between the rates and the turnover and profit of a business. There should be a requirement to maintain the front of vacant business premises at an acceptable level if there is to be a rates holiday when a premises is unoccupied. In small town centres in rural Ireland, vacant premises are becoming dishevelled and run down, lowering the atmosphere and ambience of town centres. The owners of certain businesses do not have to pay rates but I ask the Minister to ensure they keep the premises maintained.

The town councils with surplus cash should be allowed to use it to incentivise new retail business in the local authority areas between now and May next year. In other words, that provision should be made in the 2014 budget. I ask the Minister to set up a national task force on town centre retailing, amounting to a body representing all the various interest groups. It should only sit for 12 weeks but it should bring forward recommendations to be implemented by the Minister. If that alone is accomplished, the sector can be helped.

I second the motion and commend Senator Landy for taking the initiative to table it at an opportune time, the week before the budget. I know these are not necessarily financial matters being directly dealt with by the Minister, but there are budgetary implications in some regards. I am also grateful that the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has made herself available to the Seanad this week as she has always been one of the more positive, progressive and receptive of Ministers of State.

I have always found that any time we raise issues with her, we get feedback. She goes back to her Department with our suggestions and, therefore, they are not falling on deaf ears, which is important because we need the influence and support of Ministers to carry on our work in an effective fashion.

Senator Denis Landy has done a great deal of work and research preparing for this debate. The motion has not been tabled on a whim. He has put forward a structured set of suggestions and proposals. I second his worthy proposal to call on the Minister to initiate a task force following next week's budget that would sit in a short, sharp shock type of way to bring forward proposals that would have an immediate effect as we approach the winter, Christmas and spring to help to rejuvenate and support main street, Ireland, which is, unfortunately, on its knees.

I would like to be positive and constructive but family businesses and small retailers throughout the country are at the end of their tether and hanging on by their fingernails. They are often working without a wage out of pride and dignity and respect for a business that was perhaps passed on from one generation to the next. While the work the Government is doing on job creation is good and reaping dividends, particularly among multinationals through foreign direct investment, it cannot turn its back on town centres and the abject dereliction that is sweeping through main streets everywhere in the State. I refer to towns such as Mountmellick, Portlaoise, Portarlington, Abbeyleix, Durrow, Mountrath and Rathdowney in my community. I am certain there is a profound commitment to business and voluntary endeavour outside of business among people there.

Businesses in town centres are coming together and pooling their resources and ideas to put their best foot forward. Mountmellick Business Association was reorganised and revitalised only in the past fortnight under the chairmanship of a young man in his 20s, Mr. Tom Horan, and Ms Edel Watchorne. A colleague of mine, Lisa Delaney, is also actively involved. An organisation, Downtown Portlaoise, has launched an initiative to promote the town centre in Portlaoise. However, these organisations are up against multinationals and policies that have been in place in the past 20 and 30 years that have been biased in favour of multiples and multinationals. I recall when working as a journalist in Portlaoise in the 1980s the introduction of urban renewal schemes that designated fields on the outskirts of the town to the neglect of the town centre. Four of my uncles worked in Kelly's Foundry, whose emblem is on hay sheds the length and breadth of Ireland. When the foundry closed, it lay derelict in the middle of town. The then Government designated a field on the edge of town for development, which tore the entire heart out of the town. The town centre continues to struggle because it is at a severe disadvantage. The supermarket multiples received tax incentives, did not have to pay rates and were able to provide parking facilities that small businesses on the main street could not cope with.

It is up to us and the Government to rectify that imbalance. The Government will not generate rates from derelict sites or from businesses once the shutters are pulled down. We must stop the decline now. The Government parties have been engaged in a fire fighting exercise to try to put the country back on its feet, for which I commend them. Every Minister has worked hard in this regard, but we must make sure we do not lose more small family businesses. The Gathering was a huge success and tourism remains at the heart of Government policy on economic growth.

One will not get too many tourists into the country to visit Tesco, Lidl and Aldi. People do not come to see supermarkets. I welcome consumer choice and competition but not at the expense of small family businesses, boutiques, artisan butchers and bakers among others. There is an opportunity for us to help organisations that are on the ground that are ready and willing to take up the opportunity. If we needed any incentive to do so, the 9% VAT regime is an example in itself of how when Government came forward with an incentive, businesses matched it and created real jobs that took people off the dole. The shops, retailers and small businesses to which Senator Landy referred would all take on one more staff member each if we met them even half way in terms of free parking and affordable rates. That would take tens of thousands off social welfare in the morning and it would be cost effective and cost neutral. We call on the Minister of State to take this message from the Seanad to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to feed into the budgetary process and support the ideas we put forward.

I welcome the Minister of State. I compliment the Labour Party Senators who tabled the motion which is not only timely, it is overdue. To some extent we are not getting to grips with a difficulty that is so great and will get worse. If we think the economy is bad now, that the job situation is bad and that we have too much emigration, it is by looking at towns that we will realise where the real problem lies. When we debated county enterprise boards last week, a statistic was presented that 98.5% of all firms are small firms and they create 650,000 jobs. One finds such small firms in the main in small towns around the country.

Some years ago we argued that rural Ireland was the poor relation when it came to economic policies. It is not an exaggeration to say that we must closely examine towns because they now face some of the problems in a different way that rural areas faced in the past. We can point to specific reasons we find ourselves where we are. Logic does not form part of the equation. When one goes to a supermarket one sees small units closed due to rent increases. From an economic point of view one could ask what is the sense in having the units closed if that is where the problem lies. The same problem lies with small businesses in towns. The commercial rates paid by retailers account for 28% of the income of local authorities.

One of the reasons people cannot keep going is overheads. I refer to commercial rates, insurance, maintenance, hidden charges and paying staff. I can never forget my very good friend who was a small business person who worked diligently and set up a particular brand. He fell behind in his payments. One day he was visited by the Revenue Commissioners and when they left he took his own life. That particular person was the salt of the earth. There is something radically wrong with life when that happens.

I do not know whether people observed what was happening. I am not blaming the Office of the Revenue Commissioners; I am blaming no one. However, the set of circumstances I describe is being replicated weekly. People can no longer take the pressure. That is why it is important that this motion is before the House. It is pertinent to why we are here also. It is important that whatever we say today does not just disappear into the ether. What we are trying to do is to be helpful. None of us will have all the answers; it is as simple as that. The main point is that we all have experiences, and those experiences must be kept in mind.

Let me outline some of the reasons the towns are suffering, bearing in mind what is coming down the line. Even in this crisis, we need leadership teams in towns. People with particular expertise and interests need to work in a united way for the revitalisation of their towns. The only statutory voice available to the towns is that of the local councils, yet they are to be abolished. My home town, Cashel, which has a population of 3,000, has had a council - a legislature - since the 13th century, yet we are going to get rid of it. Where does that leave tourism? How does it affect representation when seeking industry? It makes no sense whatsoever. I am certain that when the town councils are abolished and we ask whether our having abolished them has saved money, we will conclude it has not. It will certainly have weakened the structure and leadership in the towns. It will certainly have taken away a combined responsible response to the problems we face.

The cost of parking in towns has got out of hand. One now needs €4, €5 or €6 to park. If one must return to the town twice in a day to do one's shopping, it is a problem. Something should be done for people who are returning.

There is a lot to be said for a major national campaign. I suggest a national market day, a single day to focus on the towns. It should involve both economics and culture in order that people will feel comfortable coming into the towns. It should be a matter of increasing the footfall in towns through theatre, culture, sport or otherwise. If we had a single focus nationally, it would be particularly important.

I would love to believe we might return to this subject in the very near future, as there are so many issues that need to be addressed. If, as part of our consultative process, we could invite to this Chamber, rather than a hidden room, a group of people to outline the issues confronting them and their considerable problems, it would be beneficial. If all people concerned throughout the country - not just those in towns - do not tackle the problem, it will become irredeemable.

I welcome the Minister of State. This is a very worthwhile debate. Without people, a town dies. Without footfall, business dies and everything that goes with it, including communities. It is most important to ensure that every town has a community, because people comprise communities. We have had many policy documents over the years seeking to encourage more sustainable urban development. Residential density guidelines were issued in 1999 and there is a national spatial strategy. The NESC housing report was issued in 2004, Sustainable Rural Housing was published in 2005, and Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communities was published in 2007. All of these reports expressed a commitment to promoting development and the renewal of towns, including small towns and villages.

Whatever about the commitment of various Governments, we have failed in that objective and need a renewed effort in this regard. During the boom years, the vast bulk of housing construction was in the form of suburban housing estates or one-off housing in the countryside. There are very few examples of new housing development at the edges of villages and in small towns. Good quality developments in town centres and over-shop developments were not commonplace. What we need are developments whose scale and layout fit well with the existing towns and villages and which present a high quality living environment to attract people back to small towns and villages, thus supporting local communities and businesses. We must also provide more support for public transport and reduce dependency on cars. Planning authorities have an obligation to make the centres of towns and villages attractive and affordable for people who wish to set up businesses.

The architect Paul Keogh argued that we have not seen many examples of sustainable development. He wrote in an article:

On the contrary, weak planning, suburban social values and an uncontrolled market during the boom years conspired to facilitate an overwhelming predominance of low-density greenfield development outside of - and often remote from - existing urban centres. With the exception of tax-driven apartments, social and affordable housing, few family homes have been built in towns and village centres and essential services, retailing and businesses have relocated to the outskirts. In short, the decline of the inhabited town is in freefall and rural Ireland is becoming overwhelmingly suburban.

That statement must be taken seriously. If we are to manage the projected growth in housing demand, we must review the suburban model and determine what action is required to ensure that we pull back from the sprawling development model and replace it with sustainable development around and within towns.

Local authorities can do much to ensure business development and sustainability. South Dublin County Council, of which I was a member until 2011, developed an action plan with some very good ideas therein. An analysis was carried out of vacant properties which also examined the relationship between zoning and planning applications. The aim was to examine each empty property with a view to maximising usage by local people, whether they be artists or other business people. Local authorities can play a vital role in this context.

I welcome some of the very innovative ideas that have been put forward to date, particularly relating to the cost of parking in town centres. The provision of free two hour parking is welcome, for example. The Minister of State will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that under the Road Traffic Act 1994 local authorities have the power to set parking charges. They can introduce by-laws for parking charges, as was done in south Dublin. We have seen the introduction of disc parking, differential rates for different parking zones and so forth. Local authorities can change by-laws in their own areas. Not every village or town wants the provision of two hours of free parking. It depends on the size of the village or town, the movement of cars and so forth. Equally, fully free parking could mean that some people would drive into the centre of towns and villages and then get the bus to work. Local authorities are best placed to decide what is appropriate for each location.

A key element of any business development strategy is ensuring access to credit for such businesses. We have bailed out the banks and must ensure they provide credit for viable businesses.

There are several options for commercial retail premises wishing to avail of urban renewal assistance under the auspices of the Revenue Commissioners, which includes 50% of expenditure on new construction. Regarding office accommodation in small urban centres, the Government has introduced eligibility for capital allowances.

The Government has already taken action to counteract the corrosive effects of the recession on towns. New development contribution guidelines were introduced earlier this year.

The Senator is way over time.

I have to say what the Government has done because I have been talking about what we should do.

The Senator should have said it already. She is way over time.

There will be reduced development contributions or waivers to support retailers. New guidelines in retailing planning are aimed at promoting the sector. I look forward to hearing the Minister of State’s plans for this area and hope restraint will be shown in commercial rents and rates.

I call Senator Mary Ann O’Brien.

On a point of order, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges recommended changing the order of speaking times on Private Members’ business and this was adopted by the House. Accordingly, the next slot should fall to a Government speaker. The Acting Chairman should continue with the order of speaking times before him. When I was in the Chair, I was bound by the rules.

I bow to the Senator’s superior knowledge. We will stay with Government speakers.

My apologies to Senator Mary Ann O’Brien, but I am sure she will not mind.

This motion is close to my heart, if one can forgive the pun.

The Senator with two hearts.

I thank Senator Denis Landy for introducing it. From today’s report on the number of unoccupied commercial premises across the country, I noted County Donegal has one of the highest rates of vacancy of commercial premises. The national average is 12%, while Letterkenny’s rate is 21%. Will the Minister of State clarify whether this rate is based on floor space or per unit? I have two insurance offices in Donegal, one in Raphoe and one in Letterkenny, for the past 25 years. I have noticed the downturn in small towns and large urban centres across the country in this time.

As a member of Letterkenny Town Council for 17 years, I recall that this was one of the issues that exercised most town councillors. How does one revitalise a main street that is dying on its feet? This is not an issue that is peculiar to Letterkenny, Mountmellick or Tralee. It is happening in nearly every town, with the main streets ebbing away. Some measures to tackle this include the use of a more creative way to strike rates. It has to be remembered that in the past one had to have a physical property to run a business. If one availed of services provided by the local authority, one had to pay rates. Now, a person can run a business from his or her kitchen with a laptop or from a car with a mobile phone. The rates system is based on the shop on the main street, which is being overtaken by the online retailer. We will have to examine how the rates system is used. It must be more equalised.

Last week I met a businessman who reminded me that the Government had promised to examine the issue of upward-only rent reviews. He understood how we were restrained from dealing with it, but he said he was being screwed - that was the word he used - by his landlord.

This man has been in business for 35 years and is a good businessman but these issues are holding him back. Other retailers in Donegal have gone out of business. They were good business people, but their banks had told them they should use the profits in their bank accounts to buy four properties in Manchester, four properties in Portugal and six properties in Cork. As they were doing well, those business people took that advice on board. Now these businesses have failed not because they were not viable but because of commercial debt. Sadly, many of the banks here were lending money not to invest in Ireland but in Europe and beyond. The money went out of the country and disappeared. We must give such people a break.

There is no point in saying money is available to small businesses. While that is very welcome, I speak to small business people every day socially or as Seanad spokesperson on jobs and enterprise, and many say that even if the banks offered them money they would not take it because they do not know what the future holds and how they would service the debt. They may also have to go through many hoops to get that money. We must devise a system that brings the high street back to viability.

There is a role for agencies such as An Post to do this. An Post opened a second post office in Letterkenny recently after three to five years of grappling with it. I got a petition going because there was a queue outside the post office. This destroyed people's mornings because they were standing in the rain. It was not helping local businesses because people were queueing past a number of shops and people could not get in. It took An Post three or four years to realise what every dog in the street and every person knew, namely, that there was a need to open a second post office in Letterkenny. An Post has done it and it has been successful. It has also helped the area where the second post office opened. The landlord there says the chemist and butcher are doing better and there is another shop opening. State agencies have a role to play, but have been reluctant to engage with the chambers of commerce and ordinary business people.

I know from personal experience the difficulties of small businesses. We must make a plan that gives people hope and ensure that small businesses starting up are not laden down with massive rents or overheads, and get them started again. The family business is the last to give up. The husband and wife with a family will fight to the last to save their business, and will be the last people in the business if it fails. They will be there and do everything to keep it going and we must support them.

I thank the Minister of State for coming here to listen to us. Earlier, Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú mentioned 98.5% of our businesses were small businesses with 650,000 people employed by them. Surely that is enough to focus our minds. When America gets a cold, we usually get the flu. All of us have been lucky enough to travel and look at the United States for years. The Minister of State has seen what the advent of the wonderful business, Walmart, has done to the United States. It is very hard to go into any town in the United States and not notice that the town centre no longer exists. I have visited Dallas and downtown Dallas no longer exists. It is just a sprawl of little shopping malls with no soul or life.

I am trying to avoid repeating what other Senators have said today and to come up with some ideas. Senator Feargal Quinn was involved with one idea and I wonder if we should ask LinkedFinance to come to the Oireachtas audio-visual room and speak to as many Senators and Deputies as we can get. LinkedFinance is a crowd-funding initiative. At the second Global Irish Economic Forum, former US President Bill Clinton was the first person I ever heard make a very passionate speech on crowd funding and he asked the Taoiseach to ask us all to examine crowd funding.

We can speak all day about the ruination of towns and speak about free parking. Perhaps as a knee-jerk reaction we should consider having parking charges at the big centres outside towns and free parking inside towns. I listened to Senator Cáit Keane state every town is different. I spend much time in the medieval city of Kilkenny. It has just managed to retain its vitality and everybody wants to go there. Thomastown is a small village not far from Kilkenny and has managed to retain much of its vitality, although a few multiples have appeared on the outside. We must consider what lessons we can learn from this.

To return to crowd funding, LinkedFinance, the crowd-funding initiative established by Senator Feargal Quinn, Kingsley Aikins and Bobby Kerr, has created 50 jobs and hopes to fund 200 small businesses by the end of the year. It has funded a butcher, a baker and a candlestick maker. How cute this sounds, but it is the truth. The butcher was funded locally by 400 fans and customers. A small amount of money went in, but all of the people concerned feel they have a part of the business. The butcher has their e-mail addresses and is able to social network with them and send them special offers. They feel they are part of the business.

A total of €1 million has been raised by the crowd-funding company. A similar crowd-funding company in England which has a population of 60 million people has raised £100 million for small businesses which are owned by local people. Instead of rushing into the large multiple which has wonderful offers and great powers of advertising, if one feels one is part of the butcher or local community, or one has sponsored a business, of course, one will take the time to go there. I will contact LinkedFinance to find out more about it and how we can bring this expertise to counties Donegal, Tipperary, Kildare, Kilkenny and other areas.

In Killarney a large international multiple has established a beautiful petrol station beside its big store and offered lower prices. As we are all in desperate times, people fill their cars at this new petrol station. All of the other petrol stations in lovely Killarney are now closed. We cannot allow this to happen. There is free trade - I am not sure how we can stop it - but this is not the way to go. I will balance this with something positive. A German multiple in a County Cork town has successfully sought planning permission to build a scout hall in the town and 120 scouts are over the moon and delighted. It is not always the case that the big guy is bad. We should examine linking local authorities with the big boys, supporting small businesses with crowd funding and linking with local authorities to sort out the issue of parking. Why would one not go to the lovely big centre outside town where one can park one's car and walk across the free car park to do one's shopping? I will admit one's soul would not be nourished. It is hard to find parking in town and if one has no change, it is all a disaster. One then gets a ticket and feels completely fed up. We must stop this.

Senator must stop talking. Senator loves small business. Senator feels the centre of town is the life and soul of this small country of ours. The United States showed us the wrong way; then it happened in England and now it is happening to us. Let us examine the issues of crowd funding and car parking, but more than this, let us get all of our colleagues together to help move forward and use initiative.

I thank Senator Denis Landy and his Labour Party colleagues for giving us the opportunity to have this debate. I have heard many bright ideas which I will certainly consider with my colleagues in government.

As I will be staying for the rest of the debate, I look forward to others that will be brought forward.

We are all very much aware of the negative effect of money being sucked out of the economy because of the recession, whether it be through unemployment, emigration, lower incomes or otherwise. This has had a negative impact right across our society but particularly so in the decline of business activity in our city centres, rural towns and villages. Many shops and businesses, both new and even some which have been in operation for decades or generations, have not been able to survive the downturn in economic activity, resulting in increasing numbers of shop closures and vacant units in town centres.

I know this is a source of great concern for all of us in our local areas and across the country. The retail sector, combined with the wholesale sector, plays a very important part in the domestic economy, representing over 15% of the workforce. However, over 48,000 jobs were lost in the retail and wholesale sectors in the period from the first quarter of 2008 to the first quarter of 2012 and while the volume of retail sales has shown some marginal increases in recent quarters, consumer confidence remains low. Senator Jimmy Harte has made the point that people are afraid to spend and afraid to borrow. Certainly, the level of consumer confidence is a real concern and many retail outlets remain vulnerable. In addition to the impact of the recession, upward-only rents, parking charges, commercial rates, rising energy costs and online trading, an issue referred to by some Senators, are all factors which are threatening the viability of small and medium-sized businesses in the retail sector and threatening the fabric of urban centres.

The Private Members' motion put before us by the Labour Party Senators deals with an important issue and clearly reflects the difficult circumstances faced by retail outlets and small and medium-sized businesses in towns throughout the country. There is no one simple solution or panacea to the situation faced. An integrated cross-sectoral approach is required, but this must also be combined with proactive action by the retail sector and individual businesses within it. The vitality and viability of town centres are central to our policy in government. We recognise the vital role towns play in the social, cultural and economic life of communities around Ireland. We have all seen the effects of urban sprawl and poorly planned out-of-town retail developments, as referred to by Senators Mary Ann O'Brien and John Whelan. Families all over Ireland are paying for these mistakes through more expensive infrastructure, longer journeys and congestion. Vibrant town centres also contribute to social inclusion and are better suited to multipurpose trips. They provide for greater diversity of uses and create more interesting spaces where people can interact and do business.

We have done a lot within my area of responsibility. As I said, I will certainly consider the suggestions made both in the motion and the contributions I have heard. However, I would like to outline some of the things we have done. New development contribution guidelines were introduced earlier this year directing planning authorities to put in place reduced development contributions or waivers to support town centre development. I am encouraging local authorities to do this because it is a practical measure we can take to encourage development in town centres. New guidelines on retail planning are aimed at promoting and supporting the vitality and viability of city and town centres, ensuring the planning system plays a key role in ensuring competitiveness in the retail sector and advancing choice for the consumer. In retaining the previous caps on store size in less populated and smaller towns, the retail planning guidelines strike the right balance by ensuring local monopolies are not created in smaller locations, which would be detrimental to competition.

Local authorities have been asked to exercise restraint or, where possible, reduce commercial rates and local charges to assist local businesses in the current economic climate. The response to this request has been positive, with, for example, 87 out of 88 rating authorities either reducing their annual rateable valuation or keeping it at the same level as in 2012. This follows similar trends in commercial local authority rates charges in both 2010 and 2011.

Retail outlets can also help themselves to survive the current difficulties by coming together and adopting innovative proactive initiatives. In this regard, there is scope for the business community to utilise the business improvement districts scheme, BIDS, which is mentioned in the motion and was also mentioned by Senator Denis Landy, to a greater extent than has been the case up to now.

A fundamental feature of BID schemes which are governed by legislation sponsored by my Department is that it is the local business community, rather than central or local government, which is the sponsoring party for such schemes with the funds collected from local businesses being used to pay for the services and improvements to be carried out in the local area.

In terms of Government action other than by my Department in providing assistance for retail businesses, a number of measures have been introduced since 2011, including the following: the introduction of the 9% rate of VAT on certain goods and services; the halving of the lower rate of employers' PRSI; the introduction of the micro-enterprise loan scheme and the credit guarantee scheme, both schemes have had take-up from the retail sector; and the extension of the seed capital and employment and investment incentive scheme to the retail sector.

Recognising the importance of the retail sector to the economy, the Action Plan for Jobs 2013 contains a number of specific measures aimed at supporting the sector. These include: an initiative to increase the number of small businesses trading online; an initiative to streamline business licence application procedures; and the establishment of an interdepartmental group to identify possible further actions that could be taken to support the maintenance and creation of jobs in the sector. This interdepartmental group has already been established and is mandated to submit a report encompassing various recommendations and actions before the end of the year. Perhaps the idea of the task force as suggested by Senators Denis Landy and John Whelan could be looked at in conjunction with that group.

In addition, the Government has strengthened the Credit Review Office to deal with problems in getting access to finance and has begun the process of integrating business supports into a stronger local enterprise office network to support micro and small businesses. The introduction of the JobsPlus scheme from the beginning of July should also be of benefit to employers in the retail sector. While some of the measures proposed in the motion are already being implemented to a certain degree at local level - for example, pop-up shops are promoted in some local authority areas and councils contributing to the painting and regeneration of shop front facades to improve the appearance of town centres - it is not possible to properly assess the contribution which some of the other measures proposed would make to addressing the problems faced without subjecting them to detailed examination and cost-benefit analysis. Clearly some of them are the responsibility of the Department of Finance. We can examine them into the future but we did not have time to do all of that work before addressing the motion.

The introduction of a first hour free parking scheme might have negative revenue consequences for local authorities who would have to find the money for services elsewhere in an already constrained council funding environment. I am aware that a number of councils have used the initiative in respect of parking. However, within the commitments given in the programme for Government, both the Government and I are supportive of further consideration being given to some of the proposals in the motion before the House.

Members can also be assured the Government and I are fully supportive of the need for local authorities, within the context of their own economic and development planning processes and the Action Plan for Jobs, to actively promote measures to stimulate and support local investment and associated job protection and creation. Relevant Departments and national agencies also have a role in ensuring that the necessary legislative, policy and financial supports are available to local authorities in this regard.

My Department in its ongoing interaction with local authorities in the context of development planning and the enhanced role envisaged for them under the programme for local government reform, Putting People First, will continue to be as supportive as possible of the development of innovative approaches to economic stimulation and associated job creation in local communities.

There is one last thing that was not included in the motion but might greatly add to the overall vitality of towns. I refer to the quest to see more people returning to live in towns either living over the shop or in buildings that no longer have a commercial use. There is a great wealth of untapped uses in our towns that we, in central and local government, need to explore further. For example, vacant dwellings could be used by artists and is an initiative that has worked well in my local authority, in Galway and some other areas.

I recognise in the motion the appreciation for the Irish town as the heart of a wider community. There is much to celebrate in the built form, the architecture, the civic life and the history that breathes life into our urban centres and makes them more than just centres of commerce. However, commerce is the lifeblood that makes the urban heart beat. I realise that the economic difficulty of recent years has placed a strain on businesses in urban centres. While many initiatives and measures have been introduced I assure the Senators that we will continue to explore all options for further action, including the proposals outlined in the motion. I am determined that we will do all that we can to ensure that our towns are able to function to their full potential in order that they can be centres of our social, cultural and economic life. I look forward to the rest of the debate.

I welcome the Minister of State and thank her for attending. All of us here, on both sides of the Chamber, are very pleased that the people voted "No" to the abolition of the Seanad.

Fianna Fáil supports the excellent motion in the names of Senators Denis Landy and John Whelan which is at the core of many of our problems. I thank them for tabling the motion. Deputy Barry Cowen produced a Fianna Fáil policy paper on the revitalisation of Irish towns. He was assisted in this work by a great young man, a town planner, who works in the Fianna Fáil research office, Mr. Kevin Dillon, who understands that planning issues are at the core of this subject.

I have taken an initiative on retailing in Ireland. The sector employs approximately 250,000 people. As the Minister of State has said, more than 40,000 people have already lost their jobs in the retail sector. Each job lost in the region leads to suffering by the families and children. I am organising a conference entitled Revitalising Retailing in Dundrum Town Centre at 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12 December 2013. It is open to all retailers in the city and around the country. This event will be co-hosted by Mr. Don Nugent, director of Dundrum Town Centre. I disagree with Senator John Whelan who spoke in a derogatory way about the large multiples because they employ people.

How many more of them-----

I feel passionately the need to maintain the town centres and bring them back to life and in the city to maintain neighbourhood centres. That there should be houses everywhere is boring. For example, in Mount Merrion in south Dublin a lovely range of small shops are available to the people. At my conference, independent shopkeepers will be invited to speak as well as individuals from larger stores. Retailers will talk to retailers and people who may wish to start up in the business. The challenge to retailing which will not go away is the relentless change in technology, including online shopping and every aspect of technology is introduced into retailing. It is a very serious issue for the retail industry.

I am saddened at the closure of many small shops around the country due to a lack of consumer spending, high rates and high rents. In Britain, there have been a number of reports on the whole issue. It is facing up to the problem and doing something about it and is more advanced than us. We have allowed the problem of dying town centres to continue. It is beyond belief that nothing has been done about it. In her contribution, the Minister of State mentioned the quest to see more people living over the shop. There is a need to look at the changing facilities available in the town centres.

The town centres must innovate.

It is very wrong of the Government to introduce legislation to abolish the town councils. A total of 300 town councillors lost their jobs. The town councils are being abolished when we need them more than ever. If the abolition of town councils was put to the people, does the Minister believe all the people who live in the towns around Ireland would say "Yes"? They would not.

We will have municipal districts instead.

That does not sound very convincing and 300 town councillors are effectively losing their jobs.

We must repopulate the high streets, town centres and neighbourhood centres as community hubs, with more housing, education, arts, entertainment, business office space, health and leisure, and some shops. I am on the same wavelength as my two colleagues and totally support them, but I see the other side also because the large multiples provide jobs. Tesco, alone, employs approximately 15,000 people.

Every town council or local authority should have a plan in place every five years for the development of the town centre, and each year it should refer to that plan and see if it is working. It should assess the plan and how it is proceeding. There is a deluge of life away from the towns, such as those mentioned by Senator John Whelan.

The Acting Chairman went over time too when she contributed to the debate, and she did not listen when the Chair tried to stop her.

As I got 30 seconds, I will give the Senator another 30.

We need to get people back into housing in the town centre. The Government must take strong action in that regard.

There is the issue of change of use. Some things appear to be carved in stone. We should enable the change of use process to be used to convert entire sub-high streets to residential or other uses within the agreed high street plan and to relocate the successful independent retailers into the main commercial centres.

I formally congratulate the Senators and thank the Minister of State for gracing the Seanad with her presence, as she has done so frequently in the past. We are delighted to have her. Apparently, no Minister wanted to come to the House this week. The Minister of State is a politician of conviction.

The Senator has underestimated her attractiveness. I am sure many Ministers were willing to come here.

I, too, welcome the Minister of State and compliment her on what she said. I also compliment my two colleagues, Senators Denis Landy and John Whelan. This subject has been close to my heart for years and I agree with everything they and many other Senators said on the matter. I acknowledge the good work Senator Mary Ann O'Brien has done on this subject in the past.

It is good to know that Members on both sides of the House are all agreed on this. However, the shocking situation, as outlined by Senator Denis Landy, is that we have seen the demise of many town centres throughout the country. Senator Denis Landy referred to Carrick-on-Suir, Cashel and Cahir; Senator John Whelan spoke about Portlaoise, Mountmellick and Durrow, while Senator Jimmy Harte talked about Letterkenny and other towns. Regardless of the county, town centres were hit very badly everywhere. I will not talk about my own county, but Kerry was equally badly hit.

Senator Mary White praised the large multiples and recognised that they might have done some good. I would not dare to do that. Senator Denis Landy spoke about the 47,000 jobs that have been lost in small businesses in town centres throughout the country since the recession started. There is no way that the multiples, in the number they employ, made up for the 47,000 jobs that were lost. The vitality and vibrancy of town centres are a core part of policy, but it is a pity it was not there when county managers and officials were riding roughshod over towns and allowed the construction of out-of-town centres. They contributed in many instances to the demolition of town centres. Some councillors, perhaps in all the parties but principally in the party opposite, were often bullies in the way they got in league with managers to allow a developer to do whatever he wished. Some of those developers would have been better off if they had been curbed, because they are in the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, today. They have wreaked havoc on town centres all over the country.

I welcome the free car parking initiative introduced by some authorities in some large towns. However, we must provide a level playing pitch in respect of in-town and out-of-town parking. I do not have the answer and realise the matter is being considered in the Department. The Minister spoke about the loss to some local authorities in town centres, but perhaps they could impose a charge for the damage that grinding wheels delivering to these out-of-town centres do to the roads in and out of them. Some mechanism must be found to level that playing pitch.

Senator Denis Landy also mentioned the urban renewal scheme. The last one, in fairness, did some good. It dealt with urban degeneration in the hearts of towns. Okay, it involved tax breaks and so forth but it was taken up and there are some lovely places. Sadly, however, many of the shop units that were developed in the town centres are vacant today. Perhaps it is time to consider a new type of scheme. As the Senator said, it need not be all about tax relief, although it might be impossible to have one without some type of tax break. Perhaps there could be a rates moratorium for new businesses in small towns, as mentioned by the Senator, or rates could be linked to turnover and profitability. I agree with him that where town councils have the cash they can make improvements before they are, and if they are, absorbed into county councils. Personally, I had hoped that the councils of towns with populations above 10,000 would survive. Initially, I believed that would happen, but it has evolved since. As we have not yet seen that legislation, we will await it.

CCTV in town centres has been good and we need more of it. I am on a policing board in my home town and we could do with more such initiatives to curb some of the things that happen late at night at weekends, unfortunately. I welcome what Senator Denis Landy has proposed with regard to a national task force for town centres. The Minister of State is prepared to consider it further within the Department.

I do not wish to labour the point, but we must continue to monitor this issue. I hope we and the Minister of State can do more about it. However, I very much welcome the fact that national policy now has regard primarily to the vitality and vibrancy of town centres. If managers, officials and councillors had that in mind in the past, many of our towns would not now be in the current sad mess.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, and thank her for debating this motion on behalf of the Government. It involves a number of areas of responsibility and, as the Minister of State said, local authorities bear some of the responsibility for some of the measures being proposed. I commend my colleagues, Senators Denis Landy and John Whelan, for proposing the motion and apologise for being unable to stay in the House for all of the debate.

This is a very important motion. The issue of urban renewal is close to my heart given that I live in Dublin's south inner city. It is something that concerns all of us, whether we live in cities or small or large towns. There is a serious concern about the need for urban renewal. Other colleagues have spoken eloquently about the problems in city and town centres, including vacant properties and the closure of retail outlets. The motion seeks to be constructive. It refers to some of the positive initiatives that have been taken and asks the Department to support those in any way it can. I am conscious that other authorities and Departments bear some responsibility. Obviously, tax incentives are a matter for the Department of Finance.

To speak constructively on some of the matters that have been proposed, Senator Denis Landy calls for a national task force. The Minister of State is supportive of that idea. She is correct to point out that there is a need for a cross-sectoral approach to examining something as broad as urban renewal.

An integrated cross-sectoral approach is required, in combination with proactive action by the retail sector and individual businesses. It is important to note the initiatives being taken. The motion mentions business improvement districts and the purple flag initiative - which we spoke about during a prior motion in this House on the subject - whereby town and city centre districts get together to seek the equivalent of a blue flag for beaches to show their district is a safe one, where people can feel safe at night, safe entertainment is offered, crime prevention initiatives are in place and people are being attracted there.

In Dublin and around the country there have been initiatives such as the Open House event started by the Architecture Foundation, a private body. This has been embraced and has spread to other cities. There was a very successful hosting last weekend. I went to some of the events and have supported it every year. It has been a marvellous way of bringing families into city and town centres. Similarly, culture night, another really successful initiative, is one we might seek to expand beyond a single night a year. Many European cities have a "white night" once a month when museums and art galleries stay open late into the evening, the idea being to bring families into the city and town centres, which offers a boost for cafes, bars and all sorts of outlets apart from the cultural. This also opens up city and town spaces, making them more safe. From the criminological view point, such action has a hugely beneficial impact on crime reduction rates in urban centres.

The issue of pop-up shops and outlets was raised in the motion. Perhaps we should have included restaurants and cafes. A recent very good example of collaboration between Dublin City Council and a private group was the pop-up Granby Park on Dominic Street, a brilliant initiative which transformed a vast empty space that had been derelict and was a magnet for anti-social behaviour. Through the voluntary work of a group of people in collaboration with Dublin City Council, it was transformed into a great space where lots of people visited, there were music events, speeches, political debates and so on. Any such initiatives deserve support at any level from both local and national government.

I was delighted to hear mention of the living-over-the-shop scheme and usage of buildings that have no further commercial use for other purposes. Other colleagues will have knowledge of other councils. Dublin City Council has been very good at doing this although perhaps it should be a little more proactive in encouraging people to live in the city centre. The living-over-the-shop scheme was heralded, rightly, as being a very important and positive scheme but it is quite hard to get information on it and it does not seem to have been rolled out as it should have been at this stage. There is a need for a more proactive approach to the use of vacant sites and their development, in particular into residential spaces that allow people to move into the city centre and make it more vibrant. Some streets in Dublin city centre where this has been working well include Capel Street and Francis Street which offer good examples of where living over the shop has worked and has made the streets into safer and more attractive spaces. We need to see that scheme spreading to town centres throughout the country, making it more attractive for people to live in the centres.

I commend my colleagues for introducing this motion. It is an important initiative on the part of the Labour Party Seanad group. An important part of our work is to try to bring forward opportunities for people to debate ideas of urban renewal, support for SMEs and businesses that are facing difficulties in the current economic climate. We are trying to ensure that the ideas put forward in the Seanad will be heard. I thank the Minister of State for attending and listening to what we have to say about bringing those ideas to the Government.

I call Senator John Crown. We have not heard from any Independent Senator.

Am I to share time?

The list has not been followed.

I have been taking advice. No Independent Senator has yet contributed.

If I speak, will Senator Thomas Byrne lose his opportunity? I will share if he wishes.

I will take my turn. It is fine.

I made the point once that I was the first person in my family to go to university, but if I had gone into the retail trade I would not have been the first, second or third to do so, perhaps the fourth or fifth, and what is more I might have done so in a small town. My father owned a shop in Brooklyn, New York. Both my grandparents, my father for a while, my aunt and my cousins all ran small businesses in smaller towns in Ireland. I have a certain feeling for the current sadness and tragedy surrounding the threatened demise of the sector.

I ask Senators not to think me judgmental, but if we are to spend our time today productively, not just singing hymns to Mom and apple pie about what we would like to see happening, we should provide some specifics. I would like to throw my strong support behind the argument that the Government should adopt Senator Feargal Quinn's upward-only rent review Bill and try to push it through remaining Stages in both Houses. If there are problems which need to be overcome in terms of constitutionality we should deal with them and not merely reject the Bill.

I have a couple of somewhat radical suggestions, one of which I have made before. One of the problems businesses face does not concern attracting people back into town centres. Many businesses are marginal because they are groaning under a colossal weight of debt incurred in the easy money days of the Celtic tiger. This is not necessarily because the people who borrowed the money were irresponsible but rather they were told the rules had been changed and it was okay to take a bigger loan than they would have been given beforehand. There was no longer the belief a person could borrow only a certain percentage of income. It was thought to be easier to take large amounts because the property value a person held would always go up. People were professionally advised to do this by those who should have known better and often, through limited fault of their own, they found themselves facing unsustainable levels of debt that might make their businesses go under.

That kind of desperate situation needs novel solutions. I have made the point before and will continue to do so whenever I get a captive Minister. There is €100 billion of Irish wealth tied up in private pension funds, €90 billion of which is outside the country and cannot be accessed by people when they need it, at a time when it might keep their business afloat or their house in their possession. I have made the point before - Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor has made a similar suggestion in the other House - that when businesses are genuinely in trouble and there is a pot of money available, the discretion should rest with the pension investor to apply to get premature access to his or her pension to pay whatever tax penalty is necessary and get money which might keep the business afloat.

I have also suggested an idea I believe to be particularly relevant in this area. The Government should consider introducing some kind of pilot scheme to take people off social welfare and out of unemployment by redeploying the money that would be paid to them and pay it to a business to employ them, mandating that business to top up the amount of income involved to a reasonable living wage. This would mean the person who is currently getting a subsistence living on unemployment payments would get a bigger family income and would return some money to the Exchequer by way of tax. In addition, the businesses would have an opportunity to restore some competitive advantage by having some percentage of their workforce effectively being partially subsidised by the Government. It is a win-win. The only constituency that would not like it are our masters in Europe. Given that we have so many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of unemployed lawyers in the country, I do not believe we would have any difficulty ganging them up in the European courts for five or ten years until the recession is over and we can tackle the problem of any fines we might accrue.

We already have JobBridge.

This is more ambitious than JobBridge. It is to redeploy the money already paid out as unemployment assistance directly to businesses to encourage them to bring people up.

The JobsPlus scheme is somewhat similar.

I throw the following idea out first in this Chamber. As part of a broader initiative aimed not only at rejuvenating the retail sector but also looking to health issues, could we consider having a novel approach to smoking and the selling of cigarettes by offering preferential rates of VAT and tax advantages to shops, pubs, off-licences and businesses to declare themselves to be ethical businesses that will not sell tobacco? People would be incentivised to do this by being given preferential rates of tax.

I call Senator Catherine Noone.

I have a point to make before Senator Catherine Noone commences. The Acting Chairman skipped an Opposition slot earlier when she called a Labour Party Member to follow a Fine Gael speaker. I do not understand why the rules are suddenly being strictly applied when I am offering to speak.

When the Senator walked in his name was not in front of me. I called the speaker who was already seated and ready to speak.

It seems there are different rules for the Opposition. I hope this is not a return to the Fine Gael arrogance that was punctured at the weekend.

The Senator will have a chance to speak.

The Acting Chairman went from one Government speaker to another Government speaker.

I had already called Senator Catherine Noone, after which I will Senator David Cullinane and then Senator Thomas Byrne. We have already had two speakers from Fianna Fáil, and there will be plenty of time for Senator Thomas Byrne to speak.

The Acting Chairman has not given an adequate explanation as to why a Government speaker was allowed to follow another Government speaker.

I had only two Fianna Fáil speakers on the list. I saw Senator Thomas Byrne walking in, but I called the speaker who was already seated and waiting to speak.

This is not the type of reformed Seanad we on this side of the House have in mind.

I have called Senator Catherine Noone.

I might be finished already if I had been allowed to speak in the first place.

There is no denying that small and medium-sized towns have taken a full-body hit, especially in the past five years, as other speakers have outlined in detail. Decisive action must be taken, and I hope it will be. I commend the two Senators who have spearheaded this issue, which I have done some work on in recent weeks. Many town centres - once the heart and soul of Irish communities - are continuing to slide rapidly into decline. That is well documented and beyond debate. The location of branches of large supermarket chains on the fringes of almost every town, boasting convenient free parking, have drawn large numbers away from town centres. My home town of Claremorris is a good example of this, with people from the hinterland and from other towns coming to shop in the large multinational outlet on the outskirts. Even the layout of the facility's car park serves to discourage people from going into Claremorris itself. The requirement to turn left or right, as appropriate, when negotiating the car park, means most people leave without going anywhere near the town centre. That facility is essentially sucking the life out of the place.

I have referred on previous occasions to the system introduced in the North, and referred to colloquially as the multinational tax, whereby larger retailers pay more in terms of rates and so on. It is a rather complex process, but I have asked the Minister for Finance to give it serious consideration. It seems to be working very well north of the Border. An ever decreasing level of footfall is leaving many indigenous businesses desperately struggling to survive. We urgently need to revitalise town centres and make them more attractive places in which to socialise. As Senator Ivana Bacik and the Minister of State both observed, they must become places where people actually live. The planning system was at fault to a large degree for the problems in this regard. Dublin city is a prime example of a location in which large numbers of apartment blocks in which families could not possibly live were thrown up. The reality is that people simply will not choose to live in a city or town centre if they cannot access appropriate accommodation. There is work for the Government to do in encouraging and facilitating people in doing so.

Another incentive that might help to revitalise town centres would be to give mayors more responsibility and a greater incentive to make towns vibrant places in which festivals take place, markets are held and so on. Such initiatives help to bring people back into the towns. The town centre should be a place where people want to go regularly to meet other people, do business and engage in social activities, even if they are not necessarily shopping there first. In France, mayors are given the responsibility of encouraging that type of activity. In fact, it is fundamentally a matter for local government. If mayors were elected on the basis that they had to deliver targets in terms of increasing footfall in town centres and the amount of business transacted there, it might lead to a larger movement of people into smaller towns.

We should aspire to progressive measures when it comes to parking. Other speakers referred to the possibility of free parking provision at peak times, which would make a crucial difference. Ideally the first hour would be free of charge, but I take on board the Minister of State's point regarding differences between towns and the balancing act that is required. However, we must look to simple innovative ideas such as these if we are to get towns moving. In New Zealand, for example, various initiatives are taking the stress and cost out of parking by making it more available and more enticing for shoppers. One such measure is a coupon system which offers free parking spaces close to town centres for the first two hours and free spaces in more strategic locations, such as outside the post office, for 15 minutes. Another possibility would be to charge adjusted rates in car parks belonging to large supermarkets such as Aldi, Lidl and Tesco, with the additional revenue going back to the local authority to assist in town centre rejuvenation. I accept this might not be as straightforward as it seems, given that most of these facilities are located on private property, but it is something that should be considered.

The reopening and re-letting of derelict properties in town centres should also be encouraged. There is scope to adopt programmes to promote town centres, main street revamps and regeneration of shop facades and signage. Priority should be given to tackling anti-social behaviour in small towns, which will make them more attractive as places in which to spend time and to live. Initiatives such as local-authority-funded family entertainment in town centres on Saturdays would also help to increase footfall and thus encourage shopping. Again, there could be a role for mayors in this regard, as is the case in France. Rates and rents which suffocate small businesses in towns throughout Ireland must also be tackled. Local authorities are slowly coming to terms with that situation.

It is high time we generated new ideas and considered adopting those that are working abroad. That is essential if we are to breathe life back into our town centres. I thank the Labour Party Senators for raising this issue and the Minister of State for taking the debate.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, back to the Chamber. I look forward to seeing her here on many occasions in the future. I commend the Labour Party Senators for the motion. Opposition Members often table amendments to motions from the Government side, but this particular proposal is worthy of standing on its own and offers scope for a comprehensive discussion.

It so happens that this particular issue was raised at today's meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, where representatives of RGDATA offered suggestions as to how the committee might support retailers. We all accept that if we hope to address the problems facing our town and city centres, we must have a change of policy which serves to lift the domestic economy, put more money in people's pockets and get them spending again. That would certainly help retailers in towns and cities. The sooner we are all part of that solution the better.

We in Sinn Féin are, like others, concerned about the decline of town centres. I did a series of consultations across the south east - in Carlow, Wexford, south Tipperary, Waterford and Kilkenny - in preparation for a report on economic development which was published by the committee some weeks ago. As part of that consultation process I met a range of groups, including retailers and chambers of commerce. It was interesting to observe how different local authorities are dealing with the decline in towns and cities in different ways, including through some very innovative initiatives. Carlow County Council, for example, has a pop-up programme whereby it engages with the owners of vacant properties and seeks to encourage people with new business ideas to use the properties for a couple of months. If that cannot be done, signs are placed in the windows to brighten them up, which looks better than a row of empty shops.

There are innovative proposals being examined by local authorities across the State. If we are serious about urban renewal and the development of town and city centres from a retail perspective, we must acknowledge planning failures in recent times. This is particularly true of out-of-town shopping centres which have had a big impact. In Waterford we are fortunate that the local authority resisted pressure from developers. The market went crazy during the Celtic tiger years, when we had any amount of out-of-town shopping centres. People looked to build projects that are now white elephants. They had an impact on town and city centres. We must get back to the regional retail planning guidelines and stick to the primacy of town and city centres, particularly for convenience goods. In the case of bulky goods, an argument can be made for having retail warehousing and out-of-town shopping centres. Where we can, we should keep retail busineses in town and city centres. Sensibly and proportionately, we could then look at out-of-town shopping centres. We must accept that, in some areas, the position is out of kilter and based on the craziness of the market at the time rather than the reality. One of the other issues that came up in consultation in the preparation of the report was that of upward only rent reviews. I linked the matters because we were examining economic development in the preparation of that report, but retailers wanted to talk about the issues that affected them. Last week the Seanad progressed a Bill from Senator Feargal Quinn on the issue. My party has tabled a Bill in the Dáil, but it has not yet had time to discuss it. It is an important issue to which we must face up. We must stop hiding behind the Attorney General. All of Sinn Féin's legal evidence tells us that we can do something on this issue. The Government must wake up to it because it affects many retailers.

On the afternoon we were having the debate on the Bill a chain of shoe shops went into examinership because of an upward only rent review. The North is often criticised in this House, but the Northern Ireland Assembly introduced a Tesco tax. It made rates much fairer and put the burden on multinationals, thereby taking it away from the SME sector. It also acts as a deterrent to out-of-town shopping centres. We should look at something like this.

With regard to local government, I will not deal with the abolition of town councils as we can leave the topic of abolition off the agenda today.

The Senator's record on that issue is not great.

I will refer to local government because the Senator and I served on local authorities for many years. We know the importance of local government. In the context of political reform discussions that I hope we will have in this House and generally in the coming weeks and months, we should also look at strengthening and empowering local government to deal with the issues we are discussing.

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House and add my support to the motion.

Two aspects concern what we should do for towns centres that are struggling and our vision for their future. I live in Sligo where we are lucky because we have the Cranmore regeneration project. While it is slow, it is slow for a good reason because people want to make sure the mistakes made in other regeneration projects do not happen there. It is exciting to see an entire area in a small city like Sligo being regenerated, with all of the prospects it brings. That is not always possible in other small towns that are struggling with derelict shops. We need to draw up a menu of solutions to counteract serious problems that will pull towns and small cities in a situation from which they cannot be restored. The solutions must come from local people and councillors. We will not get into a dispute about councillors. I refer to solutions about parking. In Sligo there is free parking for the two weeks before Christmas, but the dilemma about revenue arises for the rest of the year. We had a scheme entitled, "I Love Sligo". Various shops signed up and vouchers entitled people to discounts if they signed up and shopped locally. It encouraged people into towns. Others have experimented with these ideas to keep business in place.

I am interested in looking at the bigger picture and having a vision for towns and cities in the future. Many are based on the way we did business in the past, but we have moved on from driving cattle through the main street. We are now doing a lot of business online. That means that we must reinvent our towns and cities because they were built at a time when there was no Internet and the idea of buying and selling online had not been thought of. As the figures for online activity will only increase, we must think about how we can reinvent towns as places where people will want to live part of their lives and not just see them as centres of commerce. They must be attractive places where people will want to meet their friends, enjoy their lives, go to the theatre and the cinema and perhaps cycle their bicycles. I am surprised Senator Ivana Bacik forgot this point.

I am glad that the Senator has reminded me.

They can offer the life people imagine online but can never lead. We must reimagine towns as offering the authentic version of a life we can lead online. Until we start to realise in our heads and the Civil Service and Government mentality that towns are not what they were, there is no point in restoring them to what they were because it is no longer the case. There is a menu of things that could be done locally and immediately. They need to be supported and encouraged, but we must also consider the bigger picture.

What struck me in New York was the High Line, where a train line had been rescued and turned into a park. It was mostly done with private money because several people saw it as an opportunity to showcase New York in a different way. It is only one mile long, but it has captured people's imagination. How do we reinvent the way we live now? It brings green space into a town in a way that we appreciate and that we must value even more. While I was making a small joke at the expense of Senator Ivana Bacik, she and others are dedicated to the idea of cycling and cyclists being made more welcome. Many of my friends and colleagues are working hard with Sligo County Council and other councils to encourage greater awareness of pedestrians and making towns better places to walk around in. We have failed at this in many towns. We still always talk about parking and getting cars into towns. It is about people and getting them to leave their online space and computers and out-of-town places to come into these places because they have rivers, bridges, green spaces and parks. We are lucky in Sligo because we have parks on the edge of the town. We also have adult gyms. They are free and many use them. That is what we must reimagine if we want to see a new life for our towns and cities.

When I lived in Cork quite a number of years ago, the English Market was a place to which I did not go because it did not feel like a place one wanted to be in.

It is now an outstanding example of something that has been recovered and restored and it has a new sense of purpose and identity. The visit of Queen Elizabeth II gave it a lift but it has to sustain itself beyond a queen's visit.

There are ways in which we can develop our natural heritage. Senator Ivana Bacik mentioned Culture Night and Open House. These ideas do not cost money but they show that our towns are places in which to live and that the built heritage is very important. It is a case of joined-up thinking in co-operation with the Minister for Health, in order to encourage healthy living, and with the Minister with responsibility for heritage and culture. We must find better ways to use those spaces. As Senators have said, many small towns are disappearing because we have not reinvented and re-evaluated them.

I thank the Minister of State and Senators and foresee our revisiting this topic in the future.

I found the justification by Senator Cáit Keane for breaking the rules by saying that two Fianna Fáil members had already spoken to be extraordinary. I hope this does not happen again.

Towns need to rise to the challenge. Kells in County Meath has car parking charges which work to the disadvantage of the town and are a disincentive to doing business in the town. I commend the efforts of my Fianna Fáil colleagues, who are in the minority on Kells Town Council, for their efforts to alleviate the situation. Some schemes have been successful, such as the introduction of free parking at Christmas. However, Kells Town Council annual estimates show the massive cost associated with putting paid parking in place. It costs the council significant money to run paid parking. Towns such as Kells should take a chance - especially now that town councils are being abolished - and abolish paid parking to see if there would be a financial return in increased commercial rates as a result of increased commercial activity. There is no doubt that paid parking is a disincentive to visit the town. Drivers need to have the change to put into a machine and hope they do not overstay the time period. While the staff of Kells Town Council are very helpful and are not in the league of what is reported in Dunleer, paid parking is a disincentive. Ashbourne was awarded a retail excellence award for being the fourth best town in Ireland. Ashbourne has a major advantage over other towns because it has free parking. It is quite handy to come to Ashbourne with no worries about leaving the car to do one's shopping. This brings money into the town. I encourage the ruling majority in Kells Town Council to follow some of the advice of my Fianna Fáil colleagues and examine the issue of paid parking. I ask them to go further and to consider the possibility of abolishing it completely, because such a decision would be of great benefit to the town of Kells. It would facilitate people in coming to the town and allow them to take their time in making purchases.

Among the reasons for the increase in out-of-town shopping is that shoppers like out-of-town shopping centres and they like the convenience of big supermarkets. The lack of public transport is another reason for driving by car to out-of-town shopping centres. It is easier to go to an-out-of-town shopping centre. I do not decry out-of-town shopping centres but I say to the towns that they need to respond and paid parking has to be one of the key issues in this regard. I hope that paid parking will not be introduced in those towns in County Meath that do not already have it.

During the debate on the Seanad referendum it was widely claimed that no Bills had been stopped by the Seanad since 1964. However, the commercial rates Bill was stopped last year and I do not know its current status. The Minister put forward a flawed commercial rates Bill. The Fianna Fáil Party pointed out the flaws and it was the only party to oppose the Bill. We have heard nothing further about this Bill in nearly a year. If that Bill were presented to the House on Committee Stage with amendments to provide for a fair appeals system and an inability-to-pay clause, this could be of great assistance to small and medium-sized enterprises. However, there is inertia in the Department with regard to this Bill and nothing has happened in 300 days. The Minister has not presented that Bill to the House. We pointed out the flaws, which are relatively easy to deal with, but they need to be dealt with as a matter of urgency because small businesses cannot hang around. A few months ago the Taoiseach blamed the Seanad for the delay, which was pretty cheeky. That Bill is stuck in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It needs to be radically amended on Committee Stage if we are to support it in order to help business. Commercial rates, paid parking and rents are the key issues because these are the cost factors that are closing down businesses all around the country. It would be far easier to trade and to shop if these costs were not so burdensome.

I commend Senator Denis Landy for his motion. He is from Carrick-on-Suir and he knows all about the problems of small towns in rural Ireland. I will not oppose his motion. I encourage all town councils to abolish the one-hour paid parking system because it is a risk worth taking. They will see the benefits with more people coming into town centres. It is a risk worth taking, in particular, in the commuter belt around Dublin, in the counties of Meath, Kildare and Cavan. It is quite easy to get to retail parks on motorways. There is no point in giving out about retail parks; nor do I agree with taxing them or their parking spaces. The towns must respond and one of the ways in which they can respond is to remove paid parking, while the Government could remove the upward-only rent reviews and deal with commercial rates.

I thank all Senators who contributed to the debate. I sincerely thank Members for allowing this motion to pass without amendment. That means a lot to Senator John Whelan and me because the motion was tabled in the spirit of trying to direct policy in order to improve the lot of small and medium-sized businesses. It gives me no great pleasure to say to the Minister of State that, as we speak, an interim examiner has been appointed to A-Wear, which employs 350 people in 40 shops around the country. This is not an issue that will arise in the distant future; it is happening today, here and now.

We live in two Irelands: rural Ireland and the Ireland of Dublin. They are two different places. Rural Ireland is suffering, but it is not all doom and gloom. We are facing a budget next week, regardless of whether we like it. I am pleased to say that, for whatever little pleasure it gives me, the reduction will be €2.5 billion as opposed to €3.1 billion. That is no great boast and I do not boast about it, but at least it is better than what it looked like two weeks ago.

I welcome much of what the Minister of State said, particularly the fact that direction has been given for a waiver scheme for development levies. I was a member of a local authority for 23 years in Carrick-on-Suir and I am pleased that rates have not been increased in most towns and some towns have reduced their rates. I welcome the JobsPlus scheme, which should be utilised in retailing to take on employees. In response to Senator John Crown, the scheme is logical and it makes sense. People can gain work experience in the retail sector, which will provide them with the opportunity to take up work when the retail economy improves.

The Minister has already set up an interdepartmental group and I hope the Minister of State will take on board what I requested today, namely, a national task force on retailing in town centres in rural Ireland.

We still need guidelines for parking in rural towns, although there have been some fantastic initiatives. When I was on my feet before, I meant to mention the example of Thurles in Tipperary, which has three hours of free parking from 9 a.m. to noon every Saturday. Councillors in the town have told me the footfall in the town is significant in that period. Local authorities have also taken initiatives with regard to rates, and my own town council - I do not mind saying it was led by me - brought forward a rates initiative that gave a rates holiday to new businesses, provided there was no duplication.

If there is a constitutional issue with upward only rents, we should have a referendum on the matter. It could be on the same day as the local elections next year rather than costing the taxpayer another €15 million. I guarantee that the "Yes" side would garner 99% of the vote in that referendum because people want to see businesses trade and survive, and people understand the problem with it.

I accept that there is a cost factor involved in urban renewal, but we could have a scaled back version linked wih job creation, which would ensure retention of jobs was to the fore. That is instead of having bricks and mortar, with units that are no longer needed. We should put our heads together to formulate an urban renewal scheme relevant to where Ireland is today, as opposed to where we were when the previous scheme operated in 1986. I ask that the national task force be put in place as we will see a benefit from it. It will create jobs in the country.

Question put and agreed to.
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