Tá áthas orm an Bille seo a chur faoi bhráid an tSeanaid inniu. Tá súil agam go mbeidh díospóireacht mhaith againn agus go mbeimid in ann na cúrsaí a ardóidh Seanadóirí ó gach cuid den Teach a phlé. Má theastaíonn ó Sheanadóirí aon rud nua a chur isteach sa reachtaíocht, tá súil agam go mbeimid in ann na prionsabail taobh thiar de na leasuithe sin a phlé.
Water Services (No. 2) Bill 2013: Second Stage
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
An féidir linn cóip den ráiteas atá á dhéanamh ag an Aire Stáit a fháil?
Gabh mo leithscéal. Tá sé ag teacht. Tá sé an-tábhachtach go mbeidh díospóireacht oscailte againn agus go mbeidh seans ag gach éinne a gcuid tuairimí a nochtadh.
This Bill is the second legislative milestone in the Government's strategy for the reform of water services provision in Ireland. The Water Services Act 2013 provided for the establishment of Uisce Éireann as a subsidiary of Bord Gáis.
This legislation represents fulfilment of our programme for Government commitments to introduce a fair funding model to deliver clean and reliable water; to establish a new State-owned utility to take responsibility for water infrastructure; and to advance our commitment to implement a charging system based on usage above a free allowance and a programme of water metering of all households, a programme that has seen approximately 50,000 households metered and that will reduce leakage and demand, cutting production by at least 15%.
The challenges facing Ireland's water sector are not unique. Water demand is rising, supply becoming less secure. Our water bodies need greater protection. By 2030, the world is expected to need 40% more water than will be available. We are distinct from most countries by the level of fresh water available, yet we must turn this benefit to our advantage by creating a world class water sector that can and will attract water intensive industries such as ICT and pharma-chem to Ireland as water stress becomes common elsewhere. In the competitive market for inward investment, we would be well placed as one of the top countries, not only in Europe but in the world, for investment where high water intensive industries are being established. By 2030, our river basin management plans will have been reviewed a further three times and the quality of our water bodies will have to have improved. Environmental and economic regulation of water services must be inter-linked. This Bill plans for the future.
I have read the excellent and well-compiled summary of the Bill by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service. It makes the point that the anticipated increase in our population of 1.5 million by 2030 will have to be planned for and the water supplies will have to be in the right places to meet those demands.
The delivery of water services and new infrastructure through Uisce Éireann, working with the local authorities, which have provided water and wastewater services, will involve a new partnership. It will be a partnership combining the local authorities' expertise in operations with the considerable network and utility management experience within Uisce Éireann through the service level agreements for which this Bill provides. The establishment of a new and sustainable funding model will help to secure the level of investment required to upgrade, repair and expand our public water and wastewater infrastructure. Increased investment, as well as securing supply and protecting our water bodies, will provide thousands of additional jobs, adding to the 1,600 jobs sustained through the domestic metering programme and approximately 400 jobs at the call centre when it is up and running to full capacity.
The domestic charges element to the sector's new funding model will be based on fairness. The OECD has stated that metered charges are the fairest form of water charges. The Government agrees. Work is being progressed on the approach to the proposed free allowance and affordability measures which will be introduced by Government to ameliorate the impact of water charges on domestic customers. There will be clarity for the public on these issues well in advance of the commencement of charges and people will have an opportunity to contribute through public consultations to be undertaken by the Commission for Energy Regulator next year.
Independent economic regulation of water services is essential if we are to ensure water customers are protected and the new utility delivers value for money. I am confident the Commission for Energy Regulation will protect the interests of domestic and non-domestic customers. Its scrutiny of Uisce Éireann's budgets and capital plans and determination of water tariffs will be performed with a view to ensuring services are cost-effective and efficiently delivered. The Environmental Protection Agency's environmental regulation of Uisce Éireann will mark continuity with its existing role in monitoring water quality.
The impact of the reforms on the local authority sector and in particular on local authority employees is an important issue for everybody, not least those who work in the sector. It is a very important issue for public representatives on both sides of the House. Given the scale and complexity of the changes involved, engagement with staff and their trade unions has been critical, and the Irish Water Consultative Group, which was put in place to facilitate this interaction, has played a vital role in moving the reform process forward and in helping to shape key aspects of this Bill.
Uisce Eireann and each local authority will be entering into a service level agreement to provide for the delivery of water services. The initial agreement will be of 12 years duration, and once the first agreement comes to a conclusion, the option of entering into subsequent agreements is provided for. Where it is decided not to enter into a subsequent agreement, the Bill provides for the transfer of staff involved in the delivery of the service level agreement from the local authority to Uisce Éireann.
I wish to address some matters which are not provided for as yet in this Bill but which may be introduced as amendments on Committee Stage. The Department is working with the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform and with the Office of the Attorney General on the optimal approach to targeting financial support for the much-needed capital investment, and while the Bill provides that the Minister can make grants to Uisce Éireann, consideration is being given to alternative approaches and an amendment may be required. The Departments and the Office of the Attorney General are also scrutinising the sections of the Bill relating to staffing and superannuation to ensure the interests of staff transferring to Uisce Éireann are adequately protected. If any issues are identified arising from this scrutiny, amendments will be brought forward on Committee Stage. A small number of technical amendments may also be required in Parts 1, 3 and 4 to address drafting issues.
The Department is also considering the requirement for further primary legislation to complete the water services reform programme. In particular it is examining how Irish Water will interact with the local authorities in their role as planning authorities, it is considering how the relationship between the Environmental Protection Agency and Uisce Éireann will develop, and it will be monitoring closely how the new economic regulatory system for water services evolves. If further legislation is required to address any of these matters, proposals will be brought forward for consideration by the Government.
I will outline the purpose and operation of each section of the Bill. Sections 1 and 2 set out the Title of the Bill, its commencement provisions and the definitions of terms used in the Bill. Section 3 is a standard provision enabling the expenses incurred by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government for the administration of this legislation to be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.
Section 4 provides for the repeal of certain sections of the Water Services Acts 2007 and 2013 arising from the transfer of functions to Uisce Éireann. It also provides for the repeal of the Local Government (Delimitation of Water Supply Disconnection Powers) Act 1995. The repeal of this Act, together with the provision in Section 15(8) of the Bill, will ensure households cannot have their water supply disconnected. This an important feature of the legislation. We must be very clear that there has to be due process. If people do not pay, there will have to be clear protocols in place to ensure that at the end of the process, people pay for what they use. A jurisdiction in England had people who cannot pay and people who will not pay and it treated customers differently. If a person had what was called "a water property", that was dealt with in a particular way. If one could pay but did not, there was a civil bill system which worked extremely well. At the end of that stage, if further protocols are needed they will have to be put in place. That is a matter for us all to debate and agree on, if we can. The process must be clear, transparent and fair.
Section 5 defines the terms used in Part 2. Section 6 provides that the transfer day may be appointed by order by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. Section 7 provides for the transfer of functions conferred by the Water Services Act 2007 to Uisce Éireann on the transfer day provided for in section 6. It also provides that water services functions in Part 4A of the Water Services Act 2007 and Part 6 of the same Act, which relate to rural water services, will not transfer to Uisce Éireann. That is an important assurance that group water schemes will remain in the group water sector. Septic tanks and other domestic treatments are not part of the Uisce Éireann focus.
Section 8 provides Uisce Éireann with the power to charge non-domestic customers with effect from the transfer day on the same basis as the local authorities had charged those non-domestic customers prior to the transfer day. This section will only have effect up to the date of the commencement of section 16 which requires Uisce Éireann to charge customers in accordance with the water charges plan, which will be subject to the approval of the Commission for Energy Regulation. The section effectively provides for the roll-over of the non-domestic water charges currently levied by the local authorities until such time as the commission approves Uisce Éireann's charges next year. The commission will consult publicly on the approach to non-domestic tariffs.
Section 9 provides that the provisions of section 29 of the Water Services Act 2007 shall apply to Uisce Éireann. It confers immunity to Uisce Éireann and its employees from prosecutions arising from carrying out their functions under the Bill.
Section 10 provides that the local authorities will continue to have powers, which transfer to Uisce Éireann under section 7, which are necessary for the performance of local authority functions under the 2007 Act. These functions relate to septic tanks and rural water services.
Section 11 provides that actions of a water services authority which commenced before the transfer day but not completed may be carried on and completed by Irish Water, where this action relates to a function transferred under section 7. This would include matters such as planning applications or an Environmental Impact Assessment.
Section 12 provides for the transfer of the property of the water services authorities to Irish Water on a designated property vesting day or vesting days, in other words, they will not all transfer on the same day. The power to transfer is contained in the Bill. The transfers will be facilitated through ministerial orders under this section. Property will include assets such as land, buildings, water services infrastructure, vehicles, pipes, sewers and moneys. A provision is included for the Minister to request any information required from a local authority to enable him decide upon the making of a transfer order. I am aware that Senator Brennan raised an issue with Louth County Council about community facilities attached to a water services facility, such as sports fields or playgrounds. I understand that if there are social activities on properties that will be respected. A Fianna Fáil Member of the Oireachtas raised the question of the use of water by Tidy Towns committees. We will seek clarity on these issues.
Section 13 provides for the transfer of rights and certain liabilities, associated with the property transferred from the water services authorities to Uisce Éireann. Examples of the type of rights and liabilities referred to would be leases, licences and wayleaves. Senator Landy raised that point during the discussion on the earlier Bill.
Section 14 provides for the transfer of other liabilities of a water services authority, namely, those not provided for under section 13, to transfer from the water services authorities to Uisce Éireann . Liabilities transferred under this section shall be designated in a ministerial order.
Section 15 provides for the transfer of staff from local authorities to Irish Water. Such transfers would take place following consultations between each individual local authority and Irish Water. The intention is that this section will only apply to local authority staff involved in the delivery of water services as part of an agreement made between the local authority and Irish Water under section 24, and would only be applied following the termination of such an agreement, that is, after the first 12-year period. There is also a period of consultation. The people concerned must be notified six months in advance and the Bill provides for representations to be made and for discussions to take place with the appropriate personnel.
Section 16 provides that Uisce Éireann shall charge each customer in receipt of water services. The charges to be levied under this section shall be calculated in accordance with a water charges plan which will be published. Uisce Éireann will be prohibited from cutting off a water supply to a dwelling arising from non-payment of water charges. Irish Water will be empowered to disconnect a non-domestic user where water charges remain unpaid and will also have the power to reduce the supply of water to all customers where charges remain unpaid. The power to disconnect a customer from a water supply or to reduce a water supply to a customer will be subject to the approval of the water charges plan under section 17. The section provides that charges will not apply for water supplied to a fire authority for the performance of its functions. It also provides that for the purpose of charging, the owner of a premises will be presumed to be the occupier of that premises unless it is proved to the contrary. I am sure that Irish Water will be reasonable and fair if a business is in difficulties. Irish Water must get the money, but the local authorities use discretion.
Section 17 provides that Uisce Éireann is to prepare a water charges plan setting out the manner and method for the water charges to be applied under section 16. This water charges plan must be submitted to the Commission for Energy Regulator by Uisce Éireann and the commission will have the power to approve or reject the water charges plan. The water charges plan will contain the charges to apply where the charges are based on the quantity of water as measured by a meter or where the charges are assessed based on a formula to be set out in the plan. The plan must specify the charges to apply to different classes of customers and the different methods of payments for customers. Uisce Éireann will, in common with other utility service providers, put in a place a wide range of payment methods and options to facilitate its customers. I think it is very important to have that level of engagement, and have the capacity to meet the needs of consumers. The section provides that water charges will apply to water supplied to a premises and waste water discharged from a premises. The section specifies that unless agreed otherwise between Uisce Éireann and a customer, the amount of waste-water discharged from a premises will be deemed to be equal to the amount of water supplied to the premises. An example of the type of households that would need to differentiate would be those that are in receipt of a water supply from Irish Water but are discharging wastewater to their own septic tanks or similar systems.
Section 18 is a standard provision to define terms used in Part 4 of the Bill. Section 19 provides that Uisce Éireann shall take the necessary steps to amend its memorandum and articles of association to ensure that they are consistent with this Bill. The Water Services Act 2013 set out conditions in relation to the memorandum and articles of association of Irish Water and provided that they must be approved by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, with the consent of the relevant Ministers. The 2013 Act and this Bill provide that any alterations to the memorandum and articles of association require prior ministerial approval and consent.
Section 20 provides that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government may issue a direction to Uisce Éireann, requiring it to comply with Government policy or policies as specified in the direction. Directions shall only be issued by the Minister after first consulting with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.
Section 21 is a standard provision providing for the recruitment of staff by Irish Water, on terms and conditions to be determined by Uisce Éireann. It provides that Uisce Éireann shall have regard to Government policy in relation to the remuneration and conditions of employment of its staff. In light of the current controversy in the health institutions, that is an important point.
Section 22 provides that Uisce Éireann shall prepare a scheme or schemes for the granting of superannuation benefits to staff recruited by Irish Water from a local authority. I stated earlier that the Department and the Office of the Attorney General are examining this section to ensure that the interests of staff transferring to Irish Water are adequately protected.
Section 23 provides that the Minister may make payments to Uisce Éireann in relation to the superannuation costs of members of staff of a local authority accepted into the employment of Uisce Éireann. This funding will cover the financial liability in relation to the service of such staff with local authorities, ensuring that it does not fall to local authorities, given that the functions and assets have transferred to Uisce Éireann and does not fall to Uisce Éireann to fund, which would restrict its capacity to fund necessary investment in infrastructure.
Section 24 provides that Uisce Éireann may enter into service level agreements with the local authorities in order that a local authority can provide services on behalf of Uisce Éireann. The Minister is given the power to direct Uisce Éireann and the local authority to enter into such an agreement and to specify the functions to be included in an agreement in relation to such a direction. An agreement under this section may include provision for the standards to be met by a local authority in the delivery of services on behalf of Uisce Éireann and the provision of payment by Uisce Éireann to a local authority for these services.
The initial agreement between Uisce Éireann and a local authority will be subject to reviews after two years and seven years, respectively. It is intended that the initial agreement will be of 12 years duration unless there is significant failure on the part of the local authority to provide the services under the agreement.
Section 25 provides for the preparation of codes of practice by Uisce Éireann which will be subject to the approval of the Commission for Energy Regulation. The codes of practice shall make provision for customer service standards, billing, methods of payment of water charges, the provision of information to customers of Uisce Éireann and any other matters deemed necessary by the commission. I have looked at websites of water supply companies in the United Kingdom, in particular Anglian Water. They help to get the message out to consumer on how they can reduce their water usage. Hints and aids to reduce water consumption is a key issue. Tools such as social media are very important for engaging with people. There must be proper engagement, not just through the traditional way of engaging, but through websites and social media so that people get the message and best possible information on how to reduce their bills.
Section 26 provides that Uisce Éireann shall, on or before a date to be directed by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, prepare a water services strategic plan which it must submit to the Minister for his approval. The water services strategic plan will set out the objectives of Uisce Éireann in respect of the 25-year period following the approval of the plan and the means by which it proposes to achieve those objectives, including in relation to the following: drinking water quality; prevention of risk to public health and the environment; existing and projected demand for water services; and conservation measures.
In preparing a water services strategic plan, Uisce Éireann will have to ensure, as far as practicable, that the plan is consistent with the national spatial strategy, regional planning guidelines and river basin management plans. The water services strategic plans must also have regard to a range of other policy considerations including proper planning and sustainable development, housing strategies, strategic development zones and water quality plans.
The section provides that the strategic plans should be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and published on the Internet. It also requires that the implementation and operation of the plan be kept under review at least every five years.
Section 27 provides that Uisce Éireann shall prepare investment plans setting out where it considers investment in infrastructure is necessary for the effective performance of its functions. In developing the investment plans, Irish Water shall take account of the water services strategic plan prepared under section 26 and a range of other policy considerations including local area plans, regional planning guidelines and strategic development zones. Before preparing an investment plan, Uisce Éireann will be required to consult with the Environmental Protection Agency, regional bodies in respect of whose functional area the investment plan is likely to apply and each planning authority in respect of whose functional area the investment plan is likely to apply. Copies of the investment plan must be submitted by Uisce Éireann to the regional and planning authorities. The first investment plan shall be prepared for the two-year period after the transfer date. Future investment plans shall be for durations to be determined by the Commission for Energy Regulation.
Section 28 provides that Uisce Éireann may borrow money for the purposes of the Act. Such borrowings are subject to the consent of the Minister of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. The aggregate of moneys borrowed under the section is limited at €2 billion. The existing borrowing limit for Irish Water is €500 million which was set in the Water Services Act 2013 that conferred responsibility on Uisce Éireann to undertake the domestic metering programme.
NewERA has advised the Government on the funding requirements for Uisce Éireann. It recommended that the revised limit is appropriate having regard to level of loans and liabilities that will be transferred from the local authorities to Uisce Éireann, the loan arrangement between Irish Water and the National Pensions Reserve Fund in respect of the domestic metering programme and NewERA's projections of other capital investment requirements that Uisce Éireann will have to provide for over the next few years.
Section 29 provides that the Minister of the Environment, Community and Local Government may, for the purposes of the Act, make grants to Irish Water or to the Commission for Energy Regulation. In determining the provision of any grant under the section, the Minister shall take into account the capital investment plan provided to him under section 27.
Section 30 provides that the CER shall, in the first instance, perform its functions in a manner that best serves the interests of the customers. The commission will be required to have regard to the need for Uisce Éireann to be able to finance its activities, to ensure the continuity, safety and sustainability of water services and to ensure that costs are recovered from the users of water services in accordance with the EU Water Framework Directive.
Section 31 provides that the CER shall advise the Minister on the development and delivery of water services. Section 32 provides for the preparation of strategy statements by the commission and the submission of revised strategy statements to the Minister every three years.
Section 33 provides that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government may issue a policy direction to the Commission for Energy Regulation. This is based on a similar provision in the Gas Regulation Act 1999. Before the Minister issues any direction, a draft of the proposed direction must be given to the commission and the Oireachtas joint committee. A direction issued under the section shall also be published by the Minister in Iris Oifigiúil.
Section 34 provides that the commission may request information from Uisce Éireann that it requires to perform its functions under the Act and that Uisce Éireann must comply with any such request. It also provides that the commission enter into an arrangement with the Environmental Protection Agency for the purposes of administrative co-operation.
Section 35 provides for amendments to the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 arising from the assignment of water services functions to the CER. Sections 36 and 37 provide for amendments to the Water Services Act 2007 and the Water Services Act 2013, respectively. Section 38 provides that Irish Water is required to prepare an annual report on the performance of its functions in the 2013 Act and this Bill. The annual report is required to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas.
Last year the OECD published its report on water reform. It stated that sustainable funding, effective governance and coherence between water and sectoral policies are the building blocks of successful reform for getting the basics of water policy right. With the Bill we are putting building blocks in place and introducing a funding model to secure the investment required for security of reliable water supply. We are creating the governance structures that will enable partnership, efficiency, as well as customer and environmental protection. By bringing greater co-ordination between water policies and other policies across local, regional and national levels we can plan for a more sustainable future.
There are few things more fundamental to any society or economy than water. Táimid ag déanamh ár ndíchill sa Bhille seo i dtreo is go mbeidh go leor uisce á sholáthar do theaghlaigh, do chomhlachtaí agus do fheirmeoirí na tíre seo, go dtiocfaidh an t-uisce sin chucu chomh luath agus chomh maith agus is féidir, go mbeidh an tseirbhís nua féaráilte do gach duine agus go mbeidh an córas measartha ó thaobh cúrsaí sláinte phoiblí agus timpeallachta de.
I look forward to the debate. I am happy to consider all issues that are raised here and to have an open debate. At Committee Stage we will have an open and full discussion on all issues of concern to everybody. I look forward to the contributions that will be made by the Senators. Go raibh maith agat.
I thank the Minister of State. I call on Senator Jim Walsh who has ten minutes.
Go raibh maith agat. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach seo. Bhí sé mar Bhall den Teach seo uair amháin. Ag an am sin, ba mhinic go ndéanfaimis díospóireacht le chéile. Nuair a bhí mé ag caint leis an Seanadóir Ó Domhnaill, dúirt mé go mbeadh sé níos oiriúnaí ainm an Bhille a leasú go dtí "An Bille um Uisce Beatha 2013". I say that because whiskey is obviously known as "uisce beatha" which means the water of life. I have always felt that water is an invaluable and essential resource and it is for that reason I remember the following. In 1983 Dick Spring was the leader of the Labour Party and he introduced water charges. Even though my party held the majority on my local town council we decided to implement the water charges which cost £40 in Irish pounds a year. The decision was not terribly popular but my local council felt that it was the right thing to do. Interestingly, a subsequent Labour Minister removed the water charges in a state of panic when Joe Higgins threatened to take the seat from Joan Burton. Subsequently she lost her seat and water charges were removed.
I am not in favour of everything that is proposed in the Bill. The Minister of State laid emphasis on the Commission for Energy Regulation but I shall return to the matter later and shall deal with the Bord Gáis aspect at the same time.
The Bill will set up an expensive quango. As we have seen with a range of semi-State companies and State services, they are laden with quite a high level of inefficiency, cost ineffectiveness, very high salaries and an excessive amount of staff. That is a feature of public services everywhere and is definitely a feature in Ireland. Bord Gáis is a reasonably good example because it has many examples of same. The same applies to the ESB, as members will know, and other organisations. That worries me. The Minister wants to introduce the legislation at a time when people are hard pressed. This Government, in particular, has laden them down with a significant array of costs. The new charge is on top of the local property tax and great hikes in energy prices.
I shall turn now to the Commission for Energy Regulation. I am not a fan of regulation in this country because it has failed us badly. When I was a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and National Resources I initiated a request where we sought a list of the salaries paid to the top executives in all of the semi-State companies that reported to us, including the regulatory authorities that reported to the committee. The information was provided.
For its own reasons, the committee decided it would be done without publicity, so we dealt with it in committee which I did not think was the best way to deal with it. This was well in advance of a lot of what emerged subsequently, where many of the organisations were brought into disrepute because of the levels of pay and so on. I hope it highlighted for my colleagues on the committee that transparency is an essential part of dealing with this issue and these types of issues.
I have been very underwhelmed by the approach of the Commission for Energy Regulation. The reason for the escalating price of energy over the years would have been perceived by some - I am not sure it is correct - that because many of these people came from some of these organisations or had backgrounds in them or came from the Department which dealt with these organisations, the interest of the consumer was definitely not prioritised.
I refer to the provision of this essential resource without the necessary brakes and balances we have within the local government system. If one were to roll out water charges as in the past, the elected members would play a significant role in ensuring the levy of the charges was reasonable and would have an obligation, which was often discharged, to tackle the cost inefficiencies within the system. This worries me and I would not have any confidence in the Commission for Energy Regulation doing that. I have never seen an example, although perhaps the Minister of State can give me one, where it was shown that the interest of the consumer was prioritised over the interest of the supplier. I have never seen an example of that and I do not think it will happen in this case.
I am concerned because there has been a dearth of investment within the service, which I accept. I presume this will be tackled and that is part of the reason we will borrow. I can see in that scenario that the Commission for Energy Regulation will probably argue it needs to build up reserves to be able to take on these significant investments. I can see the interests of the consumer being sidelined.
Bord Gáis was mentioned and I know people who worked in it. It has a very good reputation but when one scratches underneath the surface, it certainly does not come out smelling of roses as a tightly disciplined, cost-effective corporate entity.
We should have certain criteria to underpin what we are doing. One should be that it is cost efficient. We are stripping away the functions from democratically elected members of local authorities and providing this quango, which I understand will have up to 500 employees with another 400 in call centres. Abtran will be involved. We have seen examples of large consultancy firms being involved.
I cannot understand why the company will not be open to freedom of information from day one because many of these consultancy costs need to be put under the microscope. If we are learning anything from what is coming out of the HSE and other public bodies, surely it must be that we need to get a grip on these before they become issues and problems. Due to the failure of our State apparatus to control these overhead costs and excessive salaries, what we will end up with in a few years is a huge pressure building up from other workers in these organisations, who do not occupy these privileged positions, for huge increases. As a State, we have been moving back in a better direction of being competitive, but we are still far short of meeting the competitive benchmarks we need to meet, which are western European countries. Salaries across these companies, the public service and these Houses should all be benchmarked with what is happening in western Europe - in Germany, the Benelux countries, France, Spain, Britain and Scandinavia. If we do not want to be back into a situation where we are struggling economically, we must pitch our tent in that particular arena.
Hard-pressed consumers are not just faced with the property tax but with huge increases in health insurance, which we raised in this House, specifically because of a change in Government policy. I understand between €100 and €400 per year will be added and nobody will ensure it is towards the lower end rather than the higher end. There will not even be freedom of information to expose it.
I refer to the audit of this network and tackling the waste within the system. A lot of water is wasted. I do not know if any consideration has been given to a more efficient structure. I know it will probably involve a lot of capital costs but we treat water, which is expensive to process, and flush it down the toilet or use it for washing rather than human consumption. I do not know if there is scope in that area. I would like to see some vision emerge and some brakes put on this.
I have set out the position. Our party is opposing the Bill for some of the reasons I mentioned. We are not alone in opposing this Bill. The Labour Party's election manifesto stated it did not favour water charges. On 18 February 2011, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, said the Labour Party did not favour water charges. On 28 June 2010, the leader of Labour Party, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, stated in the Irish Examiner, with which I am sure Senator Clune is familiar, that he was against water charges, that water was a necessity, that he always believed essential services like water should be delivered as a public service, that a flat household charge would be unfair as it would not discriminate between houses with five bathrooms or no bathroom, and that metering was unworkable. That comment was made by the Tánaiste three years ago. I look forward to hearing the answers from the Minister of State and from those in the Labour Party.
I say well done to the Minister of State on getting to the Bill to this stage and on the establishment of Irish Water. This is the second Bill this year and this one provides for the transfer of water services which are currently the responsibility of the 34 local authorities.
I welcome the Bill and have always been supportive of the establishment of an organisation like Irish Water which is important for many reasons. It is most important we have efficiencies, we do not have gaps in the services and we have oversight of our water supply and water treatment. The issue of water charges was mentioned by Senator Walsh. Water charges were required to be introduced following the agreement with the troika, so I am surprised Fianna Fáil opposes the Bill on that basis. There seems to be collective amnesia in some quarters. Having said that, I have always agreed with water charges.
The need for an establishment like Uisce Éireann was brought home to me in November 2009. When I was preparing my notes for today, I thought about November 2009 when Cork had severe disruption to water supplies. Following flooding of the water treatment plant in Cork, there was no water available in the city, although there was in the county council area. Cork city is a small area but there was no connection between the two areas. It highlighted the fact we do not have a system which crosses municipal boundaries. Also at that time, during severe cold weather, a number housing estates were without water, in particular those built relatively recently, because the pipes were not at a sufficient depth below the surface and were subject to freezing.
This happened in an era when we know well that pipes need to be below a certain level - I think it is a metre to the underside - to be out of the freezing zone. That was allowed to happen. I know it is another story but it is one that Irish Water or Uisce Éireann will have to consider and resolve over the next few years.
Uisce Éireann is being established to introduce efficiencies and we had a very informative briefing on this yesterday. Instead of having 34 individual authorities preparing their water plans and buying services, all of that knowledge and experience will be pooled in one authority. That is very welcome. It will be a better service for the consumer. Irish Water will produce its strategic plan. There will be a regulator. Irish Water will have to establish what and how it will charge. This will lead to a more transparent system, which will be very welcome. Like the Minister of State and most people in this House, I served in a local authority. At this time of year when we prepared our estimates the issue of charges to the non-domestic user was always very contentious because there was a suspicion that the commercial sector was supporting the domestic sector in the absence of domestic charging. That will all be in the past and there will be more openness and transparency.
We need to review the water infrastructure. There has been investment and significant progress on this in the past 15 years. I mentioned the issue that arose in Cork in 2009. In the past month the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government gave the go-ahead for a connector between the two local authorities and this year there has been funding for refurbishment of the water scheme in Cork. I am sure that there are other positive stories like that throughout the country. There is much more work to be done.
The urban wastewater discharge update report published by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, last June stated that 42% of wastewater treatment plants do not meet all quality standards or EPA guidelines. Different schemes have been stitched together which compromises the national supply and many of our systems are out of date. Some date back to the Victorian era, others from the 1950s and 1960s when we replaced sections of our network with asbestos cement. We also need to replace the lead piping. Our network is not of the required standard. There have been breakages and leaks that have been patched up across the country. We need to draw up a scheme to replace the essential networks that will be part of the plan. Some of that is already happening.
We need certainty of supply, and of its quality and cost, which we will get now. In respect of foreign direct investment, would-be investors need to see that there is a secure supply. The pharmaceutical and ICT sectors are massive users of water. There has been much infiltration of ground water into our sewerage network which loads the wastewater treatment. All those problems need to be sorted out. The fact that we have longer, drier spells now means that security of supply and storage facilities need to be addressed.
I welcome what the Minister of State said about those workers who will transfer from local authorities to Irish Water, and that he may have to introduce an amendment on Committee Stage to protect the employment rights they have built up. It is a welcome proposal because they are concerned about that. I acknowledge that the service level agreement with the local authorities will ensure that the corporate knowledge and experience that they have in dealing with the local networks will not be lost and will continue to be available to Irish Water.
The consultation period with the regulator on how the charges will be established will be very important. The Government has not yet established the terms of the free allowance or where it will be but it is important to establish that there will be an allowance. I am sure that will come up in the debate, in respect of people who have medical needs or large families. The Minister of State said that it will not be possible to cut off the water supply but restrictions will be in place. There will be caveats to that statement because there will be people who refuse to pay even though they can pay.
I welcome this Bill. Bord Gáis has experience of managing its own network across municipal boundaries and of dealing with customers on an individual basis and on a larger scale. This knowledge is very important and its experience is perfectly pitched to this type of performance. This is a good day. We look forward to weeding out all the difficulties we have with our water supply and treatment. We need to send out the message that we have a world-class system where there has been a dearth of much-needed investment. We look forward to progressing in the years ahead and we look forward to getting to a point where we can see and plan ahead how our water services can be developed and protected.
I welcome the Minister of State back to the House. He always listens but he is not always able to act even when he agrees with what is said. I have spoken about the water supply for many years. It is one natural resource in which this country has an embarras de richesses. We have plenty of the raw supply of water.
I accept completely that we cannot simply take the rainwater out of the sky and use it for domestic purposes. It would not be practical or sanitary and we need to be protected against various microbial infections and pollutants and so on. There is a clear charge on the State to provide plant and insulation for the treatment of water and provision of adequate services and piping and all the rest. I have no problem with water charges. I never opposed them. I believe in paying for what we use. For that reason the idea of the payment per cubic metre of water is appropriate. It depends of course where that is put. I hope it will be put at the lower end.
Can the Minister of State indicate something about the phrase that has been tossed around of a "free" water element? Does he have any idea what the quantification of this is likely to be? Although I agree with the charges, I also agree with my colleagues on this side of the House who said that it will be a great burden for many people because of the accumulation of different taxes. There are now so many. In one report, I read that the average four-member family might have to pay up to €500 a year. That could be crippling for people on tiny margins. For that reason I am also very glad that the Minister has decided not to allow Irish Water to cut off supplies. That would be an outrage and a kind of violation of human rights. Why have this mean business of reducing the water? If the Minister is prepared to go to court when people do not pay why not leave it at that? Why reduce the water supply? There is something rather Scrooge-like in that. How much will they get? By how much will it be reduced? What will the impact of that be on a family, particularly if there is a sick person in the family or a need for extra water?
It is a pity this legislation has really been sparked by the EU and the IMF agreement. We should have done it years ago, although I am not blaming this Government as it goes back to Government after Government. They simply did not invest and there was a massive lack of investment in water infrastructure. The last really huge water programme was one that is mentioned in Ulysses, the Vartry reservoir in 1904. We have neglected this partly because, I suppose, we see the grey waters pouring out of the skies all the time. I always laughed when they said "Don't water your garden in the summer". The minute I heard that, I used to go out and leave the hose on because I thought that the sooner we have a crisis, the better, and if I can add to that crisis in any way, I will, because that is the only way they will ever face up to the situation.
With regard to metering, I have a number of particular concerns. I have mentioned this before, and the Minister of State nodded and says he is in agreement, but I do not know that anything is happening about it. First, the installation of the metering seems to have been outsourced and commercial companies are doing it. I would like to think they will be given very strict instructions within the Georgian core of Dublin that they must not continue to destroy the antique pavement. This is a heritage from the 18th century yet it is routinely desecrated, and the local authorities used to replace it with concrete in some places. We kicked up hell about this in North Great George's Street and were eventually successful. The local authorities have since been very good about it. I am concerned about the outsourced people because they do not give a tinker's curse about heritage on many occasions, whereas the employees of the corporation certainly did.
The other issue I am concerned about in regard to metering is the need for joined-up thinking. If we look at the helpful explanatory memorandum, the Minister's speech and the context around this, it is perfectly clear that the utilities are all interconnected in one way or another. We have Irish Water, the gas people and the electricity people, and they are all related and interconnected, and are all, more or less, already involved in this project. The point I made to the Minister of State, and I would like to know if he has any comment on this - he did nod, but it might just have been a nervous tic - is why in the name of God can we not put in one universal meter which can be read electronically and remotely for electricity, water and gas. This avoids estimated readings given that, very often, meter readers cannot get into the house. Of course, they will be able to access the water meters from outside but we will still be left with the electricity and the gas. Given they are all inter-related, why not seize this moment? I gather they have already started putting in these meters, but they had not started when I said it first. It seems to be clear logic to do this as it would be much more efficient. In my own case, for example, I was quite pleased to be estimated because they had overestimated me so hugely that it ended up with the gas board owing me €1,000, so even though I have had a boiler breakdown which has been repaired, I am still in credit, which was rather nice to find out. However, I would much prefer to have this accurately done.
Turning to the Minister of State's speech, what about the people in the countryside who have their own independent supply? I presume there is no proposal to meter them. If they have their own well and provide their own water, they are completely excluded from this, which is fine and exactly the way it should be. I wonder should there not be a universal charge for water. Presumably, it will not vary from county to county, which I know happens in terms of commercial development. I believe the Minister of State is indicating there will be one rate, which is good.
They are establishing a new State-owned utility to take responsibility for the water metering and all the rest, "a programme that will reduce leakage and demand, cutting production". How will it do so? Putting in a water meter will not reduce leakage. From lip reading, I see the Minister of State is indicating that it will, so I look forward to the reply which, although I cannot stay to hear it, I will read with great interest. If the Minister of State says it will, I take it that it will. However, I do not see how simply metering will do this. It will perhaps indicate the source of leaks-----
It will identify leaks on the customer side that would not be otherwise identified.
The customer will be responsible for the charge.
The first fix will be free. This will reduce wastage by at least 10%.
We will have Committee Stage later, Senator.
I am being helpful.
The Minister of State's interjection is extremely helpful to me, and I am very grateful to him for his usual courtesy.
A public utility is being created. I like public utilities and I believe they should stay public utilities. I would like it if the Minister of State could give an undertaking that, certainly as far as this Government is concerned, this is not the first stage of a privatisation. I really do not want to see privatisation, which I do not believe works in England. When the corporation here privatised the bins, it made an ungodly mess of it. It is still a mess and is still financially corrupt. I do not believe we should go down that avenue.
It is interesting that the gentleman in charge of Irish Water was the former Dublin city manager, which may give him certain insights into the situation. Given everybody is so interested in money these days, could we have a notion of his salary, which I presume is on the public record?
It is €200,000 a year.
Does that breach any guidelines?
No, not that I am aware of.
We will have Committee Stage later.
Yes, I understand that, thank you, but the Minister of State is so helpful that I cannot resist. This again brings in the question of hospital executives. If somebody is supposed to be in charge of several hospitals and was paid €250,000, and is then dropped down to €109,000, it is very odd, particularly when we are able to transfer a civil servant from one situation to another and he still gets considerably over what these people are expected to get.
The Senator has one minute left.
Thank you. The Minister of State also said the metering means "1,600 jobs sustained". I think that a rather sly use of the word "sustained" because these are expendable, limited jobs that are not going to be sustained. They will be for four years, but when you get to my age, four years is absolutely damn all - you just do not notice it flying. That is not sustainable employment. It is employment for a satisfactory period but still not the correct one. Again, I agree with the Government that metering is the fairest method.
With regard to financing, "the Bill provides that the Minister can make grants to Irish Water, consideration is being given to alternative approaches and there may be an amendment required." Is the Minister of State in a position to give us information as to what those alternative approaches are likely to be? Is it funding through a flotation on the stock market? I would be interested to know in what way it will be funded.
There is also the question of ensuring the interests of staff, which is good. As I raised in regard to the earlier Bill, I consider it very important to know the relationship between the new body and the local authorities, particularly in terms of planning. This will be vital and unless it is properly addressed, it could undermine the entire process.
With regard to water charges for supply to a premises where waste water is also discharged, given it is specified that they amount to the same thing, if I were in a light-hearted mood I would say they are not always discharged. If one is supplying one's swimming pool, for example, or filling one's moat, as members of parliament in a neighbouring island do, it is not discharged at all. Perhaps these poor aristocrats should be looked at for their moats and their swimming pools.
The Senator is way over time.
Am I? There is just this point I would like to make. The aggregated money is limited to €2 billion. NewERA has been advising the Government. Who are they? They sound like a lot of do-gooders, but I presume they are some sort of financial crowd. I would like to know what their services are and what the cost is.
I call Senator Landy.
I believe I am addressing the Minister of State with responsibility for NewERA so that might clarify one point. I welcome the Minister of State to the House and welcome his opening address. The briefing document that was supplied to us by the Oireachtas Library was indeed excellent and it supplied strong and irrefutable evidence that we need to build out our water system.
It contrasts greatly with the evidence that was made available today by the other State organisation, EirGrid, regarding the case for opposing the undergrounding of cables. That is another day's work and is not a matter for the Minister of State here today.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I have kept a close eye on the Bill right from time of the previous one. I have had a lot of discussions with staff representatives, particularly SIPTU representatives. I appreciate and welcome the work done by the LRC to try to find a way forward but I shall return to the matter later.
Many concerns about the Bill were voiced in the early days. I thank the Minister of State for the work that he has put into the legislation. I raised a number of issues in a previous Bill before the House. The Minister of State said that he would address them in this Bill which he has done and I sincerely thank him for doing so. It is important that when Senators raise issues here, following discussions with other people and experts, the relevant Minister listens and includes it in legislation.
The Bill provides for the transfer of water services and functions from 34 water service authorities to Irish Water to ensure cost savings. Reference was made to the cost of staff, etc., in the new structure. I am satisfied that the staff on the ground, notwithstanding the top tier of staff, are working at a rate that will provide efficiencies in the new organisation. The Bill will also ensure that a combination of expertise spanning all local authorities will be available to Irish Water. That is extremely important and is an issue that I have raised with the Minister of State before. Senator Clune referred to the fact that the expertise in local authorities, particularly local knowledge on water networks which is critical, will be maintained, saved and availed of for the years ahead. Many years ago my local authority had a local town plumber, Lord have mercy on his soul, who memorised the entire water network. When he died we discovered that the network had never been recorded on paper. My local authority learned a lesson. It realised that it is critical to have such knowledge documented and it has since been recorded on a GIS system.
The Bill also provides for service level agreements between Irish Water and local authorities. I shall return to the matter later because I wish to ask a few questions. A service level agreement is necessary for a smooth changeover and was a critical issue when we discussed the previous Bill. The agreement will last 12 years. In the Bill and explanatory memorandum reference was made to what may happen after the 12 years expires. Does the Minister of State believe that there will not be a follow-on after the 12 years? Has he concerns? The question has been put to me by worker representatives and I ask him to clarify the matter when he responds.
Representatives will work at a regional level with local authorities to ensure that the service level agreements are adhered to. How deep will the drilling go? Who will measure the depth on an ongoing basis?
The Bill refers to but does not provide for water charges. Can he let me know his thoughts on the matter? I know that the situation will follow on from where we are today. I ask that consideration is given to large families on low incomes, carers in the home and people who, for one reason or another, must use extra water. The Minister of State made reference to the matter in his contribution in terms of the Tidy Towns committees and various community groups. I welcome his comments because the matter is extremely important.
A section in the Bill provides that water can be cut off to commercial operations or premises but not for non-commercial entities. Will the provision stand up? The provision will cause problems because many people live over their premises, for example. I know that the issue has been thrashed out a lot with local authorities. What happens if a retail business where the owner and his or her family lives over the house, closes down because he or she cannot pay commercial rates and the water is due to be cut off? How will the matter be dealt with and clarified?
The Commission for Energy Regulation is responsible for ensuring that decisions are made in the best interest of the customer. Earlier one Senator questioned whether the commission will act in the interest of the customer or the supplier. Common sense should prevail and people should realise that the commission will act in the interest of the customer because that is why it exists in the first place. Is the Minister of State satisfied with the provision?
I have already referred to the fact that 4,000 people work in local authorities in the water sector. Also, service level agreements are due to last 12 years. Is the agreement's duration directly linked to security of employment for local authority workers? Is there a correlation? There is a little ambiguity that needs to be cleared up for me, even though I pose the question on behalf of other people.
The Minister of State has clarified that all of the terms and conditions for the people who are and have transferred will move with them. Will they get individual “letters of comfort”? That term was used by Aer Lingus in the past. Can he clarify the current position?
With regard to getting ready for metering in 2015, the meters shall be put in place and ready by the last quarter of 2014. Practically all commercial premises have a water meter but there are still many meters to be installed. It has been estimated that between 200,000 and 300,000 units of housing, many of which are apartments, cannot and will not be metered in time but there is a mechanism to estimate their water usage. I am talking about apartment blocks so shall use them as the most common example. Will apartment blocks have individual meters or will it always be a guesstimate scenario?
I have a concern about the call centre to be set up and I have raised the issue with the Minister of State here, at committee and at the briefing. The representations that local authority members make to the water section of their local authority are dealt with first hand by the staff. What will happen to the service when Irish Water runs the water services for local authorities? To whom can representations be made, either by local authority members or Oireachtas members? At yesterday's briefing some of his staff suggested that a special telephone line could be made available to public representatives.
It would be sensible were Irish Water to make contact with every councillor through local employees who will brief them on contact numbers and all of that. That is what the process will be.
I welcome the initiative. The Minister of State has a genuine interest in seeing that local representatives have access. It was one of the greatest issues and concerns that they expressed to me. They wondered what would happen if something happens on a Sunday. At present, and I told him before, the head of water in my local authority sends a text to tell councillors and Oireachtas members what is happening. We want that service retained.
As he comes from rural Ireland, the Minister of State will be well aware of the continual liaison and interaction between those involved in group water schemes and local authority staff. The local authorities provide help to group water schemes even though they are separate entitles. Does the Minister of State envisage a similar approach will be adopted by Irish Water? It is critical. I know the local authorities are separate, but they provide critical assistance and expertise to group water schemes. Can the Minister of State ensure this knowledge base is made available to those involved in group water schemes? As the Minister of State knows, we are talking about people who come together in their own areas to provide water services.
I have asked the Minister of State about the transfer of staff. Can he explain why a 25 year timeframe will apply to the water service plans that will have to be set out? Did somebody decide that 25 years was a suitable length of time? Is there more to it? I cannot see a reason for it in the legislation. It seems like an awfully long time for which to have to set out a plan. It could be argued that it is visionary to set out a plan for 25 years. I would like some clarity on that. I thank the Minister of State for his contribution.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit agus a chuid feidhmeannaigh atá anseo le haghaidh na díospóireachta ar an mBille seo, a bhaineann leis an táille a bheidh á ghearradh ar chustaiméirí agus ar thithe ar fud na tíre i dtaca le cúrsaí uisce. Tá a fhios againn go léir go bhfabhraíonn costais nuair a chuireann na húdaráis áitiúla uisce ar fáil. Cosnaíonn sé thart ar €1.2 billiún an t-uisce sin a chur ar fáil. Tagann thart ar €200 milliún ar ais ó thaobh na táillí uisce a ghearrtar ar lucht gnó na tíre seo. Tá a fhios againn le cois sin go bhfuil fadhbanna ollmhóra i dtaca leis an uisce a chailltear. I accept that certain costs are associated with the provision of water. All consumers want to get top quality water on demand when it is required. They expect the European safety legislation that governs this area to be adhered to. There is no question that providing this service costs money. Before now, that cost was met through the local government fund or through the general taxation mechanism. The legislation that governs this area and allows the Government to charge for water is section 65A(1) of the Public Health Ireland (Act) 1878, which allows sanitary authorities to charge for water. We are seeing the reintroduction of water charges, which were introduced in 1983 and abolished in 1997.
I have a couple of general queries. According to library and research service documentation which has been mentioned by other speakers, 77% of households are connected to the public mains, 9% are connected to group water schemes which are connected to public supplies, 3% are connected to private group water schemes and 10% are connected to other schemes. A small number of units - 2,908 - are not connected to any facility. Can the Minister of State outline whether houses connected to public or private group water schemes will be charged under this legislation? Obviously, charges cannot be imposed on houses that are connected to other private sources, such as wells and rivers. I contend that in the same way, charges should not be imposed on private group water schemes or on those who do not have any connection. I understand the legislation provides that people can be charged for wastewater as well. Perhaps the Minister of State will provide some clarification in that regard. How can charges be imposed on houses without any public drinking water supplies? Maybe it is my reading of it, but I do not think the legislation is clear on the question of wastewater. Will the Minister of State clarify that further? No provision is made in this Bill for exemptions in the cases of people who cannot afford to pay. Regardless of whether we like it, some people will not be able to afford to pay for water.
I would like to move on to speak about charging. The Commission for Energy Regulation has been mentioned. The library and research service has done some work on the position across Europe. The average price of water across many European cities ranges from 40 cent to €5.75 per 1,000 litres. There are huge variations within countries. In Sweden, for example, people in Malmö pay just €1.03 per 1,000 litres whereas people in Gothenburg pay €4.19. What is the Government's policy on pricing throughout the country? Will there be a universal price? According to an estimate that has been provided by the library and research unit, the average level of water consumption in Ireland is approximately 150 litres per person per day. International experience tells us that consumption is likely to decrease by approximately 15% if this change is introduced. That is what happened in England. If a similar decrease takes place here, average water consumption will fall to approximately 127.5 litres per day, or 3,825 litres per person per month. According to the most recent census, some 1.39 million households are connected to the public mains. There are four people living in most of those households. The cost of providing the water is €1.2 billion. The average price across Europe is €1.93 per 1,000 litres per month. This would mean that Irish consumers would pay €7.30 a month, or €87.67 per year. The average household has 2.78 people living in it.
According to the figures I have cited, this measure is likely to take in €339 million per annum. The Government is seeking to generate €500 million per annum, however. If that objective is to be achieved, an average cost of €129.31 per person will have to be imposed for the use of water. If the €500 million target is to be achieved, that theoretically means the average cost per household would be approximately €360. That estimate is based on the figures from the library and research service. I join the Minister of State in praising the thorough work of that service. If we take the figure of €360 per household per annum as an average, we must bear in mind that it will be imposed on top of the property tax and other charges. I have no faith in the Commission for Energy Regulation, by the way. We are living in an era in which the cost of living should come down. Why has the commission allowed the price of electricity to increase by 15% per annum in that context? What will happen if its form to date is encapsulated in what is coming down the tracks with Irish Water? If we assume that Irish Water is to be allowed to do the same thing, I suggest that the average base charge will start from €300 or €360 per household - this is based on the census figure of 2.78 people per household - and will escalate from there. That is all I have to say about pricing.
We are fundamentally opposed to this measure. I accept it was included in the EU-troika programme. Nothing in that programme has prevented the Government from renegotiating part of the Irish Water proposal, especially in light of the constraints households are under at present. Nothing in the troika programme requires the establishment of a quango like Irish Water. The Government is removing democratic accountability. At present, local authority members are able to hold council officials to account. If there is a water pipe burst in a local village, one can contact the local councillor or engineer with knowledge in this regard. Under the new system, one will have to ring a call centre in Cork to report a local burst pipe up the road. That is exactly what is going to happen. When the transfer of responsibilities takes place, there will still be people working in the local authority sector. Between 4,000 and 4,500 people work in the water directorates of local authorities. Can the Minister clarify what will happen when the transfer of responsibilities takes place? Will there be redundancy obligations when people leave local authorities and get 12 year contracts? Who will pay those redundancy obligations? If so, where will that money come from? What will be the cost of those redundancies across the sector?
I ask the Minister of State about section 6 of the Local Government Act 1998, which is being amended in the new local government legislation to allow the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to transfer up to €600 million. I understand from an Oireachtas committee meeting that took place yesterday that €500 million from that fund will be transferred to Irish Water. Can that be clarified? What will that money be used for? How will the shortfall in the local government fund, which is established on the basis of people paying their motor tax, be made up?
Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire go dtí an Seanad. Is ó mo chontae féin é agus is onóir dom é fáilte a chur roimhe.
I agree that metering is and will be the fairest way of charging for water consumption. The more one uses, the more one pays. Metering will educate people to conserve water and to be careful in their use of water. I agree with the Minister of State that metering will identify leaks. Small but visible leaks are often ignored by householders or landowners. I predict that when householders and landowners study their water charge bills, they will see the cost of those leaks and decide to remedy them.
I live at the foot of the Cooley mountains and I see numerous rivers flowing down the mountains into the sea. I often think there must be something we can do to help conserve more of this valuable commodity. We have reservoirs in Omeath and Carlingford. We should consider the possibility of increasing reservoir capacity in mountainous areas in particular. It grieves me to see water flowing down the side of the mountain in wet winters. I note the programme will reduce leakages of a valuable commodity by 15%. The Bill also plans for the future which is most important. The new funding model for the domestic sector will be based on fairness. Should the initial agreement period of 12 years be reviewed so that it could be a period of five or ten years, for example? There is obviously a reason for choosing a period of 12 years.
It runs for 12 years but there is a review after two and five years.
I thank the Minister of State for the clarification. Section 15 provides for the transfer of staff from local authorities to Uisce Éireann. Such transfers will take place following consultations between each individual local authority and Uisce Éireann. The intention is that this section will only apply to local authority staff involved in the delivery of water services as part of an agreement between the local authority and Uisce Éireann. There is a question about the pension rights of local authority staff with long service who move to Uisce Éireann. Will those rights be transferred?
Those rights will hold.
That is good. Irish Water will be prohibited from cutting off water supplies. When ESB bills were not being paid, people were given every possible opportunity to pay the bill and disconnecting supply was regarded as the very last resort. Uisce Éireann will leave a certain flow of water which may not be adequate for all domestic use. Is it the case that commercial premises could be disconnected completely? I am unsure whether this is fair treatment of commercial enterprises who give employment and I ask the Minister of State not to disconnect them. I am confident that Uisce Éireann will consider payment options such as deferred payment.
Cé go gcuirim fáilte roimh an Aire, ní chuirim aon fháilte roimh an mBille atá os ár gcomhair inniu, mar sílim go bhfuil sé éagórach ar an dream sa sochaí nach bhfuil an oiread sin acmhainní acu agus go bhfuil muid ag dul i dtreo príobháidiú na seirbhísí uisce.
The Water Services Bill (No. 2) is like its predecessor, an inherently flawed and draconian document. The Water Services (No.1) Bill established Uisce Éireann as a subsidiary of An Bord Gáis Éireann, a company which this Government said it intends to sell off. This new company will be given power to install water meters and to charge families for the water they use. In Denmark, with a population similar to our own, water metering is in place and in 2007, the average cost per household was €715. The water services Bills do not take into account people on low incomes or even those currently living in poverty. Under this legislation, poor households will be charged the same for their water as An Taoiseach, Enda Kenny or, as the Minister of State said, the chief executive officer of the company who earns €200,000 a year. This is shameful and it betrays a complete and utter lack of consciousness about issues to do with environmental justice. Any development - including that of our water system - which ignores the essential needs of the poorest people, whether in this country or abroad, is not sustainable.
According to a major report by the British Chartered Institute of Environmental Health, a household spending of over 3% of income on water charges is at risk of water poverty. The report, Water Poverty in Wales and England, found that UK households in the lowest three income deciles spend on average 3% of their net income on water bills whereas the average spend for all households is just 1%. The report states that large water bills have the potential for causing significant deprivation. However, despite international evidence, this Bill does not even attempt to protect low income families and those who are regarded as vulnerable.
Sinn Féin is against the privatisation of water and against the introduction of charging for water. The establishment of Irish Water, along with the imposition of water meters and water charges, is, at best, ill thought-out. It transpires that meters cannot be installed in one third of households in Dublin. This will also be the case in many parts of the country. If water meters equal water conservation, then the Government has a serious problem.
The Water Services (No. 2) Bill sets out the legal basis for domestic charges, thereby facilitating the Government in the introduction of water charges and water metering. However, we need to see the Government-sponsored drive towards water metering in the context of overall Government policy. Sinn Féin condemns the wave of cuts of water investment planned from 2012 onwards, as outlined in the Government's plan for capital investment for the period 2012 to 2016. Capital investment in water services is being cut from almost €435 million in 2011 to €331 million in 2012. This is a cut of €100 million or almost 25% and a cut of nearly €200 million on the 2010 allocation, with more cuts planned until the budget is just €266 million.
The budgets of consecutive Governments have brought extreme financial pressure to bear on families. Water metering has an immediate and negative impact on low income families. When taking the poverty levels and income distribution in Ireland into account, it is obvious that water charges will have a significant impact on households and their income. Sinn Féin agrees that we need a co-ordinated approach on the island of Ireland towards ensuring that water is brought to where it is needed when it is needed. We must ensure that homes and communities are protected against the adverse effects of flooding from too much water. Currently in this State, there are 34 local authorities supplying water to nearly two million households. Sinn Féin agrees there needs to be better co-ordination but Sinn Féin is opposed to water charges on the island of Ireland. The current proposal to install water meters and charge households for water was dreamed up by Fianna Fáil, brought to life by Fine Gael and supported by the Labour Party.
Fianna Fáil stated in its National Recovery Plan 2011-14 that part of the expenditure savings package would arise from the introduction of a scheme for the metering and charging of domestic water. Overall, it is anticipated that these measures could lead to annual savings of up to €500 million.
The Water Services (No. 2) Bill 2013 sets in train a process that will see 1.3 million holes drilled outside people's homes and water meters installed using money from the National Pensions Reserve Fund, NPRF. These households, which are currently paying taxes for the water they use, will have to pay again for the same water. This means that residents will be paying three times for each glass of water they drink - first through their income taxes, second through the NPRF investment and third through water rates.
The installation of water meters will prove to be costly and inefficient. Experts, including the local authority professional officers, have estimated that €1.2 billion will be needed to cover the cost. In England, private companies are still attempting to install water meters 20 years after they were first introduced. The Bill has nothing to do with water conservation and everything to do with taking more power away from local authorities and centralising it ahead of preparing for the full privatisation of our water service. The Bill is nothing more than a Trojan horse for privatisation. The Minister of State has claimed that it is not the Government's intention to privatise, but those intentions easily change when opportunities arise.
Sinn Féin has actively campaigned against water charges in the past and we will redouble our efforts to ensure that these charges end up in the rubbish bin of history. Sinn Féin fully understands the challenge that lies ahead for the water sector, but the Government has used the crisis as an opportunity to promote its right-wing agenda of charging ordinary people for the use of something they already own and pay for through their taxes. Our approach is different. It is based on ensuring that water provision remains in public ownership and is paid for through progressive taxation. Sinn Féin proposes investing money from the NPRF in creating real jobs that have a positive legacy. The money being wasted on meters should be invested in upgrading an ageing, leaking water distribution system. The €500 million referred to in the Bill would fund the water conservation strategy for six years. This would be a far more appropriate investment than meter installation.
The water sector is managed by the 34 local authorities. The move to Irish Water will not improve accountability or governance. Local authorities are accountable to their communities. They are able to meet local demands and can provide solutions to local crises and emergencies. With the establishment of Irish Water, the water sector will no longer be accountable to elected public representatives or the public they serve. To register a complaint or raise a concern, one will no longer go to a local councillor. Rather, one will telephone an 1800 number for a call centre that has no connection with local authorities.
The State's water distribution network is antiquated. A decade of underinvestment means that more than half of the water in some local authority areas is leaking away. It is not the householder, but the network that is the main culprit when it comes to water waste. It needs to be replaced.
With average leakage at a staggering 41%, we understand that there needs to be an increased level of capital spending. While the Minister of State's proposals are focused on the domestic householder, there is no mention of the debt owed by the commercial sector, where only 52% of water rates are collected.
The crisis facing water supply does not start or finish at the Border. Recognising that river basin districts cover both sides of the Border, it is essential that there be co-ordination of the water sector. We need to develop an all-Ireland strategy on water provision.
The Senator's time has well concluded.
Sinn Féin calls for the establishment of a national water sector framework team to oversee the governance of the water sector and capital investment therein. All evidence suggests that metering is a bad idea being enforced by a bad Government that is hell bent on making ordinary families pay for the economic disaster. The Bill should be rejected and replaced by a proper plan for the co-ordination of water services adequately funded by a progressive tax system.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House and commend him on the progressive and constructive content of this Bill. It is eminently fair and sensible. Most reasonable people will agree that the Government is playing catch-up and is putting to right decades of neglect. As Senator Clune and others mentioned, ours is a Victorian infrastructure. To cite a phrase from the politics of another era, not NewERA, when the country was awash with money, I am sometimes bewildered as to what we did with it. We had a great opportunity to invest in strategic infrastructure, the most basic form of which is water, yet we still have counties that need to issue boil notices and there are leaks of up to 40% in the system. This is shameful. In recent weeks, water was rationed in the capital city. How embarrassing was it that thousands of investors and guests who came to this city for the Web Summit could not even have cups of coffee or showers before leaving their hotel rooms? I am intrigued that anyone would criticise the Minister of State for trying to right these issues.
Everyone knows that families are under a heavy burden. No one likes to see another bill coming through the letter box. As we have seen with the property tax and other charges, most reasonable people are willing pay a fair price for a fair service. They want to know that the water is safe and reliable. I do not know what the charge will be, but there will be an allocation per household and people who use more will pay more. Industry, commerce and farmers already pay for the water they use. We want people to take the next step with us down the road and pay a modest charge of perhaps €1 per day for all of the water their households need. That is not unreasonable.
It would be inconsistent of us to ask people to pay for water without fixing the leaks or building the necessary infrastructure. I might sound like a broken record, but I urge the Minister of State to build the Garryhinch reservoir once and for all. Bord na Móna has the plan and is ready to apply for planning permission. It would cost €540 million and Bord na Móna has secured investment capital. It would be a significant economic stimulus, creating 1,000 construction jobs over a five-year period and securing a water supply for the entire Leinster region for generations to come.
I am fascinated by some of the spurious arguments being made in this debate. It is as if water metering was a new phenomenon. We are the only country in Europe that does not have a water charge. We must broaden the tax base without putting all taxes on people's incomes. People claim that apartments cannot be water metered. Half of Europe lives in apartment blocks. Under the cupboard in each of those apartments are gas and water meters. We are not looking to reinvent the wheel. A small bit of cop-on would go a long way.
Recently, I heard worrying commentary from senior officials and engineers at Dublin City Council. They claimed that there would be water rationing and shortages in the Leinster region for the next ten years. They must be joking. The Government cannot allow this situation to persist. We must act with expediency and urgency. I seek a reassurance from the Minister of State that we will press ahead with ensuring a safe and sustainable supply of water.
I commend the Minister of State on the measures in the Bill that recognise and respect the contribution that local authority workers continue to make to the provision and reliability of our water services. Local authorities have done a great job over the years and it is important that we not lose the local knowledge and expertise that their workers bring to the table.
I am pleased that we are finally moving towards enabling Irish Water to operate. A single utility in a small country can ensure that we have a modern, reliable and safe supply of water. I am happy that the Government decided it would be a public utility. We have seen what happens when important infrastructure and utilities are privatised, for example, Eircom.
We have an appalling situation in rural regions which still do not have adequate broadband facilities. That is because the private sector seeks profit above providing a service. Members of this House who argued that we should have put Irish Water out for tender were wrong. It is important that the company is retained in public ownership for the benefit of the economy and the community at large. We are making great progress at last and people will pay water charges providing they see that the service is safe, secure and sustainable. In addition, the money raised must go back into the infrastructure. We cannot wait extra years before starting work on the Garryhinch reservoir at Portarlington, which is the most important piece of infrastructure in this water network and will ensure an adequate water supply. It would be absurd to ration water in Dublin while charging householders for it. People would not have confidence in us if that happened. It would undermine the Government's credibility and the process of establishing Irish Water because people will ask why they should pay for water when they cannot be sure of supplies. The Garryhinch reservoir must be built.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit anseo inniu. This is possibly one of the most important pieces of legislation that we are likely to debate in this House. After all, water is synonymous with life. One need only look at the array of glasses here and it also seems that water is important to democracy. That is why we must tease out all the issues that are coming before us. Nobody doubts the amount of work that has gone into the establishment of Irish Water. We are all prepared to admit up front that things are not as they should be. Whatever crises we had in the past, we may even have a worse one in the future. Nobody would ever thank us if we found we could not function in the midst of a drought. A national audit needs to be completed as well as the national network. I understand that the audit has not yet been completed so perhaps the Minister of State can explain that. Such an audit is vital to putting our minds at ease about any questions that might arise in this regard.
I listened to Senator Landy's contribution and I fully agree with him that it is vital to maintain the network that is already established, along with the existing expertise. Local input and responsibility are important because one can obtain answers when questions arise. It is important for people's well-being.
I have often questioned the concept of centralising the whole health system in the HSE. Why do we have so many debates on the HSE? With the old health boards one could always contact somebody if there was a life or death issue in the community. We have often seen cases of people awaiting heart surgery, yet nobody is taking account of them. I do not know how many Senators have direct lines to the HSE but I certainly do not. I can never find out who is responsible for what or get answers to questions, yet people's lives are at stake. I know of a case where a person died waiting for heart surgery. That is the result of centralising because what emerges is not a better system. That is quite clear. I accept that many new medical procedures have come about that did not exist years ago but I do not think the HSE has proved to be better than the health boards which preceded it.
Local authorities are democratically responsible, which is important. When local councillors finish their meetings, they may be questioned by members of the public outside who hold them to account. In dealing with water issues, I could go to the town sergeant in Cashel. I had his phone number and could ring him to explain if a problem arose, such as a leak. One had a contact and somebody responded almost straight away. Now we will have 500 people at the top and 400 other outreaches, but it is not a proven system. I accept that we must try it but we should be careful. Mr. John Tierney is one of the finest public officials one could hope to have. He has a proven track record, apart from the fact that he is a good Tipperary man.
North Tipperary.
We are all from Tipperary. If we are taking away that immediate contact we had when there was a problem, I would like to think that this has been teased out. We can all draw on our local experience. I know of cases where at 15 minutes' notice the water supply could be cut off to one part of a town and delivered to another part. I want to be assured that whatever new system is introduced, somebody will take responsibility for it. We should not have to table questions in the Dáil or Seanad, but have a direct line to obtain information. I am a little worried about this. I accept that we have to make progress with the existing difficulties, but I cannot understand why we did not keep local authorities in the equation, given their experience and local knowledge. They should have been kept in the equation in a meaningful and authoritative way, so they could have responded.
I do not have a problem with water charges and believe that those who can pay should pay. The bottom line is as simple as that. I do not think we can continue to deliver services unless that is the case. I have an old-fashioned view on this, although economists and others will say that it does not work. I cannot understand why we did not have a clear increase in taxation - be it 2%, 3% or 4% - and get rid of the septic tank, water and household charges. In that way, if it was based on direct taxation or PAYE, only those who are able to pay would be paying. The argument against it is that it interferes with employment, but I do not accept that because it is a tax, whether direct or indirect.
A charge of between €100 and €300 has been mentioned for households, which is a fairly big gap. At the end of the day, water is life, although I do not mean uisce beatha. We must therefore ensure that those who cannot afford it will not be charged, or at least that they will not be made to cut back on using water to the detriment of family hygiene and general cleanliness. These issues must be considered. I am worried that some people may fall within the charging remit but will not be able to afford such an extra charge. I am not opposed to progress and am certainly not opposed to charges, but we need to have further debate as well as fine tuning the system. This is not the answer to all the problems, which is why we should tease out every issue while we have an opportunity to do so before the measure is implemented.
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, for attending the House for the debate on this important Bill. Man cannot live on bread alone and, in the past, prisoners at their lowest ebb in solitary confinement lived on bread and water. One cannot live without water but it is one of the dearest commodities that our local authorities supply. Some 10% of Kilkenny County Council's budget is used to treat water coming into households or for treating wastewater afterwards. It is a major expenditure which I presume applies to every other local authority.
I was delighted to hear that Senator Ó Murchú is not against the charge, but he then let himself down by stating that it should be a direct charge in tax.
The Government committed in its programme for Government to not increasing income tax. The reason for this is that if one increases taxes on income people it may not pay people to continue in employment. Some 1,200 jobs per month are being created, which is a great achievement for the Government. Getting people back to work is important in the context of recovery of the economy.
Senator Ó Clochartaigh might refer his speech to his Sinn Féin colleagues in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Water charges are incorporated into the property tax applicable in the North. In some cases, people are paying up to £1,200 per annum in this regard.
Senator O'Neill has his facts wrong again. He is not comparing like with like.
I do not. I spoke recently to a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly when in this House who lives in a 2,000 sq. ft. three-bedroom bungalow in respect of which she pays £1,500 per annum in respect of waste collection, water charges and the household charge. That is a great deal more than what is being charged by the Irish Government.
It is not a water charge.
Senator Ó Domhnaill stated that he is opposed to water metering. Ireland is now the only country in Europe that does not charge for water, which I am sure amazes people in Europe. As stated by Senator Whelan, the people who attended the conference mentioned were amazed to hear that we often have to ration water or issue notices to boil water.
The document from which Senator Ó Domhnaill read a great deal also states that the renewed programme for Government issued by the previous Government, of which Senator Ó Domhnaill's party was part, in October 2009 committed that Administration to introducing charges for treated water use based on a system whereby households would be allocated a free basic allowance and charged only for water use in excess of this allowance. In other words, when Fianna Fáil was in government it favoured the introduction of water charges. It has since done a U-turn on this issue and the introduction of a property tax, the introduction of which it favoured when in government.
Currently our water services are administered by 34 local authorities. It is important that Irish Water take charge of this responsibility. Operation of our water services is costing us €1.2 billion per annum, €715 million of which goes on operational costs and €500 million of which goes on capital costs. The proposed water charges will yield only €200 million, which leaves a shortfall of €1 billion. The Government must in terms of water charges take in at least €500 million. As pointed out by everybody who contributed to this debate thus far, our infrastructure is way out of date. Our pipes were installed during the 19th century. Many are now leaking. In some counties, including Kilkenny, water wastage is approximately 50%. It is important we invest in this infrastructure. However, the Government cannot do so unless it takes in the necessary money. Water is a commodity we cannot do without. Many people purchase bottled water in public houses and supermarkets. The quality of the water coming out of the taps in most areas in this country is of better quality than that bottled water.
I welcome that under section 16(8), Irish Water will not be permitted to disconnect water supplies. As I said earlier, water is an essential commodity. Section 17(10) provides that for the purposes of calculating a charge under section 16, the amount of wastewater discharged from a premises is deemed to be equal to the amount of water supplied to that premises unless Irish Water and the customer agree otherwise. It is ridiculous that we are using treated water in toilet facilities, washing machines and so on. I hope that the Government will introduce a grant system in respect of rain water harvesting and so on. This would result in a reduction in the amount of treated water being used in toilet facilities and so on. I would prefer if households were not expected to pay for wastewater treatment. Currently, a double charge is imposed on businesses in respect of water-in and water-out. I do not believe the Government should consider the introduction of water-out charges for people whose water comes from a main sewerage system.
It is important we put in place a centralised system. As has been pointed out, since the introduction of metering, water usage in the UK has decreased by 15%. People respect what they have to pay for. The problem here is that we have become a country of entitlement, with everybody thinking they are entitled to everything free of charge. We have now had our hand forced by the troika in terms of the introduction of a property tax and water charges. It is important people pay for services provided. Reference was made earlier to the water charges in Kildare being €1.70 per cu. m. and in Wicklow being €3.04 per cu. m. Will an average price apply across the country? It is important for business sake that charges are equalised. Businesses will not want to locate in areas where water charges are high.
If leaks are addressed and better efficiencies are achieved, the cost to the consumer will reduce further. If everybody is paying, businesses may not have to pay as much. It is important to support businesses and jobs. Without a proper water system we will not be successful in attracting companies and thus jobs into this country. I will give an example. A few years ago Kilkenny County Council, with the assistance of the IDA, sank major wells of clean water near Belview Port, which currently supplies some parts of the city of Kilkenny with water and will in the future supply the new Glanbia plant being constructed in Belview. This is one of the biggest investments ever made by an Irish company in this country. The availability of a clean supply of water enabled the construction by Glanbia of its major milk processing plant on the Waterford border. Investments can only be achieved if we are realistic.
I support the passage of this Bill through the Houses. As I said earlier, everybody should pay for essential services such as water.
I welcome the Water Services (No. 2) Bill, which paves the way for the fundamental reform of water services delivery in this country, which services currently cost more than €1 billion per annum. Ensuring greater security of quality water supply for the Irish people and the economy is of paramount importance. Having a national public utility providing water services and infrastructure and a sustainable funding model will, I expect, bring an end to the situations we witnessed in Galway some years ago and in Dublin recently.
There is no doubt but that water is one of the most important commodities on earth. It is only when water is rationed or the supply is cut off for various reasons that we realise its importance. This Bill provides for the transfer of water services functions from local authorities to Irish Water. I join with other Senators in paying tribute to the many local authority workers and engineers throughout the country who have worked diligently to provide an adequate and safe supply of water to Irish people. In many local authorities this has been achieved despite paltry investment in water services infrastructure and a lack of funding by the State in this infrastructure.
I recall Ministers saying during the Celtic tiger years that we were so awash with money they were looking for ways and means to spend it. Investment at that time in water infrastructure would have been a prudent and beneficial investment for all. However, such investment brought no votes and the benefits that might accrue were not visible to the electorate. This is possibly the reason we have been bereft of investment in this infrastructure, in particular over the past 20 years.
I listened to Senator Walsh kick off this debate. I never cease to be amazed at the neck of some members of Fianna Fáil in suggesting that the Labour Party has rowed back on its promise to oppose the introduction of water charges.
The Labour Party and all other parties were left with no option after Fianna Fáil signed up to these charges in the bailout programme. This matter of fact is on record and it simply is not true for anyone to say otherwise.
While the Bill contains many provisions, obviously people will hone in on the charging for water. Despite the many other aspects of the Bill, people will focus on that and it is natural that they would do so because people unquestionably are hard pressed. The people of middle Ireland are hard pressed with bills and when one talks about the economy picking up and so on, these people do not see that at present. They see this measure as another bill that will come in the door but hopefully, this will change in the future.
I note that under section 17, Irish Water will be required to prepare a water charges plan, setting out details of its tariffs and related matters, including payment methods. Moreover, these plans, including tariffs, will be subject to the approval of the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER. When will these plans be put before Members? The Government should have a say in this regard, apart from the regulator, because I have doubts in respect of regulators. There is a need to consider the work of regulators and some appraisal should be done regarding the regulators in place at present. Indeed, someone should be looking after the supervision in this regard as well. It is the same as anything else in that one cannot have people policing themselves and the regulator will deal with the information it gets from Irish Water. This should be examined carefully by the Government before it goes to the regulator.
I understand that work is being progressed on the approach to the proposed free allowance and on affordability measures that will be introduced by the Government to ameliorate the impact of water charges on domestic customers. When is it proposed to announce such allowances and to have in place an estimate of the type of charges? I acknowledge that an inventory is being carried out at present by local authorities, feeding into Irish Water. When will people get an idea as to what they will be charged for their water and on what quantity of water will be provided in a free allowance? What other mechanisms will be put in place to ameliorate the impact in the case of large families and so on? The Minister of State might revert to Members on these questions because this is what people want to know. They wish to know how much it will cost, how much water will be provided free as an allowance, what they will be obliged to pay for the rest of it and what mechanisms for payment will be available. I am glad of the provision that Irish Water will not cut off the supply completely if people do not pay, but what mechanisms will be available to the company? Will it be the same as for Bord Gáis or the ESB if people do not pay their bills, where they are cut off? Will the company go to court or will a mechanism be put in place to collect the money through Revenue, social welfare payments, pay packets or whatever, in the event of people not paying this charge? These are the type of questions that are being asked on the ground and perhaps the Minister of State might provide Members with some answers today.
Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil le gach Seanadóir a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo. Measaim go raibh díospóireacht oscailte againn. Bhí tuairimí á nochtadh ar ghach taobh den Teach agus tá an aidhm céanna ag an chuid is mó dínn ar a lán ábhar. Tuigim, áfach, go bhfuil ceist spesialta ag an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh faoi seo. Caithfidh mé caint faoi sin níos déanaí.
This has been an important, open and frank debate. I welcome the comments from all Members in what was a constructive and informative debate. It is the right way to conduct a proper debate and this House comes into its own in such situations, where the political stuff is kept to a minimum but the facts, questions and realities that are brought to me and that I am learning from Members are extremely important.
If I may, I will deal with the contributions in the order in which they were made. Senator Walsh spoke of an expensive quango with huge salaries. The first point to note is that the salary of the chief executive is a matter of public record. The entire reason there will be charges from the outset is because of the troika agreement signed by Fianna Fáil. As the Oireachtas notes indicate, water charges were originally meant to be in place by 2011-12. This Government has negotiated a change in that they will not commence until the beginning of 2015. A question regarding different councils was raised by Senator Walsh and other Members, that is, the difference between Kildare, Kerry, Wicklow or whatever. At present, different counties have different commercial charges but notwithstanding that, the average charge for water in Ireland is approximately €2.50 per 1,000 litres. In other words, for every bottle of Ballygowan or whatever for which one pays €2.50 in a pub, the State will supply 1,000 litres of water, so there is great value for water in Ireland at present. Therefore, I believe we are being cost-efficient in its production but greater efficiency must be achieved.
As for the question of consultants raised by Senator Walsh as to how much they will cost and who they are, the key point is that any cost placed on the cost of water will be imposed by the regulator and such costs must be placed there transparently. In other words, the regulator will neither be able nor will wish to add in costs that are not reasonable, not fair or which are not computed efficiently, fairly and practically. Consequently, there is no question of there being hidden costs in respect of the transparency of how the regulator will make its decision. While no one mentioned it - perhaps Members were unaware - last Friday, the regulator concluded a consultative period with the public. It was a publicly advertised document on its website, advertised in the national press, on how the company would go about charging and what would be the process, without going into the nitty-gritty of the actual charges themselves, as well as how that will work. I suggest Members might wish to access the CER website and read that document. Following this consultative period, the Government will be informed by 22 December as to what will be the advice the regulator will give to the Government in respect of the consultation period, which I believe to be important.
A question was raised about how the commission will limit the level of charges that Irish Water can charge, which is the point I am making. The commission will determine the structure of domestic water tariffs and take account of the Government's pricing framework. An issue raised by many Members pertained to what will be the free allowance and to the level of social supports. I revert to the point made by Senator Ó Clochartaigh about water poverty, which is a very important consideration in my reflection on these issues. Where a family is deemed to be in water poverty - I believe the definition is that the cost is greater than 3% of its income - then supports must be in place and this will be the case. It is both important that everyone will get a free allowance and that the question of affordability is a key and critical part of everything that will happen. It is important that there is transparency and accountability in this regard.
Senator Clune raised the question of the role of the regulator and makes an important point about Bord Gáis customer relations and how they will relate to one another. At present, on the basis of my personal experience, I believe Bord Gáis does an excellent job in customer relations. It has an 1850 number that one calls, just like the ESB, which I also believe to be fantastic, in terms of the national content of the messages that come to one locally. I believe the same will be true with the call centre but I wish to make the point clearly that the commitment of Uisce Éireann is that each councillor in the country will have a contact number in his or her locality who will be responsible to that councillor for all the information needed. Moreover and importantly, Members will be able to pass on such information to them via that communication channel as well. There will be no change in that regard and it is a key and core element.
I understand Uisce Éireann has appointed regional communicators who will deal specifically with elected members and with councils. I cannot over-emphasise that point and its importance.
Senator David Norris raised the issue of the free allowance and asked how people who cannot afford to pay will be supported. At the Cabinet sub-committee on economic infrastructure we agreed that an interdepartmental working group will advise the Government on the appropriate methods for addressing water poverty. The group, which includes representatives from the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Social Protection, the Taoiseach, Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, is tasked with identifying the groups likely to face affordability issues, examining the appropriate mechanisms to address these issues, taking account of the broader social policy agenda, including systems integration and labour activation, preparing a high level action plan and identifying costs. In recent weeks the group has looked at a range of options for addressing affordability. To fully inform its work, it has met a wide range of stakeholders. The group expects to report to Government before the end of the year. The agreed approach to affordability issues will be reflected in a charging structure established by the regulator. That is a critical part of the process.
Senator Norris made a point about reducing water. If a meter is installed, water wastage and unaccounted for water on the customer's side goes down. In Ballycroy, County Mayo, a fantastic group water scheme is in place which involves young people in schools. That scheme has reduced water consumption by more than 70% through proactive community measures, part of which has been metering. Senator Norris asked how one deals with a person who is sick and whose water supply is restricted. That is an important issue. It is proper that there would be proportionate action in terms of restriction of water, particularly if a person can afford to pay. If a person is unwell, that is an entirely different matter.
The question of Georgian pavements, heritage streets and the historic infrastructure of towns and cities was raised in terms of metering. That is a very important point. I will ask Uisce Éireann to respond directly on that issue. It is right and proper that there would be appropriate metering. NewERA, an entity which is responsible to the Minister for Finance, advises the Government on all manner of issues - the purchase of State assets, issues relating to water and many others. Perhaps I will get a note to Members on the role of NewERA, which would be helpful to everybody. The level of unaccounted for water is very high and we believe that will be reduced.
Senator Deirdre Clune spoke about Cork city and county where there was not joined-up thinking, the water supply to the city was not connected to the water supply to the county, and the city suffered because its supply was interrupted. This is not about local authorities having their own little quango and running their 34 water services. It is about joined-up thinking, regional development, planning and so on all joined together, which is not the case at present. I agree with the Senator that 42% of water is wasted nationally, which is an appalling waste. The idea is to have a constructive plan on how to deal with water wastage in order that when people are asked to pay, they will be given the facts and will buy into it.
Senator Denis Landy raised the critical and important question of labour, the Labour Relations Commission and staff issues. It is critical that local authority staff are happy, consent to what is happening and that the agreements that have been reached are successful. There is an independent chair on the committee that deals with issues that arise. The agreement is for a period of 12 years. Senator Terry Brennan asked why it is not for a lesser period. In looking ahead, I think 12 years allows people to make career choices and it allows time for Uisce Éireann to bed in. If at the end of that period they are still in the water system, the obvious place for them to be is in Uisce Éireann, not with the local authorities because they will not handle water issues any longer. Even at that stage, as provided for in the Bill, there must be consultation, six months notice must be given and there is an opportunity for representations to be made. Nobody will be ruthlessly pushed out of business into a place to which they do not want to go. The procedure must be fair, balanced and proportionate and there must be consultation.
Many Members raised the role of the Commission for Energy Regulation. If Members were to table amendments on Committee Stage, we could provide some more information. It would help me to get the answers Senators want. The role of the CER is critical to the credibility and transparency of decision-making, how and why it is done and how one makes representations. As I understand it, the CER will propose to charge a certain amount for water and Senators will have the opportunity to debate that. I do not see why the Seanad would not have a look at it and make its own approach. I advise Members to get their messages in. It is all about making the CER accountable in a transparent way. The role of the CER in its consultative role is about sustainable, secure and reliable water, fair charging, transparency and accountability.
Senator Denis Landy asked what happens when premises cannot be metered. When conventional meter installation is not possible, alternative approaches will be considered. An estimate of the amount of water consumed and wastewater discharged will calculated by the application of a formula in the water plan. For the purposes of calculating charges, the amount of wastewater will be deemed to be equal to the amount of water supplied, unless otherwise engaged. For example, if one is in a water processing industry or activity where water is taken out and used in the manufacturing process, there will be an agreement on that issue. It will be fair and it will have to be seen as transparent. Irish Water is undertaking a review of its approach to the second phase of metering, which will include apartments. Many Members raised that issue. I agree very much with Senator John Whelan. Half of the people in Europe live in apartments, so what is the big deal? Let us find out the best way to meter apartments and let us do it fairly to ensure everyone who can have a meter has one.
Disconnection is a key issue. Nobody wants people to be cut off totally. Everybody agrees it is a human rights issue to have access to water, but we cannot have people who can afford to pay but will not getting away with blue murder. That cannot and will not happen. The code of practice and protocols will have to be put in place and will have to be clear. We will be able to discuss them in the House or the Seanad may wish to make suggestions or table amendments. I advise Members to submit their arguments to the Department and get them into the system.
Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill mentioned group water schemes. Such schemes will continue to be completely separate from Uisce Éireann. There will be no connection between them. If a group water scheme is on the public water supply, a charge is in place. Its members already pay for water. I do not know how it works in the case referred to by the Senator but I will get absolute clarity for him on what charges apply if a group water scheme is getting a public water supply.
I am not clear on the question about remote housing. If one has one's own water supply in the country, that is one's own business. If one does not discharge into a public sewer that is one's own business. If one has one's own private water supply but one discharges into a public sewer, I presume one would have to pay for the pubic sewer discharge. There will have to be total clarity, fairness and equity. I refer the Senator to the consultative document from the CER. It is important to keep one's eye on everything on that website.
My colleague, Senator Terry Brennan, has great expertise in metering of electricity and so on, and spent a lot of time looking after his constituents in a very effective way-----
I thank the Minister of State.
-----as I found out when I was canvassing in his area. Senator Brennan always got the No. 1 but he did a fantastic job. He mentioned increasing reservoir capacity in areas of rural north Louth. I will try to get an answer for the Senator on that issue. I will ask the Department to contact him. I do not know the specific issues but Irish Water is about planning for the future and ensuring adequate and proper water is available-----
And reservoir capacity.
Yes, if it has to be increased - in order that there can be increased development or to meet new industrial or other planning issues.
The question of protocols in commercial premises was raised.
Notwithstanding the Senator's views on not allowing disconnections, because under the Bill disconnections will happen, the key point is that there must an understanding and empathetic relationship between Uisce Éireann and the commercial premises so that if the cheque is coming from the sale of the goods and so on that Uisce Éireann will give them fair and reasonable time.
I did not agree with Senator Ó Clochartaigh's analysis but I am glad that he made his points. We both agree that water poverty is a key issue that must be dealt with. There must be fairness, equity and support for the families who have low incomes and very high water usage. There is no difference between us in our efforts to resolve those issues. As far as I am aware, there is no issue on the privatisation of water. That is covered by law. I will not be a party nor will the Labour Party stand over the privatisation of the water system. The water system is a total monopoly because in a country of our size, one could not have the provinces in competition with one another to provide water services. That would not work and would be a disaster for critical infrastructure.
Notwithstanding the campaign the Senator's political party may have in this jurisdiction, the fact is that on average the cost in the North per household is £1,200 for the services which his colleagues----
For rates.
I examined that and I note there is a separate account and water charges are included in all of those accounts, but it is separately identified. They are not part of the actual charge but they are part of the costs. Senator Ó Clochartaigh can dance around it whatever way he likes, the facts are it is a con job that he is trying to put on the electorate.
That is a good answer.
Conor Murphy would disagree.
If Deputy Gerry Adams is in the Ulster Bank putting his money in or taking it out, whatever house he goes home to at night, he is paying in the North when he is living there.
We will see that one out.
In the North.
If his neighbour in the North is building an extension, or even a shed, they have to pay extra for that as well. Let us have truth and reality here.
I will deal with that on Committee Stage.
We are the only country in the OECD that does not charge for water. That deals with most of the points raised by Senator Ó Clochartaigh.
I will now respond to Senator Whelan. We must face the reality that we have a Victorian infrastructure. There are cases where people must boil all water. Senator Cummins mentioned that some years ago the people of Galway had no potable water for six months because it was contaminated by E.coli bacteria. The only way we will have proper and safe water is by making the investment. In respect of Garryhinch, I could not agree more with Senator Whelan and I suggest the Oireachtas Committee should invite Bord na Móna to discuss the proposal. There is a deficit of knowledge about what is happening. On one side of the country, people want Garryhinch and on the other side they do not want it. We need to have a debate on Garryhinch. I think both communities would benefit from examining the facts.
The question of meeting the water requirements for Dublin is very important. Senator Ó Murchú raised the audit of infrastructure. I understand the book value of the audit is €11 billion, and is believed to be the book value of the assets of the water infrastructure nationally, but that has not been finally totted up. That is the expectation. We would not underestimate the massive task ahead. While the legislation allows for the transfer of assets on 1 January, that will not be the way it happens because due diligence has to be done. I raised a question about social infrastructure and some assets. It is quite complex. The Minister must sign off on each of them. There will be no uisce faoi thalamh. The Senator also made the point about contacts with local representatives. I could not agree more with him and I am concerned that the public is fully engaged in all of the conservation issues. I want to see more of that engagement from Irish Water. I welcome the fact that it has placed advertisements in the national media.
Senator O'Neill made a very good case as well. I agree with the points he made on Sinn Féin and transfers of accountability. He also mentioned the "Boil Notice". I made the point earlier that one bottle of water costs €2.50 but for the same amount one will get 1,000 litres from the public water supply. That is great value for money. The quality of the water that Glanbia uses means it can stand over the significant investment in its development.
I have already referred to the contribution of Senator Maurice Cummins who raised the health issues in regard to the water in Galway and the supply issue in Dublin. He also raised the issue of collection of water charges by Revenue. It is not proposed that Revenue will collect the money.
The water services plans must be transparent and open to comment by the public. The local authorities will obviously have a major input as to what they think should be happening. There must be buy in to local developments plans, local area plans, county plans, regional plans. There must be joined-up thinking.
There will be transparency on the question of the free allowance and affordability of water charges.
With the indulgence of the Chair, may I ask the Minister for clarification on the dedicated call line for councillors? Will he assure us that this will not be a call centre but a direct line to an official dealing with water services, similar to the way I can call officials in the local authority?
There will be no separate national number for elected members, but local personnel will be identified who will be able tell the public representatives what is happening.
I want to talk to someone I can relate to.
It will be a person that the Senator knows personally. He or she will know who is the Senator or public representative and will be apply to supply the direct and immediate response.
I thank the Minister for his reply. That is a vital service.
I am happy to take questions. I have been told by Uisce Éireann that it is appointing communications staff who will deal specifically with elected members; that each elected member will know who they are; how to contact them and that the database will be very clear and transparent.
I urge Members to table amendments because Committee Stage will be taken shortly although I am not sure of the date. We will debate all the amendments as I have no problem staying here all night to do so. It is very important to get the legislation right. Let us forget our political differences, this is more significant than setting up the ESB. Uisce Éireann-Irish Water is a major national undertaking. We will only get it right if we all work together and take the best of all the ideas from every side of the House to build a sustainable future for everybody, so that the young people sitting in the Visitors Gallery will have jobs in the future no matter where they live. We need to ensure that all towns have the capacity to supply water to industry and that the health of the population is improved because there is less contamination of water by E.coli. This is the only way to achieve that.
Question put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 26; Níl, 15.
Tá
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Clune, Deirdre.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D'Arcy, Jim.
- Gilroy, John.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Henry, Imelda.
- Higgins, Lorraine.
- Kelly, John.
- Landy, Denis.
- Moran, Mary.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
- O'Keeffe, Susan.
- O'Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- Whelan, John.
Níl
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Cullinane, David.
- Daly, Mark.
- Leyden, Terry.
- MacSharry, Marc.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Norris, David.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Sullivan, Ned.
- Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
- Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
- Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
- Power, Averil.
- Reilly, Kathryn.
- Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson.
Question declared carried.
When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?
Next Tuesday.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 10 December 2013.
Sitting suspended at 3 p.m. and resumed at 5 p.m.