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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Apr 2014

Higher Education and Research (Consolidation and Improvement) Bill 2014: Second Stage

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, Deputy Ciarán Cannon. Unfortunately, the last time we were seated together was at the funeral of former Deputy Nicky McFadden in Athlone last week. It is a pleasure to welcome the Minister of State and thank those who helped in preparing this Bill, including Dr. Charles Larkin, Ms Ursula Ní Choill, the staff of the Bills Office, the Cathaoirleach, the Leader and their assistants. A Bill does not just walk in here; it requires the work of a lot of people. I acknowledge my debt to them all.

Most famously associated with scholarship and later with universities are the founder of University College Dublin, John Henry Newman, and his seminal work The Idea of a University, which is widely quoted when people address this topic. There are two quotes I wish to put before the House, the first of which is, "to live is to change, and to be perfect is to have changed often." We realise there is a lot of thought on the issue we face today. The other quote is: “if we insist upon being as sure as is conceivable [...] we must be content to creep along the ground, and can never soar." We recognise we are addressing problems with at least two Bills coming from the Minister of State's Department and by way of the thoughts of the House. We are addressing matters such as the cost base, demoralisation and mistakes made in the United Kingdom. Many of our academic colleagues are seriously concerned about that. There is a need to preserve academic values, make students a priority and tackle excess costs where they arise. The template for the legislation is the 1997 Act. We are concerned about the growth of the budget and the maximisation of bureaucracy, regardless of outputs and the demoralisation problem we face.

There is a problem concerning financial accountability. The file from the Comptroller and Auditor General, reporting on universities, their costings and misallocations, etc., must be considered. There are reports from September 2010 and 2012. Very little evidence of outputs was found after a strategic investment plan worth €146 million. There was evidence of substantial overpayments of over €8 million to a small number of senior academics as recently as the time of the publication of the report in February 2012.

The Comptroller and Auditor General is a major assistant in the operation of the Parliament and he is an officer under the Constitution. We must respond to the reports. We must ensure financial accountability and the probity of higher education and research institutions are preserved, while at the same time enshrining the institutions' independence and that of their staff.

The Higher Education Authority, HEA, which we are seeking to reform dates from 1971. It acts as a regulator, advocate and funder for the higher education sector and most of the research sector. Life has evolved, however, and the model it is using is inconsistent with the legislation, practices and structures in continental Europe. The conflict is that the original remit of the authority did not include a clear requirement for cost-benefit analysis, capital project appraisal, demographic demand projection, economic impact studies and manpower requirements.

We seek to bring into existence a new body, a higher education and research grants committee, using existing resources to take over the funding remit of the HEA and provide a direct link between the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. When all of us came to the House after the economic collapse in 2008, we recognised the importance of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We want the strictest controls over the finances and as few controls as possible over autonomy and intellectual activity. Involving the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is essential, just as it is essential to the Government's entire reform agenda. The Department responsible for transport would like to spend the entire GDP on transport projects but there has to be a counterweight. The body proposed is appropriate in this regard in the context of higher education. It is modelled on the UK University Grants Committee which had a clear link to the Treasury. The proposed committee would report to the Minister for Education and Skills. It would have a membership of ten, with five members nominated by the Minister for Education and Skills and five by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.

We need to tackle the reports because there are so many pages that indicate the Comptroller and Auditor General had to investigate the excessive cost base.

That has had the effect of undermining the academic autonomy of the universities, which runs totally against the reason we have universities, as sources of diverse views, opinions and debate.

We involve the Comptroller and Auditor General and he plays an important role. One often wishes that he did not come into play until after the mistakes had been made, but if we can involve the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, perhaps we can bring a system into financial transparency and autonomy. This will mean autonomy and academic freedom. The objectives of academic freedom for the sector, the institution and the individual academic are enshrined in legislation. Ireland has one of the most progressive declarations of academic freedom in Europe and the objective of the exercise is to protect the sector, as well as individuals. Since 1997, there have been worrying moves towards turning higher education into a purely instrumentalist approach, where the Exchequer subsidises the creation of workers for the multinational sector and conjures up bright green nano bots that will add more to GNP than Google or an oil well. While it is important to ensure graduates are able to engage successfully with the labour market, the instrumental approach has undermined the civic, cultural and intellectual aims of higher education and research institutions in the island. This is a problem of demoralisation in the universities. That is why we are trying to separate the finance aspect. The institutes should have the utmost probity and be absolutely above board. After this, we should give freedom to people to have, for example, five people who see global warming as a serious problem debating five others who do not see it as a serious problem. That is not divisiveness but what universities should always do.

In economics, the concept of tenure was devised by the founding fathers of the American Economic Association when people were pressurised to stop publishing and lecturing in the late 19th century. Academic freedom and tenure allows people like Professor Morgan Kelly to speak truth to power where groupthink dominates. We tried to correct that, which is the result of the Cahill v. Dublin City University case. One of the earliest Irish members of the American Economic Association is more famous as a poet but was a distinguished economist, namely, John Kells Ingram, author of Who Fears to Speak of '98?. An eminent international economist, he was a nationalist poet working in the Unionist Trinity College Dublin. That was the kind of freedom of expression that was allowed and which we want to enshrine here. We want to make universities realise that the human capital of the university is the staff, with diverse views, opinions and contrast of ideas. In the words of J.M. Keynes, in the end it is ideas, for good or ill, that are powerful much more so than the power of vested interests.

I mentioned Professor Morgan Kelly as a dissident and someone not subject to groupthink. He might not have been hired by the Department of Finance, but it was absolutely vital for the country that he was hired by UCD. I am delighted he was my student at one stage. That is what universities must do; they are not part of the Civil Service. That is what we are trying to protect in the Bill.

We should be aware of the demoralisation in the UK and Australian systems. We will be attempting to get better value for money and to restore morale. That is the purpose of legislation. It is important that the interest groups and the pressure groups that have traditionally dominated the area have a response from the Parliament. I am particularly keen that university Senators should play a role in assisting the Minister in the task of reform.

I am strongly supportive of Senator Sean D. Barrett's Bill. The presence of people like him in these Houses should be a lesson to us all. It says something about the way politics in general esteems expertise and the way our society esteems expertise that there have been so few people with his qualifications in positions of political authority in a country that has been undone by a lack of economic expertise. When one looks at where we place academic achievement, original research and intellectual expertise in the firmament of importance, on the night of the bank guarantee there was not one PhD economist working in a front-line capacity in the Department of Finance. All of these decisions were being taken by people who did not have that level of doctoral expertise on the Government side or on the side of officialdom. I am not sure what expertise the bankers brought in that night. There was a colossal lacuna of available expertise.

Another area of generally regarded dysfunction is the health service. One of the key problems in our health service is the lack of academic leadership. Our service has been intensely managed and underled. The health service has more medical schools per head of population than any other country in the Western world, yet, paradoxically, fewer doctors. I do not know how we manage to achieve that unique constellation of attributes. We have fewer doctors in career level posts and our six medical schools between them have fewer than 100 consultant-level clinician researcher academics in the full-time employ of the universities. I believe the figure is 60 between six schools, while Harvard Medical School has 1,500 such people. There is clearly something wrong with the way we structure academia in this country.

I hope the Bill proposed by Senator Sean D.Barrett, in spirit and in the letter of what it sets out to achieve, will be largely accepted and will lead to a fundamental reform of how we do this particular bit of national business. I hope it will create a regulatory environment that will enable policymakers to be assured of academic independence, freedom, financial accountability and financial probity. In the structural changes it makes to the HEA and the institution of the new higher education research grants committee, it will give us the appropriate division of responsibility. There is always a tendency in small countries to try to bring multiple areas of responsibility, where conflicts of interest exist, into one unitary structure. The Senator has bravely and correctly attempted to remedy this by identifying the need for separate structures to look after academic oversight, academic leadership and the more hard-edged business of financial accountability. It will, because it separates these two functions, give us a focus on the economic appraisal of expenditure by the sector. I am the first to admit that, left alone, academics can be well capable of drifting off into the ether and the clouds of impracticality when deciding how to spend other people's money. It is a good idea that there will be twin demands of academic rigour and financial accountability.

I hope the Bill will also deal with the terrible problem alluded to by Senator Sean D. Barrett of an extraordinary imbalance in the way we grant lifelong, unshakeable tenure to people who work in so many areas of the public sector, who cannot be fired except at the point of a court case, and give such absolute thin ice conditions of employment to highly qualified people who work in academia. I deal with large numbers of full-time public servants on the administrative side who have lifelong jobs and great job security. Most of them do a very honest day's work and try to do their work. I also deal with unbelievably brilliant, accomplished, mainly young people - often women - who have PhDs and several years of postdoctoral experience. They are living from one six month period to the next, wondering when they will get another research grant or whether, at the whim of people whose vanity research project is satisfied by their activities, they have a job to go to.

One cannot build a proper university and academic research centre unless these underpinnings are correct. I hope, with the new division of labour and responsibilities proposed by Senator Sean D. Barrett, one group will be focused on academic excellence as a main job. As a result we will see the natural development of the kind of structures that are in place everywhere else in the world.

It cannot have escaped attention - I do not say this with disrespect towards any institutions - that the institutions which have achieved top 100 status in international university rankings have dropped. Moreover, the only university in the top 50 dropped out. This should tell us something. An extraordinary product comes from our universities in well educated, smart young people who do extraordinarily well competitively. Having returned to the sector for the past 21 years, and having worked in the sector in two other jurisdictions before I came home, one sometimes wonders if this is despite, rather than because of, the institutions we have set up. There are few faculties and research is poorly funded but the one extraordinary human asset is the very bright young people who are motivated and determined to get out on the other side. This often adds a bit of smokescreen to the deficiencies of the third level sector.

We must get this right. There has not been a serious attempt to reform the sector for a long time and Senator Sean D. Barrett deserves much credit for trying to do so. I hope most of the Bill will ultimately be accepted by the Government and it can be seen as the beginning of a new process of renewal for third level education and research in this country.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach. I congratulate Senator Sean D. Barrett on bringing forward this Bill and all the thought he has put into it. The Minister has introduced many reforming Bills in his three years in office and in time, they will have an enormous impact on education and training across a range of areas. With third level education, the Minister has engaged in wide consultation and review of the entire sector, with a view to further enhancing the already excellent sector, including the institutes of technology and universities. Senator John Crown has referred to the fact that we are not top of the pops any more, as we have no universities in the world's top 50. The quality of teaching and learning in our institutions is a concern, and we must consider how well educated are our young people when they must fit the modern world. This is relevant to our new training centres, further education institutions, institutes of technology, universities and other third level training institutions.

As I indicated, Senator Sean D. Barrett's Bill is very welcome and such is the research and rational thinking evident in his work that it can only contribute greatly to the whole debate. We will not oppose the Bill on Second Stage.

We will support its passage to Committee Stage. Senator Sean D. Barrett is aware that two further Bills are being prepared, the technological universities Bill and the higher education governance Bill, and they will probably deal with much of what the Senator has raised.

Senator Sean D. Barrett has outlined the purpose of the Bill which may be worth repeating. It is to do the following: create a more modern approach to public expenditure management for funding higher education; introduce a single regulatory authority; and address the problems created by the Cahill v. Dublin City University case. I am a proponent of academic freedom and welcome the frequent contributions of Professor Morgan Kelly and others, including Senator Sean D. Barrett, in this regard. The Bill also seeks more effective governing authorities, an aspiration with which I agree. I know that a number of institute and university boards are seeking to be more effective and that some are being resisted; therefore, I hope everybody in these colleges will co-operate to bring about more effective governance and accountability. The average income of each institute of technology is €50 million, of which €40 million goes on wages. There is €10 million to be managed in each case, a considerable sum; therefore, we need value for money.

The role of higher education has never been more important. Our future will be built on it and we must generate a workforce of motivated people who are adaptable and flexible, a generation of innovative thinkers who will have many jobs and careers over their lives. The national strategy for higher education sets out directions for change aimed at providing for this. As part of the strategy for higher education and governance reform, we are consolidating our institutional system from 39 institutions to 25. My local college is Dundalk Institute of Technology and I was a member of its governing body for nine years. I retain a very close association to the college. It has signed a memorandum of understanding with Dublin City University to provide accredited level 8 and level 9 degrees, and there is other collaboration in the research area dear to Senator Sean D. Barrett's heart. Such action is being replicated throughout the country in places like St. Angela's College in Sligo and other institutions throughout the country which are forming bonds and alliances up to the formation of a university.

There is much work being done already but we need more of it. I look forward to further debate on the issue and words of wisdom of Senator Sean D. Barrett.

I welcome the Bill on consolidating and improving the higher education sector as an important contribution to the debate on the future of higher education in Ireland. It is welcome that the Government will allow the Bill to proceed to Committee Stage. It is large, complex legislation and it has clearly taken much work to consolidate the existing legislation; therefore, it would be useful to have a detailed discussion on Committee Stage.

The Bill can be divided into four: the restructuring of how State funding is awarded; the restructuring of governance; protection for academics; and the foundation of technological universities. The idea of having a single committee to oversee all State funding is good with respect to the streamlining of the process and ensuring all institutions are under the one grant-awarding body. It is very important to keep higher education institutions competing for funding, as it creates a culture of excellence, with the best departments and staff getting more grants.

It is important that be retained in this or any other new structure. One could debate whether there would be a risk that the university sector would command more funding as a result. We could tease out this issue later. When applying for research grants and other grants in the past few years the IOTs have made significant inroads in the areas of technology and bioscience in particular and this allows them to focus on the niche areas they excel at rather than trying to enter the hotly-contested fields dominated by the universities.

Direct linking between the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the HEA is a positive step because it can help ensure less waste in the sector, although I have some concerns about how social science research would do. It is important when we evaluate research proposals that we are not just thinking about the bottom line and whether research will lead to more jobs in the narrower sense. While all research must stand up to scrutiny and represent value for money, it is important to have research in arts, music and all kinds of other areas that might not fit within the narrow context of jobs and technology.

On the restructuring of governance, the Bill provides for an external chairperson of the governing authorities. That is the approach taken in corporate governance in general. Under company law there is a separate chair and CEO and there is a good logic behind that in ensuring a chairperson does not drive his or her own agenda but reflects the consensus of the meeting. TCD does not have an external chairperson. I am not sure if it is the only institution that does not. Senator Sean D. Barrett is one of the Trinity College Dublin Senators. I am not sure if he has consulted the college on this issue, but the advantages of separating the two could be discussed with the college and it would be useful to give it the opportunity to explain why it feels the election of the provost as chairperson is more suitable. I understand the logic behind setting the two and it is extremely important. I have sat as a student representative on a governing authority and one can feel at a disadvantage if the chairperson is reflecting the institutional position rather than the consensus of the meeting. It can be very difficult to argue against this.

While ten years is a very long term of office for chairpersons, it would be worth debating whether four years might be too short. The answer may be somewhere in the middle. In the University of Cambridge the vice chancellor serves for seven years while in the University of Oxford the term is four years and in Harvard University and Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, the period is indefinite. In California Institute of Technology, Caltech, the highest ranked institution in The Times higher education rankings, it is nine years. My concern about a four-year term is the fact that in institutions and governments people spend the first year or two claiming they are too new to be blamed for anything, that they are just reading themselves into the job and following through on commitments made by the previous administration. My concern is that four years would not be long enough for the chairperson of an institution to have a real, strategic investment and direction, and particularly to reflect the fact that most institutions' strategic plans are five years long. Perhaps it would make sense to align the two.

I welcome the emphasis in the governance section on equity of access. Ireland is still behind its target of 54% access to higher education across all socioeconomic backgrounds. There have been major improvements in participation in the past ten or 20 years but only 6% of total entrants come from unskilled and semi-skilled backgrounds. That has remained stagnant. More needs to be done. It is not just a third-level issue but needs to be addressed at primary and preschool levels, ensuring children from disadvantaged areas have the same opportunities as everybody else.

The Bill refers to tenure. I accept Senator John Crown's comment on the drawbacks of lifelong tenure and a better balance could be struck than the current one. Tenure is important for giving people freedom and an established position. However, in any job it is important that people are constantly open to evaluation and performance criteria. The Bill also stresses the importance of academic freedom and that is important. Ensuring academics have academic freedom is a fundamental aspect of third level education, in particular protecting the rights of people who go against the grain. Although I do not agree with everything Professor Morgan Kelly has written, his contribution to the debate is crucial. It is very important we have this protection. I have just come from a committee meeting, as has Senator Jim D'Arcy, where we were discussing the situation in Bahrain, the Royal College of Surgeons and the fact that Irish-trained medics have been fired from their positions for being critical of the government there. It is very important in a civilised, democratic society that people be free to say whatever they like, even if that goes against everybody else, and that they are protected in their positions and not discriminated against as a result.

The Bill provides for the establishment of a committee to decide whether an institute of technology has reached technological university status and also provides that an institution would not have to merge to become an institute of technology. The merger idea is a good one. We have too many higher education institutions. We have replication of courses and it would be better from a value for money point of view and from a student point of view to have sharing of courses - there is more of that - and to merge institutions and ensure we are getting the best quality of education in a smaller number of HEIs. It is important that there be clear criteria. One cannot go to a committee and have it decide whether it is impressed by an individual proposal. It needs to be thought through in terms of the overall structure, impact and vision for higher education against a clear set of criteria.

I want to mention two other issues.

The Senator is way over time.

Yes, that is fine. One issue is the importance of a student voice in higher education. The CEO of the HEA mentioned this yesterday and it is crucial and should be central to any future vision for higher education. I am concerned about allowing institutions to set their own fees because it would create a two-tier system of an expensive, elite and cheaper higher education institutions. I would not have had the opportunity of a Trinity education had that been the case. I welcome the Bill. The amount of work Senator Sean D. Barrett and his staff have put into it is phenomenal and I look forward to debating it at the education committee.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ciarán Cannon. I very much welcome Senator Sean D. Barrett's introduction of the Bill and commend him for his extensive and very comprehensive piece of work. I am delighted the Government is not opposing it. That is appropriate because while not all the substance of it is in line with Government policy, the objectives, as outlined by Senators Sean D. Barrett and Jim D'Arcy, are. The Government is planning to deal comprehensively with those objectives in the lifetime of the Government. The Bill and debate will be a very useful part of the process of discussing how best to reform higher education.

I feel very much in tune with one particular point in the explanatory memorandum, namely, the lack of a codified, single, unitary piece of legislation dealing with higher education governance. That is absolutely right. It is not unique to the higher education sector. We have a lack of codification across legislation generally, including criminal justice and a range of other areas. That is one of many reasons we need legislation like this. We have particular challenges, not only the financial situation but demographic challenges. We have very high levels of participation in higher education in Ireland. The Oireachtas Library and Research Service points out to us that 118,774 students are enrolled in the university sector and more than 80,000 in the institute of technology sector. In addition, we see a projected increase to an estimated 213,000 students by 2027. That will have implications for the capacity of the system.

We also have complex governance structures, and that is one of the many issues Senator Sean D. Barrett and the Government seek to address. Senator Jim D'Arcy has spoken about the reforming work of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, in education generally, and higher education is one of the areas which the Minister has plans in place to reform. Earlier this week the Minister spoke to the Union of Students in Ireland, USI, conference and mentioned three themes which summarise his agenda as Minister for Education and Skills. The first theme is improving quality and accountability, including reform of the junior cycle and the national literacy and numeracy strategy. The second is supporting inclusion and diversity, in particular the issue of patronage where major reforms are going on. The third is the agenda of change in the higher education and further education and training sectors, the idea of creating opportunities for Irish adults generally and it is at that level that he is talking about reform as this third theme.

Under this heading, which he emphasised in the USI speech which I recommend colleagues with an interest in this should read, he pointed out he will publish two Bills, one on technological universities which is at pre-legislative stage with an Oireachtas committee, and a Bill seeking to improve governance of the entire third level sector, which is very much in keeping with the proposals put forward by Senator Sean D. Barrett. It is very important that we examine how best to reform higher education. There is a national strategy for higher education, as the Minister stated, which provides a blueprint for developing a more coherent and efficient higher education system. The institutional mergers envisaged in the technological universities and the regional collaborative clusters proposed by the Minister should go a good deal of the way to delivering significant reforms.

With regard to the Bill, like Senator Averil Power, I disagree with the idea of universities setting their own fees under section 39. Yesterday in his speech to the USI, the Minister emphasised there would be no increase in the student registration charge above that which he already indicated. I wonder whether the structures proposed by Senator Sean D. Barrett, with which I agree, might be seen as Trinity structures being rolled out to other institutions, such as the division between the academic council and the governing authority. I believe this is an excellent idea but it might not work well in every institution. Senator Averil Power also raised the issue of the provost or chief officer of a university only being in place for four years or up to eight years if renewed. I wonder whether five years would be more appropriate. However, these are all details.

The Bill draws out three themes, namely, restructuring, rehiring and research. Restructuring is the bête noire of anyone working in the third level sector as Senators Sean D.Barrett, David Norris, John Crown and I well know. I have had a long association with Trinity College Dublin and restructuring has always been on the agenda there and in other universities. UCC went through a very controversial restructuring process some years ago. We have seen issues raised with regard to semesterisation, the abolition of faculties and rebranding initiatives such as that under way in Trinity College Dublin. All of these mark the third level sector institutions as always going through restructuring. It becomes a cliché and, I dare say, an interference with the real work of a university in terms of teaching and research. We would all probably agree with this. This is not unique to Ireland. I remember being very conscious of it when I lectured in London; I was there when the polytechnics were being turned into universities. It is a process which must be approached with care. I absolutely approve of the reforms proposed by the Minister, but we need to ensure the transition is carried out in a way which is consensual and does not run into such controversies as we saw in the past.

Rehiring is a huge challenge in the third level sector and has been linked with our universities dropping in international rankings, albeit that all of us would agree these rankings can be criticised. The criteria for league tables are often themselves rather flawed and we see different approaches taken by different league tables. Having said all of this, rising staff to student ratios do not look good internationally or nationally for our universities. A large part of this has to do with difficulties in recruiting, rehiring or rehiring replacement staff and this must be examined. The Minister has promised a new performance funding framework for universities and we need to free up universities and give them flexibility. There is some flexibility and we see some hiring and this is very welcome.

The 2012 prioritisation acting group proposed 14 priority areas for research funding and there has been major restructuring in this area, such as the establishment of the Irish Research Council. There is much more to be said about this. Much larger quantities of research funding are available through the EU Horizon 2020 programme as everyone is aware. It is a highly competitive process. I have received funding for research from the European Union and I know exactly the hoops through which academics and administrators must jump. It is critical for academics to have administrative support in applying for and obtaining funding grants from the European Union. It is a worthwhile process and worth investing in it so we can claim our tranche. The Minister and the Minister of State are very well aware of this.

I absolutely agree there should be a role for students in reforming and restructuring processes and there should also be a role for alumni. I have received some very impassioned e-mails, as I know have others, from Trinity alumni in recent days on the rebranding initiatives undertaken by the college. Alumni and graduates of all our third level institutions feel very strongly about the institution they left and have strong views. Often they are reflective because they are looking back from the outside world at practices and cultures we may have become too institutionalised to recognise as flawed and in some way deserving of reform. They should also be included.

As the Minister stated to the USI yesterday, students are engaged in the higher education process of reform and a student survey is under way which I know will feed into the reform process. This is the Irish survey of student engagement being run by the HEA in conjunction with the USI and is a very important initiative. There is a real awareness about the need to bring along various stakeholders.

I congratulate my colleagues, in particular Senator Sean D. Barrett, for this initiative. It is highly significant and very important and shows the value and reflective nature of this House as well as the Senator's capacity to research and put together such a coherent piece of legislation. I very warmly welcome the fact the Government has decided to allow the Bill to continue to Committee Stage. This shows the proper collaborative nature of this House and the Government in the best interests of the citizens, which does not always happen.

As it is 20 years since I taught in the university, I am a little out of the loop. I am not as close as some of my colleagues to the academic situation, but I have several points to make. I wish to pick up on what Senator Ivana Bacik stated about the rebranding of Trinity College Dublin. I have not had any real volume of correspondence about it but as a graduate and former member of staff I am absolutely furious at what is being done. It is an insult. It degrades the status of graduates. I am astonished there has not been more of a row about it.

The university is different from when I was there, when there were 3,000 students. There are now 21,000 students in more or less the same space. It is a very different university which is much less personalised. We need to retain as much as we can of its distinctive character.

The idea of sacrificing the colour blue because in some way it is related to Ryanair is fatuous in the extreme

It is the gold. It is keeping the blue.

I wish the controlling financial mechanisms envisaged in the Bill had been there before the loonies in Trinity College Dublin managed to squiff €100,000 on this piece of tripe. If one looks at it, it is bland and artistically illiterate with a little squiggle of a book and the removal of the colours. It is a real insult. The fact that apparently the provost and the board are unaware the title is legally University of Dublin already, which is the constituency in which we sit, says a lot about how clued in they are to the real world. I am very concerned about it.

I am also concerned about the fact dthat they have decided it is a secular university. I am all in favour of secular universities, but let them change the name from Trinity College Dublin. They should also treat with respect the traditions of the university where it had a particular purpose in its foundation. It had a strong affiliation, which sometimes might have been controversial but in recent days was very positive, with the Church of Ireland, including with the Church of Ireland training college which was kicked out remorselessly and shoved in with the Mater Dei Institute of Education, according to what Senator Sean D. Barrett told me. All I can say is, "Mother of God, what in the name of Jesus are they at in that place?"

The first intention of the Bill is to create housekeeping, which is a very wise move politically, if I may compliment Senator Sean D. Barrett. People will like this and it is necessary. Of course, one must be careful about too many financial restrictions being placed on universities. The second intention is to put all universities, institutes of technology and technological universities under one regulatory structure which is very good, particularly in the light of the fact this appears to be, if the Government has its way, the vast constituency we will all face in the next election, although I believe there will be some hiccups. I ask the Minister of State to take back the fact I certainly will fight tooth and nail to ensure the Government does not get away with the dirty trick it is trying of watering down the university seats and not addressing the real issues of the Seanad. It must be all or nothing.

We must also consider the case of academic freedom. The Universities Act 1997 was important legislation which advanced matters at the time. I remember seconding an amendment put forward by Joe Lee for that Act which copper-fastened academic freedom in the universities. The Act was so highly regarded in terms of the protection of academic freedom that the Swedish Government adopted the model of the new section we had inserted into the Bill. The reason I wish to make this point is to point out that the insertion of such a new section would never have happened in the Dáil. The last time we were fighting about saving the university seats, we should have stood proudly on our record on such issues instead of apologising. I never apologised to the people for my role in this House and I never will. I work bloody hard and many other people do so also.

The Bill proposes that we address the problems created by the Cahill v. Dublin City University judgment. I understand this case concerned an attempt to get rid of somebody from the staff, but the attempt was botched - a little like Geraldine Kennedy trying to get rid of John Waters. I put this case in the same context as the case of the two university professors in the history department in Maynooth, who were successfully fired because of conflict with the ethos of the university. This messy issue needs to be cleaned up and I would like an indication from the Government that it intends to do this.

In the helpful memorandum on this Bill, Senator Sean D. Barrett states the HEA acts as the regulator, funder, and advocate of the higher education and research sector. Obviously, there are conflicts of interest in this regard - like in Lewis Carroll's "The Mouse's Tale" which states: "I'll be judge, I'll be jury, Said cunning old Fury: I'll try the whole cause and condemn you to death." The HEA has absolute power, but as we know, such power tends to corrupt. I am a little concerned that there may be greater Government involvement, although much funding comes from industry. Therefore, I welcome the creation of the higher education and research grants committee.

This is a good Bill and it has opened up discussion on the issues. In regard to a cost-benefit analysis, this approach does not always work and we must be aware of that. It may not work in the arts to the same extent it does in the accessible areas of science. However, even in the sciences, one must give freedom to what may appear to be rather extravagantly based research because so often in the history of science - think, for example of the accidental discovery of penicillin - discoveries are made by accident as a result of other experiments.

Like many of the Senators who have contributed to the debate, I thank Senator Sean D. Barrett for the work he has put into the drafting of this Private Members' Bill which seeks, among other things to consolidate third level legislation into a single Bill; provide for the establishment of a higher education and research grants committee which would decide upon all third level funding; and provide the Higher Education Authority with regulatory and advisory roles for all research funders, including those under the responsibility of other Departments.

As the Senator will be aware, in May 2013 the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, announced a major reorganisation of the country's higher education sector which includes provision for the creation of new technological universities. This announcement was made on foot of recommendations made by the Higher Education Authority for the consolidation of the institute of technology sector; the creation of a small number of technological universities; the formation of regional clusters between universities and institutes of technology; implementation of recommendations to rationalise teacher education; and for increased sustainability and capacity in the higher education system. These fundamental changes to the higher education system will enable it to respond in a more coherent way to national priorities set down by the Government and provide graduates with the skills and qualifications essential for Ireland's social and economic well-being. Our higher education institutions have a huge role to play in our national effort. They contribute to the generation of a highly skilled workforce, provide an environment where innovation and new ideas can flourish, undertake research to meet the needs of industry and society, contribute to our reputation and international attractiveness and serve as a key anchor in their local region or community.

The national strategy for higher education to 2030 sets out a comprehensive road map for reform of the higher education system. The objectives of the reform programme are to ensure that the system becomes more performance oriented and more flexible and responsive, while its diversity in terms of mission is retained and enhanced in order that students can soar to the heights of their ability. As Senator Sean D. Barrett rightly points out, legislation is required to implement a range of governance, accountability, funding and structural reforms to allow us to meet the framework for modernisation set out in the strategy.

In the past year considerable work has been done in terms of scoping out the range of legislative provision that will be required. A high priority is to provide for legal consolidation and mergers within the institute of technology sector and to provide for these new merged entities that reach the performance bar and criteria already published to apply for and become technological universities. Legislation will also be required to support the new funding, performance and accountability framework for the system that is being put in place. This is intended to provide statutory underpinning for the respective roles, functions and powers of the Minister and a reformed Higher Education Authority for the governance and regulation of the system. Legislation will also be required to strengthen and reform the governance structures and accountability of higher education institutions. With this in mind, the Minister previously sought the input of the Royal Irish Academy and of the universities and institutes of technology as to how best to create smaller, more modern and competency based governing boards as recommended in the strategy.

Given the high priority the Minister has placed on consolidation of the institutes of technology and the time constraints regarding ensuring those institutes wishing to merge have adequate legal provision in place to do so by 2015, the Department has focused on drafting a general scheme of a technological universities Bill. This scheme was approved for drafting and publication by Government at the end of January and is undergoing a process of pre-legislative scrutiny by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection. The Minister expects to receive its report by the end of April, when the scheme will go to the Attorney General's office for legal drafting. It is intended that the Bill will be enacted in 2015 so that there is provision for the earliest mergers and for potential applications for technological university status, if required. The timing of each merger and application will depend on the capacity of each group of institutions to merge and to meet the criteria that were clearly set out in 2012.

The scheme is in four parts and can be summarised as follows. The Bill enables the mergers of the three groups of institutes of technology who wish to seek designation as technological universities and-or of any other group of institutes of technology who wish to do likewise. The Bill sets out how the merged institutes can apply for designation as a technological university, the process and mechanism for consideration of the application, the type of criteria against which the application will be judged, which will be set out in full by regulations, and then provides for the Minister to establish a technological university following the advice of the Higher Education Authority that the criteria have been met.

The technological university has a similar level of autonomy, legal and operational framework to the 1997 universities, although with more modern governance and accountability structures. In addition, the Bill will provide for new governance structures for all institutes of technology and a number of other amendments to the institute of technology and DIT legislation, including new budgetary and accountability provisions. A revised and modernised governance structure has been developed, following consultation with the sector and this will be provided for all institutes of technology and for the technological universities.

In summary, the maximum overall size of the board under the new model is effectively the same as the current model, but changes are proposed in the methods of nomination and selection of the chair and external ordinary members who will be chosen by a nominations committee with regard to a competency framework.

Other planned legislation includes the technological universities Bill which will be followed and developed in parallel by a broader higher education reform Bill which will reform the existing legislation for the Higher Education Authority, HEA, with new powers, responsibilities, governance and accountability provisions. The Bill will also contain amendments to the Universities Act necessary to implement governance and accountability reforms. The Minister has already received a significant input from the Royal Irish Academy and the Irish Universities Association on how best to ensure reforms of governing bodies bring the governance of universities into line with international best practice in modern higher education governance.

In the area of funding Ireland faces the same challenges as other countries in the current economic climate where reductions in available State funding come at a time of significant growth in student numbers in higher education. As well as increased enrolments, the higher education system faces a growing demand for highly skilled and innovative, adaptable graduates with a world-class reputation. Delivering high quality higher education for a growing proportion of the population will mean that we need to maintain a clear focus on system performance overall, rather than a narrower focus on individual institutional performance. We are working on a study to determine future funding policy for the sector which will prepare for a longer term approach to a higher education system that can be maintained on a sustainable funding base which will be able to address the continual expansion of the sector, while protecting the quality of education. A new performance funding framework is being introduced which will hold the system accountable for performance in the delivery of national priorities and monitor performance of the system as a whole. This focus on system and institutional performance will bring the funding and governance of the higher education sector into line with best practice internationally.

Research and innovation are of major importance, given their role in contributing to economic recovery, competitiveness and growth not alone in Ireland but also across the European Union. Continued investment in research and innovation is essential if we are to maintain employment and create new high quality jobs. As Ireland moves from a policy focus on economic stabilisation to growth, sustained investment in research and development in the higher education sector remains of vital importance to enable the economy to recover and grow in the future. In the context of An Action Plan for Jobs and related statements of Government policy, the Government has affirmed its commitment to science, technology and innovation, STI, with higher education performed research remaining a central pillar in its STI strategy. The higher education sector provides a national base of skills and knowledge and complements the research undertaken in business sector firms and public sector institutes which are usually more applied and developmental in their focus.

The national strategy for research and innovation recognises the twin aims for both a broad base of research to inform research for policy making and research for knowledge to underpin cutting edge curricula for all graduates, while at the same time focusing research investments on 14 discrete areas identified by the research prioritisation steering group that can provide maximum return for Ireland. The research prioritisation action group was established to drive implementation of the research prioritisation agenda, which means the alignment of the majority of public research funding with the 14 areas of opportunity in the areas judged most likely to deliver an economic and societal impact and, ultimately, jobs.

Ireland has adopted a national strategy to maximise its participation in Horizon 2020, with an ambitious target of securing €1.25 billion for Irish researchers and companies during the lifetime of Horizon 2020. Horizon 2020 has the biggest EU research budget ever, with €80 billion available in the next seven years. The strategy outlines the support structures in place to ensure researchers and companies have access to information, advice and support to enable them to maximise opportunities under the programme.

Structural changes in the higher education system, including the development of regional clusters of institutions and the mergers of institutes of technology, will engender greater critical mass and excellence and allow Irish institutions to compete with the best across Europe. In addition, the new performance framework for the higher education system specifically includes metrics for EU research income and will encourage institutions to engage strategically with the programme.

I attended a meeting earlier today in another part of Dublin city. As a man from rural east Galway, I am somewhat unfamiliar with the intricacies of negotiating the streets of Dublin and had to employ the use of GPS to find my way back to Kildare Street. When I asked my phone to tell me how to get back to Kildare Street, it presented me with three route options, all bringing me back to this hallowed place. I say to Senator Sean D. Barrett that, ultimately, I suspect we are all on a journey to ensure the higher level education we provide for young people is of the very best standard possible. Perhaps the Government and the Senator might end up at the same destination, although we are currently on two slightly different routes. Through collaboration and co-operation in the coming months, I have every confidence that we will arrive at the same destination. I thank the Senator for tabling the Bill. The Minister has asked that I make it clear that we are not seeking to oppose it. We ask that the commencement of Committee Stage be deferred until such time as the two higher education Bills the Minister is planning have been introduced to the Oireachtas. That will allow for consideration of the issues raised in the Senator's Bill within the context of the other legislation planned.

I thank Senator Sean D. Barrett for bringing forward the Bill and stimulating debate on higher education. We are in broad agreement with most of the policy objectives of the Bill in so far as we agree that there should be a modern approach to management of public expenditure on higher education, clarity on academic tenure and freedom and, as has been mentioned, the consolidation of legislation. However, any policy objective set out in the proposed legal framework should not impinge on the ability to design an equitable education system in which people have equal access to educational facilities to study what is important to them, be it science, the arts or other subjects and should not be dictated solely by the needs, for example, of multinational companies or big business. We must not neglect the need to simultaneously provide an education that will help people to find employment. The change should not come at the expense of the university as a learning environment.

I have some concerns about particular sections of the legislation that perhaps Senator Sean D. Barrett might clear up. Perhaps my understanding of section 28(4)(c) is incorrect, but I am concerned that a probationary period of two years is high. There is also concern about allowing for termination owing to financial exigencies. That could mean that a university could fire people at will if it was running a deficit. Education requires more than just putting 600 students in a lecture hall.

Another issue that arose was related to section 39(1) which could allow universities to set student registration fees at will. I accept that the next section allows the Government to review the issue, but we seek clarification on the matter, as we would not be willing to support a measure that would allow fees to be introduced under such a guise. The level of financial pressure experienced by students is phenomenal and they should not have to worry more about how they will pay for their dinner than how they will do in their exams. To date, college counselling services are stretched to the limits because of the psychological effects of the financial pressures on students.

As a young person who is not long out of higher education in DCU and UCD, I hear from university students across the island. I am aware of the changes the education sector has undergone, some of which are a result of the global financial crisis and its particular manifestation in Ireland which encompasses an increased demand for higher education places. We support students in availing of further education courses, but there has been a decline in public funding for the sector. In response to changes and modernisation there have been mergers and alliances, including clusters of higher education centres. Colleges do not have much option but to engage in such a practice. However, the change has the potential to ensure an increase in the quality of education provided in the institutions concerned. There is no point in amalgamating emerging institutions unless there is a sufficient level of funding invested in them to ensure they serve a local need. The need for consistent, decent funding for the higher education sector must be addressed. We must ensure the educational needs of young people are also properly addressed. In the 1980s it was the norm for young people to leave school and enter the workforce with no higher education qualifications. That has now changed owing to the development of education services and increased access to third level institutions. As a result, one now needs a degree more than ever. It is a necessity more than a luxury as it might have been in the past. The changing face of employment does require a third level education.

Computer-based working seems to be the new factory sector. Perhaps this Bill could be part of the much-needed conversation around identifying what level of investment is required in education and how we spend the investment for the sector in a far better and more equitable fashion. There does need to be more discussion on the priority of spending for higher education. It is a public good for which it should be acknowledged.

The need for balanced strong and sustainable public investment is obvious. There should also be inclusion of citizens from further afield than just the learning professions that are listed specifically in the Bill. Like others, I would go so far as to say there may even be a case for student representation in this process. That is the cohort of people who will have to deal with the ramifications of committee decisions, apart from lecturers and teachers in universities.

I welcome the Government’s decision to allow the Bill to proceed to Committee Stage and look forward to further discussion on it.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, and I am particularly delighted he is using modern technology in giving his speech and finding Leinster House today with GPS. I also welcome the decision of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, not to oppose the Higher Education and Research (Consolidation and Improvement) Bill 2014. I want to touch on a couple of areas related to the Bill and ideas that could be considered in the context of the legislation.

One point that always bothers me when there is any discussion about universities is there is no mention of them from the business perspective. Masters and PhDs are presented as some sort of social benefit which a higher education institution is kindly providing. In reality, they are the cash cows that keep universities afloat. Many people are pushed towards them even if they are unsuited or allowed to undertake them if they stump up their several thousand euro. I want to see this area cleared up. We should be much more honest and recognise these degrees are done on a business model, namely, to make money. That would be much fairer to the customer, those who undertake such degrees.

The Bill attempts to further the concept of academic freedom and academic tenure which needs a little more discussion. That is why I am glad the Minister wants to allow the Bill to proceed to Committee Stage. I note there is some opposition to the idea of academic tenure. The Economist recently stated about business schools in the United States that "tenured academics are untouchable and can block any change in a school". Obviously, we do not want a situation like this. Senator Sean D. Barrett explains tenure is not that one can never be fired but that no one can be fired based on the grounds of discovering an unpopular research result or teaching a controversial subject. I welcome this strengthening of the area, but we must understand academics also follow the money. I am not arguing that climate change is man-made or not. However, billions of euro are available for research to prove that climate change is man-made. Indeed, there may be many more instances of what could be called “one-sided research”. How do we attempt to give some balance in, say, the body of research on hydraulic fracturing or genetically modified food? Perhaps, even in the Bill, could we ensure some percentage of funds for academic research goes to what could be termed "anti-consensus research"? That would be something that gives a nudge and would mark out our academic system as one that is not afraid to give difficult answers.

Will the Bill give us the opportunity to highlight the need to consider the role that private universities or institutions have in our higher education sector? I was involved in the Springboard programme and was impressed at the variety and range of subjects offered by private universities, as well as the traditional universities. Should the Government be obliged to make some sort of commitment or even give financial support to private universities? Other countries have recognised that, by supporting this sector, it can play a big part in tackling youth unemployment. This would be a concrete step to show the Government is committed to upskilling and progressing further education.

This is the thinking in Brazil where its Government gives a 10% subsidy to private colleges with the obvious payback that it has a more educated workforce, a youth workforce in particular. We need to realise that people are going to move much more to online education. Ms Lynda Gratton of the London Business School says there is likely to be a wave of innovation in further education, particularly online, that will cater to this need in a more flexible, personalised way than the traditional degree or postgraduate course. Mr. Clayton Christensen, a Harvard Business School professor and author of The Innovative University, predicts wholesale bankruptcies in the next decade among standard universities if they do not exploit the online market. This is a real challenge but a significant opportunity. Is Ireland going to be left behind in this respect? I do not believe so because I have high regard for the competence of our universities. There are some moves in this area but much more can be done. The Government can do more to support this area and more reference to this area needs to be made.

These are the very points we can make on Committee Stage. I am delighted the Ministers have accepted this Bill’s Second Stage. I look forward to further discussions on Committee Stage and we can sort out the many other challenges facing the sector. I congratulate Senator Sean D. Barrett on this well thought out Bill. That does not mean we cannot make amendments to it on Committee Stage.

I welcome the Minister of State. I thank Senator Sean D. Barrett for all his work in producing the Higher Education and Research (Consolidation and Improvement) Bill 2014. I welcome this as a starting point in opening the debate on this sector. I have taken the time to speak to several academics about this legislation. I commend his definition of academic freedom and his interesting definition of academic tenure. I agree with him that we need to find a sustainable model for funding the sector. There are, however, other points about this legislation on which we will probably divide.

It is wise to accept the Bill and move it on to Committee Stage. However, we need a national convention on this issue, along the lines of the Constitutional Convention. It would allow us to hear all the stakeholders and decide on what is the best third level model for Ireland. I note we are criticising ourselves based on what the European Union and OECD have stasted on this matter. While this is all valid, we must step back and ask what we want.

I have worked in third level and noted there were always three standards to it, namely, teaching, research and linkages to the regional, national and international. In the quest for funding for research, some of those standards are lost. I am particularly concerned about the quality of teaching outcomes.

I will express some criticisms, but they are intended to be constructive.

What is the rationale for placing all universities, institutes of technology and the new technological universities under one single regulatory structure? There is widespread suspicion that such efforts constitute the homogenisation of third level. Moreover, without an assessment of existing models one runs the risk of undermining diversity in the third level sector. That diversity inspires competition and innovation. It is not good if we are all the same - diversity is critical.

The second point made was that European higher education is fragmented and exists without sufficient linkages. When we talk about linkages we need to be careful how we define them. We must ask whether we are talking about European-wide formal mechanisms of control and whether we fully appreciate existing linkages. For example, ask any active academic and he or she will mention global linkages which arise as a result of the associations that he or she is a member of, the international conferences that he or she attends, at which he or she makes a presentation and, in many cases, help organise. A brief look through a recent list of peer review papers published by UCD academics will demonstrate a rich form of engagement among academics throughout Europe. That situation should be valued, supported and acknowledged. Let me outline my own experience. When I worked at the Mary Immaculate College in Limerick, we had linkages with universities worldwide, the European Union and the Third World. The University of Limerick and NUIG have linkages, GMIT has links to different technical institutes in the States and TCD and UCD have linkages. Therefore, we must be careful and know exactly what we are talking about.

When one presents papers abroad it is natural for the audience to want to create a link. I won a prize for my research on literacy and I presented my paper in Jamaica which resulted in a load of linkages. I take the point that there needs to be strategic linkages but natural linkages are very common. If one talks to academics they will tell one about the structured progress made to date and some of the benefits of having to compete on a global scale. However, they will also highlight that the quality of education in our universities is in need of a serious review, and I think Senator Barrett would agree. More of them will still point out that the drive to apply for research grants has created a two-tier academia comprising those so-called attractive areas and less attractive areas which has led to resentment and an undervaluation of the ideals of a university. Recently I participated on a panel that discussed the quality of education in the new technical universities in DIT. At that half-day symposium six weeks ago in DIT representatives of all of the institutes of technology were present and we had an excellent debate. The institutes are preparing for the new technical university model and I was seriously impressed by them.

Let us consider who is the ideal teacher in a university. He or she is somebody who is researching and has an ability to teach and impart knowledge. Sometimes there are teachers who have not conducted research for years because they have not got the time. Sometimes there are people who only do research and the two elements never meet. The situation poses lots of challenges.

I am conscious of the time remaining. The document also refers to access to university. The goal is 70% but we have reached more than 60% so we are doing very well. That is an important point.

I am concerned about the homogenisation of third level education. I am also concerned about over control. The Minister of State mentioned, for example, that the HEA is not in control of everything which is good. I would hate to see research funding taken away from the Science Foundation Ireland and the Health Research Board, but they are unique specialisms that know exactly what they want to achieve. Is my time up?

The Senator is over time.

I am sorry. As I accept that I am over time, I shall return to the fundamental point that I made. I thank Senator Sean D. Barrett for starting this conversation as it was badly needed. I propose the that Minister for Education and Skills puts in place an all-Ireland - not just the Republic - academic convention whereby a specific set of questions that we have compiled are posed and we achieve answers. Also, we could create our own model of what it is to be a university, a technological university and an institute of technology.

Did Senator Diarmuid Wilson indicate a wish to speak?

I thank everybody for their kind, informed and generous responses. As the Minister of State said, this is the start of something which is very much needed post-troika Ireland; this matter is one of the key things that we must address.

Today's debate follows a great tradition. I recall that Edmund Burke, a politician in the UK Parliament, worked so hard to keep what he called "placemen" from Dublin Castle off the board of Maynooth which was being founded as a university largely because of his efforts in the 1790s. Then Mr. Gladstone one day decided he wanted to close the university in Galway and undermine Queens University. He was not doing much good for TCD either, but we had two MPs in Westminster who voted against him which led to him losing office and Mr. Disraeli became the Prime Minister. I do not envisage Senator Paddy Burke doing anything radical as his namesake today. It is interesting that such important education decisions were assisted by people in parliament on all of those occasions.

Let me go through some of the comments. I thank my seconder, Senator John Crown. We do need to stress academic excellence. We have very well educated and smart young people, but I wonder sometimes whether we have lost perspective. Senator Feargal Quinn referred to the matter when he asked who pays for everything in the universities and he has seen business schools doing so. I would include economics in that group. People attend lectures that are held in large theatres where 400 people are in attendance in places such as UCD, Trinity, Galway or whatever. As not much public money is spent on them, one wonders why. It is James Hickman's view that the earlier one spends money on people in education, the better. However, there are some strange views on what is worth subsidising. In fact, Ireland's ranking in the humanities and social sciences is way above its ranking in some of the other subjects into which we have poured a lot of money in order that these traditions continue.

I thank Senator Jim D'Arcy for telling us about the relationship between Dundalk Institute of Technology and DCU, the development at Dundalk and his nine years of service there. I also thank Senator Averil Power for her comments. She stressed the importance of social science, research and the arts. There is still such expertise. One could say that Ireland fell apart in 2008 due to the absence of basic economics in crucial places like banks, in the bank regulator's office and so on. We need all subjects to be studied and it will take a lot of high-tech science to make up for what happened to us in 2008.

On that score - I reiterate my welcome - the Minister of State pointed out to us on his last visit that he estimated that there were more than 200 apprenticeships available in Austria, Switzerland and Germany but only about a dozen here. He is seeking to remedy that defect in the education system which is important and I wish him well in that regard.

The Minister of State mentioned the GPS. I tried once, using the GPS, to see how one would go from TCD to UCD and the answer was change at "Ballyban" but I did not know where it meant.

Senator Ivana Bacik also made many important points such as on diversity and how much the system has been increased which I welcome.

With regards to a role for the alumni, they play a major role in the United States. When I hear people from industry say that universities do not do X, Y and Z my response is "Hey, we have given you the lowest corporate tax rate so how about putting some studentships in there to supply the skills that you can see is in short supply?" Our level of independent funding and philanthropy is low by international standards. I shall be calling on some of the people who make those statements to put their money where their mouth is, but it is what operates in other countries.

I appreciate what Senator David Norris said about the logo. All that I can say is, please, do not believe everything that is published in the papers; those changes are far from taking place. I shall leave it at that by saying I came from a board meeting this morning.

I thank the Minister of State and Senator Kathryn Reilly. It is important to note that we have on this island two reforming Ministers with responsibility for education, Mr. John O'Dowd, MLA, and Deputy Ruairí Quinn and his colleagues. Before John O'Dowd, Caitríona Ruane, MLA, was the Minister. There has been a long interest in education, North and South. It is very important to have this much-needed dialogue and debate. I have referred to Senator Feargal Quinn in respect of business schools, innovation and bankruptcy.

I thank Senator Fidelma Healy Eames for the points she made. In recent times, teaching has been downgraded. I have received documents suggesting I can use a research fund to buy out my teaching. Why would I want to do that? That is the job I was hired for a good while ago. The duty of a university is to look after a population group primarily aged between 18 and 22 years, and that is tantamount. That is why the taxpayers of Ireland put in so much money. They want their sons and daughters to see the people who should be there, not substitutes or replacements.

International links are important in a sector that has always been international. Even in the hardest of times in recession eras such as the 1950s, the best Irish graduates went to Harvard, Yale, Oxford and Cambridge. While the others had to emigrate, they were always sought after as employees. It has been international for a very long time.

With regard to redressing some of the things that have happened with the restoration of morale and bringing teaching up as an important function, the graduates are the product of the university - research papers are also a product, but the graduates are the primary product - and we have a special duty of care to them. When the late former Senator Trevor West was studying mathematics in Trinity College Dublin, he went to the provost's house and the provost taught him mathematics. Into that transaction, we have introduced layers and layers of bureaucracy. It is a huge overhead cost must be tackled. Speaking of clusters, I came across the minutes of one of these layers of bureaucracy, minute No. 9 and I ask what on earth it has to do with getting knowledge from one lecturer to a class of 18 to 22 year olds. The text refers to how the formal monitoring of progress within the regional cluster will be done via the strategic dialogue process with the compact submission forming the basis of the review, with each compact submission being consistent with other cluster members in respect of cluster objectives and, given the developments in this regard, since the initial submission of the compact, the development of a common work plan could now be inserted as an objective. People should just give lectures to the 18 to 22 year olds and meet them afterwards. They probably learn more from each other than from the lecturers and lecturers will probably learn more from students than vice versa. We must restore this process, along with the great student debating societies, where five people say there is global warming, five people say there is not, and the jury decides.

There is a herd instinct in research. A well known scientist, James Lovelock, asks when he can meet an individual scientist why they hunt in herds, with 500 people agreeing that something is a problem. He asks why there are huge grants to do so. In welcoming what the Minister of State said about restoring the world of ideas, I refer to that excitement in education and the tradition of an múinteoir, which was always valued in Irish society. Perhaps we lost it somewhat in the Celtic tiger era and developed an edifice complex, building so many buildings. Let us get back to what that is, where people go to meet inspiring teachers and are inspired in turn and it is passed onto the next generation. We must get through the fog encountered in recent times in the excesses of the Celtic tiger to restore education.

I am delighted to be part of three Bills. I thank the Minister of State for his generosity of reception. All of the Members look forward to working with the Minister of State. I have always disagreed with what John F. Kennedy said in his speech to the Dáil when he quoted Lord Edward Fitzgerald as saying Leinster House did not inspire the brightest ideas. It does. This is a great place for ideas and we started a lot today. These three Bills will move forward together and it will have massive benefits for education and the people. I thank the Minister of State and my colleagues for their contributions.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 8 April 2014.
Sitting suspended at 4.35 p.m and resumed at 5 p.m.
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