The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the participation by Irish Defence Forces personnel in the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force, UNDOF, mission on the Golan Heights, to be taken at 1 p.m. and conclude not later than 1.45 p.m., with the contributions of all Senators not to exceed five minutes; No. 2, Valuation (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012 - Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken at 3 p.m. and adjourned not later than 5 p.m., if not previously concluded; and No. 55, Private Members' business, motion No. 9 re arts and culture sector, to be taken at 5 p.m., with the time allocated for the debate not to exceed two hours.
Order of Business
One point of clarification on No. 1: does it refer to Senators or spokespersons?
Spokespersons.
Everyone will agree that we are very proud of the Defence Forces and the force reserve company that has returned from a difficult mission in the Golan Heights. I am delighted that they have all returned safely. I commend the men and women of the reserve company for their bravery during their tour of duty in the past six months. While there will be only a short debate or statements, it is important that this be recognised. This is only one example, by the way, of how the Defence Forces and front-line services, including the Garda, have performed on United Nations peacekeeping duty in recent decades. This should focus the Government's mind on supporting our Defence Forces as much as possible. I welcome them back and I am glad everyone has returned safely. On behalf of my group, I commend them all for the bravery they showed during the tour of duty.
Several weeks ago we debated at length the State Airports (Shannon Group) Bill 2014. I reminded colleagues at the time that it was the first time any Government had moved to legislate for a private pension scheme, namely, the Irish aviation superannuation scheme. I imagine all Members have received detailed correspondence from retired members of the scheme, whose group, the Retired Aviation Staff Association, does a fantastic job in representing them, as well as the deferred pensioners group. On the basis of what the Government has passed in the Parliament, they will have a loss to their potential pensions of between 48% and 55%.
I am keen to correct the record of the House. In fairness, the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, and many of the Government Senators have been corresponding with people who got in contact with them about their livelihoods, their quality of life and the fact that their pensions are going to be halved under the Government's proposals. The Tánaiste and the Government are putting out the message that the expert panel engaged extensively, in particular, with the deferred members group, which comprises 5,000 people and their families. It did not. The expert panel set up by the Government did not engage extensively in any way, particularly in respect of the deferred pensioners. I know that Senator Ivana Bacik has responded in a recent e-mail to Mr. John Murphy in this regard. She sent on a detailed response. I acknowledge the fact that the Senator responded to him, but I call on her to go back and check the facts. That is not particularly a point against the Senator, but rather against the Government.
The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport will have to sign two commencement orders to tear asunder the scheme and the promised pension benefits of the people concerned who have worked for 35 or 36 years and had been expecting pensions. They paid into the scheme on a compulsory basis. On the basis of these proposals they will now have their pensions reduced by 50%. If that were to happen in this House, there would be a furore. People would go crazy about any idea involving such massive reductions in pensions. We debated the matter at length at the time.
I call on the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection at this late stage to consider bringing forward amendments to reduce the level of reduction for deferred and retired members. Let us not forget that many of the retired members have no ability to earn additional pay. Many of these individuals are in their late 60s, 70s or 80s and have paid into the scheme for years. This is not a solution. During the years and under successive Governments the scheme was used as a vehicle and an incentive for people to retire early. It is proven now that the scheme could not afford to take the hit it has taken. People have paid into the scheme for 30 or 35 years. This is the first time the Government has legislated to reduce benefits in a private pension scheme. In this regard, we need to know what the Tánaiste and the Government are doing. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to the effect that the Tánaiste come to the House for one hour to explain whether she is open to or will move further amendments to the scheme under the social welfare Bill to reduce the savage level of reductions proposed by the Government. It is only reasonable that she come to the House and correct the record in respect of what her officials are telling her party members.
The Senator is way over time.
I am formally proposing an amendment to the Order of Business.
I thank the Leader for arranging the debate today on participation by Irish Defence Forces personnel in the UNDOF mission on the Golan Heights. I have just come from a meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, at which the Minister for Defence, Deputy Simon Coveney, briefed members on the participation of Defence Forces personnel in the Golan Heights mission. I add my voice to those of others in commending those in the Defence Forces who only returned late last night from their six month tour of duty, who were responsible for extremely brave and heroic actions in August. They assisted in the safe extraction of 58 members of the Philippine battalion who had been attacked by rebels and, on 30 August, they extracted 35 Filipino troops from a position surrounded by rebels. The Minister went into considerable detail with the committee on the circumstances of the rescue of the Filipino troops. All of us should commend the 44th Battalion which was involved in those rescues. Moreover, we should all send our best wishes to the members of the 46th Infantry group who were sent out at 6.30 a.m. yesterday for a further six month tour of duty following a review of the mission by the Minister and at UN level. There is major concern about the escalation of tensions in the area.
We had a good debate last night on the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) (Amendment) Bill. In the course of the debate we discussed briefly the situation in Syria, particularly the appalling circumstances of the siege of the town of Kobani, which, it appears, may fall to the rebels from ISIS, or the Islamic State group. We spoke about the barbarism and brutality of the people in that group and the need for those of us in Europe to ensure we took steps to prevent the recruitment of foreign fighters by these groups in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere. I thank the Leader for arranging that debate.
I call on the Leader to arrange a debate on an Amnesty International report published today - I attended the launch earlier - on economic, social and cultural rights. The report, Bringing ESC Rights Home, examines how economic, social and cultural, ESC, rights and obligations may be applied to budgetary policy and recommends that the Government establish a minimum level of protection for all such rights. We had a good debate on the issue at the Constitutional Convention. On foot of that debate, there was a strong majority recommendation from the convention that the Government should give constitutional protection to ESC rights. The report from Amnesty International is part of a process of seeking to ensure greater protection for them.
In advance of next week's budget the ESRI has also recommended that we see investment by the Government in social housing, given the strong growth figures for this year and predicted for next year. I suggest to the Leader that we have a debate broadly on ESC rights, Amnesty International's report and the report of the Constitutional Convention.
I spent last night reading Professor Honohan's report from the Central Bank on the 20% to be imposed on loan-to-value and loan-to-income requirements and think it is a great example of obfuscation. It is endemic and extraordinary because nowhere in the document, which all Members should read, does it actually state the banks are at fault. We are all at fault, but they are not necessarily at fault. There is reference to "too lax mortgage credit standards" when there were in fact no mortgage level standards in the banks. We allegedly destabilised the economy, when the banks did it singlehandedly. They drove up the profits. Every sale they made generated commission. They did not know their jobs, they did not know the internal workings of their jobs, they did not know the ethics of their jobs, or the morality of their jobs. They had no competence, they had no ability, and now they are trying to blame us, as if we are the only people in the business.
The banks were inextricably linked with the housing market. They created it, it was their baby. Some of them are still in the job, still doing the same . What have they learned? They have learned nothing. This question is raised in the document, but it is not answered. They are still driving up the prices, they are still driving up the interest rates and they are still crucifying Mr. Ordinary. As someone from Fianna Fáil mentioned yesterday, we do not even have a human being to talk to when we go in the door of the bank. They talked about loan-to-value and loan-to-income ratios, but my question is where Mr. Ordinary will get 20% of the value of the property. It is not the deposit that crucifies people, it is the interest rates that do so. People are incapable of paying them back. Professor Honohan says the loans issued near the peak of the cycle led to large numbers of borrowers in negative equity once housing prices turned, which is a well documented cause of mortgage defaults. Here is my documented cause - the banks lent money like circus clowns and made commission on every single penny they lent. That is why we had a housing bubble. I would also like to ask Profesor Honohan why he did not do this in any other year since 2008.
Before I finish, let me get to the best example of banking alliteration in the document, on page 30. It reads: "The loosening of lending standards played a large part in fuelling the Irish property boom". That is what Professor Honohan calls it. Here is my better example of alliteration - "gross greed and no banking governance". Banks constitute the most incompetent, the most immoral and the most powerfully useless institutions in the country. I despair that I have to go into them because I have nobody to speak to, but I must go in because my salary is paid through the banking system as I cannot get it in cash. We need serious debate in the Seanad about the banking system and the obfuscation in documents such as this, blaming the people, who are just the butt of their incompetence. I call on the Minister for Finance to come and explain this extraordinary, endemic obfuscation on the real reasons behind the economic collapse. If one cannot tell oneself the real reason for the problem, one will never learn what it is - the banks' greed, greed and more greed.
Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?
Yes. Will somebody second it?
I will.
I refer to the illegal banking activities of the Bank of Ireland regarding Irish citizens and groups composed of Irish citizens. Reports appeared in early June in the newspapers that the Bank of Ireland was closing down all Cuban-associated accounts. The Cuba Support Group which is known to many Members, a very responsible and respectable group, contacted its bank and was reassured that nothing was happening. Then on 11 July it received a letter saying that all its accounts were being closed. It receive a second letter on 14 July giving it two days notice of the closure. I find this extraordinary. It seems to be an off-shoot of the Helms-Burton Act, to which this country responded by introducing legislation of its own, ensuring these conditions would not be employed in Irish banking. On 22 September, the Cuba Support Group called the Bank of Ireland in Swords and left a message on the voicemail and received a call from Mr. Kenny Morgan, the manager of the Swords branch, to say he was sorry, but the decision to close the account had been taken in the US parent office and could not be changed.
I ask the Leader, as a matter of urgency and grave concern, to ask the Minister whether it is in accordance with Irish law that a wholly Irish NGO, operating in Ireland and funded by a membership entirely located within the Republic of Ireland, namely, the Cuba Support Group, can have its banking service terminated at short notice because of the decision of an American company which Bank of Ireland is using to process financial transactions. If an Irish bank refuses to provide banking services to the Cuba Support Group as a result of US banking regulations administered by the US Office of Foreign Assets Control, will the Minister with responsibility for trade act to prosecute it in accordance with Irish and European law, prohibiting the extra-territorial application of US law in the illegal US blockade of Cuba? I emphasise that there is a European position to resist this colonialist attempt to intervene in Irish banking practice for purely political purposes of the United States of America and against the interest of citizens, banks and groups in this country. What emergency facilities will the Minister for Finance make available to allow the Cuba Support Group to operate a functioning Irish bank account with cheque clearing and electronic transfer facilities while his colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, undertakes prosecutions?
This is an entirely Irish-owned and operated membership organisation affected by some group in the United States because of the operation of the Helms-Burton Act. It is plainly illegal and the Irish authorities should act against it. It is an attempt to close down a group that is critical of American foreign policy in a way that many of us who are friends of America are also critical. It has already closed down the group's PayPal account. It cannot get new members through PayPal because America has decided it cannot do so in this country. Is Ireland a colony?
Like others, I would like the Minister for Finance to come to the Seanad for a debate on banking, but I appreciate that the budget is next Tuesday and that he is probably going to be tied up preparing what is a very important budget for Ireland's economic recovery. Post-budget, when he comes in to address the House on budgetary issues, I would like the Leader to make the Minister aware that this House has enormous concerns over banking. I witnessed in a branch of Bank of Ireland in Clare recently an 86 year old man going up to the counter to carry out a transaction and being told he would have to go to a machine, although they would assist him with this. The man was confused and upset. He certainly felt the Government had turned its back on him, given that it had bailed out the banks. Unfortunately, trying to explain the dynamics of banking to someone of that age when they are not too happy is not easy.
Similarly, customer service, whether in banking or elsewhere, is extremely important. I have had a number of complaints, as, I am sure, other colleagues have, to my constituency office concerning Irish Water and the length of time people spend on the telephone trying to get through to Irish Water. I realise Irish Water is a national utility which is in its incubation period but at the same time people are now paying for water. They therefore expect that when they make a call, this should be answered and that they should not have to spend money waiting 15 minutes on the telephone. I ask the Leader to process a request to Irish Water that they establish a call-back service, whereby when someone is on the telephone for a few minutes, he or she will have the option to leave his or her number in order that Irish Water will ring him or her back. That is one step that would facilitate improved customer service at Irish Water and I would like the Leader to communicate this to its chief executive.
I seek leave to introduce No. 11, Immigration Reform for U.S. Citizens Living in Ireland Bill 2014. Many of those affected are unable to remain in Ireland because of the immigration system.
While we have 50,000 undocumented Irish living in the United States-----
Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?
Yes, I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, that the Immigration Reform for U.S. Citizens Living in Ireland Bill 2014 be taken in the House, in the light of the fact that such citizens find it so difficult to remain here despite the enormous contribution they make. The irony is that we seek to have the situation regarding the 50,000 undocumented Irish living in the United regularised, but when it comes to U.S. citizens in similar situations who wish to remain here, we do not facilitate a system allowing them to do so.
Yesterday, we spoke here about the trials and travails within Fine Gael. I am aware Senator Paul Coghlan would have been at the Fine Gael breakfast this morning - I hope he enjoyed it - which was attended by the British ambassador. This breakfast was a fundraising event. Will the Leader clarify the position because-----
After all, it is a West Brit party.
Will somebody wake me up when this is all over?
Were the Standards in Public Office Commission or the British Embassy aware this breakfast was a fundraising event? It is appropriate that ambassadors are invited, by all political parties, to attend events but not to fund-raisers. We are all aware of the difficulties in regard to politics and fund-raisers-----
The Senator sounds anti-British.
The Senator may speak for himself.
I am listening to the Senator.
Does Senator Mark Daly have a question for the Leader?
Unremitting hatred of the English.
Please allow Senator Mark Daly to make his contribution, without interruption, please.
Will the Chair, please, ask Senator David Norris to refrain from interrupting?
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
He is telling you what to do.
I ask Senator David Norris to withdraw the statement.
I will not.
I did not hear what he said. Does Senator Mark Daly have a question for the Leader?
I ask the Chair to ask Senator David Norris to withdraw the statement he made.
I did not hear what he said.
He called the Senator anti-British and should withdraw that remark.
I ask the Cathaoirleach to instruct the Senator to withdraw the statement he made.
I will not; it is as simple as that.
As I did not hear what the Senator had to say, I cannot comment on it. Does Senator Mark Daly have a question for the Leader?
It is unfortunate that the Senator is not concerned about the issue of fundraising within political parties and that the British ambassador appears to have been misled in regard to that issue and was unaware the breakfast was a fundraising event. I have attended many events with the British ambassador in regard to the decade of commemorations and ask the Leader to clarify the position. Was he informed that the breakfast was a fundraising event?
I understand he was a speaker at the event.
That is right.
I understand the embassy was not informed.
I ask the Senator to resume his seat.
Does Senator Mark Daly think the British ambassador should be muzzled?
I ask the Senator to show some courtesy to the House and resume his seat.
I am sorry to interrupt, but I ask Senator David Norris to withdraw his last comment.
With all the interruptions in the House, I did not hear what he had to say. I call Senator Aideen Hayden.
I ask Senator David Norris to withdraw his comment.
On a point of order, it is difficult for us on this side to hear what is said on the other side of the House. I am not being smart about this, but we could not hear the Senator's argument.
Can we hear Senator Aideen Hayden, without interruption, please?
I will accept that, but perhaps when the Chair has had a chance to look at the record, he might-----
I ask Senator David Norris to, please, resume his seat.
On a point of order, I would like to let the House know that the report in the newspapers stated the British ambassador would be the guest speaker at a lucrative Fine Gael fund-raiser this morning, but the Fine Gael Party did not tell ambassador, Mr. Dominick Chilcott, that the business breakfast was a fund-raiser when he was invited - end of story.
That is not a point of order. The Senator is completely out of order.
I beg the Chair's pardon-----
That is exactly the point I was making - that the ambassador was unaware it was a fund-raiser. I asked the Leader to clarify the position.
We are not here to discuss a morning breakfast.
As I am sure the British ambassador will respond, let us stop making a song and dance out of this and get on with the business of the House.
Senator Mark Daly should resume his seat.
I second the amendment proposed by the Fianna Fáil leader on the Order of Business and thank Senator David Norris for reiterating my comment.
Senators are using up time on the Order of Business because I will be calling time after 55 minutes today.
I have no comment to make about who does or does not attend a breakfast for any reason, but I point out that it is thanks to the Government that we have robust legislation on political donations and their declaration and that we have openness and transparency in political life.
Like the appointment made to IMMA.
Does Senator Aideen Hayden have a question for the Leader?
Did the Senator vote for Mr. McNulty? She probably did, like all the Labour Party Members who walk through the lobbies and do what their Fine Gael masters tell them to do.
Please allow Senator Aideen Hayden to contribute, without interruption.
I bet she did, no doubt about it. I hope she walks him into the House-----
I wish to respond to some of the comments made by Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell about the Governor of the Central Bank and the mortgage market. I agree with her that we need a robust debate on the banking sector and I have called for that on a number of occasions. We cannot go back to the way things were. There is no alternative now for people on low incomes such as there was back in the 1970s and 1980s. The mutual societies are gone. The Industrial Credit Corporation, the Agricultural Credit Corporation, the EBS and all of those organisations where people on lower level incomes could borrow are gone. We are now left with the two or three banks that run banking and must wake up and deal with that reality.
In the context of the ESRI's latest economic commentary, it is gratifying to see that not only-----
On a point of order, is the Senator suggesting we are not allowed to challenge the two great pillar banks? I am surprised by that.
That is not a point of order.
No, I said the opposite.
She said we must live with this reality.
The Senator cannot abuse the facility to make a point of order.
My apologies.
Does Senator Aideen Hayden have a question for the Leader?
Yes, I do. I said the exact opposite.
No, the Senator did not.
I said we needed a debate on banking because we no longer had alternatives.
That does not mean that we cannot challenge the arrangements made.
Please allow Senator Aideen Hayden to speak.
As we have no alternatives, the only thing we can do is challenge the main lending institutions. As they are the only game in town, we must challenge whatever they say robustly.
I think Senator Fidelma Healy Eames raised her hand before I did, but I will not look a gift horse in the mouth.
As the House may be aware, this is Palliative Care Week. This is an all-island event and the first of its kind. It is being co-ordinated by the All Ireland Institute for Hospice and Palliative Care and its objective is to increase public awareness of palliative care and greater understanding of when it can be applied. This is a noble initiative that deserves our recognition and admiration, because it promotes a model of care for those suffering from serious illness in a way that respects their human dignity and strives to ensure they achieve the best possible quality of life.
It is worth remembering that the palliative care approach is beneficial for anybody with an incurable illness, regardless of age and including babies that are born with such serious difficulties that they are unlikely to survive. Perinatal hospice care allows parents and baby to make the best of their often brief time together and provides many treasured memories. Support groups such as One Day More, which is made up of parents who received poor prenatal prognoses for their babies, agree that this type of care offers the best way forward when coping with such shocking news. It is the only type of care that respects the intrinsic value of the lives of these babies and recognises their worth is not dependent on the quality or length of their time on this earth.
I am not finding fault with the Leader in regard to what we asked for last year but which never happened, but I believe there was a commitment to have a debate on perinatal hospices and the need to extend perinatal hospice care here. We live in an age dominated by the ideology of choice. In recent weeks I have found it distressing to see elements in the media seek with brutal intent to create a wedge to see abortion legalised in those tragic situations of babies that have a short life prognosis or who are doomed to die shortly after birth. This particular media agenda is wrong, tragic and inhumane. We can counter this agenda by promoting the cause of perinatal hospice units. Such services are only provided on an ad hoc basis in certain hospitals and there are no officially designated care units.
The Senator is way over time.
What about the mothers?
These units are for families, mothers and their babies. Can we hear from the Minister for Health on this issue? Is it possible for us to get a commitment that there will be provision made for perinatal hospice services in the budget?
I was intrigued by Senator Mark Daly's reference to fundraising. Perhaps he might outline to the House his involvement in fundraising in the United States. There is a question he needs to answer.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader? We are not discussing fundraising issues.
We should take note that the British Government is supporting the fundraising of Fine Gael. Why would it do that?
I wish to raise the issue of long-term planning. All the evidence suggests there is a major turn in the economy and that growth rates will vary from 4.5% to 6.1% in the next 12 months, which is very welcome. Long-term planning is an issue we need to address seriously. The media have not commented in recent times on those between 20 and 30 years of age. In the past five years the number of people in that age group has decreased from 755,000 to 549,000. At the same time, the category of those aged over 65 years has increased from 535,000 to 585,000. A growing number of people are retired. We need to talk about long-term planning in regard to our younger and older populations. We need to have a debate on the type of country we want to have in the next ten or 20 years. We are discussing day-to-day planning, but we need to discuss long-term planning. We have not had a debate in the House on that issue, and particularly on how we can accommodate the numbers leaving and coming into the country. The numbers will increase. I ask the Leader for a debate on that matter.
I have called for a debate on Irish Water and the Commission for Energy Regulation's water services plan twice in the past two weeks. I have asked the Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, to come to the House to discuss these issues. The former Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, stated: "Irish Water has come across as arrogant and uncaring, demanding money and demanding PPS numbers without properly explaining why all of this is necessary." He said it was "another cosseted quango with a bonus culture". He set up Irish Water and is now saying it has become a complete disaster. It is a pity he did not listen to those on this side of the House when we spent 16 or 17 hours discussing the Water Services Bill. Almost all of the concerns raised by those on this side of the House have now come to pass. They were dismissed by the former Minister of State and the Government parties at the time which voted in favour of the Bill.
Irish Water has become tainted by cronyism and a bonus culture. It is a complete waste of taxpayers' money. Huge amounts of money were spent on consultants. We now see that Irish Water is telling people, especially those who have no more money to give, that if they cannot pay their water charges they will be deprived of adequate water through a reduction in supply. Is that what we have come to as a society? People who cannot afford to pay water charges will be bullied and will have their water supply reduced. The Government is putting people in an awful position. I challenged the Leader last week and he did not answer the question. Some families cannot afford to pay their mortgages, have empty oil tanks which they cannot afford to fill or cannot afford to put food on the table. What advice would he give them when the water bills arrive on 1 January?
The Senator is way over time.
I am putting forward an amendment to the Order of Business. I ask the Minister of State to come before the House. I also invite the former Minister of State to come to the Visitors Gallery to listen to the debate.
Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business? He is eating into his colleagues' time.
I propose an amendment to the Order of Business. I call on the Minister of State with responsibility for Irish Water to come before the House today.
I strongly agree with the sentiments expressed by Senator Martin Conway regarding customer service. Every successful business guru would say the key to the success of any business operation is good customer service. Every small business in the country knows it must look after its customers if it is to survive, yet when any of us try to interact with some of the main service providers in the country, including the banks, eircom, Irish Water and Electric Ireland, it is an endurance test to try to log a query or get information by telephone. We need a debate in the House on how the various State agencies and utility providers deal with their customers.
In the 2011 budget the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, introduced an innovative measure in the form of a VAT reduction to 9% for the hospitality sector. This move created in the region of 34,000 jobs and gave a very welcome stimulus to the economy generally. The recent tourism strategy announced by the Government is designed to create an additional 50,000 jobs in the next decade. It is important, therefore, to have a debate in the House with the Minister for Finance or a Minister of State with responsibility for finance to determine how effective the measure was and how well the hospitality sector has kept its end of the bargain. There is a perception that while the Government honoured its commitment, not all businesses in the hospitality sector lowered their prices to reflect the VAT reduction.
The Senator is over time.
I would like that discussion to take place at some stage after the budget. The hospitality sector is making a very strong case for the retention of the 9% rate, which I support, but I want to ensure we are getting the return from the sector to match the commitment made by the Government.
I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Darragh O'Brien.
It was seconded by Senator Mark Daly.
I share the commendation given by the Leader of the Opposition to the Defence Forces which acquitted themselves very well, as they have in the past, in the Golan Heights region where they are holding the peace between the Syrians and the Israelis. They were in a very difficult position and handled themselves extremely well. It is a very well organised and trained army. I visited Bosnia-Herzegovina with members of the Defence Forces on an election mission during which they were doing civilian work. Their knowledge and training were exemplary and equal to that of any army. It is a very disciplined force. We all wish it well. It was a great homecoming. I am delighted that the Minister for Defence went to meet those who were returning at Casement Aerodrome in Baldonnel. It is good recognition of their position.
The situation in the region is extremely fraught, particularly in the Kurdish town of Kobani which is under siege by ISIS. Turkey is standing idly by in this regard, but it should provide support for the Kurdish people to prevent ISIS from taking over Kobani. ISIS will eventually move into Turkey. It is the most serious threat in the region. I spoke to a member of the Kurdish community who addressed a meeting of the Council of Europe last week. He explained how they were let down by the Turkish Government. Kurds are being refused re-entry to Kobani to defend themselves against ISIS. Our Minister should become active in this regard. The situation is fraught and very serious and it is very important that we play a part.
I agree with the analysis of Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell. The Governor of the Central Bank has decided that next January anyone who wants to buy a house must have a deposit of 20%. This gives an advantage to those who have houses to sell now.
The Senator is over time.
I am asking-----
The Senator is eating into his colleagues' time.
I am sure they will understand.
I am not so sure that they will appreciate it.
I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Finance to come before the House to discuss the issues raised by Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell and me.
On a point of order-----
The Senator is abusing the procedure; she is.not going to raise a point of order.
There is positive news that the number jobless has fallen by nearly 10% in Galway city and county in the past 12 months. The national trend is similar, with a decrease indicated in the recent CSO figures, bringing the unemployment rate to 11.1% from a high of over 15% when the Government took office.
By my reckoning, the national decrease in August was the largest monthly decrease since the recession began. However, there are still far too many people out of work and, as we have heard indicated, the forthcoming budget will aim to create and sustain more jobs in the next 12 months. The simple fact is that the more people return to employment, the more revenue the State takes in and the more services it can provide. Perhaps the Leader might ask the Minister for Finance to come to the House after the budget to discuss the economy generally.
I support the call for Irish Water to come in given the major disconnect between the people and the Government on their understanding of the company. I was canvassing in Dublin South-West last night where that message was given clearly.
For whom was the Senator canvassing?
It was for Independent candidate, Ronan McMahon.
A former Fine Gael man.
I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for Education and Skills attend the House to discuss the increasing cost of third level education and its growing unaffordability. Today, the students of Ireland are marching on Leinster House to talk about the impact this is having on their lives. I have just heard that my son is among them. I feel I should be marching on Leinster House as a parent on foot of the cost of third level education. There is a €3,000 student registration fee and many of our kids are dropping out because they are making poor choices. There is a repeat tuition fee where a student made a poor choice the first time around, which costs upwards of €3,000. That is before the student gets money for bus fares, accommodation, a cup of coffee and food.
Let us call a spade a spade. Education is meant to be a right, not a privilege. Third level education provides us with our edge as a nation and it is critical to keep students in college. Students are dropping out for two reasons - poor choices at second level due to the lack of appropriate career guidance and because they cannot afford to stay. Parents feel it. We must make decisions as a nation. We have a budget next week in respect of which I really hope the Minister takes this matter into account when looking at maintenance grants and the very hefty student registration fee. I look forward to hearing from the Leader in respect of my proposal to amend the Order of Business.
I assure Senator Mark Daly that I enjoyed my breakfast this morning. However, it was conduct unbecoming of the Senator to refer to His Excellency Ambassador Chilcott in that manner. As far as he was concerned, he was attending a business breakfast.
Is this relevant to the Order of Business?
I would like to explain this.
Was the ambassador aware he was attending a fundraiser?
He was following in a long line of distinguished speakers, who include Commissioners and major figures.
I have ruled on this issue.
Were they all aware it was a Fine Gael fundraiser?
This is not relevant to the Order of Business.
I would like it to be said the fundraising aspect was totally incidental.
On the ambassador being made aware it was a fundraiser, did he withdraw?
The Senator must resume his seat.
As far as he was concerned------
I know all about the Senator's special relations with the ambassador.
The Senator made his speech.
When the ambassador was made aware it was a fundraiser, did he withdraw? If not, why not?
Will the Senator, please, resume his seat
It was post the Scottish referendum and in advance of a general election and the UK Government's position.
That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
These were very important, topical matters. I hope the ambassador's speech gains as much coverage.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
The Leader will agree with me and I ask him to do so.
I support Senator Mark Daly's request to amend the Order of Business to take No. 11 on the undocumented Irish today.
I primarily express my concern at the decision by the Central Bank to introduce the 20% deposit rule. While it probably has some merit, its effect can be highlighted if I read an excerpt from an e-mail a lady sent me this morning. It shows that many people are concerned. The policy appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to a situation in Dublin which has approximately 25% of the population. The lady says:
After many months saving - even moving home to our parents - my husband and I wake up this morning to find the 10% deposit we have struggled to save will not be sufficient to buy our home. We have just paid a booking deposit on a house which is not ready until January and may not now be able to draw down the mortgage which has been given to us. Rules laid down by the Central Bank are implemented that very same month. I am pregnant with our first child due in two weeks' time and will now be forced to go back out to the also overheated rental market with no home security, a new baby and very little hope of saving 20% of a deposit at any time in the near future.
I do not know who the lady is, but she is in the Dublin area, which is all I will say. She is typical of thousands of people who find themselves in that situation.
Absolutely.
We should have a debate on this issue which I ask the Minister for Finance to attend. I support what Senator Mary Louise O'Donnell said, although, unfortunately, I missed some of it. We need an urgent debate because while this type of measure might have some effect in Dublin, in parts of the constituency I represent and the west houses are still being sold at less than what it costs to build them. We must be very careful to avoid, in an effort to reverse the problems of the 100% mortgage, which was a ludicrous idea, doing more harm than good. We should stand together and ensure this measure is debated fully before it is implemented in January.
On a point of order, I did not interrupt Senator Denis O'Donovan as I agreed with what he was saying, but when he refers to his constituency, the Chair should remind him that it is the Agricultural Panel.
That is not a point of order.
It is.
It is not.
I raise an issue that is coming down the track and which could cause serious problems, that is, immigration policy, on which a debate is warranted in the very near future. Statistics from the Department of Finance and elsewhere show that the country is on an upward swing. There is an old saying that a rising tide lifts all boats. I hope that, on foot of the improvement in our financial circumstances, people will come home from Australia, America, Canada and other places and benefit. I am fearful, however, that there is nothing in place to prevent 40,000 or 50,000 of our European neighbours coming to the country to benefit from this upward trajectory in our financial status. European law is what must be tackled in this regard as there is nothing to stop immigrants arriving at any time. We need control and even to be selfish to bring back our own people from far-flung places.
Is the Senator saying it is okay for people to move to America and Canada?
Senator Tom Sheahan to continue, without interruption.
We do not have the capacity in the education system, the health system and housing supply. I urge the Leader to arrange a debate on the issue as soon as possible. Perhaps my thought structure or approach might be simplistic, but a certain reservation is needed in this area.
Last week I put the spotlight on the failure of the Government to extend free breast checks to women aged over 64 years and highlighted the fact that women were at a higher risk between the ages of 55 and 75 years. It gives me great pleasure that in response Councillor Martina Kinane of Clarinbridge, County Galway, has requested all sons, daughters, nephews, nieces, friends and neighbours of women over the age of 65 years to make contact with the office of the Minister for Health, Deputy Leo Varadkar, in the next few days by way of e-mail or letter to urge him to put a stop to this discrimination against women. This life-saving programme was promised for women and the Minister must make good on the Government's commitment by securing funding in the budget to be announced next week to provide for its roll-out.
I wish to raise the matter of motor taxation prior to next week’s budget announcement. An unfair anomaly has appeared during the years and now there is an opportunity to remove it. To my surprise, I have been informed that 60% of people tax their car every three months. For those who choose to tax their car for three months rather than half yearly or for the year, there is an additional fee. It costs more to tax one’s car every quarter rather than annually. As it looks like there is some leeway in the forthcoming budget, the opportunity should be taken to correct this anomaly. Those who tax their car every quarter are most likely to be struggling. Their car is not a luxury item but a tool of employment in commuting to work. The same fee for taxing one’s car should apply to quarterly, half yearly and annual options. This should be put to the Minister for Finance.
I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by my colleague, Senator David Cullinane.
Picking up on the Irish Water issue, there is no doubt that the new European Commissioner, Mr. Phil Hogan, left a legacy of disasters in his wake, with septic tanks, water charges, etc. Another legacy he left behind was the reorganisation of local government and, in particular, the way local development companies were treated. A haphazard approach is being taken by local authorities to their local development companies. In some counties responsibility for the delivery of all programmes will be put in the hands of one company. For example, in Galway one company will deliver local development programmes such as Leader and SICAP, social inclusion and community activation programme, in a vast area from Portumna to Cleggan, whereas in other counties of similar size such as Mayo and Donegal several companies will deliver the programmes. This random approach to the delivery of programmes will be another unmitigated disaster. We raised these issues when the Local Government Act 2014 was being put through. It is time for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, to call a halt to what is happening and rethink the approach because it will not work. Will the Minister attend the House to discuss the matter? The decisions by the local community development committees in county councils are being taken by a handful of individuals. Out of a committee of 15, for example, in Galway, only five were allowed to sit in on the decision because of so-called conflicts of interest involving the ten other members who were involved in local development in their areas. It does not make sense that people with that expertise were kept out of a debate and making a decision when the whole idea in having them on the committees was to enable them to bring their expertise to bear.
I support Senator Hildegarde Naughton in highlighting the recent positive unemployment figures. Additionally, the ESRI has claimed that the economy will grow by 5% both this year and next. It has called for a neutral budget. These are phenomenal growth figures and Ireland is bucking the trend internationally and among our European neighbours. This makes it all the more significant. As a result of this strong growth, the ESRI has stated the budget deficit will fall to just over 2% next year with a neutral budget. A fiscally neutral budget is described by the ESRI as the optimum policy on next week’s budget. In its latest economic commentary the institute states that as growth picked up by much more than expected earlier in the year, a large budget adjustment is no longer needed to meet deficit targets. It has forecast GNP, gross national product, and GDP, gross domestic product, growth of around 5% this year and next and stated the level of unemployment could fall to just over 9.5% next year. It is a very difficult environment in which to get any attention for positive news and statistics, with the media’s constant obsession with more trivial and negative issues, but it is important to highlight such economic news.
We have democracy in action in the forthcoming Seanad by-election.
I second Senator Fidelma Healy Eames’s proposed amendment to the Order of Business.
Last week I raised the issue of RTE closing down its 252 long wave, LW, radio transmission to the detriment of the Diaspora. I promised then that I would continue to press the issue. I wish to inform the House that earlier this morning at the meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications I got the agreement of colleagues that the committee would request RTE representatives to appear before it next week to explain this outrageous decision which has caused enormous anger among the Diaspora. A letter was received from the enterprise and communications committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly which was circulated at the committee meeting, in which it expressed its concern about the shutdown of the 252 LW transmission, which will deny listeners in Northern Ireland the opportunity to listen to RTE Radio One programmes. I wish RTE would understand what it is doing with this decision. I expect it to reply positively to the invitation for its representatives to appear before the committee. When it does, I hope it will explain the spin it has put on its decision and that it cost €900,000 to transmit programmes on 252 LW. The whole business smells fishy and is not right. I will continue to raise the issue until there is a satisfactory resolution, namely, RTE suspending its decision at the very least. I am particularly disappointed that when I tabled this as an Adjournment matter - it is not the Leader’s fault as it came through the Cathaoirleach - it was turned down, as the Minister had claimed he had no competence in the area. How far have democracy and accountability gone that the Minister in charge of RTE allows this policy decision, not an operational one, to go ahead which affects a large segment of the Diaspora? The Minister seems to have washed his hands of the matter, claiming he has no competence in it.
The ruling on whether the issue was eligible to be raised as an Adjournment matter was made on the basis of legislation. I made this very clear at the time.
All I am asking is that the Leader convey the anger of the Diaspora which I am trying to reflect in my contribution to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White.
I commend the former Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O’Dowd, for his courage in making his statement yesterday on Uisce Éireann. It was crystal clear and echoed much of what had been articulated by Members on this side of the House during the debate on the establishment of Uisce Éireann. At the time I said it was incomprehensible that we would incorporate a water services provider under the auspices of Bord Gáis Energy. Bord Gáis has a very bad culture with regard to work practices, as I said to the Minister at the time and on which I gave him information. Excessive salary bonuses are paid in the organisation. I know people who worked in it - that is probably a misnomer - had a lot of time off for different reasons and came out with very handsome packages. The hard-pressed individuals who are trying to make ends meet should not be burdened with waste in Uisce Éireann with the already excessive salaries for consultants and the bonus culture. It was interesting that yesterday morning a spokesperson for Uisce Éireann defended-----
Does the Senator have a specific question for the Leader?
I do not think there is any point in bringing the Minister of State to the House to discuss this issue. It was a creature of Fine Gael.
As well as of the Labour Party.
I would like to see the Minister responsible, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, come to the House for a proper debate on the matter. If control is not exerted now, people will not only pay for their water in the future but also for the excesses the elite fortunate enough to work at the top of this organisation will enjoy.
The Senator is way over time. These are points he can make in the debate.
That is not good enough. People’s pension pots have been raided. They are being pressured and facing difficulties. We need to have a debate on this and a range of other issues.
The Senator is way over time.
I hope the Leader agrees that it is time the Government and public representatives on both sides of the House represented the people and not the elite who happen to be in positions of authority.
I understand the Minister for Health will be coming to the House in the coming weeks to address the issues of insurance, future strategic plans and waiting lists. I ask that he also brief the House on the state of, I hope, unnecessary emergency plans to deal with cases of Ebola in the event that there are additional cases.
It is nice that calm has been restored. I could not hear what Senators were saying because of the noise on both sides of the House. If Members want replies, I must hear what they are saying in the first place.
Senator Darragh O'Brien commended members of the Defence Forces, as did other Members, for their bravery and professionalism. I am glad that we are having the debate at 1 p.m. We all commend the work of the Defence Forces.
On the State Airports (Shannon Group) Bill 2014 and the plight of the deferred members of the pensions scheme, we will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Social Protection.
Senator Ivana Bacik called for a debate on Amnesty International's report on economic, social and cultural rights.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell referred to the Central Bank's report and its comment on the loosening of lending standards. That was a gross understatement. As Senator Martin Conway mentioned, it will be difficult to get the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State at the Department of Finance to appear in the House for the next week or so. After the budget we will arrange a debate on banking.
Senator David Norris referred to funding for the Cuba Support Group and the fact that banks were closing its accounts. He mentioned US interference in the matter. I am sure the people involved are bringing the matter to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Minister for Finance. The Senator should also do so.
Will the Leader do so also?
If the Senator gives me the full details, I will raise the matter which should be examined.
Senator Martin Conway spoke about the lack of customer service in banks and Irish Water and called for the introduction of a call-back service in Irish Water.
Senator Mark Daly proposed an amendment to the Order of Business to allow us to take No. 11, Immigration Reform for U.S. Citizens Living in Ireland Bill 2014 - First Stage. I will accede to that request.
Senator Aideen Hayden referred to political donations and pointed out that the Government had introduced legislation on the matter. It is reforming the way we do politics. She also called for a debate on lending institutions and banks.
Senator Michael Mullins referred to Palliative Care Week and the need for a debate on perinatal hospital care. The Minister for Health will appear in the House in the coming weeks. Perhaps the matter might be raised then, or we can arrange a specific debate. It is difficult to get Ministers to come to the House one at a time on different issues.
Senator Colm Burke referred to long-term planning, while Senator David Cullinane spoke about Irish Water. Last week I outlined to him that the request for PPS numbers was legitimate under data protection legislation, but I do not know if he was listening.
I did not mention PPS numbers.
The Data Protection Commissioner stated Irish Water was entitled to request PPS numbers under the legislation, as it was related to people receiving allowances. That is why PPS numbers are being requested.
That is not what I asked.
Sinn Féin, as I pointed out previously, already charges for water indirectly in Northern Ireland as part of domestic rates.
We stopped water charges.
That is more of the rubbish talk. There is also a property tax in Northern Ireland. Sinn Féin recently deferred the introduction of a direct charging system for water until 2016. I wonder why. The average domestic rates charge in Northern Ireland is £950 per household, far in excess of the equivalent figure in the South. Sinn Féin's policy of keeping Irish Water but abandoning water charges would add €850 million to the deficit which would have to be bridged by additional taxes.
I have the fully costed alternative budget.
We have not seen the budget-----
I will give the Leader a copy in order that he can learn something.
I am glad that it has been published at last. Perhaps the Senator might tell us from where the €850 million would come.
It is all in it. Perhaps the Leader might arrange a debate, which he has refused to do for the past three years.
The Leader to continue, without interruption.
Senator Michael Mullins referred to the VAT reduction for the hospitality sector and how effective the measures introduced were. It would be laudable to have a debate on the issue.
Senator Terry Leyden referred to the conflict in Syria and the dangers posed by Islamic State. He called for a debate with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, who has indicated that he will be coming to the House in the next couple of weeks.
Senator Hildegarde Naughton referred to the 10% reduction in unemployment in Galway city and county and stated job creation and sustaining jobs was the number one priority of the Government.
Senator Fidelma Healy Eames called for a debate on third level education. We have asked the Minister for Education and Skills to come to the Chamber, but I have not yet received a date for the debate.
Senator Denis O'Donovan called for a debate on the banks. The Central Bank's report included a consultation process for its proposals. We will try to have the Minister for Finance come before the House in the coming months.
Senator Tom Sheahan referred to bringing back Irish people and the possibility of people from other European countries coming to the country. Freedom of movement is a major plank of the European treaties. There is not much that can be done in that regard, but the issue is worthy of debate.
Senator Mary White referred to the extension of the BreastCheck programme to women over 64 years of age. I am sure the Minister will do everything possible to extend the programme.
Senator Michael D'Arcy referred to the taxation of cars and mentioned an anomaly in the system. I will bring the matter to the attention of the relevant Minister, probably the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly.
Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh referred to local development issues. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will appear in the Chamber at the end of the month or in early November to deal with the issues of housing and homelessness, a debate on which has been requested for some time, but it would be another day's work to get him to appear for a debate on the issues mentioned this morning.
Senator Catherine Noone referred to the latest commentary from the ESRI and the positive news contained therein.
Senator Paschal Mooney updated us on the long wave radio transmission by RTE. It is good that representatives of RTE are appearing before the Oireachtas joint committee, which is the proper place in which to raise the issue.
Senator Jim Walsh referred to the bonus culture in Bord Gáis and Uisce Éireann. I am sure we will have a debate with the relevant Minister on that issue.
I agree with the point raised by Senator John Crown.
Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for Social Protection on the IAS scheme be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 22.
Tá
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Crown, John.
- Cullinane, David.
- Daly, Mark.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullen, Rónán.
- Norris, David.
- Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
- Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Donovan, Denis.
- Power, Averil.
- Quinn, Feargal.
- Reilly, Kathryn.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- Walsh, Jim.
- White, Mary M.
- Wilson, Diarmuid.
- Zappone, Katherine.
Níl
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D'Arcy, Jim.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Henry, Imelda.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
- O'Keeffe, Susan.
- O'Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- Whelan, John.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paschal Mooney and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for Finance on the Central Bank's consultation paper on residential mortgage lending policy be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
No, I am withdrawing it until after the budget.
Senator Mark Daly has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 11 be taken before No. 1." The Leader has indicated that he is prepared to accept the amendment. Is that correct?
I accept the amendment.
The amendment is agreed to. Senator David Cullinane has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government on water service charges be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 18; Níl, 24.
Tá
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Crown, John.
- Cullinane, David.
- Daly, Mark.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullen, Rónán.
- Norris, David.
- Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
- Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Donovan, Denis.
- Power, Averil.
- Quinn, Feargal.
- Reilly, Kathryn.
- Walsh, Jim.
- White, Mary M.
Níl
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D'Arcy, Jim.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Henry, Imelda.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
- O'Keeffe, Susan.
- O'Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- Whelan, John.
- Zappone, Katherine.
Tellers: Tá, Senators David Cullinane and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Senator Fidelma Healy Eames has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for Education and Skills on the increasing costs and growing unaffordability of third level education be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 24.
Tá
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Crown, John.
- Cullinane, David.
- Daly, Mark.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Leyden, Terry.
- MacSharry, Marc.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullen, Rónán.
- Norris, David.
- Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
- Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Donovan, Denis.
- Power, Averil.
- Quinn, Feargal.
- Reilly, Kathryn.
- Walsh, Jim.
- White, Mary M.
Níl
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D'Arcy, Jim.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Henry, Imelda.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
- O'Keeffe, Susan.
- O'Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- Whelan, John.
- Zappone, Katherine.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Fidelma Healy Eames and Paschal Mooney; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Order of Business, as amended, be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 18.
Tá
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D'Arcy, Jim.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Henry, Imelda.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Noone, Catherine.
- Norris, David.
- O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
- O'Keeffe, Susan.
- O'Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- Whelan, John.
- Zappone, Katherine.
Níl
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Crown, John.
- Cullinane, David.
- Daly, Mark.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Leyden, Terry.
- MacSharry, Marc.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullen, Rónán.
- Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
- Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Donovan, Denis.
- Power, Averil.
- Quinn, Feargal.
- Reilly, Kathryn.
- Walsh, Jim.
- White, Mary M.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Paschal Mooney and Denis O'Donovan.
Question declared carried.