Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Apr 2015

Vol. 239 No. 11

Sport Ireland Bill 2014: Committee Stage

Sections 1 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 8
Question proposed: "That section 8 stand part of the Bill."

This is an omnibus section which outlines the functions of Sport Ireland. On the basis of promoting elite athletes and excellence in competitive sports, the Minister of State may be able to advise me what will be the relationship between Sport Ireland and the Olympic Council of Ireland, a body which selects Irish Olympians and other high ranking sporting organisations. Apart from the funding and organisational elements of Sport Ireland and the promotion, encouragement and development of the participation of young people in sport, will Sport Ireland have a hands-on involvement at high level such as the Olympics? The Olympic Games are held every four years and there are often difficulties associated with selection and which sports are to be represented. Does the Minister of State envisage Sport Ireland having some form of role at that level, quite apart from the funding level?

I raised previously with the Minister a subject which is close to the Acting Chairman's heart, the development of League of Ireland soccer. I put down a Commencement debate matter, asking that the Department, through the Minister and perhaps through Sport Ireland, would have discussions with the League of Ireland or the FAI to see if anything can be done to save League of Ireland soccer from itself. The new season is under way and while I am not the expert in this House on the League of Ireland or maybe the greatest League of Ireland soccer fan, I am concerned that, once again, the problems, crises and disasters which have happened almost every year over the past five or six years are emerging again. Whether it is management structures, finance or whatever, the league, as a serious and credible entity, is disappearing before our eyes. The league comes under the ambit of the FAI but in our promotion of sport under the functions of Sport Ireland we should recognise that a semi-professional League of Ireland, if properly functioning, properly managed, properly marketed and properly supported, could be as successful as any of the semi-professional leagues in some of the European countries such as the Scandinavian countries. Every League of Ireland club is not just a sporting organisation; it is a focal point for its own community and a mini-employer, a generator of economic activity. However, it is crumbling. There may be some mechanism by which the new organisation could sit down with the main players and try to knock heads together. Otherwise, there will be no League of Ireland of any credibility in the next number of years.

The relationship between the Olympic Council of Ireland and the new Sport Ireland will be the same and there will be no change in that relationship. The current Irish Sports Council is funded by the Government and the Irish Sports Council distributes that funding to the national governing bodies. It will be the same relationship.

Senator Bradford has raised this issue on many occasions. I come from the same school as him in this regard. I have great respect for the League of Ireland and for the players who play with the league. I like and support the sport of soccer. An increasing number of club players are playing in the League of Ireland. In Mayo, a number of players from clubs in the county are playing with Longford Town, Galway United and Sligo Rovers. A lad from a local club won a championship medal last year with Dundalk. I agree with Senator Bradford and, if he wishes, I could ask John Delaney to come in here to meet a few Senators and to discuss the future of the League of Ireland.

As Minister of State I cannot interfere with the way the FAI, the GAA or the IRFU runs their business. The FAI has to deal with the issue. Many clubs come to me looking for funding. Senator Bradford knows that it is becoming much harder for local clubs to raise funds. A further issue raised with me is that the affiliated organisations are asking clubs for too much money. This is something that we could discuss with the FAI, the GAA and the IRFU. They are encouraging children to participate in sport. My role as Minister of State with responsibility for sport is to determine policy.

The Sports Council's role at present is to make sure that funding is spent on grassroots sport, not on the professional game. It should be used for projects like the late-night leagues in Dublin, involving the Garda and the FAI. It is the same with the GAA which is working with disadvantaged communities. That is really the basis for it. It is something I will do if the Senator wants me to do it, but I cannot interfere in the day-to-day running of the FAI.

I raised this issue with the FAI. Its representatives, including Fran Gavin, would tell the Senator that they have made many changes to, and set up new structures in, the organisation over the past number of years. Many clubs were trying to be like clubs in England, over-extending themselves and overspending. Many clubs, especially in Dublin, were in serious difficulty, and some of them still are. That is because they were trying to be professional clubs, although they did not have the resources. I have no difficulty asking the FAI to meet a group from the Oireachtas. There used to be committee in the Houses and Senator Jimmy Harte - I send my best wishes to him as I know he and his family have gone through a very difficult time - was chairman. The Senator might come back to me about organising that if he wishes.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 9 agreed to.
SECTION 10
Question proposed: "That section 10 stand part of the Bill."

I welcome the Minister of State and would like him to expand on something I asked about on Second Stage. Section 10 provides that: "Sport Ireland may appoint such consultants and advisers, as it considers necessary for the performance of its functions." The same section also provides that: "Sport Ireland shall comply with any directions concerning the employment of consultants and advisers which may from time to time be given to it by the Minister, given with the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform." The Minister of State gave the impression on Second Stage that this relates very much to sporting consultants. It is strange for it to be specifically mentioned in the Bill. What would his Department consider appropriate by way of the appointment of consultants or advisers? Is there a limit whereby Sport Ireland would have to refer back to the Minister of State to make an appointment? Would we have a situation in which Sport Ireland would appoint consultants itself up to a certain cost without referring back to the line Minister?

I referred to this last week. What I do not want to see happening is large amounts of money going on consultants' fees. That is taxpayers' money and I want to see it going into grassroots sports. We are bringing powers back to ourselves so that when the new body is formed, if it wants to bring in consultants, it will refer back to the Department. We will not be interfering with its day-to-day running. Even if I am not the line Minister, I do not want to see large sums being spent on consultants' fees, as has been the case in the past number of years. Sometimes if one is paying consultants, the question one asks depends on the answer one wants to get. If the need is genuine and good for sport and is something on which it does not have the expertise itself, it will need to get outside expertise. However, I do not want people spending large sums of money we do not have on consultants' fees.

I thank the Minister of State. I know and respect that he does not want any excessive money spent in this area, nor do I or any of my colleagues. It is appropriate from time to time to seek expert advice if the expertise is not within the organisation. Unfortunately, we were not given due time to table amendments to this legislation and that is why we opposed the Order of Business this morning. The fact Committee and Report Stages are being taken together does not allow me to table Report Stage amendments. I understand this is not the Minister of State's responsibility.

I would have thought it appropriate to set a limit in section 10, over which it would have to be referred to the Minister. Subsection (3) provides that: "Any remuneration due to a consultant or adviser shall, having regard to guidelines issued from time to time by the Minister or the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, be paid out of moneys at Sport Ireland's disposal." I am assuming those guidelines would pertain to the upper limits of what can be paid. It is very vague and, as we cannot amend it at this stage, I would ask the Minister of State to give it consideration. He has stated that he is opposed to excessive moneys being paid and I do not understand why the Department would not have set a limit over which it must be referred to the Minister. Is that something the Minister of State would consider?

What I do not want is to tie the hands of the new sports body. There are enough controls in that there will be discussions between Department officials and the new body. I would expect that guidelines will be drawn up and that there will be discussions with the Department before it could hire consultants. That is the whole point of this. There would have to be a policy decision by the Minister and Department to ensure it is something that cannot be done in-house. I do not know what might arise in the future and do not want to tie its hands. When a problem arises, it must have the power to deal with it.

The Senator would have to agree that at least we are tightening up on this. It is very difficult to tie it down and put a figure on it in any particular year. One year it might want less than the figure set out. If we put a figure in the legislation, it will feel it has to spend it as it will not want to give money back. I do not want it to hire consultants for the sake of it. Each year it will sit down with the Minister and Department officials and will devise a policy. There may be some issue that will come up we cannot foresee.

Senator Darragh O'Brien has raised a valid query and I acknowledge that the Minister of State's response is possibly as good as it can be under the circumstances. Thinking about these two words "consultants" and "advisers" and the role played by such figures in the economic history of the country over the past decade, they have become two very frightening and negative words. When we are setting up a new body, such as Sport Ireland, it has to be our hope that the quality of the people initially appointed will be such that they will be able to do their jobs. We have seen too many situations in the past ten years in which decision-making has been farmed out. First it was farmed out from politicians to State boards and then from State boards to anonymous consultants and advisers.

The Minister of State made the valid point that we cannot completely tie the hands of the new body but we must try to ensure by virtue of the appointments at board, management and staff levels that people will be able to do their jobs 99.9% of the time. The less reliance we have on consultants and advisers the better. We need accountability and I am happy that there is provision in the Bill for Sport Ireland representatives to appear before the appropriate Oireachtas committees to answer for their steerage of the organisation. We should at least take on board the warning, if not the objection, from Senator Darragh O'Brien that consultants and advisers should be excluded to the maximum extent possible. People who are being paid with taxpayers' money should be doing the job for which they are paid.

Having been on the board of the Irish Sports Council over the past number of years, I know consultants were employed in a number of different ways.

In particular, they were employed in the areas of sports science and high-performance sports as well as to evaluate the activity levels of the youth and adult populations in Ireland. While the employees of the Irish Sports Council do a wonderful job and are diligent in the delivery of increasing sports participation and high-performance sports in Ireland, there are certain aspects outside their realm where they may need expert help. In political life people need consultants and advisers. We could look into this too deeply with some fear but I believe we need have no fear when it comes to the Irish Sports Council seeking advice in these particular areas.

With the merger of the Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Development Authority, there is another area for which they will perhaps need independent advice because over the coming years, we will see Abbotstown grow into an enormous monument for sports and for the people. I am not referring to elite or high-performance sports people but the population throughout the country, including the young boys and girls who wish to participate. They can utilise these facilities through their clubs. At certain times the new body will need expert independent advice on the delivery of these facilities, aside from what they receive by way of tenders from public companies. I agree with the Minister of State that the Irish Sports Council and Sport Ireland, when it comes into being, will be frugal in their use of consultants and advisers.

Senator Bradford made a point on a particular provision but it is a standard provision. It is common across all Acts when we are setting up State boards or new agencies. It gives them the power to appoint consultants when they need advice. Senator Eamonn Coghlan is correct in that Abbotstown will be an example in future. It is developing at such a fast pace. I made a request in this House last week to Senators and I hope they will take it up. They should see what is actually happening there and what is proposed for the future. It is worth going to see. My Department will engage closely with the new body. There will be Government guidelines on consultants.

Senator Darragh O'Brien made a valid point. I can give two figures on what was spent on consultants in 2014. The Irish Sports Council spent €357,383 and the National Sports Campus Development Authority spent €286,405. That comes to almost €600,000 of State money spent on consultants. As someone who came through the local authorities to the Dáil, one thing I hate to see is large amounts of money being spent on consultants. I used to see that in Leader programmes. People used to come to me looking to do a project. The first thing they wanted was a feasibility study. In some cases, these are needed but some projects were only small and it turned out that more money was being spent on consultants and feasibility studies than on the actual projects.

This is common across all State agencies and our Department will have guidelines. Each year officials will sit down with officials from the new body for discussions and the priorities will be outlined. If there is an emergency or a problem, it can be addressed. Senator Eamonn Coghlan referred to the new Abbotstown campus. He knows all about high-performance sports. Sometimes we need to get consultants in or advice has to be sought on issues like that.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 11 to 21, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 22
Question proposed: "That section 22 stand part of the Bill."

As I said earlier, I would have tabled amendments to this section if we had been given sufficient time but that is not the fault of the Minister of State. This section relates to the appointment of the chief executive. Section 22(2) states: "Subject to subsection (5), the chief executive shall be appointed by Sport Ireland with the approval of the Minister, and may, with the approval of the Minister, be removed from office for stated reasons by Sport Ireland." That is the main part of the section. I will go through section 22(3) and (4) in a moment.

In August last year, the Minister of State said that the chief executive of Sport Ireland would be appointed by him following an interview process. He stated that he would set up a mechanism where there would be an interview process and that anyone would be free to make an application to that. However, he stated he would be appointing the first chief executive and that it would be a matter for individuals whether to make an application for that job.

That is clearly not the position in the Bill the Minister of State has brought before the Seanad. Section 22(3) states: "The Minister may, before the establishment date, designate a person to be appointed the first chief executive of Sport Ireland for a term to be determined by the Minister." Since it states "may", the Minister of State may say he will not do that. Section 22(4) states: "Where a competition to appoint a chief executive is held prior to the establishment day, the successful candidate may be appointed by the Minister as the chief executive officer designate." The section then goes on to list the powers of the chief executive.

I am aware of the commitment of the Minister of State and of many Members to sport and of the important role it plays in this country. It also has an important role in terms of culture, education and the economy. The chief executive will drive the ethos and the future direction of that body and will make most of the decisions of that body.

The chief executive will be appointed by Sport Ireland. Let us forget about the interim chief executive, which is provided for in this Bill. In future, will the board of Sport Ireland appoint the chief executive? The Bill makes no reference to an interview process, public consultation process, public advertisement process or anything like that. This is a deficiency in the legislation. Every organisation needs to be refreshed. We should not be giving people jobs for 20, 30 or 40 years, although if they are doing the job well, then that is fantastic and they should keep doing it.

Let us consider the next subsection. The Minister can designate a chief executive for Sport Ireland. The Minister of State said on Second Stage that the position would be for 12 months. Section 22(3) refers to "a term to be determined by the Minister". If it is the case that the Minister designates an interim chief executive for 12 months, from what date will that appointment commence? Will it be set down clearly that after 12 months, a public interview process will be held and Sport Ireland will advertise for a chief executive? If that is the case, who will decide whether the interim chief executive will be part of that decision? Will the existing board of Sport Ireland be part of that decision? Those are my questions on section 22. I would have tabled amendments but there was insufficient time to do so.

I have listened with interest to Senator Darragh O'Brien. He makes a valid case and has made some interesting observations. If this is to be a new entity with a new beginning and if it is to do all things properly and within the confines of the required standards, it would be far preferable if the first appointment were preceded by a public competition. That would ensure the vacancy was open to all suitably-qualified people and that all suitably qualified people could be considered. The Minister of State might explain to us why that is not the case and why a direct appointment must be made.

Perhaps the term of office for the first appointee could be relatively limited in scope - not as a compromise but as a bit of reassurance - so that it would not be a job for life. We previously referred to advisers and consultants. The Minister of State referred to the fact that it is standard practice across all agencies when bodies are being formed that space is provided for consultants and advisers. I would not think it is normal practice for chief executives to come under the ambit of Government Departments. For example, if this was legislation from the Department of Health setting up the HSE or local government legislation setting up new council structures, the initial chief executive positions would be up for general competition and would not be decided in advance. I look forward to hearing the Minister of State explain why it is being written this way. I will not say it is a closed shop because I will not exaggerate but based on my lay analysis of the situation, it is rather unusual that the first appointment is certainly not an example of open-door policy at its best. I look forward to hearing what the Minister of State has to say and perhaps he will convince me otherwise.

The reason I will not appoint the first CEO relates to bringing some clarity to the new organisation. Two boards and two agencies are coming together as one. Deputy Dooley raised this with me in the Dáil. I am doing exactly what Senators Bradford and Darragh O'Brien want me to do. I do not want to interfere with the process. I could appoint the first CEO. It is provided for in the Bill but I do not want to do that. I will appoint somebody in a temporary capacity for one year and get the chairman and board up and running. The board will appoint the CEO, as it is normal practice for agencies to run a competition. I fully expect that the board of Sport Ireland will follow the normal practice and run a competition. The first CEO will be an employee of Sport Ireland and not a board member. The second CEO will be appointed by the board and the first CEO will have no role in the appointment. The chairman of the board will make that appointment and not me and it will go through normal practices. The reason I did that was because I did not want Senators, like Senators Bradford and Darragh O'Brien, accusing me of appointing a chief executive and politicising it. I am not doing that.

To be fair, there has been no mention of a public advertisement for this in the Minister of State's response. He is in effect appointing the first chief executive who will be called "an interim chief executive", so that is his appointment. What is happening is something he did not want to happen last year. He is appointing the interim chief executive for the term of one year and I understand from his answer that the board will appoint a permanent chief executive. Will that be after a public advertisement? Will the board advertise for the chief executive role after 12 months? This is where I want to get to. Has the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform already approved the interim chief executive and if so, at what salary level is that person being appointed?

The answer to the last question is "Yes". I presume the salary will be the same as that being paid now.

The same salary but the person has not yet been appointed.

I will have to check that with my officials. I understand the salary will be the same. I was not part of the negotiations but it has been agreed with the Department. I will write officially to the Senator and give him details. I was not part of those discussions, so I do not know. I will appoint the first chief executive for one year and I am doing it simply because the Senator and his party had concerns about me appointing someone for five years. I did not want that. The new board must be appointed through the new arrangements and the chairman of the board will be appointed. After one year, it will be signed into law that the board must appoint the chief executive, like other State agencies. This is the way other State agencies operate. The Minister of State will have no say in it. I presume the board must go through Government procedures. Current procedures will be used.

I support the Minister of State on this particular aspect. The Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Development Authority have worked hand-in-hand for quite a number of years. As we all know, the Irish Sports Council was established under the Act in 1999 while the National Sports Campus Development Authority was established in 2006. Since 2006, both bodies have worked hand-in-hand on every aspect of sport in Ireland. Under the reform, we are bringing the two bodies together under one board. As I said last week, the most difficult part of the Minister of State's job will be to identify one chief executive and one board. Currently, there are two chief executives and two boards. The approach the Minister of State is taking brings about continuity because of the working relationship both bodies have had over the past number of years. Why does it bring about continuity? It does so because the knowledge that is there will remain there for the next year or so. The Minister said that the CEO will be designated for one year.

People can apply to join the new board of Sport Ireland through open application. This will be in the public domain. That board and its chairman will be appointed. This brings continuity to the appointment of a chief executive when after one year, anybody, including myself, can apply for the position of chief executive of Sport Ireland. It is very important that continuity in the area of sport is maintained, particularly with world championships and the Olympic Games coming up in 2016. Week after week and month after month, we talk about the wonderful successes of Irish sportsmen and women in this House, not just at international level but at local level. That is because of the working relationship that has been established between the two bodies and that continuity must continue throughout next year. I support the Minister of State in this regard.

I thank the Minister of State for his answer but what we have learned now is that the interim appointment has already been made.

Has the interim appointment not been made?

The appointment has not been made.

Has it been approved by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Can I clarify something?

The salary approved for the CEO of the new body reflects the wider role of the new CEO. The salary has been agreed for the CEO of the new body. When I appoint somebody for one year, naturally enough, that will be the salary for that person and for whoever continues afterwards. I just wanted to clarify that.

I was going to ask how much the salary was.

I do not know but I will get that information for the Senator.

We do not know how much the salary is. Is it greater than what is currently being paid? The Minister of State said that it reflects the enhanced role, which leads me to believe that this means an enhanced salary in Government-speak. The Seanad should know what the salary is. It is a public appointment that will be made by the Minister of State.

Perhaps I did not put my question correctly. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has approved that salary level. Has the Department been told who that interim chief executive is? This is the person who will be getting the job without interview and by ministerial appointment. Do we know who that person is? Does the Department know who that person is and what the salary level is? It is very important that we know.

It is important, if we are dealing with the roles and responsibilities of the chief executive of the new Sport Ireland, that we know how much that person will be paid. We should know that before we leave here today.

The salary is approved for the role but not for the person. It is very unusual - I have never heard it before - for Senators to talk about salaries. However, I have no problem with it because people know what Senator Darragh O'Brien and I are paid.

I have no problem in that regard. I do not have an issue with that. Let us be fair as well. There will be an amalgamation of two boards and greater responsibility. In particular with Abbotstown, there will be serious responsibilities because there are serious issues there that will have to be taken over. I am sure Senator Darragh O'Brien will be well aware of that.

A lot of those issues were created there and there are a lot of serious issues that have to be dealt with.

I agree with the Minister of State. They were created in the first instance.

The chief executive, whoever gets that job, will have a major responsibility in taking over two agencies. There are also a lot of other substitute agencies in that regard. It is a big responsibility-----

-----a big job. Personally, I do not have a problem with telling Senators. I do not know what the salary is but I will get that information to Senator Darragh O'Brien.

I thank the Minister of State.

I agree it is a big job and it is a very important job. I do not expect someone to do the job for nothing. We want people in these roles with the expertise.

Has Senator Darragh O'Brien somebody in mind?

Senator Darragh O'Brien, without interruption.

No. Senator Brennan is his party's spokesperson in this area and I have a particular interest in the finance side. The problem is that the interim chief executive is a ministerial appointment and not by public interview. It is not open to anyone to make an application to take over the role of chief executive of Sport Ireland because it is in the gift of the Minister. While I appreciate and fully agree with the answer that the salary is for the role and not the person, because the Minister of State said it is an amalgamation of two roles and an enhanced responsibility, is the salary now more than it was previously? If the Minister of State does not have the amount, his officials or the Department should know. Is it more? If it is an increase, what is the percentage increase? Many people appear before the committees where salary levels are discussed. With a public appointment, I do not see why we cannot be told what the amount is and whether it is more than that for the current chief executives' roles in both of the bodies. If it is, what is the the level of that increase?

I appreciate that the role of the person to be appointed is broader than either of the two previous portfolios. Notwithstanding the economic straightjacket under which we all must exist, we would expect there will possibly be an increase in the salary. If the salary has been approved already by the Department, presumably it is not a State secret. It would be helpful, before the debate concludes, that the figure would be made known.

My questions relate to the fact the Minister of State will be making this appointment. Deputy Ring made a reasonable case as to why he has a 12-month limit on the interim appointment and why he needs to proceed as the legislation is written. I have two questions. First, is there a timescale or has the Minister of State an idea as to when the appointment will be made? Will it be within a number of days or weeks of the legislation passing? When might Deputy Ring be in a position to make that appointment?

Second, on the basis that the appointment is in the Minister of State's hands, are those who might be outside the fold already, but who might be interested in this interim appointment, in a position to contact, or apply to, him? The Minister of State is, in a sense, the competition for this job. There is no competition authority and the Minister of State is the person making the appointment. If a person is interested, can he or she make his or her interest in being considered for the interim appointment known to the Minister of State or has he thought about how he will take this relatively difficult decision? The timeframe and process, I suppose, is what I am wondering about.

On the timeframe, the minute we get the legislation through, I will make a decision on it because we need to get the new agency up and running and I want to put an interim chief executive in place. Then I need to put in place a chairman and board. I want to have all of this done because one year from when it is set up, this new position will be made available. We could have made the appointment for life but I did not do that. Senator Darragh O'Brien must be fair. Under the Act, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and I could give ourselves the power to put this person in for life or set a timeframe but we do not want to do that.

Senator Bradford asked a question to which I will give an honest answer. I want to get this up and running as quickly as possible because there are a lot of very serious problems outstanding in some of these agencies. I want to get this board up and running and I want to get the chief executive in place as quickly as possible. I do not want two agencies running sport. One agency is enough.

The new chief executive, whoever that person will be, will have a big responsibility and have a major role. In the next number of weeks, I will discuss with the interim chief executive staffing problems, quotas and everything else to try to get this up and running as quickly as possible. Shortly after this legislation is passed, we will appoint the short-term chief executive. Then it will be up to the board. As with every other State agency, the board appoints the CEO. At the end of the day, naturally enough, it will have to go through the rules and regulations of the day.

I understand the approved figure for the role - it is not really over the top - is €125,000 per year. Senator Darragh O'Brien now has the answer. I do not know whether that represents an increase. Although I am open to correction, I think it does not.

I want to make it clear to Senator Darragh O'Brien that nobody has been appointed because there is no job, and the person cannot be appointed until we get the legislation through.

I thank the Minister of State for that clarification. It is better that we know. It does not seem to be an excessive amount. The Minister of State said he could have appointed someone with a job for life. No one wants to see that in any of the roles, or certainly I do not want it. If somebody is performing his or her functions well, there should be a proper evaluation and that term can be extended, which is fine.

Section 22(2) states: "the chief executive shall be appointed by Sport Ireland with the approval of the Minister, and may, with the approval of the Minister, be removed from office for stated reasons by Sport Ireland." The first interim chief executive will be appointed for a year. Has the Minister of State set down a specific term for the chief executive appointed after that? Is there a review? Is it a five-year term? What is it?

I refer to my second question to the Minister of State. I appreciate he needs to achieve progress and does not want a long delay between the passage of the Bill and the appointment of the interim top man or woman, but is there a window for those who might be interested, who feel that they have the abilities, the vision and leadership in Irish sport? Are they in a position to make their names known to the Minister of State or ask that they be considered? I appreciate there is not an open advertised competition but on the basis that the appointment lies in the Minister of State's hands, is it possible for those to whom I refer to let it be known to him that they would be interested in being considered for the interim appointment?

On the first question as to the terms and how long the person will be in place, the normal terms of a contract are agreed with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Normally, CEO contracts are for five to seven years. That is what it will be. There will be no change in that.

In regard to the appointment, what I am trying to do is to facilitate continuity. That is why I am not making the appointment. I am not opening up the process. What I want to do is to appoint somebody in a temporary capacity for one year. I want to give the board the opportunity to appoint the right person and to go through the channels. There will then be an opportunity for people to make an application.

Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 12.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • Whelan, John.
  • Zappone, Katherine.

Níl

  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Craughwell, Gerard P.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ivana Bacik and Paul Coghlan; Níl, Senators Darragh O'Brien and Diarmuid Wilson.
Question declared carried.
Sections 23 and 24 agreed to.
SECTION 25
Question proposed: "That section 25 stand part of the Bill."

I have a question on the superannuation of staff who do not fall within the public service pension scheme. We all know we do not actually have a pension scheme as all pensions are paid out of current revenue. I would certainly like this to be changed. That aside, will the scheme that will be set up for staff who do not fall within the public service pension scheme operate on a defined benefit basis or defined contribution basis? I cannot see this in the section. Perhaps I am missing it.

I understand there will be no change in status. Whatever scheme they are in at present, they will stay in it.

That is fair enough but I am talking about new entrants. I am not trying to be pedantic or difficult. What type of scheme will new entrants in Sport Ireland join? Will it be a defined benefit scheme or a defined contribution scheme? It is perfectly correct that staff transferring to the new body will keep what they have. Obviously, there will be new staff, such as a new chief executive. What type of pension will that person or other new entrants have?

For new entrants, the new public service scheme will apply. For any new staff, there will be a defined benefit.

I thank the Minister for the clarification. New entrants to Sport Ireland will come under the gold-plated defined benefit scheme that is not applicable to people such as the Aer Lingus and airport pensioners about whom I have been talking and who have had their benefits cut by 50% or 60% by the Government. I am sure the latter will be very interested to know that new entrants to Sport Ireland, a new State body, will have access to a defined benefit scheme. I thank the Minister of State for his answer.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 23; Níl, 11.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
  • Zappone, Katherine.

Níl

  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Craughwell, Gerard P.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Power, Averil.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ivana Bacik and Paul Coghlan; Níl, Senators Darragh O'Brien and Diarmuid Wilson.
Amendment declared carried.
Sections 26 to 33, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 34
Question proposed: "That section 34 stand part of the Bill."

I am more convinced now than ever that Senator Darragh O'Brien has a candidate, a man or a woman, lined up for this job.

It is Mick O'Dwyer on the way back from Louth.

It is a possibility, as he is one of those boys.

Are we speaking on the section?

I commend the Minister of State on the one-year appointment. Section 34 deals with liabilities and my recollection is that there are outstanding High Court cases.

What is the approximate cost of these cases? It must be approximately €1 million at this stage and they are still not complete. It would be better to spend the outstanding moneys on sports facilities as is done with the sports capital grant. Will these liabilities carry on to the new board? In the past it was a Fianna Fáil man or woman for life and I congratulate the Minister of State on his approach.

That is an outrageous statement.

Major court cases are taking place and there will be major legal fees but we must wait for the outcome of the case. The liabilities will pass on to the new board. The liabilities of the Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Development Authority will become the liabilities of Sport Ireland. These liabilities may be covered by the Exchequer since the bodies are State bodies and there will be no change in this. The new body will be a State board backed by the Exchequer. The answer to the question is that any liabilities of either of the two bodies will carry on to the new body. At the end of the day Exchequer funding will cover everything. If there is a problem, the State will have to cover any liability. We will have to wait. I will not speak about the court case. Like the Senator, I would prefer to see money spent on sport and not on lawyers, barristers and courts.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 35 to 43, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 44
Question proposed: "That section 44 stand part of the Bill."

The section states a person who fails to comply with the Irish anti-doping rules shall not be eligible for funding to represent the State in sport. Is there a time limit on this? Would such a time limit be under the regulation of the Irish anti-doping rules? Is someone who fails to comply permanently excluded from representing the State or is there a limit on the restriction?

My understanding is that someone caught doping faced a two-year ban but since January the ban is four years. I am open to correction on this. They are the rules and timelines set down with regard to doping.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 45 agreed to.
SCHEDULE 1
Question proposed: "That Schedule 1 be a Schedule to the Bill."

I seek clarification on the resignation or removal of members of the board. The Bill states a person shall be disqualified from holding and shall cease to hold office as a member of Sport Ireland or a committee if he or she is judged bankrupt or makes a composition or arrangement with his or her creditors. Why would either of these circumstances prevent someone from being a member of the board? Since our Constitution came into existence until quite recently we had a prohibition on someone standing for either House or being a Member of either House if he or she was judged bankrupt. This has changed. Is it now a fact that people are eligible to stand for either House of the Oireachtas, the Presidency or the European Parliament if they are judged bankrupt but cannot be a member of Sport Ireland if they are judged to be bankrupt or have come to an arrangement with their creditors? I wish to ask about the constitutionality of what is proposed.

I wish to ask about the appointment of the board. We are advised the Sport Ireland board shall consist of 13 members, one of whom should be a chairperson and the members shall be appointed by the Minister. The tradition now with the appointment to State boards across the spectrum is that while the Minister might make the appointments, at least some if not all the appointments are made following nominations received by various agencies, groupings and bodies. Here it appears the Minister will have the unhappy task of making the 13 appointments himself or herself. Would it not have been possible to have a requirement that certain organisations or groupings in the broader sporting, cultural or educational fields should make nominations to the Minister who would then pick the nominations? It appears from how it is written that the Minister will simply make the appointments and there is no possibility of nominations from third or fourth parties. The GAA or IRFU will not be in a position to make a name available. It appears to be going contrary to what is the norm for board appointments. The Government makes much play of the fact that board appointments are generally made on the recommendation of other agencies and the Minister picks from a list made available to him or her. Will any groupings be in a position to submit names to the Minister or will it be purely a matter for the Minister and the Department to make the nominations? If it is, perhaps it is disappointing. Without overplaying the words "transparency" and "accountability" we need to ensure the board looks very representative, open and democratic. We have a difficulty, and I admit it is minor, with the direct appointment by the Minister of the first interim chief executive, but if the Minister on his or her own will appoint the longer-term appointments of the 13 members, it does not present a helpful picture. What range of involvement and engagement will there be in selecting the initial board? It will have much power in appointing a chief executive and taking major decisions down the line. How open will the nomination process be?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Barr
Roinn