I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy English.
Commencement Matters
Schools Building Projects Status
I welcome the Minister of State. I would like to read his reply before I start because for the past 15 years, I have been getting the same reply on this issue. The school has been in a prefab accommodation for 19 years and from the day that went on site, it was supposed to get a new school building. The prefab accommodation was supposed to be a temporary building but it is still in use. It is a large school in Knocklyon and it is bursting at the seams. The prefab accommodation has been in use for 19 years and it is totally unsuitable.
There is a problem with the title deeds in regard to the site. It was a road reservation and South Dublin County Council purchased a bit of the land. This has been an issue since about five years after the school was established. I was told about ten years ago that South Dublin County Council had requested that the site be vested in the Department of Finance, as that would be the only way to sort this out, but after that, nothing was done. It has been going from Billy to Jack. Three years ago, I thought the Department of Education would do something but nothing happened.
I am blue in the face asking about this. I was told it was within the remit of the Property Registration Authority, the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Education and Skills. Nobody wants the site; it is a road reservation. South Dublin County Council does not have title to it. Everybody is in agreement in the Department of Education and Skills that a new school is needed. Less than a year ago, I was informed by the Minister that other site options are being considered but no specific details were given in that reply.
Can the Minister of State comment on this? What is the actual position? After 20 years of waiting for a new school building, the teachers and pupils - some former pupils are now sending their children to the school - deserve to know what is happening. The issue has been going on much too long and I am dying to hear what the Minister of State has to say.
I am taking this matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan and I thank the Senator for raising it. As she is aware, officials from my Department have been working closely with South Dublin County Council officials in relation to securing a suitable site to facilitate the delivery of permanent school accommodation for Gaelscoil Chnoc Liamhna. The site on which the school's temporary accommodation is currently located is in the ownership of South Dublin County Council. This site was assessed by members of the Department's technical and professional staff and deemed suitable for development of permanent accommodation for the school, as the Senator rightly said. Subsequently, agreement in principle was reached between the Department and South Dublin County Council in relation to the acquisition of the site. However, in the course of the conveyancing process, title issues relating to a portion of the site were identified. As the Senator will appreciate, due diligence must be applied with respect to all land transfers.
Resolution of the title issues is not straightforward and South Dublin County Council has been working with the Department and the Property Registration Authority to obtain a satisfactory outcome for some time. Despite the best efforts of all involved, this issue has significantly delayed the site acquisition.
Subsequent to the most recent discussions between officials from my Department and from South Dublin County Council, the matter has been reappraised. The council has now submitted to my Department a proposal which might serve to provide a satisfactory resolution to the title issues and thereby facilitate the land transfer. This proposal is under review by officials in my Department. A response will issue to the council shortly in relation to this proposal and it is envisaged that this will enable the conveyancing process to progress. Officials in my Department will keep the school authorities informed of any developments. Once the acquisition of the site is finalised, it is my Department's intention to initiate the architectural planning process for the provision of a new school building.
I assure the Senator that officials from my Department are aware of the situation with regard to the school's current accommodation and the pressing need to acquire the site. In that regard, every effort is being made to advance the process to facilitate progression of the project. I thank the Senator again for giving me the opportunity to clarify the situation in this regard. I hope it has been of some use.
The Minister of State has tried his best to make it sound plausible. He said: "The council has now submitted to my Department a proposal which might serve to provide a satisfactory resolution to the title issues and thereby facilitate the land transfer." Over seven years ago, South Dublin County Council submitted a proposal to the Department of Education and Skills to have the land vested in the Department of Finance. Is that the same proposal that has now been resubmitted? Perhaps the Minister of State does not know as he is answering for the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. I would like to have the actual proposal "which might serve to provide a satisfactory resolution" in writing, including the timescale.
Land transfers happen every day of the week. Some builders no longer have the money to buy sites, but transfers of land are carried out every day. I am waiting 15 years for this land title transfer. The Minister said the land was in the ownership of South Dublin County Council. We know the road reservation was there, but the title deeds are the problem. The ownership is no good without the title deeds because the Department of Education and Skills will not put a school on the ground without having title to the site. We do not want a situation as in Merrion Park, where someone comes along later and claims the whole lot. It is important that it is sorted. I want a timescale. This is not worth the paper it is written on, because the same proposal came in years ago. Could the Minister of State respond to me in writing, stating what the proposal is, the timescale and giving more detail?
I do not have a timeframe for the Senator, but at this stage everyone recognises that it is urgent. The Senator spoke of 15 years, but South Dublin County Council approved the disposal of the site in 2007, which is now seven or eight years ago. Subsequently, issues arose regarding the title and ownership. From the perspective of the Department of Education and Skills, it is not possible to commence a building project in advance of a formal transfer of land. The Department must ensure the Minister owns the land. It cannot build a school on someone else's land. That is the difficulty. I do not know why it has taken seven or eight years and I am not privy to details as to whether it is a new proposal. I understand it is acceptable to all involved, so it should progress. I will certainly provide the Senator with any details we are allowed to release. There is no problem with that. I understand from all involved that this solution should work. I hope it does and will pass on the sense of urgency expressed by the Senator.
Schools Amalgamation
I wish to raise an issue regarding the funding policy pursued by the Department when it comes to the amalgamation of DEIS schools with non-DEIS schools. I recently visited a secondary school in my constituency in County Galway, which was originally a regular school but which amalgamated with a DEIS school. As soon as this new entity was established, and despite the fact that all these new students were assimilated into the school, the special status funding stream was withdrawn.
The pupils and staff find themselves in a situation where 59% of the school population are medical card holders and despite the presence of a large number of students from an ethnic minority - about 30 students - the school does not qualify for a Traveller liaison officer because 33 students from this background are required for this. The school does not have a school liaison officer, which also presents problems, given some issues in families and possible suspicion of teachers and people from the school. All this has an impact on the students and the quality of their learning if teachers and the school principal have to invest resources and time and money to assist in whatever way they can. The school is already looking at possibly having to withdraw the free books scheme in the school, which it did not qualify for under the departmental guidelines because it already had one in place prior to the Department putting forward funding. It may also have to revise its ability to give breakfast free to its students.
All this means that the already stretched funding streams will be further impacted. It will have a knock-on effect on the quality of services being provided to many students from disadvantaged backgrounds in this area. The cohort of students has not changed. If anything, it has become more challenging for teachers and students alike in the absence of specific funding to assist, which would have been available to the DEIS school. Discretion must be used now. If this is not done, children who would traditionally have done their junior certificate as a result of having all these supports in place in a DEIS school and who no longer have these supports under the new amalgamated structure will fall through the cracks. I am eager to avoid this if at all possible. I urge the Minister of State and the Department to review the policy of withdrawing funding for those DEIS schools that have amalgamated with non-DEIS schools, in the interests of fairness and equality of opportunity in education.
Again, I will answer on behalf of my colleague, the Minister, who could not make it to the House today and who sends her apologies. I thank the Senator for raising this matter. It is an important issue and one that many of us have seen in our own areas. The current policy of my Department in relation to school amalgamations involving DEIS and non-DEIS schools is that where such an amalgamation occurs, DEIS status is not retained by the newly established school. However, as a transitional measure, these schools continue to be supported by way of additional financial and non-teaching resources in respect of the number of eligible pupils from the former DEIS school.
This transitional measure remains in place for a specific period of time. Once the new school has been operating for six school years, it is deemed that the cohort of disadvantaged students from the former DEIS school will have passed through the second level system or be in their final year of schooling. Accordingly, any additional resources and funding, which would have been based on the final enrolment of the now closed DEIS school, would cease. This arrangement supports the pupil cohort of the former DEIS school for the duration of their second level education and represents a continuation of support for this targeted group.
As the Senator will be aware, the programme for Government commits to addressing educational disadvantage and delivering better outcomes for students in disadvantaged areas. The recently published ESRI report, Learning from the Evaluation of DEIS, which was commissioned by my Department, provides an opportunity to review the scheme. The report assesses the main findings of research to date on the DEIS programme and provides advice to inform future policy direction in respect of educational disadvantage.
As the Senator may also be aware, the Minister, Deputy O'Sullivan, has commenced consultation with the education partners to inform the development of appropriate measures to continue to support those at risk of poor educational outcomes. She is also establishing an inter-departmental working group, which will ensure a joined-up approach to the delivery of DEIS services. A technical group has already commenced work to develop a revised identification process for schools. This work will continue over the course of the next school year. The consultation process will encapsulate all aspects of the DEIS programme, including the arrangements for school amalgamations involving DEIS and non-DEIS schools. Hopefully the issue the Senator has raised will also be addressed through that.
The outcome of this process will form part of an overall proposal for the delivery of future interventions to tackle educational disadvantage. In the meantime, the Minister does not propose to make any changes to current policy as regards the status of new schools involving the amalgamation of DEIS and non-DEIS schools. I thank the Senator once again for raising this matter.
I thank the Minister for his response. I welcome it and think that something proactive is being undertaken by the Department. It is important that special consideration is given to what I see as unfair situations with regard to DEIS and non-DEIS schools that have amalgamated and the withdrawal of particular funding streams that would have a significant impact on the lives of children from disadvantaged backgrounds. I will give the Minister of State the details of the school I have spoken about and ask that consideration be given to its circumstances. I know it cannot be given consideration beyond that given to other schools, but I ask that he take into consideration its particular circumstances and act in a proactive and positive manner in that respect.
If the Senator gives me the details, I will pass them on to the Minister.
I know there are specific issues relating to one school and we can get them looked at. The policy must be used equally throughout the country. If any area is missing out on anything, we can get it looked at.
School Enrolments
The Minister of State is very welcome. I am speaking on behalf of the families of Glencullen, Kilternan, Stepaside, Sandyford and Ballyogan who have no secondary school in their area. There are a number of families comprising two and three generations but there is also a burgeoning population in the area. The fact that there is no secondary school in the area is a very serious deficit. The map outlined for the area excludes Glencullen from participating in the new Educate Together school in Stepaside. It means that the residents of Glencullen will have to travel over the mountains and attend the proposed new school in north Wicklow. Excluding children from Glencullen makes no sense. There are two issues in question. The first is that there is no secondary school there and the second is that, ridiculously, the existing map prevents children from Glencullen from attending the Educate Together school in Stepaside. It is a matter of urgency because it is very nerve-wracking for the families. They are very agitated about it.
I thank the Senator for raising this matter as I welcome the opportunity to explain the position with regard to how new schools are planned and to address the issue of the Glencullen catchment area which the Senator wants to be part of the school feeder area for the proposed new Educate Together post-primary school in Stepaside.
First, the school to which the Senator refers is not being provided for the children of Glencullen. The school is being specifically provided for the children of the Ballinteer-Stepaside school feeder area. Glencullen is in a different school feeder area known as the Kilternan school feeder area. I am pleased to be able to tell the Senator that a separate new post-primary school is starting up in September 2016 under the patronage of Educate Together to cater for the children of the Kilternan, Ballybrack-Shankill and Bray school feeder areas. As Glencullen is in the Kilternan school feeder area, this second school will cater for children from that area from September 2016.
I will explain in more depth. For school planning purposes, the country is divided into school feeder areas. A school feeder area has one or more post-primary schools into which designated primary schools feed. School feeder areas do not change as this would defeat the orderly planning of school provision. Due to the unprecedented demographic growth in this country over the past decade or more, 24 new primary schools and 26 new post-primary schools have been or are in the process of being established. The purpose of each of these schools is to meet a specific demographic need within a defined geographic area known as a school feeder area. In other words, the establishment of these schools is to ensure every child living in a particular school feeder area can have access to a physical school place within that area.
As part of the patronage determination processes to establish who will operate the new schools, prospective patrons must commit to enrolling, as a priority, pupils from the area for whom the school is intended. The Department would expect to see this in the enrolment policies for new schools to ensure the children for whom the school is being provided are not displaced by pupils living in another school feeder area who would have their own post-primary provision.
The new post-primary school for the Ballinteer-Stepaside school feeder area is opening in part in response to a need to provide 1,500 extra post-primary school places for children resident in the geographical area in question. The remainder of the places are being provided by a new all-Irish Gaelcholáiste. Separately, a new post-primary school with 1,000 pupil places is required to meet the demographic needs of the Kilternan, Ballybrack-Shankill and Bray school feeder areas. As indicated, the Kilternan school feeder area contains Glencullen.
Again and as I said, consistent with the criteria for establishing all new schools, the patron of this school, which is Educate Together, will be expected to give priority access to children from these feeder areas in its enrolment policy for this school, including children from Glencullen. The Department is working on start-up accommodation for both of these new schools and permanent accommodation will be made available for them as soon as a site has been secured to allow this development. I hope my explanation provides clarity relating to new school provision in the Senator's area. The criteria for the establishment of new schools and all documentation relating to the award of patronage for individual schools are published on the Department's website. I think people will find that quite useful so the Senator might be able to advise some of her constituents to have a look at it because it also includes the maps of the areas to be served by the new schools. I hope the information is helpful to the Senator and clarifies her concerns. The fact that two new schools are on the way is good news for both areas.
In his reply, the Minister of State said that: "consistent with the criteria for establishing all new schools, the patron of this school, which is Educate Together, will be expected to give priority access to children from these feeder areas in its enrolment policy for this school, including children from Glencullen." Does this clarify that children from Glencullen can to go this new school?
Yes. A school is planned to open in September 2016. People can apply to go any school but our duty is to make sure there is a school of choice in their area. When patrons apply to build and run that school, they must then agree to certain criteria. Under those criteria, patrons must commit to enrolling pupils from the geographical areas for whom the school is intended. There are two schools here. The Glencullen area will be served by the 1,000-pupil school that will open in September 2016. Naturally, if there is space available, people are allowed to apply to the other school but the school being provided for them is the one in their school feeder area.
The reply said that "the new post-primary school for the Ballinteer-Stepaside school feeder area is opening in part in response to a need to provide 1,500 extra post-primary school places for children resident in the geographical area in question". That is the problem. I do not think that includes Glencullen.
They are included in a different feeder area but a school is also being provided for them so two new schools are being provided. Glencullen is in a different school feeder area from the one highlighted by the Senator today. These feeder areas are geographical areas worked out by the Department's forward planning unit. Our aim is to respond to demographic need. Both feeder areas require a new school to cater for demand.
I worked in the school section of the OPW and understand the issue about schools but the map does not make sense so we must address that for families concerned.
We can look at the maps and if there are any specific concerns about them and geography, the Senator might contact the forward planning unit or go through the Minister and me. The feeder areas have been analysed and are based on planning requirements and demographic need. A lot of science goes into them.
They are not perfect.
We all have issues locally with historical catchment areas but these are trying to-----
If it is a bad decision, it should be-----
Sorry-----
If it was a business, it would be changed because it does not make sense.
I am sure-----
It should not be carved in stone.
It might not make sense to the Senator but I am sure the science-----
It does not make sense to the families in the area. It must be changed.
We must move on.
It is important to say that the officials put a lot of effort and work into working out these areas. It is not like what happened in the past. Schools are planned in a very logical and scientific way and data from the census, population figures today and projected figures are used to plan those schools and arrange school feeder areas. A lot of work goes into that. It is not a case of-----
It is a bad decision. It is the wrong decision.
We are speaking here without having the details of the decision. It is possibly a local opinion.
I can follow it up.
There is no problem doing that but it is important to recognise that a lot of work goes into making these decisions. They are not willy-nilly decisions.
It does not make sense to the residents.
Social Welfare Offices
Cuirim céad fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit agus táim thar a bheith buíoch de as ucht teacht isteach. The Minister of State knows that there was a movement of community welfare officers, CWOs, from the HSE to the Department of Social Protection in 2011 and 2012 with the Department taking over more than 900 clinics that CWOs would previously have undertaken. In 2012, more than 100 clinics were closed. The Minister maintained that the service had been enhanced with phone lines being preferable to clinics and CWOs visiting people's homes to meet them where that was needed.
We agree in principle with the transfer of CWOs to the Department and said so at the time. The restructuring of services where possible into one-stop-shops and the making of savings on rent costs was to be done in a way that would not compromise the accessibility of the CWO and the person who succeeded them in that scenario.
This is the subject of my question. We had a particular concern in Connemara with the closure of a service in Carraroe and also the services in Oughterard and Spiddal being rationalised and moved to Galway city. The Minister at the time told us it was to provide for a streamlined and consistent service to the customer. The language used is interesting in that it is a customer as opposed to a client, and that anyone using the services of a CWO or a social welfare office is regarded as a customer. She also said the Department was intensifying its level of engagement with the unemployed, in particular those who are or had become long-term unemployed, and that the new Intreo service offers practical tailored employment services and supports for jobseekers, a model which is currently being rolled out throughout the country. It is acknowledged that there is an increased engagement with the unemployed so therefore one would imagine that more interaction would be needed with these former community welfare officers. We were informed that where the community welfare service had been restructured, alternative arrangements had been put in place to ensure customers - that word used again - are provided with ongoing access to the supports provided by the service and that in general this would mean that the frequency of available public clinics had been increased.
I note that Deputy Ó Snodaigh and other Deputies and ourselves at the time had raised issues around this because in rural areas where a service was being removed or moved to an urban centre, transport connections such as bus services were not available. For example, there is no bus service to Clifden, the nearest centre for people living in Carna, County Galway. Anyone wishing to go to the city would have to get a bus first thing in the morning and stay in the city all day until the return at night. I know from dealing with people through my office that people have been asked to attend at the centre in Galway on a number of occasions, for three or four days in the same week, to finalise their claims for supports from the Department of Social Protection. It has been said that in cases where people are not in a position to travel due to lack of resources or lack of transport, the Department would call out to those people and ensure they were provided with a service. The Department would initially endeavour to deal with those people by telephone or by post.
How many times in the past year have these former community welfare officers or officers of the Department of Social Protection gone out to Connemara to visit people in their homes? It is my understanding that the travel is the other way around, that people are being asked to travel to Galway or to Clifden to process their claims. This is sometimes not practical. For example, a person applying for a special needs payment may be in dire straits or may be finding it very difficult to make ends meet. It is an extra burden on such individuals if they are asked to incur travel costs and it is unfair. I am interested to know how many call-outs have been undertaken by officers on behalf of the Department of Social Protection to help people to process their claims, as was the practice previously with the community welfare officers.
On behalf of the Minister of State at the Department of Social Protection, I thank Senator Ó Clochartaigh for raising this issue of house calls to social welfare customers in Connemara. The Minister of State is unable to attend today, for which he apologises. He was looking forward to the opportunity to reply to Senator Ó Clochartaigh in Irish.
Before I reply to the Senator, with the permission of the Acting Chairman I wish to welcome students from my local school in Trim, Boyne community school, who are taking the Dáil tour. I think there are a few future politicians among them, either Senators or Deputies. They are all very welcome. It is important that schools have an opportunity to see what goes on in the Houses of the Oireachtas.
My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kevin Humphreys, is very conscious of the need to provide efficient and effective customer-facing services at a local level for all customers of the Department. I note that Senator Ó Clochartaigh does not like the use of the term "customer", but I think it is a very appropriate term because these are public services and these people are customers. It is better than some of the titles that would have been used in the past. It reminds the departmental staff involved that we are dealing with customers and that they should be treated as customers the same as in any service being offered. In my view it is a good way to look at it but we can have a discussion about it at another time.
Since late 2013, community welfare services in the Connemara area are provided from both the Galway and Clifden offices. Staff based in An Spidéal and An Ceathrú Rua were relocated to Galway city, while services based in Cill Chiaráin were relocated to Clifden. In addition, the frequency of available public clinics was increased to five days per week in Galway city and to three days per week in Clifden. In both locations, anyone wishing to avail of the services of the Department are dealt with in person at the office, by phone, e-mail, postal application or by house call, where necessary. Customers are encouraged to contact the service by phone, e-mail or post in the first instance and in most cases their queries can be addressed without them having to attend a public clinic. If a meeting is necessary, they are usually offered an appointment to come in and meet the officer at a suitable time and date. If the customer cannot come into the office for any valid reason, the officer will call to the customer's home by prior arrangement.
The information required by the Senator on the number of such house calls is currently not available. Officers regularly make calls to customers' homes in the Connemara area for initial applications or for follow-up visits and reviews. I am assured there has been no change in this situation. Anyone who has a requirement for a house call for whatever valid reason is catered for when it is brought to the attention of the relevant officer. If the Senator has knowledge of any specific cases that require a house call, the details can be brought to the attention of the departmental officials.
We all know that some situations will require a house call. When I was a young fellow growing up, my father was a community welfare officer and at that time it was the norm to do house calls. The Senator will appreciate that the provision of services has changed in the past 20 or 30 years, the number of people engaging with those services has increased and, therefore, house calls are no longer the norm. They are common in our job as politicians. However, the reduction in the numbers of departmental staff means it is not possible but, where appropriate, house calls should be undertaken. I ask the Senator to contact the Department if he is aware that house calls were not undertaken and it will be investigated.
On the point about the use of the term, "customer", I think "client" might be a better term. We can have a discussion on that. The Minister of State referred to the time when he was a young fellow but there are many of us in this House who would still categorise him as a young fellow because he is looking a lot fresher than some of us, and fair play to him.
I am quite surprised that the Department of Social Protection has no statistics on the number of house calls. I find it strange that this information is not available. Even from an employment perspective there must be some record if an officer is being asked to make house calls. For example, travel expenses need to be reimbursed. This statistical information needs to be collected because if there is a high number of house calls, it might raise the need for a satellite office or a reconsideration of the closure of the office in Carraroe. If the number of house calls is small, the opposite would apply and it would have been the right decision. I find it very strange that the Department of Social Protection, which is very good at collecting statistics, does not have any statistics whatsoever on the number of house calls being made by its officers in a place as big and as rural as Connemara. A high number of house calls will mean a high level of expense. One imagines that travel expenses are payable to the officers. The reply is not satisfactory and I would appreciate more information. I ask the Department to revert to me with those statistics when they are to hand.
I will convey that message to the Minister of State. To be clear, the statistics are currently not available. It is not a case that they do not exist but I think they could not compile the information within the timeframe. I will pass on the message to the Minister of State, Deputy Humphreys. The Senator has a very good reason for using the information which is to identify future service needs. The Department values the service it provides. I refer to the changes proposed for the delivery of customer services through the Intreo offices. It is hoped to see a decrease in the caseload for case officers through working with private industry to address the needs of all our constituents and clients. It is hoped there will be a significant improvement in the time available to each client because this will help them on their journey to re-employment. I will provide the information to the Senator when it is compiled.
Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.