Local Authority Members' Remuneration: Motion

Senator Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I move:

That Seanad Éireann calls for a Seanad committee representative of all the political groups to be established in order to examine councillors’ terms and conditions, including PRSI class K status, pension rights and other related matters and that this committee consult representatives of both the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, and the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA.

It is welcome that Fianna Fáil has agreed to the motion to set up a committee representative of all the political groups to examine councillors' terms and conditions, including PRSI class K status, pension rights and other related matters. As all councillors have seen since 2014, in what we now call the new local government reform, their areas have become bigger, resulting in an extra workload. I ask that the committee proposed be set up as soon as possible. It is about all groups working together in order that we can achieve a good outcome.

I was a councillor for 19 years during which time I saw many changes in local authorities. In my county council, Carlow County Council, the number of members decreased from 21 to 18.

I have seen the abolition of town councils. All of this has had an effect on councillors. Councillors play a big part in the community. I ask that the committee be set up as soon as possible and that we work with councillors and all of the groups in the Seanad to see what we can do to help meet their needs.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is the motion being formally seconded?

Senator Paul Daly

I second the motion.

Senator Paddy Burke

I agree with the motion that has been proposed and seconded by the two Senators on the far side of the House. It is only right and proper that councillors' pay and terms be renegotiated. The current regime is in being since 2014 and only settling down after the agreements put in place by the former Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Phil Hogan. We can see now that it is not adequate to cover the expenses and the workings in which councillors engage on a daily and weekly basis. As a former member of a local authority for 25 years and a town councillor for more than ten years, I know quite well the workings of local authorities, both town and county councils. Great credit is due to anybody who puts his or her name forward to run for election to a local authority. When the people who had the courage to put their names down are elected, it is only right and proper that they be properly remunerated. The pay of €16,500 is not quite adequate to cover the cost, particularly for somebody who is a full-time councillor.

On the second day of this new Seanad I tabled a motion on class K contributions. I was heartened by the response from the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Leo Varadkar, on the matter. He outlined three areas in which he could see where improvements could be made to class K contributions which do not suit everybody. They do not suit every councillor. They do not suit some councillors to whom the benefits probably do not apply, be they above pension age or whatever else. It is only right and proper that the issue of class K contributions be addressed properly and that councillors who are young and not of pension age receive pay that will entitle them to a contributory pension. There are several instances in which class K contributions are being used right across the public service and the Civil Service where some benefits do accrue for some employees. It is only right and proper that councillors receive a contributory pension and the benefits that go with it.

I welcome the motion before the House. The Fine Gael Party welcomes it. We have to work together, from all parties and none, to support councillors at this time and make sure they have proper pay and conditions. Let us face it - they work long hours. Working with council officials is tedious. To get something done at council level is not always easy and it is very time-consuming. The proposal made will help to put pressure on various Ministers. We now see that there are at least two Ministers involved. The Minister with responsibility for housing, planning and local government and the Minister for Social Protection are involved.

It is not a simple solution and there are a number of offices to go through. It is high time that proper conditions were put in place. There is urgency attached to the matter which should be addressed. We agree with the all-party motion proposed on which we should have agreement and be able to move forward.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I will share my five minutes of my time with Senator Gerard P. Craughwell.

It was appropriate to alter the Order of Business today to raise the issue of the pay and conditions of councillors. I am delighted that there appears to be cross-party consensus and believe that is the way to go. It is appropriate that we work together. Across the House we all have our own personal experiences in local government.

I wish to tee up four items that I would like us to consider.

I will not go into the details now, as we will have that opportunity later. The issues are representational payments, fixed annual allowances, class K PRSI contributions and elected members' gratuity payments. I have not chosen these four off the top of my head. During the election a commitment circulated to everyone listed these four requirements. It is important that we have a clear message, focus and target in the task ahead of us. I thank everyone for reaching a consensus. We can work together for the betterment of local councillors and local government.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

We constantly refer to the pay of councillors. There is no master-servant relationship between the council and the elected councillor. The sum of €16,950 is a representational payment, not a salary. Why, in God's name, are we treating it as such? The class K PRSI contribution is a criminal form of taking money from people for nothing. Who in this room would buy an insurance policy knowing that he or she could never cash it in, draw down on it or make an input into it? Hence, I have readied a case on this matter that will go before the High Court if we do not see a quick change.

I hope the committee we are agreeing to establish will set a timeline. No Senator wants to face councillors in the next election and tell them that we let them down again. I want us all to work together. This is not any one individual's issue. It is for all of us. We will be damned quick to tell those who elected us that we worked on their behalf. I hope we all get stuck into this issue.

We are withdrawing our motion on the basis that, unlike our exclusion previously, we will have representation on this group. This is not an all-party group but one for all Senators, including Independents. I wish the committee well. I hope we will establish its membership tomorrow.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

Sinn Féin agrees with the motion to set up the time-limited committee. We recognise that Putting People First and the changes in local government have not served constituents, their councillors or local authorities. Money was saved by getting rid of town councils, but it was a major mistake, not only for the towns that they served but also for the public representatives. I have just left a constituency in west Mayo that is 100 miles long and includes a number of large towns. There is no way for me to provide a quality service in a constituency of that size.

Local councillors need the resources to do their jobs. It is more than a full-time job. We all bring our experiences to it. I did not realise that Senator Paddy Burke had been a councillor for 25 years before me. We all know what we put into that job when we did it.

There must be fixed-term contracts with the associated benefits. Some people believe councillors should do the job for nothing, but one cannot do so with no resources. My main concern is that someone who is parenting alone or has responsibilities and who could bring good experience to a council chamber is forbidden from doing so because it is financially unaffordable for him or her to leave a family in a vulnerable situation and work so many hours. People are unable to take up extra employment or pay their bills at the end of the month. We need people from all cross-sections of the community in council chambers, for example, lone parents, people who have experienced poverty, people who have run businesses, etc. These are the types of person who make good decisions on behalf of the people.

When we treat councillors as we have been doing, we feed into the centralisation of power in the Government and county managers. The latter are running the show in local authorities. That is not right. Reserved functions are being continuously eroded. Is that any wonder when we treat councillors like we do? We must be able to encourage a cross-section of society into local government, but we can only do that by looking after the welfare and terms and conditions of our councillors. We must work together in that regard. I look forward to working with the committee, but it must be time-limited and produce results for councillors and the constituents whom they serve.

Senator Denis Landy

I spoke on this matter on the Order of Business. I support Fianna Fáil's proposal. Although we formed a group in the previous Seanad, we did not go through this process. It is better that we do so this time, as it will be more transparent. I am delighted that Senator Gerard P. Craughwell will be on board this time, as it is important that everyone is with us.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I had to lead it previously.

Senator Paddy Burke

The Senator was well rewarded.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Order, please.

Senator Denis Landy

Many delicate negotiations will have to take place.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator should not invite argument or comment. He should continue.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

He is telling the truth.

Senator Denis Landy

I just counted to ten. Many delicate negotiations will have to take place, predominantly with the Minister. The previous Seanad's group met the then Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, with the representative associations to discuss the issues. We cannot negotiate on the floor of the House. Negotiations must be undertaken with the respective people on both sides. We have made a serious statement on behalf of councillors in what we have done this evening. We need a timeline. Councillors' rates of pay must be addressed, given the surveys which show how much work councillors do and how many meetings they must attend, including those that are not council meetings. If one attends two community-based meetings per night, one does not sign anywhere to prove one's attendance.

Many issues must be clarified, but much work has already been done and we do not need to reinvent the wheel. The 2014 legislation was reviewed and, on 6 April, the then Minister tabled a proposal as a starting point to increase the annual allowance and change it to an administrative assistance payment to reflect its purpose more correctly. We must get the current Minister to buy into what has been done in this regard. Then we need to consider councillors' rates of pay and the PRSI issue. I commend a former Minister for Social Protection, Dr. Michael Woods, for introducing a new class of PRSI contribution for Protestant ministers, of whom there are 300 or 400. There are approximately 1,000 councillors. Surely we could come up with something to sort out this issue. As Senator Paddy Burke stated, it is complicated. I met a councillor of pension age in Leinster House last week who was still paying 4% of his councillor's allowance into a pension fund, even though he was already receiving a pension. That is daft.

The Local Authorities Members Association, LAMA, and the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, have met the Minister and laid out their stall which entailed something similar to Senator Victor Boyhan's four points. The Minister is well aware of the issues involved. One of the associations will meet him in Leinster House tomorrow evening to discuss the PRSI issue.

We have moved things on, but the all-party group, inclusive of all groups, will be beneficial. The first thing we need to do is request a meeting with the Minister. We need to have the two associations present at that meeting in order to go through the issues they want resolved such as those mentioned. We want to see the possible timelines for their resolution.

We have made considerable progress and I am happy to support the motion, although I could not second it earlier today.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 2016