Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 May 2025

Vol. 305 No. 12

Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill 2024: Committee and Remaining Stages

Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 5

Question proposed, "That section 5 stand part of the Bill".

Senator Victor Boyhan

I do not want to delay the House because I am very conscious no amendments have been tabled. I monitored this Bill's progress through the Dáil. Section 5 deals with the access to cash criteria and I welcome it. It is really important. I and Deputy Fitzmaurice were featured in Agriland recently, which covered the issue extensively. The article referred to the importance of ATMs in our rural communities and the distribution of these machines. We have seen the exit of Ulster Bank and other banks from the marketplace and we have seen machines being decommissioned. It is really important we have access to cash. I spent a week in Portugal the week before last when there was a 17-hour power cut. Interestingly, there was an issue with ATMs there because there was no power. Cash is important and I just wanted to make that point in the context of section 5.

There was much discussion in the Dáil about this legislation, and its importance was very much taken on board. I thank the Minister of State and the Department for progressing it. It is particularly important for small communities that do not have access to banks and do not have transport links to big towns, and we have to geographically map and mark them out. There is a commitment in the legislation that there will be a certain distribution of ATMs around the country, but I do not know, and am not sure if anyone else knows, where they are currently. We need to be mindful of that, monitor it and talk to communities. It is important there is a source of cash. People like to go into town but they might not have transport. There might not be a bus and there might not be connectivity. People like to go into town, and independence is important for people all ages, where they can put their card into the hole in the wall, draw out their money for the week and manage it that way. ATMs are critically important and there are relatively simple models available.

Well done to all of the people involved in this legislation. I am glad the issue was taken on board. It is really important, especially for rural communities, to have, albeit automated, dispensing of cash. I ask the Minister of State, when resources allow and with the co-operation and co-ordination of the banks, to map out and provide an inventory of the locations of ATMs so that we do not see them slowly slipping away.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I welcome my very good personal friend, Deputy Canney, to the House. We served on committees together in the past. I have not had the opportunity to either welcome or congratulate him before now. It was a privilege to work with him in another capacity previously and it is great to see him here today as a Minister of State. I know he brings a lot of skill and dedication to the role.

I support my good friend and colleague, Senator Boyhan, on this important matter. It is a huge issue. We have had the banks close all over rural Ireland. Now we need an assurance by way of the inventory that Senator Boyhan talked about and we need a monitoring process to ensure we actually have a good spread of ATMs throughout the country. No place with a reasonable population or that is a centre of access should be without an ATM.

One of the great problems is that, at weekends, a lot of ATMs run out of cash. They are not properly stocked with money and they tend to run out on a Saturday afternoon and leave people stranded on a Sunday. It is quite a problem and is a real issue now that the banks have effectively deserted rural Ireland. We need ATMs and we need a network of them. I look forward to the Minister of State's response and I certainly support Senator Boyhan, whose important point was well made.

Senator Pat Casey

Regarding the two previous contributions, the legislation quite clearly details exactly the number of ATMs that are required as a percentage of population. Part of the review process which will happen after the next census will be to establish the use of cash in society. The issues raised by the Senators are clearly dealt with in the legislation in respect of the availability of ATMs. The legislation gives the Department the power to go after the banks if this is not working. All of that is dealt with comprehensively in the legislation.

Senator Mark Duffy

I welcome the provisions in the Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill 2024. I would like to raise a point with the Minister of State. I refer to access to cash. I have had a number of conversations with constituents as this has come to light over the past number of weeks. We have discussed this in great detail. It is important to recognise the lack of access at different stages to digital and contactless payments when power outages or a lack of access to Internet connectivity occurs, and when digital systems drop that leaves people high and dry. We saw that happen recently in Spain and Portugal.

There is also a move away from cash. People should have the choice between cash or card and contactless payments. More specifically, in my home county, Mayo, the First Choice Credit Union recently decided to restrict the hours of operation in five of their credit union locations, namely Achill, Balla, Ballyhaunis, Swinford and Kiltimagh. I raised this issue earlier on the Order of Business. It has been highlighted by local Councillor Alma Gallagher, who has worked alongside the chamber of commerce in Ballyhaunis to highlight the issue and express the dissatisfaction with the First Choice Credit Union's decision. A review of the decision was due last week, but that was not communicated this week. A decision is to be made by the end of May. I ask the Minister of State to look into this. I have raised the issue with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe.

We should not allow community-run organisations like credit unions, which are of the people and for the people, to make regressive decisions like this that offer less choice. We need to offer more choice for communities. Towns on an island like Achill, which are often neglected and feel like the poor relation, should not have a death by a thousand cuts and a reduction in the services which are vital to the communities of rural Ireland. I welcome the Bill and the guarantee and commitment to access to cash.

I acknowledge that airlines have now removed cash as a method of payment on most flights I have encountered. That is not fair or right. Legal tender is legal tender. Currency needs to be accepted.

As part of the Bill, I ask the Minister of State to consider the reduction in the hours of operation of credit unions. We must have access to services for rural communities and access to cash as legal tender. I thank the Cathaoirleach and Minister of State for their time.

Senator Seán Kyne

The Minister of State is welcome. I welcome the Bill. It makes perfect sense. The move to technology is not going to be reversed, but it is important that people have the right to use and be able to access cash in a location as close as possible to their home. During Storm Éowyn when the systems shut down and shops did not have access to tills or credit and debit facilities, cash was the only form of tender that was accepted. It was absolutely vital in those cases that people had access to cash to buy a loaf of bread or a bit of milk and meet their basic needs. The premise of the Bill is important. I very much welcome section 5 on access to cash criteria.

I will play devil's advocate, however, and others have expressed a view on people having the right to pay with cash. I fully agree with that. However, there are people who may wish to pay by debit card and do not have cash on them at that juncture, whether that is the purchase of a takeaway, haircut or whatever else. There are a number of cash-only businesses. As I said, in terms of playing devil's advocate, I wonder whether the right to be able to pay with a debit or credit card is a similar right for consumers.

In the past, when people had to collect their pension in cash or whatever else, there was a security risk and a risk to people's safety. Is that something the Minister of State has concerns about when he refers to access to cash and access via a debit or credit card to pay for goods and services?

Senator Cathal Byrne

Like my colleagues, I welcome this Bill. I want to highlight a number of specific things in section 5. Like so many people, I have tended to avail of having my bank card on my phone and making payments through Apple Pay. I notice that when I seek cashback from, for example, a petrol station that is not possible when using contactless payment through Apple Pay. I understand the Bill seeks primarily to deal with ATMs, but it is also important that we recognise the fact that while there are traditional ATMs, where people insert a bank card and put in a pin code, in an era when most people have adopted a model of paying through Apple Pay and having an ATM card on their phone, it should be recognised that the ATMs made available have to be modernised and move with the times. There should be availability through Apple Pay and Google Pay to withdraw cash at ATMs. I would like the Minister of State's Department to delve a bit more into the detail on that and see whether it is possible to ensure that the ATMs addressed in the Bill can incorporate contactless withdrawals. Perhaps there is a mechanism to link with banks on that area.

When people avail of cashback through petrol stations, will that count as cash being made available? Will cashback services through petrol stations be incorporated into the percentage of areas that have cash availability? Is the legislation strictly limited to physical ATMs?

In the Bill, is an ATM defined as one that has withdrawal facilities or will there be a corresponding mechanism for lodgements? I am aware that in some larger banks ATMs allow people to withdraw and lodge cash. While we are encouraging people to make use of cash, from a business perspective businesses need to be able to lodge cash. I am aware that the post office network offers that facility. Many businesses that deal in cash do not want to keep it overnight because of insurance considerations. The ATMs we will require to be available for consumer use should also have a corresponding requirement for lodgements.

I welcome the provision in section 5 regarding the Central Bank. In the context of the report it is to deliver under the Bill, it is proposed that, should there be a reduction in cash demand of more than 15% in a calendar year, as part of the review process there must be a consultation. It is important that the consultation incorporates bodies representing the interests of consumers, people with disabilities, elderly persons and the owners of SMEs, in particular those in the retail and hospitality sectors. The reality is that they are the people who find it very difficult to access ATMs. If the Bill is to be a success, it is important that those who may find it difficult to make their way to an ATM in a rural location are involved in consultation on where ATMs are to be located and that they are located in areas where they are accessible to people with disabilities or mobility challenges or the elderly.

I refer to post offices which allow withdrawals from bank accounts. I am aware that people can withdraw cash from AIB or Bank of Ireland through the post office network. Will that count as being an area which has access to cash, despite the fact that some of those in the area may not have a post office account?

Will those post offices count towards the percentage of areas that are covered by this legislation or are they outside its remit and there will have to be a functioning ATM? Those are the points I wanted to highlight under this section.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Seán Canney)

There were a lot of questions and I will try to get through as many as I can.

As of December 2022, there were 4,200 ATMs in the State. Breaking that number down, there were 397 in the Border region, 440 in the west, 417 in the mid-west, 349 in the south east, 630 in the south west, 1,159 in the Dublin area, 560 in the mid-east and 237 in the midlands. Per 100,000 of population, there were 94 ATMs in the Border region, 90 in the west, 82 in the mid-west, 76 in the south east, 85 in the south west, 79 in the Dublin region, 73 in the mid-east and 74 in the midlands. The average number of ATMs in the State per 100,000 of population was 82. We have a good spread of knowledge regarding the baseline of December 2022.

The Central Bank of Ireland will take on the function of monitoring compliance with the requirement for access to cash and local deficiency criteria. Information on the cash infrastructure in the State gathered under sections 6 and 12 will be analysed by the bank and used on an ongoing basis to determine whether the access to cash criteria prescribed under legislation are being met. In addition, section 5 provides that the Central Bank shall consult certain groups and representative organisations when preparing its report on access to cash, namely, the designated entities, bodies representing consumers, persons with disabilities, older people, SMEs, particularly in the retail and hospitality sectors, and other groups, as it may consider appropriate. The Bill provides for the Minister for Finance to consult the Central Bank and other persons as appropriate when making an order in regard to access to cash. These provisions will ensure the bank's regulation-making powers are exercised in a proportionate and non-arbitrary way.

Senator Duffy raised an issue with credit unions in his county. The credit unions are financial co-operatives in which members can save and lend to each other at fair rates of interest. They are non-profit organisations that have a volunteer ethos and community focus. The Government is supporting and enabling the credit union movement to grow. The Credit Union (Amendment) Act 2023, which was signed into law on 13 December 2023, aims to bring about significant reforms in the sector. It is very significant legislation that will have far-reaching positive implications for credit unions in the years to come. I will raise the issue the Senator referenced with the Minister for Finance and will get back to him on it.

Senator Kyne spoke about Storm Éowyn. One of the objects of this legislation is to ensure the resilience of our cash infrastructure. Recent events in Europe have demonstrated the importance of ensuring such resilience. The Bill contains a number of features to protect cash infrastructure from major disruption as a result of a number of potential issues, including protracted power outages. Section 31 empowers the Central Bank to prescribe by regulation service standards for ATMs. These service standards may include a minimum percentage of time for which an ATM must be operational, withdrawal limits, communication and signage requirements and denomination stocking. Under section 31, ATM operators will have to notify the Central Bank of any business change that could potentially impact on the cash system as a whole. This means that if an ATM operator intends to withdraw a number of ATMs, the Central Bank will receive sufficient notice to notify designated entities of the upcoming change.

Cash-back services offered by retailers when a customer is making a purchase do not fall within the remit of this legislation. A cash-back service is available in many locations countrywide but it does not provide a viable and sustainable alternative to the withdrawal of cash from ATMs. Cash-back services were excluded from the scope of the Bill because, number one, they are voluntary services. A retailer can start and stop offering the service at its own discretion, and retailers come and go. The customer must make a purchase in addition to obtaining cash. Balance inquiry services are not always available. If cash usage and demand were to decline, this would affect the reliability of the service. In addition, retailers are limited by the amount of cash available in their till.

Cash service points are locations where cash can be deposited and withdrawn, with in-person assistance available during normal business hours. Bank branches and post offices satisfy this definition. The purpose of a cash service point is primarily to cover the lodgment function and to fulfil the critical secondary purpose of facilitating assisted cash services for people who, for whatever reason, including disability, cannot use ATMs by themselves.

I have covered most of the queries.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the Minister of State for covering all the points really well. I am fully supportive of this legislation and something that gives me more confidence is the role of the Central Bank under it, which is very important. I have one request of him, without rehashing the legislation, to which no amendments have been tabled, regarding the consultees. As a rural TD serving a constituency that is both rural and urban, the Minister of State is familiar with Irish Rural Link. Would it be possible through his good offices to make some contact with that organisation and include it in the process? Irish Rural Link plays a critical role in representing rural communities. I am not asking the Minister of State to respond today but he might use his good contacts to suggest that it be made a consultee. I do not think there would be a problem with it. I do not want to miss this opportunity to champion the really important advocacy work of Irish Rural Link. The Minister of State might raise in conversation the possibility of adding that important organisation as a consultee.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I welcome to the Gallery the guests of Senator O'Loughlin from Seattle in Washington state. I hope they enjoy their visit to the Seanad and to Leinster House.

Deputy Seán Canney

Senator Boyhan's request is probably covered under my generalised point that other groups may be considered for consultation as appropriate. I would strongly advocate that Irish Rural Link be included.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 6

Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Senator Sarah O'Reilly

I welcome the Bill and commend the efforts being made to ensure people throughout the country can continue to access physical cash. People choose to use cash for a variety of reasons and we must respect that. For some, especially older people, cash is what they know and trust. For those with irregular incomes, cash provides a tangible way to manage budgets. For victims of domestic violence, having access to and control over cash can be a crucial lifeline to autonomy and safety.

I seek clarity on a number of points in the Bill. In Part 2, section 6 provides for a review by the Minister of the access to cash criteria if cash demand decreases by more than 15% in one calendar year compared with the previous year. After such a review, the Minister may amend the criteria. Is it the case that continuing reviews could mean the Minister makes an order in years to come that the baseline for cash services is set at 2025 rather than 2022, for example, and that, in such an eventuality, there will not be genuine protection of access to cash as this could, in all probability, decrease the number of ATMs based on declining cash usage?

While protecting access to cash is vital, we must also urgently consider the ability to spend it. There is little point in protecting people's ability to withdraw cash from an ATM if when they go to buy groceries or attempt to make appointments, they are told the service is card only. More and more businesses, particularly in urban areas, are moving to cashless models. We have already seen attempts to digitise public bodies and services such as the national car test, NCT. That move rightly met with public resistance and served as a warning that we cannot allow convenience to trump inclusivity.

We need an educational programme to operate in conjunction with this Bill. People need to be aware of the legislation to ensure the criteria are being met in their own locality. There is not much point in drafting it if the wider public has no knowledge of how it will expand their right to access to cash.

Deputy Seán Canney

I thank Senator O’Reilly. On the question on why a 15% drop in cash demand has been used, the legislation contains provision for the access to cash criteria to be reviewed in tandem with the updating of census figures and if cash demand drops by more than 15% in a calendar year by comparison with the preceding calendar year, or on the request of the Minister. The Central Bank of Ireland may also undertake a review on its own initiative at any time. Data published by the Central Bank show that cash withdrawals in Ireland declined by 9.69% between June 2023 and June 2024. This year-on-year change is less than 15% and, based on the proposed legislation, not sufficient to result in a review of the access to cash criteria by the bank. However, Eurostat data indicate that a drop in demand of 17% was observed between 2018 and 2019. Cash use in Ireland has been declining gradually. A decline in cash demand of 15% may occur as a result of an external shock to the economy or rapid change in cash demand. This may be driven by technological developments or demographic shifts. The inclusion of the 15% decline criterion for a review allows the Central Bank to undertake a review in the event of an external shock or rapid change in demand. The other criteria allow for a review following changes of a more incremental and responsive nature.

The Department of Finance 2022 retail banking review highlighted that cash still has an important place in the economy, and it is important to consumers in all walks of life. Cash is important because it is a private, secure and instant form of payment. It is also a budgeting tool for many people. It allows individuals such as the elderly or those with special needs to maintain their financial independence. Cash is also necessary for the day-to-day revenue and expenses of many SMEs. The Bill ensures payments in cash remain a sustainable and attainable option for Irish society as a whole. In doing so, it ensures certain vulnerable groups are not excluded from participating in society due to the shift to digital payment options. There is still very strong support for cash and the need for access to cash infrastructure in Ireland.

On Government bodies accepting cash, it is important to state the national payment strategy, NPS, recommends cash acceptance or facilitation in the public sector where a public body levies fines or fees, or where it provides goods and services for a charge. The NPS proposes that all Departments and bodies under their aegis accept a range of electronic and non-electronic payments, including cash. If a body cannot accept cash directly, it must arrange immediately for the facilitation of cash payments via a third party. In November 2024, the Secretary General of the Department of Finance wrote to all other Secretaries General notifying them of this recommendation.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 7 to 51, inclusive, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it intended to take Report Stage?

Senator Pat Casey

Now.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Bill received for final consideration.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take Fifth Stage?

Senator Pat Casey

Now.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Seán Canney)

I thank both the Senators who are present today and who attended the debates on the previous Stages of the Bill in this House and I thank those who attended the debates on the Bill in Dáil Éireann for their contributions and constructive engagement on the legislation. The objectives of the Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill 2024 are to ensure sufficient and effective access to cash in the State, provide a framework to manage future changes in cash infrastructure in a fair, equitable and transparent manner, and bring cash-in-transit providers and independent ATM deployers within the regulatory parameter of the Central Bank of Ireland.

The 2022 review of retail banking in Ireland by the Department of Finance recommended that a framework be put in place to manage future changes to cash infrastructure in the State. The general scheme of this Bill was published in January 2024 and officials from the Department of Finance appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach in February 2024. The committee published its pre-legislative scrutiny report in March 2024 and I thank the members of that committee for their constructive contributions at that stage in the legislative process. I note that many of the recommendations of the committee's report were subsequently included in the Bill.

The publication of the Bill was a priority for this and the previous Government and its smooth passage through the Houses of the Oireachtas would not have been possible without the co-operation of Members across both Houses. This legislation remains a priority for the Government and attention will now turn to the making of regulations, as provided for in the Bill, as soon as possible. The data necessary to set the access to cash criteria and appoint design entities cannot be collected on a statutory basis until a commencement order has been made and laid before the Oireachtas. It is anticipated that this will be done in the coming weeks.

Cash is the preferred method of payment for people for a variety of reasons. Budgeting and privacy are still key benefits of cash and it is a consistent and reliable way to make a payment. This legislation will help to ensure that cash is available when people want it and need it. The Bill ensures that cash remains a sustainable and accessible option for Irish society as a whole and in doing so, it protects people's ability to participate in society. Once again, I thank my colleagues here and in Dáil Éireann for their input and careful consideration of the Bill. I am happy that the Bill has passed all stages and will now go to Uachtarán na hÉireann to be signed into law.

Question put and agreed to.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 5.41 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 6.03 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 5.41 p.m. and resumed at 6.03 p.m.