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Seanad Special Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union díospóireacht -
Thursday, 4 May 2017

Engagement with Industry Representatives

We are back in public session. I do not intend to spend too long on introductions as we have so much ground to cover with our excellent witnesses.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Dillon to make his opening statement.

Mr. Arnold Dillon

I thank the committee for the opportunity to set out some of the views and concerns of business on this crucial issue. As members know, IBEC is the country’s largest business organisation and the voice of Irish business on a domestic, European and international level. We are working to support member companies across the country and in all sectors as they manage the immediate risks of Brexit and plan for disruption into the future.

The IBEC approach to Brexit is threefold. We are working at a domestic level to ensure the Government and relevant State agencies respond swiftly and decisively to support businesses during this period of uncertainty. We need to take immediate action in areas under our control. IBEC has set out its key proposals in a position paper which I have forwarded to the committee. We are working at a national, UK and EU level to ensure Irish interests are protected in the exit negotiations and in the new trading relationship that the UK will have to forge with Europe. Business comes with new ideas and a constructive approach and IBEC will be setting out detailed proposals over the coming weeks. We are working to support member companies as they navigate the challenges of Brexit. A new IBEC guide to Brexit looks at the potential impact on key sectors, as well as at how Brexit may affect currency transactions, supply chains, contracts, financing and the labour force, among other issues. I have sent a digital copy to the committee and have brought hard copies with me.

Preliminary estimates show that the economy grew by 5.2% last year, making Ireland the fastest growing country in the EU for the third year in a row. While growth is very strong, certain components showed some worrying trends as growth in both consumer spending and exports slowed compared with previous years. In 2016, export growth slowed to 2.4%, the joint lowest growth rate since 2008. Growth in goods exports was slightly higher at 4.6%. This was driven by strong growth in exports of electrical equipment and chemicals. As a large proportion of these goods are exported to the US, the strong dollar was a factor. Overall exports excluding these two sectors fell by 4.6% year on year, revealing a weakening for the indigenous export sectors. Goods exports to the UK fell by 3.4% last year mainly as a result of the weak position of sterling. Food exports, of which 44% go to the UK, fell substantially, down 5.2% on the previous year. The weakness in sterling faded a little toward the end of last year. This has given a welcome break to some exporters but there is likely to be further volatility as the year progresses.

Of course, there are potentially bigger challenges ahead. Unless there is a major rethink on the part of the UK, some form of customs border between the Republic and Northern Ireland, and between Ireland and Britain, seems unavoidable. This presents the potential for major economic disruption along with massive logistical headaches. In a worst-case scenario, under current World Trade Organization rules, some meat cuts would attract over 50% tariffs, with dairy tariffs of more than 30%. Although Irish indigenous exporters, two thirds of which are in the food sector, make up just 10% of our exports, they employ more and spend more in the domestic economy than the entire multinational sector. While our reaction has been to promote market diversification, this takes time and is expensive and difficult. It is cheaper to find a new plant than a new market. Little attention has been paid so far to the prospect of Irish food companies moving operations to the UK to avoid tariffs.

What, then, can we do? In the first instance, we must focus on what is within our control. This includes introducing targeted aid for affected companies. To achieve this, we will need the support of our European partners. European fiscal and state aid rules must not become a hindrance to our efforts. An intense focus on cost competitiveness is also required. Brexit will increase the competitive pressures on many businesses. We need to avoid runaway increases in labour costs and to take strategic decisions which could avoid increasing energy, regulatory and insurance costs. As we look to the medium term, and some of the opportunities which may come our way, we need to ramp up public investment far beyond current plans and put in place the quality transport network, education system and housing needed to attract new investment and compete in a post-Brexit world. The regions that are most exposed need particular attention. My colleague Mr. Gerard Brady from the IBEC economics team will be happy to talk through some of the specifics in more detail.

As negotiations begin, Ireland must continue to play a central, collaborative and constructive role in what we can already see will be a fraught process. It is critical that the UK retains as close a relationship as possible to the EU. We need to support these efforts in negotiations. The political settlement in the North must be afforded special attention, along with a continued commitment to the development of the all-island economy. The common travel area between the UK and Ireland must be preserved. The EU-UK divorce bill debate is a minor distraction in economic terms compared with what is ultimately at stake. It is vital that rapid progress is made on exit arrangements in order that meaningful trade talks can begin. Unfortunately, a massive and dangerous gap exists between current UK objectives and what is realistically possible within the parameters of the EU guidelines. It is vital that the shared economic interests of the EU and the UK begin to inform the mood and timetable of negotiations. A far-reaching free trade deal with minimal trade barriers is the goal, while fair competition must, of course, also underpin any new relationship. I thank the members for their time and we look forward to answering any questions.

I thank Mr. Dillon for his very insightful introduction. We will come back to him and Mr. Brady during the questions and answers sessions. I will now move straight on to Ms Patricia Callan, director of the Small Firms Association.

Ms Patricia Callan

I thank the Senators for the opportunity to be here today. The Small Firms Association represents companies that employ fewer than 50 people, which make up 98% of the 238,000 businesses in the country.

We account for half of the jobs and one third of the value of the total Irish economy.

The UK is a key marketplace. It is essentially where all small companies have traditionally learned how to export - same language, same culture, many of the same tastes - and this requires a dramatic change from them going forward. Those in the marketplace are already dealing with the fallout of Brexit, even before it has happened. As the committee has already heard from Enterprise Ireland, there is a real push now to look at diversification and trying to move into new markets. However, taste, for example, in the food sector, is one of the key considerations and that may not be possible. Companies are going to have look at other, more dramatic options.

I would also flag at the outset that despite the fact that the main focus is on export at this stage, only 6.4% of all exports are accounted for by small firms because most businesses and most jobs are in the domestic economy. In our discussions around this, we need to have an eye to what might be the impact for those businesses. My real concern is those businesses think that they are immune to this because they are not in the front line. There is an exercise about trying to get people to start planning and thinking within and outside supply chains of what could be the knock-on implications. For example, tourism will be directly impacted, as will the retail spend and sectors such as the hospitality sector. Moreover, I would say simply that when the UK economy is doing well Ireland is doing well. Therefore, the biggest issue is that if the UK ends up in recession then we will have to move dramatically here in terms of trying to prepare our own economy to withstand that.

In the statement I submitted, I have shared data from the surveys we conduct six-monthly. This one is from November last. We will be conducting one shortly and I will certainly forward the current data to the committee because I know it will be continuing to meet. In November last, 41% of our members stated that this already had a negative impact on them, with 68% expecting it to be more negative in the next six months. Only a minority of 10% of our businesses felt that it would be positive in any way whatsoever.

In real terms, the biggest implication we have seen is that one in two businesses immediately postponed investment decisions. Some are firing ahead going into the market but others simply stated that they needed to wait and see, that this is too uncertain. Some 37% stated it already had a negative impact on their sales in the UK, but the most surprising finding, particularly in the run-up to Christmas, was that 30% of businesses stated they had lost share here at home, with retailers substituting cheaper imports from the UK onto retail shelves here. Before Christmas, we ran a campaign with Love Irish Food that was all about trying to create this whole sense of buying Irish because that will be critically important.

Another change that we have seen, also in their supply change, is that people have started to move to source more raw materials from the UK to act as a natural hedge against the exchange rate and that is having an impact further down the line. We have also seen a minority of 4% make plans to move operations fully or partially out of Ireland and into the UK because it is their biggest market and it makes sense for them to do so. We are beginning to see a trickle effect on employment. Some companies have had to move to redundancies but more have had to move to short term and lay-off, as they have had to drop orders into the UK market.

In terms of the most significant challenges, the exchange rate volatility has been the biggest impact. Only 15% of the small companies would use financial hedging products and they were completely exposed. Nobody expected this to happen. The investment confidence piece is the second challenge. That is why we are seeing a lag in the national growth figures compared to where we would have expected them to be.

Finally, companies very much want us to focus on cost and tax competitiveness, going back to this idea of issues that are in the locus of our own control. In much of what is happening, we are one of 27, we are on the negotiating team - to be fair, we have enjoyed a lot of success in our positioning to date - but we need to be getting match ready in terms of preparing ourselves for what lies ahead.

In my submission, there is a testimonial from a member that is a food company in the midlands. They outline that in their business, which is a low margin business of 3% to 5%, when the exchange rate moved against it, by 11%, 20% or 24% at various times, this meant simply that they had to drop over €3 million in orders and that had an impact on their job times. So far, in reality, the Government has not moved at all to help those sorts of businesses. We have talked about it a lot. What I would like to say today is that we need to be moving to action on the aid package. We have certainly seen good initiatives for raw agriculture, but not for prepared consumer foods and for the broader business community. I will leave the committee to read that statement in its own time.

In terms of the priority actions, as I stated, we need to move now. My concern is that we are more uncompetitive at this time than we may necessarily be post-Brexit. Once Britain is outside the market one would assume it will become more negative for it whereas at present it has an exchange rate that is in its favour, it has already a very attractive tax package for entrepreneurs and for personal tax compared to what we have here, and its cost base is much lower. We need to ensure that our businesses can survive during these two years.

Critically, we also need to keep lobbying the EU to introduce temporary state aid rules, as it did in 2009. We met the EU Commissioners and raised this, and their attitude is that was a financial crisis that affected everyone. This is a crisis of equal scale for our country and they need to accept that. We are beginning to hear that they might be considering it a bit more than they would have.

The Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland has been working on low-cost finance measures for six months. We expected an announcement early in January. We have seen nothing. We need to see those measures out in the marketplace. We need to see specific export trade finance, which is available in most countries but not here, come back as a product too.

The work Enterprise Ireland is doing has been good and it has taken the right approach. However, we must remember that it represents only a small portion of the exporters. Many of our members are not Enterprise Ireland clients. What struck me with all of the new announcements, the new Brexit tool and the associated funding to do a Brexit plan, is that these are only available to Enterprise Ireland clients. We need to stop having these demarcation lines and to think that all affected businesses need these supports. If they are exporting, they should be entitled to them regardless of their client status.

As I mentioned already, a public awareness campaign to raise conceptually the issue of buying Irish is important. In the context of the move to online trading, the committee may be aware that we have an online trading voucher scheme for micro-enterprises - companies with fewer than ten employees - and we would argue the category needs to be raised up to 50 employees. We need to allow all businesses - retailers are on the sharp end of this - to gain a web presence to understand that market. With such practical measures that are already in place, it is simply about investing more funding and ramping up the delivery of them.

We have already been working closely over the past number of months. In terms of the negotiating teams in the UK and the EU, there has been good recognition of Ireland's issues, including the land border with the UK and the issues around customs - physically, getting one's product around the place. The freedom of movement of people is also viewed as critical. Our common travel area has to be protected at all cost; it is the top priority for SFA members in that more strategic longer-term frame.

We need to focus on cost competitiveness. That goes back to labour costs, the minimum wage, joint labour committees and public sector pay deals, all of which have knock-on implications in the private sector. Other committees of the Houses are working on insurance, where we have seen increases of over 33% in the cost of motor insurance. If one looks at issues such as the commercial rates review that is causing havoc around the country and the 2% differential in aid, through to public sector pay, all of these issues act against our companies and are issues the Government can move and act on. I encourage the committee to tackle them.

I repeat my plea to Brexit-proof budget 2018. That involves man-marking the UK in terms of what it is offering already. Post Brexit it will probably become even more attractive. If we do not have a CGT entrepreneur's rate of 10% up to, as it has, £10 million - our limit is €1 million - and if I am deciding today to set up a software company, would I set up here or would I go to the UK? We must start thinking about how to make it more attractive for people to set up in business.

Clearly we advocate a soft Brexit, trying to keep Britain as close to us as possible, and in the Single Market and customs union. Equally, strategically we need to be planning about our future and working with other European countries in terms of gaining new allies. We have been on the coat-tails of the EU on many issues, in particular, on regulatory issues. We, as an organisation, and the Government will have to step up to that into the future.

I thank the members of the committee for their attention and I am happy to discuss matters they may wish to raise.

I thank Ms Callan. That tied in nicely with some of the presentations we heard earlier today. I next call on Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald, the agrifood economist for the Alcohol Beverage Federation of Ireland, ABFI.

Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald

My name is Ciaran Fitzgerald. I have 30 years' experience in the agrifood business and I was commissioned by the alcohol beverage federation to look at the impact of Brexit on the industry. I produced a report which has been shared with this committee. I am joined today by Mr. Ross Mac Mathúna, director of ABFI, who will answer questions.

The following is our view and what comes out of an analysis of Brexit.

When we look at all the elements of our trade with the UK, especially for food and drink products, what we have is a cumulative €12 billion trade. That is made up of €4.5 billion worth of product that goes from Ireland to the UK in the food and drink sector and €3.5 billion worth of imports. There is also a significant cross-Border trade and tourism contribution. If €7 billion was spent last year by tourists in Ireland, 40% of those tourists came from the sterling area. Therefore, it is clear that trade relations and currency exchange rates between the UK and ourselves have a dramatic impact. Since the Brexit vote in June, all of those impacts have been against Irish business on the export and import sides in terms of cost comparisons.

The drinks industry produces, brews, distils and distributes products throughout Ireland. The concerns with Brexit relate to competitiveness and ongoing access. As mentioned previously, there is extensive access to the UK market. The reality is that all Irish products going to Europe go through the UK market. That is an ongoing issue.

One of the major challenges facing the sector has been illustrated by the short-term impact of sterling. I am referring to cost competitiveness. In that context, we believe there needs to be a major focus on the cost of doing business in Ireland, including the way we tax business, the way we tax consumption and elements of regulation that are currently being looked at. In that context, two key issues jump out for the drinks sector. One is excise duty. At the moment, Ireland has the highest priced alcohol in the European Union. We have the second or third highest rate of excise. We know from 2008 and 2009, when sterling weakened significantly, that we can get significant cross-Border trade. This draws more than simply alcohol consumption out of our market. It draws considerable consumption throughout the grocery sector and takes out badly needed income. Therefore, we need to be pragmatic and competitive with regard to our excise tax. We need to look at a situation whereby that is not sustainable. A tax that is so high that it is ignored is not worth being a tax.

The second element of these costs is the cost of doing business here, especially the cost of regulation as it comes from the proposed public health (alcohol) Bill. Many of the measures in that Bill will ultimately put up costs in Ireland without having in any way established on an evidential basis that they will have an impact on the consumption or abuse of alcohol. We need to be pragmatic at a time when we are trying to support jobs throughout the economy, especially jobs in the rural economy. We need to ensure that we are not committing own goals in respect of aspects that would put up costs.

In addition to the remarks on excise, I wish to point out that, as part of the public health (alcohol) Bill, the proposals on minimum unit pricing would further put up alcohol prices here. I realise it has been clearly stated that these will only be introduced here if they are introduced across the Border. Again, with the restrictions on advertising and some of the other aspects of the proposed Bill, what we are getting is a situation whereby the cost of either continuing to do business for companies in the South or the cost for new entrants to the business here will become very high for small companies seeking to get involved in the business.

In recent years, there has been an increased interest in growing the drinks sector in Ireland. We are fortunate that the large companies in the sector have invested significantly. A total of €400 million has been invested in the brewing and distilling sector in the past five years. That began even before the economic recovery. Those investments have deep rural roots in Ireland not only in terms of the pubs and tourism they support, but in terms of the ingredients bought in the economy.

There is a renewed view that whiskey distilling and micro-brewing have become growth areas. We have plans to increase the numbers of whiskey distilleries to approximately 20 in the coming five years. As well as increasing business operations in the community, these enterprises have an ongoing tourism impact. We know that 650,000 whiskey tourists visited Ireland last year. That number will grow to 1.5 million by 2024.

I will conclude by echoing elements of what has been said previously. There are clear issues around the support of industry that need to be looked at in the context of state aid. The philosophy and ideology behind state aid rules is that the Single Market is operating. The exit of the UK is a fracture of the Single Market. To apply constraints on state aid rules when the market is fractured simply does not make sense. Unfortunately, we have seen a sluggish rate of recovery by Europe from the recent 2008 and 2009 recession because of a fixation on an ideology around the restriction of state aid support. It only leads to recession and austerity. It is important that the background to these controls is examined and that a case is made to recognise the reality. It is important to deliver on the fact that whatever about the motives and origin of the decision of the UK to leave the European Union, Irish taxpayers and consumers should not become worse off because the United Kingdom decided to leave the European Union. In that context and in order to strengthen our case that state aid should be examined, we really should look at the prices, costs, taxes and regulations that are within our control. That means looking clinically at excise and the public health (alcohol) Bill.

Mr. Kevin Thompson

It is my pleasure to present the views of the insurance industry to the committee today on Brexit as well as our proposed solutions to some of the key challenges that exist as a result of it. I believe these hearings are important. Insurance Ireland is available to support the work of the committee in any way that it can.

By way of background, I am keen to give the committee an overview of who we are and what we do. We are the representative body for the insurance industry. We have over 140 member companies throughout all classes of insurance, reinsurance and captive management. I will set out some figures to give the committee an impression of the scale of the industry. Total industry employment is approximately 28,000 people, made up of those employed directly and indirectly. Insurance Ireland members pay out more than €13 billion in claims and benefits to Irish consumers each year. Gross premium income for our membership was €51 billion in 2015. The industry holds €200 billion in assets under management, with €35 billion invested in Irish infrastructure or Government debt. We pay €1.8 billion in tax and one in four jobs in financial services are in insurance.

Our members take on the risks of individuals, households and businesses and are involved in almost every aspect of economic activity in the country. Under the umbrella of insurance, products range from international insurance to reinsurance, health, protection products and pensions. These sectors need regulatory staff, underwriters, loss adjustors and sales staff among others. The breadth and depth of the industry are considerable. As an industry based on risk management, we are accustomed to dealing with changing circumstances, but Brexit is a unique challenge.

Insurance is a global business and within Europe it has developed for providers in the Single Market. This means we have companies with operations in many countries serving different markets. Ireland has benefited greatly from the market and has developed into an international insurance hub. Also, given our proximity to the UK, we complement and compete with the UK market. Given this interconnectedness there are two distinctive sides to the coin for us. The first is the potential upside. We are ambitious for the sector and want to maximise the potential inward investment from companies looking for a base to maintain European market access. However, there are potential down-sides too. As well as the threats to the domestic economy, a substantial proportion of our membership export to the UK. They require access to the UK market on existing terms in the same way as the agrifood sector and others.

Therefore, Brexit must be seen in the context of keeping existing jobs as much as it is seen as gaining new ones. Winning new investments is the key to keeping existing jobs since we are in a competitive international market and the credibility and attractiveness of a location are determined by the players in the market.

In addition, any Brexit-related impact on the domestic economy will have an impact on spending and potentially the purchase of discretionary insurance products with the risk that households and businesses take on risks that could materialise and result in severe financial hardship.

We surveyed parts of our membership on two occasions in recent months on Brexit. In December, we surveyed our independent non-executive directors, INEDs, who are an important constituency with a broad industry perspective. At the time, 75% saw more opportunities than challenges arising from Brexit. In March, we surveyed the chief executive officers, CEOs, and chief risk officers, CROs, of our member companies and found a change in outlook. A total of 45% of our CEOs and CROs saw more opportunities and 55% saw more challenges arising from Brexit. Admittedly, these are different groups but it was a clear change in outlook. We also asked our CEOs and CROs about a potential "Brexit dividend" for Dublin and to rate the key priorities to realise this. The response in order of priority was addressing the regulatory considerations, infrastructural bottlenecks, personal taxation, availability of talent, and competitiveness issues. This should not be read as a wish list from the industry, but it does point to areas we need to consider for insurance but also for many other sectors.

I refer to one of these issues, in particular, which is regulation, and how we can develop a proposal to protect and grow the sector here. The European goal has been to create a single market for insurance subject to adherence to certain criteria such as standardisation of solvency ratios. The directive covering this is Solvency II. This is a directive in European law that codifies and harmonises EU insurance regulation. Primarily, this concerns the amount of capital that EU insurance companies must hold to reduce the risk of insolvency. The regulatory regime is administered by national supervisory authorities and there is an element of national interpretation of standards, which is allowed. The development and implementation of Solvency II took approximately 20 years and came at a cost of €4 billion to implement across Europe and approximately €150 million in Ireland. Using Solvency II as a guideline, we are reiterating a proposal we made last year for two regulatory reforms which we believe would have a significant impact in terms of managing the downside and maximising the upside.

The first is grandfathering. This is where there is approval in principle for insurance undertakings that are regulated in other jurisdictions. For example, if the UK's Prudential Regulation Authority, PRA, licenses an existing company and it has a good record, then this should be a credit in the approval process and the Central Bank of Ireland should say it will allow the entity to trade on a similar basis to the circumstances in the UK. In short, this is an approval in principle approach based on the good standing of an equivalent regulatory authority. The second is a regulatory corridor. This is a joint grandfathering arrangement between the UK and Ireland. There is a desire for such an arrangement within the UK. This would allow for rapid approval of Irish entities who are seeking to export their services to the UK.

Brexit is a set of circumstances characterised by volatility and uncertainty. These proposals can provide reassurance to the domestic industry and facilitate new entrants in a manner that supports the UK and EU insurance markets. Solvency II is a robust regulatory system - I refer to the stress tests published in December 2016 to illustrate this - and Ireland should exploit this to its advantage. The proposals outlined above are in line with Solvency II and would allow us to realise the potential in our industry. They are also within our control, can be deployed quickly and would add to our standing as an enterprise-friendly destination within the EU.

Last, but by no means least, I welcome Mr. John McGrane, director general of the British Irish Chamber of Commerce.

Mr. John McGrane

On behalf of the board and members of the British Irish Chamber of Commerce, I thank the committee for inviting my colleagues and I to make a presentation. The British Irish Chamber of Commerce is the only organisation focused exclusively on the trade between Ireland and the UK, championing it, protecting it from being undermined and increasing its current value of more than €60 billion per annum and the 400,000 jobs which that sustains directly and many more indirectly. We respect the will of the UK people to leave the EU but a bad outcome for the UK in its future trade relationship with the EU would also be a bad outcome for Ireland and because of the extent of our connectedness economically, culturally and otherwise, we have much with which to concern ourselves.

Brexit has rightly been described by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade as the most important challenge faced by the island of Ireland in modern times. While Brexit is about more than the economy, I appreciate that the committee's focus today is on economic challenges and on seeking potential solutions and, therefore, I will confine my remarks to that context. The UK is Ireland's largest two-way trading partner not just for our exports, but even more so for our imports. It is not often highlighted, because no other organisation speaks to the business of importers, that while the UK accounts for about 16% of our exports - this figure increases to 50% for indigenous firms - we also depend on the UK as the source of approximately 33% of our imports, and as a relatively small island economy without the UK's heavy industrial manufacturing tradition, we need those imports to keep our own economy running efficiently and competitively and to sustain thousands of jobs in retailing, packaging, medical devices, clothing, food processing and many more sectors.

Turning to such effects of Brexit as we can predict, the Economic and Social Research Institute has calibrated that, depending on just how hard a Brexit we end up with, UK-Ireland trade could decline by as much as 20% as a consequence of Brexit, with the loss of as many as 40,000 jobs and a decline in Irish GDP of as much as 3.5% over subsequent years. Based on current GDP figures, that amounts to a €9 billion loss and rising to the economy. Nobody in Ireland would be unaffected. Given the nature our open economy, every business and employer in Ireland effectively either trades with the UK or trades with somebody else who does. If someone is a barber in Barberstown, he or she does not export to the UK but he or she probably cuts the hair of somebody from Intel, which does. The UK and Ireland have always traded together and we always will but because of tariff and non-tariff costs imposed by Brexit, the problem is that trade will be at lower value and will, therefore, support fewer jobs. The most exposed sectors are food and agribusiness, where WTO tariffs would make our exports significantly more expensive to the UK consumer, and tourism, where a weaker sterling and barriers to free movement of people could make Ireland a less attractive destination for our largest tourism market, which is the UK. In the same way, there would be a loss of opportunity in education and research where British, Northern Irish and Irish students and researchers currently choose freely between our respective colleges.

A hard Brexit with no deal between the UK and the EU for free movement of people, goods, services and capital would present these and many more examples of barriers to the conduct of business, trade, investment and employment in the ways we have come to take for granted since we joined the EU together with the UK more than 40 years ago. While nobody has left anybody yet, the effects of the risk that such a hard Brexit could result in are being seen, with Irish businesses looking to establish operations within the UK to protect their access to the more than 60 million consumers in the UK while retaining their Irish business to serve the EU. I refer to the example of a call centre in Dundalk servicing the customers of a UK retailer. Ireland has particular competencies in this area. Faced with the need to match sterling income with sterling costs, it can simply pull out the phones in Dundalk and plug them back in in Newry, and it is no surprise that some are thinking this way, with consequent danger to employment in the Republic. The good news is that almost nobody anywhere wants a hard Brexit. It seems certain that few, if any, of the UK voters who voted to leave in last year's referendum meant that the UK should negotiate to walk over a cliff to an inability to trade with an EU it knows or with others who have shown no urgency to agree new bilateral trade partnerships.

In general, we can assume that, political buffeting aside, the shared focus of all negotiators will be on achieving a soft Brexit with managed trade and managed movement of people, ideally with minimal operational intrusion on day-to-day community or business life. Key to this will be to intelligently square the circle of the UK's rejection of free movement of people with the shared UK-EU desire for free trade among 28 countries. That will be challenging for all member states but of all the regions of these islands, Northern Ireland is the most exposed to the downsides of Brexit and, therefore, most in need of ensuring the softest possible separation from the EU. Solutions for Brexit's threats to Northern Ireland touch all of the wider Brexit risks - border checkpoints, proof of origin of goods in transit, proof of nationality and status of non-nationals, fishing rights, access to markets and continuity of key EU support programmes. Physical security of communities in Northern Ireland is heavily predicated on economic security for the region and on the avoidance of abuse of economic freedom as much as civic freedom. While we know that here, it is a huge achievement of Irish political and diplomatic skills that the unique circumstances of this island are to be given particular acknowledgement in the context of the forthcoming Brexit negotiations. However, as First Vice-President Timmermans said, it will take all of Ireland's famed creativity to devise ways and means by which this island's particular needs can be satisfied "in the context of EU Law".

What we need to do, and we need to start doing this now, is to bring together business and legal expertise to quickly develop fully thought through and legally proofed solutions for our negotiators. It seems that key to stress-testing of any of those measures will be their impact in the context of Northern Ireland. Thus, we have to devise solutions for Brexit that work for Northern Ireland, softening the terms of the UK's departure from the European Union and from the customs union. The British Irish Chamber of Commerce sectoral policy and Brexit committee fora, led by my colleagues Mr. Paul Lynam and Ms Katie Daughen, who are accompanying me today, span our hundreds of member firms, who together employ over 2 million people. They are focused on solutions of the type I will reference. These member firms bring together the experience and expertise of numerous businesses that know the issues and are motivated to solve them for the good of all. Our focus now is on working together with public representatives and agencies such as Enterprise Ireland, Revenue and customs officials and so on to develop practical solutions, including anti-abuse measures, that acknowledge the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. It will take further time to proof any concepts to an adequate degree but the following are some potential ways forward that are currently under consideration in the work we are doing with member firms.

On free movement of people, bearing in mind that there is a difference between a person's right to travel and the procedures to validate that right, such as presenting one's Irish passport prior to boarding a flight to Dublin from the UK, the solution might be fully preserving the common travel area, notwithstanding that it has never operated with both Ireland and the UK either in or out of the EU. To ensure anti-abuse of free movement between Ireland and the UK, we may need to introduce a system of well managed movement, as is already the practice in Belgium, to which EU citizens, including us, may move for work but if we fail to get it within three months, we have to leave. We also need to confirm continuity of the existing shared visa waiver schemes between Ireland and the UK, which enable citizens from other nations, particularly Asia, to visit both islands on one permit.

On free trade in goods, bearing in mind that truck drivers are already accustomed to presenting other documents when boarding vessels, etc., the solution might be a pre-clearance model for through-traffic, that is, trucks and drivers, regardless of the driver's nationality, that pass through the UK landbridge to and from the EU, which is vital to Irish business. For trade with Britain and Northern Ireland, Irish traders could pre-register loads through an easily accessible online platform and already used portable or fixed number plate recognition and-or GPS locator systems that can track movement of those loads. We do not propose the Norway-Sweden border model, which limits the number of border crossing points, thus rendering some roads as unapproved - we know what that means here - and which allows for hot pursuit - we also know what that means here - by border police into each other's territories for up to 15 km in either direction, nor do we propose fixed checkpoints at either today's national border or air or sea ports where the physical infrastructure to address massive slowing of freight in transit would be impossible to provide and impossibly disruptive of trade, not least in fresh or chilled food trade, which is hugely important to the Irish economy. Reasonable anti-abuse measures will need to be provided to allow mobile spot-checks for proof of origin throughout the UK and Ireland. On free trade in services, which are very important, bearing in mind that services, ranging widely from education to legal advisers to downloadable software, are typically provided by mobile persons, which are to be treated as provided for in my earlier remarks, or through internationally transmitted data, the issue will be to enable unrestricted payment for such services between the UK and Ireland, without exchange controls of the type previously a feature of certain UK-Ireland transactions. It is not that long since we had exchange controls here.

On fishing, we believe the UK will not set as high a priority on retrieving its pre-EU fishing grounds as it will on ensuring the stability of Northern Ireland and on ensuring maximum market access for fish caught by UK fishermen so we propose that today's status quo of fishing rights as between Ireland and the UK remain as is.

On energy, as set out in the most recent publication by the British Irish Chamber of Commerce, the well-being of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Britain depends on access to an energy supply which is resilient, decarbonised and competitive. The best way to assure this is through physical interconnection of existing and planned energy connectors between our two islands and between North and South on this island.

On financial services, there is a natural co-habitation and complementarity in delivery of financial services among service providers on both islands, both grounded in common law, unlike the European system, and frequently working to each other's natural competencies. For its economic security, Northern Ireland needs to retain its opportunity to trade in these services with the Republic of Ireland and so provision should be made for a trade corridor for a pre-agreed menu of passported services between us.

Alongside all of these provisions, the UK and Ireland will need to give disrupted operators phased support for adjustment to the new environment. Such supports may be both financial and non-financial, including training and new market development advice and so on. Above and beyond such operational provisions as I have outlined, Ireland and the UK will need to invest in assuring the infrastructure for long-term successful growth in the economy and in our communities. For us, this must, as the great Dr. T.K. Whitaker knew, include assuring the future of the highest quality of third level and postgraduate education in this country. An immediately actionable step towards this would be to implement the proposals of the languishing Cassells report now.

At fair cost to the UK in contributions, etc., there is also the need to preserve EU funding programmes into Britain and Northern Ireland. Regardless of the timing of changed arrangements, we clearly have to provide together for a phased transition model to give all affected adequate time to prepare. We also suggest that there is now scope to craft together the wider opportunity of a UK-Ireland powerhouse model. In the context of newly shaped arrangements, Ireland and Britain can leverage our respective competencies in manufacturing and services, education and research, food and tourism, technology and cyber and at the same time deliver convergent costs of doing business on either side of the Border. This will promote more trade and employment among us, not less, supported by initiatives like the chamber's British Irish Gateway for Trade project which connects many more UK and Irish businesses online and with the involvement of trade support agencies such as Enterprise Ireland, UKTI and the various chambers of commerce throughout Ireland.

The agenda for action is clearly huge and apart from anything else there will be a practical need to avoid swamping our negotiators with more questions than answers. To that specific end, the British Irish Chamber of Commerce invites the Government to engage a tight, well-resourced collective of business representation, including ourselves, IBEC, SFA, the CBI from the UK, including Northern Ireland, the Institute of International and European Affairs, IIEA, and the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, to draw together the business community first to triage the issues offline and to bring forward really powerful solutions that are fully worked-up and already proofed to satisfy the EU legislative agenda. For example, the Government can have understandable difficulty commissioning any one law firm to advise it, but this expert group could bring together the best legal thinking of Ireland and the UK so as to bring forward proposals capable of making it through the negotiating process, ideally in ways which can also strengthen the EU itself, as is required for its future viability. The British Irish Chamber of Commerce will be glad to lead and facilitate this collective contribution to the work of Government, the Oireachtas and our negotiating officials and we strongly commend this valuable offer to the committee for consideration and endorsement.

Thank you, Mr. McGrane. Before we proceed, I must appeal to members to keep their contributions brief and to confine them to questions, directing specific questions to specific witnesses. I will lead by example. My first question is to Mr. McGrane. In regard to infrastructure, has the British Irish Chamber of Commerce identified any priority areas for strategic capital investment? My second question is to Mr. Thompson. We are reading many reports in the media that Ireland, in terms of insurance services, is losing out post-Brexit. Luxembourg is being mentioned as a country that we are losing out to, and if that is true, how can it be addressed? If it is not true, how can we address that perception?

I thank all of the delegates for attending today and for the time they spent on putting their presentations together. I was very interested in Mr. McGrane's suggestion that we seek to bring together various organisations - a powerhouse of interested parties - to draft the Irish strategy. I compliment him on that excellent idea.

I would like to know if any of the organisations have examined the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. We are clearly not allowed any bilateral negotiations when it comes to Brexit but under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement there is nothing stopping us having bilateral discussions, which may lead to recommendations which, in turn, may find their way into the overall negotiations.

The opening of plants in the UK was mentioned by IBEC.

That would move jobs out of the Irish economy, which is something that would be of concern to me. How is it proposed to maintain job numbers if we move plant out of the country? Has the Small Firms Association carried out research in respect of the knock-on effects on organisations lower down the food chain, such as suppliers to manufacturers which in turn export to the UK? Short-term lay-offs were mentioned. Do we have numbers in this regard?

In the context of food and beverages and the alcohol industry, when we speak about putting in place supports, particularly to allow for market diversification, I assume we are referring to short-term supports to allow for diversification into global markets and not ongoing subsidies to maintain unviable organisations.

I know of an insurance company in the North which was considering moving to the South. It has postponed this move because of the uncertainty surrounding Brexit. Is there any evidence in this regard?

In deference to the Chairman's wishes and the time constraints, I will ask specific questions. The first is to Mr. Fitzgerald. He spoke about below-cost selling. Does this dislocate jobs in bars and pubs throughout the country? Does it cost the State enormous money in the areas of health and justice, in this sense disadvantaging the country facing into Brexit?

It was stated that €13 billion was paid in insurance claims. Is it not the case that insurance costs are rocketing and that this is disadvantaging firms more than Brexit? The public liability premium on a small licensed premises in my village has increased from €1,800 to €3,300 this year. There is a similar issue with car insurance. In deference to the Chairman, I will not elaborate but the witnesses get my point. It is a huge issue, which is worse than Brexit in some respects.

The representative from IBEC spoke about targeted help. What does he mean specifically? What could realistically be done which would be sensible and useful and which we, as politicians, could advocate?

Are the organisations before the committee already lobbying independently of the Government in Europe and, if so, how? I ask the witnesses to tell us about specific tariffs that might be introduced in the context of the amounts that would be charged, how these tariffs would work, how they would inhibit trade and the type of firms that they might be likely to put out of business.

I thank Senator O'Reilly and appreciate his brevity.

To pick up on what Senator O'Reilly said, we have heard from the Small Firms Association and IBEC. We have identified areas with difficulties and we are looking at how we can assist to diversify markets and new products. Ms Callan gave a particular example of somebody with a profit margin of 3% to 5% exporting to the British market, and how the currency fluctuation floors somebody in this situation. I wish to make a comment in the round as the witnesses are representing various facets of industry. People have derived benefits from the drop in the cost of fuel but the multiples by which insurance premiums are increasing is the elephant in the room. Senator O'Reilly mentioned the €13 billion in payments. Mr. Thompson stated that €51 billion is being taken in. A lot of the mystery still has not been cleared up in the context of profits going to shareholders, what is really happening in terms of claims and the fact that the finger is being pointed with regard to awards, etc.

Small businesses are trying to ride out what will happen with Brexit but not only do they have problems with their public liability insurance being unaffordable, in rural areas where people must have a car - it is not luxury because there is no public transport - young drivers cannot afford to be insured in order that they might get to work. These are realities coming from the people represented by the witnesses. This must feed into it and it feeds into competitiveness. The insurance industry will not have customers to take out insurance policies in certain areas and people have been put out of business because they cannot afford insurance. This is a reality, aside from whatever else the Government can do. It seems that any good the Government can do is being taken back with the other hand by the insurance industry through increases in premiums. This view has been expressed already, but what is happening is appalling.

Without turning this into an insurance inquiry, I wish to elaborate on what has already been said in the broader context. By virtue of the fact that the witnesses have been brought before the committee in one group, they are all sitting in front of us. Have they sat together prior to today? What issues that they have flagged have they tried to address among themselves? Before Mr. Thompson got a chance to make his contribution, Ms Callan stated that insurance is an issue. She mentioned companies in the group which have suspended investment and which are actively considering relocation. Without getting into specific names and details, will she elaborate a little more on this? Is the suspension of investment specifically Brexit-related or is it due to some of the issues already mentioned, such as escalating insurance costs?

I thank the witnesses who have contributed. I wish to zero in very briefly on what Mr. McGrane has told us about his proposal for a collective think-in on the flexible and imaginative solutions with which the European Union is asking Ireland to come forward. Throughout the morning I have been asking people where is this debate, who is driving it, are we depending on five civil servants in the Taoiseach's Department or is there a collective channel of communication and a national debate on what the flexible solutions are. The former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, came before the committee and spoke about a common trade area, and whether this would be North-South or east-west in nature is another day's work. The special position of Northern Ireland is hugely important for all the reasons mentioned.

I am supposed to ask a question rather than make a statement. Is this the first time Mr. McGrane has ventilated this idea in public and is he getting acceptance of it? To me, it is the most important proposal and we should begin now to focus on the positive invitation from the European Union to come up with this flexible and imaginative deal for Ireland. We just have to do it. I felt this morning, and I do not want to say anything about the previous contributions made prior to this particular session, that there is a sense of what might be termed "spectatorhood". These solutions will not come from five civil servants in three Departments.

They will have to come from a much broader section. That is all I am saying.

I will come back to each witness individually. Some general questions have been asked as well as some specific ones. I would appreciate it if the witnesses addressed them where relevant. I will go in reverse order and start with Mr. McGrane.

Mr. John McGrane

I will pick up on the earliest question with a very quick name check against specific infrastructure opportunities. We have the only Government in Europe with a national strategy for housing, which is a very good thing and we need to move as fast as we possibly can to execute it. Education is a key current and long-term infrastructure piece. We need to implement the Cassells report and get on with a funded, viable, globally-competitive education system. We need to build a second runway at Dublin Airport for air access, so let us get on with it. With regard to capital investment in the economy, we have a broadband strategy which is great but we need to move faster to roll it out. We also need balanced regional recovery.

This is not about Dublin, or indeed Cork, good as both are, but about achieving a response that is long-term, Whitaker-esque, has a 60 year view and has a vision for recovery for the whole of Ireland through some of the opportunities that present themselves now. That is not least considering the threat to agriculture and tourism, which is clearly a provincial issue.

Senator McDowell's question is an important one. The work that is being done by the five civil servants and others has been of an extraordinarily high grade. The work of the British Irish Chamber of Commerce spans the UK and Ireland, and indeed the EU. We know of no other government or government team supported by civil servants and diplomats that has done as much work with such focus to such excellent outcomes. We put that on the record. Many of us have stood to let that work happen. We did not disappear but waited alongside. We have sat one chair behind our colleagues so that they could do the hard work at diplomatic level that had to happen first. That was done below the radar, when many out on the street where asking where the Minister for Brexit was and what the plan was. We had the privilege of knowing the work that was being done, and they have brought it in. The onus now moves to business and the rest of society to play our part. Of course, it is too big a task to ask diplomats and civil servants, and Ministers and the Taoiseach, dare I say, to come up with the solutions. Business, which in the UK was fatally silent before the referendum, now knows that it has to play its part.

On the specific question of whether we had met before and ventilated this, this is an emerging work in progress between people of like mind across diverse franchises, people who represent one territory or one cohort. The unique position of the British Irish Chamber of Commerce as a two island neutral organisation involves a responsibility to think on that broad plane. We are happy to bring that forward for consideration and we will ventilate it with our colleagues and like minded organisations.

The proposal by the British Irish Chamber of Commerce is an excellent one. I am surprised that it was not approached already. It should be one of the key recommendations of our report.

On the insurance industry and the idea of grandfathering and joint corridors and so on, again it is very credible. We had the Central Bank in here in an earlier session, and one of the issues that I raised is that it has changed its rules and is not in the business of promoting Ireland as a location. It simply sees itself as a regulatory body. Do central banks in other European countries promote themselves? Are their regulatory systems promoting their countries as locations for the insurance industry in a way that we are no longer doing?

With regards the contribution from the Alcohol Beverage Federation of Ireland, I am not quite sure how the public health (alcohol) Bill is related to Brexit. Can the witness please outline how that relates? We have had much debate here on that matter.

Mr. Kevin Thompson

I will address the question on insurance costs and premiums, because it is a competitive issue and ultimately feeds into the debate we are having on Brexit. The Senator highlighted that we take in €51 billion in premiums and only pay out €13 billion in claims. We need to clarify that. As per the early part of my opening statement, our 140 member companies include both domestic insurers servicing the local domestic economy and insurers based here in Ireland not taking premium from the Irish economy, but inward premium from foreign jurisdictions. They have no interaction within this jurisdiction. If one looks at the general insurers who operate in this market, across motor insurance and public and employer liability insurance, the industry has suffered a loss of €875 million over a four year period, and that has been validated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Unfortunately, premiums have increased, but the mechanisms which the Department of Finance, through the cost of insurance working group, has implemented have led to 33 recommendations being brought forward, involving 71 action points, which we as an industry have actively engaged in. The two real recommendations which carry the most severe rating is the work that will come out of the personal injuries commission, under Mr. Justice Nicholas Kearns. That will be looking to have a standardisation of grading of injuries and at benchmarking our level of awards against other jurisdictions. Equally, we are looking at enhancing the powers of the Injuries Board so that we can take ancillary costs out of non-contentious cases and we can get claims through and get them paid more effectively on a daily basis. Ultimately premiums come back to the cost of claims, and until we actually see the outputs of these recommendations coming through we are at a new norm. We are acutely aware of it, and aware of the distress that it has posed to our consumers, but as an industry we are actively engaged in coming forward with solutions to address the cost of claims.

On the final question on promotion, we would like to recognise that we work with IDA Ireland, the Department of Finance and the Department of the Taoiseach on a daily basis and do a sterling job in trying to promote this jurisdiction as a jurisdiction of choice for financial services. Other countries do the same, but within the promotional ecosystem that they have, regulators would be involved. That is the case with Luxembourg.

Does that include the central banks?

Mr. Kevin Thompson

Yes, they are part of that.

I find it amazing that officials from the Central Bank were in here this morning and could not tell this committee whether any other European central banks were involved in promoting their countries as a location.

Mr. Kevin Thompson

In other countries they have a joined-up approach between their treasury-department of finance and their regulator. We know that from our experience. On the question of whether Ireland is losing out and what we can do in terms of addressing the perception around that, it is unfortunate that in recent weeks we have seen high-profile cases that have been decided in favour of other jurisdictions - not just one jurisdiction, but we have seen decisions in favour of Luxembourg and Brussels, and unfortunately Dublin has come up second best.

I go back to my statement on our proposed solutions. If we look at the implementation of Solvency II since 1 January 2016, it is a harmonised and robust prudential framework. It is based on the risk profiling of each individual company. Within that, national supervisory authorities have a certain amount of leeway in how they actually apply it. We firmly believe, particularly in the context of Brexit and for companies that are regulated by the Prudential Regulation Authority in the UK, which is a regulatory authority the equal to our jurisdiction, that if companies have gone through a robust approval process in that jurisdiction and are under a common Solvency II-EU framework and seeking to re-domicile some of their business so that they can maintain access to the European framework, that should be taken into account. If it is taken into account, we believe it helps us in terms of stabilising our insurance market, it helps the UK in terms of its access to Europe, but more importantly it helps the European insurance market as well. That would be the first point.

In terms of a regulatory corridor, we know from dialogue between our membership that the PRA, for companies that are based here and accessing the UK market, faces the same challenge. If we could get a regulatory corridor in place it would help greatly. If we have this grandfathering idea and have an approval in principle - we know some other jurisdictions are doing that and then working through the detail - it would help greatly in terms of perception.

There was another question asked about an insurance company in the North considering relocating to the South. From an insurance perspective it is a huge decision and it takes time to decide on a location if one decides to exit the UK. There are many considerations at play, such as infrastructure and housing, but the most heavily weighted consideration is the regulatory environment and how that regulatory environment is operated within this jurisdiction.

I think I have covered all the points.

Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald

In the first instance, I want to address the overall issue of how Ireland Inc. best approaches this issue. I accept the point that was well made that there is a need for a collaborative approach. As well as looking at ways in which they have to become leaner and more competitive due to the short-term currency movement, never mind the possibility of a hard or soft Brexit, many companies have been involved in the discussions at European level about the famous stricture that is state aid. It used to be the case in the 1970s and 1980s that if one had a good idea for something constructive and one went to the Government, the Department of Finance was usually blamed for blocking and for the fact that a good idea could not take place. State aid has become this all-encompassing stricture on practical ways in which one deals with the now, which is that there is a fracture of the European market, one of its biggest members is leaving, a member state that happens to be geographically beyond that member state will be hugely disadvantaged and Europe should not tell us that the rules that apply under normal circumstances should apply now. Unfortunately, one of the issues that arises when we talk to people in the European Commission is that Ireland has not put up its hand and said it wants state aid to change. The first thing that has to happen before we get into what may be done is that Ireland must put up its hand and say we recognise that these are exceptional circumstances.

That is in the generality. With regard to some of the points made on the drinks and alcohol industry, there was a ban on below cost selling in Ireland up until 2006. It lasted from 1987 to 2006. It was abolished by the then Government and the drinks industry has called for the ban to be reintroduced. A ban on below-cost selling was introduced in England and Wales three years ago and has worked very well. It addresses the issue of people buying extremely low-cost alcohol and, more importantly, supermarkets using alcohol as a loss leader whereby one comes in for the cheap beer and the supermarket recovers its revenue on the other products one buys, but clearly it is both socially undesirable and also misleading to consumers and involves all sorts of price bundling. There is a solution to that level of abuse that is addressed by the reintroduction of a ban on below-cost selling.

With regard to that and the overall point about the public health (alcohol) Bill, the proposal is for minimum unit pricing and an Irish-only label when EU labelling regulations are about to come through which are far more constructive. All of those things, plus the proposed restrictions on advertising, are imposing costs on business in Ireland that will do absolutely nothing for the consumption of alcohol, which has fallen by 25% in the past 14 years, but will put up the cost of doing business in Ireland. In addition to the fact that we have the highest priced alcohol in the EU, it will lead to cross-Border trade. That is very much a Brexit issue. In the round, it comes back to the point that at a strategic level we are speaking to Europe about ways in which it needs to recognise our circumstances. Our credibility in doing that is not enhanced if we are putting up our own costs or refusing to address them.

Ms Patricia Callan

I will start with the specific question about lay-offs and short time. In our survey, the member companies said that 7% of companies indicated they were likely to put workers on short time and lay-off and 2% already had to make some staff redundant. That is mainly in the manufacturing industry where one is running product lines and essentially if there is no demand for one's product, one simply scales back. What we have found is that the food sector has been dramatically impacted because prepared consumer foods tend to be a low-margin business and that is where most of our indigenous exports to the UK are coming from. That is a big issue.

In terms of the knock-on effects in the broader sub-supply chain piece, I know from our own members how hard it has been to engage them on Brexit. The ones who are directly impacted are all over it. They have had to move and they have made decisions. We have published toolkits and advice notes and we circulated the Enterprise Ireland, EI, material as well, but I am worried that many businesses have not thought about this at all. As part of the education piece around the initiative, there is an onus on everybody to keep telling all of those businesses that they need to do it. One should bear in mind that 90% of businesses are micro businesses that employ fewer than ten people and they are not necessarily members of the bodies that are present, or any other organisation. In the rural economy in particular, we must get out the message that people need to start assessing. I strongly advocate that those who are affected should be eligible for the funding that is only currently available to EI clients to do their Brexit plan. That makes no sense to me.

In terms of lobbying, Brexit has produced a huge workstream for us. Yesterday, we met with the Federation of Small Businesses from the UK, which came over specifically to look at developing relations post-Brexit. We have been working with the UK Embassy, UK trade people and directly with the British Government, and also with the European Commission and our counterpart business organisations across Europe. Our initial reaction post the summer is that the further east one went in Europe, there was no engagement at all and people were not even talking about it. Getting the issue on the agenda is something other countries are working towards and ensuring an understanding of our issues has been our biggest focus. The big focus on the EU side has been on state aid because the Department is using that as a blocker and we have been trying to help it to come up with more innovative measures.

In terms of specific tariffs and customs, we have already started practical work so I have sent members into workshops both with the Revenue but also with the British equivalent. The member feedback has been very worrying. On the British side, there has been a sense that people coming over to start practical workstreams have no idea and because it is so long since people have had to think about customs and models and all of that, the expertise level is not there. I heard the chartered accountants say exactly that this morning. That was certainly the experience. We are getting down to the nitty-gritty. Yoghurt makers and water makers, among others, are describing how they produce product, how they ship it in trucks and how they get it across borders but if one thinks about the totality of Brexit, that is what one needs in every single product line in every single sector and for every single regulation. It is not simply just one room with one group of people. We need to have business people at all levels in all of these really practical things as we progress through. Our members have been very open and have participated in many Government workshops already around this. However, a bit of Brexit fatigue is now setting in because, for example, our members have gone to workshops about finance and supports last November and they say they spent their time going and they did all of that but nothing happened so we have to keep up the momentum in terms of deliverables to keep people engaged.

In terms of people suspending investment, that question was specifically around Brexit, so half the people did say that it was directly Brexit related. Notwithstanding the negativity this morning, our economic story is still remarkable, our growth figures are outstanding, our employment figures are very good and we should not be talking ourselves into a recession, but at the same time we need to plan for the future. Anyone exporting is directly thinking about this but it is the other people about whom I am a bit more worried.

Going forward, we are a member of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation group that has all the agencies and most of the business organisations. The group is chaired by the Minister, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor. We have had one meeting so far and we are viewing that as a very solid workstream. Most of us have been all around the country on panels, at political party meetings, at local enterprise office meetings and we have had a lot of discussion. That has been useful in terms of hearing what everyone is saying. Now we would like to get into detailed work programmes and implementation and we are available to do that.

Mr. Arnold Dillon

I will pick up on a number of the points that were raised. The first one was from Senator McDowell about solutions. IBEC is a large organisation. We have 7,500 members and IBEC is also the umbrella group for more than 40 sectoral associations. Intense work is being conducted on where solutions can be found in the context of what is a very uncertain and difficult political backdrop. There is increased scope for some of those solutions in specific areas, depending on the competencies. In terms of the common travel area, there is potential for greater imaginative solutions. Other areas may be somewhat more dependent on the future trade relationship and part of the work in that regard will include lobbying but also digging down to see if we can get more of a meeting of minds and bring the two parties to a closer position. There will be technical, technological and regulatory solutions to try to make those future relationships as seamless as possible.

They will create as much continuity as possible with the existing relationships and we will set out the details of those in due course. Our members are actively engaged across all different sectors and policy headings.

We were asked about lobbying in Europe. IBEC and our sectoral associations have been incredibly active in Ireland and in Europe. As the Government has been doing, we have been putting up in lights the unique Irish situation and our unique exposure. This needs to be done before we can get traction on some of the other proposals and the EU guidelines reflect an appreciation of that. Irish business has been ahead of the curve in this area and we have an office in Brussels for this purpose. We are actively engaged on an ongoing basis with the EU institutions and there has been open engagement with Michel Barnier's task force, as well as that of the Council. Solutions are now required and IBEC will be actively working on that basis. We will engage with the institutions and through our umbrella group, BusinessEurope, with a lot of other European business federations. We will not only do this in Brussels but will bring our ideas and the Irish perspective to the capitals of Europe and to key member states and influencers across the EU.

All-island institutions are a big priority for IBEC. We have been working with the CBI in Northern Ireland on a joint business council for some time and from long before the peace process came to fruition. It has been a forum where politics can be left at the door and progress can be made on issues of shared interest. An enormous amount of development has happened in this area since the peace process came to fruition and there is now a massive danger that some of the positive developments will take a step backwards with Brexit. The trade relationship could be affected by a customs border and regulatory issues. EU funding streams may be affected and solutions will be needed at EU and UK levels to ensure existing projects and vital future projects continue. The economic element is a core part of the normalisation of politics on this island.

We were asked about the relocation of Irish companies into the UK and state aid issues. I will touch on them briefly and Mr. Brady of the economics team will talk about state aids in particular. The first thing is to decide what is under our control and Irish cost competitiveness is top of that list. It is important not to take legislative decisions that increase the burden on employers, that our tax position is competitive vis-à-vis the UK and that we can be proud of our business tax offering. Even long before Brexit, the UK was making its business tax offering more attractive and Ireland needs to be cognisant of that as it will be accentuated post-Brexit. The investment agenda has been a priority for IBEC. We are already seeing significant bottlenecks in the economy and a massive investment programme needs to be put in place to ensure that even if wider external threats cause us problems, our own economic limitations will not trip us up.

On state aids, Mr. Brady will talk about what is possible and feasible in terms of supports for Irish business in the context of Brexit.

Mr. Gerard Brady

Without naming names, we have already heard from specific members about moving plants to the UK. They are not just thinking about it but are actively looking at it. Diversification is difficult for markets into which a company is not used to selling. They believe it might make sense for them to move and they are also being approached directly by part of the state apparatus in the UK, particularly the Welsh and UK Governments. Market access is the key issue and if there are going to be tariffs for the beef industry there will be moves because it will be impossible to export to the UK, which is our major export market.

We were asked about supports and this goes back to state aid. There is an incredibly tight state aid regime at the moment, namely, a rescue and restructuring aid regime in which a company has to have gone through insolvency before a government can seriously help it. On the question of specific supports, in 2009, as Ms Callan mentioned, the European Union suspended some of the provisions under Article 137 of the treaty in order that Enterprise Ireland and other State agencies could give better support to companies. Companies moving from the UK market and trying to diversify will need support because it can take three or four years to get from A to B. In between, there is a valley of death and this is the big issue for Irish companies. We need to support them through it, particularly in diversification and marketing supports. Some such supports are in place but they need to be ramped up significantly. E-commerce supports are needed for domestic companies, particularly retailers. In 2009, the last time cross-Border shopping was an issue, 20% of Irish people shopped online but that is up by 60% now. The reach of cross-Border shopping was only 40 km from the Border in 2009 but, with e-commerce, it now stretches the length and breadth of the country.

Product innovation is going to be massive in the areas of taste, marketing material and packaging. It all needs to be re-innovated because it is currently targeted at a UK consumer and specific industries, the cheese industry being one, will have severe problems on account of their products being tailored to and only being consumed by the UK. Food companies producing fresh products also will have trouble reaching markets because their produce will not survive longer distances.

Tax is a big issue but that has been mentioned. There will be job losses, no matter what happens and whether there is a soft or hard Brexit. There is already a European Globalisation Adjustment Fund to support workers in Ireland and elsewhere who have become redundant because of the negative effects of globalisation and we think it should be extended to workers affected by Brexit, with retraining and enterprise supports, etc.

I thank all five witnesses and their accomplices for engaging with us this afternoon. I ask them not to limit their contributions to today's meeting. This is a living, breathing process and we are meeting as a committee until 30 June, when we will finally put ink to paper, so we would appreciate ongoing conversations with all witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 1.38 p.m. and resumed at 2.48 p.m.
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