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Seanad Special Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union díospóireacht -
Thursday, 4 May 2017

Engagement with the Bar of Ireland

This session will be an engagement with the Bar of Ireland. I am pleased to welcome Mr. Paul McGarry, senior counsel, chairman of the Bar of Ireland, who also chairs its working group on Brexit, and Mr. Patrick Leonard, senior counsel. Earlier today, the special committee had an extensive debate with representatives of a range of sectors who offered interesting insights into the economic impact of and solutions to some of the problems presented by Brexit. Our engagement with the Bar of Ireland has focused thus far on the opportunities Brexit offers Ireland. We appreciate the documentation circulated to members in advance of the meeting. The doctoral thesis I received from the Bar of Ireland makes for heavy but very worthwhile reading and offers the types of ambitious solutions the special committee has been mandated to explore.

We are grateful to Mr. McGarry and Mr. Leonard for coming before us this morning.

Before we begin, I will read the standard note on privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I welcome Mr. McGarry and ask him to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Paul McGarry

In addition to Mr. Leonard, I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Patrick Mair, and by Ms Ciara Murphy who is director of the Bar Council. We are delighted that the committee is taking time to have us here today to outline some of our views on the issues that are for its consideration.

Our submissions are confined to certain issues that may arise in the field of civil justice as a result of Brexit. Although media commentary has focused on the implications for financial services and insurance companies over the loss of passporting rights, the rights of citizens of the EU to remain in the United Kingdom after Brexit and vice versa, customs and tariffs issues, the Bar of Ireland wishes to highlight the wide range of civil justice issues that are raised by Brexit, particularly in a hard Brexit scenario. As a country with deep personal and economic ties with the United Kingdom, the issues here have the potential to affect Ireland more than perhaps any other country in the European Union. The Bar of Ireland also wishes to highlight some opportunities for Ireland in the context of marketing legal services.

We have identified a number of areas of concern. In order to highlight these, I will explain briefly what they are. The first relates to civil jurisdiction, and the recognition and enforcement of foreign judgments. In order to ensure the smooth flow of commerce between the member states, it is essential that the judgments of one member state’s courts are recognised in the other member states. Similarly, it is important that companies and individuals know which courts will deal with disputes, and how court papers from one member state’s court system may be served in another member state. In the existing legal order, in civil and commercial matters, these issues are comprehensively dealt with by the recast Brussels regulation which deals with both the jurisdiction of courts and the recognition and enforcement on judgments across EU borders in civil and commercial matters. That regulation which is directly effective as the force of law in all member states provides that judgments of courts of one state are enforced throughout the other member states as if they were the judgments of the court of that member state. In general, if a person is domiciled in an EU state, he or she must be sued in that state. Where parties choose in their contract that any disputes should be resolved in one member state, the courts of the other member states must abide by that choice.

In addition, there is a range of EU rules on the service of judicial and extra-judicial documents. The benefit to such a system is, of course, self-evident. If an Irish company obtains a judgment in Ireland, it will be entitled to enforce that judgment against a defendant in any other member state. Similarly, the Irish company can be satisfied that it will only be sued in Ireland, unless the rules of the recast regulation permit it to be sued elsewhere. In the context of a hard Brexit, none of these rules will apply so that European companies will find it difficult to enforce European judgments in the courts of the United Kingdom. United Kingdom judgments may be unenforceable in certain member states, and their enforcement in Ireland will be rendered more difficult and more expensive. These issues also affect multinational businesses based in Ireland, or those considering whether to relocate to Ireland.

Much of the regulation of the financial services and insurance sector in Europe derives from European Union regulation. Part of that system allows what is known as passporting. I am sure the committee will have heard about this from various other parties which have been before it. Under that system, where a regulated entity is situated in one member state, it is, under certain conditions, entitled to provide services to businesses and consumers in other member states. Many of the financial services and insurance businesses established in the City of London use those rights to provide services across the European Union. Similarly, there are many financial services and insurance businesses across the European Union which use passporting to provide services to what is the very large United Kingdom market. In the context of a hard Brexit, it is likely that the right of companies to passport either out of or into the United Kingdom will be removed. This will give rise to significant disruption in the provision of financial services. Whereas there may be a migration of some businesses to Ireland and, therefore, benefits, some Irish companies may lose the right to provide services to the United Kingdom.

There is a Europe-wide insolvency regime which is given effect by the insolvency regulation. Under the rules established by this regulation, the courts of the member state where a company’s centre of main interests is situated have jurisdiction to open main insolvency proceedings in respect of that company. The clarity provided by the insolvency regulation is especially valuable where companies routinely trade across borders and have assets and operations across multiple jurisdictions. In the scenario of a hard Brexit, the courts of EU member states are unlikely to recognise the United Kingdom and vice versa in an insolvency situation.

These are just headline issues. There are a wide variety of other legal issues that affect citizens across the EU, particularly in Ireland. There are many other areas where citizens’ rights could be affected, such as family law, immigration and employment law, consumer law, competition, tax and so on. The effect of a hard Brexit will be seen in the application of legal provisions affecting ordinary people on a day-to-day basis.

What can be done about it? In the absence of agreement between the European Union and the United Kingdom in a range of areas relevant to civil justice, businesses and individuals will have to fall back on pre-existing international treaties, where they exist, or develop new ones, or on long-standing rules of public and private international law. That is a very complex concept and is likely to give rise to increased cost and uncertainty in the conduct of commerce and in the movement of people between the European Union and the United Kingdom.

Political considerations fall outside the remit of the Bar of Ireland but it is clearly in the interests of both the European Union and the United Kingdom to seek replacements for the Brussels recast regulation, the insolvency regulation, and the other rules which are currently in force across the European Union. The Bar of Ireland notes the stated objective of the United Kingdom to remove its legal system fully from the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union. This stated desire may prevent agreement being reached in respect of many of the areas of civil justice where it is clearly desirable that there be the fullest possible co-operation. It may be that some compromise can be reached whereby the United Kingdom would accept the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union on the type of procedural issues involved - for example, in the context of jurisdiction and enforcement and, perhaps, regarding the service of documents, now governed by Brussels' recast regulation as opposed to substantive private international and public international law.

These are the macro issues. We also want to highlight the significant opportunities to expand the market for legal services in Ireland. The provision of legal services increasingly has a prominent international dimension and regularly involves international issues. The growth in international trade and investment has increased demand for cross-border legal advice and representation. Over many years, the United Kingdom has consolidated efforts across a wide range of stakeholders to increase its share of the international legal services market and it has been hugely successful in so doing. At present the United Kingdom is believed to account for 10% of global legal services fee revenue and 20% of European legal services fee revenue.

One of the factors that underpins the United Kingdom’s position as the second largest market for legal services globally is parties to international commercial contracts choosing English law to govern their agreements. This is borne out by the volume of litigation and arbitration involving non-UK parties that occurs in the United Kingdom. For example, the data we have collated suggests that since 2010 around 80% of all London commercial court cases each year have involved at least one non-UK party. In almost 50% of all cases, all parties are not UK-based or linked.

Brexit creates an opportunity for Ireland to increase trade in legal services from Ireland to the international sector. First, Brexit creates considerable uncertainty among UK legal services providers concerning their ability post-Brexit to service their clients as before, given that they will no longer be part of the European legal order. Second, Brexit has significantly lessened the attractiveness of English choice of law clauses in commercial contracts. According to a survey conducted for the Bar Council of England and Wales, European clients are already considering moving away from English choice of law and jurisdiction clauses. In addition, according to the same survey, some international parties have already chosen not to issue proceedings in England because there is a fear that final orders will have to be made after Brexit and there is great uncertainty about the enforcement of those orders.

Following Brexit, Ireland will be the only English-speaking common law jurisdiction fully integrated into the European legal order. This should help to attract financial and other services industries into Ireland and provide an opportunity to increase the market for legal services in Ireland.

We think it will encourage international clients and companies to incorporate Irish law as the governing law of contracts in place of English law, to designate Ireland as the forum for the resolution of disputes about those contracts by way of litigation or arbitration and to use Irish lawyers to advise on European law. What is interesting about the statistics that we have come across is that London is the second-largest centre for the provision of advice about EU law outside Brussels, which is extraordinary when one thinks about it. The reality is that that will have to change after a hard Brexit. The availability of highly-skilled common law and English-speaking lawyers in Ireland is an important support for the international business that flows through Ireland. Considerable expertise has been built up by the large firms in this country in areas like funds and aircraft leasing, for example. Irish firms are able to rival the large international firms in these and other sectors.

There is further potential for Irish solicitors’ firms and barristers to provide legal services from Ireland to clients outside Ireland. Considerable work is required to take advantage of the opportunity to increase trade of legal services to the international sector. Over time, and this is only going to happen over time, it ought to be possible to significantly increase trade in legal services from Ireland in Dublin, with increased business opportunities and revenue arising from ancillary support services and increased tax revenues for the State, both by way of income tax and VAT. The potential rewards to the economy are very significant. One of the figures that emerges from looking at the raw data is that, in 2015, the net export value of legal services in the UK, by which we really mean London, was about €4 billion. Not all of that is necessarily affected by the Brexit scenario, but that is a figure that we think significantly understates the export value of the English legal services market. One does not have to be particularly ambitious to see how even taking a small chunk of that would involve a significant increase in revenues here and for the State.

It is important to say, as we have said, that in common with many other sectors, we are not talking about competition between Ireland and the UK. These are businesses, clients and firms that we know are actively considering moving because of Brexit, and therefore it is a question of them deciding whether they come to Dublin as opposed to Paris, Frankfurt or Amsterdam, not whether they stay in London or come to Dublin. Over time, it is possible to increase the trade. If Ireland becomes a place in which international litigation and arbitration is routinely carried out, it inevitably enhances the reputation of Ireland as a place to do business. The circle, in essence, goes around, particularly for the type of financial service providers that are now considering a move.

That is an outline of our position on it. As the Chairman has noted, we have supplied the raw data behind it. That is constantly being monitored and updated on our side, because all the reports are being prepared on a regular basis.

I have a plethora of questions but, for once, can I let my colleagues go first? I jumped the gun earlier. I call Senator Paul Daly.

I welcome the delegation and thank it for the information we have received and the presentation today.

Based on what the witnesses said, we are looking at opportunities and it is a breath of fresh air to hear an inkling of positivity in this. They highlighted potential opportunities based mainly on companies now based in London moving over here. How much extra business may be available for indigenous businesses and practices here and how prepared are we to harvest whatever potential may show itself there? While we have the witnesses here today, I have another question which I hope I word correctly - I am no legal eagle - about the legal rights of the citizens of Northern Ireland after a hard Brexit, which I am finding it hard to get my head around. They are all entitled to an Irish passport on the back of the Good Friday Agreement. In theory, they will all get Irish passports so in theory they are also members of the EU. When it comes to legal issues, does the company law or whatever that they are tied to follow the individual or the locality? What rights do they have under a new British justice system as citizens of the EU under the European Court of Justice, ECJ? It is something that I have been trying to work my head around. On the final day, when people say that Brexit has happened and to get on with it, is there the potential for a large number of cases, specifically in the North? I may not be explaining myself very well, but the rights of the people of Northern Ireland under the two different jurisdictions once this is over and done with have been preoccupying me.

I welcome the delegation. I am sorry that other people are detained in other committees and that there are not more here.

On the opportunities that will present themselves as we move closer to Brexit, has the Bar Council now got what may be termed a "marketing suite" in order to market its services to potential clients? I recently attended a conference where the preparedness of the financial services industry in the UK was discussed and how it is ready to relocate part of its business to European capitals and other cities, to Dublin, Frankfurt or wherever. We then finish up with two separate legal systems, which is probably going to create enormous work for barristers and solicitors on all sides. Is that a problem that the witnesses see coming down the line as well as an opportunity? I wonder if they have any statistics on how many companies have sought advice about locating in Ireland and moving their operations here to avail of opportunities that they currently have in the European Union.

Are the witnesses in discussion with the UK's Bar Council about sharing the spoils of whatever is going to come out of this? As far as I know, and I might be wrong, we do not operate a chambers system like in the UK. Is there any opportunity for a group of barristers to come together and form such an operation where they will be able to offer a one-stop shop of expertise for companies coming here? If one is dealing with a chambers organisation in the UK, there would be a variety of expertise in the chambers, whereas here one has to go and find sole traders who are experts in specific areas. How much of a problem do the witnesses see languages as being for members of the Bar Council?

Finally, speaking about civic rights and justice, we have a number of UK citizens living in Ireland. We have a number of Irish citizens living in the UK. It is well-established that there is going to be a problem if we land ourselves in a hard Brexit scenario. I said this morning and will say again that I do not see a hard or a soft Brexit, I see a totally disorganised Brexit where bits and pieces will come together. In this country, we have 100,000 people living in the North of Ireland who are UK citizens and are not entitled under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement to carry Irish citizenship, whereas their children are. These would mainly be expatriates who came into the medical profession, academia or the restaurant business in the North. There are 100,000 of them. I have raised their unique situation with everybody who has come in so far. It is a problem and I have no doubt that it is a problem that will ultimately finish at the desk of the witnesses or their colleagues somewhere along the line to try to establish those people's rights. Have any approaches been made in that area to members of the Bar of Ireland?

I apologise if the questions are too specific, but those are the matters of interest to me.

I thank Senator Craughwell. I note the presence of Senator Victor Boyhan, who is substituting on behalf of Senator Michael McDowell, who has given his apologies.

A number of questions I hoped to ask were asked by Senator Craughwell. I have one or two specific follow-up questions and they might tie in with some of the questions asked. Senator Craughwell mentioned a marketing suite for the Council of the Bar in Ireland. It goes beyond the Bar Council. It goes to the entire sector, to the financial services sector and to the Law Society. Who is selling Ireland in this area? Is this a responsibility for a State agency?

There might be a role for the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, or the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald, to sell this as a package, much like the bids we are putting in for the European Medicines Agency and the European Banking Authority.

Enterprise Ireland was here earlier and it is out there with IDA Ireland, day and night, selling Ireland as a place to invest and trade. The Ministers of State, Deputies Breen and Dara Murphy, are traversing the globe, rightly, and it is really promising. However, is that being done for the opportunities the witnesses have just mentioned and if not, why not? What is the solution? This is something we can say to the Government now. We do not even have to wait to write our report at the end of June. We can feed it in almost instantaneously. How can we get a part of that €4 billion export value? We have said in respect of a number of areas that if we can get 10% of the exiles from London, we will be doing great. It would make a great difference to our economy in a year to get 10% of €4 billion.

Tied into that is the need, as Senator Craughwell said, for language proficiency. In a former life, I spent a great deal of time working with people to train them up to apply for posts as lawyer linguists within the European institutions. It was a huge issue. Notwithstanding that these were very promising and lucrative careers, the numbers applying from Ireland were a proportion of the per capita numbers from other member states where it was seen as something viable. As Senator Craughwell asked, how do we encourage not only those with relevant language knowledge and experience, but more barristers and solicitors? How do we prove to a second year devil at the bar who is looking forward to ten years of a slightly tougher experience that this is worth investing his or her time in? Do we need to provide more supports for recently qualified solicitors and recently called barristers?

Before I move on from this topic, I ask if there has been any evidence of expansion by UK firms or chambers into the Irish legal system. We have all read articles and various media pieces involving rumours about large London-based firms or London-origin firms seeking to set up offices in Dublin or to merge with Irish firms. Is there any tangible evidence of this? Moving away from the firms, are we seeing more barristers from London, Birmingham or Belfast, even, wondering whether to transfer?

Certain parties have chosen not to issue proceedings in England. What happens there? Is it the case that they have decided to sit on this for a year or two? What else needs to happen in the meantime? What happens to those proceedings? It may be down to my ignorance of the legal system but do they just float in the ether? What happens while that delay goes on? We have asked a lot of questions. Perhaps Mr. McGarry might answer some, with his colleagues coming in on others.

Mr. Patrick Leonard

I will deal with some of those questions. The Chairman asked about proceedings. It is not that they would be delayed for two or three years. Very often in cross-border disputes, the parties have a number of choices as to where they would begin the litigation. That can depend on the contract and the parties who are going to be sued. The suggestion is that some parties would be concerned that an English judgment received at the end of litigation and entered after a hard Brexit would be less easy to enforce in other European countries. That might lead one to decide to issue those proceedings in another European country, including, potentially, Ireland, France or Germany. One would then know that one's judgment could be enforced in other countries.

To move from that legal strictly legal point to those raised by Senators Paul Daly and Craughwell, the opportunities which arise for the Irish legal sector present themselves in a number of areas. We were asked about the opportunities for indigenous firms and people here. In so far as large financial services or insurance firms move to Ireland, it is likely that they will use the services of existing firms in Ireland to provide some legal work. In so far as the Government is successful in persuading businesses to come to Dublin, that is likely to increase the amount of work for existing solicitors firms here. Obviously, if there are disputes in the long term, that is likely to produce extra litigation. Similarly, if we can persuade international companies to use Irish law more than they have to date and in areas like commercial contracts between Irish and foreign companies in funds, aircraft leasing and bonds, it is likely to give more demand for Irish lawyers. That is another area where, outside of people moving to the country, there can be an increase in business for Irish lawyers. There is obvious potential, as one reads in the newspapers, that some foreign firms may decide to come to Ireland. They may bring some employees from abroad, including English solicitors and New York attorneys, but, in truth, if some of the large firms from London or New York move to Dublin, it is likely to provide employment to the local market also. All of those are areas where the local market can be increased without reference to work coming in from abroad, which is obviously a different point.

We were also asked about a marketing suite and the engagement with other Government agencies. The Bar Council of Ireland has, for a number of months, had extensive engagement with a large number of solicitors firms. We have had extensive engagement with a number of Government Departments and IDA Ireland and we are in the process of putting together a formal strategy to market Irish lawyers and Irish law. That is in hand but not yet complete. It is something which can usefully be led at official level and we are hopeful the initiative will bear fruit over the next number of months. We are beginning to work hand in glove with IDA Ireland, which is very supportive of our proposal to market Irish law and Irish lawyers. Law is an ancillary service to the financial services sector but it will help to sell Ireland if IDA Ireland or any Department can go to London and New York and say that not only is the regulatory structure in Ireland good for setting up a financial services or insurance business, but we have the support structures in terms of good lawyers and accountants to support that business. In so far as the Government's pitch to the international community is that Ireland is an English-speaking common law system and in so far as that is an advantage, the legal community of barristers and solicitors should be part of the drive to market Ireland and show that it is a good place to conduct legal business, get legal advice and resolve business disputes.

Mr. Leonard said some firms may bring their own lawyers from the UK or New York. Since the 1960s, quite a number of firms have come to Ireland. What has the practice been in general? Have they used Irish firms and Irish barristers to deal with their legal questions?

Mr. Patrick Leonard

Since the 1960s, there has been a great increase in the number of multinational businesses coming to Ireland. The solicitors' sector has provided a very advanced service to those multinationals, particularly through the large and medium-sized firms in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway. I expect that it is the business provided by those large multinational firms which has allowed the legal sector in Ireland to develop in the way it has. One would have to ask members of those firms about it in more detail, but our understanding is that the large multinationals in Ireland use the large firms in Dublin and some of the regional centres as a matter of routine. It may be that there is some type of work that still goes to their London or New York departments, but they all certainly engage with the firms here.

An issue I did not deal with was whether people had already moved here. The perception of the Bar is that there has been an increase in the last five or ten years, in particular with English insurance firms moving to Dublin. There are some larger international firms, in particular in the funds sector, and some transnational firms which have moved to Dublin, but this, in truth, has been in small numbers.

I apologise for cutting across Mr. Leonard. My query concerned actual practising barristers and law firms. It might be too soon to tell, but has he seen an increase in, or is there evidence of, people practising at the Bar in the UK deciding that perhaps they should relocate to Dublin? Will it be a little more lucrative, for want of a better word?

Mr. Patrick Leonard

Some barristers have moved from the United Kingdom to Dublin over the past five or ten years, although I suspect that is probably a result of family and personal links rather than business links. We have not yet seen a large influx of UK barristers who might seek, under the current equivalence regimes, to practise in Dublin. Only time will tell whether that will happen.

Mr. Paul McGarry

It is probably too early to say how it will play out in that sense. If the committee calls in the Law Society, it may need to ask its representatives a similar question. Anecdotally, we understand there are English firms considering Ireland as a place to set up some form of office, whether big or small. That can only be in circumstances in which they perceive the need to follow the client. If their clients are saying to them that Dublin is where they are headed and if the clients are significant, the firms are likely to want to continue to provide the services. If it means they must be in Dublin, they will be in Dublin.

Senators Daly and Craughwell raised a few other issues. I am not certain I can answer the questions they asked, particularly the question about citizenship and Senator Craughwell's point about the situation of the 100,000 UK citizens who happen to live in Northern Ireland. That area is extremely complex. On the one level, there is the current position of people born on the island on foot of the Good Friday Agreement arrangements. It remains to be seen what the outcome of the Brexit negotiations will be. The fact those born on the island of Ireland are all entitled to be Irish citizens means that, as a matter of citizenship, they are entitled to benefit from certain rights and obligations qua Irish citizens. However, if they move into other areas such as corporate structures, if they are involved in companies and the companies are domiciled or based in Northern Ireland post Brexit and Northern Ireland is part of the UK, there will be similar problems for them. Similarly, one can see how there would be issues in areas such as family law if they are subject to domiciliary standing regimes in the EU. However, I think it is the same for Irish citizens wherever they are in the UK, not just in Northern Ireland, in that sense. I do not know the answer to the question Senator Craughwell raised about the 100,000 UK citizens in Northern Ireland.

The problem to which I alluded is that many of those 100,000 are married to people who are entitled to Irish passports, their children are entitled to Irish passports and, in the event of a dispute involving family law or company law, there are European citizens, who have certain rights and entitlements, who will not be able to exercise them. Conversely, there are British citizens or UK citizens who will not be able to exercise their rights. I see Mr. McGarry's point. It will be a nightmare.

Mr. Paul McGarry

It is a significant problem. Even the identification of that one issue, which on one level might not seem to be very significant in the overall scheme of things, shows how complex the situation will be. If one area like that can be identified, another can be. I refer to the tax treatment of people resident in one state but domiciled in another, for example, the UK and France or the UK and Ireland. One can imagine how complex things will get when one gets down to the nitty-gritty of the negotiations. I think we are all hopeful we do not end up with a hard Brexit. I do not think that would be any good for anyone, but I think the preparation we must make is one that assumes a hard Brexit. Anything better than that would be a bonus or a benefit. This is not really a political matter. Rather, it is a legal matter. The noises we are hearing are not encouraging.

From the lawyer's point of view, we are considering Brexit from a few different perspectives. We consider the macro constitutional issues affecting Northern Ireland, citizenship, the Border and the application of the Human Rights Act and the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland. These are high principles of constitutional law and consideration. Then there are the practical considerations we outlined earlier regarding enforcement of judgments and difficulties for companies and people trading in and out of the UK and the legal systems and legal advice they will have to get. Then there is a third issue which we have been considering more specifically lately. I refer to the notion that one can market Ireland and use, as Mr. Leonard said, the fact we have all these advantages - a legal system not too dissimilar to the UK's, an English-speaking population, a common law system and the certainty this provides, particularly for Americans who are used to thinking about these things - and that this can then be incorporated by agencies such as the IDA into the sales pitch for all the other clients. As a result, we may end up with more lawyers coming here - we will certainly end up with more business here - and it will not be in anything like the short or medium term for barristers. It will be for people involved in law firms but, ultimately, if businesses and law firms can get their clients to incorporate things such as Irish law into their contracts and transactional arrangements, there will be a benefit down the line for us.

I do not see major problems with the capacity of the system as regards the legal advice at present. Again, that is more a matter for the solicitors' firms but, in our experience, the Irish firms have a very strong track record of providing advice in areas of technical EU law and some of the specific areas that have been mentioned: aircraft leasing, funds, derivatives, and technical and financial services. Similarly, regarding EU laws generally, they have very highly qualified people and there are plenty of very well-trained people coming through the system, so I do not really see there being a problem on a capacity level in providing that. I do not see it as being very different in real terms from the current position in London.

If no one else is offering to contribute, I sincerely thank all four witnesses for coming forward. They have given us very significant food for thought and I commend them. They have given us real, tangible opportunities and solutions that we can feed into our end piece of work. As I mentioned to our previous panel, this is an evolving process and an evolving document. Things will change in the coming weeks for the witnesses as well as for us, so I ask them to feed anything into the committee as it comes up. We would very much appreciate keeping the engagement open. I thank them once again and look forward to talking to them again soon.

Sitting suspended at 3.27 p.m. and resumed in private session at 3.30 p.m.
The select committee adjourned at 3.40 p.m until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 11 May 2017.
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