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Select Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 2016

Vote 30 - Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Revised)

The select committee is now in public session. I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Michael Creed. I wish him well in his new appointment and look forward to working in a constructive way with him and his officials in the coming period.

I remind members to turn off their mobile telephones as they affect the technology. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We are meeting to consider the Revised Estimates for the year ending 31 December 2016, Vote 30 - Agriculture Food and the Marine, referred by Dáil Éireann on 16 June. As agreed to in private session, the meeting will follow the following structure. A fixed time will be allocated to consider each programme, A to E, inclusive, with the option of returning to a particular programme after each has been gone through if issues remain outstanding. This will allow members with an interest in particular programmes to schedule their time and ensure the committee gives consideration to all programmes. The timetable for the meeting has been circulated to each member. I understand the Minister will make a brief statement. I ask him to be as brief as possible and we will then get to the main points of the meeting.

Before we begin, we express some disappointment at only receiving the facts and figures within the last 24 hours, despite our having requested the information ten days ago. I mention this for future reference.

I thank the Chairman. With regard to his last remark, we only became aware of the date for the Estimates meeting last Thursday. We would have been anxious to facilitate the committee at the earliest possible date and we did, in fact, make offers of a departmental briefing to all the relevant spokespersons. While I appreciate the time is a little truncated, there was no intention on my part or that of my staff to in any way hinder the effective work of the committee.

I very much look forward to working with the committee. It is a novel experience for me to be sitting on this side of an Estimates process and I very much welcome the opportunity to be here this morning. I look forward to working with the Chairman, his committee colleagues and the staff of the committee, of whose dedication and commitment to the sector I have known for many years.

I will commence by introducing my officials: Anne Derwin, assistant secretary; Paul Dillon, assistant secretary; Cecil Beamish, assistant secretary; Heber McMahon, principal officer; Kay Ryan, principal officer; and Martin Crowley, assistant principal. I hope we can have an effective meeting and discussion of the Estimates.

I am very pleased to accept the invitation to meet the committee. This is a valuable opportunity to review how we are progressing with the current challenges and opportunities presented across the various agriculture, food development, marine and forestry sectors and to talk about market prospects across these areas, as well as new investment opportunities for the coming year. As the programme for a partnership Government identifies, agriculture is the heartbeat of the rural economy. The agri-food commitments in the programme for Government align closely with both Food Wise 2025 and the agri-food actions in the 2016 Action Plan for Jobs. I look forward to working closely with Cabinet colleagues who have responsibility pertaining to rural Ireland and with members of this committee. I will particularly emphasise the importance of improving profitability at farm level through a focus on competitiveness, innovation and knowledge transfer; continuing the growth of the food industry through market development, consumer insights and innovation; and enhancing our existing strong reputation for food safety and environmentally sustainable food systems.

My Department has 65 detailed commitments in the programme for a partnership Government. I have identified the following priorities for action: first, to respond to price volatility, including through initiatives and access to finance and taxation; and, second, to lead the implementation of the Food Wise 2025 strategy. In regard to market development, we must maintain existing markets and develop new markets. In regard to the Common Agricultural Policy and other related EU actions, I will progress discussions with the European Commission on the detailed commitments on the CAP, Pillar 1, and on the rural development programme.

Environmental sustainability is a key issue in Irish agriculture. We must ensure effective input into negotiations on new EU climate and energy policy to 2030 and to Ireland's first national mitigation plan. On seafood and the marine, my priority will be to implement the Harnessing our Ocean Wealth strategy and the seafood development programme.

The agri-food sector is an important engine for growth in rural areas, providing valuable jobs to rural communities and contributing to the wider economy. The sector continues to play a considerable role in our economic recovery and to prove its fundamental importance as a cornerstone of the economy and life of rural Ireland. The sector remains Ireland's largest indigenous industry and provides valuable employment, particularly in rural and coastal areas, where few other job opportunities exist.

I am pleased to say the budget allocation for 2016 reflects a significant Exchequer recognition of the importance of the sector and demonstrates a further commitment to support for agriculture, food and the marine. The Exchequer contribution to the Vote of my Department amounts to €1.363 billion in 2016 - €1.134 billion on current expenditure and €229 million on capital expenditure, including a carryover of €12 million in capital funding. This represents an overall increase of €109 million over the original 2015 Estimate and of €38 million when last year's supplementary budgets are taken into account, and it takes account of new priorities, including the expanding new rural development programme and the seafood development programme. In addition to the Department Vote, in 2016 Ireland will receive some €1.2 billion in direct funding from the EU for the basic payment scheme. This brings the combined investment in Irish agriculture, food and the marine to over €2.5 billion in 2016.

I will move on to programme group A. This programme focuses on progressing the economic development of the agri-food, forestry and marine sectors, including facilitating the achievement of Food Wise 2025. The-----

Excuse me. I do not have a copy of the Minister's script.

I understand this is just a brief introduction to each subhead. I do not expect a speech that will go on for many minutes.

There is about a page and a half on programme group A. Should I proceed?

We will go straight to programme group A, unless members think otherwise.

Do you want me to read the introduction?

As several members think it necessary, I ask the Minister to briefly introduce programme group A. We will then take questions on that programme.

This programme focuses on progressing the economic development of the agri-food, forestry and marine sectors, including facilitating the achievement of Food Wise 2025. The advancement of the elements of this programme requires effective participation in policy negotiations and developments at national, EU and international levels, and the development, implementation and review of the appropriate national strategic policy documents and policy positions. State bodies are also provided with funding for their development, promotion, research, advice and training activities.

All of this is designed to ensure the Department has the capacity to engage in effective economic policy analysis and planning to underpin competitiveness, efficiency and development of the agri-food and fishing sector and the rural and coastal economy. Overall, €450.8 million has been allocated to the subheads under this programme in 2016 in pursuit of the priorities outlined in budget 2016. For the seafood development programme, some €36 million is being made available to my Department, the Marine Institute and Bord Iascaigh Mhara to fund the roll-out of schemes under the seafood development programme.

Bord Iascaigh Mhara is the main implementing body responsible for delivering supports to the fisheries, aquaculture and processing sectors and will be responsible this year for a seafood development programme budget of €23.7 million. To date, it has launched eight schemes. In the area of aquaculture two schemes are open - the knowledge gateway scheme and the sustainable aquaculture scheme. In the area of seafood processing, three new schemes are open - the capital investment programme, the innovation and planning and scaling scheme and the new market development scheme. In the fisheries area three new schemes are open - the inshore fisheries conservation scheme, the fisheries local area development scheme and the sustainable fisheries scheme.

Last month I announced the award of €4.3 million to 51 beneficiaries under five of the schemes which will ultimately lead to an investment of €21 million in the seafood sector this year and further grants will follow throughout the year. Later this year, BIM will also launch a fleet decommissioning scheme and an engine replacement scheme which is an energy efficiency measure.

A key area of expenditure under the rural development programme is the beef data and genomics programme scheme which will have funding of €300 million over its lifespan, €52 million of which will be available in 2016. This innovative scheme will have a strong cohort of more than 25,000 participants and since payments began last December, more than 21,500 farmers have been paid a total of more than €39 million. These payments are continuing on an ongoing basis as compliance with the 2015 programme is verified.

In regard to the horse and greyhound fund, the State supports both industries as provided through the horse and greyhound racing fund. The 2016 budget for my Department provided for increased funding of €6 million, or almost 9%, to €74 million in the allocation for the fund - €4.8 million for Horse Racing Ireland and €1.2 million for Bord na gCon.

I thank the Minister. Let us start with programme A. I call Deputy McConalogue.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him well. This is our first committee meeting. I welcome also the Department officials. I congratulate also Deputy Pat Deering on his appointment as committee chairperson.

The question I wish to put is on the beef data and genomics scheme. According to the Minister's projects what is the likely spend for the year? I am aware that €52 million has been allocated to the scheme. It has 25,000 participants and that the number predicted for the year is 27,000. Is it the Minister's intention to reopen the scheme to new entrants? Does he expect that €52 million to be spent this year and, if not, how much of it does he expect will be spent? Looking at the 2015 figures, initially €52 million was allocated towards the beef data and genomics scheme but only €35 million was spent. In the Supplementary Estimates, €17 million was removed from the allocation because of an underspend. Given that €17 million was underspent last year, are we facing a similar underspend this year? What happened to that underspend last year? Will it stay within the overall spend between now and 2020 and will it be available to be reallocated to other schemes?

I thank the Deputy. I will take the three questions together. I call Deputy Martin Kenny to be followed by Deputy Willie Penrose.

I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on his appointment. I congratulate also the Chairman on his appointment. I wish to raise a couple of small points. In his introduction, the Minister mentioned that in rural Ireland very few other jobs exist outside of agriculture which is one of the factors we are faced with all the time. I am conscious that the beef genomics scheme payments make up a huge part of the farmer's income, particularly in the part of the country that includes my constituency, which has poor and marginal land, with very small holdings. Farmers depend very much on all of these schemes. Issues that arise all the time are the huge delays experienced by farmers in respect of these schemes and also the ability of farmers to access the national reserve scheme. While many farmers at the outset were concerned about the beef genomics scheme, in particular, and had worries about its complicated nature, at the same time there are still many farmers who want to enter the scheme now and find it has been closed. They want to make sure that happens. If the beef genomics scheme is to reopen, when will it open and for what number of new entrants?

I am interested in the seafood area. It was mentioned that work has been done in respect of aquaculture.

How many new licences have been issued for aquaculture? I am aware there were issues around the bays in respect of getting environmental studies done. How many of those studies have been completed and where have they been?

I thank the Deputy. I call Deputy Willie Penrose.

I have great respect for the Chairman. I have another engagement at 10.15 a.m. but I will raise a number of issues to which the Minister can reply whenever he gets the opportunity. I welcome the Minister to the committee. It is great to see him here. He has made a good start in the Dáil and is forthcoming in responding to queries.

I am delighted to hear about the beef genomics programme. I was probably the only member of the committee the last time who supported it. While there was not 90% support for it, there was 120% support from me. Some of the campaigns that were launched were less than becoming. Some people were just creating political storms to gain credence about particular positions that were adopted. Coming from the midlands I could see the value of it, 100%. I know there were teething problems with various bits and pieces of it. I want the scheme to be open to as many people as possible. There was a doomsday scenario, nobody was going to enter it. Everybody was talking about this but I held firm. I know farmers on the ground as I probably deal with beef farmers more frequently than many.

I have a number of queries across the programme. Perhaps the Minister would take notes. I beg the indulgence of my colleagues, I am not coming back to ask any more questions. On programme C, has any progress been made in relation to farmers who had their lands designated special conservation areas, SPAs, for the hen harrier population? I am aware €70 million was allocated to local-led agricultural environment schemes. When will a specific scheme be devised to accommodate the 3,700 farmers who were denied compensation promised to them in 2008? This is not a midlands issue but concerns the Minister's county and possibly the Chairman's county because it affects the sterilisation of lands. Given that what was done was illegal, there will be a court case at some stage. I know a number of people joined GLAS in order to alleviate their difficulties. We have met these farmers here at the committee. Surely a specific scheme over a long period, say, 15 years or so, should be devised. It would allow them to go into the bank and borrow money on the strength of a 15 year scheme. They could show they have money coming in every year and could repay. It is time the issue was dealt with.

The Minister is dealing also with Teagasc. The cohort of young farmers need a FETAC level 5 equivalent, similar to the old green certificate, in order to obtain the funding devised under the CAP schemes. We have singularly failed to provide the necessary places. There are some 3,500 applicants waiting to get in. Education is very important. There are a number of Teagasc offices across the country but what are we going to do to progress this issue?

Beef is a big issue. I will be parochial about beef farming. We cannot go into denial. The animal identification and movement, AIM, database signals that there will be 80,000 or 90,000 additional cattle coming on stream in the autumn. That will lead to pressure on prices. That is the ultimate demand-supply situation. Will the factories do their usual thing? One can bet one's bottom dollar they will seize the opportunity. What plans are in place to deal with the likely overspill in the market and what is being done to open up other potential markets, such as Egypt, Turkey, Iran or wherever? Are there any developments in the Russian market? What efforts are being made to reinvigorate the live export opportunities that would offer some opposition to the likely factory cartel that will rear its head at the first opportunistic moment for them?

Under programme A - electronic identification for sheep - I understand the Minister is quoted as saying that a new tagging scheme has to be part of the €25,000 sheep grant scheme. That would help the export trade in so far it promotes traceability. Maybe I misread the Minister or maybe he was misquoted. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility for anybody to be misquoted. That last time a similar type scheme was introduced it was for a 200 head maximum flock. If electronic identification was introduced there should be no limit to its application across the sheep flock because they paid €1.20 per head. A genuine sheep farmer with a flock of 100 ewes or sheep would have to tag all his or her sheep.

A sheep farmer with a flock of 400 sheep would have to tag all of his or her sheep. I think the scheme has to be targeted widely. That is very important, otherwise, it will be increasing costs for producers.

There is concern about the prevalence of Johne's disease in dairy herds. Has the Department plans to introduce targeted, additional bio-security or programme measures to combat or reduce the incidence of this disease? Those wishing to expand their herds may have to resort to buying in animals. Are we launching a battle to combat this disease similar to what was done in Sweden where they have achieved Johne's disease-free status for their herds?

Chairman, I am nearly finished. Let me raise issues in regard to the TAMS II scheme in programme C. There are only 5,300 applicants to date. I think a snail would move faster than the pace in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. With due respect to everybody who works in the Department, many of whom are colleagues who trained with me, when will the first payments be made? I am delighted, and fair play to the Minister, that the categories of eligibility for the scheme were expanded, with the inclusion of sheep fencing as an investment item. Can we put a bit of speed under the process? It is no use introducing a scheme, which holds out tantalising supports for farmers, and expecting them to hold on.

As I have said at committee meetings and in the Dáil, the major issue for farmers is price volatility in the agriculture market. It will be well into 2017 before there is any possible correction in the milk market. The legacy issues are Russia and China, weather dependency, income growth. A host of factors are at play, but the question is what can we do to try to help farmers in the interim? My view is that we must try to focus on access to low cost credit for farmers. The banks are playing puck, they are paying negative interest rates for money and are going to town on lending rates. They can charge what they like. The banks can borrow at 0.5%; even allowing them a 2.5% handling charge, they should be able to lend at 3%. The Minister should be able to devise a scheme to allow farmers to borrow at attractive interest rates. The SMEs and small shopkeepers should also be able to avail of credit at low interest rates, instead of paying 8% on overdraft facilities. The same should apply to credit from the merchant co-operatives. There is nothing cheap about what they offer. They are there with their hankies, saying how well they are doing for farmers, but they are still charging interest rates that are up there with the best of them. Our farmers are paying three times more than their European colleagues.

Fertiliser costs are an issue that has been discussed by the IFA. They have made some progress at European level. Is the Minister co-operating with that campaign to get a reduction in tariffs and customs on fertiliser imports into the EU? That could bring a further €50 million to €60 million into the pockets of farmers.

The Chairman has been taking a lead role on the issue of an independent retail ombudsman with attendant powers and duties, similar to what operates in the United Kingdom. There is no use behaving nicely nicely with those boys, they just throw it back into your face, you need statutory powers to deal with them. Allowing below-cost selling is a racket. Of course there will be below-cost selling. It is the old story, the big shops will locate on the outskirts of the town and there will be nothing in the middle as the local shops have closed. What has wiped out the shops will wipe out farmers eventually. We should look at the possibility of introducing a ban on below-cost selling, so that people can produce at a reasonable price and consumers will know they are getting a quality product.

I thank my colleagues and the Chairman for facilitating me this morning. I know the Minister will respond to my questions to the best of his ability. If he does not have the answers, he can write to the committee.

I thank Deputy Penrose. Will the Minister respond to questions on programme A and answer the other questions from Deputy Penrose which covered many areas when we come to the relevant programmes? We will come to questions from Deputies Cahill and Pringle in the next session.

There are some common themes running through the questions. I will deal with the beef data and genomics programme. I concur 100% with Deputy Penrose's comments in this regard. With regard to the point made by Deputy McConalogue on funding, the important point to remember is there is a €300 million commitment across the lifetime of the rural development programme.

In the context of it being a co-funded scheme, we will not leave a brown cent after us in the drawdown of that fund. We will use all of that fund for the purpose of that heading. As a result of the delayed establishment, the number of applications originally received as against the number of people who dropped out, there were various fluctuations in the estimated drawdown in 2015. This scheme has the potential to revolutionise the beef sector in the same way the economic breeding index, EBI, has done for the dairy sector, with which many Members would be familiar. I was asked whether it will be reopened. That will remain under active consideration. There is a commitment in the rural development programme of €300 million across the lifetime of that programme. We will use all of that fund in respect of the beef data and genomics programme. Speaking from memory, originally we had approximately 29,000 applications, we now have approximately 25,000 and have commenced payments under it. We will maximise the drawdown. If the figures allow for the reopening of the scheme, my Department and I will look at it.

In regard to the points raised by Deputy Martin Kenny, I acknowledge that agriculture is the engine that will drive the economic recovery of rural Ireland furthest. In fact a number of years ago when we faced a very difficult crisis, the then Government identified the key engines that would drive economic recovery, which in rural Ireland were agriculture, fishing and tourism. In many respects because of the collaboration between the public and the private sectors, we have made significant progress in this regard. It is appreciated in a community, like the one Deputy Martin Kenny represents, that we need to be vigilant.

On the issue of delays in payments, I was in opposition, questioning Ministers and officials on delayed payments. It is very frustrating to be awaiting a basic payment or grant from the Department when merchants or agriculture contractors are waiting to be paid. It becomes acutely embarrassing for farmers. I have a number of observations in this regard. Last year was particularly difficult because we had a transition to a new Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, payment system with which we had a number of teething problems. It is acknowledged also that there is a resource issue and Members will see in the Estimates that there is provision for additional human resources in the Department. While the staff will be spread across a series of areas in the Department, I have had negotiations with senior management on addressing prompt payment and the particular issues raised by the Deputy. We have negotiated a charter of rights with farmers, which obliges the Department to facilitate meeting ambitious targets in respect of prompt payments.

I make the case that many of the difficulties that arise with regard to delays in the basic payments arise in particular from paper applications as opposed to online applications. As Members will be aware, the online applications are facilitated with preliminary checks, whereas the paper applications, because of the obligation to put the applications on the IT system in the Department, do not get the benefit of those preliminary checks. Many applications come in signed stating no change, but when the processing of those applications takes place later, problems are identified which results in a tennis match over and back between the Department and the applicant. This delays the applications. The ambition is to get to a situation within the next two years where we have 100% online applications in order that every applicant will benefit from the preliminary checks. It is an ambitious target to get to 100% and I would be interested in hearing the views of committee members. It does offer a very significant benefit to people who make the online application because they get the benefit of a no-penalty preliminary check on their application. It will be difficult to reach that last cohort of people who still make applications on paper.

They are probably, by and large, people who are not IT savvy or who may have difficulties with access to broadband. There are a combination of issues at play, including age. That poses a challenge for us in terms of getting them engaged with the online system and convincing them of its benefits in ensuring prompt payment.

I wish to deal now with the hen harrier issue. We will be submitting an amendment to the European Commission by the end of this month. Part of it relates to the new sheep programme but it will also contain a proposal in respect of the hen harrier. That is the preliminary work that must be done in this area. Then we will need to develop the scheme and my ambition is to begin payments in 2017. Those payments in conjunction with GLAS payments will bring us a long way towards the situation which prevailed prior to the suspension of the previous scheme of which many people were beneficiaries. Many of these people are in my own constituency and I am very familiar with the issue. I also know that other Members present are familiar with it. It has been a very difficult period for those affected. They were unfortunate in the manner in which the process developed when the previous scheme closed. That scheme was very generous, involving payments of up to €14,000. However, a combination of GLAS payments and payments under the new scheme will allow us to get close to the situation which prevailed under the previous scheme and that should make a real difference.

Our amendment to the rural development programme must be submitted to the European Commission by the end of this month. As I said already, part of that relates to the sheep programme and we are currently in consultation with the various stakeholders on the issue. I have never said that electronic tagging would be a precondition of the scheme, but it would be remiss of me not to reflect, in the context of the consultations I have been having with the various stakeholders, the view which has been expressed strongly by the industry in the context of accessing new markets that electronic tagging is used in other jurisdictions with which we compete. The point has been clearly made to me by those selling product and those in the markets into which we are attempting to gain entry that the lack of electronic tagging puts us at a competitive disadvantage. Specifically, that point was made in the recent discussions I had with the US Ambassador and several of his colleagues on market access. It is a point that comes up regularly and we would be burying our heads in the sand by refusing to acknowledge it. There is significant potential in the sheep sector in terms of new markets and an expansion of the industry. However, we must be able to compete with other producers, and traceability is a key issue in this regard. Our product is as close as one can get to the origin green dream, if I can put it that way. It is as close to a natural product as one can get but traceability is the final element which would give us a competitive advantage in respect of other markets.

On the issue of Johne's disease, Animal Health Ireland, AHI, is running a pilot project involving private veterinary practitioners. This is a significant issue. Johne's disease is a wasting disease with which Members will be familiar. All the stakeholders under AHI have identified it as a priority area and a pilot project is under way at present. It remains to be seen how the lessons of that pilot project can be mainstreamed, but AHI, which is funded by my Department, has been active in this area. We have paid €500,000 to date to AHI for work on Johne's disease. The problem is recognised. As Members will be aware, AHI is active in a number of areas, including Johne's disease, infectious bovine rhinotracheitis, IBR, bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD, and so forth. These are issues of animal health that must be identified and tackled.

The Deputy also referred to Teagasc. My Department sanctioned up to 77 additional staff in respect of Teagasc's education programme and the green certificate in particular. Under the discretion allowed to Teagasc, it now has greater freedom to recruit to its advisory service. We are making progress albeit it is an area we need to keep under review. We have also given Teagasc some latitude in respect of how it allocates its own resources within the overall cap in terms of additional staff. There is an ongoing review of the green certificate content. International experts are involved in that review along with Teagasc's own advisory and education staff to determine whether the qualification, which is now of long-standing and of which I was a beneficiary many years ago, is up to the mark in respect of the challenges those now entering a career in agriculture face. That kind of review is welcome and Teagasc has embarked on it.

There is no silver bullet to resolve the question of volatility. I do not want to imply that the only area in which there are difficulties due to volatility is the dairy sector, but by coincidence I chaired yesterday my first meeting with the dairy forum. We had a very useful discussion along all of the lines raised in terms of cost of credit and access to it. I have met with the pillar banks on this issue also. While we cannot buck the market in respect of ensuring an additional price is paid to farmers per litre of milk, we can do a great deal in other areas. I have been active in this area of superlevy difficulties but I regret to say my efforts have so far been unsuccessful. I have been in contact with the Commission whose argument is that it does not have the legal framework to give relief to that particular cohort of farmers. There are 3,700 farmers who have difficulty in that area. Although it is not a matter for Commissioner Hogan, we have raised at Council meetings the issue of the tariff on fertiliser, which we estimate could deliver a dividend in the region of €14 per tonne. That would be a significant cost reduction to the farming community. I have discussed the matter with Commissioner Moscovici, who is French, and, one-on-one, with the French agriculture Minister. I have been active in the area but I do not know if it will deliver.

Market access is another critical issue. The Deputy mentioned markets like Iran. I have met the Iranian ambassador in the last month. Historically, we had very significant market access there. We are now in a post-sanction era and the opportunities are there again. There are still some difficulties in the area of banking which make things more difficult. I had recent meetings with Ár-Nua which is now active in that space. Certainly, it is a market we have identified given that there are 80 million people in Iran, but it is also a corridor of access to up to 200 million people in the wider region. We see it as significant but we need to make more progress in that area.

On the issue of access to affordable finance, I salute initiatives by the likes of Glanbia in the MilkFlex area. We have greater room to manoeuvre now in respect of state aids on financial instruments and my Department is actively exploring the options in that space. We are going to appoint consultants to determine if there is market failure here. The Deputy rightly makes reference to the variation in interest rates across the European Union. The quarter 1 report from the Central Bank said the variation was from 2.2% in Austria to 5.8% in Ireland. That is the difference between top and bottom. We are appointing consultants to see if we can establish an ex ante market failure. My instinct is that if there is one, it is in the area of interest rates. That is where it is most identifiable. On that basis, we will explore the options we can bring to the table on access to more affordable finance.

The issue is not one of access to finance, it is one of access to affordable finance.

One other point I make on foot of consultations I have had with the banks is that all of them are saying, “Please come in and talk to us if you have a difficulty”. That is a good idea. There is a cultural issue whereby most farmers tend to want to have minimal contact with their bank managers even when they are in difficulty. They can head off some difficulties if they engage at an early stage. Yesterday, we launched at the dairy forum a new tool in terms of cash flow management and budgeting which is going out to every dairy farmer through the co-operative movement. It will also be promoted by Teagasc through its farm walks. We hope it will be a tool dairy farmers can make some progress with in terms of managing their finances and cash flow. A combination of tax liabilities on foot of incomes earned when milk prices were much higher than they are now, the super levy and merchant credit is going to lead to a particularly difficult period at the back end of the year.

I appreciate that I have digressed but I want to make one closing remark. If I have left anything out, I am sure people will tell me.

There are three more questioners.

Reference was made to the glut of cattle coming out. We need to be careful not to talk down the price of cattle. I acknowledge the figures referred to on the increased numbers of cattle at the back end of the year. We have opened the Turkish market to live export in recent days. A number of other markets are also open. The challenge now is for the industry to step in. I appreciate that there must be a margin for industrial actors and my Department will work with the industry to facilitate the export of the maximum possible number of cattle because we need that safety valve to ensure the maximum return for beef producers.

A lot of issues have been raised.

Deputies Cahill, Pringle and D'Arcy will be next.

I note before Deputy Cahill comes in that I am on the finance committee and have to go there in two minutes.

That point was made earlier. There is a problem with meetings clashing.

Is it possible for me to come in next, please?

We will take the three questioners together.

I have to disagree with the Minister's assertion on finance. It is not an affordability issue with finance, it is an access difficulty. It is very important that the Minister accepts that affordability is not the issue here. A good example is that of a farmer with whom I spoke last week. He went to the bank for a loan to get him through the cash flow difficulties he currently faces. The bank said there was no problem with that, but that in giving him a loan for the amount he was looking for, it would also bring his overdraft to zero. He did not look for that, but that was what was offered. When he did not accept it, there was no access available. It is important that the Minister and his Department understand that it is not an affordability issue, but an accessibility one.

The MilkFlex scheme is one we should all promote. It is a very good scheme. I saw a figure recently that 45% of lending within industry across all sectors in the USA was non-bank lending. This is the first occasion on which we are going down that route here. I am very hopeful it will be a success, but we need to look at expanding it beyond dairy to other sectors of agriculture. If the Minister and his Department could push the idea and cajole people to provide access to finance in other sectors, it would be very helpful.

When are payments likely to happen under the TAMS II structure? People have had work done for months. The Minister said he felt sorry for those who are caught. People had the work done and the invoices are sitting on farmers' desks, but the grants have not been paid out.

I have two more issues to raise. The biggest difficulty associated with the late payment of a single farm payment, the BPS payment, was related to the partnerships. I believe they were left until the end in putting the payment structure in place. What is the current position? I ask that this not be allowed to happen again this year.

The figure for wages and salaries across all headings is 3%. May I have a breakdown of the figure of 3%?

I have a couple of other questions to ask.

We are dealing with programme A only.

The figure is consistent throughout all of the programmes. It is relevant to all other programmes.

What is the point?

The figure for wages and salaries is 3% across all programmes. What does the figure of 3% represent?

This is my first time to attend a committee meeting in the Houses of the Oireachtas and I am delighted to have the opportunity to be here. I wish the Chairman and Minister well in their new appointments.

Before I refer to programme A, I wish to make a point about the Minister's opening statement in which he referred to the importance of improving profitability at farm level. Unfortunately, the current reality is that there is no profit level to improve. Most farms are making a loss. We talk about volatility, but we have seen no volatility in most sectors for a while now. All of the pressure is and has been downwards. My understanding of volatility is that it is a trend that goes up and down. Unfortunately, all we see is farm incomes moving downwards.

Have the powers that be realised the extent of the crisis in the dairy sector? There has been considerable investment in the past two to three years. There is no point in my throwing stones at people, but I must state no one saw the dangers of increased production in northern Europe and the damage it would do to prices. As a country, we need to start taking a serious look at ourselves. We have been brainwashed into thinking we are the most cost-competitive producers in Europe, if not the world, but the reality, as I see it, in grain prices is such that we must stand back and ascertain how competitive we are by comparison with the rest of Europe. The grain sector and the prices that will be received are another issue, but I do not know how grain farmers are managing to exist, given the price grain is making. It looks like there will be another bumper harvest in Russia. Given current prices, it appears that Germany and what I call the feed lodge units on the Continent are pushing yields to a great extent. They are milking two and a half to three times a day. They have Holstein cows with considerable yields. The producers have a small margin per litre, if there is any margin at all. We see it in the pattern of production. The downward pressure on price is not curtailing production anywhere around the world to any serious extent. Unless production levels are brought back, the Irish dairy sector as we know it will not survive.

I have had three or four men on to me in the past month who have been put under pressure by banks to sell land parcels. This is June 2016 and we must have a recovery in 2017, but no one can see any possibility of a recovery, unless production levels drop by approximately 4% to 5% worldwide and there is no indication that there will be that kind of drop. We talk about a work programme for the committee. Farm profitability has to be top of the agenda and the message has to be hammered home at every opportunity.

I worked with the Minister when he was on a different side of the table. I accept that he has a good understanding of farming and comes from an area that is experiencing severe income difficulties. He referred to the beef sector and said one should not talk down prices. We do not have to talk down prices; it is being done for us by processors. We are still in the month of June when prices should be peaking, but already factories have started to pull prices. I sold cattle this weekend and they are talking about weight and age restrictions. Cow prices are down by 10 cent to 15 cent per kilogram in the past ten days. Cow prices have always been the barometer by which one can judge beef prices. The UEFA European Championship is taking place. It always creates a good market for manufacturing beef. The Olympic Games are coming up in Rio de Janeiro. Even with all of these positive scenarios, the factories are in the month of June already starting to reduce prices.

The harsh reality is that we have extra cattle during this back end. Unfortunately, as dairy farmers try to bring some income through the farm gate, there will be extra cow cullings. I am not trying to talk down beef prices but they are not at an acceptable level and they will drop. We just cannot ignore that scenario. This will put significant pressure on an already pressurised sector.

With regard to live exports, we have heard of markets opening here and there, but there are no cattle moving. There was an announcement on Turkey a week or ten days ago in respect of lighter cattle. We have heard about access to markets being announced for the past 12 months to two years but, unless we see cattle moving, beef farmers will not have confidence. I obviously welcome the opening of markets but, unless there is movement of stock, the problem will not be solved. The recently announced Turkish market will not do anything for the crisis approaching this back end. Unfortunately, once the kill goes over 30,000 heads, the factories will do what they always did and try to trample farmers into the ground, as Deputy Penrose implied.

I question the commitment of Bord Bia to the live export trade. I was a member of Bord Bia for six years and sat on the board. I question whether it has real commitment to the live trade.

Profitability at farm level must be the paramount concern of this committee. If one were to talk to farmers about Harvest 2020, Food Wise 2025, increased production, increased export levels and the benefit of agriculture to the rural economy, one would want to be very near the door. With the income pressure currently on farmers, one would want a very good life assurance policy to be doing it.

With regard to the section the Chairman wants us to focus on, I welcome the ring-fencing of the €300 million for the beef genomics scheme. We should reopen it. There was a lot of bad press at the time in question. Beef farmers now see that their neighbours are able to access the scheme. If it were reopened, more people would apply. Any money that can be brought into that sector must be welcome. I thank the Minister for saying he will do his best to spend the money over the lifetime of the plan.

My final question relates to the horse and greyhound racing fund and the discussion on the sale of Harold's Cross and the potential this has for Bord na gCon to reduce its debt. If that sale does not go ahead, what will be the implications for the budget of Bord na gCon?

I have a couple of questions, the first of which is on the seafood development programme. In the 2015 outturn document, it is stated that the programme created 145 jobs through the grant announcements. This is a bugbear of mine because there is no requirement for jobs to be created in order to get a grant under the programme. I fail to see why jobs are continually linked to these programmes. It is very frustrating for me and those I represent because our experience of the seafood development programme in Donegal is that it shrinks the number of jobs. This is because factories have used it to rationalise and modernise, which has actually reduced the amount of work available. From talking to BIM, I have learned there is no requirement to create jobs to get grant aid. There is simply a question in the application process that asks how many jobs might be generated. A number is filled in. When the announcement is made, it is stated that, for example, ten jobs will be created. Job creation should not be attached to the seafood development programme. Let it stand on its own. The idea that jobs are being created is wrong and should not be furthered. With regard to the schemes that have been introduced, we can get the information from BIM at a later stage to determine the exact position.

On the Natura bays, could the Minister give us an update on the appropriate assessments? How many bays have been dealt with in respect of the aquaculture applications?

In the 2015 outturn for jobs in the agri-sector, seafood and forestry, there was a decline of 1,000 jobs nationally in the sector as against 2014. Will the Minister comment on whether a trend is starting or what is the reason for the decline? There was a decline in 2015 in the number of jobs in the agrifood, forestry and seafood sector of 1,000 nationally. Can the Minister comment on that?

I call Deputy Charlie McConalogue for a brief question.

This is a follow-up question which I hope the Minister will address when replying to the other questions. It concerns the beef data and genomics programme. Will the Minister elaborate in a little more detail? He indicated that €300 million has been allocated to the programme and that it is his intention to ensure it is spent on the programme during the course of the CAP. The programme involves a five-year commitment on behalf of farmers. As I indicated, the budget last year, which was the first year, was €52 million but only €35 million was spent. Therefore, there was an underspend of €17 million. The allocation for this year is €52 million. That is predicated, according to the Minister's figures, on 27,000 farmers having signed up to it. In his contribution, the Minister indicated that 25,000 farmers have signed up. On the basis that there are 2,000 fewer farmers, for whom the Minister had set funding aside to pay, I expect there will be an underspend this year. We had an underspend last year and a likely underspend this year. The CAP runs up to 2020. The commitment for farmers who sign up to the programme is five years. For anybody signing up now, the five years would run beyond 2020. If the Minister says he will spend that €300 million during the CAP programme on this particular scheme, I do not see how he can do that. Therefore, I cannot see why he is talking about reopening the scheme to further entrants at some stage and that he is keeping it under review. I thought he would have been reopening it now. I do not see how he can spend the full €300 million on the scheme by the end of 2020. Will the Minister elaborate on how he sees himself meeting that commitment?

I wish to ask two brief questions. There was an extra allocation for the commission for the economic development of rural areas, CEDRA, this year. What will it be spent on? Regarding late payments under the basic payments scheme last year, one of the big bugbears for people who had an issue and who could not contact the Department was when there was a change of staff. Will that issue be addressed in the event of difficulties arising next year?

I have pieces of paper all around me. My apologies to Deputy Martin Kenny who raised an issue about aquaculture licensing, an issue to which Deputy Thomas Pringle alluded. If I do not have some of the data I will get back to the Deputy. My understanding of the issue around aquaculture licences is that much of the difficulty we face arose from a European Court of Justice decision in 2007. Since that time we have been endeavouring to meet the terms of that European Court of Justice ruling. To date, the necessary appropriate assessments have been completed under the habitats directive in respect of 509 licence applications and assessment is pending in respect of 328 applications. I am considering whether a review of the licensing arrangements is needed. I acknowledge that in respect of the potential of aquaculture, we are only scratching the surface. Deputy Pringle will be aware of the significant potential that offers as an industry. Statistics brought to my attention graphically illustrate this in respect of farmed salmon. Off the coast of Norway, 1 million tonnes of farmed salmon is produced per annum.

Scotland produces 130,000 tonnes of farmed salmon per annum compared to between 12,000 and 15,000 tonnes produced here. Clearly, therefore, the industry has significant growth potential.

No one suggests we should not farm the land. A difficulty arises in reaching the full potential of sea farming. I acknowledge that in respect of aquaculture, it must proceed in a manner that allows the industry to coexist with other local interests, specifically tourism. We need to examine this issue to identify whether we can increase the industry's potential, especially the significant employment opportunities it offers.

The Deputy referred to the job content of the €240 million seafood development programme. I recently sanctioned some of the funding under this programme. On a visit to an enterprise involved in producing prepared meals, I found it interesting to see boxes of imported farmed salmon stacked in a corner. This example graphically illustrates the potential of the industry to displace imports. Many of the job opportunities available in this sector are in processing fish that are currently exported in an unprocessed state. While I accept that some fish types need to be exported in an unprocessed state, there are significant employment opportunities in fish processing.

I accept the Deputy's point that some of the investment must be made in new technology and increasing efficiency. Ultimately, however, we are talking about value added. The Deputy is not suggesting that any industry should turn its back on the potential to become more efficient. Sometimes this comes at a cost to job creation. In the long term, however, if we can grasp the full potential of the sector, it will increase employment, especially in coastal communities.

As has been noted, Bord Iascaigh Mhara's website provides abundant data on the various programmes it operates. The scale of funding available under the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund, EMFF, is significant. We can, in conjunction with the licensing arrangements in the aquaculture side, achieve significantly more than we have been achieving thus far.

To return to the point Deputy Jackie Cahill made on volatility, profitability and so forth, I do not propose to dwell on the profitability issue in respect of the recently published Teagasc farm survey because it is what it is. While I appreciate that the landscape in 2016 is very different, we have been in this space before. In 2009, milk prices were at or below current prices. We must acknowledge that volatility involves ups and downs.

Deputy Cahill also referred to grain prices and our competitor markets. Yesterday, Ornua made an interesting presentation setting out its market analysis. One of the issues it signalled in respect of interventions in the marketplace was that skimmed milk powder interventions have resulted in the removal from the market of approximately 2.5 billion litres of milk. This is a significant policy instrument which we will obviously continue to monitor in respect of whether further tonnage is required. The amount of skimmed milk powder going into intervention has increased to 350,000 tonnes. I appreciate that peak milk has been reached and it will probably not be necessary to avail of this instrument as milk production tapers off. However, these instruments are available.

Deputy Cahill also raised an issue regarding cattle prices. A host of markets for live exports are open, including Libya, Lebanon, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Serbia, Algeria and, most recently, Turkey. This does not mean that cattle will move because a whole series of variables need to fall into place. For example, the price for cattle must be right, currency fluctuations must be favourable and boats must be available. My Department is a key player in respect of the licensing of boats and we insist on the highest standards in respect of animal welfare. The bad publicity associated with an inappropriate incident could quickly close down the live exports market. We have the highest standards and nobody complains.

The State can open these markets but it is up to the industry to respond. The current price is above the average price here. I appreciate the point the Deputy makes about recent price dips in respect of cull cows and so on but the price is above the EU price at present and that makes it difficult for exporters to make their margin. They will only act if there is a return for them. It is an area, of opening markets, in which we must remain vigilant, not just in the live export trade but in respect of other market opportunities for processed beef.

I will now address issues in regard to the horse and greyhound fund in respect of Harold's Cross Greyhound Stadium. Under the horse and greyhound fund, the departmental funding is an 80:20 split. Bord na gCon has a well documented financial problems. We had an Indecon report, which identified some of the issues and charted a blueprint for the future. I appreciate that Harold's Cross Greyhound Stadium is part of that. I am not privy to the detail of it but I know from in-house discussions that the sale of Harold's Cross stadium is under active consideration. An issue in regard to the sale of the stadium is that the price will be impacted on by the local authority zoning of the area. I understand that it is under exploration at present.

The Chairman asked what is covered under CEDRA. There is an increase in the allocation, which is up to €1.5 million. That covers the Acorns programme, which is female entrepreneurship as well as the social farming initiative. I had a very interesting experience at the Bloom Festival where I met a participant of that social farming initiative and where people with a disability get a placement on farm holdings. I spoke to a sponsor and a beneficiary and it was an enlightening and uplifting experience to hear at first hand the benefits of the initiative. It could be mainstreamed if we work through other disability organisations. Very often the commentary we hear on placements for the disabled is that the placement that is provided is in many respects meaningless, with a lack of engagement. By contrast, with this social farming placement programme, albeit I had an engagement with only one sponsor and beneficiary, was very positive. The individual could not speak enough of the project. We also have funding under that programme for local markets, artisan food producers and so on.

My Department is not the lead Department in respect of CEDRA, but we fund some elements of it. The Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, would have responsibility for funding much of the programme. Under the rural development programme we access the Leader funding but we are effectively a postbox for the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

I understand the non-expenditure of the full amount of the beef data and genomics programme in 2015 was due to the scheme being up and running later than anticipated and the level of approvals not matching the provision which we had made for the scheme. We had made provision in budget 2015 but we did not spend the amount of money we anticipated we would. However, we are committed to spending it. There were issues of late compliance. For the benefit of Deputy McConalogue I will read from the briefing note. For 2015, the first year of the programme, the allocation was €52 million. However, payments are expected to total €35 million, yielding savings of €17 million. This is primarily because of a significant percentage of applications not having confirmed completion of their requirements to submit performance data on calves up to five months of age due to the timing of calving on their holdings and hence there was a delay in the draw down in 2015.

The most important point I can make is that the €17 million that was unspent carries over into 2016.

The exact numbers under the scheme - let me check that I have the data-----

Does that mean that there will be €52 million in addition to the €17 million from 2015 available for the following year?

The figure of €52 million includes the €17 million.

Does the Minister mean including the €17 million or plus the €17 million?

I mean including, not plus.

There is not a saving then as such. There is a saving to the Department but the money is being taken out of the scheme.

Yes. In the overall scheme, the commitment is €300 million. If one looks at other schemes that have wound down, for example, REPS 4, we are still paying some money out under it because of the delay in applications and some hang-over issues, even though the scheme is closed and has been gone for quite a while. There are still some delays. The commitment, which is absolute, is that the €300 million will be used in the beef data and genomics scheme. I think members will agree that notwithstanding the initial wariness of the scheme, for want of a better term, there is an acceptance that it can deliver significantly in a host of areas in terms of improving the genetic composition of the herd, climate change objectives and so on. The absolute commitment is that not withstanding the accounting procedures in respect of not having the expected drawdown in 2015 along with the roll-over of €17 million into 2016, the equivalent in the overall scheme is that the €300 million is available for the beef data and genomics programme. I can arrange to get a more detailed note to Deputy McConalogue, if he wishes, on the exact financial manoeuvres that have seen the late drawdown, the additional roll-over into 2016 and the commitment in the programme over the lifetime of the rural development plan.

There is €300 million for the beef data and genomics programme out of the overall CAP programme, which was to run until the end of 2020. Because the genomics programme is a five-year programme, once one enters it, one must participate in the programme for five years. As the Department has already underspent and there are fewer than five years at this stage to the end of the programme, is the Minister saying that some of that €300 million will run past the end of 2020 into 2021 or 2022? If so, it will run outside the timescale of the current CAP programme of 2015 to 2020. That being the case, the overall spending on the CAP programme over the 2015 to 2020 period will be reduced by the amount the Minister allowed to run over into 2021-2022. It would mean a lesser commitment from the Government in respect of the CAP programme than was originally committed to. The point I make is that it is exceptionally important the overall funding allocated to CAP at the outset is spent by the end of 2020. If there is an underspend in certain programmes inside that period, that money should be used and spent or reallocated as required to other initiatives. Should people enter the beef data and genomics scheme next year which will run into 2021-2022, the payment for the 2021-2022 beef data genomic payment should come from the subsequent CAP. The run over should not mean that the overall CAP envelope up to the end of 2020 is reduced. I do not see how the Minister is insistent that he will spend the €300 million on the beef data genomics programme that has been allocated to it. I simply do not see how that can happen logically unless the Minister spends some of that €300 million in 2021-2022.

I call Deputy Cahill and then Deputy Pringle.

May I interrupt?

I may have added to the confusion, but not deliberately. We need to get some things clear. The €300 million is the budget line commitment, which we are committed to ensuring over the lifetime of the rural development programme will be available under the beef data and genomics programme. It is the case - in fact a detailed analysis of the Estimates today will show that in other areas - that sometimes schemes run over the fixed term of the development programme. For example, we are still paying out under REPS 4.

Nobody is suggesting - I know that the Deputy is not - that because of late compliance issues we should say we are not paying the farmer. That is not the way the scheme works and we want to facilitate as many people as possible. What we are saying is that we had provided for greater numbers, that funding of €17 million was not drawn down because of late compliance issues and we rolled the money over. That is the reason €52 million is available in 2016. If we were to reopen the scheme to further applicants - the point made by Deputies - we would be paying them beyond the envisaged end date for the majority of schemes under the rural development programme. That is the normal provision. The Exchequer pays and the Commission makes a refund after we expend the money. We are still obtaining receipts in appropriations-in-aid from the Commission and they may well spill over. Administratively, these are never clean boxes. We will spend the sum of €300 million. The sum of €17 million was carried over because of late compliance issues. If we were to reopen the scheme - a question I was asked earlier and which is under active consideration - it would be to make sure we spent the €300 million. It is inevitable that some people will go beyond the five-year period envisaged ending in 2020. The track record of the Department, regardless of who sits in my chair, is second to none in maximising the draw-down and not leaving money behind under the rural development programme or any previous such programme. We maximise the draw-down and will do so under this scheme also. It is logical that if we were to reopen the scheme, it would run beyond 2020.

May I request a brief note on that point for the benefit of the committee?

I wish to ask about the previous experience of how schemes under the CAP which had overrun were dealt with by the Department and whether they were subsumed into the current programme or boxed off? In other words, did they benefit from the original funding or did it come from the €300 million for the current programme? That is an important point. I think it would show whether overruns took from the funding for subsequent programmes.

We will obtain a note on that matter.

I ask Deputy Jackie Cahill to be brief, as I want to move on to the next programme.

I wish to address some of the points the Minister made about the dairy crisis. The crisis in 2009 was short lived and thankfully prices bounced back very quickly. Production costs have since increased substantially, but, unfortunately, current price supports have not increased. They are at a level which does not reflect the cost of production. The third difference is that the level of investment on Irish dairy farms is far higher, while the level of debt is far higher than it was in 2009 due to planning for the abolition of quotas. As a farmer, I would welcome the abolition of the fertiliser tariff, but if one examines the price paid for fertilisers, it correlates with the level of farm profitability. In 2009 fertiliser prices dropped significantly. We now see them dropping because farmers are reducing the amounts they are purchasing owing to the fall in income. There is definitely a cartel in operation when it comes to fertiliser prices. I would, therefore, welcome abolition of the tariff, but I worry that when prices recover, the vendors of fertiliser will charge what they think farmers can afford. I would welcome an examination of the feasible price of fertiliser. The price follows our ability to pay rather what it is worth.

In regard to aquaculture licences, some 90 bays were covered by the European Court judgment. Does the Minister have figures for the number of bays that have been the subject of appropriate assessments at this stage? Will he also provide information on the level of overall employment in the agri-sector?

My understanding on the latter point is that it has to do with self-classification. Somebody might depart from farming and then get an off-farm job. He or she might term himself or herself as an employee but might still be farming on a part-time basis. The number in this regard fluctuates.

There have been many in each of the past five years, with the exception of last year.

The classification is an issue, as I understand it, with the CSO survey. It is not an issue for my Department. Our understanding is that people move between off-farm employment and part-time work on the farm. It is a self-declaration process.

In respect of the aquaculture licence, my understanding is that of the 90 bays involved, some 509 appropriate assessments for licences have been concluded. I can get the Deputy a more comprehensive briefing note. The 509 appropriate assessments that have been conducted as required under the 2007 European Court ruling and the 328 assessments which are still outstanding would encompass all 90 bays.

Have all the 90 bays been the subject of appropriate assessments, with conservation objectives being set?

They have been done for more than half.

So that is 45 bays?

More than half. We can get the Deputy a detailed briefing on them.

About three years ago 30 assessments had been done.

They are done on the basis of the total number of licences for each bay. We have carried out 509 assessments and there are 328 remaining to be done. I will obtain a more detailed briefing note for Deputy Pringle.

Is this a case of creative accounting? When we asked questions on this during the past five or six years the answer was always couched in terms of the number of bays involves. I was told that assessments had been carried out in respect of 30 bays.

I do not have the information with me, but I will get it for the Deputy.

I want the number of bays in respect of which the appropriate assessments have been completed and for which the conservation objectives have been set.

I will come back to the Deputy with a more detailed note.

I think it was Deputy D'Arcy who raised the issue of TAMS, which I know will be of interest to members. We faced choices in the Department. We could have slowed down the roll-out of individual programmes. We went with the maximum possible roll-out at the earliest possible date. We are struggling to put in place the appropriate back-office arrangements to deal with it. Payments are to start in July in respect of the specific matter that was raised.

I think Deputy McConalogue tabled a detailed parliamentary question on approvals last week. Since the reply to that question was issued, the number of approvals has increased significantly. They are going out on a daily basis. I acknowledge that if we are to be criticised for anything, it is for ambition to get the schemes open to people at the earliest possible date. We are commencing payment in July. If there is a specific application that is stuck in the system that needs approval for winter housing or pollution control measures, the Department would look at those on an individual case by case basis where necessary.

On the TAMS issue, I did not think it would be covered until later.

It comes up under programme C. We will take it briefly.

I am responding to the questions that were asked.

The Minister referred to the farmers' charter earlier. In a past life, I sat on the farmers' charter group. There were always specific timescales put in place on the farmers' charter. I respect that the commencement of TAMS will cover a number of schemes, but if one makes an application, there should be a timescale within which the application has to be dealt with and the same should be the case when one is approved for payment. That is the way the farmers' charter used to work in the past. It has gone out the window as regards TAMS II but I think we need to put a strict timescale in place. I presume the farmers' charter group meets on a regular basis. Departmental officials used to be obliged to come before that group and defend the Department's payment record.

We need to get that operating again for TAMS, regardless of whether it is 30 days, 42 days or whatever is the agreed timescale for approval of applications and payment after work is completed. Given the cashflow problems, there should no delay in payment for jobs of work done. That is critical. People are in dire need of those grant payments. When payment starts in July, I hope it will be made quickly and promptly to all those who have been approved.

A new charter of farmers' rights was negotiated and came into effect in 2015 following consultation with the various farm organisations. A monitoring committee, under the chairmanship of Dr. Seán Brady, is charged with the ongoing review of the charter. The committee is supposed to meet four times each year. We aspire to meet but we do not always do so. The staff in the Department aspire to meet. There are resource issues as I alluded to earlier. Difficulties were associated with the transition period to a new basic payments system from the single farm payment. One of the issues that gave rise to the greatest number of complaints was AEOS. Those complaints arose on foot of the complexity of the scheme. The Department is committed to the highest standard of service delivery to customers and the farming community. I know the frustration felt by a farmer who telephones the Department and is unable to pursue his inquiry to its logical conclusion and who then, when he telephones a week later, must deal with a different person. I have discussed this issue in-house.

Members will note in the Estimates a provision for staff costs and improvements in respect of expenditure in that area in 2016. It is worth bearing in mind that in the period 2008 to 2015 there was a 28% reduction in staff numbers in the Department. That is a very significant staff reduction at a time when the range and complexity of schemes was moving in the other direction. We have reached a critical situation and we are beginning to rebuild capacity in some critical areas. I hope that will lead to service improvements in payments to farmers. Obviously, the farmers' charter of rights is always there as a stick in respect of our in-house performance. I am committed to working towards having the best systems in place. Some of that will flow from the increased provision in the budget for staff improvements. It is a modest improvement. It provides for 200 staff in the 12 months period who are filling gaps in critical areas. That is one of the critical areas. I have been in Portlaoise in the direct payments offices and have discussed this issue with the key staff involved. I hope we will not have a repetition of those delays at the back end of this year.

Overall, it is worth bearing in mind that the overwhelming majority of farmers receive their payments promptly. However, there is a core residue. If a farmer is of that core residue, he or she will telephone Deputies Cahill, McConalogue, Martin Kenny and Pringle or the Chairman and they will all be chasing the issue. We need to put in place a system that obviates the necessity for that kind of a merry-go-round and that will allow farmers to utilise a direct access point and prosecute their inquiries effectively. That is the ambition and that is what the charter is about also.

If the Minister has some up-to-date information on that issue, whether it be in respect of TAMS, the beef genomics scheme or whatever, he might forward it to the committee and we will circulate it to the members.

We can do that. The data are available in respect of the subhead for additional staff. Provision is made for 200 staff in terms of critical areas where we see-----

Does it deal mainly with the schemes?

No. Some of it would relate to IT systems. The lack of appropriate IT systems would have been one of the issues that delayed the TAM scheme. We did not have the IT systems necessary to deal with the complexity of that scheme. We are rebuilding some of the capacity dismantled during a period when resources were scarce.

I call Deputy McConalogue for a brief question.

I wish to pursue an issue raised by Deputy Pringle on the appropriate assessments relating to Natura bays. Is there a target date in place as to when those assessments are expected to be completed? Are matters on course in this regard?

I will forward a detailed note on that issue to members.

We will now move on to programme B. We have covered a lot of ground already but there are some specific areas in programme B that we have not discussed yet. I ask the Minister to introduce the programme and then members can ask the appropriate questions.

The focus of programme B is to promote and enhance the already high standards of food safety, consumer protection, animal health and welfare and plant health. A total allocation of €218 million has been made under this programme for 2016. The programme represents the country's key defences against animal and plant disease threats through the implementation of food and feed safety monitoring, inspection and control programmes at primary producer and processor levels and by promoting and enforcing enhanced animal and product identification to support food safety and animal health and welfare. It also contains the various animal and fish disease control and eradication programmes in order to make significant progress towards eradication of certain diseases, promote high animal welfare standards and secure compliance with regulations.

Significant progress has been made with regard to the costs associated with the TB and brucellosis eradication programme in recent years. Required funding has fallen from €62.5 million in 2008 to €30.3 million in 2015. Within that figure the cost of the TB programme itself has fallen from €55 million to €30 million. The reduction in expenditure is largely due to the fact that the number of reactors fell by almost 50% between 2008 and 2015 from 29,900 to 15,200. The incidence of other animal diseases and associated costs has also generally seen a reduction. While these improvements are welcome, we cannot be complacent. This year, €218 million has been allocated to programme B, €83 million of which is directly related to food safety, animal health and welfare and plant health programmes.

In budget 2016, additional funding of €0.6 million has been provided to support the voluntary welfare organisations. This brings total funding for this area to €2.7 million for 2016, an increase of over 27%. In addition, funding of €2.8 million has been allocated to assist local authorities in reducing the incidence of horse abandonment and in advancing horse projects for urban and Traveller horse owners.

Do members have any questions on programme B?

Does the plant health inspection programme relate only to agricultural and commercial plants? What does the programme entail? What measures and sanctions will be put in place under that programme? I note that the programme will be implemented this year for the first time, although it has been planned for a number of years. What will the inspection programme look like? What level of inspections can be expected?

Irish farming is generally considered to be in compliance with all of the relevant EU regulations and standards. Our milk and beef sectors are grass based which is unusual in the EU and yet we have one of the lowest milk prices of all member states. The price does not reflect the high standards we are expected to meet. That feeds into the whole issue about the very strict controls that we have in place which is what programme B is all about.

I wish to make a comment in the context of the various animal and fish disease control programmes. The Minister spoke earlier about the potential of salmon farming in Ireland but we must be careful not to compare ourselves with places like Norway or northern Scotland where very deep fjords provide a very safe environment for fish farming. The west of Ireland is a totally different environment and there are very serious dangers posed by escapes in the context of disease control. While I understand that aquaculture may have potential here, we must be very cautious. We cannot compare ourselves with other countries which have an entirely different environment.

I wish to comment on the issue of consumer protection and the regulations in place in that regard.

Last week a person was found to have transgressed the rules governing growth promoters and banned substances. I congratulate the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on catching that person out and the full rigours of the law should be brought to bear on him. Such behaviour does serious damage to our reputation and persons engaged in such activity should have no mercy shown to them. They can do serious damage to our economy. We can argue here about different aspects of policy but people engaged in that kind of activity should be given no quarter. I hope that the full rigours of the law are brought to bear in this case.

On bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD, and the eradication scheme, I cannot understand how some herd owners have been allowed to keep positive animals on their farms. We had a three year programme for BVD but it does not look like we will fully eradicate the disease in that timeframe. The fact that people have been allowed to hold positive animals and have not been forced to dispose of them makes a mockery of the scheme. It is also very annoying for their neighbours. Unfortunately, in this, the third year of the scheme, people are reporting BVD positive animals for the first time and that should not be happening. If we are going to have a disease eradication scheme operating through Animal Health Ireland we need strict regulations and must insist that if animals are positive, they must be taken out of the system. It defeats the purpose of the scheme if herd owners are allowed to keep positive animals which are a source of disease. A lot of money has been spent on controlling BVD but the failure to eradicate it is undermining farmers' confidence about entering any future schemes. If Animal Health Ireland is to embark on another pilot programme, farmers must have confidence in it. The retention of positive animals on farms is ridiculous.

On the TB figures, it is great to see the reduction in the number of TB reactors. The programme that was undertaken a number of years ago to control the badger population and limit the spread of TB through wild life has yielded positive results in terms of the reduction in the TB reactor numbers. However, in County Wicklow there is a serious problem with the deer population, which is running rampant. Some farmers have even changed their farming practices because they find it impossible to keep bovines now, due to the permanent restrictions on them because of TB as well as the cost of keeping animals over the winter. We must face up to this serious issue. Deer can travel long distances and are very hard to contain. The size of the deer population in Wicklow must be taken seriously because it is indisputable that deer are infected with TB. How the deer population became infected - whether it was through badgers or some other means - is immaterial to farmers. The fact is that the deer population is infected, the herd is growing and the problem must be tackled. If we do not deal with it in Wicklow, it will spread to other parts of the country. We must keep the deer population at a realistic level and if deer are causing a TB problem for farmers then a programme similar to the one for badgers must be put in place. It has worked with badgers but the issue with deer has not yet been tackled. It is a problem that we cannot ignore any longer.

I will deal with the last point first, if I may. I acknowledge that there is a specific issue in Wicklow. In fact, the incidence of TB in Wicklow to date this year is 5.67% which is well ahead of the national average of 2.73%. I note the point Deputy Cahill made in respect of the possible contribution of deer to that increase in TB incidence. There is a non-statutory Irish deer management forum in which the Department and other stakeholders are participants.

We see that forum as the appropriate place to deal with this, in conjunction with the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht which has responsibility for the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the agency that will issue the licence for a cull if it is deemed necessary. It is an issue on our horizon in the Department. We are conscious of the correlation between the significant increase in the problem of deer with regard to the management of conventional agricultural practices and the increased incidence of TB. We see the deer forum as a way of progressing that. I will keep the Deputy informed of developments in that regard.

The Deputy also referred to the issue of BVD, bovine viral diarrhoea. This was referred to earlier in respect of Animal Health Ireland and Johnes disease. The initiative in which Animal Health Ireland has been involved has made significant progress. The herd incidence of BVD dropped from 0.66% in 2013 to 0.33% in 2015. That is progress but I appreciate there is a problem in respect of persistently infected animals, PIs, remaining on some holdings. In 2014, we introduced an ex gratia payment to encourage the disposal of PIs. In terms of appropriate and proper health management of their herds, farmers should embrace this initiative. PIs are a danger not just to their herd’s health but also to neighbouring herds. That is why the Department has stepped in with this ex gratia payment.

While a PI cannot be moved, is the whole herd restricted from being sold or is it just the PI?

I understand it is just the PI. I will clarify that.

A herd that holds PIs should be completely restricted. That would force them to get rid of the PIs.

The ex gratia payment is seen as a way of accelerating that. To be fair, we would not want to overstate it either. The incidence has gone from 0.66% in 2013 to 0.33% in 2015

I accept that but at the outset of the three-year programme, it was stated it would completely eradicate BVD. If we restricted those farms which have PIs from moving animals, they would be forced to deal with it. I accept a carrot was held out but some of these farms did not avail of it. I had two farmers on to me who had PIs for the first time this year. They put it down to PIs being kept on a neighbouring farm. I am disappointed that after three years of the scheme, farms are being freshly infected. If we are going to run schemes like this to tackle a specific disease, if PIs are found on a farm, farmers cannot be allowed to decide for themselves whether they are removed.

The Department works closely with Animal Health Ireland in this area. We did introduce an ex gratia payment in 2016 to fund the removal of animals. No one is going to make much money on the scheme but it does help. I appreciate the difficulty for any neighbouring herdowner whose herd becomes infected through no fault of his own. However, we would not want to overstate the significance of the incidence either, which currently stands at 0.33%.

The recent detection of clenbuterol proves the benefit of the investment the State makes in traceability and inspections, which are the cornerstone of the industry which we seek to promote, protect and see prosper.

That this incident was detected and dealt with effectively is good. The Department was led on the matter primarily by the Food Safety Authority of Ireland in terms of consumer safety. I share the Deputy’s frustration that somebody would recklessly put the entire industry in the spotlight. I am pleased, however, that the Department’s monitoring, surveillance and traceability systems stood up to scrutiny. I cannot say too much about the topic because it is the subject of ongoing investigation, but the Department will pursue the matter appropriately.

Deputy Martin Kenny raised the issue of our level of compliance. The subtext is that we are always the good people in Europe in complying with all of the regulations, but the reward is that we have the lowest milk prices in Europe. The Deputy is conflating two issues. As an island nation which produces a lot of food across many ranges, we have to export 90% of it. Accordingly, we have to have the highest standards. In terms of the commitment of primary producers to origin green labelling and reducing our carbon footprint, it is critical to our marketing initiative because it gives us a cutting edge in the prices we can seek and as we seek to add value in the food chain. We export 90% of our dairy produce. Many of the markets across the European Union which are paying higher prices for milk are substantially domestic markets. They do not have the cost of getting their product to, say, the United States, the rest of Europe or emerging markets in China. Our second largest market for dairy produce outside the United Kingdom is China. We have the associated costs. Even at a time when the Chinese market has slowed, we have increased our footprint there, particularly for infant formula, but we can only do it if we are the best in class. I do not believe we should make any apology for being best in class in meeting the minimum standards required by the European Union. We should also give ourselves an additional edge in the marketplace with our origin green, carbon footprint programmes. If we did not have all of this, what would the price be?

There is frustration from the farmers’ point of view in that they work hard, but they are at the bottom of the price tables. There needs to be some acknowledgement of their frustration. When we send people to market our product, we need to know how we can move up the food chain to get a better return for the farmer. Farmers in Ireland see themselves as putting in all of the work but everybody else making all of the money.

There is an issue with the food chain generally. The people who feel most cheated in the food chain are the primary producer and the consumer at the other end. There is an initiative by the Commission from which we expect to receive a report at the back end of the year. The European Commissioner, Mr. Phil Hogan, has said he might be able to bring forward proposals early in 2017. In February the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation introduced new regulations to strengthen the position of the primary producer in dealings with the multiples. This is an area in which ongoing vigilance is required to ensure they are working and having the desired effect. That was the intent behind the legislation. I take the Deputy's broad point. We have to be conscious of the fact, however, that we are an island nation and need to get 90% of our product, whether it be dairy, sheepmeat or beef, to the market.

On Deputy Thomas Pringle's inquiry about the inspection regime, in terms of animal health, it is pretty much standard. It covers meat plant supervision and the detection regime, about which we spoke with reference to clenbuterol.

In the area of plant health, for example, we have surveys of horticultural nurseries, garden centres, public parks, private properties, etc. We are involved in a range of activities in that area to try to ensure we protect that sector, which is a significant employer.

Would that plant health scheme include addressing Japanese knotweed?

The local authorities are involved in respect of Japanese knotweed.

Would the Minister envisage the Department initiating and funding a control programme?

In the diseases legislation, we identify the local authorities as agents in terms of the appropriate follow-up response. Along the roadsides, one sees all-too-prevalent signage erected by various local authorities identifying the issue of Japanese knotweed and asking people not to interfere. With conventional hedge trimming, if one interferes with Japanese knotweed, one only multiplies it. We identify the issue and the Department carries out the appropriate steps. I presume there is a spraying regime to try to kill the weed.

What does it involve?

I do not know. I am not an expert in the area. However, the weed appears to be in decline as a consequence of the spraying regime.

Is it a matter of all plant health across all farm and off-farm settings?

Yes. We have inspection regimes for imports in that area to ensure we are not being exposed to any diseases through import. There are significant imports of saplings to nurseries. Seed testing, including the testing of seed potatoes, is another initiative in which the Department is involved.

I ask the Minister to introduce programme C, after which we will have questions. We have covered a lot of this area already. We will try to address what we have not covered.

The focus of programme C is to promote economically, socially and environmentally sustainable farming, fishing and forestry. The key strategies underpinning this programme include the implementation of the rural development programme, the protection of the agriculture and fishing environments through environmentally friendly systems, the implementation of environmental cross-compliance standards and processes, and the improvement of income levels of farm, forest and marine enterprises through policy schemes and services that help sustain the rural and coastal economy. In pursuit of the priorities outlined, budget 2016 has provided €494 million in 2016 to the rural development programme. The rural development programme will see an investment of some €4 billion in Irish agriculture over the years 2014 to 2020 and it is a key support for rural areas. Rural development programme schemes provide vital investment in the rural economy, prioritise agri-environmental protection and support the incomes of family farms. Overall for 2016, €494 million has been provided for investment under the rural development programme. This figure is up from €439 million in 2015, representing an increase of over 12.5%.

Some 196 million has been made available for agri-environmental schemes, including REPS, AEOS, the green low-carbon agri-environment scheme, GLAS, and organics. Some 38,000 farms will benefit this year under GLAS, which encourages farmers to farm in a more environmentally sustainable manner. This scheme will ultimately support up to 50,000 farmers and require funding of €250 million per annum in future years. I will be opening the scheme to new applicants in the autumn.

Almost €36 million has been allocated to TAMS for 2016. This will provide funding for the young farmer capital investment scheme in addition to dairy equipment, organic capital investment, pig and poultry investments, the animal welfare safety and nutrients storage scheme, and the low-emissions slurry spreading scheme. Sheep fencing is now included as an investment item in TAMS II and it can now be applied for in the current and subsequent tranches.

A total of 5,578 applications have been received under the three tranches to date. Approvals and part approvals have been issued in respect of over 2,289 of these cases and are continuing to be issued on an ongoing basis. Importantly, the TAMS IT payment claims system is currently being finalised, and payments will commence in the second half of this year. Approval has also been sought from the Commission for a scheme to specifically target the tillage sector, with support for appropriate investments. Formal approval is expected by the end of this month, and the scheme will be available for online applications soon after that.

Reference was made to the compensation to be received by farmers with SACs and SPAs on their land. Serious restrictions have been placed on them in the use of their land. From where will the funding come and when will it be introduced?

On the ban on forestry in conservation areas, the hen harrier has been mentioned. Where there is forestry at various stages of development in these areas, there is evidence appearing which suggests the hen harrier might flourish. If we were to meet our afforestation targets while being banned from planting in areas of conservation, it would be extremely hard to meet the targets. I would like to see research into whether having forestry at different stages of development could work in providing a habitat for the hen harrier. If so, it would add greatly to our ability to meet our afforestation targets. The land in question is extremely suited to forestry, but with the ban on forestry, the land is devalued. If it could be proved that the hen harrier could be accommodated by having forestry at different stages of development, it would be a great advancement for the areas in question.

One of the issues in my area with forestry is one I have raised before with the Minister and the Minister of State. In County Leitrim 17% of the land is under forestry. I believe the figure is probably closer to 20%, given the amount of land that has been planted recently. Afforestation, in itself, is fine. It is productive and generates an income for many people who plant their land. However, the difficulty is that in rural communities it just wipes out the people and we end up with no people living in an area. When I look out my front door, I note that there is probably one small section of the horizon in which no trees meet the skyline. I once counted nine families who were living on the farms in question but no one is living on them anymore. This means the rural community is deprived of life. For every 1,000 acres of land planted, one long-term sustainable job is created. A tree that takes 35 or 40 years to grow is cut into timber in 20 minutes in the sawmill. The labour intensity associated with forestry is so low that there is no work available. Although there is an income for the person who owns the land or, in many cases, the companies that buy it - that is another issue - afforestation is a total disaster for rural communities and a disaster in sustaining the social fabric of rural life. It is a problem that needs to be examined and dealt with in some way. I am not suggesting we need to slap a ban on forestry or anything like it, but we need to examine its effect on the future of the communities living in the areas in question.

Although afforestation reduces the carbon footprint and has other positive features, it is very negative for the communities that live in the areas planted. Something ought to be done to ensure we can keep rural schools open, rural communities active and the traditions of rural Ireland alive, if we want to cherish it. We have to choose whether we want to maintain it. Afforestation is destroying it where I live. This issue needs to be dealt with.

On land designation, TAMS and the new sheep fencing scheme, farmers are contacting me to state that, because their land has been designated, they are not allowed to fence it. Therefore, their sheep are getting out onto the road and the county council is writing to them to ask them to fence their land because the sheep are causing accidents. One sector is stopping people from fencing the land, while another is offering grants for fencing. Some common sense needs to come into play in this regard, particularly where roads run through commonages. A way needs to be found to square the circle.

I have a number of issues with the level of spending on agri-environmental schemes which include the REPS and the AEOS. I wonder whether the funding for the REPS and the AEOS comes from the current or the previous CAP envelope. This goes back to my point about the beef data and genomics scheme, that should the scheme run until 2020-21 and 2021-22, there would be no underspend on the projected spend under the current CAP programme. The treatment of the REPS and the AEOS is instructive in that regard.

In the reply to the parliamentary question I tabled last week it was stated that of the €52 million that had been allocated for the REP scheme, just over €30 million had been paid out in 2015. Of the €20 million allocated for the GLAS scheme, just €11 million had been paid out. However, there was an overspend of €8 million under the AEOS. Is it expected that there will be an underspend this year and, if so, how will the money be utilised otherwise? Will the Minister indicate his intentions on how to get more farmers involved in the GLAS scheme? Does he expect the number of farmers participating in it to reach the 50,000 mark?

On the latter question, we will use up the €250 million allocated; therefore, we will reopen the GLAS scheme. On the REPS payments to which I alluded in respect of the beef data and genomics scheme, it is a carryover from the previous rural development programme. If the beef data and genomics scheme overruns, we have secured funding under the current programme. If we were to reopen the scheme, it would run to 2021 and the payments would be made from the current envelope. This goes back to my point that the overwhelming objective in the Department is not to leave one brown cent unclaimed under any of the co-funded schemes.

Deputy Martin Kenny raised a number of points about forestry. I, too, represent a rural constituency and have been down this road before. I know the emotion generated at public meetings where neighbouring landowners may wish to expand their holdings, but we must be very careful because an individual landowner has the right to sell his or her land and for every willing seller, there may be a purchaser.

It is interesting to look at the profile of those investing in forestry. I know that there is an inference in the debate on forestry in County Leitrim that it is "outsiders" or those involved in "big business" who are coming in to buy land. In 2014, 96% of the investment made in forestry in the county was made by farmers and 4% by non-farmers. In 2015, 81% of the investment was by farmers and 19% by non-farmers. The Department cannot tell a landowner that he or she is not entitled to plant his or her land. The scheme is open, subject to meeting the eligibility criteria. Forestry is a critical component of the infrastructure used by the State in the context of climate change carbon sequestration. As committee members know, the agriculture sector will have to carry its proportionate share to reduce the carbon footprint. It is in that overall context that we have a great story to tell about the commitment made by the farming community generally, but forestry plays a critical part in the reduction of carbon levels.

Forestry generates significant employment, in planting, maintenance, harvesting and the building of forest roadways, as well as in the case of thinnings. Medite has a significant new investment in Belview Port in Waterford.

We are benefiting from the downstream employment opportunity created by forestry. It is displacing imports. That is something we must be cognisant of as well. We have a significant commitment to the industry.

I have two points based on my experience and that of most people I see around me. Farmers are planting their land. What we see is that a farmer with 100 acres decides to plant all of his land and so he or she ceases to farm. They give up farming their marginal and poor quality land as they can make more from the forestry grants than they will make from farming the land. That is the difficulty. They then move away and there is nobody left in the area. It is not an argument about whether forestry is good or bad, but the social and long-term consequences it has on the rural community. That is the argument I want examined.

In regard to employment generated by forestry, I see most of the work is on mounding land for forestry and the people who have digging machinery do this work, and there is a bit of work in thinning and maintaining the forestry, but if one divides the work over the length of time it takes this crop to grow and mature, it generates a very low level of employment. That is the reality.

Nobody is disputing these facts. The problem that people have is that forestry sterilises the landscape and it will never produce anything other than the trees. The trees require low level labour intensity. There are vast areas of the country, whole townlands where nobody lives anymore. That is the death knell of rural Ireland. We see that mass afforestation in my part of the country will cause significant problems. I accept all the positive arguments but the negative it has for the communities in which we live is the problem. What are we going to do about that problem? How can we ensure we can have other industries and other business that will maintain and sustain people to want to live and stay in these areas? Can there be other incentives put in place? There are significant incentives for people to plant land, yet there are few incentives for alternatives. That is the challenge presented by afforestation.

I appreciate the point Deputy Kenny raises. In the programme for Government there is a commitment to review the impact of the forestry sector in rural communities. I think the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government as well as the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine have a role to play in that context.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine does not target any specific area. It is the case that the return on investment relative to other farming opportunities, forestry would have significant advantages. Deputy Kenny made the point that the problem arises where the farmer decides to plant 100% of his holding. In fact some of the incentives offer significant encouragement to do the opposite, in terms of lower stocking densities, retaining their basic payments and so on, which the non-farmers would not benefit from.

We are committed to a review of the area. I appreciate the heat generated by that issue. I have been in that space. There is a range of issues at play, the right of the individual, who is the landowner, the strong constitutional and legal protections in respect of property owners and the right to farm their land, whether that is farming by livestock, by cropping, growing trees and the schemes on offer. In fact, there is a slight skewing of the schemes in favour of people who remain some way involved in agriculture.

It is important to bear in mind the statistics in respect of who is planting in Leitrim. One also has the benefit of downstream employment, something I forgot to mention in my headlong rush to highlight what is happening in Waterford port. We have Masonite in Carrick-on-Shannon.

That is right. We would welcome a review of the consequences. I suggest that the communities who live in these areas should have an input into the review in order to build a consensus.

Let us move on to the other issues. Deputy McConalogue had a query.

Deputy McConalogue raised the issue of re-opening the GLAS scheme and I have dealt with his specific query.

Deputy Kenny raised the issue of fencing. In certain circumstances, there may be a requirement to get either planning or a certificate of exemption from the local authority. In particular, that proviso may apply where replacement of existing fencing is required but that is a matter for the local authority. Recently, my Department announced that fencing for sheep would be grant-aided under TAMS. Again, fencing is an issue for the local authority. I imagine, but I cannot be specific, that a letter of exemption from the local authority may be granted in cases where fencing is being replaced. Fencing virgin territory, which is land that has never been fenced, may run into issues of planning approval. I imagine that local authorities would adopt a pragmatic approach to the matter.

Deputy Cahill raised the issue of the hen harrier, which I have dealt with previously. As I said, we hope to submit a rural development amendment to the Commission by the end of this month. Our ambition is to have the scheme up and running by 2017. Through a combination of the new scheme and GLAS, we want something approaching equivalence to what existed previously for the landowners who face significant restrictions. The GLAS scheme provides payments for designated Natura 2000 lands and there is prioritised access to GLAS in respect of those lands.

There are different stages of forestry in an SAC. Evidence has come forward that the hen harrier can live in places that have different stages of forestry. It would be desirable to allow that to happen rather than have a complete ban on an SAC. As Deputy Kenny pointed out, if SACs were available for planting it would alleviate some of the problems that he mentioned.

All those issues form part of the long awaited threat response plan. I am disappointed it has taken this long to get the plan finalised. I take the point made. It is interesting, in respect of the most recent survey on hen harriers, that the number of breeding pairs is still in decline notwithstanding all of the efforts made to date. I know the hen harrier is a wonderful bird. I have engaged with people who have their lands designated to protect this species and realise their work is informed by the objective of preserving the species. At some stage, it may well be that science and research will conclude that something is amiss in respect of our endeavours to protect the bird. One can see from the history of the planet that not every species survives. I hope that the hen harrier can survive and prosper but we need to accelerate our endeavours to conclude the threat response plan. We must see where that leads. In the interim, my Department is doing everything possible in respect of amending the rural development programme and getting a scheme up and running in 2017.

The next item is programme D.

The focus of programme D is to deliver schemes and services effectively and efficiently, provide a quality service to all of our clients and adhere to the highest standards of good corporate governance. The key policies driving this programme include providing farm income support through the implementation of the areas of natural constraint scheme and maintaining high standards of financial management, as verified by reports from the audit committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General, FEOGA - the certifying body - and EU auditors. In budget 2016, €200 million has been allocated to areas of natural constraint under the rural development programme, an increase on the initial allocation of €195 million in previous years. This funding will continue to support farmers farming in disadvantaged areas and will generate important multiplier effects in local economies.

The Minister has discussed this area already.

The income pressure affecting farmers has been well discussed.

Will the Minister ensure that 70% of the basic payments scheme is paid in October? If so, when will he give a commitment to do so? Considering the financial pressure that farmers are experiencing, it is important that the commitment is given earlier in order to reassure them that the payment is on its way.

A commitment has been given to increase areas of natural constraint payments by €25 million in budget 2018. Will the Minister bring that increase forward into next year's budget?

Deputy Cahill and many other members mentioned the massive income pressure faced by farmers. The dairy sector, in particular, is under severe pressure at present. Does the Department have the ability - on foot of a request to Europe - to provide low-interest bridging finance to farmers? Such an initiative would enable farmers to pay merchant bills and having to produce underneath the cost of production. Will the Department introduce a scheme to provide low-income finance to farmers? Will the Department engage with Europe to put a structure in place to deliver such a scheme?

I have a query about the areas of natural constraint and, in particular, what were traditionally known as the disadvantaged areas payments. There has been a certain amount of development over the years because much of this country has been designated as a disadvantaged area. I come from an place that has very marginal and mountain lands. The people there are very much of the view that increased designation is necessary and should happen in areas where it is needed most. Farmers in these areas face the greatest struggle in order to make a living because the lands are the least productive - we have the longest winter and the soil condition is very poor. It has been stated that an extra €25 million will be made available next year. I hope this money will be given to farmers who farm marginal and mountain lands.

Can the Minister tell me whether there is funding available for biomass production? Alternative crops can be CO2 positive but they are short-term in nature and more labour intensive. Is there a plan to introduce an increased level of support for biomass production?

I acknowledge that farmers are experiencing cashflow difficulties. We are pursuing, with the Commission, the possibility of facilitating the earliest possible payment of the basic payments scheme. The earliest possible date allowed is 16 October. We have raised the matter with the Commission but have not received an answer.

There is no prospect of the €25 million being paid in 2017. It will be paid in 2018, as per the programme for Government. As Deputy McConalogue will be aware, regardless of how the €25 million is apportioned between less and more severely handicapped areas, it will not make up for the cuts previously introduced. It is a step in the right direction, but it will not take us back to where we were.

Regarding the point that more severely handicapped areas should have the first call, a review of disadvantaged areas is under way on foot of a European Commission decision. It covers criteria in terms of the biophysical composition of lands, the slope, the drainage and so on. The question of how the €25 million is apportioned could fall into the outcome of that reclassification process.

What is the timeframe on that?

A preliminary outcome is expected at the end of this year, but the measure must be in place by 2018. The survey is under way as we speak, but the €25 million will not be paid out in 2017.

We have a forestry for fibre programme, which differs from the run-of-the-mill forestry programme, and we are considering introducing a new initiative for growing willow for biomass, although no final decision has been made. The forestry programme is about more than just planting-----

We are considering the specifics of biomass, paying particular regard to willow, but there is already a forestry for fibre-----

Will there be a special programme for that?

We have not decided on the details yet, but a programme is under active consideration.

Will the Minister elaborate on his thoughts on the willow programme? What of his engagement with the Department of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys? A White Paper on renewable energy has been produced. A part of the problem for willow growers is finding a market for their product. In Northern Ireland and Britain, a renewable heat incentive was introduced for the use of willow and other products. In their experience, rewarding those who used the product seemed to be a more successful way of creating a market than giving capital grants for the installation of appropriate boilers. A number of willow growers are struggling to find markets because of the lack of businesses and domestic users that have suitable boilers. Will the Minister elaborate on this issue? While we need to promote this work, it is essential that we view it in the round so as to ensure that there is a market once the product is produced.

We are considering this matter. We had a willow project, but it did not attract much interest. We had a sum total of four applicants. It was different from the conventional forestry programme in the sense that we did not pay a premium, but an establishment grant, because the harvesting period was much shorter.

I appreciate the Deputy's points about the benefit to municipal heating systems and so forth. That said, it is one thing to grow willow, but it is another to have somewhere to send the product. We need a full roadmap, not just for the product's growth, but for an outlet once it has been harvested.

Before we put our toes back in the water, we are anxious to ensure the scheme works. It might be seen as a more appropriate forestry option in some of the communities to which Deputy Martin Kenny referred because there is a much shorter rotation. We are considering the matter. Our initial foray was not successful, with a total of four applicants under the scheme.

I understand power stations are to move away from burning peat. For example, I believe the peat-burning power station in Lanesborough will shift to using biomass in the long term.

I have a lot of responsibilities, but I do not have any responsibility for those stations.

I know, but-----

I appreciate that they are-----

It is fine discussing a small community or someone with a swimming pool using a biomass boiler, but doing something major is required to have the scale to which we have referred.

For someone who a while ago did not want to grow too many trees, the Deputy is now talking about growing many of them.

I know, but at least it would be labour intensive and involve an alternative use of land. If farmers were given this support, it could keep them living in the area, as they would have to be there to harvest their crops every few years.

I appreciate that. This is one of the issues on which we need joined-up thinking.

If burning peat is an activity that is being phased out, the use of an alternative fuel source that is compatible with our climate change objectives and so on could work. It is under active consideration in the Department.

Will the Department be proactive and establish a scheme to provide low-cost credit for farmers?

At the April Council of Agriculture Ministers it was decided under state aid rules to offer states the option of exploring a financial mechanism to provide up to €15,000 for farmers. We are in consultation with farming organisations and are exploring what we can do on this matter. The Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, and the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, which used to be the National Pensions Reserve Fund, are involved in providing lower cost loans for the farming community. Some 21% of their investments to date have been in the primary producer sector, in particular, farming but also fisheries and forestry. This space has only been open to us since the April Council's decision. We are pursuing the possibilities in that regard.

I invite the Minister to discuss programme E.

Programme E shows the anticipated appropriations-in-aid or receipts, estimated at €306 million in 2016. They come from a variety of sources, the most important of which is the European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development, EAFRD, under which the rural development programme, RDP, is co-funded. This year it is expected receipts amounting to €239 million will come from that source. Other receipts are related to charges for inspections and certification services. There is some €15 million from the European Union to meet the veterinary costs incurred under the eradication programmes; almost €7.5 million from the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund, EMFF, and €14 million in departmental staff pension levy contributions.

Looking ahead to the remainder of this year and 2017, I am conscious that a number of challenges will be faced. They include the Brexit vote which is to take place tomorrow in the United Kingdom, the continuing poor returns in the dairy sector, price volatility in the beef and pigmeat sectors, access to finance, programme for Government commitments in respect of a new €25 million sheep scheme and the ongoing roll-out of the RDP and the seafood development programme, SDP. Some 800,000 Irish jobs are either directly or indirectly dependent on trade in the economy. Therefore, free trade agreements are important to us. With the United Kingdom as our largest trading partner, the significant potential negative implications of a Brexit for the Irish agrifood sector are clear, as evidenced by the findings of reports conducted by the ESRI, Teagasc and others.

It is difficult to predict with certainty precisely what these impacts would be. Possible consequences are foreseen in a number of areas, such as tariff and trade arrangements, EU budget standards, customs control and our fisheries sector. My Department and I are continuing to reflect on these matters and are engaged in ongoing consultations with Government colleagues to ensure there is a coherent whole-of-government approach to the issue.

Ongoing low international dairy prices are expected to have a negative effect on dairy farm incomes in 2016 following several good years. Increased price volatility has been experienced in other sectors in recent years, particularly beef, and is currently being experienced in the pigmeat sector. I have met Commissioner Hogan several times and made proposals to him in response to the current market circumstances. These include increasing the percentage of basic payments that could be paid in advance - a suggestion made by Deputy McConalogue a moment ago - introducing a further targeted aid package similar to that which was introduced last September, and increasing the volume limit for fixed-price intervention skimmed milk powder, to which the Commissioner has agreed. Other suggestions I have made include the removal of custom tariffs and anti-dumping duties on the importation of fertiliser and an effort to resolve the veterinary issues which block trade with Russia. I assure members that I intend to remain in close contact with the Commissioner on these proposals in the coming weeks.

Food Wise 2025 and the programme for a partnership Government contain prioritised actions aimed at improving access to finance as well as taxation responses to price and income volatility. Access to finance is the lifeblood of a functioning economy and is essential in helping to develop and support small and medium enterprises, SMEs, across all sectors, not least agrifood. I know from Central Bank data that the sector continues to be a significant component - almost 24% - of all new lending.

Liquidity at farm level is of concern. Last week, I met the chief executive officers of two of the main banks and urged them to be aware of the need for flexibility in the context of increased income volatility. The support of the banks is crucial, both at an individual customer level and for the sector and the economy generally. As well as flexibility during the current market difficulties, I asked the CEOs to continue to help farmers and SMEs develop and prosper. To facilitate this, I highlighted that both the availability and the cost of credit are crucial issues and that the prepared consumer food sector has identified access to finance as a particular issue.

The programme for a partnership Government provides for an allocation of €25 million to the sheep sector in 2017. This reflects the importance the Government attaches to the sector and its contribution to the rural economy. The scheme payment is based on a proposed payment of €10 per breeding ewe. The proposed scheme will be submitted to the European Commission for approval shortly as part of an amendment to the rural development programme. Consultations are ongoing between my Department and the relevant stakeholders on the details of the scheme but have not yet concluded. I am conscious that the scheme will have to take into account the range of challenges that exist in the sheep sector. Particular account will be taken of the differences in management between lowland flocks and hill flocks. It is my intention to make this scheme available to as many active sheep farmers as possible to allow the sector to avail of the opportunities identified for it in Food Wise 2025.

A key driver for increased resources in 2017 will be the rural development programme, RDP. The programme will be the subject of an affordability review later in the year by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. While my Department has not yet seen the terms of reference for the review, we will emphasise the importance of the programme to the rural economy and agriculture and seek to ensure that the maximum possible funding, in line with the agreed expenditure under the RDP measures, will be made available over the course of the programme to support investment and prioritise agricultural development and family farm incomes.

The Minister stated the proposed new sheep scheme will take into account the differences in management between lowland and hill flocks. Does this mean the scheme will be weighted towards hill farmers, in particular commonage farmers, who have much lower stocking densities?

The point I want to get across is that we acknowledge that one size will not fit all. I envisage that the scheme will provide a range of options, some of which will be appropriate to the management of hill flocks, while others will be appropriate to lowland sheep farmers.

Will the same menu be offered to both types of farmers?

A range of options will be provided, some of which will be tailored and more appropriate to the management of hill flocks, as opposed to lowland flocks. In constructing the scheme, we must acknowledge that there is less interaction with hill flocks than lowland flocks. It is envisaged that sheep farmers will be able to avail of a suite of options.

Does this mean there will be four, five or six voluntary options from which farmers will a choose a number?

Yes, a menu of options will be available.

Will any of the options be compulsory?

We are engaged in consultations. The clock is ticking because we must make a submission by 30 June. I believe it will be a menu and do not envisage that it will contain any compulsory element. However, the proposal has not yet been finalised.

On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee in its consideration of the Revised Estimate and dealing comprehensively with the questions of members. Earlier the committee agreed to invite the Minister to a meeting of the joint committee in the autumn to have an exchange of views on the emerging position in respect of what will happen in 2017. It is hoped this meeting will be arranged in advance of budget 2017. The clerk has corresponded with officials with a view to having information on the format requested provided for the joint committee by 31 July. Is that acceptable to the Minister?

We will do everything in our power to comply with the wishes of the committee.

I thank the Minister and look forward to his engagement on further issues in the period ahead.

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