SELECT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 May 2009

2009 Annual Output Statement — Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests.

Vice Chairman (Deputy Michael Kennedy)

The purpose of the meeting is to consider Vote 27 — Revised Estimates 2009 for the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and the 2009 annual output statement for that Department, and Vote 24 — Revised Estimates for the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests and the 2009 annual output statement for that office. I welcome an tAire and an tAire Stáit to present the Estimates and output statements. Under the new budgetary arrangements, the select committee must give due consideration to both annual output statements. I understand Opposition spokesmen have been briefed on the matter.

The Minister and Minister of State will make opening statements, to which the Opposition spokespersons may respond. I propose we go through each programme and the corresponding subheads and invite comment, as appropriate. It is important that we lay emphasis on outputs. For the purposes of debate, I propose that we take together programmes 1 and 3 — developing communities and rural development — and then proceed to programme 2 — tackling the problems of drug use. I understand the Minister of State will be subject to time constraints close to 4 p.m. and hope we will be able to facilitate him in that regard. After programme 2, we will proceed to programme 4 — Gaeltacht and islands development programme — and programme 5 — promotion and maintenance of the Irish language. We will then move to programme 6 — North-South co-operation. We will take those three programmes together and then proceed to programme 7 — corporate support services. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív)

Is mian liom Meastacháin 2009 do Vóta 27 na Roinne Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta a chur i láthair.

Tá a fhios ag comhaltaí an choiste go bhfuil a dtríú ráiteas táirgeachta bliantúil foilsithe ag Ranna i mbliana le cur faoi bhráid choistí an Oireachtais. Ciallaíonn sé seo, ar ndóigh, go gcuimsíonn na ráitis tuairiscí ar an méid atá bainte amach in aghaidh na dtáirgeachtaí a moladh do 2008 agus tá mé ag súil go mór le hiad seo a phlé leis an gcoiste. Tá nóta mionteagaisc sa bhformáid thraidisiúnta curtha ar fáil freisin ag mo Roinnse don choiste. Dá réir sin, níl i gceist agam ach idirghabháil ghearr a dhéanamh anois, chun am a thabhairt le staidéar níos déine a dhéanamh ar an Meastachán agus ar na gnéithe éagsúla cláir, táirgeachtaí agus mar sin de.

Mar is eol don choiste freisin, le cúrsaí eacnamaíochta mar atá siad faoi láthair, bhí cinntí deacra le déanamh againn sa cháinaisnéis dheireanach. Bhreathnaigh an Rialtas ar líon áirithe bearta chun táirgeacht fioscach stuama a chothú do 2009 agus chun bunús a chur ar fáil do chur chuige inmharthana maidir leis an staid reatha airgeadais. Ar fud an Rialtais ar fad, is é an cur chuige atá againn ná é seo a dhéanamh ar an mbealach is cothroime is féidir agus tá sé seo le feiceáil i leithdháiltí Mheastacháin Athbhreithnithe 2009 do mo Roinnse.

Ba mhaith liom tagairt ghearr a dhéanamh do roinnt de na príomhghnéithe caiteachais a bhfuil freagracht dhíreach agam astu. Ansin, ligfidh mé do mo chomhleacaí, an tAire Stáit, an Teachta John Curran, labhairt faoi ghnéithe oiriúnacha den chlár forbartha pobail, chomh maith leis an gclár chun dul i ngleic le mí-úsáid drugaí. Tabharfaidh seisean faoi Vóta 24 freisin. Clúdaíonn sé sin Oifig na dTabhartas agus na dTiomanta Déirciúla.

Léiríonn oll-leithdháileadh Mheastacháin Athbhreithnithe 2009 do mo Roinnse, €475.7 milliún, laghdú de €47.385 milliún ar an gcéad leithdháileadh measta a fógraíodh i mí Dheireadh Fómhair 2008. Baineann €11.8 milliún de laghdú mo Roinnse le caiteachas caipitil. Cuimsíonn sé seo aistriú de thart ar €2.5 milliún chuig Oifig an Aire Leanaí agus Gnóthaí Óige maidir leis an gciste áiseanna agus seirbhísí do dhaoine óga. Is é an t-iarmhéid toradh na gcoigeartaithe i gcaiteachas caipitil a rinneadh sa phacáiste bearta a d'fhógair an tAire Airgeadais ag deireadh mhí Eanáir 2009. Maidir le caiteachas reatha, tá laghdú de €35.6 milliún, a chuimsíonn aistriú de €17.4 milliún chuig Oifig an Aire Leanaí agus Gnóthaí Óige don chiste áiseanna agus seirbhísí do dhaoine óga agus aistriú de €2 mhilliún chuig an Roinn Ealaíon, Spóirt agus Turasóireachta as ciste na Gaeilge maidir leis an gcomhpháirt chaipitil de chlár forbartha réigiúnach Chomhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. Cuimsíonn an t-iarmhéid sábháilt a rinneadh, den chuid is mó, trí laghdú ar chostais riaracháin i mo Roinnse, i ngníomhaireachtaí Stáit faoina cúram agus i réimse eagras eile a mhaoinítear ón Vóta.

Maidir le clár 1, forbairt pobal, tá suas le €163.316 milliún, nó 34% d'acmhainní mo Roinnse, á leithdháileadh ar an réimse seo do 2009. Áiríonn sé seo €50.65 milliún don chlár seirbhísí pobail, chomh maith le maoiniú i dtreo chomhordú níos fearr ar na scéimeanna áitiúla agus forbartha pobail, ar a dtugtar an próiseas 'comhtháthaithe'. Tá soláthar freisin ann do chlár giarála RAPID de chuid mo Roinnse, a dhíríonn ar na ceantair uirbeacha is mó atá faoi mhíbhuntáiste sa tír, agus do chiste na gcuntas díomhaoin a théann i ngleic le míbhuntáiste eacnamaíoch agus sóisialta. Creidim go bhfuil curtha go mór ag an réimse clár do chuimsiú sóisialta, a mhaoiníonn mo Roinnse, leis na hiarrachtaí atá ar bun chun dul i ngleic le míbhuntáiste agus chun comhionannas agus cuimsiú sóisialta agus eacnamaíoch a chur chun cinn sna pobail ar a bhfuiltear ag freastal. Is í an phríomhchúis imní a bheadh agamsa ná go bhfeidhmíonn na cláir seo i gcomhar lena chéile, ní i gcomórtas lena chéile, agus go mbaintear an leas is fearr as acmhainní trí thús áite a thabhairt do sheirbhísí agus do thacaíochtaí ar an talamh seachas do chostais choimhdeacha nó d'fhorchostais.

Maidir le clár 3, forbairt tuaithe, tá €103.422 milliún ar fad leithdháilte in 2009 do réimse tacaí agus clár infheistíochta atá dírithe ar phobail tuaithe a chothú agus tacú leo. Áiríonn sé seo €16.86 milliún do CLÁR, chomh maith le maoiniú de €4.254 milliún faoin gceannteideal áineas tuaithe, a éascóidh roinnt príomhthionscnamh siúlbhealaí in 2009. Tá leithdháileadh de €27 milliún ann don chlár nua forbartha tuaithe 2007-2013.

Ta an clár á chómhaoiniú ag an Aontas Eorpach agus tá an maoiniú atá ar fáil chun gníomhaíochtaí de chineál LEADER a sholáthar méadaithe beagnach faoi thrí ó €150 milliún don tréimhse 2000-2006 go os cionn €425 milliún don tréimhse 2007-2013. Tá 36 grúpa gníomhaíochta áitiúil ar fud na tíre ag cur na gnéithe LEADER i bhfeidhm ag leibhéal áitiúil.

Tá soláthar iomlán de €49.401 milliún curtha ar fáil don scéim sóisialta tuaithe, SST, rud a chiallóidh go mbeidh an scéim rathúil tuaithe seo ábalta leanúint ar aghaidh in 2009. Le linn 2008, thug Pobal faoi anailís costais is tairbhe sóisialta an SST thar ceann mo Roinnse. Léiríonn an anailís seo go soiléir an luach ar airgead agus na buntáistí a bhaineann pobail as an scéim. Ó na tuairimí agus an t-aiseolas a fhaighim maidir leis an SST, tuigim go maith an dea-thionchar a bhíonn aige ar an talamh. É sin ráite, is mór an údar misnigh domsa a chloisteáil go mbaintear buntáistí inchainníochtaithe ar fiú €2.89 iad as gach €1 a chaitear as an státchiste. Cuirtear maoiniú ar fáil faoin teideal seo freisin do Choimisiún Forbartha an Iarthair agus do chiste infheistíochta an iarthair.

Maidir le clár 4, tá soláthar €85.918 milliún ag forbairt na Gaeltachta agus na n-oileán chun tacú le pobail Ghaeltachta agus oileán. Cuimsíonn sé seo leithdháiltí do réimse sóisialta, cultúrtha, infreastruchtúrtha agus feabhsúcháin Ghaeltachta, lena n-áirítear roinnt clár suntasach teangabhunaithe. Mar gheall ar an líon mór iarratas idir lámha agus an méid gealltanas atá tugtha cheana féin faoin scéim tithíochta Gaeltachta, chuir mo Roinnse an scéim ar fionraí ón 7 Aibreán 2009 go dtí go bhfógrófar a mhalairt. I gcás iarratais ar dheontas do theach nua, má bhí cead iomlán pleanála faighte ar nó roimh an 7 Aibreán 2009, glacfar le hiarratais suas go dtí an 15 Meitheamh 2009.

Tabharfaidh an soláthar €23.732 milliún d'fhorbairt ar na hoileáin deis do thuilleadh oibreacha móra infreastruchtúir bogadh ar aghaidh, lena n-áirítear oibreacha ar ché Chill Rónáin, an tionscadal oileáin is mó riamh i stair an Stáit, chomh maith le cur i gcrích na hoibre ar na haerstráicí ar Inis Bó Finne agus ar an gClochán. Maidir le hÚdarás na Gaeltachta, tá soláthar iomlán de €35.635 milliún, a áiríonn €15.985 milliún i gcomhair riaracháin agus clár reatha, agus €19.650 milliún do chláir chaipitil, as a gcaitear 20% ar a laghad a chaitheamh ar fhiontair theangabhunaithe.

Maidir le clár 5, cuireann cur chun cinn agus caomhnú na Gaeilge maoiniú de suas le €8.374 milliún in 2009 ar fáil chun tacú le húsáid na Gaeilge ar fud na tíre. Cuimsíonn sé seo soláthar do chiste na Gaeilge, an Coimisinéir Teanga agus an tionscnamh ardscileanna gaeilge, a bhfuil sé mar aidhm aige dlús a chur le soláthar sainchúrsaí Gaeilge tríú leibhéal chun freastal ar na riachtanas a thagann as aitheantas an Aontas Eorpach don Ghaeilge mar theanga oifigiúil oibre.

Maidir le clár 6, cuirtear soláthar de €55.102 milliún ar fáil do Chomhoibriú Thuaidh-Theas chun tacú leis an dá fhoras forfheidhmithe Thuaidh-Theas, an Foras Teanga — a áiríonn Foras na Gaeilge agus Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch — agus Uiscebhealaí Éireann. Tá leithdháileadh ann freisin do bhearta iomchuí faoi na cláir nua PEACE III agus INTERREG.

Ar deireadh, b'fhéidir gur mhaith le comhaltaí a n-aird a dhíriú ar an mheicníocht a ndéantar tagairt di i gclár 7, seirbhísí tacaíochta corparáideacha chun costais riaracháin a chur i leith clár feidhme ar bhonn pro rata. Mar a dúirt mé ag an tús, beidh mé sásta níos mó eolais a thabhairt ar aon ábhar ar mian le comhaltaí a ardú i dtaca le soláthar na Meastachán agus le tuairsciú ar tháirgeachtaí sa ráitis táirgeachta bliantúil araon. Idir an dá linn, seo chugaibh mo chomhleacaí, an tAire Stáit John Curran.

Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy John Curran)

As indicated by the Minister, I propose to speak briefly on the areas coming within my direct responsibility under programme 1 — developing communities, and programme 2 — tackling drugs misuse. I will also cover Vote 24, under which funding is provided for the charitable donations and bequests office.

Allocations under programme 1 — developing communities — include significant funding of €51.74 million for the local development social inclusion programme, LDSIP, and €20.9 million for the community development programme, CDP, and supports for certain community-based projects. As with all other Government programmes and initiatives, the amount of funding available for this programme is less in 2009 than in recent years. While this will present significant challenges in the short term, the programme will continue to support the mobilisation of local communities to tackle disadvantage through front-line interventions. The aim is to improve participation and quality of life for the most disadvantaged in our communities. Projects will continue to be supported to encourage the active voluntary participation and development of community leadership in areas of greatest need.

In the current economic environment, there is an ongoing need to ensure that resources are directed in a targeted and effective manner and that we constantly subject our activities to critical appraisal. In that way, we can ensure that those we work to assist will receive the maximum benefit. Objective, independent evaluation of our programmes, which will form part of the ongoing review process for the community and local development social inclusion programmes, will inform policy and practice and will maximise programme impact and effectiveness. The review work will also facilitate effective evaluation of the performance of individual local delivery structures with a view to creating an effective and efficient structure covering both the CDP and LDSIP.

In addition to administration savings pursued by my Department, other steps taken to ensure necessary savings were secured include the suspension, from 7 April 2009, of the scheme for community support of older people and the suspension, since end-February 2009, of the once-off grants for locally-based community groups. All valid applications on hand under these schemes will continue to be processed and approved in the normal way, subject to available resources.

With regard to charities regulation, members will be aware that the Charities Act was signed into law on 28 February 2009. I thank the members of this committee who engaged so positively during the passage of the Bill. The Department is currently preparing an implementation plan for the commencement of the Act on a phased basis. In other countries, it has taken a number of years after enactment of similar legislation for the new regulatory system for charities to be fully introduced. This is likely to be the case in Ireland also.

Turning to programme 2 — tackling problem drug use — with effect from January 2009, the young people's facilities and services fund transferred to the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs together with the associated funding. The funding available for drugs initiatives in 2009 shows an 8% decrease on the comparable 2008 allocation.

The areas of expenditure covered by the provision of €40.611 million include the 14 local and ten regional drugs task forces, the emerging needs fund, the cocaine and rehabilitation fund, the premises initiative and regional youth initiative for capital works, and the research programme of and administrative supports for the national advisory committee on drugs, NACD.

It is obviously necessary to take account of the current economic reality and of the pressure on the public finances and, against that background, priority has again been given to front-line services in the drugs area. Inevitably, some schemes will be affected. I would, however, stress that the allocation of almost €41 million in the Department's Vote is only part of an overall allocation of well over €260 million being provided by the Government, across a number of Departments and agencies, to tackle the drugs problem in 2009.

Work on completing the new national drugs strategy has been finalised and will be presented to Government for approval shortly. Members will be aware that the Government recently approved the inclusion of alcohol in a new national substance misuse strategy. The new drugs strategy will be published, therefore, as an interim strategy pending the drafting of a national substance misuse strategy.

A new steering group will be established in autumn 2009 to develop proposals for an overall substance misuse strategy that will incorporate the already agreed drugs policy element. It is expected that the new national substance misuse strategy, which will be developed jointly by the Department of Health and Children and my Department, will be in place around the end of 2010.

With regard to Vote 24, the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests are mandated, under the Charities Acts 1961 and 1973, to provide services for trustees of charities and to carry out the intentions of persons making donations and bequests to charities. An allocation of €470,000 is being made available for the office in 2008 to meet salaries and administrative costs. A separate annual output statement has been prepared by the charitable donations and bequests office, which I understand has been circulated to members.

I will be happy to provide any further information that members may request regarding the proposed Estimates provisions or the output reports coming within my areas of responsibility.

Vice Chairman

I propose to take opening statements from both Opposition spokesmen. I suggest we endeavour to keep these within five minutes. Questions will be allowed later and we will just have the opening statements now.

Deputy Michael Ring

I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State and their officials. This is the most important Estimates meeting we have had in the past 12 years, since Fianna Fáil, now in government with the Green Party, came into government. This is the first year Ministers have had to make real choices about schemes. From what I have seen already, I am disappointed with both the Minister and Minister of State with regard to the overall budgets as cutbacks are being made in most of the programmes.

It seems it is now Government policy to attack the most vulnerable in society. I was disappointed last week to see the first attack being made on the community support scheme for older people whereby people in Gaeltacht areas were getting grants for windows and doors to keep their houses in order and keep them warm. I am surprised the Minister, as somebody who lives in a rural area in the Gaeltacht in the west of Ireland and who is aware of the kind of weather we have, made the first attack on the one grant that helps elderly people keep their homes warm.

In these economic times, every euro must be accounted for. I and Deputies Wall and McGinley and other colleagues will go through these Estimates thoroughly and in the next few months we will make the Minister and the Department accountable. There is great concern among people and questions are being asked about the funding being spent by the Department and the duplication of organisations drawing down funding. There are companies within companies drawing down funding, but the funding is not going where it is intended to go. There is great concern about duplication and we need to deal with that issue urgently. We must stop funding being drawn down by similar groups that are setting up organisations within organisations. We must ensure this much-needed money is spent in the right quarters.

The Minister and Minister of State face huge challenges. I have often made this comment behind the Minister's back, but I will say it to his face now. I believe the Department does more for rural people than the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Transport and others, because we in rural Ireland find it difficult to get funding from those Departments, for example, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I do not say that because it is run by a Minister from the Green Party, as it was just as difficult to get money from previous Ministers.

Take the road into Erris as an example. There is just one road into Erris and in a few months gas from our great natural resource will be taking that route. However, every day lorries fail on that road. The funding for that road comes from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, not the Department of Transport. We could also take the national primary road from Longford to Castlebar as an example. We have Allergan ——

Vice Chairman

The Deputy has been speaking for four minutes. I suggest he should confine himself to the topic under discussion today.

Deputy Michael Ring

I do not want to get into a row with the Vice Chairman, but if he wants a row, we will be here until tomorrow. I am not going to have a row. I did not interrupt the Minister or Minister of State and I will have my say in the committee as spokesman for Fine Gael or there will be no meeting.

Vice Chairman

I have no problem, but ——

Deputy Michael Ring

The Vice Chairman has put me off my flow.

Vice Chairman

I have no intention of stopping the Deputy speaking but we are talking about relevancy.

Deputy Michael Ring

We are talking about rural Ireland about which the Vice Chairman knows nothing.

Vice Chairman

My seed breeding generation came from a rural area.

Deputy Michael Ring

The Vice Chairman knows nothing about it.

Vice Chairman

I know plenty.

Deputy Michael Ring

Does the Vice Chairman want to have a row about the matter? I have been a member of this committee for five years and have never had a row with any Chairman. I was allowed to express my view on the Estimates. I did not interrupt the two previous speakers——

Vice Chairman

I ask the Deputy to listen to what I am saying. I have no intention of stopping him. If we want to stay here until tomorrow, that is fine; I will be here or some other person in the Chair will. I am just asking the Deputy to stick to the programme before us. If he wants to have the Minister for Transport here, by all means we will have him in but today we are dealing with issues on which the Minister and the Minister of State have given their reports. Will the Deputy confine his comments to——

Deputy Michael Ring

I did not like the comments about the Government but we will not get into an argument. I ask the Vice Chairman to allow me to continue.

Vice Chairman

I ask the Deputy to stick to the programme.

Deputy Michael Ring

Excuse me, but if the Vice Chairman understood the Estimates and what the programme was about, he would know that the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, has more responsibility for Gaeltacht roads and has provided more funding in Gaeltacht areas than the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. If the Vice Chairman does not understand this, it is included in the CLÁR programme.

Vice Chairman

I clearly understand the point being made by the Deputy. I am just saying today's business deals with specific issues. If we want to talk about roads, we can do so on another day. That is all I am asking.

Deputy Michael Ring

I thank the Vice Chairman and if he does not mind, I will continue. I was discussing roads. The Gaeltacht area of Erris will have our largest natural resource, yet we do not have a proper road there. The Minister has a challenge on his hands to maintain and retain the roads and services that we have. In recent years, particularly this past year, we have had attacks on rural post offices, rural transport, rural Garda stations and public telephones, as well as on rural communities in the way planning laws deal with people. It is the Minister's job to make sure the people affected can continue to live in rural areas and have the same — or almost the same — level of service as their counterparts living in towns.

With regard to the Leader programme, no later than this week I received a reply from a Leader company telling me that it did not know how to spend the money available. Recently, I saw an advertisement in a newspaper about the Leader programme established by the Minister in my county. It will have three offices in three towns. I know the Minister has no overall responsibility for this but there should be some guidelines from the Minister and the Department that this public wastage must stop. These three offices must be staffed at a cost to the Irish and European taxpayer from money we want to spend to create jobs and keep people working in the regions. This nonsense must stop. I hope that if the facilities or companies for which European and Exchequer moneys are paid out under the Leader programme do not last, the State resources will be protected. I do not want to see what is happening where a number of people involved in Leader programmes have held onto the resources and facilities paid for from taxpayer's money. We will return to this point.

Rural life represents a challenge for the Minister, the Department and me. Today I say to the Minister that whatever funding he can draw down and spend in rural areas is badly wanted. I am disappointed to see a major cutback in funding for the islands. After all the excellent work done by the Minister, I am sorry to see that funding being cut. We will return to this point when we deal with the relevant programme. In recent years we had money and there was no great difficulty in spending it. The point I want to make to the Minister and his officials is that the money we have available must be best spent in the areas in which it is needed. We must stop duplication and waste.

Deputy Jack Wall

I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and their staff. I thank the Minister for arranging to brief us this morning. It is always important to have such interaction. I have been a member of this committee for ten years and there has always been favourable interaction with no hostility from either side when trying to reach a position. The combination of both sides working together for the betterment of everyone has been helped by the Chairman. I, therefore, reject the interjection made by the Vice Chairman when Deputy Ring was speaking. That is not what this is about. The committee has worked for the benefit of everyone during the years without any recriminations. It was a bad start for the Vice Chairman and I hope it will not happen again.

Vice Chairman

It is not my intention to stymie debate. I just want to keep the issues relevant.

Deputy Michael Ring

The Vice Chairman cut me off.

Deputy Jack Wall

I said what I said and will not say any more about the matter.

To a degree, Deputy Ring put his finger on the role of the Minister. If one is from a rural community and sees what is happening in that community, one can see the importance of the positions held by the Minister and the Minister of State. The position of the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, is important in the overall context of the development of rural Ireland and its communities; the Gaeltacht, the islands and the Irish language; and the development of the Good Friday Agreement through North South co-operation, a major issue for many.

With regard to the position of the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, I am sure that anyone here from a rural area sees the problems every rural community has with drugs. We have this idea, perhaps from the media, that the problem is confined to Dublin, Cork and, to a very unfortunate degree, Limerick, but this is not the real story, as the Minister of State knows as well as I do, which is why it is so important that in examining the issue we try to work together. Any time the Minister and the Minister of State have been asked to come before the committee they have done so and such interaction is vital. The joint committee hears a far greater range of views on various topics affecting rural Ireland.

These matters are of great concern to us all. We see a new Ireland in "urban rural Ireland", for want of a better phrase, especially in my constituency where a large number of people have moved from the cities to live in rural Ireland. I am sure Deputy White would agree. This gives a whole new perspective to a rural town. Three or four years ago the population of Athy, where I live, was 5,000. It is now nearly 10,000 and most of the people concerned, non-nationals and nationals, have moved from the city and areas adjacent to it for housing. We must examine how we can bring these societies together. This is part of the community aspect I hope to see developed.

The pressure exerted by the Garda in major cities brings the threat of drugs because we see the soft option being taken by those plying the trade who move to big towns to the detriment of the locals. In examining policy and introducing new objectives we need to consider not only the big hits made by the Garda but also those suffering now, because if we do not do so, they will take up the positions of those arrested in the big hits. We see the Garda arresting people 40 or 50 miles from Dublin because they are moving out. It is a major problem. We will discuss other aspects as we proceed.

In respect of programme 1, the Minister stated his key concern was to ensure those involved in programmes co-operated rather than competed. A number of organisations have raised this issue with me. I told the Minister's officials that the inclusion of certain CDPs with other groups was causing problems. What are his views on this?

I ask the Minister to reconsider the provision in programme 4 in respect of new house grant applications for which planning permission was received by 7 April because those who failed to receive permission had an expectation that they would receive the grant. Those who received permission after 7 April should be considered favourably if their applications were made before that date. I would feel hard done by if I received planning permission only to be refused a grant.

On the transfer of funding to the Office of the Minister for Children, is it a counter payment or will it require a reduction when it arrives? Will it allow the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children to spend €2.5 million or will the funding available to him be restricted?

Vice Chairman

Given the time constraints on the Minister of State, I propose that questions on the drugs issue be taken first.

Deputy Michael Ring

If I wanted to be awkward, I would put the matter to a vote.

Vice Chairman

I proposed such an approach at the start of the meeting.

Deputy Michael Ring

No, the Chairman proposed that we take programmes 1 and 3 first.

Vice Chairman

I proposed that we take programmes 1 and 3 together.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Programmes 1 and 3 encompass issues of concern to the Minister of State. The Gaeltacht, the islands and North-South co-operation are my exclusive responsibility.

Vice Chairman

We will take programmes 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

Deputy Michael Ring

We will take 1 and 3 as agreed or we will have to vote.

Vice Chairman

Does the Deputy have questions on these programmes? Programme 1 covers community and voluntary programmes, community services programmes, local development inclusion programmes, community development projects, as well as RAPID and dormant account funding. Programme 3 pertains to rural development and covers the Leader programme, the western investment fund, the rural social scheme, CLÁR and rural development schemes.

Deputy Jack Wall

The community scheme for older people comes within the scope of programme 1. I possibly raised this issue too forcefully during our last session but of all the cuts made, this is the worst. There is no logic to it. Older people living in isolated areas will be badly affected. Given the limited amount of money that will be saved, I fail to understand the reason for it. I recall speaking about the scheme on previous occasions and singing the praises of the Minister for funding it. I would have no problem in looking beyond the political sphere in this regard. Money was paid to 10,000 senior citizens in its first year and 11,500 in the second. The scheme was a winner from day one. It is not logical to remove protections from senior citizens for the sake of €4.5 million. I urge the Minister to reconsider his decision. The scheme also created employment for contractors who were able to secure work from people who saw their vans and wanted similar work to be carried out, even though they were not in receipt of grants. This is important in the light of the crisis affecting the building industry. I have raised similar issues with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government regarding disabled person's grants. I have accused the Minister of hiding behind groups but perhaps his interest lay in the appropriate areas. I apologise if I offended him but I was upset at the time.

Deputy Michael Ring

I concur with Deputy Wall. When the Minister gave his commitment to the Dáil that the scheme would be reviewed, I expressed the hope he was not engaging in a local and European elections scam. This is an important scheme and while the Department should deal with instances of abuse, the scheme has brought great benefits to recipients. I ask the Minister to confirm that he is reviewing rather than abolishing the scheme. If difficulties arise, let us deal with them. One week after he grant-aided projects, he suspended the scheme. That indicates the Department does not know what is happening.

In regard to the sum of €115 million spent on the last Leader programme, will the Minister report on the number of jobs created? What has he done about the assets owned by companies funded by the State? What is he doing about duplication? People living in rural and Gaeltacht areas are looking for one-stop shops. When will we replace the cluster of organisations with one-stop shops in order that supports can be provided under the Leader and other programmes from the same office?

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I support my colleagues, Deputies Wall and Ring, in regard to the community scheme for older people. As a Deputy who represents a rural constituency, I am heartened to learn that the Minister has entered into a consultation process with interested groups. However, I cannot underestimate the value of the scheme to the people of rural Ireland. My mother who lives in isolation experienced seven break-ins in her 88th year and her dog was drugged. I live 90 miles away from her and my brother and sisters live abroad but we were pleased when she received her pendant because she would be able to protect herself and her friends.

My constituents in Carlow-Kilkenny have begged me, for a small amount of money, to have the scheme restored. I ask the Minister, wherever he can find the euro needed, to do it. Our old people worked hard when times were hard. They did not benefit from the Celtic tiger. We should look after them and others like them to ensure they feel safe in their homes because of the locks on the doors, the bolts on their windows and pendants around their necks. It is a simple thing. It is a small amount of money in the scheme of things. I support the Minister in having to find good housekeeping methods. We all know we are in tough times, but if he could restore this one scheme, it would be of immense benefit to people living in rural Ireland. It would provide an immense feeling of well-being and mental support for people, not just for my mother or constituency, but right down to Blacksod Bay, County Donegal, any part of County Kerry, wherever there is not a garda on the beat, where there are no communities and people live in isolation. These are tough times and we have to cut funding but I am heartened by the Minister saying it will be only temporarily suspended. I ask him to have it restored as soon as possible.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

I too thank the Minister and the Minister of State for their presentations. We look forward to the publication of the new drugs strategy. The Minister, Deputy Ó Cúiv, mentioned a substance misuse strategy. Given that the inclusion of alcohol in the drugs strategy has been accepted, are we starting a new process, or is it based on the strategy put together in the last 18 months? How will it work?

I have seen at first hand the significant difference the RAPID programme makes, particularly to disadvantaged communities. Has there been much progress in allocating funds for CCTV programmes? It is a top-up fund with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Have there been many applications and are they being processed quickly? Will the Minister update us on the matter?

The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has managed to maintain the services, despite the 8% reduction in budgets. Every effort is being made to maintain the various projects at ground level, particularly in respect of drug treatment and counselling. My experience is in the north inner city where hundreds of project workers are on the ground every day of the week. The Department has been endeavouring to maintain these services at ground level and I urge it to continue to maintain front line services as much as possible.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I will leave the answer to the question on the community support scheme to the Minister of State, Deputy Curran.

I agree with Deputy Ring that we have to tackle duplication in the Leader programme. As he knows, we have gone from having approximately 90 companies delivering Leader partnership services throughout the country to 55. The idea was to get exactly where one wanted to be through the one-stop-shop approach. Fine Gael proposes to go one step further and provide for this through the local authorities.

Deputy Michael Ring

Not quite. I will explain it to the Minister later.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is not my reading of what the party has written. The Deputy's party wants to abolish the Department. It states, "Fine Gael will review the viability of——"

Deputy Michael Ring

On a point of order, I did not say that. If the Minister's officials are not reading the programme, the Minister should read it correctly.

Vice Chairman

I will allow the Deputy to come back in but will he let the Minister respond first?

Deputy Michael Ring

I cannot have this on the record.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I quote from Fine Gael's 2009 Government policy:

The Department was established in 2002 after it evolved from the old Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. One of its main functions is to allocate funds to many of the local agencies that are proposed in this document to be merged with local government. Following these mergers the Department will lose much of its primary mission. Fine Gael will review the viability of the Department at this stage to assess whether to transfer other responsibilities from other Government Departments to it or to possibly wind down the Department over a period of time.

That is included in Fine Gael's programme.

Deputy Michael Ring

No. We are reviewing it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is a direct quote.

Deputy Michael Ring

When I am finished with the Minister in the next year, he will know why we are reviewing it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I can understand the tidy mind approach of merging it with local government. However, I am not convinced that the programmes we deliver could be delivered through local government because local government is becoming too multifunctional. One could say I am being a little inconsistent in that, as the Deputy knows, I have been pursuing a policy that we amalgamate Meitheal Forbatha na Gaeltachta, MFG, and Údarás na Gaeltachta. The reason is that the rural social scheme, RSS, is run by MFG in parts of the Gaeltacht and Údarás na Gaeltachta in others. If Údarás na Gaeltachta can do it competently in one half of the Gaeltacht, I do not see why it cannot do it in the whole Gaeltacht. Similarly, Údarás na Gaeltachta has a serious remit on job creation. I do not see why there are two job creation agencies in the Gaeltacht, one running the Leader programme and Údarás na Gaeltachta dealing with small industries, etc. Údarás na Gaeltachta was established to be a community development organisation, with a remit very similar to that of MFG. It does social economy work; therefore, the match is very good. I am open to new ideas and willing to examine anything, but I am not convinced that Fine Gael is correct in proposing a merger with local government. Deputy Ring mentioned rural development. The idea of having a Department with a remit encompassing community aspects and being geographic rather than functional has merit. With a functional approach, encompassing areas such as health and education, certain communities such as island or isolated rural communities always lag behind. I take on board the praise the Deputy extended to the Department on what it had done for rural policy. If one does it all in a vertical slice — agriculture, education, health and so on — the more isolated areas can suffer. This also applies to urban deprived areas which are often cut away from the mainstream in an incredible way. They are often very near but might as well be located on the moon in terms of the connection with the mainstream. It is similar in the case of some of the more rural communities. I would not go along, therefore, with the idea of abolishing the Department because quietly on the ground it does much work that otherwise would not be done.

I gave an answer to a parliamentary question on the assets and want reiterate the basic principle. If money is given to any organisation to be spent on assets and it sells these assets within a certain timeframe, a rebate is owed to the State. If it keeps the money beyond that timeframe, no rebate is owed. If I give a factory a grant, after a certain number of years, the grant is amortised and no rebate is due to the State. The same applies in this case. There is due diligence in the case of some of the companies to which I think Deputy Ring refers to ensure all the assets belonging to the State go to it. Under the Leader programme, it is not allowed to use EU or Exchequer funds for purposes related to the premises of Leader local action groups. One cannot use Leader funding to buy a premises.

Deputy Michael Ring

May I ask a question? I apologise for interrupting.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Yes, we want to tease this one out.

Vice Chairman

I will give Deputy Ring the opportunity, as he obviously has more than one question.

Deputy Michael Ring

I have just one question on that point. The Minister has said this to me before but I want to ask now for my information. Leader companies are establishing other companies and giving each other grant aid but it is still State money.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is a hard one to deal with in regard to the rules. We must be allowed under the Leader programme, by its nature, to give grants. They are not huge, and in the last programme the biggest grant was €100,000. I heard about one company which reputedly gave 65% of the money out within the town in which it had its headquarters. The Deputy and I know which town that is.

Deputy Michael Ring

Yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There has been an inference regarding company subscriptions. There are very strict rules about the way a board is meant to operate. One of the reasons I reformed the boards and laid down a centralised method of election was to ensure that a board would be broadly representative and there would be good and strong agency representation on the boards. In other words there would be a county manager's representative, State agents and so on. Social partners would be involved, as well as community and voluntary representatives around the county, so it could not become concentrated, as it is alleged happened in the past.

As far as I can structure it, the type of operation intimated by the Deputy cannot happen. That is one of the reasons I was absolutely inflexible in regard to the makeup of the board. I heard stories and wanted to ensure that when I got the opportunity, I could change the process. I had to wait until the end of the previous programme as I had no input into its structures.

Under the local development social inclusion programme, there are specific rules with regard to premises. Permission must be obtained from Pobail and so on. I will give a copy of the brief I have to the Deputy to save us going into too much detail.

I share the Deputy's concern about this issue. I cannot turn back the clock if people manage to legitimately act in a way that was not in the spirit intended. In as much as anybody can do so, I have closed doors in the new structures to this ever happening again. This is done through the make-up of the board and structuring of the rules and so on.

We face the other side of the coin as Ministers and we must act in a way that does not make the programme so bureaucratic and inflexible that the genuine applicant cannot get the money. In other words, in trying to deter the people who might not act in a way we want on one hand, we should not create a position where the genuine punter who wants to develop an industry, for example, cannot get the money because the rules are so inflexible.

Ultimately, we must put rules in place because people do not understand, in the first instance, what I would term "public obligation". There are many things which might be legally possible in our lives that we would not act on because we do not believe they are right. Perhaps one of the problems in this country is that the sense of what is acceptable behaviour, rather than legally possible, has gone out the window.

Approximately 90% of people in the community operate on the basis that even if an act was legal, it might not be carried out because it would not be right. There is always a minority that would think otherwise. My colleague will deal with the CSOP and there is also a dilemma in that respect concerning those who work the scheme on a community basis, as it was designed, and those who may see an angle that could be exploited.

Deputy John Curran

I hope I understood Deputy Wall's question concerning the CSOP correctly but if I have not, he may speak to me afterwards. He mentioned moneys transferred from our Department to the Office of the Minister for Children. I believe the Deputy is referring to the young people's facilities and services fund, which is worth approximately €17.3 million on the current side, with €2.5 million on the capital side. That is gone from our Vote at this point.

Deputy Jack Wall

I understand that. Will it have the same value or will it be reduced?

Deputy John Curran

No. The figures are €17.361 million on the current side and €2.509 million on the capital side. It has not gone into a general pool and is still the young people's facilities and services fund.

I have provided answers in the Dáil with regard to the CSOP and alarms. I know the value of this scheme. Deputy Ring may think I am just a Dublin person but all my extended family live in rural areas, so I spend much time outside Dublin. I have seen the benefit of the scheme. It would be lovely to sit here like Pat Kenny with one for everybody in the audience but we are faced with a budgetary problem; when there are scarce or limited resources, it is important they are targeted well.

I apologise if there was any confusion. We had applications in hand and we processed them. We will continue to deal with them. Even while the scheme is suspended, there may be a further allocation as those we have on hand are being dealt with.

To be very specific, I would not go through a review process if I did not intend having a scheme but this must be sustainable over a longer period. I met with groups such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and Age Action Ireland and they recognised the importance of ensuring that the scheme is sustainable.

Many Members have spoken to me privately or to the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, regarding concerns about the scheme. The suspension and review of the scheme will be short and I aim to complete the review by September. Most of the members would agree that little gets done in August, so it is a short intervening period, and we aim to open the scheme again to applications directly after the review.

Areas of concern to be addressed include eligibility, as we note some parts of the country, for example, may not be well represented because of the community base and groups which exist. It is fine to give out a grant of €300 to buy a pendant but the cost of monitoring ranges from €50 to €130, and I would like to see that addressed. The people in receipt of the grant are those who can least afford expense. There is no point in giving a person a €300 pendant only for them to be caught for €130 elsewhere. Those are the issues which will be in the mix of the review.

We aim to establish the scheme again after the review and we are working towards completing that by September. Where there are finite resources if we took people on a first come, first served basis, we would not be serving those who are ill-equipped or do not have the resources to get such services. We are committed to the matter and I have outlined the timeframe we are working towards.

Questions were raised regarding the drugs strategy but I do not know if the committee wants me to deal with them now or later.

Vice Chairman

We will deal with it separately when we come to that programme.

Deputy Michael Ring

We will not hold up the Minister of State.

Vice Chairman

I speak for everyone here in saying the review of the CSOP scheme is welcome and the Minister of State's commitment to come back with proposals in September is welcome across the Houses.

Deputy Michael Ring

As somebody on the Front Bench, I am quite clear about what Fine Gael is proposing. There was €17 million in the MFG scheme. The Fine Gael proposal is very simple. We will reform local government, as the issue arises on every doorstep. Locally elected representatives have no power, so it must be returned to them. As part of that, we would look at the Minister's Department to consider schemes where local authorities can act without duplication.

As a rural person, with Deputy McGinley, I would not be part of a Fine Gael Government that would abolish this Department. It has done more than the Departments dealing with the environment and transport. It is the best of the Departments for us as there are many projects which would have never happened if it did not exist.

The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs would not be in existence today were it not for former Deputy Donal Carey. The Minister cannot deny that former Taoiseach John Bruton set up the Department while in government. Former Deputy Carey had a short time there but it was his brainchild, although I give the Minister credit for developing it. The Minister should not tell us Fine Gael was opposed to rural development as we started it. The Minister has often admitted it himself.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No, I have not. Bring back Donal Carey.

Deputy Michael Ring

No, I will be taking his place, if the Minister does not mind.

I would like to ask the Minister one question and then I will finish with the rural development end of things. Is the Minister in discussion with his own Department and his colleagues in Cabinet on the issue of rural services? That is what is being talked about in the community, and the Minister is in charge of community, rural and Gaeltacht affairs. I have raised this with the Minister previously during Question Time.

Before I forget about the alarm scheme, I welcome what the Minister has said on this. I agree with Deputy White in that it is only when one goes around the rural areas and sees elderly people that one realises its value. I met a woman in an isolated rural area the other day who was 93 years of age and she said the pendant was what kept her alive.

I want the Minister to clear out the abuses. If there are abuses in that scheme or any scheme they should be got rid of, but we should not abolish a scheme that is working. I accept what the Minister has said today.

To return to my earlier point, is the Minister in discussion with his colleagues about public services such as post offices, rural transport, Garda stations and public telephones? These services should be protected in rural Ireland.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

On the issue of services, I am reviewing the White Paper, although I do not intend to write another one, to see what is done and what needs to be done. As the Deputy knows, the challenges are constantly changing. As I have said time and again, rural development must be about creating the future, not defending a past that is long gone. I will give a simple example. One day people who were involved in the western rail corridor came to me with a suggestion that we get second hand rails and lay them down between Athenry and Ennis. I said if we were going to do it we should do it right. We should provide continuous welded rail and modern trains because there is no reason for rural Ireland to have a train that only goes at 20 miles per hour. Nobody would use it and it would be a total waste of money. Thankfully, we are doing it the right way.

Similarly, I have said time and again that the idea that it is sustainable to keep a post office that in the last ten years has not had a turnover of more than €5,000 or €10,000 a year is not doing a great service to rural Ireland. Therefore, we must change when people change. Many people in rural Ireland will tell one that the ATM, for example, is more important than some post office services. These things change. We must consider what is sustainable and we must change the range of services to provide services that people want today. One group in rural Ireland that strikes me as having been incredibly successful in the past 20 years is the credit unions, which are all around the country providing services the likes of which were not available 20 years ago. The reason is that these services are now relevant.

We must consider all these services and provide all sorts of new services, but let us provide the services that people really want and not some nostalgic view of rural Ireland, protecting things that people have moved away from. They are the kinds of services that catch the imagination of the media and the public but they are not the ones the people I know in rural Ireland are worried about. What they want is a service for 2009. We should be conscious of that.

I do not know where Deputy Ring is coming from today. The Fine Gael document on local government reform states:

Fine Gael will administer all partnership and area based organisations from the Local Authority system as soon as practically possible. ... Fine Gael will review the viability of Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs following the merging of local agencies into Local Government.

Unfortunately, as has been rightly pointed out, my work and that of former Deputy Carey is being rapidly undone. I do not care what reorganisation of local government takes place; it would create an organisation of a size that would be totally unwieldy and would not serve the people, although I am in favour of simplification and so on. We can agree to differ on this issue. When it had done all it intended to do, Fine Gael would be left with such a weakened Department that all the work it has been praising will not be possible any more. It will then be told by the rationalisers that the funding for the rural development programme — in other words, the Leader programme — and for the LDSIP should go to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I am not in any way against that Department, but there are so many other things it should be doing, such as building sewerage and water schemes and running the fire brigade and local services, that it has enough to be going on with.

What Fine Gael would find if it went down this route — this is a point worthy of debate — is that these programmes would be assigned to a Minister of State in an expanded Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The senior Minister would obviously take responsibility for the environmental issues, the major housing issues and so on, and once again the voices of those within vulnerable communities would be silenced at the Cabinet table. There would be nobody to advocate for all these people because they are not often in the limelight and do not control the organs of the media. The RAPID communities, the island communities, the Gaeltacht communities — they would all be forgotten about in that scenario. Therefore, I believe Fine Gael is calling this one wrongly.

Deputy Jack Wall

With regard to the community development programme, there is concern among people who feel the cutbacks are too severe. They are being asked to amalgamate to a degree with the Leader programme and others, and that in itself is creating problems. Has the Department picked up on this, or is it something that is happening at ground level and has not come within the remit of the Department? I got a call from a person in Donegal who was very concerned about the programmes in that area. He felt they would be merged with the Leader programmes and that this would cause problems within each group.

Deputy John Curran

I will answer this as best I can. There are around 180 community development programmes of various types around the country. Yes, cuts to individual CDPs are significant this year, at around 12%. I have looked at the accounts of some CDPs and the manner in which they deal with them, because as a public representative I had the opportunity to do so, and I saw figures such as €5,000 being spent to audit relatively small accounts. Thus, there is scope for some of the money to be saved through better practices and so on.

A range of programmes are being supported around the country, including CDPs, partnerships, projects under drugs task forces and so on. However, there is obviously the question of how we align these to ensure, as Deputy Ring said, that we prevent duplication and ensure people are working in a cohesive way. For example, we should avoid renting extra premises where possible. The CDP projects are running as individual entities, but that is not to say there should not be a view on collaborative working, although they should not lose their individual identities. Where we have an area with a partnership company and multiple CDPs, we must ensure we avoid the duplication of which Deputy Ring spoke.

I agree with Deputy Ring's points in this regard. He used some great words that I use in my office all the time. Money must be best spent and we must measure effectiveness. We talk about how much money is spent, but it is not just about outputs; it is about effectiveness. I could have been sitting over there when the Deputy was saying those words. That is the real challenge. In the current year the programme has received cuts, and I understand this is proving difficult, but we must move forward. I attended the annual conference of the community and voluntary umbrella group, The Wheel, yesterday. The bodies involved recognise that the community and voluntary sector must work in a collaborative way, particularly where there is less funding and they are trying to maintain front line services in a targeted way. We are trying to make as many of the cuts as possible at a general administrative level rather than in front line services.

Vice Chairman

Can we agree the outputs for programmes 1 and 3?

Deputy Michael Ring

Before we do that, I have one more question for the Minister. What is the updated position on the rural transport review? This is particularly relevant now that Bus Éireann has announced it is to lose 52 routes and 150 buses, which will have an awful effect on rural Ireland. What is happening in this regard?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

We carried out the review. Concerning the wider issue we are examining, namely, an overview of rural development, my view is that the scheme, as operated, was effective. There seems to have been a great variation in the cost per passenger carried and that offers opportunities. It should be incorporated into the wider rural transport scheme. Why should we have two schemes in two Departments? Obviously, it would not be within the financial resources of my Department to extend this programme nationwide. It was run as a pilot and we have the results, which we have made available to my colleague in the Department of Transport. We must see how this stitches into the rural transport review. I am aware also of what Bus Éireann has decided and I have concerns about that.

Once again, the issue is whether there should be synergies to provide more comprehensive rural transport. I feel strongly about that. Rather than have each group tendering separately, with one tender for the night scheme and another for the day, one for the school bus scheme, another for all the disability groups and one for the HSE to bring people to hospital, could we not have one decent tender and have real competition in the market? There is a lot to be won in providing comprehensive services. I know my colleague in the Department of Transport is looking at that strategy in a single area to discover whether pulling all these disparate services together can work. That is exactly what the Deputy suggested, cutting out duplication and making sure the assets provided are put to full use. These might be private assets such as buses that are in work all the time or public assets such as funded community transport. I hope to come to a conclusion on this matter in the coming months. To a point, I am caught between a rock and a hard place. We looked at and reviewed the night-time service, which was good. I do not have the resources to go nationwide and I believe the only way of doing that is in the context of the wider rural transport scheme in the Department of Transport. This was always a pilot scheme.

Vice Chairman

Is it agreed to note programmes 1 and 3? Agreed.

We move now to programme 2, namely, tackling the drugs problem. This concerns a drugs initiative and a young people's facilities and services fund. Are there questions?

Deputy John Curran

Does the Vice Chairman mean additional questions?

Vice Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Michael Ring

When will the Minister of State announce the strategy? Some of the groups involved recently had meetings with him. Did he iron out the problems they had? They were concerned about some of the proposals in the new strategy.

Deputy John Curran

I will deal with these matters as best I can in the order in which they came. I return to Deputy Jack Wall's contribution, which was both question and statement, and was important. The original drugs strategy for the period 2001-08 effectively evolved from a heroin problem in disadvantaged areas of Dublin. The Deputy is right that in the interim drugs have become a national issue and the new national drugs strategy will reflect this. Unlike the first strategy which focused to a great degree on heroin, the new strategy recognises other issues such as polydrugs, the effects of alcohol etc. In that regard the Government made a decision to have a joint drugs and alcohol, or substance misuse, strategy.

Deputy Brady is not present but he asked what this would mean. It also ties in with one of Deputy Ring's questions. I hope to bring the new strategy to Government very shortly, within a few weeks — I do not have an exact date. I wish to clarify this matter as simply as possible. The new strategy that will go to Government will be a drugs strategy. There is a provision within it which states that the Government made a decision to have a joint strategy. In September 2009 we will establish a steering committee to give effect to that Government decision, namely, to merge the issue of alcohol into the drugs strategy within a 12-month period and then have a joint substance misuse strategy. Otherwise there would be a void for a considerable period which is not desirable. Therefore, an interim drugs-only strategy will go to Government and in September we will establish a new steering group to give effect to the Government decision to have a national drugs and alcohol or substance misuse strategy. I hope that clarifies the matter.

Deputy Ring specifically mentioned the various concerns which groups have and I have met a number of them. Their concerns fall into two categories. One relates to the new structures in which we will find ourselves. This became very obvious and some of the community groups expressed concern about our running a national drugs strategy team, NDST, or drugs strategy unit, DSU, having a Minister of State with particular responsibility and having an overarching interdepartmental committee on drugs, IDG. There was a great deal of duplication and there were issues of governance. The Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts expressed concern. In an effort to address those concerns it was agreed that we would proceed with a single unified office, effectively bringing together the NDST, the DSU and so forth. That is in place but as an interim arrangement because we do not have a Government decision on the strategy. I will be very clear on this matter. The community sector is engaged in this process and is actively participating. We had our first management advisory committee meeting which was attended by community representatives who participated.

The other concerns that people have relate to the reduced amount of funding this year and the drugs strategy is no different from any other programme in this situation. Different task forces and projects must make difficult decisions. They have concerns and that is an ongoing issue. However, the community and voluntary sectors are all very much engaged in this process and they also welcome the fact that the Government has made the decision. Many of the members present advocated that we should make such a decision that alcohol be included in the new strategy.

Deputy Michael Ring

With regard to rehabilitation, are any projects to go ahead this year? People are looking for treatment and the Minister of State will know there are very few treatment beds in rural areas. What is available is in the cities and even those are under pressure.

I am glad the Minister of State said that an interim strategy is up and running and will be in place. It would be outrageous if we had a situation where nothing was being done, especially with the crisis in drugs in this country. This concerns, first, the amount of drugs coming into the country, second, the numbers of people affected by drugs, which was recently reported upon, and, third, that resources are being taken away from the Minister of State, the Garda and relevant HSE offices. The Minister of State mentioned that there was to be an office for the Minister of State with responsibility for drugs. With the climate we have now, the Minister of State knows, as I do, that the Government will not agree to have more offices and additional people working in them. That will not happen, but we must target the drugs epidemic in the country. There certainly is an epidemic and we can see it.

Deputy White mentioned her mother and other people who are in the same situation. Many robberies involve people who rob to feed their drug habits. There is a very serious problem abroad and we need all the resources and all the back-up of the State, with every section of the State pulling together. I would have no problem with an agency within the existing one. This need not be a new agency just one which would take overall responsibility. I said this to the Minister of State during Question Time. It is wrong that the Department of Health and Children, the Minister of State's Department and the Garda have roles but there is nobody to pull the whole strategy together. That is what is very badly needed.

Deputy John Curran

The establishment of a master strategy for drugs does not involve the recruitment of additional staff but means doing things a little differently while working within existing resources. The Deputy is correct. The strategy is to strengthen that partnership approach and envisages having staff from Departments such as Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and so forth to make that strategy work effectively. That is the overview. It does not mean recruiting new staff but that staff who work in my Department in what was the old DSU and staff who were engaged with the NDST as liaison officers from other Departments will engage together in one office in co-ordination and co-operation rather than having people working in isolation. The new strategy is very clear on that and therefore I do not see it being a problem. It is not a question of additional resources but of using existing resources in a different way. In any of the decisions we make, we have to be conscious of the resources available to us.

I have been in this job for about a year and I have had an opportunity to travel around the country. Often, people will refer to the number of beds available for rehabilitation and so forth. Depending on who one is and where one comes from, there are different views on what rehabilitation involve. Some people have the view that it may not always be best to have residential rehabilitation and that rehabilitation in the community can be better for some people, for a whole range of reasons.

In terms of beds and residential rehabilitation, frequently we look to what is provided by the HSE. Running in parallel to this is the voluntary sector, which is significantly involved in residential rehabilitation and many of the rehabilitation programmes run by it have evolved from traditional alcohol rehabilitation centres. Hope House in Foxford, Cuan Mhuire and other organisations are now providing rehabilitation. They are finding we do not simply have a drug or alcohol problem, but, in many cases, there are polydrug problems.

We recently appointed a national rehabilitation co-ordinator and one of the first things I asked him to do was a comprehensive review and audit of all facilities, not just those within the statutory services but also those within voluntary services because one of the concerns we have is that voluntary services provide an accredited standard of rehabilitation. We need to use the entire pool of facilities available rather than always saying we need more. We need to look at how we can maximise and use all the facilities available. I understand that work is at a fairly advanced stage

Deputy Jack Wall

I have deep concerns about problems with drugs in communities. I congratulate the Garda on the effort it is putting in. It has had some major hits in recent years, but that cannot continue unless the public realises the problem and the threat that is there, and helps the Garda. It is no use saying the Garda did not do this or that if one had information that would be reflective and would help it to overcome problems.

We have to educate ourselves, as a community and a nation, about the threat posed by drugs because the leeches who set out to do this do not care who they hurt. There was a case in my area where a young child of four years of age was stabbed with a syringe. The community went spare, and rightly so. If there is knowledge that somebody is doing that in the first place, it is no use bringing in the Garda when it happens. One should bring them in before something happens — prevention is the best part of this. To do that, we must educate people at every possible level. I hope the new strategy will include such a measure. On previous occasions I talked about the alternatives to drugs and we must use everything in this regard.

The Minister mentioned recreational walks, but we must use all the national sports and recreational organisations and volunteers to put into people's minds, especially young people, that there is an alternative. We can only do that by highlighting the alternatives and providing education to ensure children, especially those in primary school and those starting secondary school, know there is an alternative, because there is no doubt the drug barons of this world are starting at that level to attract people. We must try to break that barrier and ensure children know what the dangers are and that there is a better selection of entertainment for them and we must try to develop it further. Significant money has been invested in sport. We must keep that up and educate children about the services in place.

Deputy John Curran

I agree wholeheartedly that prevention, education and awareness are absolutely crucial. It is a key element of the new strategy. When we talk about education and awareness, it falls into two types of groups, including the population in general. With the research done here and in other countries, we can identify those who are more vulnerable and susceptible to becoming involved in drug use. In that regard, many of the actions undertaken by task forces, locally and regionally, are targeted interventions at the at-risk group. As the Deputy said, it is a significant area of work to prevent people from starting to take drugs and divert them to other recreational activities, and that is reflected in the new strategy.

Vice Chairman

Can we agree to note programme 2? Agreed.

We now move to programmes 4, 5 and 6. Programme 4 concerns Gaeltacht and islands development and consists of social and cultural schemes, Gaeltacht improvement schemes, Gaeltacht community and recreational facilities, Gaeltacht housing, services for the islands and Údarás na Gaeltachta. Programme 5 concerns the promotion and maintenance of the Irish language and the subheads are Ciste na Gaeilge, An Coimisinéir Teanga, place-names and advanced Irish skills. Programme 6 concerns North-South co-operation and the subheads are Foras na Gaeilge, the Ulster Scots agency, the PEACE and INTERREG projects and Waterways Ireland. Are there any questions?

Deputy Jack Wall

What will happen regarding the housing grant for people who had received planning permission before 8 April? When those people submitted the application forms they had an expectation that there was a grant available to them, but as a result of the deadline in June, which was announced in the budget, people will be deprived of the grant. It will not break the bank to give grants to those people. The Minister should reflect on that and give people the opportunity of getting the grant. It is a very difficult situation because the expectation was there when the couple or single person submitted the application that they would get the grant but suddenly they see a deadline. The Minister is being very hard on those people.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Is Deputy Wall referring to Gaeltacht housing grants?

Deputy Jack Wall

Yes.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I take his point and support what he says. There is another twist to this. I understand the extension applies only to new houses and the time involved is 7 April to 15 June. If one submitted an application for a new house before 7 April, one has until 15 June to submit it to the Department. As the Minister well knows, there was another dimension to the Gaeltacht house grants for renovations that were often as generous and lucrative as a new house grant. Currently, many people in the Gaeltacht wish to carry out repairs to their old houses. If they submitted an application before 7 April, does the extension cover them?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No. The scheme is not closed. The reason I suspended taking further applications was that the number of applications on hand was increasing. I put a further €1 million into the scheme at the end of last year. We paid out a significant amount of money at the end of the year.

I am a little taken aback by this because, as the committee knows, we gave special grants to the mná na tí to upgrade the houses to comply with fire regulations and so on, and that measure excluded them from reapplying for seven years. My expectation was that demand would fall in the short term, but that did not happen.

To return to the question, when I closed the scheme, I became aware of the fact that by practice, if not by very strict application of the rules, people who started building a new house and only applied for the grant when they were half way through were normally approved for the grant, if eligible, and it was paid. We did not disqualify them because they put the first block in. Otherwise people who had entered serious cash commitments would get caught because I said on a certain day they could not apply. In the two scenarios mentioned by the Deputies, however, if there was no planning by 7 April, the house could not be started. There could not be any serious commitment on building the house. Therefore, a person could put off building the house until I reopen the grant scheme.

Similarly with the repair grant — I was advised not to make any exceptions — a person cannot start the work before the grant is approved because, as Gaeltacht Deputies are aware, the person would not know what work to do because it is specifically stated in the grant how much to spend on the windows, on the roof and so on. For the new house grant, there is an amount for the entire house. Therefore, no one on 7 April could have incurred expense on the repair if they had not secured planning permission, and they could defer the decision to go ahead with the works until the grant scheme reopens.

It was a custom that was not 100% within the rules but had grown up, and in view of the fact it was a reality for people, and that grant forms had been accepted and grants paid for people whose house was half built, it would be churlish of me to cut them short.

Deputy Jack Wall

By doing that, people will delay the commencement of the house in these areas where employment is of paramount importance. The Minister is telling local builders nothing can be done. If grants are delayed, there will be a knock-on effect on the building industry in those areas. It is having a terrible effect.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have heard that argument. I could continue to take applications ad nauseam and approve them.

Deputy Jack Wall

I did not say that.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I could not pay the grants, however, because I do not have the money. Part of the reason for that is demand for the grant is increasing, a good thing in itself. I am not in reality holding up the paying of the grant by not taking any more applications. There is already enough work on hand to work the whole scheme to capacity not just for this year but for next year as well. I do not have the capacity to create more work through this scheme because I am already at capacity.

I did not do this lightly. Initially I thought it would self-correct and demand would drop because so many people got the grant a few years ago but the number of applications has increased. Amazingly, demand did not drop and I had to call a halt because I simply did not have the money. Letting people who have not entered a commitment into the scheme now would mean I would have to put them on a waiting list and it would not make sense.

It is different, however, for someone who has already spent €50,000 on a house and is then caught short by a deadline from the Department. That is where I drew the line but wherever one draws the line, someone is always caught on the wrong side. I must, however, say the main people who are complaining were those who were going for the new house grant when the house was well started but who had forgotten to make the application. There were not that many but I felt they had a genuine case and, as Deputy McGinley knows because I answered a Dáil question he put down on this, I felt that in fairness we should let that group through. I cannot go any further or I would create more of a problem.

In 2002 there were 227 new house grants, in 2003 there were 246, in 2004 there were 262, the same in 2005, 151 in 2006 during the boom, in 2007 there were 180 and in 2008 there were 213. Talk about being anti-cyclical. The larger numbers were in the years when the boom was not so widespread and the real boom years saw the smallest number of applications.

Deputy Michael Ring

The Minister was hoping to deal with 180 in 2008 but he paid out 182 grants. There were 800 applications for house improvement grants and 904 grants were paid. I am sure everyone expects there will be a decline this year.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No, that is the problem. The number of applications that came in during the first quarter of this year would have exceeded the funds if they were all sanctioned. There are applications for up to €4 million in hand. It might work out at less because some of the applications might be ineligible.

Deputy Michael Ring

How much is the grant?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Approximately €5,000 maximum on the mainland and €15,000 on the islands.

Deputy Michael Ring

A substantial amount.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

This is useful information. Looking at the house improvement grants, in 2002 there were 989 applications, in 2003 — 731, in 2004 — 649, in 2005 — 576, in 2006 — 817, and in 2007 — 1,310 — that was the year we gave all these mná na tí the money to sort them out. In 2008 there were 900 applications. As the decline started, however, the demand for the grant increased because the housing boom was an urban phenomenon driven by ever increasing prices. The one-off site on a parent's land did not have cost as an issue. The people involved did not have to run out and buy a house at the top of the market. They did not, therefore, follow the cycle in the same way as the rest of the country, with housing driven by builders, because they were building to need. They have a free site and the issue that drives demand on that site is that house building prices are down and there are tradesmen available to do the work who would have not considered building a one-off house two years ago. That is why the new house build numbers are up in 2008 and probably again in 2009.

For the improvement grant, people have the time and can find the workmen to do the improvements whereas a few years ago none of them wanted to do a €20,000 improvement. That is the driving force and it put me in an awkward position. All I did was cut demand to meet the supply of money I have.

I had thought that €3 million would see me through. If I had gone back to the low level of 2005, I probably would have got through without having to close the scheme. It did not fall back to the 2005 level, amazingly. It has gone up, rather than down. It has been absolutely counter-cyclical. That has been the problem.

Vice Chairman

Is it agreed to note programme 4? We are on programmes 4, 5 and 6.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I have a few things to say about programme 4. Before we move on to the fo-mhíreanna, I would like to refer briefly to the discussion between my colleague and the Minister. He introduced a red herring when he said we planned to abolish the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. It is a red herring because no decision to abolish that Department has been made. In fact, Fine Gael has always been very supportive of the Department. I would like to inform my party colleague, Deputy Ring, and the rest of the committee that Fine Gael established the original Department of the Gaeltacht in 1956.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Yes, in 1956.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Two of the Minister's predecessors — Pat Lindsay and Paddy O'Toole — came from north Mayo. Tom O'Donnell also held that office at one time. Many changes have been made to the former Department of the Gaeltacht since I was first elected to the House in 1982. One would swear that it had been dismantled by default. When I was first elected, it was known as Roinn na Gaeltachta. It dealt with anything to do with the Irish language or the Gaeltacht. It now forms part of the much larger Roinn Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta. The reference to the Gaeltacht has been relegated to the end of the Department's title, instead of being at the beginning. I do not doubt that the Gaeltacht has been downgraded within the Department. I am aware that all Departments are being assessed by an bord snip. God knows what it will come up with.

Every day, across the floor of the Dáil, the Taoiseach asks us what we are doing to curtail expenditure, to make sure it is sent in the right direction, spent properly and without duplication. As a responsible Opposition party, Fine Gael is proposing that an assessment of Roinn Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta, as well as other Departments, should be carried out. If we learn that certain functions are being duplicated, we will address that problem. Having been here for a long time, I am confident that Fine Gael will always support the retention of a Department dealing with Gaeltacht matters. We created the Department many years ago and will not abolish it. As I recall, the Minister's party once failed to give responsibility for the Gaeltacht to any Ministry. As an afterthought, the Taoiseach of the day took it on himself to throw the job to somebody. I forget who it was. It may have been one of my colleagues from County Donegal.

We will not take any lessons from the Minister. I will not allow him to reprimand Fine Gael for its adherence to, support for and loyalty to a Department that it created over 50 years ago. We might make it more efficient, for example, by taking powers from it. I can think of powers that I would like to give to the Department. I am sure the Minister will remember that the then Roinn Oideachais was responsible for the promotion of the Irish language for a long time. It has fallen way back since 1982, when I was first elected to the House. I do not have to go into that; it is a different Department. When the review is taking place and submissions are being made, we might make recommendations in respect of the Department that should have responsibility for the promotion of the Irish language inside and outside the Gaeltacht. As Deputy Ring said, the Minister can rest assured go mbeidh Roinn na Gaeltachta ar ais mar a bhí sí. Le cúnamh Dé, I will be a Member of the House when that happens.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am very reassured by what the Deputy said. The Fine Gael document to which I referred states:

Fine Gael will review the viability of the Department at this stage [when it has transferred everything to local government] to assess whether to transfer other responsibilities from other Government Departments to it or to possibly wind down the Department over a period of time.

I welcome the clear statement Deputy McGinley made. I was delighted to hear it. I assume he is supported by Deputy Ring when he says there is no question of the Department being wound down.

Deputy Michael Ring

Does the Minister know what a review is?

Deputy Dinny McGinley

It does not mean abolition. It is as simple as that. Words have different meanings.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am glad there is agreement that the Department should not be wound down. I hope Fine Gael will rethink its policy of transferring all rural programmes to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, as I do not think it would be a good move. We should have a debate on the matter, in a cooler atmosphere, some time in the near future.

Deputy Michael Ring

We can do that any time.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Níl mé chun tuilleadh tagairt a dhéanamh ar na scéimeanna tithíochta. Tá siad pléite ag an Teachta Wall agus agam féin. Má tá sé fíor gur socrú sealadach é seo, is cúis dóchas é. Dúirt an tAire go bhfuil sé ar intinn aige an scéim a thabhairt ar ais arís. An inseoidh sé dúinn cathain a chuirfidh sé an scéim ar ais? An bhfuil sé ag smaoineamh ar é a dhéanamh ag deireadh na bliana seo, nó an bhliain seo chugainn? Ní shílim gur cheart scéim mar seo, a bhfuil ráchairt mór ar sna ceantair Gaeltachta, a chur ar ceal. Léiríonn an méid iarratas atá á chur isteach go bhfuil ráchairt mór ann. Ní hamháin go bhfuil meas ag daoine ar an scéim, ach tá an-chuid dóibh ar brath ar. Ní shílim gur chúis mhaith í a chur ar ceal an phointe sin amháin.

Ba mhaith liom labhairt anois faoi na bóithre Gaeltachta. Chomh fada agus is eol dom, tá dhá scéim bóithre i gceist — na bóithre áise agus na bóithre straitéiseacha. Tá obair mhaith déanta ar na bóithre straitéiseacha. Is páirt riachtanach d'infreastruchtúr na Gaeltachta iad, go mórmhór in áiteanna ar nós Gleann Cholm Cille agus Leitir Mealláin, áit ina raibh mé oíche amháin le déanaí nuair a bhí mé ag seoladh feachtas. Tá na bóithre a théann amach go dtí aíteanna ar nós An Daingean, Béal Átha an Ghaorthaidh agus Cúil Aodha fíor-thábhachtach freisin. Is cinnte go bhfuil feidhm leis an scéim sin. Tá titim suntasach — 40% ar a laghad — tagtha ar an méid airgead atá ar fáil i mbliana. Níl a fhios agam cén tionchar a bheidh ar sin ar an scéim. Níor mhaith liom go gcuirfí deireadh leis an scéim úd. Ba cheart dúinn leanúint ar aghaidh leis. Tá go leor oibre le déanamh go fóill sna ceantair éagsúla.

Tá titim suntasach, ó €33 milliún go €23 milliún, á chur i gníomh sna hoileáin freisin. We are talking about the islands now. Tá islú de beagnach €10 milliún i gceist. Ar ndóigh, rinneadh dul chun cinn mór ar áiseanna a chur ar fáil dos na hoileáin le roinnt blianta anuas. Tá go leor obair eile le déanamh. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil forbairt mór á phleanáil ar Inis Mór i láthair na huaire. Beidh cé bhreá den scoth ag muintir na hoileáin gan mhoill. Ní thógfaidh an Aire aon aire má thaispeánann mé beagáinín paróisteachas. Tá mé ag smaoineamh ar na hoileáin i gContae Dhún na nGall. Níor chaitheadh pingin ar Gabhla le roinnt blianta anuas, ó chuireadh isteach an aibhléis agus an uisce. Is beag a rinneadh ar na céanna agus na bóithre ansin le tamall fada. Ar nós go leor oileáin eile, tá Gabhla ag éirí gnóthach. Bíonn daoine ann i rith an tsamhraidh, go háirithe, sa bhfómhar agus san earrach. Tá roinnt mhaith vótálaithe ann. Sílim go gcaithfidh idir 20 agus 30 duine vóta ar Oileán Ghabhla, le cúnamh Dé, i gceann coicíse. D'ardaigh mé an ábhar seo go minic sa Dáil. B'fhéidir go mbeidh rud éigin le rá ag an Aire faoin aerstráice ar Oileán Thóraí, lena bhfuilimid ag fanacht le blianta fada. Níl mé chun tagairt ró-mhór a dhéanamh ar an mballa cosanta. Bhí díospóireacht againn faoi sa Dáil le déanaí. Sílim go bhfuil €60,000 curtha ar fáil ag an Roinn agus €60,000 eile curtha ar fáil ag an chomhairle chontae. Cathain a tosnóidh an obair ar an mballa cosanta? Dúirt an Aire go bhfuil súil aige go dtosnóidh an obair i rith an tsamhraidh.

Is eagraíocht an-tábhachtach é Údarás na Gaeltachta. Tugaimid tacaíocht i gcónaí don údarás. Tá géarchéim eacnamaíochta sa tír agus sa Ghaeltacht faoi láthair. Tá dífhostaíocht ag dul in airde agus tá a lán daoine ag dul ar imirce. San am seo, tá sé iontach tábhachtach go dtabharfaimid na hacmhainní don údarás fá choinne leanúint lena obair tábhachtach, ar nós fostaíocht a chur ar fáil agus cuidiú a thabhairt dos na scéimeanna cultúrtha.

Ba mhaith liom cúrsaí óige — oifigigh óige, srl — a ardú. Sílim go mbaineann an cheist sin leis an Roinn seo. Bhí mé i láthair nuair a thug an Aire cuairt orainn cúpla seachtain ó shin. Rinne an oifigeach óige i mo cheantar fhéin cur i láthair an lá sin. Os rud é go bhfuil sé lonnaithe san ionad phobal, tá sé ag sábháil airgead cíosa, srl. Tuigim go raibh comhráite idir an Aire agus an t-údarás an lá sin. Cé mhéad dul chun cinn atá déanta sna comhráite, chomh fada agus a bhaineann siad leis an ábhar sin?

Tá sé tábhachtach dúinn iarrachtaí tras-Teorann ar son na Gaeilge, ar nós An Foras Teanga, a fhorbairt. Dar ndóigh, tá eagraíocht eile ag obair ar son an Ulster-Scots. Cén impleachtaí a bheidh ar an laghdú de beagnach €2,000 sa chás seo ar éifeacht agus oibríocht an fhorais? Tá iarracht mór á dhéanamh ag an fhoras ar dhá thaobh na Teorann ó thaobh na Gaeilge de.

Is dócha nach mbeidh aon ionadh ar an Aire go bhfuil mé chun an chlár dílárú a bhí beartaithe d'Fhoras na Gaeilge a ardú arís. Tá muintir mo phobal féin ag fanacht gó fóill le haghaidh an scéim sin. Is iad san na príomh-phointí gur mhaith liom a dhéanamh. Ní shílim go bhfuil mórán níos mó la rá agam ag an bpointe seo. Beidh mé ag súil le freagraí an Aire.

Vice Chairman

Is maith an rud é go bhfuil an Ghaeilge go líofa ag an Teachta. An bhfuil na freagraí ag an Aire?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá roinnt freagraí agam. Admhaím go bhfuil an méid airgead atá ar fáil dos na bóithre áise agus na bóithre straitéiseacha ciorraithe i mbliana. Ciallaíonn sé sin nach mbeimid in ann an oiread oibre agus a bhí súil leis a dhéanamh. Níl aon amhras faoi sin. Aontaím leis go hiomlán gur scéimeanna an-mhaith iad. Ba cheart dúinn leanúint leo. Tá roinnt mhaith airgead a bhí ceadaithe anuraidh le caitheamh i mbliana. Mar is eol don Teachta, bhí fadhbanna maidir le bóithre áise áirithe i dTír Chonaill a cheadaigh mé anuraidh. Nuair a cheadaigh mé na oibreacha, tharla sé go raibh roinnt de na meastúcháin ag an Roinn le cúpla bliain anuas. D'iarr an chomhairle chontae ar an Roinn breis airgid a chur ar fáil. Dar liomsa, bhí barraíocht airgid á lorg ag an gcomhairle. Bhí sé i gceist agam tairiscintí a lorg ó chomhlachtaí príobháideacha leis an obair a dhéanamh. Ní raibh mé sásta leis na meastúcháin a bhí ag Chomhairle Chontae Chún na nGall. Beidh áthas ar an Teachta a chloisteáil gur tháinig an Roinn ar réiteach leis an gcomhairle ar bheagán breise airgid a chur ar fáil. Tuigim go bhfuil sé sin ceadaithe anois. Beidh an chomhairle chontae in ann dul ar aghaidh leis an obair sin. Is oth liom go raibh moill bliana ar seo, ach níl mé, mar Aire, sásta iomarca airgid a íoc. De réir mar a chonaic oifigigh agus innealtóirí na Roinne na tionscadail, bhí an méid airgid sna meastúcháin thar a luach. Tá mé cinnte go mbeidh gach éinne sásta a chloisteáil go bhfuil réiteach sásúil ar an gceist sin.

Bhí laghdú le teacht, i gcónaí, ar an gcaiteachas caipitil ar na hoileáin. Níl mé a rá go raibh sé le teach chomh sciobtha le seo, ach thuigeamar i gcónaí gurb é an figiúr ba mhó a bheadh ann riamh in aon bhliain amháin ná an €33 milliún a chaitheadh anuraidh. Bhí an figiúr sin le teacht anuas i mbliana pé scéal é. Tharla go raibh riar mhaith tograí móra ar bun ag an am céanna, gó mórmhór an Inis Bó Finne na Gaillimhe, Inis Meáin agus Inis Mór. Tá an obair ar Inis Mór faoi lán tseoil i láthair na huaire. Tá súil agam go mbeidh an togra sin críochnaithe an bhliain seo chugainn. Is é an togra seo an togra is mó oileánda riamh a tugadh faoi sa Stáit. Baineann idir 250,000 agus 300,000 duine, chomh maith le báid iascaigh, báid lastais agus báid tarrthála, úsáid as an gcé ar Inis Mór gach bhliain. Cé go bhfuil níos lú airgid i gceist, beimid in ann leanacht le chlár an-mhaith oileánda. Chun é a chur i gcomhthéacs, sílim go raibh idir €1 milliún agus €1.5 milliún ar fáil mar chaipitil oileánda nuair a tháinig mé isteach sa Roinn. Is minic a ghabhaim buíochas leis an iar-Aire Stáit, Donal Carey, as ucht an chiste bheag sin a chur in áit. B'shin tús leis an caiteachas seo. Go minis, is é an rud is deacaire ná an fo-mhír a fháil. Bhí an ciste le titim siar go €10 milliún sna blianta atá romhainn. Fiú le sin, beimid in ann leanacht le chuid de na tograí atá luaite inniu.

Tháinig moill ar fhorbairt an aerstráice ar Oileán Thoraí nuair a bhí an talamh á cheannach. Tá an togra sin idir lámha ag an Roinn agus an chomhairle chontae i láthair na huaire. Cloisim an méid atá á rá ag an Teachta faoi Oileán Ghabhla. Mar is eol dó, tá airgead ceadaithe d'Oileán Thoraí. Tá an obair sin á déanamh i mbliana. Tá obair eile á dhéanamh ar Inis Bó Finne na Gaillimhe. Nuair a bheidh cuid de na tograí móra as an mbealach, fillfimid ar na tograí beaga ar na hoileáin beaga. Nuair a bhí na tograí móra millteanacha á phleanáil againn, bhí an airgead dírithe ar na hoileáin móra, in ionad na hoileáin beaga. Nuair atá na tograí sin críochnaithe, rachfaimid ar ais go dtí na tograí beaga arís.

Níl mé 100% sásta nach bhfuil bealaí níos fearr ag Údarás na Gaeltachta, go mórmhór ó thaobh na clár tógála de, chun luach níos fearr a fháil as an airgead atá á chaitheamh aige. Le blianta anuas, tá an t-údarás ag tógaint foirgnimh — cuid acu a raibh daoine le bogadh isteach iontu, agus cuid eile nach raibh. Ní dóigh liom gurb é sin an bealach is fearr chuige. Tá sé sin á rá agam le blianta fada anuas — ó cheapadh mar Aire Stáit mé, gan trácht ar Aire. Is fiú breathnú ar chleachtais spéisiúla eile. Cheannaigh an t-údarás suíomh, atá in aice le Cunga Feichín i gContae na Gaillimhe, ó Coillte Teoranta. Lig an t-údarás an suíomh ar léas fada le daoine a chur tionscadal ar bun iad fhéin ann, ar bheagán costas don údarás. Ceapaim nár bhfuair siad aon deontas, fiú, ach ní fhéadfainn a bheith 100% cinnte. Tá mé cinnte dearfach gur thóg siad na bhfoirgnimh ar chostas i bhfad níos saoire ná mar a dhein an t-údarás. Tá éastát i gCorr na Móna réitithe amach ó thaobh bóithre agus seirbhísí de, ach níl foirgnimh á thógáil. Ní credim gur cheart son údarás foirgnimh a thógáil. Nuair atá na seirbhísí curtha ar fáil againn ar an eastát, ba chóir dúinn deontais a thabhairt do dhaoine chun a foirgnimh féin a thógáil.

B'fhearr liom an cur chuige seo a ghlacadh i nGaoth Dobhair, mar shampla, as seo amach. Má tá gá le foirgneamh nua, ba cheart dúinn deontas a thabhairt don tionsclaí chun é a thógáil i measc na seirbhísí éagsúla — leathanbhanda, bóithre, soilsí, séarachas agus uisce — atá solárthairthe againn ar an eastát. Dá dtiocfaimis an bealach sin, ceapaim go mbeimid in ann i bhfad níos mó tairgiúlacht a fháil. Bheadh úinéireacht ag lucht reachtála na monarchana. Is é seo an chóras a úsáideann Enterprise Ireland, mar shampla. Bheadh na húinéirí in an monarcha é a úsáid sa bhainc mar collateral in aghaidh iasachtaí a thógfaidís. Pléfidh mé na ceisteanna seo leis an údarás, chun féachaint cad é an bealach is fearr chun luach a fháil as caiteachas an údaráis. Tá súil agam go mbeidh dlúth-chomhphairtíocht idir Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta. Tabharfaidh ceann acu deontais go dtí tionscail bheaga. Ní cheart go mbeidh aon dhúbláil ansin. Mar is eol don choiste, go fad-téarmach creidim gur cheart go mbeadh na scéimeanna sin ar fad á riaradh ag dream amháin.

D'ardaigh an Teachta ceist na oifigigh óige. Phléigh mé an cheist sin le phríomhfheidhmeannach an údaráis. Mar is eol don Teachta, faoin reachtaíocht ní féidir liom treoir a thabhairt faoi rud sonrach. Go ginearálta, ó thaobh óige na Gaeltachta de, creidim gur cheart don airgead sin dul go dtí daoine atá ag obair ar an talamh. Níl maorlathas á chur ar bun agam. Is iad na youth workers, nó oibrithe óige, gur mhaith liomsa a fheiceáil ann. Ba cheart dóibh a bheith ag obair leis na daoine óga ar an talamh — ag rith na gclubanna, mar shampla. Ní chóir dúinn an airgead a dhíriú ar daoine a bheidh ag riaradh cúrsaí gan obair a dhéanamh leis na daoine óga. Is cuma más daoine páirtaimseartha iad. Go ginearálta, b'fhearr liomsa go mbeadh bord an údaráis — tá ionadaithe as gach páirtí anseo ar an mbord — ag brú an airgead amach go dtí na hoibrithe óige agus iad i measc an phobail.

Maidir le Foras na Gaeilge, níl aon socrú déanta go fóill ar roinnt an airgid idir Foras na Geailge agus an Bord Ultais. Ní bheidh a fhios againn cén ciorrú a bheidh i gceist go dtí go ndéanfaí an cinneadh sin. Níl aon cheist faoi ná go bhfuil dúshlán ann don dá fhoras. Tá ceist an chomhmheas airgid idir muid fhéin agus Tuaisceart Éireann le phlé. Ar ndóigh, tá díluacháil i gceist thuas ansin freisin. Tá na ceisteanna sin idir lámha i láthair na huaire. Níl aon cinneadh deiridh déanta go fóill.

Tá díomá orm go bhfuil an oiread seo moille agus fadhbanna ag baint leis na postanna i nGaoth Dobhair. Shocraigh an dá Aire go dtiocfadh cúig phost go Gaoth Dobhair. Dúirt mé nach raibh mé sásta go gceadófaí aon phost eile ó Dheas go dtí go líonfaí na postanna úd. De réir mar a thuigim, thug na hoibritheoirí cás go dtí na meicníochtaí tionsclaíochta — b'fhéidir an Labour Relations Commission. Tuigim go bhfuil an rud ag dul go dtí an Cúirt Oibreachais anois. Go dtí go réiteofar é sin, is beag dul chun cinn gur féidir linn a dhéanamh. Tá mé tiomáinte chun é seo a chur i gcrích. Tá díoma orm go raibh an oiread cur in aghaidh na postanna úra nua seo. Caithfidgh mé a rá go bhfuil díomá orm nach féidir leis na daoine seo a fheiceáil go bhfuil leas na tíre i gceist, agus postanna á chruthú i nGaeltacht Ghaoth Dobhair. Seasaidh mé an fód sa chás seo. Tá mé tiomáinte go hiomlán. Tá an tAire Campbell ag tabhairt lán-tacaíocht dom go mbeidh na postanna seo i nGaoth Dobhair. Níor shíl mé riamh go dtógfadh sé chomh fada seo. Tá mé dírithe ar choinneáil liom, cé chomh fhada is atá an bóthar, go dtí go mbeidh na postanna seo i nGaoth Dobhair.

Deputy Jack Wall

I am sorry that my Irish is not as good as that of Deputy McGinley and the Minister. In their contributions, they may have commented on the matters I wish to raise. I would like to ask the Minister about the future of the Irish language in the education system. We have many gaelscoileanna at primary level, but we do not have a matching number of gaelcholáistí to cater for those who want to extend their commitment to the Irish language at secondary level. We do not have enough Irish language facilities in our secondary schools. There seems to be a willingness to take action at primary level, but unfortunately not at secondary level. In my local area, families have to travel up to 20 miles if their children are to continue their Irish-medium education at secondary level. Much of the good work that is done at primary level is being lost. I accept that this might be a matter for the Minister for Education and Science rather than the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív. I would like to hear his views on the matter, as the Minister with responsibility for Gaeltacht affairs. Has he debated this issue with officials from the Department of Education and Science? The gaelscoileanna in my part of the country are full. When my wife was in a supermarket the other day, she stopped to speak to a neighbour of ours who happens to be a teacher in a gaelscoil. Many of the children in the area know my wife because she used to teach Irish dancing. She was absolutely amazed to hear the youngsters interacting with the teacher in Irish. She commented on how refreshing it was to hear Irish being spoken. I am worried all that good work will be lost when those children move on to the next stage, simply because we have no gaelcholáiste in Athy. Does the Minister have any ideas about how to overcome this difficulty? As I said, it is more of a problem for the Department of Education and Science than for the Minister's Department.

Deputy Michael Ring

The recent report of the Irish language commission criticised the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs for not complying with the Official Languages Act 2003. I would like the Minister to respond to that. I note that the Department has spent over €800,000 on Irish language-related consultancy. When will the strategy be published? Is it time to review the 2003 Act? I am particularly concerned about the cost of translating documents into Irish. I recently saw some massive figures in that regard. I ask the Minister to respond to my concerns in this regard. Like me, he sees such figures on a regular basis. I do not like to see road signs in Gaeltacht areas on which English language versions of place-names have been painted. This is often done incorrectly, although the Irish language version is often incorrect as well. It is a problem. Perhaps it is time to review the Act to ascertain whether it is working, or whether changes need to be made to it. The Minister and I spoke about the fact that translation is costing a fortune. Is it necessary to have such duplication? Could the Irish language version not be put on the website rather than having to be printed?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I will make three or four quick points about the translation of documents. They do not have to be printed, and anybody who is printing them is wasting money. They can be published on the Internet. That is all the Act requires. That is the first red herring that is out there. It is a pure seafóid. It is not in the Act. If one publishes these documents on the Internet, one is covered. It is amazing how people who want to knock the Irish language always see expense in it. It does not matter how often I repeat the basic argument that printing is not required under the Act as I will read the same thing in the newspapers the following month and the month after that. Perhaps the four or five Deputies who are present can agree that the publication of these documents on the Internet is adequate?

I will respond to the point that has been made about costs. The Official Languages Act 2003 can save us a huge amount of money on translation. I will mention the first thing we could do under the Act. Everyone has become aware of the cost of producing documents, particularly the cost of translating them. I think those who argue that nobody reads these documents in Irish and in English are bloody well right. We all get documents that are so thick we could not read them. I put one in ten of these documents aside. The only chance I get to read them is when I am on a long aeroplane journey. We should use the 2003 Act to save money. For every €1 that is spent on translating a document into Irish, €10 is spent on writing that document in the English language. Translating is very simple — one reads the words in English and translates them into Irish. Machine translation can be used in cases of documents that are similar to previously published documents. Computers can be used to translate four fifths of such documents. Do members ever think of the costs associated with getting people to write all these documents in the first instance? Officials spend many hours going through various drafts before the document is ever translated. The initial process costs ten times as much as the translation process. Given that these thick documents are not being read in English, why are we not worried about the cost of producing them? It seems that ten pages, rather than 300 pages, would do in many cases.

It is time for the Oireachtas to get rid of its myopia about the Irish language. It should reflect on the cost of producing documents that no one will ever read. Many thick reports are unnecessarily produced in this State. If we are really serious about saving money, rather then being hung up on the few bob that is spent on the Irish language, we should look at all the costs associated with producing documents, including the cost of translating them. I suggest that translation is the easiest aspect of producing documents. Countries all over the world deal with it. Some countries translate everything. All we translate is annual reports and White Papers, etc. Compared with nearly any other country in the world, the amount of money we spend on translation is virtually nil. Every other country deals with this problem.

There are ways of reducing the cost of translation. The two big documents that keep having to be translated are annual reports and accounts, which tend to be in a similar format from year to year. The reality is that if I produce an annual report this year and put it in a similar format next year, all the translator will have to do is go into my computer, which will automatically pick up every sentence and half sentence that is repeated from the previous year. A New Zealand company, which is now based in County Kerry, is specialising in helping people to make sure they are not ripped off when they are translating stuff that was previously translated. I happened to meet those involved at the far side of the world, not because of languages but because they have an operation in Ireland. While I agree that a debate on these issues is needed, we should have it in the round. We should make savings where the big savings are to be made, for example in the production of over-written documents with too many pages and appendices. Nobody reads these documents in the English language. The cost of producing them in English is much greater than the cost of translating them into Irish. If we are really concerned about this issue, we should deal with it.

I will respond to the question that was asked about the cost of consultancy. I am sorry that Deputy O'Shea is not here because he always asks me about this issue. In two cases, I have consciously and knowingly spent considerable sums of money on consultancy. In the first case — the linguistic study of the Gaeltacht — I felt that if we were to tackle this problem in a genuine manner, we needed a great deal of outside expertise. We had been examining the issue in-house for 70 or 80 years. I decided to bring some modern expertise to it on a one-off basis. I do not envisage that the process will be repeated in the next 20 or 30 years. The cost of that report has to be divided over the very long timescale for which it will be relevant. In the second case — the 20-year strategy for the Irish language — we again decided to bring in international expertise etc. Some very interesting documents have been produced.

In the heel of the hunt, whether we would have arrived at a similar final plan is a matter of opinion. It is important for the final 20-year strategy that a few hundred thousand euro is spent to get the best international validation on the approach and the best international experts. Given that it is a 20-year strategy, one has to take the task of the consultancy over that long time span. In respect of the Irish language I assure Deputies that I have done the Gaeltacht strategy and I have now done one for the rest of the country, and I am finished with expensive consultancies. There were two to be done. They were one-off projects, to get international validation or best expertise in the case of the Gaeltacht consultancy, as none of us wants to waste money on permanent consultancies.

In regard to the language commissioner it is important that he is, and is seen to be, independent of the Department and he certainly proved it in this case. The second issue, which was responded to in a parliamentary question, concerned a person who applied internally for a job in the public service. Two views were taken. The Department took one view and the commissioner took another. He decided to do an scrúdú, an examination. He confirmed his original view, having examined the whole issue, that the process followed was not perfect. We accepted that recommendation and are applying it. It would be wrong in the event of a difference of opinion between a Department or agency and the commissioner if they could not make a case. I can foresee a situation where Deputies might consider the commissioner was taking too strict an interpretation. We have all had that problem with regulation and commissioners. I think a Department is within its right in saying it considers the commissioner's interpretation is over-strict. Some process has to be followed and if one loses at the end of it, one has to accept the medicine. In this case, we have accepted the recommendation of the commissioner and that is the end of that matter. I do not see that it is a huge issue. Obviously, people will make an issue of it but I think my Department can live with that.

The first question on education is not one I can answer. Recently, I visited the gaecoláiste in Kildare where a person who is well known to me and who used to teach for me in an Irish college is involved. Despite the condition of the premises, I was very impressed. I have often seen a totally contradictory situation such as that where a small school in poor premises is unbeatable. Certainly the children's command of the Irish language appeared to be great and it was an enjoyable visit. Ráiteas i Leith na Gaeilge 2006, Statement on the Irish Language 2006, provides that Irish will be taught as an obligatory subject from primary level to leaving certificate. The curriculum will foster oral and written competence in Irish. That is a headline commitment given by the Government. The statement issued in 2006 is the bedrock for the strategy. All these issues will be mentioned in the strategy as headlines and will be developed in detail. A Deputy asked when all this would happen. I am happy with the progress made, particularly since Christmas. We had fairly raw documents at Christmas but much editing has been done since then. A meeting of the committee will take place tomorrow. A clear path has been charted as to how we will get to end game. It is difficult to say whether it will be September or July because if there is a problem it may take a few weeks to resolve it, but that is the timeframe envisaged. We have moved matters forward since Christmas. A huge amount of work has been done and we are much nearer to having a final document.

The 20-year strategy is for the people. This committee could have a very important role in terms of discussing the strategy. I am looking at that whole issue in the wider context.

Deputy Michael Ring

That is one of the proposals we will make. In the new Department we will give the Minister responsibility for gaelscoileanna as well as——

Vice Chairman

I thank Deputy Ring.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Go raibh míle maith agat. Fógróidh mé é sin anocht.

Vice Chairman

Beidh sé ar Raidió na Gaeltachta anocht.Can we agree the outputs for programmes 4, 5 and 6? Agreed.

Deputy Jack Wall

Let me ask one question on programme 6, Waterways Ireland. In regard to the development of the canals as a tourist aspect, has research been carried out on the number of boats using the waterways? I live beside the canal and it seems that the number of boats is static or on the decrease. I was in England recently and I noticed the canals there were full of boats. We do not appear to have developed Waterways Ireland, especially the canals. Perhaps the Shannon is reflective of where we are because somebody told me there were 65 boats in the Athy area. Certainly one does not see them in the water in the Athy area but it is obvious they are going to the Shannon. It is a wonderful aspect of tourism and a great way to spend a holiday, but the number of boats does not reflect the potential of what is available.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have a particular——

Deputy Michael Ring

I have two questions, one of which is on Waterways Ireland. Has the Minister an update on the dispute at Waterways Ireland? Regarding cross-Border co-operation, I note the Minister's budget has been reduced. Given the major announcement today by the Minister for Education and Science that he is pulling out of the all-Ireland autism scheme, I hope this is not an indication that cross-Border co-operation will be affected? Have the Minister and his officials had discussions with Údarás na Gaeltachta where I note the number of jobs has increased? While no job is safe, is there an indication that new jobs will be created?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have a particular interest in Waterways Ireland because it is one of the hidden gems of the country. In recent years Waterways Ireland has done quite an amount of promotional work, working with Fáilte Ireland and so on. In terms of boats, I still do not think this aspect has reached its potential, particularly on the canals as opposed to the Shannon. Much more can be done but I will try to get the numbers for the Deputy. A report about some part of England states that 85% of the usage of some canals there was not by boats. They were used for walking, sketching, fishing and a million other activities, or had general leisure amenity value. We should not underestimate the amenity value of the canals, which are picturesque. We have been developing plans for the usage of the canal in the city, much of which is not for boat usage because there are many locks in the city. On the issue of the funding of Waterways Ireland, 15% of current funding comes from Northern Ireland. We provide 100% of the capital in the South. None of its capital in the North is spent in the South. The only exception to that was the headquarters building which we part funded. Obviously I had to cut the money this year at the second last iteration. It was not easy to do that given the huge demand by people for the opening up of the closed waterways in the case of Longford and so on.

There are many closed canals. I would very much like to be able to ensure the work on all of them could be completed faster. Work on the Royal Canal project is nearly finished. The reopening of that will be a major event and the ongoing costs of it, once opened, will pose a challenge. I have a major personal interest in this canal, which stretches into many parts of our country. It passes through isolated rural areas and it is also a major amenity in this city. As a nation we should continue to invest in it, even if it is a loss leader, in other words, that there will not be a direct profit from it. We should invest in it because it is an important waterway.

Deputy Ring asked me questions about this matter previously. He will be aware that a personnel or industrial relations issue was raised. I understand this matter has now gone to the High Court in the North of Ireland. At this stage I see only one way of working through this issue completely and that is to allow independent bodies such as the High Court to give their judgment and whatever judgment they give we will accept it. As the matter is sub judice I will not make any comment on the dispute in question except to say that I am happy we have followed a sequential process. Those who are not happy with that, and this applies to any dispute, have a large number of methods of redress available to them, North and South. If they are not happy with the redress at one level, they can continue to move up the levels. This case has moved up to the High Court in the North. We accept the right of the plaintiffs to go wherever they feel they should go to avail of all the processes to ensure this matter has been fully addressed. We will accept the judgment but I hope when the process is concluded the judgment will be accepted as being the end of the matter. There is nothing more I can do in this respect.

I offered previously, and offer again to both parties, a briefing with the officials in my Department on this issue. There are issues that, for obvious reasons, we cannot put into the public domain because they are private. It would be right for us, as Members of the Oireachtas, to try to make almost all the information we have available on a confidential basis but because there are industrial relations issues involved, we must do it on the basis that it is accepted that people have their right to privacy.

Vice Chairman

Are the outputs for programmes 4, 5 and 6 agreed? Agreed.

We will now move on to programme 7, which deals with corporate support services. It deals with costs associated with the different services. Is it agreed that the committee notes that programme? Agreed. Is it agreed that we note the administration subheads? Agreed. That concludes consideration of Vote 27.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

On the administration subheads, throughout the year this area is always the subject of an endless number of parliamentary questions inquiring as to what was spent on this or that, on cups of tea or whatever. One of the cods in which we all get involved in the Oireachtas — I do not know what drives it — is that the administration subheads are nodded through without question at the Estimates meeting every year, but I then spend the rest of the year answering parliamentary questions on the same administration subheads. If members believe we are overspending on travel, overnight accommodation, coffee, tea or anything else, this is the forum in which to address that.

Vice Chairman

The members have agreed to note it, unless they want to ask questions.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Can I take it that the members opposite are happy in this respect?

Deputy Jack Wall

The Minister should reflect on what he has just said because, to my knowledge, I do not recall ever tabling a parliamentary question on whether he did or did not have a cup of tea. He should reflect upon what he said. His officials might come back and say I am wrong but I do not remember tabling questions on this matter.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I did not say the Deputy did.

Vice Chairman

Deputy Wall's point is noted.

Deputy Jack Wall

I want to ask another question. What effect is the decentralisation programme having, if any, on the smooth running of the Department? My question refers to costs and the interaction required of officials. I telephone the Department of Social and Family Affairs offices in Letterkenny and Sligo every day of the week and there is a great relationship in that regard. There is no problem in that respect. I am merely asking if the process in the Minister's Department will be the same or does he envisage any problems arising in the short term?

Vice Chairman

Does Deputy Ring also have some questions for the Minister on that issue?

Deputy Michael Ring

I would like the Minister to outline the position on decentralisation. What stage is it at and when does he expect to move it forward into Mayo? He might outline to the committee the up-to-date position. I intended submitting a priority question on this matter for the next Question Time but the Minister might answer it now.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

We have 100 staff in Tubbercurry. The target was to place 160 staff there. We have approximately 60 staff in Na Forbacha and the remainder are located in Dublin. The intention was to move the Department to Knock Airport but as one objector managed to persuade An Bord Pleanála that we should not get planning permission, we are now buying a site in Charlestown. I understand an issue has been raised by other people about another building in County Mayo — it was not raised by me — and that the Office of Public Works might be examining that but as far as I am concerned the place to which we want to move — this is the Government decision in this respect — is Charlestown. The relocation of the Department's headquarters to Charlestown was included in the decentralisation programme to proceed last autumn when the programme was cut to provide for the decentralisation of 6,000 people.

Deputy Wall asked a valid question because these are the type of savings we are trying to make. If I, as Minister, have to meet delegations in the Dáil and if I need to meet an official based in Tubbercurry or Na Forbacha, I try to meet them on a Wednesday afternoon in my Department where I have the facility of a video link. If decentralisation is to be a permanent feature of our Government, it is regrettable we do not have a facility for Ministers to have video linked meetings within the confines of Leinster House and Government Buildings. Such a facility would be a great addition towards facilitating decentralisation.

Vice Chairman

Can I give the Minister some good news? As a member of the Informal Feedback Forum with the Clerk of the Dáil, I am aware that such facilities will be coming onstream very shortly.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I hope we, as Ministers, get access to them because it would save a great deal of time.

Vice Chairman

I understand they will be available for all Deputies and Senators.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I also travel to Na Forbacha virtually every Monday afternoon and hold my meetings with all the delegations from the west coast and with people in Na Forbacha or with the officials in Na Forbacha. The purpose of the meetings is to ensure that I do the travelling rather than the officials. Once about every five weeks I spend a Monday afternoon in Tubbercurry engaged in the same process of meeting officials, or if there are delegations that the location of Tubbercurry suits we invite the delegations to meet there because the officials are based there. The benefits of decentralisation to the communities in which these offices are located far outweigh any inconvenience. As with the issue of translation, it can be done in a way that does not create a huge cost base. By being a little more organised, one can ensure that the cost base is very small.

It must be remembered that only a small number of officials have to travel. Most of the HEOs, EOs, CEOs and the largest number of civil servants do not travel all the time. It would be mainly principal officers, assistant secretaries and the Secretary General who would have to travel, and we try to keep it to a minimum. This has not been a major cost. I do not believe our customers have noticed any change in the service.

Deputy Ring would be in a better position than me to tell the committee about the effect of decentralisation on rural towns in County Mayo and the huge boost it gives in giving young people an opportunity to secure employment without all of them crowding the city to the point where people will not be able to move around anymore. There are challenges and they are being dealt with. I do not believe there is a big cost factor involved if we do our business correctly.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Minister for that clarification. That concludes our consideration of Vote 27. We will move to Vote 24 — charitable donations and bequests. Are there any questions?

Deputy Michael Ring

The Charities Bill was passed by the House. I was glad Deputy Wall and I dealt with it from start to finish and thank the officials for their co-operation. It was very interesting and I enjoyed working on the Bill. What is the current position in terms of appointing the regulator? When can we expect the staff to be in place to implement the legislation? Are there plans to invite charities' representatives to the Department to advise them on how the legislation will work?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is important Members are kept abreast of developments. I have heard that solicitors have been briefing charities on the legislation also. A commencement plan is being drawn up. We have to involve many other players such as the Revenue Commissioners and so forth. It is a big Bill and a new development; therefore, we must plan the introduction of all of its provisions. That is going ahead. I hope we will be able to implement the Act as early as possible but we must do it correctly. A big change is coming, as the Deputy is aware as he dealt with the legislation when it was going through the House. He is aware of the breadth of the legislation, the changes involved and that one just cannot press a button and make them happen. However, we are committed to the next phase which is an implementation plan.

Deputy Michael Ring

I hope the cutbacks in the Department and the embargo on recruitment will not affect it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No, that should not affect it.

Deputy Michael Ring

I am glad to hear it.

Vice Chairman

That concludes our consideration of Vote 24. I thank the Minister and his officials, as well as Deputies Ring and Wall, for the thorough and efficient manner in which they completed today's business.