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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 2009

Estimates for Public Services 2009.Vote 27 — Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Supplementary).

I welcome the Minister and his officials, Mr. Seosamh Ó hÁghmaill and Mr. Colm Treanor. This meeting has been convened to allow the committee to consider the Supplementary Estimate relating to Vote 27 — Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs — which is designed to facilitate a transfer to subhead F3, advanced Irish language skills initiative, of €1.299 million in current savings arising under subhead D4, rural social scheme, and €299,000 in current savings arising under subhead F1, Ciste na Gaeilge. The Supplementary Estimate is technical in nature and, as can be seen in the documentation distributed to members, is Exchequer-neutral in its effect. I suggest we consider it until 4.45 p.m. We may not need that much time but if we have not concluded our deliberations by then, a further meeting will be arranged. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Owing to the fact that so many committees are meeting today, it was not possible to hold our session in committee room No. 4. As there are no translation facilities available in this room, I propose to conduct the meeting as Béarla. I apologise to the Minister and members for this.

With regard to the proposed addendum to the material on the rural social scheme, the existing text of the final paragraph on page 6 of the document distributed to members is being replaced. It originally read:

Expenditure in 2008 totalled €33,311m. In 2009, the provision was set at €49,401m. Expenditure in 2009 is now projected to be at least €1m less than the voted provision.

The updated version states:

Expenditure in 2008 totalled €33,311m from the Exchequer and €16,000m from the Dormant Accounts Fund, giving a total of €49,311m. In 2009, the provision was set at €49,401m (exclusively from the Exchequer). Expenditure in 2009 is now projected to be at least €1m less than the voted provision.

I propose we commence the meeting with an opening statement from the Minister. This will be followed by opening statements from Opposition spokespersons.

I am delighted to be appearing before the committee again. I hope I will be coming before the joint committee in the near future to discuss the 20-year strategy and the Irish language.

As regards the Supplementary Estimate, savings have emerged under subheads D4, rural social scheme, and F1, Ciste na Gaeilge, as a result of the predicted outturns relating to these subheads being lower than anticipated. These savings will be used to fund the required amount.

Subhead F3 funds professional education-development courses to develop the cadre of qualified people needed to meet the requirements of the EU institutions in the use of the Irish language. This matter has assumed urgency in the context of the granting of official status to Irish as a working language of the European Union. The development of suitable courses has been taking place in recent years — through both the Higher Education Authority, HEA, and the Kings Inns — with support from my Department. The scale of provision of such courses by the HEA this year is greater than had been anticipated. Hence the provision of additional funding is required.

The Lisbon treaty will create additional demands for these services owing to the fact that increased Community legislation will be subject to co-decision procedures. This technical Supplementary Estimate will allow my Department to meet the additional requirements for funding this year in the provision of these specialist training courses, with the additional moneys required at this time being funded, as I have outlined, from savings elsewhere within my Department's Vote.

I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee. I will be happy to provide any additional information members may require.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I am disappointed we are taking money out of the rural social scheme, RSS, to pay for the translation of documents and solicitors' fees, particularly at a time when farming is under severe pressure. Farm incomes are down 28% this year while more than 10,000 people are drawing farm assist payments. Farming is in crisis and I am disappointed the Minister is taking €1 million out of the scheme to pay for other services, as this does not make sense. The scheme is one of the best the Minister has set up because it is working. The scheme does a good job and it provides for more work to be done in rural areas than would be done by local authorities. Farmers have been re-educated and they have returned to the workplace. In addition, the scheme has subsidised their income. The Minister has a waiting list for the scheme but he is taking €1 million of its allocation for the translation of documents and so on. A directive is needed from the Minister regarding the cost of translating documents. We discussed this on Question Time last week. This Supplementary Estimate does not make sense and I will oppose it.

I also welcome the Minister. As Deputy Ring said, good work is done through the RSS. The ability to transfer from a FÁS scheme or a community employment scheme when their term finished to the RSS has been of great benefit to participants. I welcomed the provision that allowed people to stay longer on the RSS than on a CE scheme. In north Galway, the co-ordinator can keep schemes going in many small towns and villages and I hope that will continue. One of the drawbacks is that people on the scheme will stay as long as they can, usually until retirement, and it is, therefore, difficult to access the scheme. If additional funding was available, could more places be provided? Are there proposals to amend the eligibility criteria for the RSS or for FÁS schemes? People want to remain on the schemes.

The other great benefit of the RSS, as Deputy Ring mentioned, is that one must have a herd number to be eligible. That has meant the farming community has benefited and great work has been done. However, we fought for a long time for sanction for the Irish language to be a working language of the European Union. Funding is provided for this. While this enables increased usage of the language, how many people have been employed in the translation of documents? The former MEP, Seán Ó Neachtain, was active in the campaign as a native speaker. We had a strong debate on the issue of the official status of the language within the EU in the previous Dáil and Seanad and it was a welcome development. If the Minister could acquire additional funding to increase the number of places on the RSS, that would also be a welcome development at a difficult time for the agricultural sector.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an ardú sa Mheastachán do thionscal ardscileanna na Gaeilge. Is dócha go dtagann an t-éileamh ó chúpla rud, go bhfuil an Ghaeilge anois mar theanga labhartha san Eoraip agus Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla a chinntíonn go mbeidh éileamh ar dhaoine le hardscileanna sa teanga chomh maith. Sílim go gcaithfear tosaíocht a thabhairt le freastal a dhéanamh ar an éileamh sin. An lá deireannach a bhí muid anseo, rinne muid tagairt go bhfuil easnamh ann go fóill mar nár éirigh linn an Bille tábhachtach a cuireadh tríd an Tí coicís ó shin a chur ar fáil i nGaeilge agus go raibh leasú le tabhairt isteach ag an Aire le heisceacht a dhéanamh de nach raibh aon leagan Gaeilge den Acht ar fáil. Tá súil agam, nuair a bheidh na daoine seo go léir cáilithe agus na caigheáin bainte amach acu agus na scileanna curtha ar fáil nach mbeidh orainn a bheith ag tabhairt isteach leasaithe eile i mBillí amach romhainn.

Is mór an trua é go bhfuil ísliú ag teacht ar chiste na Gaeilge, ciste atá tábhachach. Tuigimid go léir an gá le plean straitéiseach a ullmhú anois. An dúshlán atá amach romhainn nuair a chuirtear an plean ar fáil ná é a chur i réim. Má tá muid chun a bheith dáiríre faoin phlean seo, is cinnte nach bhfuil sé tráthúil a bheith ag gearrú siar ar mhíreanna chomh tábhachtach le ciste na Gaeilge. Nuair atá an tAire ag tabhairt freagra, b'fhéidir go ndéanfadh sé tagairt dúinn go díreach cén uair gurbh fhéidir linn a bheith ag súil leis an plean sin a bheith foilsithe. Bhí muid ag súil go mbeadh sé foilsithe roimh dheireadh na bliana agus níl fágtha ach mí eile. An sin mar atá an scéal nó an mbeidh orainn fanacht go dtí an bhliain seo chugainn?

The RSS plays a huge part in the lives of many towns and villages. A sum of €49 million was provided for the scheme. How did the shortfall come about? How can the additional money be provided in a Supplementary Estimate?

I welcome the Minister and his officials. It is only right that we should reflect on the tremendous benefits of the RSS, which we all witness in our constituencies in rural Ireland. The Minister is committed to the scheme. He introduced the initiative several years ago when we were trying to secure additional places on CE schemes. He came up with this scheme and he managed to secure a €10 million year on year increase for 2009. The Minister has a good reason for €1 million remaining unspent and I would like to him to outline that. However, he is committed to the scheme and whenever he has the opportunity, I encourage him to increase the number of participants on it.

I agree with my colleagues about the benefits of the scheme. The Minister stated that the Lisbon treaty will create additional services under the advanced Irish language skills initiative because of "increased Community legislation being subject to co-decision procedures". Will the Minister elaborate on that?

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I apologise for being late but I had to attend another meeting. I did not have an opportunity to read the Minister's contribution on the RSS but I have raised concerns previously about gaelscoileanna and coláiste. The funding referred to by the Minister relates to the advancement of the Irish language in EU institutions. With regard to the advancement of the language, what is the Department's role in educating the parents of children who attend gaelscoileanna and coláiste in their communities?

Last Monday week I saw a wonderful sight in my area. I walked down the town and saw those involved in the gaelscoil make the move from primitive conditions to a fine new school. It was magnificent to see the parents and all involved helping in moving the pupils down the road to take up residence in the new school. However, I am concerned about the next stage. There is no coláiste or second level gaelscoil in the Athy area, although there is one in Newbridge. One wonders from where funding will come now. How can we move to the next stage and ensure the provision of funds to set up gaelscoileanna will continue as we make progress in promoting the language? I agree with what is before us as it will contribute its further promotion. One can only agree with this and hope progress will be made. On the other hand, I am concerned about the direction we are taking with regard to gaelscoileanna and gaelcoláistí and what we are doing to make progress. If we increase the expertise of pupils in Irish language skills, what can we do to ensure their parents will continue to provide for them in this regard? How can we ensure the children will move on through the education system using the Irish language?

I welcome the Minister and I am sorry I missed his presentation. We are all agreed on the benefits of the rural social schemes. Is there a particular reason for the under-expenditure on the schemes, particularly in view of the fact that many people around the country seemed to be crying out for them? Can the Minister identify the reasons the full voted allocation was not spent on them? I have no difficulty with how he intends to spend the extra money, but will he clarify why the money was not spent on rural social schemes?

Valid questions have been raised, but I will deal first with the rural social scheme, in which 2,600 people are allowed to participate. The question arises of how there has been a saving of €1 million. At the beginning of the year the budget was to provide for 2,600 people on the scheme. The savings arose in the following way. Obviously, we wanted to keep within budget, as one cannot bust the Vote or carry on regardless. Therefore, we could not go over the figure allowed — 2,600. If we did, we might not find it easy to pull back if we were to overspend in some area. We did not have permission to go beyond that number of participants. In order to ensure we would fall within budget, in the early part of the year we did not allow people who had left the scheme to be replaced. We needed to follow this line or we would not have been able to stay within budget. Therefore, if somebody left in February or March, they were not allowed to be replaced until July. We had operated in this way previously to keep within the vote allocation. However, in July when we decided it was all right to fill all of the vacant places and told the Leader companies with vacancies to fill them, it took them longer than anticipated to do so. Despite all the lists, it took longer than we thought it would and as a consequence, we saved €113,541 or 0.2% of the total spend for the year.

The second aspect that led to a saving — this was hard to predict — was that when participants were out sick, we did not have to pay them because they were in receipt of disability benefit. Amazingly, that led to an underspend of €114,704. These two figures explain the total saving of €230,000. However, the big saving was created by the decision not to pay a Christmas bonus. This bonus was provided for in the initial Estimate and by not paying it, there was a saving of €778,934.

We now have the full complement of participants on the scheme. We started the year with 2,600 and will finish it with the same figure, but it took longer than we thought it would to fill some of the places provided. Once we told companies they could fill their places, we had to keep the money to cover the cost. We could not tell people to fill vacancies and then not have the money available. My problem is that if people delay in filling places, I must still hold the cash. I will never understand why there are delays in filling places on the rural social scheme because, as I understand it, there is a queue to participate in every scheme.

On the issue of what we are doing with the money, let me first explain that if we were dealing with big subheads such as that for third level education, we would not need a Supplementary Estimate for a sum of €1 million. It all depends on the size of the Vote involved. This Vote involves a small sum of approximately €944,000. Therefore, the percentage involved with the provision of a further €1 million is huge. We started in 2006, in which year €1 million was provided in the Vote but there was an underspend. In 2007 we provided €1 million but in a Supplementary Estimate a sum of €449,000 was taken away because, again, there had been an underspend. Last year we provided €992,000 and the outturn was €1.3 million. This year we provided €994,000 and the outturn is the €994,000 plus the Supplementary Estimate figure. This helps to meet the cost of Higher Education Authority payments of €1.2 million — the payments to third level institutions for the provision of approved third level courses. The Kings Inns receives €364,000 for the provision of intensive short courses for lawyer linguists which we need if we are to fulfil our obligations in the European Union. It also helps to meet the salary payments to three translators based in Brussels — €176,000 — and provides for the cost of two short-term intensive courses on the translation into Irish of legal documents such as statutory instruments — a constitutional obligation — of €198,000. Therefore, all of the money is used for courses, apart from the payments to the translators based in Brussels.

Deputy White asked what was meant by co-decision. When we received official status for the Irish language in the European Union, it was decided that only co-decisions — between the European Commission, the Council and the Parliament — would be translated. We now expect there will be more co-decisions than ever before under the Lisbon treaty. This will create a greater volume of documents to be translated.

There was general cross-party support for the upgrading of the status of the Irish language in the European Union. I was concerned at the time about what would be involved and remember coming under ferocious pressure and being asked why I was not doing this faster and did not seek a simple declaration. I remember also suggesting in the Dáil that we not rush into it because once we received such status, it would bring headaches with it, particularly with regard to the need for translation facilities. I gave that warning at the time, but an all-party motion was tabled in the Dáil to seek such status immediately. We did this and my departmental officials and I have been left to deliver on what we asked for and ensure we have the people to do so. We cannot ask for something and then not facilitate its delivery when we get it.

It is in the interest of the country that we train all these people in order that we will have top quality translators. I have just returned from a visit to Foras na Gaeilge where I presented further certificates to accredited translators. They presented me with a memory stick and a letter. To cut costs dramatically, they are using modern technology in order that if something is translated anywhere, it will never have to be translated again. We all know that in legal documents, annual reports, county plans and so on the same language is used over and over again. I suggest a case be made to have software developed to start an international industry in this area. Translators are using translated documents to develop software as a translation resource. If this has happened before, a document can be submitted and it will say what has been translated and will translate the document. All that needs to be done is to fill in the information that was not previously translated. As this database is built up it will result in a decreased need for information to be translated. For instance with regard to legislation, much of the substance of legislation is used repeatedly. This will mean that costs will be reduced dramatically. To a certain extent whatever costs are incurred now can be regarded as start-up costs but by using the technology the cost of translation could become a minor cost. I asked if the experts would be willing to explain the system to Members of the Oireachtas about the technological developments and software for assisted translation. It might be very interesting in some forum — perhaps this committee — to have the experts discuss the technological development in this science of assisted translation. Not only does this apply to Ireland but there is more awareness globally of languages and the need to provide information in various languages. Those of us selling abroad should always sell in the buyer's language and never in the seller's language. The development of these skills in Ireland is very important as it would be an asset when selling abroad to be able to produce information in the language of another country. A broader discussion is called for on this subject.

I am sorry Deputy Wall is not present because he touched on a central point. There has been a significant growth in the number of gaelscoileanna and in the numbers of people living outside the Gaeltacht but who are interested in the Irish language. However, in the case of the gaelscoileanna it is unfortunate this growth has not been translated into communities who speak Irish outside school. It should be perfectly natural for the children attending gaelscoileanna to have bilingual lives for the rest of their lives. It is a waste of a resource when they all come out and never use Irish again because there is nowhere to use it.

This leads to the final question as to when the 20-year strategy for the Irish language will be published. I hope this will be provided to the committee within the week and it will then be up to the committee to debate the strategy. My preference is that this would take place within the next month.

An bhfuil sé curtha ar fáil?

Beidh sé ar fáil laistigh de dhá lá. Beidh sé againn an tseachtain seo.

Dréacht phlean, an ea?

Sea, beidh sé againn.

An mbeidh cóip ar fáil do gach Teachta?

Bhí sé i gceist agam é a chur ar fáil do rúnaí an choiste i dtosach, ach tá sé i gceist agam cóip a scaipeadh ar chuile Teachta agus Seanadóir. I intend making one available to every Member of the Oireachtas. The wider the dissemination, the better.

Beidh sé le plé istigh anseo, and é sin atá i gceist?

Yes. It is not for me to determine the dates for the committee meeting. It is not a very long document. It deals with headline issues over 20 years. It sets a clear framework. I would rather the work was progressed. I would be delighted if it were possible to have the meeting or meetings to discuss it with the committee if possible in December and if not, in early January. I do not want it to go on for months. I ask the committee's indulgence and hope it could be done thoroughly but speedily.

Beidh sé againn roimh Dé hAoine.

We are facing the worst economic situation in the country for 50 years. Next week when people collect their social welfare payments they will not collect their Christmas bonuses. This translation of documents and training of translators will do more damage to the Irish language than anything else because of the cost factor involved. It is wrong.

Farmers and others in rural Ireland are going through a very difficult time and that €1million might have taken on a few more people on the rural social scheme. It has been brought to my attention and I do not know whether it is true. It is said that children in fourth and fifth classes find it very difficult to cope in the gaelscoileanna and many of them want to go back into English-speaking schools. Can the Minister confirm this assertion? It may be a subject for further discussion when the facts are known.

I am unable to comment on the Deputy's second question because I have never heard that to be the case. Normally the gaelscoileanna are bursting at the seams and the problem is to get a child into one rather than children leaving them.

That does not seem to be the case now.

That may be so. There has been migration between ordinary Irish-speaking schools in the Gaeltacht because parents have opinions about teachers but the same occurs in the case of English-speaking schools all around the country. It can be seen in rural areas where one school becomes denuded and another school is bursting at the seams in adjacent parishes or even in the same parish. It would seem to be the case that word goes out for or against particular schools and this migration occurs. I never heard of the situation as referred to by Deputy Ring. I am not saying it is not the case but I am unable to comment as I do not have the facts. I am not aware of any general migration out of gaelscoileanna and I have only heard of the opposite occurring.

We had a lengthy discussion last week on the translation of documents. If members of this committee believe the policy in the Act is wrong and if this committee can reach consensus on the issue, I will listen. However, it would be irrational to have a first official constitutional language and not provide at least basic documents in that language. That is the dilemma. I have often said that if it were not to be treated as a constitutional official language by not having any documentation in that language, the simple answer would be to amend the Constitution. However, so long as it is an official language we are caught with a minimum requirement to provide services in that language. If this was not provided, the Government would be open to a court challenge at all times because Irish would not be treated as the first official language. This issue is not an Éamon Ó Cuív invention — as is often portrayed in the media. All I can do is be guided by the legal advice I am given.

Everybody regarded this as a great idea but now they are beginning to see the cost factor.

There is no cost factor. We thrashed out this issue at the last meeting. I do not accept that, for the reasons I outlined clearly at the last meeting and I brought the documents with me to the committee. Nobody cares about costs he or she cannot see or cannot accurately count but people always become very excited about some small cost that is visible to them. The reality is that 80% to 90% of the cost of producing documents is in producing the final draft from the first draft. It is difficult to work out how many staff spent how much time reading and I am aware of this cost in my Department. The discussion documents, not even policy documents, I receive in English are four times thicker. Translation has made the documents shorter which means the higher cost to compose the document and produce all the drafts has all been saved because the document is shorter than otherwise. A document that is half as long is two and a half times cheaper to have it translated.

I will conclude the discussion at this point. Deputy Ring has raised what is obviously a legitimate issue and we will return to it. The committee will meet next week and it will discuss how to deal with the Minister's request about the strategy. While it will be difficult to meet the deadline of December, we shall do our best. I thank the Minister and members of the committee for their questions.

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