Select Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Feb 2022

Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)

Chairman

We have a quorum. I remind members who are participating remotely to keep their devices on mute until they are invited to speak and also, where possible, to have their cameras switched on. Please be mindful that we are in public session. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which the Parliament is choosing to sit, namely Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. For members who are present in the meeting room, we ask them to keep their masks on until they are speaking themselves.

The Dáil on 15 December 2021 ordered that the Revised Estimates for public services in respect of the following Votes be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth; and Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. In today's meeting the select committee will consider these Estimates and report back to the Dáil. I remind members that only matters relevant to the Revised Estimates can be discussed at this meeting.

I welcome the Minister. We thank him and his officials for being here with us today and for all the briefing material that was provided in advance, which has been circulated to members. Accompanying the Minister are Ms Carol Baxter, assistant secretary, Ms Laura McGarrigle, assistant secretary, Ms Anne Marie Brooks, assistant secretary, Mr. Dermot Ryan, assistant secretary, and Mr. Gordon Gaffney, principal officer. I will invite the Minister to make an opening statement and will then open it up to questions from the members. Each member has ten minutes for questions and answers.

Witness are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Chair to ensure privilege is not abused. Therefore if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I will hand over to the Minister for his opening statement.

Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Roderic O'Gorman)

I thank the Chair. I am grateful to my colleagues here for their assistance in compiling the detailed briefing for both myself and the committee. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Revised Estimates for my Department for 2022, including that of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. As members will have seen from the briefing material provided to them last week, my Department is projected to spend €2.074 billion on current expenditure and €33 million on capital expenditure during 2022. This represents an increase of €189 million or 10% over the 2021 Revised Estimate. In addition, my Department has a further €3.2 million allocation for capital carryover.

The 2022 allocation covers financial provision for a range of key services in respect of children and young people, such as Tusla, early years and youth services. There are also allocations in other key work streams, which include provision of accommodation for international protection seekers and refugee resettlement and other services for international protection applicants. Legacy issues in relation to mother and baby institutions, and birth information and tracing are also funded. In addition, there are allocations towards the areas of equality, integration and inclusion. This includes funding towards gender equality, human rights, LGBTI+ issues, Traveller and Roma issues, migrant integration and disability policy.

In 2021, we again faced the challenge of Covid-19. As with 2020, the last year again saw significant impact from the pandemic on the work of my Department and its agencies. The early learning and care sector, Tusla, youth services, equality and international protection accommodation have been particularly affected. However, it is important that I acknowledge the tremendous efforts which continue to be made across the whole of our sector in response to the pandemic. It has been an extremely challenging time for us all and hopefully 2022 will see us start to normalise life with our focus moving from reactive towards more developmental in nature.

To outline my Department’s Vote in more detail, I have provided the select committee with details of the funding allocations across the different programme areas, along with a summary by subhead, including details of changes over the 2021 figures. In terms of Vote spending, three areas of the Vote represent 89% of the Department’s allocation, namely Tusla, accounting for 43%, early years programmes and schemes, accounting for 34%, and international protection accommodation, accounting for 12% of the overall allocation. I will now briefly address these areas in turn.

My Department’s Estimate includes provision of €898 million for Tusla, an increase of €40.5 million or 5% over the 2021 allocation. This funding will allow Tusla to respond to a number of challenges such as addressing increasing demand for their services and developing their mainstream residential services for children. The budget will allow for the improvement of ICT systems and data management processes, particularly in the aftermath of the HSE cyber attack in May of last year. It will also allow for additional posts to be funded, including 100 front-line staff and 48 residential care workers, and to meet expected demand arising from forthcoming birth information and tracing legislation.

It will allow Tusla to support the community and voluntary sector, which delivers services on its behalf. It will maintain support for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence services and address recommendations arising from Tusla’s accommodation review of refuge provision.

Another significant portion of my Department’s spending is on early learning and care, which has an overall allocation of €716 million - a €78 million increase on the 2021 allocation. The funding requirements for this area have been significantly impacted by Covid. Funding in 2022 allows my Department to continue to meet the costs of the two-year early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme and the associated access and inclusion model, AIM, which supports children with additional needs to access the ECCE programme. The allocation for the national childcare scheme, NCS, will meet the costs of delivering the scheme and support the sustainability and operation of the early learning and care, ELC, and school age childcare, SAC, sector. The funding provided in 2022 will also allow for the extension of the age of eligibility to access the NCS universal subsidy to 15 years, and this will be made available to all families.

Funding is also being allocated to introduce a new core funding model from the autumn. Under the new scheme, in return for a commitment that fees to parents will not increase, providers will be supported in meeting their operating costs, including increased costs related to improved quality measures. The funding will support the quality of services by better enabling providers to attract and retain qualified staff and establish career structures. We will introduce or improve other features of provision that contribute to quality, such as non-contact time, planning, training, and curriculum implementation. The additional investment will also support the programme for Government commitment to support the drawing up of an employment regulation order.

The allocation for costs associated with the provision of accommodation for international protection seekers has seen an increase of €41 million to €259 million in 2022. The allocation includes funding towards implementing the recommendations of the White Paper to end direct provision and to establish a new international protection support service. For the first time, this allocation has a capital allocation, amounting to €12.5 million, to progress this key priority.

International protection seekers’ accommodation is a demand-led service with requirements for accommodation and services increasing as numbers of new international protection applications increase. In the latter half of 2021 there has been a sharp increase in the number of new arrivals seeking international protection accommodation in Ireland, with more than 2,260 new arrivals in the period from 1 November 2021 to 30 January 2022. This funding will continue to provide accommodation to those seeking international protection and to cover the projected increase of costs. This estimate is based on the likelihood that there will be pent-up demand for international protection accommodation in 2022, as previously closed off routes reopen. A new procurement competition for accommodation is now under way to reduce reliance on short-term emergency accommodation and to ensure that the Department has sufficient accommodation capacity.

As well as providing for increased demand, I am progressing my pledge to replace the current system with one that respects the dignity of those seeking international protection. I established a transition team in my Department last year to drive the implementation of this new model on a phased basis to 2024. This year, the initial capital allocation of €12.5 million will be used for the acquisition of accommodation with a focus on acquiring turnkey properties and properties that require upgrading or renovations. Current funding will provide for the roll-out of an approved housing body scheme so that they can begin to bring properties on stream and develop a pipeline for accommodation. It will also be used to roll out a rent-a-room scheme and source private tenancies to increase the availability of accommodation. I have a commitment from within the national development plan that as capital requirements in this area increase, additional funding will be provided to progress this important priority action area.

With the rest of the Vote, there are of course other policy areas that will be progressed in 2022. The 2022 Estimates contain provisions to support overall management of the Government’s action plan for responding to the needs of former residents of mother and baby and county home institutions. This includes certain key actions, including at the Tuam site on foot of the proposed certain institutional burials (authorised interventions) legislation, research and commemoration initiatives. My Department is working on information and tracing legislation to allow access to birth information for adopted persons and additional funding has been provided in the Estimates to Tusla and the Adoption Authority of Ireland to support the implementation of this legislation.

The 2022 Estimates will allow me to continue to provide funding in the important areas of equality, disability, inclusion and integration. These are very significant and challenging areas and the Vote includes funding streams for areas such as the National Disability Authority, refugee and migrant integration, gender equality, LGBTI+ and Traveller and Roma initiatives. As I mentioned earlier, these areas are in receipt of additional funding in 2022.

The 2022 Estimates have seen an increase of €3.5 million for youth services to more than €73 million. This level of funding will support the delivery by the voluntary youth work sector of a range of youth work programmes and services for all young people, including those from disadvantaged communities. I believe that the youth sector is essential to reach and address the most marginalised and vulnerable young people.

In conclusion, the significant increase in resources under my Department’s Vote for 2022 allows for the continuation of vital services to some of our most disadvantaged communities while providing for a number of important opportunities for a targeted development and improvement of services. Deputies may be assured that I will continue to work closely with all sectors and stakeholders, as we strive to maximise outcomes from the resources being considered today. I thank the Chair and members for their attention and I will be pleased to respond to questions.

Chairman

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I am contributing from within Leinster House. I thank the Minister for that outline of the revised Estimates. There is much to welcome, particularly the increases as outlined by the Minister. The capital allocation for international protection seekers is very welcome also.

I have a number of questions related to adequacy of funding, and whether the increases the Minister has described are sufficient to meet the greatly enhanced commitments for his Department.

The increase under the Tusla section is welcome but I am conscious that the Minister has said he will need to fund quite a significant number of additional posts arising from the expected increased demand due to the forthcoming birth information and tracing legislation. This committee was very actively engaged in the pre-legislative scrutiny of the Birth Information and Tracing Bill 2022. I believe I can say that it is a matter of disappointment for us as members of the committee that the recommendation we made as to the mode of communication with adopted persons where a birth parent has expressed a no-contact preference. That recommendation was not taken up by the Minister's Department in the shape of the legislation. That is disappointing to us. It is relevant in the Estimates because we had recommended the communication would be by way of registered post. I am conscious there would be a significantly increased cost with regard to staff time in the alternative method of communication by phone or by meeting, which is provided for in the Bill. Will the Minister say whether there is sufficient funding here? The Minister is saying 100 additional front-line staff, but will that be enough to meet the demands coming from the new legislation?

On the early years funding allocations the Minister has spoken about the new core funding model. Clearly, huge expectation has built up among parents, providers and staff on that, and that it will be in place from the autumn so we would actually see significant reductions in childcare fees for parents. It is a huge issue across my constituency in Dublin Bay South. The cost of childcare is a huge issue for everyone. The Minister has described an increase of just over 10%. Will this be an adequate allocation to really create that radical change in the core funding model that parents, providers and staff are all expecting in the childcare and early years education sector in the autumn? Perhaps the Minister will say more on that.

On the mother and baby homes, the Minister does not refer in his speech to the amount that will be needed for setting up the redress scheme. Again, we are expecting to see that redress scheme for survivors in place by the autumn. I am aware that at page 31 there is a more detailed document where the set-up costs are described as being provided for within the funding that the Minister has outlined. I believe that the Minister's document says that the financial payments will be allocated separately, which is the actual payment of redress to survivors of mother and baby homes. Will the Minister expand on where that is going to come from, whether it will be within this year's allocation, or will it be pushed forward into the budget for 2023?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

A significant additional investment overall in Tusla this year of more than €41 million extra follows on from the largest ever increase Tusla received last year of €66 million.

Much of that focused on the recruitment of additional staff. As the Deputy said, there will be more than 280 new staff recruited to Tusla in 2022, with 100 of them front-line staff and 48 of them related to residential placements, with which we know there is a significant issue.

In terms of how that breaks down to resourcing the information and tracing legislation, 30 of those staff will be allocated to the implementation of the information and tracing legislation. A genealogist is included in that group thus recognising that a wider range of skills and expertise are needed within Tusla to fully implement the range of tasks and responsibilities that it will have. Tusla will be better empowered to undertake tracing with the statutory basis that it will be given under the information and tracing legislation. I know from my engagement with groups who represent adopted people, they felt that the genealogist skills was one that the organisation lacked, and that is something which is recognised by myself and the chief executive.

Please note that we have provided an extra allocation to the Adoption Authority of Ireland of €1.3 million to allow it to undertake its functions under the information and tracing legislation. That will allow for the hiring of additional staff, a new head of records, a new archivist, and new administrative staff to provide support. The money allocated to AAI and Tusla will support both organisations with the information campaign that will be rolled out, once the legislation is passed, to inform parents, adopted people and people who have questions about their birth and origin, and about their rights under the provision of the new legislation.

On the provision of core funding under the early years allocation, the allocation has been significantly increased and the central part of that is core funding. A sum of €16 million has been provided this year and that will equate in a full year, in 2023, to €207 million.

In terms of adequacy, core funding supports services because we recognise that many services struggle in terms of their own sustainability. We want to enable the payment of better wages for staff. We want to be able to deliver on the pay scales that we believe will be provided by the Joint Labour Committee and the employment regulation order, which I hope will be agreed soon between employer and employee representatives but that requires the State stepping up with this very significant additional investment. The quid pro quo for that, with services, is the agreement to freeze fees. For the first time in the history of the State, we now have a mechanism to stop the increase in fees that we had seen, particularly dramatically prior to Covid. If one considers the level of fee increases in the last two years, they have actually been quite small. In 2021, it was only about a 1% fee increase on average. That is primarily because of the very significant State support that was provided through the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, which meant that services were sustainable and did not have to increase their fees. The EWSS will be withdrawn by the end of April. The new core funding will kick in from September of next year. The allocation also contains a bridging or transition fund of €37 million, which will continue to support the sustainability of services in May to August of this year.

We are very clear that this is not the end of our investment in this area because, as the Deputy rightly said, we need to ensure we can cut the cost and enhance affordability for parents. The first step towards that is a fee freeze and the next stop is increased investment in the national childcare scheme, NCS, that directs subventions parents receive. I have been very clear, and I think that all three parties in government are very clear, that in the next budget and in following budgets we want to see significant additional investment in the NCS. We saw the beginning of that this year in terms of the removal of the wraparound hours, which will kick in spring and benefit about 5,000 children from disadvantaged families. We will see the next part of that in September of this year when the increase of the universal subvention from three up to 15 years kicks in, which will benefit thousands of families. We are very clear that more money will continue to go into the NCS and because we will now have a fee freeze, parents will see the difference. I say that because, as we saw in previous years, when the Government put more money into the NCS it was immediately eroded by fee increases that service providers implemented.

Finally, in terms of redress, the allocation for redress is not contained in these Estimates. It will be the subject of a Revised Estimate, I imagine, for 2022 and then, I suppose, the subhead will be built in from budget 2023 onwards. The final package on redress was not agreed at the time of the budget. As members will know, we announced it in November of this year following the budget. We hope to be in a position to enable people to start to draw down payments in 2022 about which I am absolutely determined. I will work with the committee and everyone else to make sure the legislation gets through the Oireachtas as quickly as possible but at that point, it will be the subject, I imagine, of a supplementary Estimate.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Survivors are keen to have the redress scheme up and running as soon as possible and we will all work constructively with the Department on that. Is it possible to have interim payments made to survivors?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

Under the current allocation, I do not have a budgetary line for interim payments right now. I will still continue to work with the committee and Deputies as we bring this legislation through.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I want to pick up on a few issues. In these revised Estimates, does the Minister believe there is enough in terms of safety to deal with the challenge that private services pose to Tusla? Over recent years there has been a significant growth in the private services used by Tusla in residential and foster care. These are more expensive services than we get from Tusla units and foster carers. They are more vulnerable to price increases and shocks. Also, private residential units are not covered by HIQA so we do not have the same level of oversight. There is general inflation and I am concerned that it will be used as an opportunity to increase prices. That means one will be left with young people in a private care that, realistically, Tusla can no longer afford. However, it would be devastating to that young person's care plan and placement to move him or her out.

I wish to discuss the private foster care issue. Private foster care placements cost between three and three and a half times as much as a Tusla placement. That drains the budget for Tusla and makes its recruitment and service development harder to achieve within budget. Ultimately, that creates a situation where there is going to be greater demand for the private placements to fill even bigger gaps in Tusla and so on. In addition, this becomes self-fulfilling and self-replicating. Can the Minister tell us what he is doing to limit the amount that Tusla spends on private services that are a structural weakness within Tusla's current arrangements?

There is a commitment in the programme of Government to provide inhouse therapeutic services within Tusla. Is there sufficient room in these Estimates to develop the services in the coming months?

The failings of the child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, have become very public. They are well known and have been well discussed but they are certainly becoming very public. I think that inhouse therapeutic services are an essential element to provide very deeply traumatised and hurt young people in care with the appropriate services that they need.

Chairman

Issues concerning CAMHS do not fall within the scope of these Estimates.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I appreciate that, but I am interested in the development of in-house therapeutic services within Tusla as an alternative to CAMHS. I am seeking to ensure that there is a budget for that commitment in the programme for Government.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I share the Deputy's concern about the very significant reliance by Tusla on private services, both for private residential and foster services. I think there is a role for them, but it should be to deal with sudden spikes in demand rather than being a central element of provision. Over the years, the private sector has had to become too great an element of the central provision of Tusla services. I think that is something Tusla recognises. One of the things I have been able to do this year, with the extra €41 million that is being invested in Tusla, is ensure that €3 million of that goes to Tusla residential care for the enhancement of mainstream residential care provision. As I noted, that will include the hiring of 48 additional staff for mainstream residential care. That is an important enhanced investment in Tusla's own capacity to provide residential care placements.

As we know, Tusla also significantly relies on the community and voluntary sector for residential care placements. Some of the additional €6 million that is being provided under these Estimates to the community and voluntary sector, for which Tusla provides finance, will also no doubt support enhanced provision of residential care in the community and voluntary sector. We identified this as an issue and it is one we are seeking to address. However, it will not be solved in one budget. as I am sure the Deputy will understand. The enhancement of Tusla's own ability to provide residential care placements is very important. We are definitively investing in that in this year's budget.

There is a commitment in the programme for Government to develop in-house therapeutic services. I visited the Dublin north central therapeutic hub before Christmas. I met with the team there, both in its headquarters and its community building on Manor Street. I saw the benefit of such intensive supports for young people who have come to Tusla's attention. I am pleased we have been able to dedicate part of the €41 million to supporting that service. Some €700,000 is being provided under Tusla's business plan this year for the enhancement of therapeutic services for children in care. The pay element of that will cover the cost of hiring eight whole-time equivalent staff specifically in that area.

There are also a number of other mandates for Tusla under its business plan this year. The mapping of all existing Tusla and Tusla-commissioned therapeutic services has been revised into a great framework for therapeutic services for children. There is a requirement for a multidisciplinary assessment and care plan for children who require therapeutic services as well. To be able to provide a similar hub in all Tusla regions will require sustained investment but we are making a start on that. It is an enhancement of Tusla services, to which I am committed.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I welcome the Minister and his officials who are joining us today to discuss the Revised Estimates. I will start with the cost of childcare. I think everyone recognises that parents pay far too much for the service they get. I commend the Minister and his officials on their efforts to reduce costs substantially in a way that will be impactful for all parents. When he was before this committee previously, the Minister mentioned that an expert group was reviewing the funding model and specifically looking at targeted areas in which additional funding could be put to use for those who are at a disadvantage compared with others who can afford the cost of childcare. I ask the Minister to provide an update on the options the expert group is working on and proposing to address the issue and alleviate some of the burden on parents.

I welcome the provision of an additional €40.5 million for Tusla. Will a proportion of that be allocated to the family resource programme or any capital projects? I note that in 2021 there was an underspend of €3.5 million in the Department's capital allocation. I would like to understand how that happened. Was it due to delays to some projects?

The third issue I raise relates to the international protection accommodation services support. I welcome the establishment of the service and the capital support in the region of €12.5 million that was announced. For what specifically will this fund be used? What types of accommodation is the Department looking at in terms of build or modular examples? I would like to get an understanding of that on the basis that we are in a housing crisis and there are constraints, including skills shortages.

I know the mental health youth task force, the Pathfinder project, is a cross-departmental project led by the Department of Health and the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. There has been a lack of action on the project since its establishment in 2016. As a member of the Cabinet, I ask the Minister to ensure some focus is placed on this issue in 2022 and that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth forms part of the overall cross-departmental approach in order to implement long-lasting change around youth mental health. I know the Minister is passionate about this issue and we all want to make an important contribution in this area. I ask for support for it, including through the Minister's Department.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

On the cost of childcare, the Deputy is absolutely right that childcare is too expensive in this country. Parents pay too much and staff in childcare are not paid enough. That is something we are seeking to resolve. We are taking a step-by-step approach to the issue. We made the call that this year we would focus on supporting services to better pay their staff because we are seeing a huge turnover in staff at the moment. Young people - let us be honest, it is young women - who study for three or four years to get a level 7 or level 8 qualification start in childcare and find they are being paid less than they were in the temporary or part-time jobs they were doing to support themselves at university. That is not sustainable and it is the reason we are looking at the issue. We have established a joint labour committee for the sector and we are seeking an employment regulation order to set a payscale for the different levels, such as entry level, room leader level and manager level, and to have those implemented.

Many service providers are just breaking even and some are not even breaking even. They need additional support. That is why we have provided the core funding. That was one of the recommendations of the expert group. We engaged with the group while it was doing its work and actually brought in core funding before the group reported because we knew it would be central to the report. Rather than waiting for budget 2023, which would have meant waiting for another year, we brought in core funding this year before the expert group reported.

Core funding is about providing sustainability to the services and better pay for staff. In exchange for that, providers must provide a fee freeze so that we do not see continued increases in fees for parents. That is only step one. Step two is the extra investment in the NCS. That was also advised by the expert group, which made a number of suggestions on what we can do with the NCS. One of these was to get rid of the wraparound hours. We are doing that in this year's budget. A second recommendation was to extend the universality of the NCS from the age of three up to the age of 15. Again, we did that in this year's budget. Another recommendation was the introduction of an additional premium for families with multiple children in childcare. We will look at that for next year's budget.

The other step is to broaden the universal subvention, which is 50 cent per year at the moment, and look at what will happen if it is increased. There are a range of options. As I have stated, the work we have to do to make childcare more affordable is not just in the budget this year; it is a continued piece of work. What I have heard clearly from all three party leaders is that there is full commitment across the Government to this investment. We have to make childcare more affordable for parents.

Another key element of the recommendations of the expert group was the idea of a DEIS model for childcare. That would provide the ability to put in enhanced supports for children from disadvantaged communities. That can take several forms, such as the access and inclusion model, AIM, approach, which supports children with disabilities. That comes in seven different levels. Some of them are universal, while others are more targeted to a particular service. We might design something like that in the context of our DEIS approach. Again, I hope to begin work in the budget next year. It will take several years before it is fully rolled out but it is a really positive step, recognising that the education of children does not begin in junior infants any more; it begins in the ECCE programme and we have to support that. Certainly, I am aware in my role as Minister with responsibility for equality that, for example, 10% fewer Traveller children undertake the free two-year pre-school ECCE programme compared with children from the settled community. Education disadvantage is being built in there from day one. That is something we have to combat and I am considering it in the context of the Traveller and Roma education strategy.

In the context of family resource centres, the capital budget this year for Tusla is not huge. It is mainly focused on the maintenance and upgrading of its existing centres. Tusla is currently doing a big piece of work looking at family supports that it provides throughout the country. I know calls for family resource centres have come from the constituency of the Deputy and other constituencies throughout the country. One of the issues we are considering is what additional family support services, rather than centres, can be provided and whether that can address some of the needs in some of these communities. That work is being done at the moment between Tusla and my Department. When it is complete, we can take a step back and look at where or if we are putting in additional family resource centres or perhaps just providing additional services in a particular community.

Finally, in terms of the international protection support service, IPSS, we are creating to help end direct provision, the capital spend is €12.5 million. This year, that will primarily be used for purchasing existing units. We are looking at several larger units, that is, seven, eight, nine or ten bedroom units, that will be used for the accommodation of single persons, but we will also be purchasing several two or three bedroom units. As regards where we are, part of the significant current investment that is provided for the IPSS under this budget will be used to create new funding streams for approved housing bodies, AHBs, for which they can bid, as they can at the moment, and use to start to construct units. We are taking a multipronged approach to this. We are doing some purchase right now, but we are also providing money for AHBs to build units themselves for community-based accommodation, that is, phase 2 accommodation. It is to be hoped that later this year we can start to move towards the planning of phase 1 accommodation, which is the reception and integration centres. It is important to note there is a strong commitment in the national development plan to increasing and providing additional capital funding as we need it in order to end direct provision by the end of 2024.

The pathfinder project is primarily led through the Department of Health. I am happy to engage with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, on whether there is anything my Department can do to assist in that, but it is primarily led through health. I am acutely aware of the importance of supporting all measures to enhance the mental health of young people. Obviously, the youth services that are funded by my Department - we have a significant €5 million increase in investment this year - are very important to supporting universal service but, in particular, targeted services, such as UBU Your Place Your Space, in areas of high disadvantage. We will get eight new services opened this year, which is really positive, but we are looking at ways of better linking in youth services with wider mental health services. In particular the early intervention part is so important before reaching a situation where CAMHS or other higher degree interventions are needed.

Deputy Mark Ward

I am keeping one eye on the television screen because I am due in the Dáil Chamber any minute now. I ask the Chairman to bear with me if I have to leave. I thank the Minister for taking the time to meet the committee.

I refer to the assisted decision-making (capacity) (amendment) Bill on which the committee will be carrying out pre-legislative scrutiny. Key to this is the establishment of the decision support service, DSS. I know €5.8 million was allocated in the budget for this service. It is not due to be established until the middle of the year. Is it on course to be established in mid-2022? Has work been done to see whether the original budget allocation of €5.8 million is still adequate for the service?

I do not know whether the Minister can hear me. I have another couple of questions.

Chairman

The Deputy can ask all his questions together.

Deputy Mark Ward

I will ask all my questions now. I was not sure whether I could be heard; I was getting feedback over the system. I refer to the Minister's remarks in respect of 100 new front-line staff for Tusla. In that context, what will be the allocation towards domestic violence? As the Minister is aware, it has been well-documented, sadly, that there has been an increase in demand for domestic violence services. I note that his opening statement basically stated support for these services will be maintained. It is okay to maintain support, but will the additional demand for these services be met?

I refer to the 48 residential care workers in Tusla. I got an answer on this only last week, it having been raised with me. Will the provision of 48 new residential care workers stop vulnerable children being placed into apartments, hotel rooms and holiday chalets? Currently, between nine and 11 vulnerable children are placed into these facilities each month.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank the Deputy. The ability for the decision support service to be up and running in June is partly reliant on the committee and its good work in terms of getting pre-legislative scrutiny done quickly. I appreciate its support in that regard. I am absolutely committed to getting it up and running for June. The Deputy cited the 2021 figure for 2022. We have significantly increased that. We actually have €7.3 million in the DSS, an increase of €1.5 million. That is a recognition that once June comes, the service will be extremely busy. It will be providing a range of skills and advice to people who require assistance with the important life decisions they have to make. It is central to our commitments under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities to have the DSS established. It is also very important in terms of getting rid of the whole idea of wardship, which is the incredibly outdated system that operates now and is being challenged in the courts at the moment. Significant additional budget has been provided, staff are in place and it is working as kind of a subset of the Mental Health Commission but in terms of having the legislative power to start to be in a position to provide people with this advice, I am really hoping to get that done by June. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and I are committed to getting it through the Houses as quickly as possible once pre-legislative scrutiny is completed.

As regards the additional staff for domestic, sexual and gender-base violence, DSGBV, as the Deputy is aware, this area is in significant flux because it will move out of my Department and Tusla into the Department of Justice. That follows on from the audit that was done and it is a request made by a significant number of NGOs working in the sector. We have listened to them and are making that change on foot of those requests. As the Deputy is aware, an extra €3 million has been provided by my Department for Tusla for DSGBV this year.

That will bring it from €28 million in budget 2021 to €31 million in budget 2022. That was on foot of an increase of €2.7 million last year. There has been sustained investment in current spending in domestic, sexual, and gender-based violence services since I became Minister.

On the question of staff, Tusla has made the decision to hire a number of specialists in domestic, sexual and gender-based violence for its child protection units in each region in the country. That is because Tusla recognises that where there is a case of domestic, sexual, and gender-based violence, I suppose, the immediate risk of abuse is to the mother. There must be recognition that such action could have major long-term consequences for the children in that relationship as well. That additional investment will not move out of Tusla when the change happens. Even when responsibility for the provision of the refuges and the like move to the new entity under the Department of Justice, Tusla will still have a strong domestic, sexual, and gender-based violence specialism within it, recognising that Tusla will continue to engage, unfortunately, with hundreds or perhaps thousands of families with experience of domestic, sexual, and gender-based violence. It will continue to need expertise in that area, even if it is not in charge of the provision of refuges and rape crisis centres etc. It is a move with some foresight by Tusla and one I really welcome.

There is the question of whether the additional 48 front-line staff in residential care will end the practice mentioned by the Deputy. I am not going to be bold enough to say that will end the practice, although I hope it can see it reduced. We need to reduce that practice and ensure that where a child needs residential care, it is provided in a proper and long-term residential care placement. The Deputy knows that cases are sometimes so urgent that these ad hoc solutions or locations for placement are used but it is not the practice we would like to see continue. It is important that in those cases we at least have the staff to support the young person wherever they are placed. We absolutely want to see permanent residential care run by either Tusla or the community and voluntary sector. I remind the Deputy of what I said to Deputy Costello earlier, which is that there is an extra €3 million for Tusla to enhance its residential care placement capacity this year. That is a positive step.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I thank the Minister and the rest of the delegation for joining us today. I acknowledge the work done by the Minister in securing additional funding and his Department has a really broad remit that provides essential services, all of which need more resources.

I have several points to raise. Under the subhead relating to mother and baby institutions, the increase in allocations for this area are especially welcome. However, the briefing document only mentions Tuam as a site to be examined under the burials Bill, implying that only Tuam is budgeted for when there are, of course, many other known locations of potential mass graves. Will the Minister comment on that or does the budget allow for more sites to be examined? There is also reference to an enhanced model of stakeholder engagement. Given the reported unsatisfactory nature of engagement so far, will the Minister outline what the new model will look like and who is conducting the research and commemoration initiatives referred to?

Many other Deputies have raised the question of early learning and care, and there is again a welcome increase in funding for the area. The committee has discussed child poverty and there has been criticism of the national childcare scheme because it does not account for additional needs faced by disadvantaged families. One of the surprising points to learn was that the single biggest contributing factor to children being in poverty is being part of a lone-parent family. Will there be targeted supports in that regard or will there be an opportunity to address the matter? There are cases where children are not guaranteed access to proper meals and there is a pressing need for targeted programmes in that area.

The Minister's opening statement asserts that funding will support the quality of services by better enabling providers to attract and retain qualified staff in an established career structure. Will the Minister elaborate on how that would happen in practice?

The Minister referenced the funding towards implementing the White Paper to end direct provision. It is almost a year since the White Paper was published. What has been the progress in moving forward on ending direct provision since and how will the allocation of €12.5 million help achieve this?

We all expected to see more reference to dealing with gender-based violence in the statement and the documents. It is mentioned under Tusla's budget but given the necessary focus on the area since Christmas, and with the "RTÉ Investigates" documentary this week, I would have hoped for stronger prioritisation. In response to a parliamentary question last year, the Minister informed me the cost of maintaining a single refuge space is in the region of €100,000 annually. Of course we know that to meet the targets under the Istanbul Convention we would need a huge amount of funding to make a provision for that. Where is the allocation to increase the number of refuge spaces that are very desperately needed, especially in large areas of the country with absolutely no spaces whatever?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

With regard to the allocation for actions under the institutional burials Bill, that legislation is clear in setting up a format of how to identify an area that will be subject to an agency created under the Bill to undertake the recovery and identification of remains. It is accepted by everybody that Tuam will be the first site where such an agency will investigate and the budget exists to start the work on the Tuam site. The Bill is also clear that should other sites meet the requirements of the legislation, an agency could be established for those sites as well. Our Department's primary focus is on advancing the work towards Tuam and the funding to start the work on the agency. It is quite a significant amount of funding of approximately €4 million that is in the budget to start the agency once we get that legislation passed. I hope to publish the new draft of the legislation by the end of this month and introduce it to the Oireachtas shortly afterwards.

On the question of the enhanced model of stakeholder engagement, work is ongoing for a long-term mechanism where the views of the survivor community can be conveyed to the Government. As we know there are a very significant number of groups in the sector, some representing specific issues and others specific areas of the areas of the country. Some may represent survivors of particular institutions. In order for a clear line of communication to be established with a clear understanding of the diverse range of needs that survivors have, we are looking at a range of measures.

The previous Minister had established a collaborative forum that brought together approximately 18 former survivors or family members of former residents of these institutions. We have put forward some proposals to that group on the idea of a survivor advocate or perhaps even considering an advocate model, which would engage with the Government in ascertaining the views of survivors. We hope later this year to bring a final proposal to the Government on this enhanced model of stakeholder engagement.

There are a number of initiatives in this area. There is a commemoration initiative grant whereby groups around the country may apply for a grant for a commemoration initiative they want to undertake with respect to a mother and baby or county institution in an area. My Department does an annual call for those and it can support a range of initiatives. We try very much to be guided by what survivors are looking for and what they think is appropriate with regard to the institution under which they have grouped. There is also a cross-department group between my Department and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage looking at some of the considerations around commemoration, particularly the protection of sites of former institutions.

Work is ongoing between my Department and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

On early learning and care and school-age childcare, the Deputy raised the issue of child poverty. The national childcare scheme, NCS, is a really good scheme. It is a massively enhanced ability of the State to provide financial support. However, as it is operated, and it is only really operating since 2019, issues have arisen. I have engaged with the Chair on this in the Chamber. Most importantly, I have met with many community childcare providers from various parts of the country and listened to the difficulties they are having with certain elements of the NCS. In this year's budget we have removed that provision whereby hours spent in school or in the ECCE programme were deducted from a child's free allocation. The 20-hour allocation for children whose parents were not in education or employment meant they had their school time or ECCE time deducted from their 20 hours a week. Particularly in term time for children attending school-age child care, that was seeing the removal of their entire free allocation. From this spring, that practice will cease, which will be of great advantage. We estimate about 5,000 will be able to benefit from their full 20-hour allocation of free early learning and care or school-age childcare. That is a really important immediate step in terms of addressing issues to do with poverty.

There is a wider measure we can take. I referred to it when I was talking to Deputy Dillon in terms of this idea of a DEIS approach to early learning and care and school-age childcare. It is recommended within the expert group. We are starting work on the design of it now. I would hope in this year's budget to be able to take some initial steps towards provision there. On the provision of hot school meals, the Deputy is right that they are absolutely essential. It does not fall directly within my Department. The Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, has increased the number of schools where that is provided. I am aware of the work the Minister, Deputy Foley, is doing in terms of the very significant increase in the number of DEIS schools for which she has got the investment this year. That is going to help.

In terms of quality, the workforce development plan sets out how we make childcare an attractive career option for individuals. That was launched in December at the same time as the expert group. We will be working to implement that. The key thing is that if we are not paying childcare professionals enough they are not going to join or they are going to leave the sector. That is why we have done core funding and why it is so important.

On the White Paper, the implementation of the vulnerability assessment was really important and something Ireland had been failing to do for years. Some 650 have been undertaken this year and another 900 are in place at the moment. On the establishment of the programme board and the expert advisory group, I met last week with Catherine Day, Lorcan Sirr and David Donoghue. The group will be overseeing my Department, holding our feet to the fire to make sure we are implementing the White Paper. In March of this year I hope to provide a detailed one-year update on the successes we have had in the implementation of the White Paper. We will be able to give some detail on accommodation that we have provided. In 2022 we plan that the first people will start to move out of direct provision centres and into accommodation in the community. It will not be a huge number. It will probably be just in the early 100s this year, but it is that first really important step. To have people living independently in the community is absolutely central to the White Paper model.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

Some of my questions have been answered. On the implementation of the action plan in response to the recommendations from the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes, I want to ask about fast-tracking the medical cards. I have been speaking to survivors. Good quality healthcare is so important here. Maybe the Minister could come back to me on that.

We spoke a lot today about Tusla and funding. Is there going to be any help through Tusla for women and children trying to flee domestic violence? The Minister is launching the public consultation on the Government strategy to combat gender-based violence next week and is committed to providing refuges in the nine counties that do not have one. Carlow is one of them. I have spoken to the Minister about it and have had several meetings with the Minister, Deputy McEntee. When we speak about refuges and wrap-around services, there are significant issues when we come to safe accommodation across the country, including in Carlow and my own area. We need to have proper supports in place working through the local authorities, like education and counselling services. As provision of women's refuges falls under so many different Departments, it is becoming a big issue and so are the services. I am aware that it is under the remit of the Minister, Deputy McEntee. I refer to all the other services involved, such as children's services and local authorities for a mother who needs to be housed. If we do not get all the services right we are going to fall down. Do we need to set up a group or what do we need to do to make sure that all the different Departments are involved? It is not just one are; it is a lot of areas.

I have spoken to the Minister several times about the cost of childcare. I welcome that he is fully understanding of it and knows how much it is costing people. He is addressing the issue of pay for childcare professionals with the funding. These are issues that we really need to look at.

Child poverty has been mentioned. In my own area of Carlow, families and schools have contacted me where children have left school because the mothers had to send them to a school with DEIS status to get the hot meals programme. We have schools that do not quality for DEIS or are trying to get DEIS status. That is another area. We have seen so many cases recently. The cost of living is another area that has really been affected here. Parents have so many bills to pay with the cost of living, whether it is ESB, trying to put petrol in their car, trying to feed children or trying to pay the mortgage. There are huge issues and they are all starting to come together. We need to make sure that we address all areas.

I want to ask about education. It has come to my attention that the education and training board, ETB, and the back to education initiative, BTEI, are not accepting new learners from the Carlow early years training scheme for childcare modules. This means any new participant who is starting on the childcare scheme will not be able to start their level 5 or level 6 childcare module until after September 2022. They used to be able to do it in stages but this is not the case now. The new curriculum participants are not being given the opportunity-----

Chairman

I am sorry, Deputy, that point on education is not relevant to the Estimates.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I think it is important to bring this up today. We are speaking about early childcare professionals. Maybe the Minister would come back to me on it. We need to see what we can do here. We have to make sure to encourage people into the childcare sector. As the Minister said, it is important that we support childcare professionals and attract and retain them. Maybe the Minister could look at that and come back to me.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank the Deputy. On the medical card, the key issue with the enhanced medical card we will provide to 19,000 former residents is that it requires a legislative basis. That has been the case in terms of survivors of the Magdalen institutions and survivors of the industrial schools as well. We need a legislative basis for the provision of a large volume of medical cards. That is why we are looking to move the legislation underpinning the institutions payment scheme as quickly as possible. My official are working on the heads right now and we hope to have them to the committee for pre-legislative scrutiny as quickly as possible.

On the issue of domestic, sexual and gender based violence, DSGBV, apologies to Deputy Cairns that I did not get to answer her question on that. I might cover some of that as well. I will be speaking about in the Dáil later this evening also. The consultation phase of the third national strategy on DSGBV will be launched soon. That is being led by the Department of Justice. Government has taken a strategic approach in that the issue and the Government's response to DSGBV will now be led by the Department of Justice.

The Deputy summarised the reason for that very well when she spoke about many Departments, agencies, local authorities and health services all doing little bits, which reflects fragmentation. We recognised that in the programme for Government. That is why we set up an audit to identify where everything is being done right now and how we can bring it together. The Government has now taken that decision. We will bring it together under the Department of Justice under a new entity that will be operated by that Department. That will mean responsibility for the provision of refuge and those services to which the Deputy referred will not be overseen by my Department or by Tusla. Responsibility for that will be transferred to the Department of Justice. That is a strategic decision the Government has taken, recognising the major challenge we have with domestic, sexual and gender-based violence in this country. Centralising everything under that Department will allow for the delivery of the refuge spaces we need. Everybody recognises we do not have enough refuges or refuge spaces. There are significant parts of the country where counties like the Deputy's do not have such coverage and where in physical areas in larger counties it would take a hour and a half to drive to a refuge, which is an immediate disincentive to someone who might feel in real and desperate need. There is a commitment under the capital allocation scheme, CAS, from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to finance refuge spaces but there is also a recognition that the CAS process is lengthy. That is one of the problems we identified, namely, that it takes such a long time to build a new refuge, as well as there being a lack of spaces. In our response to the accommodation review, which we hope to publish next week, again led by the Minister, Deputy McEntee, through the third national strategy, we will outline how we will address those particular issues.

The Deputy might drop me a note on the details of the child care education issue she highlighted in Carlow, which I will be happy to follow up with my officials.

On child poverty, a key measure being taken is that we are investing in the EU child guarantee, an EU mandated approach to supporting free access to childcare, education and health for children in need. The Government will be submitting its action plan to respond to the EU child guarantee by the end of March. Our response to the EU child guarantee will be located within our wider successor strategy to Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures, BOBF, our all-of-government approach to children and young people. That strategy ended in 2020. We are designing the successor strategy now, addressing child poverty. Making sure again that we have a co-ordinated all-of-government approach to addressing child poverty will be central to the BOBF successor strategy. I will be working with the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, in the Department of Rural and Community Development on the designation of a new child poverty reduction target that the country needs to adopt. That is all those elements covered.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. That concludes our questions. Does the Minister want to make any concluding remarks before we finish?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

No, Chairman. I thank the Deputies for their questions. I also thank my officials for the support in terms of the briefing material.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, we would like to thank the Minister and his officials for being here and for all the information we received in advance of meeting. I also thank the members. That completes the select committee's consideration of the 2022 Revised Estimate for Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Vote 24 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. In accordance with Standing Order 101, a message to this effect will be sent to the Clerk of the Dáil. Is that agreed? Agreed. I also propose we publish the opening statement to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed?