Select Committee on Climate Action díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Apr 2021

Vote 29 - Environment, Climate and Communications (Revised)

Chairman

This meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimate for Vote 29, excluding programme A - communications, which comes under the remit of the Select Committee on Transport and Communications Networks and which will be considered by that committee.

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan. The proposed format of today's meeting is to deal with Vote 29 on a programme-by-programme basis. At the outset the Minister will make his opening statement. We will then consider each of the five programmes separately, with questions from members of the committee.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that they are only able to participate in this meeting if they are physically present on the Leinster House campus. I ask that each member, prior to making his or her contribution to the meeting, will confirm his or her presence on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

I am very glad to be able to set out the Estimates for our Department, which is critical for the future social, economic and environmental development of our State. We have some €152 million in current expenditures and €579 million in capital, with a €37 million capital carryover from the previous year. In total, we are responsible for €768 million. I will take the committee through the Revised Estimate programme by programme and give some details on each.

Programme B - energy - supports my Department in the transformation of Ireland’s energy system to a net zero emissions future. We will do this by delivering energy-efficient measures across the residential, public and business sectors and by enabling the deployment of renewable energy infrastructure. This year the programme provides €18.4 million to cover the operational costs of the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, which is a 50% increase on 2020. This funding will provide the additional staff resources required to deliver the programmes and drive the achievement of our retrofit targets following SEAI’s designation as the national retrofit delivery office. An allocation of €277.7 million will fund sustainable energy programmes. This represents a doubling of the budget compared with 2020 and is the largest amount ever allocated for these schemes. The increased allocation is made possible through carbon tax revenue and additional Exchequer funding.

Within the programme budget allocation, €109 million capital funding is being provided to support lower income households to retrofit their homes and participate in the transition to sustainable energy usage.

This represents an increase of €47 million the 2020 allocation for energy poverty schemes and means that almost half of the total residential and community retrofit budget will support people vulnerable to energy poverty.

The balance of the residential and community retrofit budget, €112.5 million in capital, will be spent on expanding existing SEAI grant schemes and introducing new initiatives including the national retrofit scheme to promote one-stop shops, a heat-pump-ready homes campaign and an enhanced community energy grant scheme. A total of €38 million in capital funding is also being allocated to support energy efficiency and renewable energy projects in the commercial and public sector. This funding is almost double the allocation provided in 2020 and will focus on supporting investments in keeping with the Government’s commitment to reaching net zero emissions by 2050. The energy programme also includes funding of more than €18 million to invest in energy research and green energy alternatives as diversification from fossil fuels continues.

Programme C, on natural resources, manages Ireland’s mineral, hydrocarbon and other geological resources in a sustainable and productive manner. Within this programme, the Department provides high-quality geoscience support for environmental protection and the sustainable development and regulation of Ireland’s natural resources, and manages the health and safety implications of historical mining sites and the oversight of the large-scale offshore gas decommissioning projects. The programme includes an allocation of almost €13 million for Geological Survey Ireland, GSI, services, including €7.5 million for the Tellus and INFOMAR mapping projects.

Geological mapping data from the Tellus project informs land-planning and usage, while INFOMAR is Ireland’s national seabed survey, managed with the Marine Institute and providing groundwater data and modelling on flooding to the Office of Public Works and other relevant stakeholders. This year, the budget for the Tellus project will increase by €500,000 to reflect the resumption of soil sampling for the ground geochemistry component of the project and to support a range of product development projects within Tellus, including smart agriculture, soil carbon research and collaborations on radon and pollutants. A budget of €2.75 million has been allocated to mining services, which will include maintenance and rehabilitation works at historic mining sites.

Programme D concerns inland fisheries. Ireland’s inland fisheries are a precious natural resource that forms part of our cultural, environmental and economic identity. Programme D provides grant funding of €33.3 million to Inland Fisheries Ireland, which is responsible for the conservation, management and regulation of Ireland’s inland fisheries resource. The Department is focused on developing a comprehensive and modern policy framework for inland fisheries and launched a roadmap in January to set out the next stages in this policy development, which will involve stakeholders in reimagining our relationship with this national resource.

Programme E covers climate, environment and waste management areas. My Department provides the lead within Government in driving the climate agenda by providing the overarching policy and legislative framework and by working with Departments and State bodies in the development and implementation of policies and measures to ensure that Ireland is on a pathway to climate neutrality. Programme E also includes promoting the transition to a resource-efficient circular economy in support of ecologically sustainable development, growth and jobs, the protection of our natural environment and, through this, the health and well-being of our citizens.

This programme includes funding of €50 million towards the current and capital costs of the Environmental Protection Agency to further enhance the delivery of its statutory mandate to protect the environment in areas including environmental licensing and enforcement; monitoring, analysis and reporting on the environment; research; and waste management. It also includes increased grant funding of €26.2 million for the remediation of environmentally degraded landfill sites operated by local authorities and private landfills taken into State ownership. A significant proportion of this allocation will be directed towards further remediation works on the landfill site in Kerdiffstown, County Kildare, one of the most complex sites in the programme. The programme also includes an allocation of €10.2 million for waste management initiatives to increase awareness of the necessity to minimise waste and increase recycling.

In the area of climate initiatives, as the committee will be aware, the Government recently approved a landmark climate Bill that will deliver net-zero emissions by 2050 and a 51% reduction in emissions by the end of this decade. The Bill will provide the framework for Ireland to meet its international and EU climate commitments and to become a leader in addressing climate change. It underpins the transition to a climate-resilient, biodiversity-rich, environmentally sustainable and climate-neutral economy.

Within the 2021 Estimates, an allocation of €8.1 million has been made to fund a range of climate initiatives including technical research and modelling, regional climate offices and national dialogue. An increased budget of €11 million is being provided for the just transition fund in 2021 to support innovative projects and the development of the wider midlands region as it transitions away from peat and into a new, green and sustainable economy. Projects will be supported in areas such as sustainable communities, the development of alternative uses of our peatlands and the development of green energy enterprises.

Appropriations-in-aid are income receipts of the Department other than from the Exchequer, totalling €11 million. Receipts mainly comprise mining and petroleum income of €5.2 million and also include €3 million from additional superannuation contributions on public service remuneration and GSI income of €300,000.

I am very happy to take questions from committee members on any detail of the Estimates for programmes B to E within my Department.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. We will commence on programme B, with questions from members in the order in which they raise their hands. I ask that in posing their questions, members clearly indicate the subhead to which they are referring within the programme and to limit their questions to one subhead at a time, allowing other members with questions on that subject to speak before moving on to another subhead. The same procedure will apply for all the programmes. I ask that members also indicate that they are situated on the Leinster House complex.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Minister for appearing before the committee to talk us through the Revised Estimates. For the record, I am in the Leinster House complex. My question relates to subhead B4, the sustainable energy programmes. In 2019, there was a target to improve the energy efficiency of 24,500 homes but just 23,000 were achieved. There is a target of 23,200 homes for 2021. Does the Minister know what the outcome was for 2020? I have concerns because the programme for Government refers to having at least 500,000 homes retrofitted by 2030. If our annual targets are about 25,000 per annum, the Government will obviously fall far short of the target. I understand there have been significant delays because of Covid but it seems the programme is finding it difficult to ramp up.

I will give an example of a lady in my constituency of Wicklow. She is a pensioner who applied in April 2020 for the retrofitting scheme and was finally informed on 31 August 2020 that she was eligible for the scheme. She has not yet been visited by a surveyor. We made contact with SEAI on her behalf and were told it would be 24 months before this lady will even be visited by a surveyor, not to mention get the work done. Her electricity bill for heating amounted to €900 in February. She is trying to do the right thing and to reduce her energy use, and she needs to because the cost is exorbitant and is making life uncomfortable for her, but she is facing a three-year wait before this is done. How does the Minister foresee the programme being able to ramp up to ensure that the needs of people who are trying to do the right thing will be met?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The Deputy is correct. There has been a considerable impact on the warmer homes scheme and retrofitting because of Covid, both last year and this year. I understand that the output in 2020 was 17,600 homes.

We will not know the figures for this year until a later stage. One of the benefits this year compared with previous years is that we did not have a stop-start approach. What we did last summer in the economic stimulus gave a clear signal to the industry that we would run right through the winter and into the new year. Traditionally, there was always a gap and one had to wait to find out what one's budget allocation was going to be and then start again. That stop-start approach was very ineffective. This year was the first time we were due to run right the way through. Until the lockdown, there was every indication that it was really taking off. There was a significant amount of interest and applications. The building industry was starting to scale up to this new opportunity. Obviously, construction was halted because of the lockdowns. It has only just restarted. It is to be hoped that the Covid effect this year will see us closer to meeting our target.

On the issue raised by the Deputy relating to the warmer homes scheme, I presume the lady in question is on the warmer homes scheme and is in one of the low-income categories that allow for 100% grant approval. One of the reasons for the delay is the significant increase in demand for the programme, which one would expect because it is very attractive in many ways. It helps to tackle fuel poverty and provides significant health benefits. It is an excellent programme but such is the demand that there is now a significant backlog and that will be worsened by the likes of the Covid effect in terms of us not having work.

One of the ways in which we are increasing delivery capacity is through having a wider contractor panel. That commenced at the end of last year. We have provided additional resources to the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. It has been allocated an additional 50 full-time staff to give it the capability to turn things around more quickly. There are a variety of measures that have been put in place.

On the wider ten-year perspective, it was always understood and the Oireachtas joint committee previously recognised that it would take several years to build up to delivering 50,000 houses per year. In fact, what we will need to do in the latter part of this decade is to have higher numbers than that in order to deliver 500,000 houses over a decade. One of the key measures to introduce that will be putting in place new financial supports in order that houses in the private sector are able to get low-cost lending. That is one of the initiatives on which we are currently working. It is not provided for in these Estimates but it is one of the other ways in which we are looking to ramp up.

The last thing I will mention is the ramping up of the apprenticeship programmes, for which the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, has responsibility. Getting the workers will be one of the big constraints. Before Covid, that was the biggest obstacle. It is a changed issue now because there is such a high level of unemployment coming out of the Covid crisis. We need a massive expansion in apprenticeships. We need approximately 30,000 new workers in this area to meet our targets, not just in homes but also in Government buildings and commercial property.

The mechanisms I have outlined, namely, consistent funding, increased resources for SEAI, a broader contractor base, increased apprenticeships in this area and low-cost financing options, make me confident that we will meet our targets.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. Does Deputy O'Rourke have a question on programme B?

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Yes. I thank the Chairman. I thank the Minister for the update and the figures he provided. To follow on from the points made by Deputy Whitmore and in terms of the targeting of the retrofit plan to areas of most need, will the warmer homes scheme be the vehicle for that or does the Minister intend to identify areas of deprivation or need through mapping or other means to ensure the welcome resources are targeted at where they are needed?

On the issue of solar photovoltaic, PV, targets, concerns have been raised regarding hold-ups in the system. It has been reported by people working on the front line in this area that projects that requested their second stage payment in August 2020 have not yet received an invoice, eight months later. That stalls things and means they cannot move to design stage. Similarly, I believe none of those involved in the renewable electricity support scheme 1, RESS 1, auction, have yet seen a work programme. I ask the Minister to address that issue.

Finally, I ask the Minister to outline the status of the North-South interconnector and the proposed review of the project. I heard there is a scoping review for a short review. Has that been agreed? What is the timeline in that regard? Has it been resourced?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I thank the Deputy. The targeting of lower-income homes is primarily through the warmer homes scheme, but there is also a significant contribution by and important role for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I cannot remember the exact figures from the other Vote but I am being reliably informed that €65 million is the amount. That is critical because it helps us in a variety of ways. First, we have greater control over it. It is not easy work to do but it allows us to scale up and build industry capability. It is, by definition, in social housing, giving us that benefit. We are also looking at new approaches to the community scheme, which will allow an aggregated approach and area-based approvals. Many community schemes can also be targeted at lower-income communities. Critical in this regard is the role of SEAI with its additional resources to manage that. The political commitment is clear. This is a vehicle to end fuel poverty. We will get to every house. It will take two decades or three decades to do so but at the end of that process, we will have an energy system and housing system that eradicates fuel poverty through this year-in, year-out consistent retrofitting of the housing stock. Doing low-income social housing first is the right strategic approach and that is what that budget allocation of approximately €170 million last year is very much steered towards.

On the solar PV targets, I am not aware of hold-ups in the system such as those the Deputy mentioned. If he sends me details in that regard, I will look into it. There should not be a difficulty in terms of projects looking for second stage payments from 2020. We have done the public consultation on the roll-out of the microgeneration support scheme. I understand from the Department that it is still on track for delivery in June or July at the latest. That is when it is expected. I do not see any reason why it would not be very quickly in operation.

As regards the RESS scheme, I do not go into the details of every project in an auction system as one must keep a certain distance, but my understanding from the officials is that we are on track. The auction system got people to bid in very tightly as, particularly on the solar side, many of the projects were probably on the edge of being able to finance it. However, such are the changes that are occurring in the solar industry that prices keep coming down. I think that helped as well. My understanding is that the vast majority of the projects that got through the auction process will be delivered. That will be the first really significant volume of solar power coming on stream in Ireland. We will move to a second auction, probably early next year. I expect solar to form a significant component of that auction. I am very keen to get as much community-orientated solar and wind power as possible within those projects. The industry is starting to ramp up and, after a long period of false promise, I am confident we will see solar numbers starting to rise.

With regard to the North-South interconnector, we have discussed this in the past. For me, this is probably one of the most critical projects for the whole island. Without it, we lose North-South connectivity and, to my mind, that threatens the whole co-operation on energy that has helped to transform both sides of this island and all parts of the island. We have met renewables targets, North and South. We have everything to gain from further collaboration and co-operation in terms of the single electricity market. However, we need connectivity. The North-South interconnector is the right and critical project.

I was going to say I had a North-South Ministerial Council meeting the other day but I did not. I was in discussions with some Northern colleagues and I had a meeting with Eirgrid as well this week. I was informed there is an ongoing judicial review case up there which is due to be concluded, I understand, early this summer. We need our review process, to which I have committed with my Government colleagues, to be done within that timeframe. The final draft terms are not concluded yet, but they will be very shortly, within the coming days. Very quickly, we will commission someone to complete that review, which is focusing on the range of independent international studies that we have done on this issue, and to look again at all of the analysis presented to get confirmation that the analysis and thinking behind it are still absolutely appropriate and correct. I am very keen that we do that in a proper and quick manner, and that, subject to the judicial proceedings being completed in the North, we have that review in a similar timeframe. That will allow the Government to make final decisions on the project and allow Eirgrid to proceed.

Chairman

I call Deputy Alan Farrell.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I confirm that I am in Leinster House. I thank the Minister for coming before us. We appreciate the Estimates and I hope they are as ambitious as the targets that we are setting out for the coming years. Deputy Jennifer Whitmore touched on the area I want to focus on, which is the retrofit scheme or warmer homes scheme. I wanted to look into the figures a little further, if that is okay. What I am very concerned about is the point the Minister made about the number of decades the scheme is proposing to take to complete the national housing stock, which I understand is about 2 million units. I went looking today for figures on the number of A rated homes in Ireland at present and, unfortunately, I could not find a figure that is recent. The Minister may have one and, if he does, it would be helpful to know what it is.

What is the percentage of homes for which the Minister expects no State assistance will be provided and, therefore, what is the number of homes where he does expect the State to assist? That will inform the committee as to the sort of level of budgets that might be required in the future. It could be 500,000 over a decade out of 2 million houses, where 10% or 20% of those householders are going to look after themselves without State assistance and the balance will probably need some form of assistance. It would be an interesting exercise for the committee to engage in, both in these Estimates and future Estimates, in order to determine the numbers we are looking at.

I do that because, obviously, we want to be as ambitious as the programme for Government, and perhaps more ambitious in terms of the various schemes that are going to assist the very constituents Deputy Jennifer Whitmore highlighted, those who have exorbitant home energy costs on limited incomes, as well as the delays that are there. I certainly appreciate the Minister mentioning the apprenticeship scheme, which is a very important step in reaching the targets we hope to achieve. The old adage about never letting a good crisis go to waste is probably very true in this instance. It will give us an opportunity to reskill a good number of people who will be interested in availing of apprenticeships in order to get into these sorts of schemes.

Is it possible for me to ask a question in regard to administration?

Chairman

Is it under programme B?

Deputy Alan Farrell

Yes, although I am happy to defer it if it is not. It is to do with consultants and expertise within the Department.

Chairman

Go ahead.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts in the previous Dáil. The question that always comes up regarding how many consultants are being used is not my question. My question is more related to the value for money aspect of hiring in consultants versus hiring permanent employees within the Department. It is in regard to bringing the expertise in-house in order to tackle the various policy developments and-or questions specific to, in this instance, programme B and some of the other aspects the Minister has touched on, like the various energy schemes and the expertise within some of the State agencies which will be managing policy development and implementation on the Minister's behalf.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I will have to go on memory and I am very much rounding the figures. However, as the Deputy said, there are 2 million houses and my understanding is that about 1.5 million are at a B or lower rating. Any new apartments or houses built from the 2008-09 period onwards, when building regulations improved, should not need to be retrofitted and should have a sufficiently high rating. Of those, and I am going on my memory of the housing stock, I think roughly 250,000 are social houses and, while some may have a very high rating, most of them are slightly older and they will have to be done. The warmer homes scheme is deliberately targeted at that, as I said. We will also have a major issue with public buildings, for example, schools, hospitals, Garda stations and every Department building. We have just completed an audit with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform which shows the scale of the work that has to be done. It is equally important for decarbonisation but we also do not want our children in cold, poorly-built schools or our patients in draughty hospital wards. There is also the commercial building stock, which again is probably similar in scale, if not bigger, than the public buildings stock. Therefore, we have three major projects.

I would expect that, of the 1.5 million, 1 million will be done by private householders. There will continue to be grant support but that cannot be the main vehicle for getting it done, as we would not have sufficient grant capability and, at the same time, we would also need money for public buildings and social housing stock. We will increasingly rely on things like new low-cost lending schemes, similar to the sort of loans that have been introduced in the Brexit period for small businesses, where there are credit guarantees on the first section of the loan and the Government effectively secures the first tranche against default possibilities. That lowers the risk in the overall loan and it allows other lenders in. We see An Post is currently advertising everywhere for retrofit lending. It allows it to feed in with its lending and its expertise, and it is working with SSE Airtricity. That is one example. It is a combination whereby State-backed loans, private lending and engineering expertise come together to give the householder a high quality, low complexity loan.

This is always the difficulty. We need energy experts to come in to help householders and, critically, low cost finance, which will start to make it viable. That will be key to developing the private housing stock. The key benefits in my mind, are not only the huge health benefits in daily life when living in the building.

Critically, it increases the value of a property. Buildings with a high energy ratings are attracting higher prices because people are starting to realise the comfort benefits and the long-term value benefits. Houses with low energy ratings will lose their capital value. That, combined with the low-cost loan, some sort of grant support and the pooling of expertise is how we will develop the housing stock.

On the expertise within the Department, it only engages consultants in the following circumstances: where they have specialised knowledge or expertise not available in the Department; where need for objectivity or independence is essential; where consultancy studies are required by an external body - there could be an EU or other body which look for it; where a specialised project must be completed within a very short time scale; and where the task could be done in-house but would involve a prohibitive cost and is cheaper to do elsewhere.

Earlier, I mentioned the significant increase in the SEAI staffing complement. The other big development in the budget last year is the increase of the staffing complement in the Department with a further 50 full-time positions approved by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Approximately ten of the assistant principals are due to come into place next month and 31 of the 50 are due to be in place by the end of May. Many of those will be going into the energy-climate area where the scale of work is increasing all the time and in respect of which the need for additional resources is clear. I was in this Department before. Maybe I am biased but, not that there was anything wrong with it previously, I can see that it is a scaled up, well resourced and highly capable Department. It has a lot of good internal expertise, I do not have any problem with bringing in outside expertise - that is something I think is needed in a Department so there is not only internal thinking. There are also good relationships, including when people from agencies such as EirGrid come in and work with the Department and they bring their expertise. I think it is in good shape to deliver the huge task ahead of it. I am biased but I would say that.

Chairman

It is good to hear about the increase in staffing in the Department, which will help us as we pursue our big ambition.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. I really enjoyed my time in the Department. There are some fantastic people who are working with him. I wish him well.

The 500,000 retrofits at BER B2 is a very ambitious target. Considering the new climate target of 51% compared with what was in the climate action plan, does the Minister envisage having to step up activity very considerably by 2030?

I am sure the key performance indicators, KPIs, were inherited from my time in the Department. They need to be fairly radically changed in view of the climate plan. For example, they do not refer to B2 ratings but regard any home that is retrofitted as being good enough. In reality, only about a quarter of what is done is to the standard we need to achieve.

I am really interested in the idea of a retrofitting wave. I looked at the homes in Dublin, a matter about which I am obviously interested. The age of the houses is so crucial in the context of inadequacy. Some 25% are at the worst levels - almost six times - but among older houses the rate is more than 50%. There is a real case for identifying parts of the city - I am sure this is the case in other cities and large towns - where we need to get in and do every house in an area. How close are we to having that sort of area-based strategy where it would be possible to go in with a bundle of low-cost finance and advice? The Department is working on this. There is a real urgency and we should start with the older homes.

How important will the revenue from carbon pricing be in achieving this? It will progressively increase each year. I cannot remember the estimate, but it will probably be in the region of €8 billion or €9 billion over the coming decade. It will be really crucial to us achieving that. Is working ongoing on putting that on a statutory footing? People will want any money raised to be ploughed back into climate programmes and just transition.

Deputy Stanley is very keen on microgeneration and he put forward a Bill. The Department carried out a consultation on microgeneration recently and I think the Minister intends to bring in a microgeneration scheme in this year. Are we any closer to know what kind of price will be available for microgenerators? I know it will not be a bonanza because it is a marginal source of power but are we beginning to see the shape of what the microgeneration policy will be?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I guess the Deputy has a similar assessment of the Department. For any Minister, it is a relay race, you take the baton and then pass it on to someone else. I was very glad to take the baton from Deputy Bruton who did good work in the Department.

The KPIs need to be updated. The climate action plan to be published this summer will update the plan Deputy Bruton published in 2019 and will facilitate the meeting of higher Government targets outlined in the latter. We have to put the legislation in place first and then a range of initiatives will follow. What we are, in this country and across the world, is hugely challenging. I think I heard this morning that the UK Government intends to pursue a 78% reduction in emissions by 2035. The UK has a head start because it has already delivered a lot of emissions reductions, such as switching away from coal. Nevertheless, that new target is very ambitious. Similarly, I recall reading earlier in the week that the US is going carbon neutral in its energy system, I presume in electricity generation, by 2035. Anyone who knows the size of the existing American fossil fuel power generation system knows that it is beyond compare. What the US is seeking to do is what is needed because the science says we have to do it. What we are doing is very ambitious, massively significant and will be a real challenge but it is in line with what countries similar to Ireland are doing. It will give rise to a better economy and deliver real benefits. For example, it will deliver competitive economic benefits, social benefits and better air quality, as well as climate benefits.

On the additional ambition in respect of retrofitting, I remember that at the previous joint committee there was a certain amount of competition as we revved up over how many houses could be retrofitted in a year. Someone would say they could do 60,000 and the next person would say 70,000. Before we knew it, we were doing 100,000 houses a year. The truth is that it is not that easy. It is 100,000 families and 100,000 builders. If we can complete 50,000 houses, on average, over the ten years, it would be about right in terms of our capabilities. However, we can be more ambitious in other ways. Deputy Bruton launched an initiative for district heating - a project at Poolbeg financed under the previous climate fund - whereby waste heat is taken from the incinerator. This project will deliver in the region of 90 MW of heat, which is not insignificant. That sort of project and a whole range of others will be key.

The reason I mention it is that we can bring that into new houses such as the new Poolbeg strategic development zone, SDZ, but we can bring it to the social housing apartments in Ringsend, at Pearse Street and can do it quickly. We can also bring it to all of the buildings along the docks on the north and south quays to the new buildings that are being designed and built district-heating-ready. I would not want to stop there and would want us to go into Georgian Dublin and the city centre of Dublin where those houses are not suited. These are not houses that we will look to retrofit as it is very difficult to do, is very expensive and changes the character. Why not, in a far more effective way, do what they have just started to do in Amsterdam and what they have been doing for decades in Denmark and other countries, by using district heating? I see district heating, particularly in our city centres and in our historic buildings, as having a critical role in meeting our target. This is probably one of the areas that I hope in the new climate action plan we have much more enhanced ambition. This will not just be from the waste heat from the incinerator, for example. We have just started a scheme in Tallaght which is taking the waste heat from an Amazon data centre - data centres are all about heat management and trying to minimise it - and using it to heat local buildings, and is an example of what we are going to start doing everywhere. New data centre applications will have a planning condition that we will look at where the heat and power management in those sort of industries will help us meet our targets and deliver district heating on a much more widescale basis. Nothing is finalised or written yet but this is one of the areas in the new climate action plan which will not be just about retrofitting, it will be about district heating as well.

On a couple of further points, on the carbon fund, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform published a review in advance of the national development plan, NDP, review last week. There was a paragraph or two which made surprising reading in a paper from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform because it acknowledged and committed to the effective hypothecation of the carbon tax revenues along the lines that have been agreed in the programme for government. This is not just going into retrofitting. This goes back to research and analysis done by such as John FitzGerald and Sue Scott in the ESRI many years ago, which said that in the application of any carbon tax, not only does one have to spend it on such as the warmer homes schemes and social housing to protect against and effectively eradicate fuel property, but one also should do social welfare measures which do the same and which protect against any fuel poverty impact of any carbon tax increase. That will be how the carbon tax will be applied.

Additionally, as agreed by the Government, a smaller percentage would go for measures in rural communities, particularly those in small farming communities, to support environmental measures and support paying farmers for providing nature services. That is part of a just transition approach to carbon tax application in order that the more rural and small farming type communities are also protected. That is the key application of that.

I will make one further point on the aggregation. This is not new. We have been thinking, talking and working on this going back over a considerable period. I remember myself working with a community in Ballinteer in my former time as Minister where we were doing exactly that. It is not an easy thing to do as everyone’s home is their castle and retrofitting it is not a small thing to do. When one goes into someone’s kitchen or living room, this is not a small decision or a thing that one does in passing, but there is real potential in the aggregated approach with real efficiencies in cost competitiveness and bringing the price down by doing it in this way.

The designation of the SEAI as the national agency for delivering the retrofitting programme is going to be key. I have every confidence in their chairperson and new chief executive and in their skills. They have the key task in that aggregated work.

At some point, which will happen relatively quickly and will be one of those switching points, the “keeping up with the Jones” effect will arise, where people will see the benefits, particularly the comfort benefits, of living in a well-insulated home, and we will see real pressure for everyone to get the same benefit. At that turning point we have to be ready with the apprenticeships, the workers, and with the construction industry in place.

That is where the benefit of upfront loading, such as the social housing stock and the warmer homes, will come from. It builds the industry so that when that turnover moment occurs, we are ready to go at scale.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and call now on Deputy O’Sullivan to speak. Does he wish to speak also on Programme B?

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Yes. I thank the Chairman. This will be touching on many of the issues that have been spoken about earlier. I thank the Minister for addressing us today. At the outset, I greatly welcome the investment in retrofitting and in the warmer homes scheme. This is going to be a key tool in reaching those ambitious targets that we have set ourselves of meeting a 51% reduction in emissions by 2030. It is also one of those mechanisms of doing it in a way that will minimise the impact on lower-income earners and those in disadvantaged areas. It makes complete sense to see the huge increase in investment, 50% increases, etc., because it has to happen.

Obviously, we have to take this opportunity to give the Minister the feedback on the ground as to the current scheme and on the current waiting list, which a number of members have spoken about already. People in my community have been waiting 18 months and longer. The Minister has already touched on how he is going to address that in upskilling, retraining and increasing the number of tradespeople who can roll out this initiative. The Minister need not cover that aspect again as he has already done so.

I have one question, which is slightly unusual with regard to the roll-out of the warmer homes scheme. In its initial years, which is a good while ago now, many of the schemes were rolled out by the local social enterprise development association. In the case of where I am from this was the West Cork Development Partnership where it was the main agent in rolling out the scheme. While I am open to correction, I understand such partnerships are now precluded from tendering for these works. Due to the predicament that we are in, because there are such long delays and because there are such groups that have experience and a good track record in delivering these schemes, is that something that we could look at again in a fair way that does not impact the tendering process? Such groups have the experience, skills and knowledge and this could be a vital tool in expediting the works and decreasing the waiting time. Can the Minister comment on that point please?

Chairman

I thank Deputy O'Sullivan. I will ask Deputy Devlin and to ask his question now, please. Does it also concern Programme B?

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Yes, it does. I apologise to the Chairman for the delay, as I was attending another meeting. I thank the Minister for his time and it is good to talk to him again. My apologies if some of these questions have already been answered but I understand from Deputy O'Sullivan that perhaps the Minister has touched on this before. If he will excuse me I will ask the question in any event as I did not hear the answer.

On the district heating and community energy type schemes, I was with a local group in my own constituency about three weeks ago and it was looking at renewable electricity support schemes. Those who have already taken the plunge and retrofitted their homes are looking to put power back into the grid. Where are we at with this possibility at present? How far off are we with that particular initiative?

The Minister spoke of when we get to certain point that there will be many people looking to retrofit their homes and rightly so. We are near enough to that point already and the skills are not there to deal with the demand. Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned the SEAI and I too have constituents who have been waiting for an enormous amount of time to be able to draw down the fund, let alone get the work done, and this is another hurdle for them. On the SEAI and its staffing levels, additional funding has been given to it to manage this programme. Can the Minister elaborate on the SEAI's progress in respect of its recruitment?

On the practical side of getting all this rolled out, which is really important, how much co-operation is there between the Minister's own Department and, for example, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage? We spoke about local authority housing. In my own constituency in the county council of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, the authority has done an enormous amount of work. All of the buildings are highly rated for energy efficiency. Some of the newer developments actually meet the standards for passive housing. Some of the housing is really old stock. The Minister is right about the cost-benefit analysis. It is really difficult to do one house because, for example, some in a terrace may have been purchased. We are really down to the bottom of the barrel, the expensive part, in trying to get as many of those houses as possible done. What co-operation or links exist between the Minister's Department and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, with regard to apprenticeships? Will the Minister touch on those points?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I thank Deputy O'Sullivan. I was very much involved with the whole range of community energy action agencies that were delivering a lot of those community schemes. I have seen them in action over the years and they did really good work. They came with a really good ethos and that community element was really important in getting things over the line. As the Deputy indicated, in last year's tendering process, some of them did not get contracts for additional work but that is not to say that they will not have an ongoing role. I would argue that this connects into the community energy agencies. My main adviser in the Department is a man named Paul Kenny who previously worked with Tipperary Energy Agency. That agency is a leading example of a local authority-related community organisation that was involved in this whole process. Both the independent community-based organisations and community energy bodies such as Codema in Dublin, which were more numerous previously, have a role, particularly in upskilling local authority staff to give them the capability to deliver social housing. There is a variety of groups involved. These is no closed door with regard to engagement with a variety of different community organisations, not-for-profit organisations or local authority organisations. They can and will have a very significant role in what comes next.

I will take the skills issue Deputy Devlin mentioned first. As I said, before Covid, the biggest constraint was the number of people who could work. Last year changed everything. As we come back out of lockdown, there are various big projects which will require great numbers of construction workers. I refer to the housing crisis. This Government has three key tasks to complete: to reform the health system, to deliver housing and to lead on climate action. In our Cabinet meeting today, the Taoiseach reiterated that again and again. That is our key focus. Housing will require a lot of construction workers. We really need to scale it up. If I may put my transport hat on, BusConnects, MetroLink and rail projects in Cork, Galway, Waterford and Limerick will all require great numbers of construction workers, as will the retrofitting programme.

The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science has started work in this area. There was an additional €8 million for courses related to retrofitting this year and four new retrofitting centres of excellence are to open shortly. It is starting but it needs to scale up. That is also part of this. One of the advantages of the carbon fund being hypothecated is that we know we can tell industry that there is several billion euro a year available before we even access other funds or funding mechanisms. We know this industry will be running for the next 30 years. I advise any young man or woman who is doing the leaving certificate and who has not finished applying to the Central Application Office to think about that. This is a 30-year career which is really satisfying and in which one does highly-skilled and well-paid work which can be delivered reasonably quickly. One can fix someone's home and move on to the next one. There is a guarantee of good pay. This is not a bad industry to get into. That is key. I am sorry. I have forgotten the question Deputy Devlin asked about district heating. Could he ask it again? I took a note of it but I do not recall the nature of the question.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

With regard to the community energy schemes, those who have already done it now have excess power they want to sell back to the grid. Where are we in that regard? In terms of supporting communities that want to come together and support each other through energy sharing and so on, where are we with that at the present time?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We have been involved with a consultation on the microgeneration support scheme which would allow people to sell surplus power back to the grid. I expect that we will conclude the consultation and the analysis of it and have a scheme in place by the summer. The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, has done a lot of work on community schemes already. They are working with something like 250 energy communities. I have seen really good examples in Terenure in my own constituency. That is an ongoing project for the SEAI. The potential benefit is in the aggregation of generation, not just in retrofitting.

The model in which I am particularly interested is the model of a company I have seen in operation in Belgium, Ecopower, which is a community co-operative. The advantage of this model is that a large number of small shares can be aggregated. One can have a share as small as €250 but these are put together into a collective project so that something like a €20,000 solar scheme or even a €500,000 wind farm scheme can be established. It is community-owned. What is really attractive about the model is that the company works on the supply side as well as on the generation side.

We are starting to roll out smart meters to every home. Down the line, we are moving towards this big balancing system. We will need to switch electric vehicle batteries, heat pumps and even deep freezers on and off. A deep freezer can be switched off for an hour or two and it will not defrost. The ability to switch off at peak times or to switch things on at times of high winds will give us capability. The opportunities for communities lie as much on the side of supply management as on the side of demand. Confidence in the sharing of data is what gives real capability in that regard.

In 2020, the SEAI got seed funding of €200,000 to support the establishment of a community enabling framework under the renewable energy support scheme. Having secured a separate category for community projects in the renewable energy support, RES, auctions, we want to expand the pipeline. A further €3 million was allocated to the scheme this year. Some seven community projects were successful in the first round of these RES auctions. We want to expand that and see it a lot more in the next round. It is going to grow.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and Deputies O'Sullivan and Devlin. I have some questions on programme B myself. Subhead B.5 deals with energy research programmes. I am delighted to see such an increase in funding for research.

We were all very happy down in Limerick, Clare and Kerry when the ESB announced about ten days ago a project of vast scale to begin to harness the huge amount of power off our west coast, but we are aware that the ESB's plans represent only the start of an even bigger project. Off our west coast, there is about ten times more energy that we will ever need. If we harnessed that, as the ESB plans, we would become a net energy exporter. The proposal is to generate green hydrogen using electrolysis. Major technical research is required into figuring out how to do this. Research on the route to market is also required because, although all countries are at the very start regarding green hydrogen, there is no reason Ireland cannot get in ahead of other countries and run with them. There are some very ambitious plans across the world in the area of green hydrogen. We can be there too.

There is €6 million for ocean energy research and there is also €250 million for ocean energy research, development and demonstration and €200 million for the ESRI. I do not know what is within those figures. Is funding to be allocated for both technical research and route-to-market research in the area of green hydrogen? We need to start making a move on this if we are to realise the potential that exists and become a global leader in this area.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The announcement last week by the ESB was very significant, but not just for the people in Clare and the Shannon Estuary. It is an indication of where we are going. I said on the day that if the scale of the project were multiplied by 25, it would reflect the level of commitment in the programme for Government. It is not just in the programme for Government as this was agreed by the all-party Oireachtas committee during the term of the last Dáil. I have shared details at the climate committee. Consistent political support for projects is really important because the project in question will be a five-Government project in that it will take 20 years to roll out. The more political certainty and good planning certainty there is associated with it, the lower the risk and cost and the greater the innovation and attractiveness of Ireland as a centre for this kind of development. We will not be the only people doing this. East coast USA is now switching to offshore wind energy, significantly under the Biden administration. The UK is already way ahead and accelerating.

We can expect something like 300 GW of power in the North Sea and Baltic Sea over a 20-year or 30-year time horizon. Our 35 GW, by comparison, is not out of scale. It is appropriate. It gives us a huge economic opportunity because we have a comparative competitive advantage. Ireland happens to be one of the windiest places on the planet. Even with climate change, which will see changes to the global weather systems, it is still likely that north-west Europe and our part of the Atlantic will still be very windy. There is always a temperature differential between land and sea that means wind at sea is typically steadier and more consistent.

If in the end we are producing seven times our current demand, if we get this right, the real question is what we will do with it. It will require transportation. A lot will be transported along the high-voltage, direct current cable as part of a European grid to a balancing grid, giving us export capability, but there is also great potential for conversion to hydrogen, which could be used as a backup. For example, the ESB is referring to having backup power generation at the likes of Moneypoint to match the wind when it is not blowing. That is a very attractive prospect in that there would be balancing capability and a secure economic energy system for the future, with zero carbon emissions. We would be at a comparative advantage because Ireland is windier than other places. That will start to attract industries seeking to avail of clean power, such as digital industries, biopharmaceutical companies and other manufacturing companies. In the future, one will go to where the clean power is most available. It is not just that the proposal could bring energy infrastructure and jobs to Moneypoint, Clare, as it could also bring other jobs. The Marine Planning and Development Management Bill, which is due to be published in the coming weeks, is critical in this regard. It relates to why we are backing up our research. The research budget has increased in this category by 42% year on year. The main beneficiary was the SEAI's national energy research development and demonstration programme, regarding which expenditure increased from €4.5 million in 2020 to €9 million this year. The allocation for ocean energy research and development also doubled, increasing from €3 million last year to €6 million this year. That has to be part of a consistent long-term trend. Where investment in research is concerned, one cannot just turn on and off the tap. We have a lot of expertise in the likes of MaREI, in ocean energy systems, and UCD, in energy power systems and wider energy analysis. In Galway, many good people are working on the hydrogen issue. I have seen research on this. In the likes of LIT and UL, there is also capability.

The research on hydrogen energy is still in the very early stages. There is a bit of a race between the Germans, British, Dutch and many other countries that are backing hydrogen. The exact application, be it in transport, industry or power generation, is still to be determined. We hear different views on it, but such is the scale of investment and confidence in the use of hydrogen, on the part of the European Commission and large economies, that it now seems it is very likely to be a way of storing and using renewable power, particularly in a place like Ireland, where it will work at scale. Where the cost of the conversation of hydrogen and the end-use application are concerned, it seems to me that the economics will work at scale close to the point of landing. That is what I am hearing but it may change. If hydrogen development is at the scale of solar power development over the past ten years, it will change utterly. The economics will change. We have to invest now in the expectation that we will deliver the same cost reductions. It will take ten years but we will very much be in the game, partly because we have such a level of wind power supply available to us.

Chairman

Since nobody else is indicating a desire to speak on programme B, we will move on to programme C, which concerns natural resources.

Deputy Richard Bruton

When is the liquid natural gas strategy statement expected?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Very shortly, but I would say it will be weeks rather than days. It has been complicated because we have considered a variety of legal, legislative and other measures. It has changed already in respect of the list of projects of common interest and so on. It has effectively been changed by planning decisions and other events outside our control but we will be giving very clear direction, as set out in the programme for Government.

In the future I have been talking about, we will need to invest in hydrogen, the grid and connectivity to give us security. I do not believe the importation of fracked gas has a future in an economy that is seeking to be a leader and to develop real skills and expertise in the alternatives. From the Corrib gas field, albeit a diminishing resource, we will have a supply of gas to our west for the next ten years. Critical to the energy future I describe and to making the whole system work will be energy co-operation with our neighbours, especially the UK, regardless of what happens with Brexit.

They, in turn, will not be able to deliver their climate targets or the new economy they talk about, as an isolated energy island. North Sea gas is depleting steadily, and the UK will require interconnection to Norway, Denmark, Holland, France and Ireland to have a balancing, functioning energy system. The energy system will be for electricity security as well as gas security. In those circumstances, we will be looking for investors in places like the Shannon Estuary who are willing to invest in hydrogen and wind energy, sectors in which we know we have a comparative advantage and will not have stranded assets. If we invested in liquefied natural gas, LNG, facilities, there would be a major risk of stranded assets and would not be in tune with our commitments.

As a country, we have shown real leadership on climate in recent years. The Fine Gael backbench motion to stop fracked gas in the country was very progressive and positive. Deputy Pringle's Bill to stop investment in fossil fuels was the correct long-term decision for the country. The decision to end oil and gas exploration was, again, the correct decision, made by the previous Government and this one. In that context, a policy signal that we will not support, facilitate or encourage fracked gas is the correct one. The importation of fracked gas is legally complex and difficult. I am conscious of European and other rules. That is the reason it has taken a certain amount of time, but that policy statement will be delivered shortly.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

In the absence of the statement being made, is there a risk that some applications to An Bord Pleanála will be assessed and allowed? There is a fear that there could potentially be an appeal to An Bord Pleanála on an installation. If that statement has not been formalised and signed off by the Government, An Bord Pleanála cannot take it into account in making its decision.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I think anyone on An Bord Pleanála or anyone making such an application would be very aware of what is being said by the Government, what is in the programme for Government and what I have just said. The Government could not have been clearer as to where its strategic direction lies. I do not expect any such development. We will be quick now in issuing that policy statement in order that there is clarity.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The decision on co-housing has raised some alarm because An Bord Pleanála indicated there had been no statement on co-housing. People are concerned that a similar process could take place with co-housing. I urge the Minister to expedite the statement because it is critical that we get it in place.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I thank the Minister for all the explanations he has given. On the question of the importation of fracked gas, is he saying there will be no LNG infrastructure anywhere in the State or is he just excluding fracked gas?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I do not see us having LNG terminals. I will have to check the programme for Government, but I think it was specific in referring to imported fracked gas. It is very difficult when one gets into the subject given some of the technical aspects involved in terms of how one can be certain about the source of certain gas. Similar to the electricity grid network, when one is importing electricity one does not know whether it is coming from a nuclear or other source and in the existing gas network, where we are getting gas from the UK, some gas could come from an LNG terminal. The Department is carrying out a review of energy supply security. It is examining the entire issue of energy security. Our own gas supply is likely to come to an end in the early part of the next decade. As to the possibility of establishing a link, whereby we could have an emergency connection to bring in gas in the event of a future crisis, I would not rule that out. To my mind, we will not have functioning LNG terminals operating here on a conventional basis. I look forward to what will be outlined in the energy security supply policy statement. If it says we must have some hook-up in the event of a wider crisis, that is something we will consider. However, I do not envisage that we will build LNG terminals to operate on a conventional basis, be it using imported fracked gas or other gas. That may be a better policy approach, as it would be very difficult to differentiate fracked gas from other gas.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I thank the Minister. Could I just add my voice to those who asked for the policy statement to be made as soon as possible?

Chairman

Can Deputy Smith confirm she is on the Leinster House campus?

Deputy Bríd Smith

No, I cannot.

Chairman

It has been agreed that all members must be present on campus to participate in a meeting. I know Deputy Smith understands the issue of privilege. If she does not mind, I will move on.

Deputy Bríd Smith

That is fine.

Chairman

As there are no other members indicating to speak on programme C, I will move on to programme D, inland fisheries.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I note the budget for inland fisheries has been reduced, if only slightly. Considering the biodiversity crisis we are in, it is disconcerting that we are not putting much more money into and placing much greater emphasis on inland fisheries, which perform an incredibly important function. Our river systems are in dire straits. We only have 20 rivers that are in pristine condition, down from 500 rivers in the 1980s. The direction of travel when it comes to rivers and water quality is most unsatisfactory.

One of the areas in which I do a lot of work is the removal of weirs and barriers. I know that will be a key focus of the European Green Deal. Many barriers in river systems are completely unnecessary and were erected purely for aesthetic purposes but they cause significant problems for fish migration. Upstream water can often be of much better quality than water downstream and we are stopping fish from migrating into better quality water that would expand their range significantly. Are there any plans within the Department to fund a weir or barrier remediation programme? I am working on one such programme with Inland Fisheries Ireland, Wicklow County Council, the local authorities water programme, LAWPRO, and the East Wicklow Rivers Trust dealing with a couple of weirs in Wicklow. A programme that should be rolled out across the country. The Annacotty Weir, for example, is a major barrier to lamprey migration. It is one of those areas where one could make significant improvements with very little investment. Does the Minister have any plans to invest in weir and barrier remediation?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I agree with Deputy Whitmore. We need to pay more attention to the significance of inland fisheries. They are very much a barometer of how we are performing in environmental terms because without pristine rivers and water, we will not get salmonid species and related birdlife and other systems. It is also important in the sense of providing a connection to nature for many people that is hugely significant. In its own right, inland fisheries are a key ecosystem. Inland Fisheries Ireland has a critical role in protecting and developing them. I hope the comprehensive policy framework review I mentioned will help us increase the budget for inland fisheries and set out much more ambitious policy measures.

That roadmap was launched in January this year. The wording I used in my opening statement is that it "set out the next stages in this policy development, which will involve stakeholders in reimagining our relationship with this national resource." The issue is a key priority in my mind and I always think it is probably one of the most interesting issues in my Department. I fixate on the salmon numbers each year and what is happening in our rivers system and the wider world. I am very aware that the likes of the barrier on the Annacotty river has a significant effect, not just on salmon returning but also on eels. We have had great difficulty with that and lost eel populations, which has severe knock-on consequences on bird populations because there is not sufficient feed stock for the system. I do not have an answer as to whether there is a specific solution. I have often wondered about this issue in regard to some of my local rivers. Would you believe that salmon swim up the River Dodder now? They get caught in the weir systems. We could extend all the way up the River Dodder, which would be transformative, but some of the weirs are impassable. They are not needed for any mill functions. I agree we should examine the issue. Many fish passes are not well kept or well designed to deliver what they are meant to deliver. I will commit to reverting to this issue with the committee. I might ask the Department for a more detailed briefing paper on what we are doing with fish passes as part of this review of inland fisheries and return for a much lengthier discussion when I have those details.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

That would be great. I thank the Minister.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Following on from Deputy Whitmore on river quality, I note the Minister has allocated €33.3 million in programme D, which is very welcome. Will the Minister outline the Department's involvement and the co-operation it has with Irish Water, the EPA, many local authorities and Waterways Ireland, for example? One of the big issues in urban areas relates to misconnections into the local rivers and there is also the grey run-off water matter from roads and so on because some of the older roads and gulleys still empty into local rivers. While river water quality has improved over the years, there remains a serious risk to biodiversity in and around the rivers. Will the Minister comment on future programmes of his Department designed to tackle grey run-off water waste from roads, factories and so on, and those misconnections? What is in the pipeline - excuse the pun - for the Department working with all the agencies I mentioned?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The Deputy and I share neighbouring constituencies and have similar concerns on this issue. Protecting nature is also about protecting our own health. I happened to have my first swim of the year on Saturday last, out at the Forty Foot, which was fantastic but bloody cold. I am worried about what I swim in. Too often I have come back from Dublin Bay not feeling well because the water pollution problem affects not just the wildlife but us too. To be local and parochial for a moment, all-year swimming at Dublin Bay has really taken off and that is fantastic. Let us double down on that and make it bigger and better every year.

The biggest concern in that regard, as the Deputy described, relates to the run-off surge that happens when, in periods of high rainfall, the water in the storm drains mixes with that in the sewer drains and runs out directly into the bay, resulting in a significant problem. My understanding is this is not a short-term, easy-fix solution. Additional investment has gone into the treatment plant in Ringsend, and while a new treatment plant on the north side of the city may help, we will still be left with that storm drain problem, particularly my constituency and those of Deputy Devlin and Deputy Bruton, respectively, which are the three constituencies most affected.

To be honest, this is a very large structural, long-term problem. In the short term, and this is more out of interest than anything else, projects are examining the likes of using remote sensory devices on buoys in the bay. We cannot get truly real-time information but we certainly should not have assessments whereby we have to wait two or three days to know about the water quality. It needs to be almost instantaneous in order that we can give people warnings, if necessary, that the water is not safe. Equally, we should be able to get people back in the water quickly once we know it is safe. That is one short-term measure. The longer term one, about pipe infrastructure, will need major investment from Irish Water over a ten-year period to address it. We are the wildlife that is at risk here, not anyone else.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Absolutely. I share the Minister's concern about Dublin Bay. He is correct that a capital programme by Irish Water is under way. I am wondering about the funding from the Minister's Department, particularly for the EPA, Waterways Ireland and so on. He might revert to me after the meeting to emphasise the issue. Local authorities do fantastic work monitoring river water quality but it is important that at every turn we try to prevent those misconnections and that grey water running into the rivers. That will also prevent from happening what the Minister described happening in Dublin Bay.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I will revert to the Deputy on that. The EPA has a key role. In May 2020, it published a bathing water report. The one piece of good news from that was that it highlighted that 95% of bathing waters met or exceeded the minimum standard required, and that is one of the agency's key tasks. It has to be independent of Irish Water or the local authorities. It is a watchdog and a regulator, and in that it has a key function.

Nevertheless, I return to the fact that there is a structural problem in my constituency and that of the Deputy in regard to those storm surge drains and that will take time to rectify.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. Just over 20 minutes remain before the clerk, the broadcast team and I must vacate the committee room. I ask members to indicate if they wish to speak to programme F, the shortest of the programmes. I suspect that most members are interested in programme E and will wish to discuss that in the time remaining. Has Deputy Bruton indicated he wishes to speak on programme F?

Deputy Richard Bruton

No.

Chairman

In that case, we will spend the remaining time on programme E, on environment and waste management.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The environmental fund has suffered the problem of success in that the plastic bag levy no longer raises money. Is that 64% reduction in the allocation from it impacting on important programmes? I would not like some of the initiatives under it to be lost.

The programme for Government intends that the just transition fund will move to a more permanent legislative basis. What is the state of play on that legislation? People want to see a more formal and better laid out policy in that area because it will be crucial as we unfold.

Does an implementation strategy accompany the waste and circular economy document published earlier in the year? Many important signposts have been set out in that regard. How will the implementation be rolled out?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

On the environmental fund, we are making a switch with the introduction of a much larger carbon fund, and there is also carbon tax revenue. It is not as if there is a commitment to this environmental area. As the Deputy mentioned, the source funding started to dry up for good reasons.

Some €18 million of the money involved has been moved back to the Vote in order to continue programme delivery. That is not a reduction of services, it is a different structure under which they have been delivered and met.

On the just transition fund, Kieran Mulvey has done a good job, particularly with the local authorities, including Offaly County Council and others. We initiated the first of two rounds of supports for specific social and other enterprise initiatives in the midlands. The process of getting them through the state aid approval process has been slower than I would like but we are there now, or very close to being there. We expect the funding to be released to allow those projects to hit the ground running. There is still work to do on that.

Further funding for just transition, particularly in the midlands, will come from Europe for specific projects. It will have to be matched by State funding but I think we will be able to get that in place. That funding is due to be provided for a seven-year period through the EU process. It is right to use that as a key funding mechanism for some of the just transition projects in the midlands. It is key that the regional assemblies and local authorities will be centrally involved. They were not involved in the initial projects and the way we have approached this because the Department has stepped into the breach to manage the whole approval process but, as a Department, we are inclined to enable policy. Delivering those projects was the right and appropriate thing to do but there is more of a role for the regional assemblies and local authorities, with the help of Department in setting strategic oversight. We want to streamline and simplify the procurement process so it is not complicated for people seeking the funding or for the Department.

There will be wider requirements in the just transition process that will take in some of the expertise and advice that the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, has built up over the years. NESC will have a role in how we apply just transitional thinking to a much wider range of areas. This does not only apply to the midlands. The car industry must have a just transition because we are not going to need the same amount of repair work done when electric vehicles require a fraction of the repair work of their fuel equivalents. We need a just transition in farming, forestry and a range of other areas. Much of that will require a good dialogue and partnership approach. That will be the wider application of the just transition process that I hope we will put in place.

There is a 200-action implementation plan for the reduction of waste. Significant initiatives are already in train, including the move towards the end of smoky fuels. There has been successful implementation of a consultation on the deposit refund scheme which we expect to see progressing in a timely manner. The same applies to the other 200-odd initiatives. It has been very well set up in the sense that, speaking of partnership, the strategy was developed in collaboration with the waste industry, user industries, non-governmental organisations, consumer groups, the Department, the Environmental Protection Agency and others. It is being implemented with most people on board and ready to implement an agreed 200-action plan agenda. I am confident we can show steady progress in that regard.

Deputy Réada Cronin

There is €250,000 earmarked for air quality initiatives. That is the lowest of the seven spends on climate initiatives and is half of what was spent on the recent court case. What are those initiatives? Ireland had one of the highest rates of respiratory disease in the EU even before the onset of Covid-19. People will now be experiencing long Covid and there are high hospitalisation rates and emergencies. The Irish Thoracic Society has stated we are facing an unprecedented crisis in respiratory health because we have so few specialists. Will the Minister tell me what are the initiatives and why is the amount designated for them so low?

I wish also to ask about incontinence waste supports. There is €400,000 designated in that area. I am interested because a Sinn Féin motion in Kildare County Council several years ago started looking at this area when the pay-by-weight approach was coming in. The Minister has allocated €400,000 but stated there are complex issues at play. What means will the Government use to get these supports out to people in need? Carers who are looking after incontinent adults have heavy waste. Would the Minister consider bringing domestic waste collection back into public ownership? The privatisation of domestic waste has failed. Three different companies come into my estate in Maynooth on three different days. That is a waste of energy and increases petrol fumes and litter. We should consider bringing waste back into public ownership and I would like to hear the Minister's comments on that. I confirm that I am on the premises.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

As I said earlier to Deputy Bruton, we are now going to significantly change the whole waste system towards zero single-use plastics and there will be an increase in obligations on the producers, particularly commercial operators. Waste is not segregated effectively in many commercial premises. We need to radically improve our food waste collection system. Work is being done with the industry, Repak and others to devise the measures under the new waste action plan for a circular economy. It was largely the local authorities in Dublin and, I am sure, the rest of the country that switched away from the centralised municipal waste collection system. If I were to try to reverse engines in that regard, it would take all of the next four years and all the other projects would have to be reconsidered or redrafted. The big recycling centres and so on are part of that system and I do not think it will be feasible for us to go back to the system we had two or three decades ago of a single municipal collection system. I can see the sense in it and understand the political thinking behind it but I do not think it is deliverable in the immediate future. I would prefer to focus on more urgent matters. We have a real waste challenge here. It is not only about increasing recycling rates and so on, it is also about reducing waste because there are only one or two landfill sites left. We do not want to build huge amounts of new incinerators so reducing waste is the key focus. If I were to reconfigure the whole system and ask Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, South Dublin County Council, Kildare County Council or other local authorities to re-establish the old waste system, we would not be focused on the immediate challenges in front of us.

On the support for vulnerable persons, the waste enforcement division is currently reviewing the efforts made to date to deliver supports for vulnerable persons with conditions such as lifelong or long-term medical incontinence. That is something at which the waste enforcement division is looking at specifically and I will ask its representatives to come back to the Deputy directly with details on that issue.

I do not have details in front of m about the air quality initiative. There has, in recent years, been consideration of the need to upgrade our monitoring systems. We did not have an effective monitoring system. The Environmental Protection Agency and the Department have put in a lot of work to increase monitoring and impose additional monitoring units.

That has been one of the key initiatives accounting for the small but very important budget increase.

The Deputy is right that Covid has shown us the importance of air quality. Areas with significant air quality problems had a higher incidence of hospitalisation. The two go together.

Chairman

I reiterate the point that Deputy Cronin made about monitoring air quality. I have looked at the issue closely. While there have been major improvements in the network in recent years, to get a good picture of air quality in our cities and towns we must expand the network and increase the number of stations in towns and cities.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

On the climate action fund, a call for expressions of interest issued in January 2020 and the applications were due to be called late last year but that has not happened. As many as 190 applications have been submitted for the fund. When will the funding become available? Will the Minister make the fund available for smaller applications? The average cost of projects is currently €20 million. These are large-scale projects, which are important, but there is potential for local authorities and organisations to make applications for smaller amounts of money.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I do not have an answer to the Deputy's question on the timeframe. I will revert to her directly after this meeting and ensure the Department forwards details to her on the timing.

More generally, we have to look at the next rounds of funding. We will look at providing significant support for smaller community applications. The climate action fund cannot only be for big engineering projects. It must support community initiatives. I expect to work with my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, because the work the community development sector does in this area is hugely beneficial. Specifically targeting community initiatives and involvement in climate action is one of the next phases we are considering in terms of the use of the fund.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

On programme E, I welcome the €50 million allocated for the EPA. This touches on the issue we discussed under programme D.

Remediation of landfill sites is an issue, particularly in urban areas. The €26 million provided for this is very welcome. I will focus on the sum of €10.2 million for waste management initiatives that seek to increase awareness of the necessity to minimise waste and increase recycling. What is the Government doing to reduce packaging? It is key that we reduce packaging before we talk about recycling. Excess waste through packaging must be tackled. Will some of the €10.2 million go towards initiatives in that area? If not, what funding will be provided for this purpose? Is the Government talking to manufacturers here and abroad to reduce packaging? The public do not want so much packaging when their packages arrive because they must pay the cost of disposal. We would do ourselves a favour if we tackled the issue of packaging before products reach supermarket shelves.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I agree with the Deputy. This should not be a cost on either the consumer or the State. A regulatory approach is needed so that all businesses are treated in a fair and equal way. We must stop producing packaging that is either non-recyclable or has mixed components as that makes it very difficult to separate it at the waste segregation stage. The waste action plan for a circular economy, more than anything else, places an obligation on the producer not the consumer. That is where we really need to focus and the waste action plan sets out how we will do so. It has a working group that collaborates with industry, consumer groups and NGOs.

Under the plan, there is a move towards looking at the production chain and stopping the use of single-use plastics and non-recyclables in packaging. The timeline is five years. The initiative is backed up by European directives so we are not doing this on our own. I understand the initiative is progressing very successfully with industry buy-in. Retailers and producers have responsibility. The key is to have good regulation. Getting large producers of consumer goods and retailers to make the change should not place a major budgetary requirement on the State. That should be achieved by regulation, not grant or other support and price mechanisms.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I wondered when we would talk about plastic bags. I thought the issue might have arisen earlier in the context of the law of diminishing returns whereby, if there are alternatives available, the multiples and consumers will find a way not to buy plastic bags. It is important to note that multiple use bags are made out of plastic and society, as well as the retail multiples, must show initiative and source alternatives. I have been travelling to the United States for more than 20 years to visit family. In the US, people are always asked whether they want paper or plastic bags when shopping. There must be a tipping point in terms of Irish consumers having a desire to eradicate the use of plastic. I welcome the initiative.

Deputy Cronin and the Chairman touched on the issue of air quality. Local knowledge empowers people. If the Department, in consultation with local authorities, were to provide air quality monitors across the country, it would provide people with instant information on air quality in their communities and have a knock-on effect on consumer behaviour and transport options. I would welcome that type of initiative. I appreciate that we are discussing the Estimates, which are not policy-related, but the Department is carrying out research in this area. Such an initiative could be considered in the future.

Deputy Devlin mentioned landfill remediation treatment. There are a couple of landfill sites in my neck of the woods. Great work is being done in this area by the local authorities and the EPA.

I thank Deputy Cronin for reminding me of the research on incontinence, which is seeking to discover whether there is a way in which individual families can be supported in that regard. Like the Minister, I recognise that this is an important political matter, albeit one for the HSE. We can no longer get involved in waste collection but we can get involved in directly supporting families of people who have a medical condition that requires them to use incontinence pads by ensuring they are either supplied with incontinence pads or supports. That is something for the Department of Health to consider rather than the Minister's Department.

I thank the Minister for the Estimates. I will refer to something I added to one of our submissions. I think it concerned building standards. We talked about the need to have more ambition in terms of public buildings. I did not get a chance to respond to the Minister's reply to my questions on retrofitting.

I cannot emphasise enough the importance of the State leading by example in retrofitting, for the very reasons the Minister outlined, including making sure our children are being educated in warm schools and energy efficient schools, and that our public buildings are brought along with the national retrofit scheme in all its various guises.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The EPA provides local air quality data through airquality.ie, on the 50 monitoring stations that are out there. I do not have the details here, but I recall that there is a process of citizen science supporting that with regard to air quality. The monitoring of environmental data is improving with remote sensory devices and mobile networks. Actually, I have that number wrong, it is 90 monitoring stations in total. These can be complemented by other measuring mechanisms.

On the issue of public buildings, the Deputy is absolutely right. We have done everything. I recall a hearing, when I was in opposition a few years ago, and asking the relevant officials in the OPW what were we doing in that regard. I believe the response was that we had done a lot on the behavioural side such as notices on boards and everyone being told to manage how we monitor. They effectively said that it had got to the point where we have to invest in the fabric of buildings. It is not a small investment. It is at a time when we have significant other investment requirements in housing, in transport, in health and in education. I could go on. Investing in our public building stock has a benefit in that we save on the current fuel bill, we get better health outcomes and we must meet this climate target. We have to stop burning fossil fuels within three decades. It will take three decades to do our public buildings and we should do them as early as we can to make the saving and to show the lead. By the end of that period we will be net-zero and we will not be burning fossil fuels. We know we have to do it and should get on with it.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending this evening. I also thank the members for their engagement in the past two hours. There were some fantastic questions and interrogation of the numbers and of the direction we are going.