SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Dec 2006

Vote 30 — Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Supplementary).

Chairman

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider Supplementary Estimates for the Communications, Marine and Natural Resources Vote in regard to subhead H4, Teilifís na Gaeilge, and a proposed new subhead, F5 for energy efficiency initiatives as referred by the Dáil. I remind Members that these are Supplementary Estimates rather than the totality of the Estimates. This meeting is due to finish no later than 4 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resource, Deputy Browne, and his officials for attending and assisting our consideration of the Estimates. A briefing note providing details of the Supplementary Estimate has been circulated to members. The Minister of State will address the select committee for several minutes after which each Opposition spokesman, beginning with Deputy Durkan, will have the same length of time to respond. Each of the subhead groupings will then be taken in turn, with an open discussion on the individual headings by way of question and answer. This will leave time for concluding comments before we adjourn. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I remind members that we are only considering the Supplementary Estimates and that they may discuss issues relevant to the two individual subheads covered. They may not recommend increases or decreases in the Supplementary Estimates and there will be no vote. I invite the Minister of State to make a brief opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. J. Browne)

The token Supplementary Estimates for Vote 30: Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, propose additional funding for TG4, grant-in-aid subhead H4, and the creation of a new subhead F5, to provide for the cost of the Power of One energy efficiency campaign.

The additional funding required under subhead H4 in 2006 amounts to €0.889 million. As the additional expenditure is to be met from savings, the Supplementary Estimate sought is to be a token one of €1,000. In 2000, RTE advanced an interest free loan of €0.889 million to allow TG4 to provide for a funding shortfall relating to a capital expenditure project for a second TV control gallery. The project was completed in 2001 and enabled TG4 to broadcast from two control galleries. It has always been envisaged that this loan would have to be repaid and it is now being included in the accounts of both RTE and TG4 since it was issued in 2000. It is important that this loan be repaid before 1 April 2007 since this is the date set for the establishment of TG4 as an independent station.

Following his examination of TG4's accounts, the Department accountant has concluded that TG4 would be unable to repay the loan from within its own resources. In light of this, I recommend that a once-off capital grant of €889,000 be provided to TG4 for this purpose.

The requirement in 2006 for the Power of One energy efficiency campaign is €2.6 million. As the additional expenditure is to be met from savings, the Supplementary Estimate sought is to be a token one of €1,000. Launched in September 2006, the Power of One campaign was designed with a single overriding objective, namely, to achieve real and measurable change in consumer awareness and behaviour on energy efficiency. The campaign task is to communicate the various messages to individuals in such a way as to enable and empower them to make stepped changes towards more energy efficient behaviour. The main objectives of the Government energy efficiency campaign are as follows: to build awareness of the types and sources of the energy we use and the cost and environmental impact of their use; to inform and empower the general public on best practices in terms of saving energy at home and at work; to target individual sectors such as industry, SMEs, schools, the public sector and the transport sector with tailored messages; and to highlight and build on existing programmes and activities in operation on the island of Ireland, taking account of relevant EU policies and initiatives.

It is proposed to meet the additional funding both for TG4 and for the energy efficiency campaign from savings within subhead J of the Vote. Subhead J — other services of Vote 30 — provides for the following: support under the cross-Border initiatives, PEACE ll and INTERREG III programmes; mining services including compensation payments to the owners of private mineral rights; the payment of grants to the Commission for Energy Regulation in respect of all-island energy; subscriptions to international organisations; and the running cost of the gas technical standards committee. The subhead also makes provision for the capital contingency fund which this Department is required, under the multi-annual capital investment framework, to make available within the Estimate to meet any unforeseen demands or additional costs which might emerge. A contingency of €6.94 million is provided within subhead J for this purpose in 2006. It is proposed to use savings of €3.489 million from subhead J in 2006 to fund the additional requirements in relation to the subheads.

I have now outlined to the Deputies the detail of the Supplementary Estimate, the cost of which can be met by savings and I hope they will agree that the proposals are reasonable and can approve them as presented.

Chairman

Deputy Durkan, do you have any questions?

Mr. Durkan

Do you want questions or a statement, Chairman? I welcome the Minister of State. I am glad to have the opportunity to discuss the contents of his portfolio which affects every household, shop, office, factory or business premises in the country. My criticism is that the whole area of communications has not developed to the extent it should have in the past ten years. The development of broadband and associated technology and ensuring its availability throughout the country, not in a five-year period but within a single year, should have been a major priority.

Chairman

Allow me to interject. We are covering two items. One is the Supplementary Estimate for TG4 and the other is the Power of One campaign in regard to energy. The Deputy should address his comments to those two issues.

Mr. Durkan

Will the others be dealt with separately?

Chairman

Not today. It is not allowed under Standing Orders.

Mr. Durkan

I am merely making a passing reference to the other issues.

Chairman

We are dealing with only two items. I do not want to take issue with the Deputy. I have taken advice on this.

Mr. Durkan

We have all received a communication associated with the publication of the Estimates which was very congratulatory and complimentary to everybody concerned. I read it twice to see whether it corresponded with delivery and I read the Book of Estimates. While there may be a restriction on what one can talk about in this instance, there is no restriction on what should or should not be included in any portfolio at any time.

I note the proposal to raise the once-off capital grant in respect of TG4 and hope it will suffice. The role of TG4 will have to be taken account of in the future. The role of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland will also have to be taken into account. We seem to be living in an era of commissions and regulators. If many more appear on the scene, a public representative will not be able to venture into the marketplace without tripping over or being assassinated by one of them. The degree of ministerial accountability in the future will be important because of the growing trend whereby a commission or a regulator controls and takes responsibility for everything that is negative and responsibility for everything that is positive is handed over to a Minister.

In the future it must be absolutely clear how broadcasting services are to be developed. That is dealt with in the heads of the new Bill. There is an idea in Government circles that the national broadcasting service is a Government broadcasting service. It is not, nor will it be in the future. There is a tendency for national broadcasting services to be seen as the Government broadcasting service. Those of us who are in Opposition are very sensitive to that and we are watching carefully to ensure that the national broadcasting service, radio or television, public or private, is equally aware of Government and Opposition and that neither owns it in its entirety.

I want to address the issue of energy efficiency. I presume we can talk about that.

Chairman

I do not share the Deputy's view on the national broadcasting service. The national broadcaster, RTE, has always been independent of Government. All political parties have felt the lash of the national broadcaster from time to time.

Mr. Durkan

I have very bad news for the Chairman. His memory is not as long as mine. I remember when a Fianna Fáil Party spokesman gave the national broadcaster a lash in the Dáil every morning because it was not giving sufficient coverage to the Opposition of the day. I do not suggest for a moment that the national broadcaster is in any way partisan but from time to time I have been able to identify areas where that appeared to be the case. It may have been coincidence, and coincidence is often a primary factor in politics. In the future, whatever broadcasting foundation stones are laid down, broadcasters must be totally impartial in the way they do their business, notwithstanding that Ministers appoint people to the various authorities.

Chairman

We will have plenty of time to debate that on the new broadcasting Bill which will be before this committee in January. The Deputy may address the issue of the Power of One.

Mr. Durkan

We need to introduce incentives into the energy area to encourage people to make use of the various options available to them to reduce and conserve and to improve their home heating systems and so on. If we do not do that we will miss our targets of achieving efficiency and eliminating or reducing waste. I remember when matters were serious in the 1970s and lights were switched off right across the country in places where they were not needed. We no longer think like that. However, if we want to achieve the ultimate in efficiency, the Power of One campaign is one way of doing it. Incentives in the public sector — in schools, transport and so on — are another way of doing it.

There is a serious lack of incentives in the alternative energy sector. Such incentives should have been introduced over the past ten years. That has not happened. That is why Ireland lags way behind its European colleagues who have developed their alternative energy sectors to the extent that they have significantly reduced their dependence on imports and, as a consequence, have immeasurably improved their economies and made them much more independent.

Mr. Broughan

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, and his staff.

In regard to TG4, why are we introducing a Supplementary Estimate to pay for a control gallery that the station seems to have completed in 2001? In general terms, I presume from the Minister's speech and from the background note we received that we do not need to pass additional legislation in order for TG4 to become independent in April 2007, that this will happen under the old Broadcasting Act. Is much additional money being put aside? On the figures we have so far, TG4's budget is being increased from €29.9 million to €31.9 million. How does that €2 million increase pan out when TG4 becomes an independent station? The future remit of TG4 is critical. As the Chairman stated we will have the opportunity to discuss this issue again when we debate on the broadcasting Bill. The Minister for Finance has an additional €4 billion to €5 billion that he had not expected this time last year. In addition, very substantial sums of money have not been spent by various Departments. Under subhead J, we set aside €17.7 million for different remits in 2006, for example, PEACE II, INTERREG 111A programmes and the Carrickarory marina project sponsored by the North East Inishowen Development Limited. Is it the case that only €5 million of that money has been spent? Have we spent the money that was allocated to those projects in 2006?

Money was set aside also in subhead J for mining services. We approved major expenditure for Silvermines mine. Are we covered for that now? Will this be dealt with in the Estimates or will it be dealt with tomorrow?

The Minister refers in his notes to the grant to CER for the single electricity market SEM, in subhead J3. Is that money coming from this subhead or will it be taken in the general remit of the Estimates that we approved several weeks ago?

Will it be the case from 2007 onwards that energy efficiency will be a major subhead? The Power of One campaign has been a disastrous non-event, a whimper. As I stated in the Dáil and at previous meetings of the committee, the Power of One should have started with one or two Ministers. I understand the Minister is driving a car with out-of-date technology to deal with carbon emissions. Why does he not lead by example? The Opposition tries to lead by example, but it does not have the resources a Minister has. The allocation of €2.6 million seems to be hot air, a typical performance for the outgoing Government. The Power of One campaign aims to build awareness, but the message on the large posters confuses people. Are they being asked to vote No. 1 for some punter, for example, Deputy Noel Dempsey?

Chairman

——or for Deputy Seán Power, the Power of One.

Mr. Broughan

Exactly. The Minister states that the Power of One campaign is to inform and empower the general public, to target individual sectors and so on — which is just highfalutin' waffle. The campaign has been running for the past four months and now it is proposed to spend €2.5 million from subhead J. Is the reality that we are spending all this money on nothing? The Commissioner for Energy, Mr. Andris Piebalgs appeared before the committee six months and my distinguished colleague, Deputy Eamon Ryan debated the issue of energy efficiency and whether we would take a serious step. Fortunately with the best will in the world, the outgoing Government will not make an impact on this issue. Commissioner Piebalgs has set a target for the year 2020. Many try to unplug the television at night, use longlife bulbs, as the Chairman mentioned, and in my case, we are saving to buy a hybrid car. When will we put meat on the bones of this campaign? A person contacted the committee on his efforts to get woodchips for a woodchip boiler. The truck delivering the woodchips did not have a pipe of sufficient length to deliver the woodchips to his house. There are endless problems associated with alternative energy substitutes. The outgoing Government, I regret to say, during this incredible boom built 600,000 housing units, many of them located in my constituency.

Mr. Durkan

Units.

Mr. Broughan

Units stacked one on top of the other. There is no lift to the fourth or fifth floor, and it is difficult for parents trying to bring children up to the upper stories. The building directive was not implemented, the insulation levels were not implemented and the issue of energy efficiency was a joke the Government did not take seriously. Now, there are only three months left and unfortunately a task for the next Government will be to run a proper energy efficiency campaign.

I do not know what the €2.5 million was meant to do. It was alleged in the media that the outgoing Minister did not get the electric or hybrid car because he could not fit his golf clubs in the boot——

Ms F. O’Malley

The Deputy knows better.

Mr. Broughan

——and for that reason he did not take that route——

Chairman

I am surprised at Deputy Broughan.

Mr. Broughan

I withdraw that remark.

Mr. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Mr. Broughan

It was a shocking allegation. One must lead by example and it should have started with one person.

It is regrettable that the Government did not start an energy efficiency campaign before leaving office.

Mr. Browne

The Government still has six months in office.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I want to concentrate on the energy efficiency initiative, however, in regard to TG4 ,was the €889,000 forgotten about? It seems from the written note that it was only when the Department's accountant examined the accounts that this came to light and became the reason for the Supplementary Estimate. I too would be interested to learn why it did not come up in the discussion on the Estimates earlier this year. In regard to the energy efficiency initiative and particularly the Power of One campaign, I have only seen the advertisement on television a couple of times and I saw it at the launch in Government Buildings. It is necessary to give some sort of visual representation of the emissions we are causing by what we do, and in particular in relation to climate change and as a way of explaining carbon dioxide and the effect it has. One of the great difficulties is that carbon dioxide emissions from cars are unseen. For every mile driven one leaves almost a pound of carbon. If one drives a car similar to the Minister's and travels from Cork to here it would be approximately 150 pounds.

Chairman

Should the advertisement be similar to the campaign on waste run by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

Mr. Eamon Ryan. May I finish the point I am making? What I thought was good about the campaign was that it started to put a visual representation on energy use. That was not bad. I agree with Deputy Broughan, that in setting out the objectives of the campaigns which are to build awareness of types and sources of energy costs and environmental impacts, the advertising campaign that I saw does not do it. It does not meet the second objective to inform consumers about the impact that inefficient energy use has on costs and the environment. That did not come across to me. It had an effect on the third objective, to encourage individual responsibility and change behaviour in small ways, or it could be seen that it could have an effect on that. It may well have an effect in empowering individuals to realise their role in the challenge. However, it is not enough, it is not even scratching at the surface. I have a real concern that there are no measures attached to the initiative. There is no way of discerning whether it is successful. I contend that the only measure of energy efficiency must be the reduction in the level of energy use rather than simply an increase in energy efficiency as set out by the European Union whose measure is higher productivity from devices we already use. We know geologically that the rate of reduction in oil production will be of the order of 2% per annum when we pass peak oil. Coincidentally, to meet our climate change obligations we must cut fossil fuel emissions by approximately 2% to 3% per annum. The easiest, most accurate measure of any energy efficiency mechanism will be its success in achieving actual reductions in energy use.

I cannot believe it is not possible for us to measure, as part of the campaign, domestic use of energy. I saw no mention of such a mechanism at the launch or subsequently which would measure the success of the €6 million to €8 million campaign. It should be possible for us to compare specific energy use figures in homes before and after the campaign to establish whether it has paid off. The absence of any measuring system leads me to think that, as with many energy initiatives, this is a panicked reaction from a Government which has taken no proper actions in the past ten years. As the matter comes to the fore in the latter stages of its term of office, the Government makes a desperate attempt to be seen to do something but in reality very little is being achieved. I would like to hear if I am wrong and that more specific measures of the outcome of the campaign will be put in place.

Mr. Ferris

I welcome the once-off capital grant of €889,000 for TG4. This is only right and proper, given the excellent service the channel provides for rural areas. As someone who comes from rural Ireland, I am very conscious of how widely watched it is. Its coverage of GAA club games demonstrates that, unlike RTE, it takes an interest in rural Ireland.

I agree with previous speakers on measuring the success of the Power of One campaign. While the objectives of the efficiency campaign are laudable and the campaign will go a long way towards meeting our general goals, we have no way of measuring whether they have been met or knowing whether the campaign is working. For example, what does the Minister mean by "targeting schools"? Education is one way to focus minds on energy saving; the matter should be included in the school curriculum if the campaign is to be successful.

The responsibilities of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and the Department of Education and Science intersect in this area. I listened recently to a programme as I travelled by car on ways to save energy in the home, for example, by reducing the volume of water one puts in an electric kettle. While every one of us has the opportunity to be far more efficient, there is a lack of knowledge and understanding on the issue, especially in working class areas where people have not had the opportunity to receive a full education. Would it not be advisable to include energy efficiency as a topic in the school curriculum if the desired effect is to be achieved?

Ms F. O’Malley

Deputy Broughan moved me with his poor mouth claim that while he was trying to do his bit, he could not afford to buy a hybrid car. I have three bicycles and would be prepared to give him one if he would use it to do his bit for the environment. He can take me up on the offer.

Chairman

We do not have arguments among members at this committee.

Ms F. O’Malley

I am offering him a bicycle.

Chairman

I am simply telling the Deputy that we are not having an argument.

Ms F. O’Malley

I cannot give him a hybrid car.

Chairman

I will take the bicycle.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

That is a donation to the Labour Party from the Government side.

Ms F. O’Malley

It has a crossbar and a big basket.

Chairman

I will come to collect the bicycle myself for the exercise.

Ms F. O’Malley

I compliment the Department on introducing the Power of One campaign. Last night I found myself looking at the website which illustrates practical measures such as the ones Deputy Eamon Ryan mentioned which we can adopt as individuals to reduce our carbon footprint. While I take the point that more detail on the cost of our lifestyle could be included, the website must be user-friendly. It is a great way to communicate with people other than by television. I have created a link to the site from my own website to make it more accessible.

I am concerned about the money given to TG4 — €889,000 — and what it means. It is a relatively modest sum. I find it extraordinary that the channel cannot find such a sum within its own resources to pay the debt. I am worried, therefore, that it might represent a new ministerial procedure. TG4 must be in a pretty dreadful state if it cannot afford to come up with the money. The easy thing to do is to turn to the Government which has plenty of money available to it but it begs the question of whether enough rigour has been applied to finding out if TG4 could have found the money.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Deputy O'Malley's leader says the Government does not need the money.

Ms F. O’Malley

He meant only that there was enough coming in in stamp duty. Money is available when a certain amount of rigour is applied, not when it is handed out willy-nilly when people believe they cannot meet debts from their own resources. I would like to hear more from the Minister of State on the necessity of providing the money for TG4.

I welcome the token subhead on energy efficiency measures and hope it will be very far from being a token measure by tomorrow. In one sense we are groping in the dark. I do not know how confident I can be that we will have significant new incentives such as those called for by Deputies Durkan and Eamon Ryan to reduce the consumption of energy and carbon emissions. I concur with my colleagues who mentioned the building regulations. We have missed an opportunity to stiffen them.

Mr. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Ms F. O’Malley

We must provide solid, decent housing for people who can then be expected to keep emissions down. We must help them to the extent that we can.

Mr. Browne

In passing, for the information of Deputy Durkan, the new broadcasting legislation will underpin RTE's independence. The legislation will be placed before the committee in January when I am sure members will have issues to discuss.

Mr. Durkan

We will.

Mr. Browne

The Deputy need not worry about the independence of RTE. A number of Deputies asked about funding for TG4. TG4 is financed by a combination of Exchequer funding and advertising revenue. The €2.5 million increase for next year will enable TG4 to run efficiently and to meet its commitments. Currently, TG4 employs 115 people and sustains more than 350 jobs in the independent production sector. It has grown its viewing share annually over several years. More than 800,000 viewers tune into TG4 each day and it is on target to meet its separation date. I understand the project management group will meet on 10 January 2007. I do not believe there are any major roadblocks that will prevent it commencing as an independent entity in 2007.

Deputy Fiona O'Malley asked about the proposed funding for TG4. Up to now TG4 has been run on a breakeven basis by RTE. However, it was always envisaged that the sum of €0.889 million would be repaid to RTE at some stage. Deputy Broughan and others also raised this matter. It is a tidying up exercise. We are allocating the money to TG4 on the basis that it be repaid to RTE. It is hoped that from now on no further Supplementary Estimates will be needed for TG4 to deal with issues such as this.

Deputy Broughan asked if other projects would be curtailed as a result of this. No projects will be curtailed to front TG4. The Commission for Energy Regulation grant has been fully paid up. There will be a major subhead for energy efficiency from 2007, an issue raised by Deputies Eamon Ryan and others. Energy efficiency, despite what the Deputies opposite might say, has been and is a priority for this Government. It is necessary that Ireland reduces its energy usage. The Power of One campaign seeks the necessary behavioural changes to meet the challenges set out in the Green Paper, Towards a Sustainable Energy Future for Ireland. This paper complements the energy efficiency action plan for Europe that sets out a comprehensive range of proposed policies and measures aimed at realising a 20% saving in energy consumption by 2020. Unlike some of the members' opposite, we do not believe this has been a waste of money. The campaign has made much progress to date. The joint launch ensured widespread coverage and the first television advertisement reached more than two million viewers at least once. The campaign has developed eight advertisements, each targeting eight different themes of energy efficiency. The regional roadshow is touring seven local centres, providing local broadcast and print media with material tailored to their audience.

Prior to commencement of its campaign, the advertising agency, Cawley Nea, for the Power of One campaign carried out of a survey of public awareness in regard to energy efficiency issues. It will also carry out six monthly surveys for the duration of the campaign. These will serve to measure the change in public awareness and attitude to energy efficiency. It is too early to measure the campaign thus far. However, it will be reviewed every six months.

Deputy Eamon Ryan also asked about energy efficiency. We are working with Eirgrid and Sustainable Energy Ireland to identify energy savings. Sustainable Energy Ireland is currently training and certifying energy auditors for operation in 2007.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

The energy auditors relate primarily to the green home scheme which has no connection with the energy efficiency scheme. It appears from the Minister's response that the only available measurement is the level of public awareness in regard to energy importance. The fact that electricity and gas prices increased by 20%-30% will guarantee that the public's awareness of the need for energy efficiency has increased. What we are not achieving, through this programme, is actual reductions on the ground. I do not believe the auditors referred to by the Minister have anything to do with the energy scheme.

Mr. Broughan

We will request that householders present Fianna Fáíl candidates with their gas bills during the next election campaign.

Chairman

Perhaps Mr. Putin and others in the Middle East should be shown them too.

Mr. Durkan

May I ask a supplementary question.

Chairman

I will come back to the Deputy.

Mr. Browne

Deputy Ferris asked about energy efficiency in schools. We are currently working with the green team to develop a schools website and materials for use within schools. We are working already on the suggestions raised by Deputy Ferris.

Although the 2006 allocation for Subhead J is €17.68 million, this includes a capital contingency fund of €6.94 million which was always intended to be used to meet needs in other areas as required. Of the remaining, €10.7 million, any savings that arise will be carried over for spending in 2007 in accordance with the multi-annual capital framework. A further €6.94 million will be included next year to address emergencies that may arise. That is from where the money is coming this year. It was not taken up as a contingency measure until now. I have decided to reallocate some €3 million to deal with energy efficiency issues.

Chairman

We will take a brief supplementary from Deputy Durkan.

Mr. Durkan

How much of the total budget for the Power of One campaign — I am a little slow on the uptake — is spent on advertising and on what type of advertising is it spent? How have we quantified the beneficial impact of this advertising? For instance, what has it done to reduce the consumption of energy or will it result in a reduction in the consumption of energy? I am all in favour of advertising though not necessarily giving jobs to advertisers because that increases rather than reduces energy.

The following point was raised by some of my colleagues. I am not so sure there is any incentivisation in this regard. The only incentive introduced by this Government, in a harsh and clumsy manner, resulted in clobbering the poor unfortunate consumer with massive increases in electricity and gas prices at a time when this cried out in the face of world opinion. Having repeatedly told us this was being done by an independent body, a couple of days before the election there was an ignominious climbdown by Government from its high pedestal. In the wake of the enormous amounts of money flowing from its coffers, the Government did not have the temerity to go before the public but chose to withdraw from the scene, albeit while the Minister was in Hanoi possibly on the tannoy in order to keep in touch with what was happening.

Chairman

Members must confine their remarks to the Subheads under discussion. Deputy Durkan had an opportunity to discuss these matters with the Regulator when he appeared before the committee recently. To allow the Minister of State time to digest and respond positively to Deputy Durkan's questions we will bank them.

Mr. Broughan

What action will Ireland take during 2007 in regard to the 75 actions across ten priority areas identified in the European Commission's Action Plan on Energy Efficiency? If we are to set out on that road, how will this be measured?

Deputy Fiona O'Malley made an interesting point in that it appears tomorrow the Government will take a green cloak about its shoulders in relation to many of these matters. She should be concerned with the rumours that there is a plan afoot to replace the Progressive Democrats with the Green Party.

Ms F. O’Malley

The Deputy should fight his own battles.

Mr. Broughan

It is to be expected. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, will have an opportunity tomorrow, if he so wishes, to answer Deputy Durkan's point on what is to be gained by this. What will be gained by those who choose to move to an alternative low carbon heating system? If the payback is going to materialise over so many years, where is the real incentive for people? I presume some of the incentives will emerge tomorrow.

Mr. Browne

In response to Deputy Durkan's query, the overall cost is €2.6 million. I will forward a breakdown of the way in which the money has been spent to the Deputy.

There will be heavy investment in 2007 in research, efficiency and conservation measures. We will have to wait until tomorrow to hear the full facts but those are the three main areas to be dealt with next year, a heavy investment in which will be announced in the next few days.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State for presenting the Supplementary Estimates and members for their contributions to the debate. The committee will meet next week to discuss another regulation. We will also have our annual fisheries debate with industry representatives next week. Is Dr. Beamish still working with the Department?

Mr. Browne

He is.

Chairman

We look forward to seeing him next week.

Mr. Browne

Thank you, Chairman, for facilitating us. I also thank Deputies from all sides for their questions and support in dealing with the Supplementary Estimates.