Gnáthamharc

Select Committee on Defence and National Security díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Jul 2025

Vote 36 - Defence (Revised)

No apologies have been received. The select committee is meeting to consider the 2025 Revised Estimates for Vote 35 - Army Pensions and Vote 36 - Defence. I welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs and defence, Deputy Thomas Byrne, Ms Aileen Nolan, assistant secretary, Mr. Tom Hussey, principal officer, and Mr. Jarlath Loftus, principal officer from the Department of Defence.

I will invite the Minister of State to make an opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a seven-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. I wish to advise members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams to confirm formally prior to making a contribution to the meeting that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Both members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory regarding an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that any such direction be complied with.

As witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting. I now invite the Minister of State to make his opening statement.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an Roghchoiste um Chosaint agus Slándáil Náisiúnta. Táim anseo den chéad uair mar Aire Stáit sa Roinn Cosanta. Gabhaim comhghairdeas leis an gCathaoirleach as a bheith ceaptha mar Chathaoirleach agus leis na baill eile as a bheith ceaptha as an gcoiste freisin. I look forward to our engagement in the times ahead. I am here on behalf of the Tánaiste, who cannot be here today.

I welcome the opportunity to engage with the Select Committee on Defence and National Security to consider the 2025 Revised Estimates for the defence Vote group. I wish to provide members of the committee with both the overall position, and to provide an update on some recent developments, within the defence sector.

Ar leibhéal straitéiseach, ar fhoilsiú an chreata straitéisigh nua – Óglaigh na hÉireann a Bhunathrú chun Feabhais – beidh tugtha le chéile in aon doiciméad amháin na bearta atá le déanamh le hÓglaigh na hÉireann a bhunathrú ina n-eagraíocht atá oiriúnach dá bhfeidhm, is é sin eagraíocht atá in ann an Stát a chosaint agus aghaidh a thabhairt ar na dúshláin slándála atá ann san am i láthair agus a bheidh ann san am atá le teacht. Is suntasach an maoiniú a bheidh ag teastáil le bunathrú straitéiseach den chineál seo a bhaint amach agus infheistíocht leanúnach a dhéanamh inár gcumas cosanta.

The Government is actively progressing the Commission on the Defence Forces commitment to increase defence funding to €1.5 billion, at 2022 prices, by 2028 through the annual Estimates process. The total allocation of €1.35 billion, provided for the defence Vote group for 2025, is welcome.

The allocation comprises €1.021 billion for Vote 36 – Defence and €329 million for Vote 35 - Army Pensions, an overall increase of €100 million on 2024. The allocation includes a capital allocation of €215 million. This level of capital funding, which builds on progress evident over recent years, will enable a sustained programme of equipment replacement and infrastructural development to progress over the coming years. In 2025, it will facilitate significant investment on major capital projects across a number of areas, including military transport aircraft, software-defined radio and subsea awareness domain capabilities. It will also facilitate further progress on a range of Defence Forces built infrastructure projects encompassing Army, Air Corps and Naval Service installations throughout the country.

The overall 2025 defence Vote 36 pay allocation of €569 million provides for the pay and allowances of Permanent Defence Force personnel, civilian employees and departmental civil servants. It also provides for paid training for members of the Reserve Defence Force.

This pay allocation includes funding towards the cost of pay increases, arising from national pay agreements, in 2025. The Government acknowledges ongoing staffing difficulties in the Defence Forces. However, it is positive to see the recruitment and retention measures that were implemented beginning to have an impact. These recruitment and retention measures include, but are not limited to: an increase in the maximum age of recruitment to 39 years old for general service recruits and 50 years old for direct entry specialists; an increase in the mandatory retirement age to 62 years; and the application of the working time directive across the Defence Forces. I understand that the application of the working time directive has been received very positively.

Members will also be aware that the Tánaiste got agreement for an extension of the Air Corps service commitment scheme to air traffic control personnel. I can confirm that the 2025 Permanent Defence Force pay allocation provides for a prevailing PDF strength of 7,600 and the recruitment of an additional net 400 PDF personnel in 2025.

Regarding Defence Forces pay, there has been notable progress made. New recruits now start on €41,465, upon completion of training, while school-leaver cadets start on €45,341 upon commissioning. The pay rate for a graduate entrant upon commissioning starts at €50,667.

The current expenditure non-pay allocation on the defence Vote has increased significantly by €30 million to €237 million. This expenditure goes towards essential and ongoing Defence Forces standing and operational costs, including utilities, fuel, catering, maintenance, information technology and training.

In an increasingly complex and challenging geopolitical and security context, I think it is important to acknowledge the diverse, multifaceted role that the Defence Forces play both in enhancing our national resilience capabilities and in contributing to international peace and security. Defences Forces personnel represent Ireland proudly, often in volatile situations, across the world.

I pay tribute to them and thank them for their valuable work. The 2025 allocation will enable our Defence Forces personnel to continue proudly representing Ireland globally.

As of this year, Ireland is contributing 437 personnel, to eight different missions throughout the world, along with a range of international organisations and national representations. They do not need me to say this, but Ireland’s peacekeeping efforts are highly respected. I reiterate my sincere thanks to the members of our Defence Forces for their ongoing overseas efforts in the face of escalating worldwide tensions, dangers and threats, particularly in the Middle East.

The family and friends of the late Private Seán Rooney, tragically killed on duty while serving in Lebanon in December 2022, remain very much in my thoughts and I reiterate the deepest sympathies of the Government to them on their profound loss. On a recent visit to Lebanon, the Tánaiste outlined the deep frustration felt by the people of Ireland at the lack of any urgent or concrete progress, on the related legal proceedings. The Taoiseach takes this very seriously. We need to see accountability by the perpetrators responsible for Private Rooney’s tragic death.

At home, the funding provision will facilitate the continued provision of a military operational response to help both the civil power and civil authorities, as required. Examples of the broad range and type of duties undertaken include explosive ordnance disposal duties, air ambulance duties and naval boardings. An allocation of €10 million is provided to support Civil Defence and Reserve Defence Force requirements. On behalf of the Government, I thank the members of the Reserve Defence Force and Civil Defence for their ongoing commitment and invaluable contribution. Their work is essential in making Ireland more resilient. Resilience is a word that we constantly hear at the European table at the moment.

The 2025 Army Pensions, Vote 35, allocation is €329 million, which is demand-led and non-discretionary. It will provide funding for up to 13,600 Army pensioners and certain dependants. Army pension numbers continue to rise year on year. The increased allocation provided in 2025 will address both the cost of existing and new pensions as well as the benefit to pensions of increases awarded under the public service agreement. Due to the timelines involved concerning the formation of the Government and associated committees in 2025, the Department has, as facilitated under public financial procedures, spent a significant proportion of the overall Defence Vote group allocation already. The overall spend by the end of May was more than €495 million. This is slightly behind profile, but the current expectations are that 2025 expenditure will align closely with the Estimate provision as the year progresses.

Anois agus athrú agus athchóiriú suntasach ag titim amach sa réimse cosanta, táim sásta go gcuirfidh an maoiniú a leithdháileadh i gcáinaisnéis 2025 ar chumas Óglaigh na hÉireann a gcuid príomhfhreagrachtaí anseo sa bhaile agus ar fud an domhain a chomhlíonadh go héifeachtach. Feabhsófar ár gcumas slándála náisiúnta agus idirnáisiúnta dá bharr agus éascófar dul chun cinn ar bhunathrú Óglaigh na hÉireann ó thaobh struchtúir agus cultúir de i gcomhréir le moltaí an Choimisiúin um Óglaigh na hÉireann.

I commend both the Defence and Army Pensions Estimates to the committee. I am happy to engage with the committee insofar as we can.

I thank the Minister of State. We will set the clock at seven minutes as normal. Our first member to contribute is Deputy Brian Stanley.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials to the committee. I thank him for his presentation on the Revised Estimates.

We can see the delay in the formation of the Government would have been the problem with the Estimates. However, there is a large gap in what was budgeted for and what is now required. I note that. I welcome the progress and note the terms and conditions for the Defence Forces. I acknowledge the extension of the retirement age to 62, the increased recruitment age of 50, the working time directive and the other measures that have been brought in. The feedback on these measures is good. I have a few questions.

On the Government's commitment to improve the Defence Forces, while I have a minute, I wish to acknowledge the improvements for the Civil Defence. A lot of its equipment was outdated. We have seen it on the ground in recent years. The Civil Defence in Laois is well equipped now with very modern equipment, and rightly so. Between the Department and the local council, the Civil Defence in Laois has been resourced.

On the Air Corps and the Naval Service, how many ships are at sea at the moment? My understanding is that there are six naval ships and one or two are generally at sea. What are the prospects of having further ships at sea? I raise this in the context of Ireland's large territorial waters. I know there has been recent recruitment and recruits have passed out.

The Minister of State also mentioned paid training for members of the Reserve Defence Force. Is that for when they go on a fortnight's training? What does it mean? What does it look like?

The Minister of State mentioned that there are an additional 400 personnel in the Permanent Defence Force. That is very welcome. With retirements, does that bring the total personnel to 8,000? There are 7,600 personnel as it stands and 400 are coming in. Are retirements included in these figures? At year end, is it projected that we will have 8,000 personnel? The overall number needs to increase.

The Minister of State will forgive me for bringing up associated issues, but while he is before the committee, I will take the liberty of asking. On Army pensions, there are 13,600 Army pensioners. What are the projections for that figure increasing or decreasing in the next five, six or seven years? I am sure his officials have looked at that and have tried to project what is likely to happen with that.

Overall, I welcome the progress that has been made. I note the progress of the Reserve Defence Force and Civil Defence. It is important that we keep them well resourced. In years gone by, an Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, FCA, was not well resourced at times and was often seen as the poor relation. It is important. I understand the Reserve Defence Force has approximately 900 or 950 personnel at the moment. Is the plan to increase that to increase those numbers? If we are increasing the Permanent Defence Force, it is important that we increase the number of the Reserve Defence Force as well.

The Minister of State has two and a half minutes to answer all of those questions.

I thank Deputy Stanley. I will answer his question on the FCA first because my father was a proud member of the FCA. We are very grateful to the veterans who participated at his funeral at the time. He was very proud to do so. I think Deputy Stanley acknowledged how important the Reserve Defence Force is. The total personnel of the Army Reserve and Naval Service Reserve at the end of April was 1,618. The first-line Reserve has 173 personnel. Those are the figures, just to get that out of the way.

There are 13,600 Army pensioners. They are projected to grow, but not massively.

On the Civil Defence, I am in the same position in Meath. We have absolutely wonderful facilities there. Local authorities are actually responsible for providing accommodation for the Civil Defence units, but the Department of Defence provides support for the fit-out and refurbishment of buildings. We have seen, in 2025, a new Civil Defence building opened in Roscommon, we are seeing a refurbishment under way in Offaly, next door to the Deputy, while Longford and Kildare are in planning. The Department of Defence, to be fair to local authorities, is working with another five or six local authorities with regard to Civil Defence accommodation. That is really important.

I will give the Deputy an exact answer on the number of ships at sea. The Naval Service has a fleet of eight commissioned vessels. These eight vessels consist of two P50 class large patrol vessels, four P60 class offshore patrol vessels and two P70 inshore patrol vessels.

The military authorities have advised us that three of the P60 offshore patrol vessels are currently available for operations and conduct patrols on a rotation basis. The fourth P60 is currently undergoing a planned maintenance period. The LÉ Aoibhinn P71 is fully operational and is regularly deployed within territorial waters in the exclusive economic zone. That ship does really good work. The learnings in terms of bringing LÉ Aoibhinn up to full operational capability have been useful in trying to ensure the LÉ Gobnait is brought to full operational service as soon as possible. Clearly, we need significantly more investment in our Defence Forces. I say quite openly that we are coming from a low base. We have seen increases in the numbers, particularly on the naval side. That will continue and we look forward to further investment.

It was suggested that there is a large gap between what we need and what we have now. In terms of the budget this year there is no gap. We have budgeted for what is set out and the money is there and available for that. In broader terms it is right to say there is a plan for significantly more defence expenditure over the next few years. That is nothing to do with what we are hearing from around the world, although the threat perception does impact on it. Rather it is coming from the Commission of the Defence Forces. We want to make sure that as an independent sovereign country, we can defend ourselves and our military people have the equipment they need to defend us. Work is going on to making sure we can reach level of ambition 2 and thereby ensure we have the layers and the foundations in place for well-equipped Defence Forces. We can then move beyond that. I foresee continuous significant investment in our Defence Forces. I see that as absolutely essential for a modern independent country. If the Europeans were not doing what they are doing, we would still be doing it. We would still have to do it because the resources are not-----

Okay, the time is up.

I did not mean to run out of time; my apologies.

A couple more of those questions might be answered. I want to give everybody a fair chance in case a vote is called, so seven minutes is a maximum for the questions and the answers, not a target.

I will be as efficient as I can. I discussed the Air Corps and the extension of the service commitment scheme with the Minister in May. This relates to an issue that arose very particularly in relation to Baldonnel. When is it expected that Air Corps operations at Baldonnel will return to a 24-7 situation? Is a service commitment scheme extension being considered for other ranks? There are other forms of specialist personnel - artillery services is one obvious category - where there is a shortage at this moment in time.

I had an exchange with the Tánaiste regarding the establishment of a cybersecurity command. The Tánaiste said that a cybersecurity command had been established, though at the time in May, the most recent report was that it was to be established. I wish to clarify whether the command is now in fact in place because there seems to be some confusion in relation to that. From a staffing point of view, 19 staff have been added so far but even under level of ambition 2 we are talking about 100 and then 200 or 300 beyond that. That is going to take time, obviously. Can I have a comment on the timescale in that regard?

My next question is similar to one asked by Deputy Stanley. I am asking not about how many ships the Naval Service has but about how many ships it is capable of putting to sea at the same time. I understand the figure is two at this time. Perhaps the Minister of State can clarify that. On a more general issue, the development of a full radar picture was a big ambition and a vitally important part of the proposals made by the Commission on the Defence Forces. That is going to be established incrementally. What is the timescale on that? When is it likely we will get the number of Permanent Defence Force members back up to level of ambition 1 and then beyond that to level of ambition 2?

In regard to service level capability, the Deputy is correct in that we have a limited capability and two ships probably is the answer. We are clearly coming from a low base. We are quite open about that. For any of the items the Deputy mentioned I assume there is broad political agreement that we need to do this and to equip our military. There are some people - I do not see them in the room - who would even question whether we should be doing that. What the Deputy has outlined is exactly the type of thing we need to do when we are talking about increasing military spending. We need to get serious about it. The Government is serious about it. An example of that relates to radar, which is really important. We do not have visibility for that. We need to get it. The Department has engaged with a wide range of countries, including every EU member state. Based on what they have come back with, we are looking at the options for delivery in more detail with a certain number of countries. That is obviously being done in accordance with the various procurement rules that apply in the defence space. This stage of the process will conclude this year. We are trying to expedite and prioritise it. It is complex to do. We expect that implementation will start next year and will be fully delivered by the end of 2028. That is the exact position but obviously it is extremely urgent that we do this. The Government is taking it-----

Without wanting to simplify, would it be fair to say that we are at a procurement stage?

Without wanting to oversimplify it, we are at a procurement stage.

We are, absolutely. We are out in the market exploring the options for delivery in more detail. The Department of Defence has gone to a wide range of countries, including all EU member states, to look at what the options are and what they would have available. The Department is now looking at the responses received to see what we can do in terms of delivery and what countries we can work with. We are looking at it in more detail in terms of the delivery of this project. It is part of the procurement. There are EU rules on defence procurement. It is being done in accordance with those procedures. That is under way at the moment. We expect this part of the process will conclude this year. That work is very much under way at the moment.

The Deputy spoke about personnel. The ambition is to increase the numbers again this year. We encourage people. I have set out the starting salaries, which are pretty good. There has been huge change. There has been a change in atmosphere as well. Modernisation is going on. There are huge opportunities for members of the Defence Forces to do well. The ambition is to increase numbers this year. We all have an opportunity as public representatives to encourage people to join the Defence Forces and to get the information out there. The Department has been advertising heavily. We have seen new recruits coming in. Deputy Stanley outlined some of the measures we have brought in. That includes issues around maximum ages of recruitment, mandatory retirement ages, the various allowances and the working time directive, which is very important. Significant progress has been made on pay as well. Those measures are there to bring the numbers up. The numbers are not where we want them to be but we did see a level of stability this year compared to the last number of years.

Cybersecurity is a massive issue. If we are talking about the Defence Forces, it is obviously a topic here. This is part of protecting the country. This is part of the defence of the country. The response to cyberthreats is a whole-of-government challenge. The Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration takes the lead role through the National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC, with inputs from An Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces and the National Security Analysis Centre. The Defence Forces have established a new cyber command. The function of the command is to conduct the full spectrum of operations to defend robustly against cyberthreats, to support the Defence Forces' operations at home and overseas and to enhance our national cyberdefence resilience and contingency capabilities. A Defence Forces cyberdefence strategy was published last year. There are 19 Defence Forces specialist posts approved to kickstart the operation of the unit, which is headed up by an officer at general rank. The Department is engaging with the Public Appointments Service to get ten more civilian cybersecurity specialists who would be embedded in the unit and would bring expertise to it. A lot has happened on that and there is a lot to do.

On the Deputy's question about the air traffic controllers' service commitment scheme extension, I think the answer is "No". It is not currently being proposed to extend this to other ranks. At the moment it is pilots and air traffic controllers. That is not currently proposed to be extended. I think that was the question.

I apologise to the Cathaoirleach, to the Minister of State and to his team as I will have to depart. I have a conflicting committee on foreign affairs and I will have to go to that. Before I do, there was also another question. When are we going to go back 24-7 operations at the Baldonnel base?

Work is ongoing in relation to personnel. Personnel have until 11 July to apply. Until that process finishes we will have to wait and see.

Is there no specific timeline operationally?

We want to make sure that we have the people to do it. That is the answer. We will not know that until after 11 July.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as teacht isteach anseo agus an cur i láthair a dhéanamh. Tugann sé muinín dom éisteacht leis an méid atá ráite aige maidir leis an mbunús airgeadais atá ag dul don Roinn, Air Corps, Arm agus an tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh.

In his presentation the Minister of State thanked Defence Forces personnel who proudly represent Ireland, often in volatile situations across the world. The Minister of State paid tribute to them and thanked them for their valuable work. I believe all members of this committee would echo the Minister of State's sentiments there. Since I have become a member of this committee, and in listening to various witnesses particularly some of the senior retired service personnel who have been involved in UN missions and representing Ireland at the UN, the strong sense of the respect in which Ireland is held abroad comes across strongly.

I thank the Minister of State for his honest assessment that we are coming from a low base. If we can increase that base we can certainly improve our international reputation by further investment in that.

I must also take the opportunity to congratulate the Naval Service on the significant role they played in the drug seizure in Cork yesterday. It just shows the day-to-day importance of our Defence Forces even within our own jurisdiction as opposed to on an international basis.

I have a number of questions. The Minister of State said that the Government is progressing the Commission on the Defence Forces commitment to increase defence funding to €1.5 billion. The Minister of State stated "The Government is actively progressing the Commission on the Defence Forces commitment to increase defence funding to €1.5 billion, at 2022 prices, by 2028 through the annual Estimates process." Would this not lead to a significant shortfall, taking into account the inflationary environment we are in at the moment? Would it perhaps lead to a potential shortfall in the ambition?

No, because that would take account of inflation. It is the €1.5 billion as it was in 2022, so whatever that is in 2028 is what we would be spending. I believe we expect that would be around €1.8 billion by 2028. It is inflation adjusted in terms of the targets yes.

Very good. Some Deputies mentioned the pensions. I know that the post-2013 pensions have become a source of controversy and this is one of the aspects the Chief of Staff mentioned to us. He agreed with me when I asked him if it was an obstacle to recruitment and retention. It is also an issue with An Garda Síochána on the justice committee. The Garda Representative Association came in and said the same thing and would agree. I am aware that SIPTU, which represents the Dublin Fire Brigade would say the same. The Irish Prison Service and other services are also in similar situations. Perhaps the Minister of State will comment on that.

The issues on the post-2013 and pre-2013 public service pension arrangements apply generally across the Civil Service. Obviously there is a specific retirement age here in the Defence Forces. I have to say that I do not totally agree that this is a block on recruitment. Given the ages of the people who are generally recruited into any kind of job, in my personal experience, pensions are the last thing on your mind when you are in your 20s or at a young age. We really should be expanding upon the opportunities that are there, the salaries that are there, and the opportunity to represent your country, as Deputy Brabazon referred to, and to do fantastic work such as the Naval Service did this week. It is a tremendous opportunity for anyone. These pension rules apply generally across the public sector, and the retirement age is just one particular issue here. This is really something that the Department of public expenditure insists on. To anybody considering a career in the Defence Forces, I would say it is a marvellous career and is a huge opportunity for him or her. I would say it is a time of change, of progress, of advancement and of modernisation and that now is the time to come and to join and to have a fabulous career serving one's country. There is nothing more important and we all know that around this table. We all serve our country as public servants or elected representatives in various forms. It is a wonderful thing to do. The members of the Defence Forces do that in a very special way. Finally now we are in the situation where we can give them a pathway. We can say that the starting salary is very competitive, the recruit can get a training that is second to none, and there are wonderful opportunities across the world to do good work. The Irish State's international policy is founded on peace and friendly co-operation between the nations and respect for international law. What we do is good. We act in accordance the UN Charter. Our soldiers are not sent to war in the same way that other countries do. Our soldiers are there doing good work. I believe that Colm Doyle was in before the joint committee yesterday. That man went to school with my father. We all of a certain age will remember him on the television in the 1990s as a UN spokesperson. We are incredibly proud of the work he did, and the work of many others as well. I would tell any young people who want to join the Defence Forces to look at what some of these people have achieved. There are so many more opportunities for us to do that. While not all aspects of defence policy will be supported across the political divide, young people are coming in now at a time when the investment seems to be supported across the political divide for providing basic and proper suitable equipment to our soldiers, sailors and Air Corps members. There seems to be political agreement on that. We should be very enthusiastic about that. I am sorry for speaking so long and taking the Deputy's time.

It is fine. I thank the Minister of State for that. I have one further question, if I am interpreting it correctly, with regard to page No. 7 of the 2024 financial overview and the appropriations-in-aid. I do not understand what they are. They appear to be at a variance of minus €8 million. Perhaps the Minister of State will shed some light on that.

Appropriations-in-aid, if I can explain it properly, is basically money that comes into the Department other than through general taxation or through the Exchequer. There could be money coming in from the UN. The UN would give certain moneys to the Department in respect of the work that it does. There could be funds from equipment sales, land sales, rentals or Central Bank money. There is a whole list and I can go through the list here. The UN overseas allowances are the biggest one. The EU gives us some money as well. Occasionally there are sales of premises or surplus stores. There is the money given from the Dormant Accounts Fund as well, which I believe goes to Civil Defence and the veterans. These are all other sources of income and are, essentially, appropriations-in-aid. In different years they may vary and there might be particular amounts due in certain years. The €8 million is an excess and if we do not spend that it has to be given to the general Exchequer in the Department of public expenditure.

I thank the Minister of State.

I thank the Minister of State for coming in to us this evening. I thank him for his opening statement and for being here to answer the questions we might have. I am delighted to see the increase in budget spending for our military. My question pertains to something that has been mentioned several times. There seems to be a focus on military spending for equipment and a great desire for ensuring that there is proper investment for equipment. It was mentioned several times as the Minister of State has been answering questions for other members. While I acknowledge there is a drive for recruitment and retention, I do not get the sense there is the same feeling for investing in our personnel. I will start at the beginning. In particular I have questions on recruitment.

I know the Minister of State mentioned that new recruits now start on €41,465 after they have done their three-star training, maybe after six months, while school leaver cadets start at €45,000, but that is upon commissioning. In the Army, it takes cadets about 18 months to get to that stage. When they start, they start at about €25,000. They might be up to €28,000 for the second level. In the Air Corps and Naval Service, it can take closer to two years for them to be commissioned and to get to that rate of €45,000. My understanding is that a business case was put forward by the deputy chief of staff, asking for an increase in cadet wages for that specific purpose at some time last year. Has any more thought been given to that? It seems unfair that recruit soldiers who complete their military and tactical training up to the level of a 3 star private are paid one rate, while cadets do the same but are not being remunerated in the same way.

For serving members, I note the Minister of State mentioned the service commitment scheme. My understanding is that it has not been decided what the full cost of air traffic control will be. Have we a budget for that yet? Deputy Ó Laoghaire mentioned the service commitment scheme too. In keeping with my desire to see the Department of Defence put as much financial investment into our troops as our equipment, there should be a strong desire, in order to retain our members, to expand the service commitment scheme for our specific technical staff. In the Air Corps, we have aeronautical engineers and aircraft maintenance technical staff. In the Naval Service, we have engine room artificers. It would be really important and a good sign to see that service commitment. As the Minister of State mentioned, the training people receive in the Defence Forces is second to none. I know myself. I left the Defence Forces and could go to any country and, the moment I said I was trained in Baldonnel, I could get work with any airline, because we are recognised worldwide for the great training that we have received.

It is really important that there is a strong focus in the Department of Defence, when it comes to budget spending, on not just investing in our equipment, because we have seen it in the Air Corps. We can have aircraft and they are in the hangar, but unless we have air traffic controllers and maintenance staff, the aircraft are staying on the ground and in the hangar. That is very important.

The other side of our personnel is veterans. The programme for Government contains a commitment to establish a veteran affairs office. Has that been budgeted for? Are we any closer to that? That would be a great support to our veterans in understanding our pensions and pension abatements. That would be really important and would signal the Government and Department's strong investment in our personnel, because without our personnel, we are at nothing.

I spoke passionately and at length in my last contribution about the attractions of this job. Yes, school leaver pay is after a period, but school leavers are 18 or 19 years of age and I still say that the pay is very good and the opportunities are fantastic. I thought it was a given when I spoke about this at length, about needing more people in, encouraging young people to join, and sharing the joy of trying to encourage people to join our Defence Forces is something that we all do. I know the Deputy does that too. To be specific about the figures, in 2025, pay is 56% of the budget, which is significant. I acknowledge that we are coming from a low base with regard to equipment but also with regard to the numbers, which I am the first to acknowledge. I am really passionate about trying to encourage people to join the Defence Forces.

I am sorry for interrupting the Minister of State but my point is that school leavers are joining as recruits and going up to €41,000 after six months. The equivalent 17-, 18- and 19-year-olds join an Army, Air Corps or Naval Service cadetship, and after six months, they are on €25,000. That is not equitable in my view, and that is my question.

There are also opportunities to go to college, which is paid for. There are substantial opportunities and there has been much discussion and negotiation of this. The public sector pay agreement applies too. There are also duty allowances for members of the Defence Forces generally. The specific issue of the service commitment scheme and whether it would be extended is a matter for local bargaining. There is no proposal on that at the moment.

We spoke to the Secretary General when she was here. Local bargaining is a maximum of 3% over two years. My understanding is that the business case that was brought from the deputy chief of staff is requesting a 40% increase in cadet pay.

That is the position as it stands at the moment. The commitment on the veterans office is being progressed and it is intended to establish this office as soon as possible because it is important.

I know I said cadet pay. I meant our service agreement. The service agreement for technical staff will not be covered by 3%. It needs more than that. It needs a higher injection.

I am sure the Tánaiste will listen to the Deputy's pleas on that. By any standard, the salaries for cadets are competitive. There is scope within the local agreements to do something on this and to improve the situation.

I agree to a great extent with the Minister of State. I just want to try to ensure that we are not facing the same difficulty with our technical staff that we currently face with our air traffic controllers and that we try to hold on to those great people who, as the Minister of State said, are so well trained and give such service to our country. I would like them to feel as valued as they are.

I appreciate that.

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for an informative presentation here this evening. Many issues have been raised. I want to comment on the three witnesses who we had here the other day. Between them, they had 120 years of service in the Defence Forces. You could feel the pride that they had. I am taking this up as the Minister of State raised the topic of the Army and the people in it. Some 99% of them are there as a career and to do the best they can, particularly the peacekeepers, who are sometimes in very difficult situations. Sometimes their jobs are not that safe, as we saw recently with the young man being shot dead. We should recognise at every opportunity the work they are doing.

A recruitment drive is on at the moment. The Minister of State mentioned 400 new recruits. Is it advertised? Is it public knowledge that people can apply for the Army? We hear people ask us as politicians from time to time what is happening with the Army, and sometimes we do not know, quite honestly.

I welcome the extra funding for Civil Defence because it does great work in its localities. It should be recognised.

The three main reasons that people went into the FCA years ago, in the early sixties, were the boots, the coat and two weeks in Finner Camp, if you were lucky. You got £300 at that time. That was in the early sixties. I thank the Minister of State for his presentation.

I thank Deputy Scanlon. I saw some of the media reports. I did not see the committee. The experience of some of our retired and current members of the Defence Forces is fantastic. I recently went to Rome and visited Operation IRINI. What an incredible mission. It enforces the Libyan arms embargo but it does incredible humanitarian work, rescuing migrants and preventing weapons from coming into the European Union illegally from Africa. It is incredible work. I was so proud to meet the people there. Our people are working with the best and the brightest of all the European Union member states. It is incredible work and we want it to continue. It was only continued by the Security Council for six months when its mandate was recently renewed. I am sure the committee does not want me to get into those issues at the moment. It has other fish to fry, but that is a fact.

The committee has heard media reports about other operations as well. These are doing incredible work, and there is a huge opportunity for that to continue.

This year, €3.2 million has been spent on advertising for recruitment. If any members have any queries, they should come to me or the Tánaiste and ask for information and we will send it on to them immediately. If any constituents get onto them about wanting to join the Defence Forces, we will certainly help with that. A lot of money is being spent on recruitment. It has to happen. We need it. We want to get those numbers up and get more people in because there is work to be done. This is essential. Having an army to protect oneself is the main difference between being an independent country and not being an independent country. That is why we need to have huge national pride in it, and that means investing in the Defence Forces - in personnel and equipment.

I thank the Minister of State for attending. I apologise for just getting here.

I will first comment on Deputy Scanlon’s contribution. When I joined the Defence Forces as one of the first women to join the Reserve, it was the FCA, and I remember all those jokes being made at the time. It is also one of the reasons I am interested in veterans, and the Minister of State mentioned his commitment to that. Being a little bit of one myself, I would love to see that in operation. There is a huge opportunity to tap into all of those who have served who are out there, who could contribute in many different ways. The Minister of State said he is committed to it, but is there a budget for it within the Estimates?

It is question of allocating the staff with the Department who are there already. I think we can do that. It is a commitment, we will do it and it can be done within the Department. There already is a huge amount of liaising with veteran groups. We all do that as Oireachtas Members too. This will operate within the Department. It needs to happen. It needs staff to be allocated to it, but not necessarily in terms of huge new budgets. We need more civil servants in the Department overall because of the extra responsibilities the Department of Defence will now be carrying out with regard to hopefully more people but certainly more equipment. There is much work to do to implement programme for Government commitments, and one of them is opening the veterans’ affairs office. I think we can do that, building on the work that has already been done in terms of existing support services. Make no mistake, but there is a programme for Government commitment on it. It will be implemented and we will open the veterans' office in the Department.

With regard to all these Estimates, does the Minister of State expect that will happen within the next 12 months, or the first steps towards it?

The target is quarter 2 of next year, just to be clear about that. That is a commitment. It will happen and it will be welcomed by the veterans, veterans' associations and society in general. Incredible work is being done and there is huge scope for further interaction between the Government and the veterans and their representatives.

We are efficient, so we have a bit of time left. I was keen to allow everybody to get one round. The question of the veterans' office is important. The Minister of State said quarter 2 of next year. I urge that to be done quicker. It is a whole year. If we already have the Department and it is a reconfiguration, notwithstanding that more people may be needed in the Department, it is hugely important to do that. It can alleviate a lot of unnecessary anxiety and provide supports that are needed. The Minister of State will admit himself that the legacy in the Defence Forces has been of people being underpaid or working in conditions that were not always what they should have been, so I encourage that.

Regarding the procurement rules, do the procurement rules preclude any sources or countries? How is it? How is the procurement process handled?

I cannot say I am an expert in procurement. As the Chair knows, politicians do not get directly involved in purchasing equipment. It depends on the specific items, and there are EU rules. For radar, we went to every single EU country, plus a number of other countries as well, just to see what was available on the market, for example.

We would not be considering countries that are currently at war.

I am not aware of it. In fact, I just mentioned Operation IRINI, where our people are preventing illegal weapons coming into the European Union, for example. What we need to do, though, is to some extent build up an industry in Ireland that can supply more equipment to the Irish Defence Forces. That would be an important part of the work of the Department and the work of the Government over the coming years, and to ensure that companies in Ireland can avail of increased spending within the European Union as well.

As the Minister of State said, he has cross-party support for supporting the Defence Forces and what needs to be done in addressing the shortages there both in terms of personnel and-----

I take on board the Chair’s point about the veterans' office, and I will relay that to the Tánaiste.

Thank you. The target for the Permanent Defence Force strength has decreased from 8,100 last year to 8,000 in 2025. Does this lower target reflect a lack of ambition to solve the problems? Even if the 8,000 figure is achieved in 2025, it will fall very short of the current agreed establishment of the PDF strength of 9,739 personnel.

That is not really a target. The numbers were going down overall. We want recruitment to go up. It is a budgetary allocation more than a target. At the start of the year, the Department asks what we expect to get. We might want more, but realistically what are we expected to get? It is essentially a money question more than anything else. That is what happened there. The number we are actually at is 7,600. We were hoping for a net 400. It is not a target but a budgetary allocation. It is a cheque from the Department of public expenditure to cover the costs we expect to incur. If we got more people in, we would be back to the committee looking for a Supplementary Estimate. It is a simple as that.

It depends on the success of the recruitment.

The officials have to work out how much money is required to run the Department. It is not a question of what we want. It is a question of what is going to be there. We do not want to come back to this committee next year saying that we did not spend all the money we got. If more people come in, I do not think it would be a difficult ask to come to this committee to seek a Supplementary Estimate. That is what the plan would be. These are financial allocations rather than targets.

The Department of Defence is unique in having the dedicated Vote 35 for the superannuation and related payments. Will the Minister of State elaborate on the reasons for that? Has he given consideration to consolidating Votes 35 and 36 to have a cohesive defence budget?

I think it is just the way it has always been. I am not sure what the procedures are if we were to decide to change that. We can certainly take on board what the Chair is saying if the committee thinks that is an issue. We can see what is possible. I just cannot give the Chair an answer straight away on that.

Others might comment on whether that is pertinent. People here have more experience than I would of being in the Defence Forces.

With regard to the different things the Minister of State has to aid recruitment, are any specific measures being taken to encourage more women into the Defence Forces? Does the Minister of State believe more can be done in that area?

It is very important. We know why we do not have enough - at certain points in history, it was not a safe place. The Defence Forces have established a female-specific recruitment team that co-ordinates attendance at cross-service female-specific recruitment teams at national and regional level. Male and female representation is present at all recruitment events, and gender perspective-----

I am conscious a vote has been called.

Does the Chair want me to just go through this and finalise this answer?

Yes. How long is the vote? I did not see it. Have we got a few minutes?

It just started.

It has just started. Perhaps the Minister of State can complete the answer.

It is very important. A number of videos have been distributed across social media platforms demonstrating what to expect, for example, on induction day, with an emphasis on female participation. Fitness test requirements have been tailored for female candidates. The joint recruitment office is also actively reaching out to women in the recruitment pipeline to support them through the application process. There is a Defence Forces women’s network as well, aiming to increase participation of women.

Gender diversity and unconscious bias training is also taking place. This is really important. I cannot emphasise that enough.

I thank the Minister of State for that. Maybe he can submit that information to the committee for the benefit of those members who are not here on what is being done and what more he can see being done.

I wish to make one tiny comment for the record. Perhaps I misheard, but the Minister of State said the reason women did not join was because the Defence Forces was not a safe place for women. For the record, I served my time in the Defence Forces and it was a very safe place for me as a woman. My fellow male colleagues had the greatest of respect for a lot of the women. Like every workplace, it is not perfect. I wish to put that on the record. As the Minister of State said, a lot of good people work in the Defence Forces.

I thank Deputy Callaghan. If no one further wishes to speak, I will wrap this session up. On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, and the officials for their time this evening and for the material which was circulated to the committee in advance of the meeting. As we have now completed our consideration of the Revised Estimates for Vote 35 - Army Pensions, and Vote 36 - Defence, the clerk will send a message to that effect to the Clerk of the Dáil. The meeting now stands adjourned until Thursday, 3 July 2025 at 9.30 when the joint committee will meet in public session to continue its pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the defence (amendment) Bill 2025.

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